Difference between revisions of "Dungeons & Dragons 4th Edition"

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Character races in the Eberron Player's Guide are:
Character races in the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide are:

Revision as of 20:55, 27 May 2010



The fourth edition of Dungeons & Dragons, the newest and the most controversial edition of the system.


Nearly every roll consists of making a single D20 roll, plus a modifier, against a target number. Saving throws have been replaced with Defenses that work like AC; the term 'Saving Throw' is now used to refer to a 50/50 roll every turn to recover from a durational effect.

Character Generation

Chargen is simplified compared to 3rd Edition (although still time consuming). Skills are all-or-nothing, you either have training in them or you don't. Each character gains a selection of Powers which can be used at will, once per encounter, or once per day, in ascending order of power. These abilities often consist of an attack plus some special effect, such as knocking someone prone, setting them on fire, or moving yourself or your opponent. There are also five possible alignments, none of which have much effect on gameplay any more: Lawful Good, Good, Unaligned, Evil and Chaotic Evil.


The character races in the PHB are:

In addition to the races in the PHB, the following player races are in the MM and other sourcebooks: (all of them are "LA +0", to put things in 3.5 parlance):

Character races in the PHB 2 are:

Character races in the PHB 3 are:

Character races in the Eberron Player's Guide are:

Character races in the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide are:


Character classes in the first PHB consist of:

4e Classes table
  Leader Defender Striker Controller
Martial Warlord Fighter Ranger
Divine Cleric
Paladin Avenger Invoker
Arcane Bard
Swordmage Warlock
Primal Shaman Warden Barbarian Druid
Psionic Ardent Battlemind Monk Psion
Shadow Assassin
  • Cleric (Role: Leader, Power Source: Divine)
  • Fighter (Role: Defender, Power Source: Martial)
  • Paladin (Role: Defender, Power Source: Divine)
  • Ranger (Role: Striker, Power Source: Martial)
  • Rogue (Role: Striker, Power Source: Martial)
  • Warlock (Role: Striker, Power Source: Arcane)
  • Warlord (Role: Leader, Power Source: Martial)
  • Wizard (Role: Controller, Power Source: Arcane)

Classes from the second PHB are:

  • Avenger (Role: Striker, Power Source: Divine)
  • Barbarian (Role: Striker, Power Source: Primal)
  • Bard (Role: Leader, Power Source: Arcane)
  • Druid (Role: Controller, Power Source: Primal)
  • Invoker (Role: Controller, Power Source: Divine)
  • Shaman (Role: Leader, Power Source: Primal)
  • Sorcerer (Role: Striker, Power Source: Arcane)
  • Warden (Role: Defender, Power Source: Primal)

Classes added in the third PHB are:

  • Ardent (Role: Leader, ower Source: Psionic)
  • Battlemind (Role: Defender, Power Source: Psionic)
  • Monk (Role: Striker, Power Source: Psionic)
  • Psion (Role: Controller, Power Source: Psionic)
  • Runepriest (Role: Leader, Power Source: Divine)
  • Seeker (Role: Controller, Power Source: Primal)

Classes in other books include:

  • Artificer (Role: Leader, Power Source: Arcane) from the Eberron campaign guide
  • Swordmage (Role: Defender, Power Source: Arcane) from the Forgotten Realms campaign guide
  • Assassin (Role: Striker, Power Source: Shadow) available only to D&D Insider subscribers


Gameplay is divided into encounters. The GM selects monsters and traps up to a total experience value as recommended for the size of the party, and the encounter plays out as a tactical miniatures game. Non-combat encounters consist of "skill challenges", where skill checks (sometimes of multiple types) are made in sequence. XP is awarded for non-combat challenges and quests, as well as for combat encounters.

Each character can take one standard action (such as an attack), one move action, one minor action, and any number of free actions per turn. Each character also gets one immediate interrupt or immediate reaction per round, which may be used outside of the regular turn order. Generally each character will use their standard action to make use of an attack power. Characters are highly specialized as noted above, and fit into combat roles of controller (status effect and mass-attack focused), defender (durability and counter-attack focused), leader (buffing and healing focused), and striker (single target damage focused).

Characters level up from level 1 to 30; with the scope of the game changing every ten levels. At level 30 characters are expected to undergo some form of apotheosis.


The setting of 4e is highly generic and designed to give the DM a relatively blank canvas to paint on. This default setting consists of a wild medieval landscape in which isolated human and demihuman communities ('Points of Light') struggle to survive after the fall of a greater empire. This provides an explanation for the large areas of wilderness and many ruins for monsters to hide in, and the need for adventurers as opposed to more regulated militias. Which doesn't make any Goddamn sense, but okay.

The Planescape cosmology, present in 2e and 3e, has been removed, and a much vaguer "Astral Sea" cosmology has been put in its place.

The DMG contains an extensive section explaining the tropes of the setting and how they might be used, and also suggesting ways in which the DM can deviate from them to make the setting his own.

D&D 4e on /tg/

The reaction of some fans.

Since its announcement 4e has been a source of controversy and trolling on /tg/. Its supporters consider it to have made D&D simple and fun. Its critics have numerous objections to the system and setting, often referring to it as 'shit twinkie' (with the implication that they had been expecting a certain type of D&D goodness and sorely disappointed by what was actually delivered.)

It is virtually guaranteed that any 4e thread will descend into trolling within the first dozen replies.

Criticism or troll?

A criticism is one or more factual statements that, when combined, suggest that there is a shortcoming. What separates a criticism from a troll is that a criticism merely lays out facts and allows the reader to decide if the facts strongly communicate a flaw. A troll statement is one that includes possibly inflammatory statements that do not allow the reader to come to their own conclusion. For example, a criticism may be "Light blue type is difficult to read on a white background". A troll statement might be "The light blue type is stupid" or "Light blue is a shit twinkie".

Benefit or Schill?

A benefit is one or more factual statements that suggests some advantage. What separates a benefit from a schill is a benefit lays out facts and allows the reader to decide if the facts strongly communicate an advantage. A shill statement is one that includes puffery or exaggeration or unsupported claims of goodness from which a reasonable reader cannot come to a conclusion; the things you might see or hear during a sales pitch, for example. For example, "classes are designed to complement each other" or "paragon grants a sense of prestige and accomplishment" are examples of schilling, as they are unsupported or include extremely optimistic claims that cannot be verified.


Some of the criticisms leveled at 4e include:

  • The skill challenge system, which was supposed to cover non-combat action sequences, was completely broken as-published, to the point that difficulties were inverted (in many cases it was impossible to accrue four successes before two failures on a complexity 1 skill challenge, while it was often nearly impossible to fail a high-complexity skill challenge). The published examples of negotiation made Fighters completely useless in skill challenges because their lone class social skill, Intimidate, generates automatic failures! Wizards attempted to fix the system with errata three times, creating four different sets of rules in a year, all broken, for this system. + *none. There are only trolling points.
  • The decrease in rules still leaves exceptions and gotchas lying around like clutter, such as picking suboptimal race class combos (which can destroy your character build forever), or even choosing a +2 proficiency weapon (at least fixable if you didn't mess up your initial stat build). +
  • HP bloat resulting in grinding and "padded sumo" where combat just drags on and on and on... The Monster Manual II attempted to fix this with errata, but the mathematics are still way off. Higher level monsters are often grossly incapable of killing the players and have too much HP, making it a chore instead of a thrilling challenge. +
  • The fluff descriptions of the powers are incomprehensible. The world-fluff is also generally silly - even if some argue it is actually unnecessary to pay attention to the core fluff at all it still feels like a bad writer's fantasy heartbreaker. +
  • Fragile system: Players can easily exploit and break the game by taking advantage of flaws in ranged combat, the healing surge mechanic, and other things. +
  • Tarrasque doesn't regenerate anymore. Fuck you Wizards, fuck you. +
  • The powers themselves are very cookie-cutter in nature, relying on a number of stock effects (such as "Slide", "Slow", "Stun", "Spend a healing surge", etc). +
  • Monsters don't have fluff, they have stupid high lore checks. The most famous being Bear Lore: with an unusually high Nature Knowledge check you can find out "bears use their claws to attack." +
  • Playtest combats carried out by Touhoufags show that a party that knows what it's doing and uses group tactics well will cut through encounters several levels higher than themselves like a hot knife through butter. +
  • Over-reliance on unimaginative 'adjectivenoun' naming conventions, for instance: Darkleaf Armor: Darkleaves from the gravetrees of the Shadowfell give this armor its protective properties.. +
  • Lack of non-combat content such as crafting. This criticism refers to the emphasis on combat powers over out-of-combat features. Monsters themselves have no utility or out-of-combat abilities. In the words of one D&D designer: "monsters live for five rounds before they die, so they only need five things to do." +
  • The Mongol dilemma: soldiers on horseback can defeat many of the game's monsters because the monsters don't have ranged attack powers. +
  • Giving a flying monster a bow makes it too hard for a party to kill. +
  • Various broken abilities that demonstrate a lack of playtesting and/or willful disregard for legitimate concerns (i.e.: "Orbizard," Demigod epic destiny, pre-errata Blade Cascade, etc.) +
  • Embarrassingly shallow example encounters. Encounters don't come with predesignated personalities or behavior such as calling reinforcements or fleeing from the battle without the DM creating them him/herself. Instead they seem like XP pinatas. +
  • The economic system has major flaws, such as the manufacturing cost for useful items as stated in the Player's Handbook to be exactly the same as the sale price. +
  • Vastly dissociated mechanics: how do I describe what's going on in a way that makes sense? What does it mean when a monster "marks" an opponent? Is it faerie fire, which somehow still helps tremorsense monsters? Is it tactics, which still works even if there's only one monster in the encounter? And how can a paladin's mark wipe out a fighter's mark? Too many powers cripple the ability to narrate a cohesive scene outside of a completely meta-game interpretation. +
    • Bloody Path has to be one of the worst of these. "Stop hitting yourself! Stop beheading yourself!" +
  • A lack of diversity and interesting classes caused by the standardization of all powers and classes. Game balance doesn't mean making everything the same. +
  • Daily powers that can't possibly use Vancian as an excuse. "I can only swing for 6[W] + Strength damage and mark all nearby enemies once per day!" "I can make a sly maneuver that forces my opponent to jump for cover... once." +
  • Minions can be killed in one hit by any attack that doesn't miss, making them more like pointless peasant fodder than actual adversaries. They make no sense outside of a disassociated mechanics ruleset, and are not natural parts of the game world. "They die quickly because they are supposed to die quickly." And how do they manage to evade a power that is supposed to still do damage on a miss, like a fireball, when they're supposed to be weaksauce? +
  • The various auto-damage abilities make minions worth far too much for their level. A wizard using an autodamage power can kill thousands of minions twenty levels higher than he is, ‘power-leveling’ to high level in a single encounter that makes no sense outside of the rules. Many other classes get similar auto-damage effects. +
  • Solo monsters have insanely large amount of hit points, but ‘solo’ monsters cannot challenge a party single-handedly, due to many character abilities that completely shut down a monster, very low damage dealing capability, and the ‘action economy’…a solo monster only gets one attack a round (plus a move, usually impossible, and a minor action), whereas the party gets 5 attacks plus moves plus minor action--a solo simply can’t keep up, even if it could survive the debilitating special effects or deal enough damage to threaten a character. +
  • WTF is a healing surge? It's a pretty essential part of the mechanics, but the fluff never explains what a healing surge IS nor how to role-play spending a healing surge. The magical healing of a cleric is the same as being screamed at by a warlord...but why? +
  • Many classes are based on mechanics rather than fluff. A class is built around its role (Striker, Defender, Leader, Controller) with the fluff painted over it. +
  • Roles are not protected. Almost every class has multiple area of effect powers, supposedly the domain of the Controller. Defender classes can outdamage Strikers (who supposedly deal the most damage). Numerous classes also get healing, even if they're not Leaders (which are supposedly the healers). There are some classes that have a secondary role, but some that cross-over to other roles aren't listed as having a secondary role as others do. +
  • Use of Dungeons and Dragons terms on things that have nothing to do with their effects or use in 4E. E.G: The 'Sleep' spell doesn't put anything to sleep in 4e terms, 'Disintegrate' doesn't disintegrate, 'Fireball' isn't a ball of fire, spells and rituals named after characters, even though there is no rules for researching spells and rituals, and the spells and rituals existed before the iconic characters did...so why are they named after them? +
  • Elimination of iconic spells, traditional class features, and whole classes in the name of balance. Try playing an wizard that enchants tools or ANYTHING other than throwing evocations around, or an unholy priest necromancer, or a witch with a familiar. Sorcerers, bards, rangers with animal companions, druids, and monks were not available in the initial release; people were upset they had to buy MORE books for these iconic classes that have been with us since 1st edition. +
  • Exception-based design wankery, plus shit like the four different "evil eye" variations. Includes ability non-interaction and "How the hell do I adjudicate this?" Even determining if "Mountain Hammer Smite" can knock open a door requires house-ruling. +
  • Using Page 42 from the Dungeon Master's Guide as a guide for actions the rules don't cover, instead of the DM's own judgment. +
  • Instead of eliminating the 15-minute workday, the devs put everyone on the 15-minute workday schedule. +
    • "Get into a fight, blow all your daily powers for spike damage, take an extended rest, lather, rinse, repeat." +
  • A party of everyone playing the same class is often superior to a party of everyone playing a different class. This is because most classes can do most of what other roles can do, and because 'exception based design' means powers generally can only interact with themselves. +
    • Obvious example, the cleric. In Divine Power (an official splatbook), clerics get an encounter utility power at level 2 that lets them take damage equal to their healing surge value, in return for healing someone else twice that. Put two clerics in the same party and everyone gets healed to full after an hour's downtime, a grievous exploit in a game where the workday is limited mostly by the hit point pool. This isn't the only problematic power; it's a problem with the leader role in general since they have the lion's share of 'you suck for one round but someone else ends up awesome' powers. Lesser examples include parties specializing in a type of damage or bonus and pushing the opposition off of the RNG (the Radiant Whore party is a good example). This leads to the most damning indictment of 4E being more balanced: +
    • While the classes in aggregate are more-or-less balanced (with the exception of some outliers such as the cleric/wizard/ranger/druid. CoDzilla dead in 4E my ass), party configurations as a whole are blatantly unbalanced. A party with three leaders will do much better at low levels than the suggested 'balanced' party of leader + defender + two strikers + controllers. A team of clerics with Recovery Strike/Astral Seal, the Mark of Warding feat, Shield of Faith, Consecrated Grond, and Moment of Glory will pretty much steamroll everything. At higher levels, a team of controllers is basically you telling the DM that you fucking win the game forever. So much for the balanced party. +
  • Ranged and melee characters don't interact very well. Ranged characters can open up the range (taking fewer volume of attacks) and attack from safe spots. Melee characters have more durability and do more damage. Since 4E worships the 'closet troll' method of designing encounters, melee characters are rarely hurt by not having a ranged attacker to begin with. This leads to warlocks being a waste of time when added to a melee party (because even melee controllers will do more damage than this ranged striker) and being a burden on resources because they can't contribute their hit-point pool. By the same token, adding a paladin to a party of wizard / archer ranger / laser cleric / wand bard will only end up with the paladin getting turned to chunky salsa. +
  • The defender role is generally useless. Unless you have some tricked-out build like a Thunderglaive Swordmage, the only thing that really allows a defender to perform their role--especially at really low and really high levels--is the DM humoring them. Even defenders that can effectively inhibit one monster such as the swordmage can't really do anything about the other four monsters just swarming past them and gangbanging the rogue or wizard. +
  • Monsters within the same species often have unique, but inexplicable powers, such as each Cyclops having a power called "Evil Eye" that does something completely different for each type of cyclops. And one of the evil eye powers gives him a bonus to ranged attacks... better than someone with depth perception. wait, wut? +
  • Monsters mostly play about the same. A high level lich, supposedly an undead powerful wizard, only has one reliable attack, and an aura, plus a single unreliable/recharging power. An orc, half a dozen levels lower, has an attack power, and an aura. Adding to this is not much else changes, either, despite the level difference (for example, the orc and lich differ in hit points by 2, and in expected damage by 2.25 against same-level opponents). +
  • Defenses don't level appropriately, causing characters to always be vulnerable in at least 1, if not 2, defenses. +
  • Pic related, you don't need magic, just Bluff it
    The skill system has been simplified so that now a single skill covers a sometimes ridiculous range of abilities. For example, "Bluff" covers the ability to lie, use ventriloquism, cooking a gourmet meal, to create a disguise, to write a forged document, selling items, and most recently due to PHB3, to assist in casting magic rituals. See image. +
    • Skills automatically increase by level, whether the player/character uses the skills or not. So, the higher-level albeit unstudied fighter will roll better on Religion checks than a cleric, and the fighter will be able to discuss in detail gods and religions the fighter has never seen or heard of. The fighter will also be better on Arcana checks than lower level wizards, better at Thievery than rogues, and, well, everything. Universities can just hire one high level, but otherwise retarded, fighter to lecture all classes in all departments. +
  • Spotting traps requires a different ability score (Perception: Wisdom) than disarming traps (Thievery: Dexterity), so Rogues can't spot level-appropriate traps. +
  • Religion is based on intelligence in 4e, so a cleric can't answer level-appropriate questions about his own god or religion. +
  • "Charisma is a dump stat" for 3E has been replaced by "Intelligence" is a dump stat for 4e, since you can use either intelligence or dexterity for defense, and the latter has several other bonuses not granted by intelligence. +
    • Instead of one dump stat, you now have three, because each defense uses the better of two attributes. An intelligent and agile warrior (say, Intelligence 20, Dexterity 20) doesn't avoid blows any better than an intelligent and very clumsy warrior (Intelligence 20, Dexterity 8). An intelligent character still has high defense, even when unconscious. Does any of this make sense? +
  • The three 'tiers' of character levels (1-10, 11-20, and 21-30), aren't different from one another. Powers just have increased damage and bonus to hit, but don't actually change. The stock effects that differentiate powers, like 'Slow', don't change. The difference between a low and high level Wizard's Magic Missile is damage and to hit bonus, nothing else. Since higher level monsters have more hit points and better defenses, and Wizards don’t even get more low level spells to cast as they gain levels, the end result of gaining levels is nothing. +
  • Although players can find that low level combat is easy to manage, higher level combat becomes very difficult to manage even with the help of visual aids like combat cards, a white board, a game table, a status effect chart, an initiative chart, a combat map, status effect markers, marking icons, miniatures, and a DM Screen of charts. +
  • Higher level characters each have a host of unique special powers, including a number of 'interrupts', causing many fights past level 10 or so to be complicated interrupt-fests, with even interrupt-interrupts, and such. +
  • Status effects also get out of control at higher levels; a monster can easily have half a dozen effects, each granting situational +2 or +1 or -1 or -2, in addition to marks and quarries, in addition to dazed/immobilized/slowed/restrained/combat advantage, in addition to bloodied, in addition to possible special power effects. +
  • Effects are not streamlined. Some end at the beginning or end of a turn while others end on a save that could happen at the beginning or end of a turn, making it very difficult to keep track of, and sometimes there are 'after effects' with more rules. +
  • Damn near every attack/power adds another effect you have to keep track of -- every enemy needs post-it notes for the heap of status effects that requires bookkeeping. +
  • WotC churned out dozens of splatbooks, requiring a gamer to spend hundreds of dollars to play in their favored setting, access new features, or to expand upon their class, or even to use many classes. Mistakes have led to considerable errata, meaning you need to go online to get the errata--not all of the errata is added to the recent printings, either. +
  • Character power effects are very difficult to remember, even though they're all "damage + possible effect", the names have nothing to do with the effects. For example, Steel Serpent Strike doesn't deal poison damage, isn't "fast" in any way (other than the fluff), and doesn't require a steel weapon to be used. Gamers must keep "Power Cards/Sheets" to remember what their powers do. +
    • The level 7 rogue power "Sand in the Eyes" is particularly problematic. You need to have a light blade in your hand to throw sand? You can be in the belly of a purple worm, and STILL use this power to blind the worm...even if you don't have any sand. +
  • Ritual system is completely unusable outside of a few effects. The overall power level of rituals is kept to a 'Harry Potter' level, creating internal ridiculousness when combined with the economy system (scrying on a creature costs 100,000 gold pieces). Moreover, the casting time of rituals (rarely quicker than 10 minutes) makes rituals even more useless. +
  • Someone forgot to give a hardness score to objects. This leads to extreme silliness like a squad of 10 children being able to punch through castle walls faster than you would flinging rocks from one catapult at it. +
  • Taking 20, an integral part of the d20 system, is removed from the rules. Either this means that the game seriously expects you to keep rolling a d20 until you get a 20 or you're only allowed to make one check on anything that doesn't have a 'retry' option (such as defeating Arcane Lock) ever. +
  • Completely unbalanced distribution of elemental effectiveness. Radiant damage is by far and away the most useful damage type to specialize in (with thunder and frost damage distant seconds) while poison and necrotic are a complete waste of time. On the flip side, players will always pick resist 5 necrotic over immunity to psychic damage if you could only have one or the other. Everyone get thar laser swords and put on Skull Masks or GTFO. +
  • Next to the skill challenge and ritual system, the magical item system is the most broken subsystem in the game. Some highlights: +
    • 4th Edition characters are overly dependent on their magical items. At higher levels, you can't even start to fight without being blinged out up the ass since magical items are more important to your damage output than your class, your feats, and your powers. Monsters do not need magical items to bring a similar level of pain. This has the effect of making PCs look like pussies for needing their bling while not actually making them interesting since the best items in the game are manipulations to a combat roll. +
    • One of the design goals was to reduce dependency on magical items, to prevent the Christmas tree effect that plagued 3rd Edition characters. 4th Edition added many more item slots than 3rd Edition has. +
    • Magical item dailies makes 90% of magical items almost useless out of the box. A 15th-level character might expect to use three magical item dailies in a day (4-encounter workday). A 15th level character will have around 8 magical items that use dailies. Most magical items have no effect if you don't burn a daily. This wouldn't be so bad in theory if the magical item dailies had a wide-range of utility, making your character a sort of Inspector Gadget who had to carefully ration their power, but they tend to be bullshit effects like 'become invisible for six seconds as a standard action' or 'gain temporary hit points equal to your healing surge'. These are the effects of 18+ level items. This leads to wide swatches of players picking the exact same sets of magical items for the rest of their life. +
    • Utility magical items are worthless, due to a combination of low actual utility, their overpricedness, and the fact that the magical item daily system makes them compete with combat magical items. +
    • The wealth accumulation system is ludicrously arbitrary and unbalanced. The DM rolls for magical items without any regards towards whether the magical items are better than what the players currently have or are even USUABLE. The DMG makes some vague mewling about getting Christmas lists from players but doesn't make it clear how much players are supposed to get items they like. In combination with the above points two 'organic' parties who went on exactly the same adventures and built their characters exactly the same can have wildly varying power levels. +
  • Complete disconnect between high-level NPCs' feats and their actual abilities. Szass Tam is probably one of the strongest wizards in Faerun but he can't even reliably one-shot a 1st level goblin. Not to mention the fact that he has no apparent abilities other than his monster entry, which lists nothing but combat powers. How the fuck is he supposed to engage in classic wizard tomfoolery like mind-controlling the mayor or getting skullcap massages from succubi? +
  • Arbitrary (read: lazy) separation of powers from their environment at large. A halfling can push a 100,000kg dragon 30 feet backwards with a 13th level power yet is not allowed to use the same power to knock a statue out of the way. +
  • 'One True Race' for many class combinations unless you want to take a significant penalty. Halfling fighters and half-orc wizards are shitty in 4e, but that's hardly news. Dragonborn being discouraged from being ranger archers is bad enough. Everyone BUT elves being discouraged from being ranger archers is unfuckingacceptable. This is made worse by racial feats being intentionally designed by that rat bastard Andy Collins to be more powerful than general feats. +
  • The 'more monster races' 4E constantly crows about is not actually more races. While the 3E ECL system was woefully unbalanced, we would've preferred for the game to, you know, make playing hill giants and nymphs playable. 40 different Rubber Forehead Alien races is not a meaningful choice, and it's an insult to our intelligence for the game designers and fanbois to advertise this. This is fucking Dungeons and Dragons, not Star Trek: Voyager. +
  • The tactic of monsters swarming one PC and gangbanging them is dominating. Because of their low damage output and the relative ineffectiveness of defenders, monsters are encouraged to ignore the tactical situation and try to pile all of their attacks onto one PC. The only reason for monsters to do otherwise is if they're tied up by the terrain or another power or (more likely) the DM is humoring them. +
  • Paragon paths and epic destinies don't transform your character enough to have enough a noticeable effect on gameplay. Getting 5 minutes worth of regeneration, a +1 bonus to attack/defense/damage, and 2 extra healing surges a day, which is what you can expect after 9 levels of this shit, does NOT make you a fucking demigod. Wolverine wouldn't wipe his ass with that weaksauce celestial ascension and that sadsack routinely gets beaten up by the lolis. Note that demigod is considered one of the most powerful epic destinies in the game. +
  • Very narrow, yet very fragile system. A "+1 to everything" power is mathematically the most game-breaking ability you can get (CF Demigod, Weapon Expertise, etc), and building a character with a -1 to everything (i.e., picking something besides the one true race/class combo, eg 'half-orc wizard' instead of 'gnome wizard') is a horrible mistake. +
  • Even if you know what you're doing as a DM, it's a VERY, VERY slow game that feels less akin to roleplaying fantasy and more like being that kid you used to see at school who spent his time counting bugs. ALL THE TIME. +
  • 4E completely missed the point why we hated 'Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards' by implementing 'Linear Warriors, Linear Wizards'. The problem wasn't just that the previous setup was unfair, but also because Linear Warriors were BORING. So while WotC 'solved' the balance problem, it was at the cost of making the classes equally boring. 2E-3E's setup of only having a third of the classes interesting at high levels sucked, it was definitely better than having none of the classes interesting. +
  • 4E took very great pains to take world-affecting abilities out of the hands of the players. Diplomacy doesn't do anything without the PCs sucking the cocks of the DM anymore, almost no one gets an ability that lasts longer than 5 minutes, high-level magical items don't do donkey dick, no rules for acquiring armies or building castles or any of that shit without DM permission (you CAN get some overpriced fixtures though if you own Adventurer's Vault 2), rituals are nerfed to high heaven, and so on. How the fuck are you supposed to play an earth-shattering, world-changing hero with these kinds of limitations? +
    • Of course, this assumes that 4E isn't being duplicitous about letting you have the opportunity to play earth-shattering, world-changing heroes like it advertises on and in its books in the first place. Exalted, for example, pretty much coasts on being able to play said heroes... but as WotC no doubt learned from 3E, actually writing such rules to make such a thing happen is soooooo hard! All that math and rules cross-referencing and playtesting and shit! It's much harder to break a game where the most awe-inspiring thing a warrior does is [7W] + strength damage. So let's implement rules that reflect heroes suitable for boring bodice-rippers you find in an airport while just SAYING your heroes are epic and and awesome and all that jazz! This is exactly why 4E haters are so unimpressed by the 4Erries continually crowing about a more balanced gameset. +
      • Page 42 is another alleged point of pride for the game, but as is, doesn't make any sense. In a skill challenge to sway a king, a player might choose instead to think out of the box, and instead try to sway the queen. The GM, using Page 42 might adjudicate that this attempt deals 23 damage to the king. Lol, what? This is, of course, complete gibberish. Page 42 is only good for adjudicating combat damage. As characters are already entirely, or almost entirely, about combat damage, with clearly defined abilities that already indicated clearly combat damage, this 'magic' page is redundant, and a campaign can easily go years without ever needing anything on this supposedly very useful page.


It is said that in the darkest corners of /tg/ and behind the very stars themselves, there exist fans of 4e. There are many rumors of these "fans", but most reports say that they are mostly nice folk who recognize the game's flaws but still want to play and share it with people for fun, making them either a very tragic folk or just... folk. The fanatic, ferocious 4efag or "4rry" may be a rare breed, but one to be wary of! It is said that logic and previous editions bounce off its hide, and the best way to escape alive is to wave a D&D Insider subscription to their nose, huck it in the other direction, and run, praying to the gods.

The most dedicated unpaid fanwork based on 4e would be the Touhou Power Cards, although it's difficult to say whether these weaboo fags are using Touhou to be 4e fans, or 4e to be Touhou fans, or perhaps using Touhou as an overly-elaborate satire of the 4e concept of class powers.

See also

External Links