Talk:Adeptus Mechanicus

Umm, Windows 95 was far superior to that fucking horrid travesty that was ME...

FlintTD, I salute you for the "Why everything is so Grimdark" bit. Hit the nail on the head. Biggus Berrus 09:29, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

It wasn't my handiwork, but I am always happy to copypasta. --FlintTD 08:34, 10 June 2012 (BST)

About the machine spirit thing, they're pretty unambiguously real in canon. "Machine spirits" are really nothing more than neutered AIs (real AIs are heresy) that exist in some of the dark age tech the admech fabricates. There's even a story of a landraider going rambo on a bunch of orcs after its crew was blown up, effectively doing a one man holdout for an entire day. Of course they went totally apeshit and started ascribing machine spirits to everything from lasgunss to digital watches, but thats just admech being admech. --Petro 06:59, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Exactly what I thought, Petro. I thought it was pretty obvious, actually...

Considering how They look around for past technology instead of making it themselves, I think that there should be a link to the Archaeologist page, but I don't know where to put it.

Is the fact that MECHANICUS.jpg is a broken image link intentional? or is it just my connection. If its just my connection we should break the image. It's a perfect match for the mechanicus page.

Awwwww they fixed the broken image link...makes me sad. Was a good joke - BXW

Forge Worlds

Regarding the list of notable Forge Worlds, should we move them off to the "Forge Worlds" page entirely? It seems unnecessarily redundant to have the double-listing. --FlintTD (talk) 17:09, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

"Galactic, 125 Known Forgeworlds Presumably in the Tens-of-Thousands"

I think this is a bit unclear, though obviously there aren't tens of thousands of Forge Worlds when they a) were founded by shooting explorations fleets from Mars in the Age of Strife, and b) the half of the rest of the Imperium doesn't exist to serve and protect them. 125 known, probably another hundred or two before we start to stretch things, almost certainly less than 500 is my interpretation.

In that vein I changed them having "thousands" of Forge Worlds to "dozens, maybe hundreds". Forge Worlds aren't responsible for supplying all tech to everyone, the Imperium has the industries of the other worlds like Vostroya, Armageddon, Minerva etc for that.

Considering how many get lost or destroyed, saying "dozens" seems to be way too low, while hundreds seems about right. -- Triacom (talk) 04:26, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

For the record I meant that they can lose a lot but still have decent production going. If they only had dozens of forgeworlds then it would be incredibly easy to cripple the AdMech and the Imperium in its entirety, and if they started from hundreds and went down from there they probably wouldn't have any forgeworlds left by now. -- Triacom (talk) 04:43, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

War and technology

It also utterly stops all research on the scientific theories behind those technologies.No it doesn't. War doesn't stop the development of basic science or funding of it. As later stated total wars, where the society devotes everything to just surviving sure. But not war itself. The US during the Cold War busied itself with conflicts and competing with the US, yet it never forgot the importance of basic science research. Same point about the Soviets. The Tau have been at war for ages, whether it be Greenskins/Other Tau/Imperials/Tyranids/Chaos/Misc. aliens. Yet the Tau have across several spheres of expansion developed technologies that, I would imagine, would require investment in basic science research. See Farsight's AI buddy, the dark matter reactors powering the Riptides, etc. Now if you look at the Imperium and the sheer amount of wastage, you could imagine a small sliver of that being diverted to various new research institutes across the various segmentums. Spread them out to ensure redundancies and limit any possible corruption spreading too quickly. Guard them with their own chapter of space marines, or divert small portions of the Sol fleet to guard those planets. I would imaginet that during the last 10k years, through the Reign of Blood and other situations, at least some of those programmes may have survived. Especially if during periods of relative stability, the Imperium reinvested in the notion of these programmes. Of course that's ignoring ideological restraints and the threat of AI emerging. Some wars stop research, some do, and it's not a shut-case that the Imperium couldn't have developed some research programme. - Anon

Moved this here where it belonged. Now to start breaking this down, war does stop the research into basic fields, and you're looking at this backwards to claim this isn't the case. Modern-day science never forgot the basics because we know what those are, take that away and hand somebody a bunch of relics they need to use or die and they'll find interesting ways to use them, while not really finding out the theory behind them. You also bring up the Tau yet forget to mention that they've had thousands of years of peace, centuries of peace after their first couple conflicts and are hardly ever at war compared to the rest of the factions in the setting, claiming "The Tau have been at war for ages" is a lie. Comparing that to the Imperium doesn't work because the Imperium would have to start from scratch to see what most of their technologies do and spend who knows how long figuring everything out that the Age of Strife and Horus Heresy fucked up, and they don't have the ability to do that and keep their war machine running at peak efficiency at the same time. They can't do what you suggest here because they either don't have the spare resources you ask for, or they've tried that on a smaller scale and it didn't work out. -- Triacom (talk) 06:28, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

Who undoth mine edit?

During Long Night, Mars was more organized than Terra. Martian expeditions even invaded Terra at times looking for archeotect, as stated in the HH book 'Mechanicum.' So whoever changed my edit for the Martian faction section might want to read up on the actual fluff and not just what is in their own head.

If you bothered to look at the history section you could see who undid your edit and why. -- Triacom (talk) 05:41, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

I've already told you in the history section, new topics go to the bottom of the discussion page, that's why your edit was moved. -- Triacom (talk) 02:41, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

You seem to think that you are bothering me. Allow me to express how wrong you are - by doing this again. Ps. There is no section at the bottom for new stuff that I see.

Since you still don't get it, when you want to add a new topic to a discussion page, you click the "Add Topic" button. That automatically creates a new topic and by default, new topics go to the bottom. That's why your topic is now here. -- Triacom (talk) 05:11, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

For the record, you're lucky I even noticed your edit since the oldest edits and topics here are at the top, posting there is the same as trying to date your edit and you're accidentally ensuring most people are going to miss it. I don't think you get that I did you a favour here by moving your edit down and giving it a topic header. -- Triacom (talk) 05:13, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

Well at least you tried to give yourself a new topic title, if you hadn't undone my messages here I'd have left it because removing what other people have written in a discussion page is something you don't do. Anyway, to get to what I think the point of your message is, nothing you've written here has anything to do with Martians in 40k being like the villains of Total Recall. -- Triacom (talk) 18:28, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

Response to Triacon

Stop playing games and getting hot under the collar. I gave you solid references to Warhammer40K lore as to why Total Recall is a better example of what Mars was like during Long Night. Either refute my claim with an argument or let it stand. You can't just delete my stuff, then bitch when I delete yours. Also, you can't just handwave your own view into existence by ignoring everything I said.

"Undo revision 580626 by Cruz Espada (talk) - That's not accurate, Total Recall's corporation knew how its tech worked and was in debate on if they should activate the terraformer."

I don't have a horse in this race, but I'd like to think (besides perhapes being a bit more understanding as to how wikis work) that we could be a bit more honest about whether or not our views were contested. --LGX-000 (talk) 16:47, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

Technically, you have a horse now, since you have given an opinion. Unfortunately, your opinion is vague; could you elaborate on it? I don't know if you're truly addressing me or Triacon? -MagosBenyamin

You said more or less that he hasn't given a reason for reverting your edit. I'm contesting that claim and nothing else. --LGX-000 (talk) 17:05, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

Hey Cruz Espada, if you look at the very first response I gave you I told you to look under the View History section to find out who undid your edit and why. Claiming in the summary "Triacon keeps deleting my work, then bitches when he gets the same." Simply isn't true, because I only removed one edit from yours, ONE, and I told you why. These words: "That's not accurate, Total Recall's corporation knew how its tech worked and was in debate on if they should activate the terraformer." Are mine. I said them because Total Recall's corporation and the Martian's in 40k have entirely different approaches to technology, the corporation does not raid for tech, they do not worship tech, and they were in debate over whether or not they should use tech that would improve everyone's lives on Mars by giving it an atmosphere, whereas the Mechanicus don't consider that an option. The reason why it said they fell into "techno-barbarianism" is because they know how to turn on machines, but they don't know why what they do turns it on so they practically consider it magic. Your point that they would raid Terra for technology has nothing to do with Total Recall because the corporation never did that. -- Triacom (talk) 17:44, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

Okay, clearly we've crossed the line into high school age drama, which of course means I've now lost interest. So I'm just going to reiterate my original sentiment:

The corporation in Total Recall did not know how the alien archeotect worked, they just had a general idea about it. And they were divided up along corporate lines with their corporate leaders exercising what amounted to absolute power. To me, that is a far better reference for the Admech than the 'za-za' reference. It even takes place on the planet of Mars.

If you wish to have an actual discussion about how Total Recall plays into Admech lore, that's fine. But if you're just going to spout hurt feelings at me, and keep erasing my work, than I'm going to move on to productive pastures. -- Magos Benyamin

You seem to be confused, I think you're projecting your feelings onto me because I've been trying to get your attention this whole time. At no point have I gotten upset with you and I was open to having this discussion before, but you were more interested in deleting my edits while trying to figure out who reverted your edit on the talk page. I like how you're saying that only now have we crossed the line, apparently it wasn't crossed when you started spelling my name wrong multiple times (including for the title of this topic), which I have to assume was done on purpose because otherwise that means you saw my name 5+ times yet still couldn't remember it. As for the argument, the corporation in Total Recall knew how its own technology worked, they didn't worship it, they didn't raid earth for tech. They took alien tech and studied it, and were in debate on if they should use it while only having a decent idea for what it does. In 40k the Mechanicum didn't know how their own technology worked, they did worship it, and they raided earth for tech. They didn't study alien tech, they outright destroyed it. That's why I said that it's not a good reference. If you want to look at how it's a corporation exercising what amounted to absolute power that's also not a good reference because there were many factions among the Mechanicum that were separate from each other, meaning nobody had absolute power. Finally there's this: "It even takes place on the planet of Mars." Except that's not where the corporation was based, whereas the Mechanicum was stuck on Mars. -- Triacom (talk) 18:44, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

...so he actually restates the point he made in the initial response that you somehow managed to miss before, but now that he's done so he's "crossed the line into high school age drama" and "spouting hurt feelings", which you decide is enough of a prompt to claim a loss of interest and disengagement for the sin of... actually explaining himself in a civil and clear manner?

The levels of sanctimony on display are honestly making me nauseous. --LGX-000 (talk) 00:07, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

The Mechanicus knows how some of their technology works, just like the corporation did with the alien archeotech. Neither the corporation in Total Recall nor the Mechanicus know fully how it works, but they have a general idea. Of course, now that Cawl is back, that part of the Lore will most likely change to a degree.

The Corporation in Total Recall was totally based on Mars. Their CEO lived on Mars. However, they were still bound to Earth because Earth was politically dominant.

I don't see how the Corporaiton raiding/not raiding Earth in Total Recall really makes it any worse or better than your dza-dza reference?

Also, the Corporation didn't exercise full power. They dominated the upper-levels of Martian society but there was an underworld ruled by mutated natives. Sound familiar?

(talk)

The Mechanicus doesn't have a full grasp on their technology though, unlike the corporation and like I said they'd destroy alien tech, they did not study it. That's the big difference here, Total Recall's corporation treated alien tech the way the Mechanicus treated human tech, however that still makes them quite different since they both treat alien tech differently. Can you find me anything in the movie that states the corporation was based on Mars, its CEO living there is not evidence of that, that would be like claiming the US Presidency is based out of Donald Trump's golf courses. As for raiding, you were the one who brought up that point, if it doesn't help your argument why bring it up? Finally as I said before, there was no single sect of the mechanicus that dominated the upper-levels of Martian society, they were all a series of groups that occasionally worked together, but for the most part did their own thing. -- Triacom (talk) 18:27, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

Let me try a different tact; how is Total Recall less a more accurate reference than that Dza-dza-zin thing you mentioned? Could you explain?

(talk)

Because the only things that it has in common are it's set in the future and Mars is involved. None of the corporation's plans for Mars even line up with the Mechanicus' interests. The other reference, while not the best one in my opinion, at least represents a society that had slanted backwards into ritualistic dogma with a very loose grasp on how or why their own technology works. -- Triacom (talk) 17:21, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

Why the AdMech could still bring back technology

Creating a new topic here because I want it to be separate from the back and forth about Triacon's posting, this is just about in-universe science and tech. You could definitely get around the problems of lack of advanced computers and lack of AI, in a few ways, to bring back the ability to do research and development without Chaos corrupting it and going full Skynet on you.

One way would be to network a bunch of Tech Adepts together in a sort of research computer cluster. We know, from the existence of things like manifold interface systems and noospheres, that the capacity to network human minds together and share information very rapidly still exists, and that the AdMech still know the basics of physics, math, and all of that. We also know that, with augmentations, they can actually split their consciousness to work in parallel. So network a bunch of particularly smart and loyal Techpriests together somewhere secure, create a simulation of the rules of physics within the noosphere, and start parallel-processing experimental simulations until you figure out how shit works. If you come up with something that seems like it works, test on a small scale outside of that environment. If it doesn't explode/implode/summon a molestation of demons, you've rediscovered something useful, continue to test more versions of it. If it does do one of the above, back to the simulations to figure out what about the simulation was inaccurate, update the environment, continue with updated parameters. Repeat on large scale, and you could compress millennia of research and development into a matter of years, especially if you use the known principles of archeotech to bootstrap. No AI required. Probably not good for the long-term health of the researchers you network, but hell, given their veneration of knowledge and technology, even if it requires basically becoming a brain in a jar in a basement forever, this is probably the closest you could get to AdMech Valhalla.

And if you're worried about your complicated research technology getting corrupted by demons, there's a simple answer, one which the Imperium seems to forget on a regular basis given the way they stopped supporting the Sisters of Silence: Blanks. Have a complicated research and development computer system you don't want to get corrupted by Chaos? Get a couple blanks and station them on top of it. Boom, no more demons. Obviously this doesn't work with things that actually need to be deployed, but since lasguns don't get possessed by demons every time they get used in combat, it's safe to say that you could still use the things you created, like newer generations of weapons and power systems, without any problem.

Finally, there's a whole lot of things they could automate with no chance of corruption whatsoever, no advanced tech, and no understanding of anything more complex than basic physics. For example, why in the ever-loving fuck are Imperial ships run by slaves rather than using things like mechanized autoloaders and fuel transfer systems? That doesn't require computers, just a bunch of gears and belts. Besides the obvious "not pointlessly killing thousands of people" thing, the improved operation speed would drastically enhance the combat power of their fleets, and with less enslaved menials who hate their lives and have nothing to live for, ships would actually be dramatically less vulnerable to Chaos corruption, as inert gears and belts cannot be driven to madness and rebellion by the Warp.

Pretty much everything you're talking about here is being done in the setting, which is why the Imperium does still slowly make new tech and why older and dumber bits in the setting like the slave loading system were retconned out. About the only thing that isn't being done is networking blanks into a cluster of mechanicus minds, since they already have machine spirits to protect them against the daemons (which is also why lasguns aren't possessed every time they're used against them). Also you're wrong when you say "ships [with automated loaders] would actually be dramatically less vulnerable to Chaos corruption, as inert gears and belts cannot be driven to madness and rebellion by the Warp." The setting has shown us many times that when daemons possess something they will typically change its shape immediately. This can result in metal becoming organic, or organic materials becoming inorganic, or they might alter the gears and twist them into some sort of other device/weapon, but whatever they do they'll do it in the most hostile way possible to try and kill whoever's using the ship/device. Finally the reason I've deleted bits in the past that were put on the main page is because they're either contradictory or were trying to start discussion. In the first case, argument does not go on the main page, end of story. If there's something on the main page that you don't agree with or you think it's wrong, change it so it's correct, do not argue against it. In the second case, discussion goes on the talk page, because that's what the page is meant for. -- Triacom (talk) 15:34, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

About that edit

All Techmarines are initiated on Mars; all Navy ships are Mechanicus-built; every forge and manufactoria has a Mechanicus representative (hell, in one BL novel even tank driver/mechanic was a low-tier enginseer). Sororitas' gear is produced by AdMechs, it's literally in their codex (p.16). Worlds that swore themselves to the Mechanicum before the Great Crusade are notable for being turned into a shitholes imitating Mars and your average Joe being lobotomized like Tech-tralls and spending his life chained to his workplace until he dies. --95.28.167.165 11:44, 2 February 2020 (UTC)