Talk:Rogal Dorn

I have a question about the way the mathhammer was carried out. Did it take into account that all of the rolls to wound Dorn that were higher than a 3 should have failed to wound ala auric armor? Wouldn't that mean that he would have been wounded on a 2 only or am I misunderstanding the way that the rule works?

• The Auric Amour doesn't work like that; it simply doesn't allow a wound to be taken by Rogal on less than a 3+ (as in: even if you would wound him on 2+, you still only wound on 3+) and that was indeed taken into account. Hekaloth (talk) 12:36, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Rogal's youth

We probably should put something in about Rogal's pre emps history, since most of the other primarchs have something about that. Plus Rogal did kind of rule a small solar empire before handing it over to the emps.Dragoon508 (talk) 12:11, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Damn, I don't normally post responses to stuff but that essay that was just posted made all my questioning as to whether I had picked the right legion vanish and brought a manly tear to the corners of my eyes.

That was really well written and insightful, made me rethink a bit on the fists, although they were my favorite legion to begin with.Dragoon508 (talk) 20:43, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Primarch vs Primarch Update

The PvP table need to be redone for the new rules for Rogal; looking forward to how powerful he is now! I won't mess with it; I'm afraid I'll screw it up. TheWiseDane (talk) 23:44, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

He got buffed in the newer books? How so? -- Triacom (talk) 00:08, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

It's coming in on the page itself, but I can write it here as well - Of what we see, it's mostly Storm's Teeth that get's a facelift. It looses Unwieldy (about goddamn time) and gains an ability that lets Rogal gain 1+ Attack and lose -1 Initiative for every model in base contact with him. I guess that'll ruffle up the scores. TheWiseDane (talk) 00:14, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

I'm just guessing right now, but I don't think the +1 Attack'll help him all that much, it might make him roughly even with Perturabo, and maybe he'll have a leg up on Curze and Corax (who can still hit&run) but aside from that I doubt it'll change any other outcomes. At least he's become more useful overall and is now actually good at taking down large groups, since before he'd get swarmed by a cheap mob and all you could do is look at him and shake your head. -- Triacom (talk) 04:55, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Dorn's Death

I just wanted to make note, that recent fluff establishes that Dorn might not actually be dead. It said somewhere that when reinforcements finally arrived at his position, all they found was a severed fist. They took it, kept it in stasis, and have been scrimshawing it with the names of each Chapter Master ever since. Not sure on the source for this though. (Anon) 09:26, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

In the Hunt for Vulkan, Vulkan says that he will speak well of Koorland to Dorn implying that he is alive, The 8th Edition Codex Space Marines mentions only his fist being enshrined and one of the Battlefleet gothic rulebooks says the same. There was a book that has been retconned I believe that stated they had his whole skeleton, not sure on the name. Personally as of rn it I think he is alive just minus a hand.--JizzKing (talk) 07:44, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

The "Who is Dorn?" part

I'm not too sure about that part. It's an in-depth character analysis done in the first person, which is not our style. Feels like part fanfiction too. Not only that, it's about the length of the rest of the page. I think it should either be removed or moved to its own page. What about you guys? - Biggus Berrus (talk) 10:33, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Personally, I like it. It does a really, really good job of explaining the Imperial Fists' chapter/legion mentality, and it does a much better job of explaining the motivations of the fists around the heresy than any other source I've seen. I don't know how many times I've seen people on /tg/ or at the LGS dismiss the Imperial Fists as being boring emos, and dismiss Dorn as being a stupid, bullheaded primarch. I always want to tell them to stop and consider the events from within the mentality of the legion; that they obviously knew what they were doing when they walked into the Iron Cage, and that doing it made sense given their identity as a legion. The section may be a bit drawn out, but its more insightful than anything on any of the other chapter pages, and if it being too long is the issue, well it is in a dropdown box. Also, you're worried that it isn't done in our style?... This wiki has no unified style, dude. Josman (talk) 13:08, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

I second Josman here. It's not markedly different in style from the "Why Everything is so Grimdark" section on the Adeptus Mechanicus page; the first-person isn't significant enough to warrant moving it, or especially getting rid of it altogether. I agree that it's a little long, so a good middle ground is to make it a collapsible, like the primarch on primarch fight table. If you're going to start deleting things that seem like fanfic, the Abaddon, Indrick Boreale, and Creed pages are going to lose about 70% of their girth. --Boss Ballkrusha (talk) 19:44, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

Not sure if I'm doing this correctly; you have my apologies if not. I'm the author of the rambling in question. The style probably sticks out from the rest of the Wiki because it was originally posted on the Bolter&Chainsword forum in a thread discussing "the best legion". It's written from first-person perspective because I was talking about my personal thoughts about Dorn and the Imperial Fists. This is also why it may have a "fanfiction" feel to it, as a lot of it is personal interpretation and extrapolation from the lore available at the time (which wasn't that much). I never intended it to be taken as fact, but wanted to offer a counter-point to those who were casually dismissing the VII Legion in the thread, and offering my interpretations of Dorn and his motives. The length is just a result of being long-winded. I wrote that post on a smart phone in the middle of the night and, as I said originally, it had been something I'd sat on for a while. A little inspiration hit me and I typed it all out. Most of my posts on the B&C are quite long. I'm glad someone put it in a dropdown because, yes, otherwise it would hog the page too much. Just wanted to offer a little perspective as to why it might stick out compared to the general style. -- User:Darrell (User talk:Darrell)

That's some damn good writing for middle of the night smartphone work. Well done. Given the style and flow (and "generous" interpretation of the fists) I though it was something ADB had written up that someone had copied here. Josman (talk) 04:40, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

Alright, I've done some changing. I have no problems if the stuff stays: I just moved it down the page a bit. - Biggus Berrus (talk) 08:34, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

Phanta Claws?

Should this page contain the fact that Don put Phanta Claws on Necromunda and charged him with his mission?

Why the fuck are people so determined to keep the idiotic If The Emperor Had a Text-To-Speech Drive quote?

Too many quotes bog down the page, and the ones that are there should either actually be funny or give serious insight into the character. Mystery (talk) 23:39, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

• The fact that the particular quote has been around for ages highlights that is quite funny. Tyranid Memestealer (talk) 23:43, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

Either that or it shows they don't care. Personally I didn't care enough to remove it since I decided to let whoever put it up have their fun, but if we were to put it to a vote, I'd vote no on every single ETtSD quote. -- Triacom (talk) 02:25, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

It is not funny for anyone who didn't dig into ItEhTtSD, and it doesn't give any useful information. I agree with Triacom. To be honest, the whole series is friggin' fanfic, and not very good at that, imo, so why would someone put quotes from it at the beginning of most Primach's pages? Damn, maybe I should write a fanfic too and put quotes from it all over the wiki? --Flutist (talk) 16:42, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

At some point, 1d4chan became Uncyclopedia and started putting tangentially relevant quotes on every page. The pro-quotes won the edit wars. The TTS quotes are at least related to the subject matter.--97.104.199.133 04:06, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

Angron did what?

Ok, im going to be that guy here but...were in the fluff said Angron kill him? most fluff said he die in the first black crusade attacking a despoiler class but that it, there is nothing saying Angron have any part of it, it look something some angron fanboy put to said he is badass.

Nowhere in the fluff does it say that Angron killed him, and nowhere on the page does it say that. It says that it would make more sense if it was Angron, though I'm pretty sure Angron was also never mentioned in Dorn's demise. -- Triacom (talk) 06:51, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

"Rogal got in a big-ass ship and got pwned by Angron in the first Black Crusade,therefore proving that RAGE ends all things and how Angron is among the only Chaos Primarchs that actually gets anything done these days" so yes, it said angron did it them it praise for it and them it said it made no sense when it reallity the whole thing was never mention in canon, it seen people really got confuse here, we should remove that part--Estegio (talk) 01:46, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

No, it says Angron beat him, and it says that Khorne Berzerkers killed him. I don't know where they got the bit about Angron beating him from, but the bit about the Berzerkers is at least true. -- Triacom (talk) 01:49, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Where in the fluff does it say this, just curious b/c I haven't heard that before.--JizzKing (talk) 08:50, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

The "Rogal Dork, the retarded son" Article

What in guilliman's fucking gallbladder is this, keep your beef for the fists off the site.--Nuln Oil (talk) 00:12, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

I say get rid of it. Not only is it badly written, but I'm certain a couple of the points are just wrong. Polux might have defeated Perturabo at Phall, but it would have certainly depleted the Imperial Fists forces even more which I'm sure is even pointed out in the story, so it was the choice between a costly victory or a consolidated retreat. Polux couldn't be blamed for following the order without the full information of what's happening elsewhere in the galaxy, it's not a case of blindly following in the same sense as being implied. I'm also certain that Rogal Dorn didn't interfere with the Execution Force in Nemesis and the mission failed on it's own merits without Dorn's involvement (the book was only subtitled "War within the shadows", so the author got that wrong too) I haven't fully read Praetorian of Dorn, but the way this article is written with paraphrased statements it's very difficult to follow. In any case, the unnamed "short story" (actually titled Hands of the Emperor, for those looking for it) definitely shows the Imperial Fists being stubborn and blockheads, but it needs to be pointed out that it was the Custodians who sought engagement over the issue when it was agreed by all that Rogal Dorn was going get his authorisation anyway, so the issue was a bureaucratic formality and the Custodians were prepared to bring the whole plate down just to stop them from doing it early; so who is more blockheaded, the Imperial Fists? or the Custodians? Captain Katafalque even lectures the Custodians on their recklessness at the end of the story. The fact that the Imperial Fists are stubborn is not new, it doesn't really need a lengthy article of vague/paraphrased evidence to point it out. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 08:22, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm sorry but what you are writing is plainly wrong. You should probably re-read the mentioned books. It's clearly stated that Polux took horrible casualties by retreating from the battle of Phall. Far more that he would have by continuing and winning the battle. Polux himself admits that it's a bad call but he feel forced to comply. Other than the losses, Polux forces get scattered, many ending up in imperium secundus. The retribution force is basically entirely lost. Also the Execution Force fails because Horus is warned - strongly implied by Rogal Dorn - and sacrifices a captain to be killed instead of himself. Again, re-read the book. The last story is a little bit more debatable since you can argue that the custodes were also stubborn (but you can also argue that it's how you watch airspace, with fixed procedures. Try to fly over Washington without following every procedure to the letter and tell me how it goes). But still, the point is that the whole mess started because Dorn (of all people!) could not be bothered to follow procedure BEFORE giving the order. This is not about Fists stubborness, but about Dorn's uncanny ability to always take the bad decision. Phas (talk) 10:03, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Just to back up what I'm saying. Don't argue with me, argue with the GW writer that did this. 10:17, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

What a stupid thing to say, as if you don't take ownership of what you've written. Phall still can't count as evidence towards Dorn or his sons, because Polux didn't have the information to make the decision. The very page you use as evidence shows Polux struggling with Dorn's order as he ponders whether the traitors have made it to Terra already. In fact the book Horus Heresy III says exactly the same thing and examines how Polux was ignorant of the facts and could have won - but to credit your own argument the Imperial Fists obedience condemned and worked against them, which might work as a better article on the Battle of Phall or more broadly on the Imperial Fists pages rather than here, because there is more to it than Dorn just being a retarded dork as you put it. By the same token, the Custodians are exactly the same with their blind obedience, and Dorn calls then out on it in a later short story "Magisterium" when Valdor argues that the orders he recieved were inviolable, so pointing this out for the Fists is hardly special. Also I did have another look at Nemesis, and couldn't find anything about how Dorn somehow warned Horus, but if true could be expanded into its own section. What might be better is a complete rewrite of how Dorn's decisions cost them key victories during the Horus Heresy, WITHOUT the useless hyperbole, but ALSO put into context of the Emperor's foreknowledge, in that big E knew that Rogal Dorn could have taken out Horus early-on but would have caused them to lose the war. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 10:39, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

HH3 also posits that the timing of Dorn's message was possibly more to do with the will of Horus dark allies, so it muddies the argument of whether Dorn is a retarded dork who makes bad decisions if his enemies are able to manipulate his communications to their advantage. Again, this article can be expanded into something of higher quality. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 10:51, 18 July 2020 (UTC)