Talk:Space Marines

Pending /tg/ Space Marine Chapters

Does this really need to exist? As far as I can tell, the chapters aren't ever going to be not-pending. May as well stuff them in with the other /tg/ chapters (most of which seem pretty pending anyway). - Shock Mox 15:24, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

• It's just for fun. Though in the fluff there are two "missing" Space Marine legions that GW will never identify, allowing gamers free reign to create their own Space Marine chapters (one of the good things in GW's fluff), so let /tg/ have their fun.

---

I don't know whether or not to revert this. --Carcer 20:02, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I was wondering the exact same thing. --Myomoto 20:02, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Do space marines take baths? What's the canon's stance on this?--203.81.166.2 14:40, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

OLD PIC WAS BETTER. NEW PIC IS ASS.

As for the above, it is mentioned that they undertake 'purification' at times. Overseen by the Apothecary. Some Crimson Fist captain said that he'd make sure that his Marines were 'purified' after working with 'diseased half-animals', meaning the Ogryn.

In Horus Rising, Karkasy describes the astartes as having an unpleasant odor. I've always pictured them cleaning themselves like the ancient Greeks. They'd use a sharp-edged stone or shell to scrape the oil and dead skin off of their bodies.

Or they do the thing where they are covered in an airtight film, then pell that shit off. Full body wax. Presto, instant clean. - Biggus Berrus (talk) 22:08, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Create a new page?

I was thinking, why not put the space marine guidelines on its own page, like we did with the Emperor's To-Do List? Munch munch 02:42, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

TO THE FUCK UPS WHO BITCH ABOUT PAULDRONS

Big shoulderplates are a staple of the franchise faggots. AND EVERYONE FUCKING HAS THEM. Orkz, the upper echelon faggots of the Imperial Guard and Eldar, the Tau and so forth.

DEAL WITH IT. ANY FURTHER BITCHING ON THE MATTER WILL BE FORWARDED TO THE COMMISSARIAT.

Well not only is it the GW staple but alot of fantasy/sci-fi games like to use large pauldrons.

BUT FOR ALL YOU WHO REALLY CARE, JUST MOD YOUR MINIS!!!! STOP BEING BITCHES

Guidelines

Is there any way the Guidelines of the Space Marines could be put in double columns? A whole lot of the space on each line is wasted to the right side where it just cuts off. --71.229.74.0 05:34, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

I think we should select the best guidlines and streamline the list down to around 50-100 guidlines and get rid off all the others. Of course this list has been around since 2005 (originaly being around 200 guidlines) and a significant amount of rules have been added/lost/re-discovered since then. I would kill for the original list. -- Mr. Spooky 20 February 2012 (UTC)

SECOND VERSE, VERSE MATT WARD

They're so brave and fucking awesome that it's really quite obscene
They eat magma sandwiches washed down with gasoline
At playparks they can use the swings
But not the trampolines
They're the greatest, they're the Emperor's Marines!

This is all canon, obviously Tim 18:23, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I lol'd Luigi 21:56, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

SUP?

So, anyone wanna create a page about this new toy?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Stormtalon_Gunship#.T8EdrdVYt1E

Chapter descriptions

I've noticed that a lot of users on here that try to help improve this page but are accidentally fucking it up. Personally, I wouldn't mind if you add more info to different sections and everything, but it's when the anons (and a certain user who shall remain nameless) messes with the descriptions on this part is when I want to ask the admins to at least protect that section (if that's possible) but I just revert the changes back to how they were. --88.198.100.230 04:36, 28 May 2012 (BST)

I second the motion. Anarchy is all well and good, and I'd expect a bit from a 4chan wiki, but that section is an absolute clusterfuck. Josman (talk) 16:26, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Edit War 2: Electric Boogaloo

The Dark Angels entry is a joke, we're well aware of their secretive nature. The joke, brought over from the Dark Angels page, is that there is a Dark Angel marine running around the wiki retconning any article that mentions the fallen. Of course its harder to get that joke when other editors have added multiple strikethroughs to every single entry on the list, which is why I'm embroiled in my own edit war to get rid of them. I guess we could all sit down and talk about it like adults. Or, you know, keep mashing the revert button. Whatever works for you guys. --Petro 05:51, 29 May 2012 (BST)

I'd say it's not "harder to get", it's just indistinguishable from the rest of the stuff on the list. We could, of course, try to come to some compromise... Fatum 10:42, 29 May 2012 (BST)

Heresy!

Kill on sight order

I think the 'Though the Imperium of Man has basic "kill on sight" orders for non-humans' line is misleading, Servitors are far less human than a Space Marine, as well as some of the heavily augmented Skitarii and Techpriests, and yet they're tolerated as well. --Wiser Guy 21:59, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

"In the grim darkness of the future, there is only hypocrisy."

Don't bother trying to point out the mistakes of the Imperium of Mankind; they won't listen. Rediscovered human colonies will be declared 'Chaos-tainted' if the local Inquisition finds them to be icky, even in the absence of any presence of the Warp.

--NotBrandX 16:07, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Biological Immortality

The ongoing 'debate' on biological immortality seems trite and reeking of fanboyism, it has been a constant since 2nd eddition that Marines are not immortal, a thing that even Matt Ward upheld despite his fanboyish tendencies. I really don't see how their are two 'valid' sides of the debate. Most of the immortal theory A) coming BL and B) being posited from the in character points of view of the first space marines, who at the time were still well with in their natural lifespans.

• Also, the novels go back and forth on it while the codexes imply they aren't. Games Workshop has said the only fluff in the setting that is completely true, not open to interpretation is in the codexes.

Regular marine

Regular marine needs a page and since I am not very good at that sort of thing I wrote this in the hopes someone talented will read it

Your own guys?

Hey just wondering. Is it possible to add your own Chapter, without going through the /tg/ creation process? Cause I have an idea quite done, and just wondering if I can make a page without it being deleted cause /tg/ didn't do it? -- Dark Harlequin (talk) 08:30, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Don't make pages about your special snowflake Mary Sue Chapter. If it's an interesting idea, consider it. Or even better, make a thread about it on /tg/ and see how it's recieved first. --StargateNerd (talk) 22:28, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Understanding Astartes, and their relationship with Humanity

Hey guys, I'm looking for your thoughts on the following and whether it belongs on the page. Lord Captain Kitten (talk) 1:00, 19, November 2015 (UTC)

The Sacrifice of self: an analysis of the process and psychological modification of a human to an Adeptus Astartes. "They are more than human, they are steel and doom", one short line perfectly defines the Adeptus Astartes. It may seem like common sense but when you consider what a space marine actually is, you must start to consider what humanity has truly wrought. We must remember two things, one an Astartes is a biological weapon two it is a weapon that possesses a soul. The initial idea for modified humans appears early in the galaxies history as cultures that were separated by warp storms or extreme distance manufactured their own version of defenders. Things that would be able to tackle the horrors of the Galaxy. Yet only with the coming of the Emperor and the primarch project do we see this process streamlined to produce hundreds of thousands of genetically modified trans-humans. I want us to consider the following, the Emperor always knew he needed an advantage over the other galactic civilizations. His power was near infinite but even he couldn't persecute his conquest alone. His first attempt with the thunder warriors was.......problematic. Humans who were heavily modified to be little better than berserk monsters. knowing these forces were unreliable and in many ways unpredictable he focused on the next generation of enhanced bio weapons. The thing he was right about is that humanity always responds better to something that is similar in appearance. Yes the Thunder warriors were brutal beyond measure but they were still essentially human, and needed a very specific control mechanism. The Adeptus Astartes are more akin to an assembly line soldier than a gene-modified barbarian, the specific organs that are introduced into their system rapidly change the baseline human into a pure weapon. Then there is also the matter of the legion/chapter life that the new instrument of war is introduced to. They are removed from basic human society and become one with a body that is genetically and culturally based on a very specific source. The psychological conditioning that takes place is rather fascinating, as many of the Adeptus Astartes view their Primarchs as being "fathers", that is an amazing cultural construct. We have to remember that in most cases an Aspirant is taken at a very young age, their potential identity is supplanted by what the Legion/chapter requires them to be. The introduction of the concept of a Primarch would be staggering a mind that is still in the process of forming, to explain to them that these beings are responsible for the transformation into a near perfect warrior would naturally create a psychological conditioning where said individual would see this being as his father, because they are literally reborn through their genetics. The problem with this is that you are fundamentally creating a creature that is not human in the strictest sense. We have many examples were Astartes are unable to understand basic human etiquette or humor, even more examples where standard conversation is as alien to them as a xenos tongue. In the process of protecting humanity, the Emperor manufactured something that doesn't fully grasp humanity. Yes they are our defenders of that there is no doubt, but did anyone ever bother to wonder why Chaos always manages to seep in and claim more and more of these warriors? The answer is simple, the age when an aspirant is selected is a time when morality, ethics and even culture are continually introduced to them. Once you deprive an human being of that and link them to a strict pseudo-culture they will always be unsure of what they truly are. Naturally they will know no fear, but they will also fail to grasp a myriad of balancing human emotions. The actual biological modification process is truly miraculous, just think of the number of grafts and organs introduced into a still developing system. All these things are designed to make a nearly unstoppable killing machine, be it a secondary heart, the ability to spit acid, even the ability to obtain the memories of the dead from consuming their tissue. In many ways this becomes the most dangerous aspect of the Adeptus Astartes conditioning, not because of the possibility of rejection, although that happens often enough, no it;s the temporal difference this creates between humans and trans-humans. Astartes are functionally immortal, that means they can and in some cases do live for thousands of years. This again creates a very dangerous difference between a human being and a space marine, once they undergo the augmentations they view baseline humans as "mortals", that word in itself is very dangerous because the basic meaning behind it is that an Astartes is beyond us, more than mortal. While accurate in purely a biological perspective it also grants the idea that baseline human lives rarely matter. This of course varies from chapter to chapter, with extremes going in both directions such as the Vlka Fenryka and the Salamanders to the Iron hands and the Marines Malevolent. We must also consider how baseline humans view Astartes, they are literally seen as the angels of the Emperor, across the Imperium viewed as lords and demi-gods, does it really surprise anyone why this occurs? the answer harkens back to the time of the great crusade and the Horus heresy. We have heard the term transhuman dread thrown around in various heresy novels. The concept that the human mind was not ready to accept such creatures that seeing them move or act instantly halted our fight or flight responses leaving humans little better than target practice. This can also relate to another idea "Transhuman Awe" by which I mean that humans naturally become completely enraptured by the idea that this giant is here to protect them. From our own cultures we have encountered stories where people feel a sense of awe when dealing with someone who has great gifts or a physical presence that cannot be matched, now amplify that to 7.5 or 8 feet and add on enough armor and weapons to depopulate entire cities in minutes. The question then becomes why are such thing required. If humanity was truly worthy of inheriting the stars, why did it need to build such warriors. there are several trains of thought that come to mind with this. One is that unmodified humans are simply not truly capable of standing up to what the universe has in store. The other argument is that because we have advanced to a point where we can manufacture such creatures we now have the right to unleash them. I'm sure we can all see the problem with that particular argument, however in terms of propaganda it is a near perfect one to make. My view is more akin to the former, the galaxy is vast and in truth the threats that constantly emerge can and do annihilate baseline forces. The Adeptus Astartes basic lack of humanity allows them to defend us because most of the weaknesses have been bred out of them. This does not make them perfect it merely makes them extremely viable and efficient killers. I am certain the Emperor knew there were threats that humans would not be able to comprehend, be it the warp or extra-galactic invaders, we needed the Astartes because of an inherent weakness in our species. We needed monsters to save us from worse monsters. The horror of the situation is humanity put their faith in these bio-weapons never fully realizing that the lack of the basic characteristics that make us human would be the downfall of many.

I like what you're talking about here, and I think it's fun to think about, but I also think you're ignoring some of your own information here. Yeah many space marines seem inhumanand and merciless, but to use the examples you mentioned, the Salamanders and the Wolves, we can see that personality has more to do with chapter culture than geneseed. For example, Russ wasn't at all compassionate, but his chapter is. In the earliest days of the Salamanders Legion, before they even bore that name, they were as merciless and agressive as the Death Guard or World Eaters, so I'd say that culture matters more than their unique biology. In ADB's book Armageddon we see Grimaldus, a Black Templar, get a bit freaked out because he gets hugged, but in The Emperor's Gift, we see Bjorn the Fel Handed telling an inquisitor that she's got a fine ass. At any given time a Salamander is just as likely to be reading a bedtime story to his nieces and nephews or shouting out good natured insults in a smithing contest as he is to be burning a heretic or SMITING (my phone's autocorrect insists that SMITING must be in caps) an alien. For ever Marine Malevolent pissing on a chapter surf there's an Ultramarine at city hall helping the local government with city planning. Sure, some marines are emotionless superhuman monsters, but I don't think that represents all of them. Even Grey Knights, who are mind wiped, can retain some of their humanity. I don't think to be mo strous is the nature of a space marine, and I don't think they're any less human for their modifications. Even normal humans can lose empathy and compassion if constantly exposed to a merciless culture. Josman (talk) 18:59, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

As to what the big E intended, I don't think it's a coincidence that he so heartily approved of the Blood Angels and Emperor's Children being artists and poets. He hoped his marines could BE human, not just protect humans. Josman (talk) 18:59, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Fat Marines

There are many problems with space marines, but one of the hilarious ones is calories, or rather how space marines can't possibly have enough of them. So, your average human male needs about 2000 calories per day to maintain an ideal body weight. In wartime, when frontline soldiers are stressed, in combat, or doing heavy labor most days, modern governments will try to get 3000-4000 calories per soldier per day. Now let's look at space marines. Stats very from author to author, but let's say the average space marine is 7 feet 6 inches (2.28 meters).

I can't find any official weight for space marines, we can say that out of their armor they'd weigh on average 650-700 pounds. This may seem high, but keep a few things in mind. One, space marine bones are thicker than human bones, heavier because of the ceramics in their bones, and proportionally they have a higher bone-to-mass ration because many of their bones are denser than humans and many of their structural bones are fused (ribcage, radius and ulna, tibia and fibula, etc). They also have heavier blood (their blood is MUCH more oxygen rich) and muscles. Finally keep in mind the square cube law.

So we have a being that is roughly 1.4 times the height of a man and 4 times the weight. This massive being is theoretically going to be in intense combat for days or even weeks at a time without stopping to eat or sleep. To figure out the calorie needs of a space marine we could use the normal ratio of increase that humans use. For example, if you had a human (with normal human biology and a high muscle mass) that was the height and weight of a space marine, they'd need to eat 8950 calories per day to maintain their weight, adjusting for high activity levels.

The real problem starts when you adjust for superhuman capabilities. Again, their capabilities very from book to book, but generally speaking they can smash a human with a casual backhand, run all day, and never tire. They have three lungs and two hears, two stomachs and three kidneys. Even if we're being VERY generous and saying that space marines only need twice the calories as a human being that matched their size and weight, that's still almost 20000 calories. Let's say a space marine is fighting skirmishes against orks, but he's working from a firebase so he can stop each day for food and four hours of sleep. So that's twenty hours on duty, four hours off, and he needs to eat 20000+ calories per day to avoid weight loss. That means that for every hour he's on duty, a space marine needs to eat a large meal. Even if we macguffin away the problems a normal human would face taking in that much food, there is still the volume problem. While it's theoretically possible for a marine to actually live this way, it leads to some interesting... Situations. When a space marine is done with a long hard day of fighting, he'd eat thirty pounds of food, take a horrifyingly colossal dump in the nearest Golden Throne, and going to sleep after a quick prayer.

Finally, if a space marine was preparing for a long-term combat mission or extended operations behind enemy lines, they'd either have to carry a few tons of food with them, or more realistically, pack on some fat. That means your stealthy raven guard get poured into their armor as a jiggling mass of folds. The furious warriors of the black templars making planetfall onto a fresh battlefield look like pudge beneath their power armor.

The solution to this problem is obviously GW Macguffining a super calorie dense food into the setting, that brings another problem. Energy from calories comes from chemical energy stored in the bonds of whatever chemicals and compounds make up the food. If you want a material that is super energy dense, you need to have more and more energy in the bonds of the substance. The more calories you pack into this super food, the more energy potential it has. This means that your super food is likely going to be corrosive, highly flammable, explosive, poisonous, or possibly all of the above. Space marines could theoretically eat this, but storing the substance would be problematic, and mixing it with hot food would be a very bad idea.

That's metal and grimdark (and actual grimdark, instead of the grimderp we've been seeing nowadays). Perfect for 40k, in other words.--The Forgefather

Space Wolves Omnibus had an actual Fat Marine in the Space yiffs. I can't remember his name though, but he was one of the best friends of Ragnar Blackmane. Evilexecutive (talk) 21:09, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

Anyway, that same book also went into detail of the diet of Space Marines. Normally they can consume typical human food, but it is not even close to being able to sate their nutrient and calorie requirements. They would usually only eat normal food and drink during special occasions. So instead their usual meals consist of a greasy paste called "Ambrosia", which is a special foodstuff explicitly intended only for Space Marines. Evilexecutive (talk) 21:09, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

They either drink the paste as is, or mix it with tastier human food and booze depending on the chapter. While the Space Wolves also like to ferment it to produce SUPERBOOZE. But if a Human were to ever consume the paste, they would die rather slowly of a vitamin D overdose, and acute liver failure. Evilexecutive (talk) 21:09, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

First thing, Evilexecutive, I'm new to wiki editing so if I'm fucking up the discussion format be sure to let me know and I'll try to figure things out. Second, the character you're thinking of is named Haegar "The Mountain." I've read that book, but it's been a few years, so I don't remember it too well. Thinking about Haegar is actually what brought me onto the topic. Third, this ambrosia paste still really wouldn't work too well, which I go into at length above.Josman

Discussions are normally done with increasing colons. You use one more colon than the guy behind you, and keep all of your paragraphs on the same level. Also, you can sig your posts by hitting the Tilde(~) key four times. Evilexecutive (talk) 00:18, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Cool, thanks. So now that this discussion is more or less done do I erase it and edit my original post based on the current consensus? Josman (talk) 00:31, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Never delete content from discussion pages. It's a very, very strong taboo on this wiki. People will be livid with you if you do. Evilexecutive (talk) 01:32, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Seriously, even with my own discussions? How are the discussion pages not filled up with a series of increasingly page-right oriented rage? Can I delete this conversation with the mutual agreement between us, the participants, agreeing that it's sloppy and shouldn't be here? Josman (talk) 02:05, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Deleting the discussion isn't a thing people here tend to do, even if the issue at hand gets solved. I don't know, it's technically a conversation - you may say something you didn't mean to, but it stays nevertheless. If for example you posted something in the actual page and another used refuted it and then you were to engage in repeated edits trying to one upp each other, that'd be an Edit War and that's a rather detrimental thing - better to solve that in the Talk page, even if it becomes 82 pages long xD. Sometimes it's a good thing to look at an article's talk page to know the answers to questions you may have never asked. I mean, I never bothered to think about the nutritional needs of a space marine, I thought whenever they were hungry they ate whatever was at hand and digested it, tiger shark style. But now I know, thanks to you. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 21:38, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

On another somewhat unrelated note where do plot wholes go? A lot of the time I see them in the discussion section but in other places they're put in the actual wiki page itself. I'm planning on condensing the food problems with marines into a more compact, tidy version. Does that go on this discussion page or the main page? What's the rule here?

Plot holes, or whatever you don't agree with should go on the talk page. Sometimes people make edits based on what they alone percieve to be, and it's easy to skip things when you have a biased opinion. I'd say making edits based on opinions without discussing it first can hurried, but it's not like you're making an irreparable scar on the page - someone will sooner or later contribute their own point of view to the article, it's what makes wikis grow. About adding new sections like Space Marine nutrition or something like that I'd say does amerit a previous talk, as well as opinions that aren't immediately related to a page but that still have something to do with it. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 21:38, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Scientific basis for the Omophagea?

Does anyone know where the inspiration for the Omophagea geneseed-organ came from? To those who are unaware, the Omophagea is an organ implanted into the upper spinal cord and nervous system that allows a space marine to learn by eating. For example a marine could kill and eat a world's local herbivores and over time he might begin to instinctively learn about the world's plant life or weather patterns.

Most of the space marine implants are based off of real science to at least some degree. Things like hormone controlled muscle growth and strengthening bones with artificial substances can actually be done today. Most of the geneseed-organs appear to be inspired by some real-life process. My question is if anyone knows if there is a precedent for diet based learning in complex multicellular organisms. There are types of single celled life forms who do something somewhat like this, but it's simpler, smaller scale, and takes its "information" from almost infinitely simpler food than what a marine would eat. Josman (talk) 19:16, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Dark Angels and Wolves?

In the six books starring Ragnar Blackmane particularly the fifth book, Sons of Fenris, the space wolves don't have a "friendly rivalry" with the dark angels as this page suggests, they have a feud that sometimes breaks out into open warfare. Lexicanum and the Warhammer wiki support the idea that they're blooded rivals, not friendly competitors, but at the same time I don't want to just throw out what the previous author created. Thoughts? Josman (talk) 03:10, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

If it's verifiable and trustworthy (Which does describe Lexicanum, but not so much warhammer40k.wikia), go for it. All wikis when you come down to it are about removing or changing old work if you think you can make it better. Just for the love of the Emperor don't strikethrough the old to put in the new.--The Forgefather

And here we are again

• "It's neither informative (beyond the already-obvious "spergy fanboys are bad, m'kay."), nor particularly entertaining. And the fact that some people like a faction and others don't isn't really a part of "gaming culture.".

Let's get a few things clear here: you don't find it entertaining, which is fine. You believe it should be entertaining in a way you feel is entertaining, which is bullshit. Just because you disagree does not mean that you can just delete entire paragraphs of others without consent; not even if you're the oh mighty Forgefather. None of us have that ability.

Also, Space Marine being the focal point of everything 40k, and often being the maypole all other factions must dance around is VERY MUCH a part of the gaming culture. Have you ever been in a discussion with someone about Space Marines? Have you even met people who have different opinions on Space Marines? I can assure you, we're out here. Not that you should think like us; the paragraph about Marine Fanboys just describes them and their impact on the culture in general.

Lastly; what's wrong with Mezmerro's paragraph about the quantity of Marines in universe? That's a totally valid paragraph explaining something extremely viable for the entire setting; and yet you removed it.

You need to hark up some actual arguments besides "I don't agree" (which is viable, but can't stand alone). Just deleting things like that is very explecitely not what we do, unless it's stuff like strikeouts of entire segments. TheWiseDane (talk) 21:51, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

• • //Just because you disagree does not mean that you can just delete entire paragraphs of others without consent; not even if you're the oh mighty Forgefather. None of us have that ability.// "If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, then do not submit it here." That's site policy, not my words. Anyone and everyone does have that ability, otherwise it wouldn't be a wiki site.

You haven't clearly defined what "gaming culture" is, so I won't bother addressing that any further.

//Have you ever been in a discussion with someone about Space Marines? Have you even met people who have different opinions on Space Marines? I can assure you, we're out here. Not that you should think like us; the paragraph about Marine Fanboys just describes them and their impact on the culture in general.// Non sequitur, what I or anyone else thinks of Space Marines is irrelevant to why the paragraph is bad.

There are several reasons that passage doesn't belong on the page. First and foremost, the page is about Space Marines, not fans of space marines. Other flaws aside, it simply isn't related to the article. My personal opinion never factored into this (and I suspect it isn't near as different from yours as you make it out to be, but that's neither here nor there), but I'm glad you brought opinion up, because that's all this paragraph is. No substance, just a bunch of generalized statements about a group of people. I'm sure you and plenty others would object if I suddenly added two paragraphs to the Tau page saying how every Tau fan is an obnoxious weeaboo that's plays a sci-fi race in a fantasy setting (no, this isn't something I'd post, it's just an example, as are all of the following), or if the Tyranid page said that all 'nid players were ignorant casuals that don't know anything about Sci-Fi outside of the movie Alien. Trying to put personal likes and dislikes into the wiki will only lead to edit wars as the inevitable detractors turn up, or even worse, strike-through wars.--The Forgefather