Talk:The Imperium of Man

This page is more insecure about the Imperium's obvious fascism than a closeted gay is about their sexuality

If you'd like to fix the page, go right ahead, just make sure not.to paint the entirety of it with the same brush because the Imperium isn't run the same across every world. I suspect this warning is what you're referring to though. -- Triacom (talk) 23:48, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

The Imperium is feudal, not fascist. Autocracy isn't the sole defining characteristic of fascism, and Imperial authority doesn't demand a single form of government from its holdings anyway. --85.203.44.98 00:24, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes, autocracy is not the defining characteristic of fascism (though it is a defining characteristic), but nor is feudalism mutually exclusive to fascism.--Panadoltdv (talk) 00:39, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

And Feudalism doesn't describe the Imperium anyway because its missing the key part of fealty to a lord as a vassal. You may take your orders from a planetary governor segmentum commander or whatever, but you owe your loyalty and fealty to the State. The Governor is a representative of the Imperium, not the person you give your oath to, which instead is the state itself. That describes fascism. --Panadoltdv (talk) 00:47, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

"And Feudalism doesn't describe the Imperium anyway because its missing the key part of fealty to a lord as a vassal." Very important question, but do you know who the Emperor is? -- Triacom (talk) 01:27, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

But the Imperium is no longer governed by the will of the Emperor, in fact the Horus Heresy books goes out of its way to point out that the Emperor is ideologically different from the Imperium. The Emperor has become just another figurative representation of the state. Besides, that's not what I was referring to anyway. A single Monarch that everybody swears fealty isn't really feudalism either, look at Napoleons Empire, the Roman Empire or North Korea.--49.179.18.252 02:12, 3 April 2020 (UTC) ----

As far as anyone in the setting is concerned (with the exception of Guilliman) it is. The Emperor and his loyal sons are the only ones who are at the top of the ladder, while everyone is some rungs down from them, as well as one another. To spell it out, the Emperor and his sons are the nobility, planetary governors are the vassals, and the citizens of the planets are their peasants who provide a tithe of food, goods or labour (most notably in the form of military service) in exchange for military protection. It quite literally is feudalism, and after the Emperor became unable to leave the Throne it was ruled over by lesser nobles (the High Lords). Since you're trying to point out how it's fascism instead and likely would try bringing up the time when there were no Primarchs around, then I'll point out it wasn't fascism then either. Everyone in power is held accountable by somebody else in power and every time somebody has abused their power or tried to institute a truly fascist system they've been executed or assassinated. In addition, aspects of their government have limits on your term (the Inquisitorial Representative comes to mind) and even the High Lords need to put matters to a vote before moving forward with their actions. If you want to look at individual planets and how they can be fascistic, then that's fine, however that only works until you remember that an Inquisitor can show up whenever they want to and immediately kill the dictator for whatever reason they want, and in turn can be held accountable for their actions by other Inquisitors. -- Triacom (talk) 03:03, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Just because there is a hierarchy does not mean it is a Feudalistic society. Your hierarchy of planetary governors pretty much resembles the Roman Empire or the Roman Republic are either of those a feudal society? It is the concept of the state, either the Roman Republic or the Empire that makes them differ. A feudal society is one where the "realm" or "kingdom" is defined by the relationships between the rulers and its vassals. The realm is the network of people intertwined through marriage and oaths. The territory of the imperium is "owned" by the abstract concept of the nation state, the planetary governors are the state. Vassals of a Lord are not the Lord.

"Just because there is a hierarchy does not mean it is a Feudalistic society." Quite right, what makes it a feudal society is that specific hierarchy, unless you mean to prove that feudal societies did not use that form of hierarchy. Let's take this for a walk though: "A feudal society is one where the "realm" or "kingdom" is defined by the relationships between the rulers and its vassals." That is exactly how the Imperium is defined, if you're going to try and argue further that the Emperor isn't considered the most important presence within it and that every citizen regardless of status is not supposed to view themselves in relation to how they serve him, then I'm going to call you ignorant of the setting. "The realm is the network of people intertwined through marriage and oaths.*" *Citation needed, last I checked a realm was nothing without territory. "Vassals of a Lord are not the Lord." Not even sure why you're bringing this up, nobody was saying that. -- Triacom (talk) 06:13, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

But I just pointed out an example of a state that uses this specific hierarchy but isn't a Feudal society, the Roman Republic and the Roman Empire, pretty much every colonial empire also had this as well, the Nazis did and America immediately after WW2 did as well. Like you haven't specified a type of hierarchy either, you just said there is a hierarchy, which is why I can point out so many diverse and broad societies that also fit it. You do not understand my point about territories, they're still there but the "boundaries" of a nation are the relationships and ties between the ruler and lords. Like this is the specific hierarchy i'm referring to, its not a hirarchy of political offices like in the Imperium or a modern nation, its a hierarchy of Great Houses and Families.--49.180.11.137 07:44, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

No, you didn't. Last I checked the Roman Republic and Roman Empire did not worship their leader and view them as above all others, to the point where their lives were defined based on how they were in relation to him. Now to address this bit: "Like you haven't specified a type of hierarchy either, you just said there is a hierarchy-" You fucking liar. Here's what I told you: The Emperor and his loyal sons are the only ones who are at the top of the ladder, while everyone is some rungs down from them, as well as one another. To spell it out, the Emperor and his sons are the nobility, planetary governors are the vassals, and the citizens of the planets are their peasants who provide a tithe of food, goods or labour (most notably in the form of military service) in exchange for military protection. It quite literally is feudalism. That's the hierarchy I described, I literally spelled it out for you, and if you don't know what that sort of hierarchy is (despite me spelling it out for you twice now), then you know nothing about feudalism. -- Triacom (talk) 07:59, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

It ain't hard to reveal the fascism of the empire. Its a state based of the Roman Empire that demands ideological purity. bing bong bongo boom...... fascism. --Panadoltdv (talk) 05:29, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

We're both alive and would like to remain that way. bing bong bongo boom...... we are literally the same person. Seriously though that is such a terrible and ignorant examination of the setting that ignores 90% of what's in it, all it does is make you come off as a dumbass trying to sound smart. -- Triacom (talk) 06:13, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

That's not a good analogy because ideology and consciousness are two different things. In a very simple model the fact were both alive and would like to remain that way means we have very similar ideologies, so yeah if you believed that and I believed that you can say we have similar outlooks/ideologies/worldviews. The analogy your making is that you think im saying the Imperium of man IS the Nazi Party or the Italian National Fascist Party which i'm not.--49.180.11.137 07:27, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

It's meant to be a terrible analogy because the original analogy was a terrible analogy. I've already covered how there's oversight in nearly every branch of the Imperium except for the Emperor, which the original analogy conveniently ignores and which would also prevent it from being a fascist government as a whole. -- Triacom (talk) 07:47, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

No More Fan Theories

Deleted a whole bunch of useless crap with no lore support. Someone wrote a lot of what is essentially fan theory concerning the Imperium's governance, and it has no place here. Do not put it back.

Please tell me what's wrong with the The Reality of the Imperium. Everything you're removing is correctly put on the main page and none of it is a fan theory, so I figure we can start with the first section. What do you think is made up by the fans? -- Triacom (talk) 03:15, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

>Please tell me what's wrong I just did. >Everything you're removing is correctly put on the main page How do you mean, "correctly?" Just because it's there, doesn't mean it's correct or that it belongs. >none of it is a fan theory Yes it is, because none of it is directly supported by the lore. It's all wild inferences, baseless assumptions, and massive jumping to conclusions.

Which part do you think isn't supported by the lore? If you seriously think the answer is all of it, then I'm afraid to tell you but you don't know a thing about the lore. -- Triacom (talk) 03:31, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

If you have specific quotes or passages in books to support the wild inferences, baseless assumptions, and massive jumping to conclusions contained in that rambling assortment of nonsense, then by all means provide them. Otherwise, it is all fan theory, and you're projecting a very personal, individual view of the lore onto a page that should be as objective as possible. Headcanon, so to speak. A sociopolitical screed that boils down to "no actually, the Imperium is good" is not only directly counter to the lore, it is demonstrative of an outside agenda and a vested interest in pushing a certain point of view. Best to simply let the lore speak for itself.

99% of it comes from the core rulebooks, if you'd just read the lore sections. The other 1% comes from the RPG manuals where it describes the world's you can go to and the backstories of your characters. Those are good places to start if you want to read what's established in this universe, then after that you'll want to read the black library novels, the army books, or even just look up a list of stuff like sanctioned xenos species. For example, according to you, Grox would not be a thing even though it's one of the most common livestock in the Imperium. Once you've done that get back to me and we can start going over how stuff like agri-worlds, feudal worlds, savage worlds and developing world's. I'll even point out the page numbers in the books if you can't find anything about these somehow. Normally I'd start with a more precise quote or page number, but in your case you need to read the second half of every core rulebook ever made. -- Triacom (talk) 03:48, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

The rulebooks and lore never mention real-world analogues or makes comparisons, so that's half the material gone already. Everything else is a judgment call that the lore itself never makes, and so should not be given space on this page. "For example, according to you, Grox would not be a thing" What the heck do you mean by this? Sounds like you're grasping at straws. But to continue your example, everyone knows that grox *are* a thing...but if you claimed that grox had a certain physiology or were a certain size, weight, or coloring, you'd be making things up, because that information is never given in the lore. It would be a wild inference, a baseless assumption, a massive leap to conclusions. That is the general pattern for the rest of the section I removed. Again, keep personal canon out of the page.

Do you think you cannot use a real world comparison unless the book does it? Why is that disqualifying in your opinion? Everything else isn't a judgement call, it's taken from what descriptions of life on those worlds are like. For example, can you tell me what life on an agri-world is like? As for the Grox, you deleted the part that said the Imperium allows certain xenos species to live and called it a fan theory, so you are claiming Grox aren't a thing because they are xenos species. Same goes with other species like Jokearo, who even Inquisitors will keep around because they're useful. Nobody has added any personal canon to the page, they've only gone by what the army books, core books, and RPG books have said. -- Triacom (talk) 04:04, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

If there isn't a direct quote in support, it is not "taken from what descriptions of life on those worlds are like." If it's not the literal words of the lore, it is an assumption, a fan theory...a meme. There was not a single direct quote in the entirety of the section I removed. Also, the Imperium doesn't allow *sapient* xenos species to live. Grox are a species of livestock animals. In addition, the personal decisions of individual Inquisitors is not by any means representative of the Imperium's laws or policies, especially considering the Inquisitors themselves can and do act above and contrary to said laws or policies, and may be punished by other Inquisitors for doing so. They are the exception that proves the rule. You are simply further demonstrating the unsuitably wide tolerance you have for non-canon interpretations of the lore, most likely in support of an outside agenda. Such things have no place here.

Everything in those sections is directly taken from the lore, literally everything. "Also, the Imperium doesn't allow *sapient* xenos species to live." First of all, that wasn't what you removed. Secondly you're wrong, the Black Templars are on record as letting an alien species live who were worshiping "the voice of the emperor" and Jokearo are left alive both in and out of Inquisitorial custody. The Tau were also left alive even though the Imperium could just declare Exterminatus on their worlds. "You are simply further demonstrating the unsuitably wide tolerance you have for non-canon interpretations of the lore." Then tell me, what is life like for an average citizen of a feudal world? Somehow I doubt you know, otherwise you wouldn't have deleted it. Also what agenda do you think I have in trying to get you to read about the setting you're ignorant on? -- Triacom (talk) 04:17, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

"The Black Templars are on record as letting an alien species live" I am familiar with the passage in question from the Deathwatch RPG. It was related as a story that voidmen tell each other, without verification. Yet more evidence of your stretching existing lore to fit your personal headcanon. "The Tau were also left alive even though the Imperium could just declare Exterminatus on their worlds." Further demonstration of your unfamiliarity with the lore. A refusal to commit Exterminatus on habitable planets is not by any means evidence of the Imperium's tolerance of xenos, simply a strategic decision cognizant of material resource scarcity. This is a prime example of what I mean through all of this. You are trying desperately to justify a highly personal view of the lore that is simply not borne out with any real support. "What is life like on a feudal world?" Sepheris Secundus is a great example. It seems that your accusations of lore ignorance are a projection of your own unfamiliarity with the established setting and a petulant unwillingness to educate yourself. Your motivations and agenda continue to be highly suspect.

"I am familiar with the passage in question from the Deathwatch RPG." No you are not, because that comes from the 4th edition Black Templars Codex, not the Deathwatch RPG. Their choice to let the Tau live is also not an example of scarcity, because the Tau's planets are not even a drop in the pond to the amount of territory the Imperium holds, and allowing them to remain is an example of tolerating them because they can reseed planets after Exterminatus and make them habitable again, sans the original inhabitants. If you want to find an example of this look up Slasher Beasts, which were introduced to a planet after Exterminatus to help create a new ecosystem for it (only for them to accidentally turn it into a death world). That you seem unaware of all of this is why I'm calling you ignorant. I also like how you had to cherry pick to find possibly the worst feudal world (everything else is a step up, so it is not a good example), and if you knew the lore you'd know that Sepheris Secundus is a mining world first and a feudal world second. -- Triacom (talk) 04:37, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

"Mining world first, feudal world second" That is more fan theory nonsense. It's not anything first or second, it is both simultaneously. Also, this is further proof that your accusations of cherrypicking are hypocritical in the extreme; that's what you've been doing the whole time, taking isolated snippets of fluff and extrapolating your headcanon and fan theories about the wider Imperium from them, when they are simply exceptions that prove the rule. "Slasher beasts" are evidence against your argument, not in favor. The fact that they turned it into a death world post-Exterminatus is proof that they cannot reliably re-terraform such planets, and that using Exterminatus in any situation except as a last-ditch solution is headcanon influenced by memes rather than solid lore support.

It's not fan theory, it's a difference between form and function, not to mention it is still a terrible example because I asked you to describe the average citizen's life on a feudal world and you went out of your way to find the worst possible one. In no way is Sepheris Secundus a good example of all feudal worlds, unless you want to put your money where your mouth is and prove why it's the average. that's what you've been doing the whole time, taking isolated snippets of fluff and extrapolating your headcanon and fan theories about the wider Imperium from them, when they are simply exceptions that prove the rule. Then what is the rule, where are you getting it from, and can you prove to me that these are only minor examples? If so, start with why the Craftworld Eldar are still around, and then tell me about the Tau. "Slasher beasts" are evidence against your argument, not in favor. The fact that they turned it into a death world post-Exterminatus is proof that they cannot reliably re-terraform such planets- Holy shit, you're so far off the mark. They fully terraformed the planet and reseeded the world, they only screwed up with the Slasher Beasts because they were so well-suited to the world that they killed and ate the vast majority of life on it and so they repurposed the planet as a hunting/training range instead of killing all of the Slasher Beasts, which would've solved the problem. If they didn't try to introduce Slasher Beasts then there would've been no issues at all. using Exterminatus in any situation except as a last-ditch solution is headcanon influenced by memes rather than solid lore support. Except in many instances it's not used as a last resort, but as a practical or a more expedient measure. The Imperium could've declared Exterminatus the first time they fought the Tau, and I remember there was one Inquisitor in particular who really wanted to, but the people with him didn't want to do that because they wanted to wipe out the Tau in a way they saw as more honourable rather than expedient. Even in more recent lore, when the Imperium attacked Agrellan the book outright tells you the purpose wasn't to liberate the planet, but to punish the Tau. They could've done their firewall stunt right off the gate but they didn't because they'd rather fight them in person, and in both cases, only when their resources were needed elsewhere did they pull back (and in the second case, set up the fire wall even though they didn't really need to do it). -- Triacom (talk) 18:44, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

"In no way is Sepheris Secundus a good example of all feudal worlds" Except that you cannot prove that it is an exception. "Then what is the rule, where are you getting it from, and can you prove to me that these are only minor examples? If so, start with why the Craftworld Eldar are still around, and then tell me about the Tau." Gibberish. What are you even talking about? And whatever your point is, you must demonstrate that it applies to your own work as well...and you cannot. "Except in many instances it's not used as a last resort, but as a practical or a more expedient measure." Except every rulebook has said otherwise. You have no canon support for this statement, only baseless inferences. You really need to read more basic lore. "Some gibberish about tactics against the Tau" None of which are relevant to the discussion about Exterminatus, given that Exterminatus is a last-ditch solution. You're really not good at this. Your headcanon is not official lore, and your continued obstinacy betrays your ideological motivations and outside agenda. This fanwank of yours does not belong here.

Except that you cannot prove that it is an exception. Sure I can, the Guide to the Calixis Sector highlights how it is one of the most brutal worlds with one of the greatest class divides in the entire sector, and Dark Heresy describes how the reign of its monarchs is especially brutal. If you'd like to say it is the average, I'd love to see you try to prove that. Gibberish. What are you even talking about? You keep saying that every alien species the Imperium is aware of and doesn't wipe out is an exception to the rule, so I'd like to see your source for this "rule". Except every rulebook has said otherwise. Except for the rulebooks I mentioned, specifically the Tau book and Mont'ka, so no, not every book has said that. You have no canon support for this statement, only baseless inferences. Except for the part where it's outright stated that they didn't use Exterminatus on the Tau because they found it distasteful, but I see you're content to ignore that. Nothing I'm writing is headcanon or inferred, however I think you should look in the mirror because several times now you've proven you're ignorant on the subject, especially when you did something as stupid as hearing that the AdMech terraformed a world post-Exterminatus and assumed this meant they could not do what they just did. -- Triacom (talk) 19:27, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

The Guide to the Calixis Sector refers to the extremity of feudalism in the context of its low technological level and sociological organization, not simply to its politics. In this sense it is purposefully evocative of the Feudal Era of Europe, rather than a descriptor of its extremity in relation to other examples of political feudalism. In order to argue otherwise in good-faith, you would need to provide a counter-example of what you believe is actually the average. There is no reason to consider Sepheris Secundus atypical of the norm, but then again, you are not arguing in good faith...only in pursuit of your outside agenda. "You keep saying that every alien species the Imperium is aware of and doesn't wipe out is an exception to the rule, so I'd like to see your source for this rule." Sapient alien species exist despite the Imperium's explicitly stated pan-xenocidal dogma for the same reason Exterminatus is not the go-to solution: scarcity of resources mandates different tactics, but to the same end of xenocide. It is a disingenuous inference, a work of pure headcanon, to say that because the Imperium does not outright Exterminatus every alien homeworld or expend precious resources in an all-out assault where such a thing would not be fruitful, means that Imperial dogma is not explicitly xenocidal. But as I said, you are not arguing in good faith. Disingenuity, hypocrisy, and poor argumentation without support are the hallmarks of your rants.

In this sense it is purposefully evocative of the Feudal Era of Europe- Well look at you, you little hypocrite, just earlier you were saying you can't use any real-world comparisons unless it's done first in the setting, and now here you are with your "fan theories", as you'd called this kind of comparison in the past. In order to argue otherwise in good-faith, you would need to provide a counter-example of what you believe is actually the average. Very well, to show you I'm not going to cherry-pick, I'll allow you to pick literally any other known Feudal World in the setting and we'll go over them. Find me a single Feudal World that's as bad as Sepheris Secundus. Sapient alien species exist despite the Imperium's explicitly stated pan-xenocidal dogma for the same reason Exterminatus is not the go-to solution: scarcity of resources mandates different tactics- Wait a minute, but if this is the case, why are you claiming what you just said is a fan-theory? This is literally what was on the main page and you keep erasing it because you claim it isn't true and isn't backed up by any lore in-universe. Tell me, are you lying here or are you lying there? Because you can't claim something is true when you're also claiming on the main page that it is false. It is a disingenuous inference, a work of pure headcanon, to say that because the Imperium does not outright Exterminatus every alien homeworld or expend precious resources in an all-out assault where such a thing would not be fruitful, means that Imperial dogma is not explicitly xenocidal. Then it's a good thing I never said that, I said what I said to lead you to bring up how the Imperium spares certain species for a later date, because that's what you're removing from the main page and claiming isn't true. Finally, what do you think my "outside agenda" is, aside from trying to educate you on the setting and correcting you whenever you get things wrong? -- Triacom (talk) 20:02, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Considering how the only thing you have in rebuttal is what boils down to "no u," I think my point is made. Keep your fanwank off 1d4chan.

Dude, you're claiming your own argument is fanfiction. You're claiming the Imperium doesn't wipe out every xenos species because they lack the resources to do so, and then claim that it's fanfiction to write that on the main page, so which is it? -- Triacom (talk) 20:15, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Keep your fanwank off 1d4chan.

Does the Imperium choose to leave certain xenos species alone out of scarcity or not? Because you claim they do, but then delete that from the main page and claim they don't. -- Triacom (talk) 20:19, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

Just to be clear

I'm seeing a lot of edits to the main page, and not much editing of this page, and what there is above being summed up by the final message being "Keep your fanwank off 1d4chan." which is why I'm starting to think "asshole vandal". Saarlacfunkel (talk) 23:31, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

One wonders why other individuals stood by and let this fanwanker Triacom try to pass off his personal headcanon as fact without copious quotes from the lore.

Because your "objections" above amount only to "no u", from what I can tell. What, specifically, is wrong with the section? Saarlacfunkel (talk) 00:46, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

I wasn't the one who wrote those sections anon, it's not headcanon to take facts from the lore and put them on the main page. As I pointed out in the above section, you're deleting stuff you say is correct and calling it fanfiction. -- Triacom (talk) 03:28, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm not the person deleting that section, but I see no reason why the entire section should stay on the page. It's an interpretation, a non-objective viewpoint that ignores the origins as part of a Parody rather and tries to find "the good" in the horror. the whole point of the setting is be seen as horrific, not to try to rationalize or normalize it. the whole point is that its a mirror of society. that's why the characters in the setting react the way they do- they HAVE normalized it, and we're to see how the society that made them and reflect on how shitty it really is. --RdV, 17:22, 13 June 2020 (PST)

I see one good reason: It's the pragmatic reason things are the way they are. 40k is stupid, but the way the Imperium is the way it is is not really part of that stupidity, and showing the underlying logic allows one to better appreciate the results. As to "40k is parody", it started out that way, and many of its pecularities can be traced to that origin, but given that GW takes it seriously much of the time, we might as well do so as well. Saarlacfunkel (talk) 00:34, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

The only reason to take it seriously is to make sure it never happens in reality. --RdV, 17:57, 13 June 2020 (PST)

Saarlacfunkel is dead right about how we should address the setting, GW loves to tell us how horrible everything in the setting is, but there's plenty of examples where that isn't the case. It's not interpretation to point out that planets like Armageddon or Cadia or Sepheris Secundus are in the minority, that can easily be done by reading the lore and seeing that the majority of planets aren't war-torn, factory driven mining hellholes. If you want to see a good example of this, just look up the realm of Ultramar. -- Triacom (talk) 03:28, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes, Ultramar, where a Junta formed by an uncompromising warlord, created a systemic society geared towards one goal- war. Where the nominal leading planet trades military security in exchange for vital goods and personnel the world is incapable or unwilling to invest in due to its obsessive glorification of the "locally made" post-humans. Recruits who don't make the grade can become honored servants and administrators, while those who are simply too old for the process can instead be "decently trained" in their redshirt "locally raised" armies sent to intercept threats their overlords are simply too busy to give a damn about, and civilians literally worship the military around them thanks to generations of a lack of free thinking and blind adherence to tradition. Instead of actually trying to equalize these planets by investing in infrastructure to make them each independent and fully capable of self rule, they are locked in a semi-autonomous kingdom in servitude for the duration. And that is nominally the BEST subsector the overruling government has. So you tell me that the most well-to-do world a setting has to offer involves burying your head in the sand, giving your children to the state in order to make living weapons and an inability to better the situation out of fear and ignorance, and you're damn right I'm calling it a parody. --RdV, 22:32 13 June 2020 (PST)

You're almost there, you're just missing a few things. While it's a parody, civilian life in Ultramar doesn't suck like GW keeps hyping up. You're born, you work, you get a family, there might be a war but probably not in your lifetime (or even your grandkids lifetime), and if there isn't you'll probably die of natural causes. Doesn't sound very grimdark does it? It's not hard to give other planets like agri-worlds and developing world's the same analysis and come to the same conclusion. I also fail to see why doing that is a bad thing just because anyone can argue the setting is a parody. -- Triacom (talk) 05:46, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Ultramar is Ultramar and not representative of the wider Imperium.

Oh so it's fine to use Sepheris Secundus as a representative of the wider Imperium, but not 500 other worlds? I actually do agree that it isn't representative of the wider Imperium, however this does highlight how you're cherry-picking to a ridiculous degree. -- Triacom (talk) 17:54, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm with RdV for all the reasons he gave, none of which have been adequately refuted. Triacom's morass of headcanon is his own interpretation, not official GW stance on the Imperium or even a reasonable conclusion to draw.

You refuted them yourself, you claimed info on the main page is true, but you're still removing it anyway. -- Triacom (talk) 03:56, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

I should also point out again I didn't write any of the sections that you're deleting. Claiming it's my "morass of headcanon" and my "own interpretation, not official GW stance" is wrong on multiple levels. -- Triacom (talk) 04:20, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Hi all I just wondered if there was anyway that this edit war could be ended. The mass deletion thing is getting old.

Personally I feel the text itself is a little long and that it wouldn't hurt to condense the general "Imperial not all bad" point, which I believe is worth making, down a little and then everyone maybe leave it alone for a bit. Otherwise if not can someone just lock the whole lot of it complete with the wall of text so that the guys hellbent on deleting it and not really engaging in any reasoning as to why will not be able to mess with the bloody thing. After all I thought that we had Pol & SJW pages for people that wanted edit wars ; ) Cheers --Because (talk) 23:59, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

You can ask Root and AssistantWikifag to lock it and/or ban the guy doing mass deletions, and besides that there's nothing you can do other than undoing them. -- Triacom (talk) 00:12, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

We have been asking for the mods to lock the page but they still haven't done anything about it. I also agree that we should have a discussion about shortening the page.--2601:203:480:4C60:2190:A86E:19E1:EC73 00:34, 17 June 2020 (UTC)