Talk:Black Legion

From 1d4chan

This page is mostly complaining about Abbadon, which is pretty tired and doesn't do anything for readers who might want to actually learn about the Black Legion and why they could be cool. Feels like the page as a whole could use a revamp (and like, 80 fewer uses of "fail" as a prefix.)

Nothing's stopping you if you want to get that revamp started. --Newerfag (talk) 17:30, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Also should this page be split somewhat from the Luna Wolves, since there is a lot to say that the Sons of Horus are still seperate from the Black Legion?

No, there's a lot to say about most Legions pre and post-heresy, they're no different. -- Triacom (talk) 05:15, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
Okay but the Black Legion is not the Sons of Horus. And even if they are the same Legion this page should have twice as much content as it does.
And none of the pre-heresy legions are the same as the post-heresy legions. -- Triacom (talk) 16:11, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
Fine jack-ass. Dodge the entire idea with sarcasm, people love that.
I'm not being sarcastic. Every legion is different from how they were pre and post-heresy, the only thing that the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus/Black Legion have over them is that they changed their name. If you think there's too little on the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus/Black Legion then feel free to add more. -- Triacom (talk) 20:18, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
right, every legion is made up of members of six different other legions after venturing into the Eye. Not to mention the Black Legion's Battle of Harmony the Sons of Horus are outnumbered 3-1 by Thousand Sons Rubrics. Black Legion must secretly be a Thousand Sons Warband. God the Alpha Legion must have it rough now they're made up entirely by Luna Wolves, but they're still Iron Warriors!
First of all, don't delete what I've said here. Secondly, the Black Legion is entirely different to the Sons of Horus/Luna Wolves, just as the Death Guard are entirely different pre and post-heresy, just as the Thousand Sons are, just as the Emperor's Children are, etc. Focusing on how they're different to all the others is ignoring how each legion is different to how they used to be. We don't have separate pre-heresy pages for the other legions, why would we change that for the Black Legion? -- Triacom (talk) 21:20, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
  • by your logic of a name change, let's examine a note in the Chaos Codex. A splinter of Sons of Horus was a big challenger to the Black Legion during the first four to five Black Crusades. But in your version, the event that changed that can be summed up as: "Then Abbadon killed the leader of the Black Legion as he had the Black Legion bow as the leader of the Black Legion watched dying, before the Black Legion swore fealty to Abbadon and the Black Legion joined the Black Legion." I mean the name was changed but they're still the Black Legion apparently? Your argument also implies that that a great deal of successor chapters are actually still the old Legions too, just with a name change. (P.S. Any deletions were accidental)
Do you seriously think the Sons of Horus were the only legion with splinter groups? Sorry to tell you but the other legions are loaded with them. The Thousand Sons even had one who were desperately trying to restore Magnus to his pre-heresy state before he found them and crushed them, turning them into his puppets (that was revealed in Wrath of Magnus). I also did not state or even remotely suggest that successor chapters are the same as the old legions but with different names, in fact I said the opposite: none of the pre-heresy legions are the same as the post-heresy legions. That goes doubly for the chapters as they had entirely different reformations, restructuring and were fragmented into many different groups with their own beliefs and ideals. -- Triacom (talk) 21:46, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Still sound like you're entire argument is "They're the same but different but the same but different." Except Abbadon formed the Black Legion from hundreds of warbands and other individuals and many and more are not related by Gene-seed or loyalty to Horus Lupercal. The Night Lords and their splinters are still mostly descended from Konrad Curze. The Prodigal Sons are still comprised mostly from the Gene-seed of Magnus. But Abbadon directly has stated that the Black Legion is not about the ties to failed fathers. And also has GW ever EVER referred to the Black Legion and Sons of Horus as the same? Do they refer to the Black Legion as the sixteenth?
My argument is: everyone legion is different, why should the Black Legion be given special treatment? -- Triacom (talk) 22:33, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
While I see no reason to create a new page for Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus, the Black Legion is special. It is a former Legion with as many non-Legion members as a warband like the Red Corsairs, almost certainly surpassing the non-Legion members of cult Legions like the World Eaters (who have renegades that take on their color scheme and symbol) and the Death Guard (who seem to regulate Plague Marines directly, or all Legions and warbands. --Kracked Mynd (talk) 23:11, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
Numbers aren't going to impress me, I fail to see how that makes them any different to the rest of the legions when we look at how much they've changed since the heresy. In what way is recruiting more members and gaining more non-legion members than any of the legions more important than any of the many ways those legions have also changed? -- Triacom (talk) 23:18, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
They are the quintessential Chaos Space Marines. They alone can unite the Legions towards Black Crusades and cohesively combine Marines (and humans, xenos, etc) of vastly different geneseed and background into a force of that scale. It isn't just about change, it is about power. --Kracked Mynd (talk) 23:29, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
Wow, it sounds like they should get their own page- oh wait. To get back on topic, what makes how the Black Legion changed from the Sons of Horus more special than how the Death Guard changed pre and post-heresy, or how the Thousand Sons changed pre and post-heresy, or how the Emperor's Children changed pre and post-heresy? Why would we give the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus their own page, and why would it be warranted instead of just recording what they were and what they now are? -- Triacom (talk) 23:41, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
"I see no reason to create a new page for Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus". There shouldn't be a separate page, and I've said that, however, taking the extreme that the Black Legion aren't more important and fundamentally different from other Legions is not a good position, which is what I called out. --Kracked Mynd (talk) 23:48, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
I want you to take a look back at what I said. At no point did I say they're not more important or that they're not completely different to the other legions, what I said is that the changes they went through are not by themselves unique enough to warrant a new page because each legion had their own unique changes as well. Splinter groups likewise are not unique to the Black Legion, because the other legions have them as well. That's all I said, I only looked at how they changed and was not comparing them to the other legions as a whole. If I wasn't clear about that at some point then I apologize, but you can trace back my argument to the central point that becoming something different during/after the heresy is not something unique to the Black Legion, neither is having splinter groups. -- Triacom (talk) 23:52, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
I do see that, and I most likely did misinterpret some of your explanation as a general comparison. Me disagreeing is no need to apologize, you're good. --Kracked Mynd (talk) 01:58, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
For the most part, the Black Legion is the latest incarnation of the Sons of Horus, which is why all the other ones are referred to as "Splinter groups". The Black Legion is seen as the main primary successor, even if it does recruit from most other primarch gene-sons these days more so than the other legions. That said, the various legions, not just the Sons of Horus, are different enough from their various incantations that the warhammer wikia saw fit to give each their own pages separate from what they later became. Even Terra-Wars Salamanders were vastly different from Post-Vulcan Salamanders, etc. Though the wiki still lumps in all the Sons of Horus info and Dusk Raider info with the Black Legion and Death Guard info etc as background info because in the end, they are the "latest incarnation", so to speak. 23:15, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
So if another wiki does it we should do it? I fail to see how that's a good argument, especially when we can just add a redirect to the pre-heresy part of the page. -- Triacom (talk) 23:18, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
Unless you add so much information to the pre-Heresy or Heresy parts of the page that it becomes impossible to navigate (as in, worse than the Elf or Vampire pages are now), this makes the most sense, both for reading and editing. --Kracked Mynd (talk) 23:26, 6 September 2019 (UTC)