Talk:Codex - Chaos Space Marines Angry Anarchist Edition

Discussions

• Everything up for discussion, as a basic rule the Angry Pirate either needs to agree with a change, or if you think a change I made is bad then I will (with a few exceptions) revert it back to how it is in the official release. Things that I might not want to change are things that go against core tenets of the Angry Initiative (like expanded randomization tables or reducing the pts costs of datasheets which I find to be clearly OP (like Wraith Knights or Gladius Strike Forces)). BTW The Angry Pirate wins edit wars, so don't even try me. The likelihood of mods citing with someone having done no prior work and just deciding something needs changing is miniscule, so even if I wasn't on 1d4chan multiple hours the end result is you getting banned or amusing me with your weak attempts of changing something through continuing to change something.

Changing my view of the cost of a unit can either be done by playing a couple of games with a unit or doing some math comparing it another unit (preferably both basic Tactical Marines and another unit that is similar to the one you want changed. Changing rules can be done by either showing me that the expansion of a rule makes the game so much more fun that it's worth any extra hassle it brings or by showing that the current rule can be shrinked without losing signifigant amounts of fun.

Finally anything that is vague or badly written you can just change yourself, unless it is an endemic problem (like what does "*All models may take x" mean? Is it the same as any model may or is it the same as the entire unit may?). Then you should suggest a change in the discussion page so I can work through all the codices at once when I have time instead of it taking half a decade like a certain corporation does) Angry Pirate (talk)

Format

• Put space between the numerals and pts like this (5 pts) instead of this (5pts).

Start each of your posts on this page with a *.

Start each line after the first with a :.

Do not indent your post. It makes it a hassle to read on smaller screens. This shows you what a hassle it is. This shows what a hassle it is. It really is a hassle. I view all my pages in half my screen so I can view a codex while writing shit and it is a hassle if you indent your posts.

Always post at the end of a comment chain, not in the middle.

Do not change the format before bringing it up in a discussion page. I manage more than 20 codices, while I appreciate you trying to add a cheat sheet for the profiles of units or adding hyperlinks between parts of a page, someone is going to have to do it for the other 20 pages, this guy -> Angry Pirate (talk)

Chaos Space Marine Legions

• Hoping you'll make fluffy and crunchy Traitor Legions lists because these is what Chaos currently lacks...and the Black Legion and Khorne Daemonkin supplements aren't enough. - Ben (talk) 09:00, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

• If you have any ideas please bring them forth. If you have the time you are free to add them in as well. Any help is much appreciated. - Angry Pirate (talk)
• Ya know what? I'll actually do something here. Just need to look up 3rd ED Chaos Marines Codex...OK, got it. - Ben (talk) 14:29, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Black Legion:

- Has Mark of Chaos Undivided.
- All units have a +1 to LD when compared to other Chaos armies, as well as the Hatred (Space Marines) USR.
- Can take Khorne Berserkers, Rubric Marines, Noise Marines and Plague Marines as Elites, as well a Sorcerers with the Marks of Tzeentch, Slaanesh and Nurgle if the Chaos Lord has the Mark of Chaos Undivided.
- Can re-roll ones while trying to pass any LD based tests.
- Icons of Chaos are free.

Alpha Legion:

- Has Mark of Chaos Undivided.
- Silent Movement: Models have the Scout and Move Through Cover USR.
- Assassination Orders: Models re-roll all ones To Hit against Characters and Independent Characters.
- Saboteur Tactics: Models gain a +1 to rolls on the Building Damage Table.

Iron Warriors:

- Has Mark of Chaos Undivided
- Besiegers: Models gain a +1 to rolls on the Building Damage Table and re-roll all ones with heavy weapons against buildings.
- Gods of Destruction: Havocs, Chosen and Chosen Terminators have the Tank Hunter and Monster Hunter USR.
- Artillery Specialists: Can take Defilers in Squadrons of three.
- Obliterator Cults: A single squad of Obliterators can be taken as a Troop Choice in the Main Detachment.
- Warsmiths: Iron Warriors, instead of more traditional Chaos Lords, have Warsmiths. Warsmiths are Chaos Lords in every single respect, except that they additionally have Servo-Arms that allow them to repair vehicles. Chaos Lords can be upgraded to Warsmiths for 20 pts and gain a Servo-Arm for repairing vehicles.

Night Lords:

- Nostraman Heritage: Models gain the Night Vision and Scout USR.
- Fear of The Darkness: Models gain the Fear USR and enemy models have to pass Fear tests with a -2 modifier.
- Skies of Terror: Can take Raptors as Troop Choice. Can take a single squad of Warp Talons as Troop Choice.

Word Bearers:

- Has Mark of Chaos Undivided.
- Can take Khorne Berserkers, Rubric Marines, Noise Marines and Plague Marines as Elites, as well a Sorcerers with the Marks of Tzeentch, Slaanesh and Nurgle if the Chaos Lord has the Mark of Chaos Undivided.
- Zealous Devotion: Models with the Champion of Chaos rule get to re-roll any result on the Chaos Boon Table as he wishes. Possessed get to re-roll any result on their Mutation Table. Dark Apostles have the range of their Demagogue extended to 12". 
- Army of The Damned: Possessed can be taken as Troops.

World Eaters:

- All models have only the Mark of Khorne.
- Violent Blows: All models re-roll ones To Hit and To Wound in close combat.
- Bloodstained Honour: Characters and Independent Characters can issue challenges and ALWAYS accept challenges. If the enemy model declines the challenge, then the model gains the Hatred USR against that model.
- Rage Beyond Reason: Elites and HQ Choices gain the Rampage USR.

Thousand Sons:

- All models have only the Mark of Tzeentch.
- Supreme Sorcerers: Sorcerers gain the Adamantium Will USR and re-roll once per turn ones and twos on the Perils of The Warp Table. 
- Sorcerous Guard: Can take a single five model squad of Aspiring Sorcerers for 290 pts as a HQ Choice that doesn't take up a slot, and add an extra five models for 58 pts per model. The entire squad has the Brotherhood of Sorcerers USR.
- Sorcerer Lord: Can upgrade your Sorcerer to a Sorcerer Lord for 75 pts. They gain a +1 to BS and Psyker Mastery 4.

Death Guard:

- All models have only the Mark of Nurgle.
- Rotted Determination: Elites and HQ Choices gain the Stubborn USR. Models that have the Fearless or Zealot USR don't gain the Stubborn USR. Infantry models from the Troops, Fast Attack and Heavy Support Choices instead re-roll LD based tests if they roll ones.
- Rot Hosts: Models gain the Feel No Pain USR.
- Aura of Pestilence: If a model is removed from the game as a casualty, put a Blast marker centrally over the place where the model was originally. All models that don't have the Mark of Nurgle suffer a S5 AP4 hit. They can still take a Armour Save.

Emperor's Children:

- All models have only the Mark of Slaanesh.
- Things Shall Get Loud NOW: Hellbrutes, Defilers, Predators and Land Raiders can be upgraded with Blastmasters to replace their standard weapons (Multi-Melta for Hellbrutes, Hades Autocannon for Defilers, Autocannons for Preadators and Lascannons and Twin-Linked Heavy Bolters for Land Raiders).
- Speed of Slaanesh: Models have a +1 to Initiative Seize.
- Temptation of Slaanesh: HQ Choices can attempt to tempt enemy models to come closer. Choose a squad/model in a range of 12". That squad/model must pass a LD test. If they fail, then they must move 6" towards the model that tempted them. Models affected by the Stubborn, Fearless or Zealot USR are immune to this.

• Thanks a lot buddy. I made some of them before seeing this but I will look through them while making the rest. - Angry Pirate (talk)

• No problem. - Ben (talk) 13:58, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

• On the topic of Black Legion, you could add the Merciless Fighers (all model does one additional attack at I 1 if you outnumber your enemy in melee) to put some more flavour in their cheeks instead of a lot of Leadership-buffs. Perhaps free Veterans of the Long War for all Characters, HQs and Chosen, too? TheWiseDane (talk) 15:55, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

• Here's a take on the Crimson Slaughter.

Crimson Slaughter.

- Slaves to the Voices: Possessed are Troops instead of Elites. Chosen, Chaos Terminators and HQs can choose to roll on the Vessels of Chaos table, and Possessed may re-roll any roll on the Vessels of Chaos table.

- Twisting Precence: All models except Bezerkers, Plague Marines, Sonic Marines and Rubric Marine gains Fear. If one of these units are charged by a unit without Fearless, that unit count as having Defensive Grenades during the Charge Phase.

- Young Renegades: No model may buy Veteran of the Long War. Models with VotLW already are allowed.

• I like this one. It gives me the impression that the vision of the ones charging the Crimson slaughter gets completely messed up due to some unnatural presence. I can almost taste the flavour. Slaves to the Voices seems a bit sick (perhaps give the options so that they may pay for it?) but I am uncertain. Close Combat is really bad at the moment and we'll have to fix that prior to really judging the power level of formations giving extra fighting power. - TheRavenousEye

• You should have made a topic, the one that has been implemented is slightly different from the idea presented here.

Daemonkin of Khorne Tactics

Restrictions:

• No models in this detachment may have marks of chaos except the Mark of Khorne, this means you cannot include units like Noise Marines and Thousand Sons in this detachment.
• All models which can take the Mark of Khorne must do so.
• No models with Mastery Level(s) may be taken as a part of this detachment.

Special Rules:

• Daemonkin: Models with this special rule are treated as having the Daemon of Khorne special rule for the purposes of the Blood Tithe table.
• Blood Tithe

Each time a unit with the Daemon of Khorne special rule is destroyed or destroys an enemy unit you gain one Blood Tithe. You may expend Blood Tithes once per turn during your psychic phase on one of the following rewards.

Blood Tithe Cost	Reward
1	Infernal Contempt: All friendly units with the Daemon of Khorne special rule have the Adamantium Will and Stubborn special rules until the start of your next turn. Note that Stubborn Daemon units do not subtract from their leadership when taking instability tests.
2	Insatiable Bloodlust: All friendly units with the Daemon of Khorne special rule have the Crusader and Furious Charge special rules until the start of your next turn.
3	Unstoppable Ferocity: All friendly units with the Daemon of Khorne special rule have the Feel No Pain special rule, but can only use this special rule against ranged attacks.
4	Apocalyptic Fury: All friendly units with the Daemon of Khorne special rule add 1 to their Attacks characteristic until the start of your next turn.
5	Daemontide: A unit consisting of either 7 Bloodletters, with a Blood Fiend, or 5 Flesh Hounds (controlling player’s choice) is summoned (see below) within 12” of any friendly unit with the Daemon of Khorne special rule.
6	Daemontide: A unit consisting of either 8 Bloodletters or 5 Flesh Hounds (controlling player’s choice) is summoned (see below) within 12” of any friendly unit with the Daemon of Khorne special rule.
7	Dark Apotheosis: Choose a friendly Chaos Space Marine character with the Mark of Khorne, the chosen character must take a leadership test, if failed, replace the model with a spawn, if passed, replace the model with a Daemon Prince of Khorne with a 3+ Sv. Either way the model must be placed at least 1" away from enemy models and within 6" of the where the chosen Chaos Space Marine character was standing. The model counts as having been summoned using the Daemonology (Malefic) discipline. The chosen character counts as having been destroyed for all intents and purposes, if an independent character was chosen, you gain 1 Blood Tithe. If the chosen character was your warlord, the Daemon Prince now counts as having been your Warlord all along and has the same warlord trait.
8	Unbound Fury: Choose a single Exalted Herald of Khorne remove the model from play and replace it with a Blood Thirster. The Blood Thirster must be placed anywhere within 6" of the Exalted Herald which is being removed and at least 1" away from enemy models. If the chosen character was your warlord, the Blood Thirster now counts as having been your Warlord all along and has the same warlord trait.

• Note Models are summoned following the rules for the summoning powers in the Daemonology (Malefic) discipline.

Legion Discussions

• Has anyone looked at this since the new traitor legions book? There is (some) genuinely good stuff in there.
• Yes. I agree there is some good stuff, but there are also things which I don't like.

I was inspired by the Thousand Sons and Emperor's Children to make changes in their tactics. I really like many heads of the hydra, but it doesn't really fit into the current tactic I've made, which I like more overall. Many Heads of the Hydra is also problematic because some missions value a single victory point higher than other missions.

On the other hand making every Death Guard model into a Plague Marine and making every World Eater model into a Berzerker is IMO not a good idea, even if you buff the original Plague Marines/Berzerkers. I also don't think turn 1 charges for Infantry units is a good idea or that every legion should have unending numbers of Cultists. Making the siege war, "we don't care about casualties" army into an elite army with copy-pasted rules from a loyalist counterpart, was also a bad idea.

Any specifics you disagree with or want changed? (The artefacts will come BTW, eventually) Angry Pirate (talk) 09:56, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Alpha Legion

• Expert Assassins: All shooting attacks made have the Precision Shot special rule.
• Mutable Tactics: The entire army can choose one of the following rules: Move through Cover, Scout, Tank Hunters, Counter-Attack, Adamantium Will Or outflank. Every unit has this special rule for the rest of the game.
• Hydra Dominatus!: Up to two units of chaos cultists may be upgraded to Alpha Legion operatives 2 points per model. Doing this gives them Frag and Krak grenades, a 5+ armour save, and the Infiltrate and Outflank special rules.
• Poisoned (4+)
• Cultists may take Sniper Rifles

• There isn't room for both Infiltrate and another big special rule like Mutable Tactics. I would also argue that one of these big rules and 2 smaller ones like Precision Shots and Preferred Enemy is too much. IMO that leaves the following options:

Infiltrate + Precision Shots

Infiltrate + Preferred Enemy (Characters)

Mutable Tactics

Poisoned (4+) + Precision Shots

Poisoned (4+) + Preferred Enemy (Characters)

I need some persuasion for poisoned, it doesn't really make sense they all use poison, but I'm fine with any of the others, I like infiltrate the most.

Hydra Dominatus is fine, I think I'll make it into a seperate unit though. The wording may also get changed depending on the core special rules of the Alpha Legion. Angry Pirate (talk) 16:22, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

• Mutuable tactics can include Infiltrate like pre-Heresy

Operatives can be made wannabe-scouts with BS4, scout, infiltrate, default las-/autogun and access to sniper rifle.

• Removed Precision Shots and Preferred Enemy (Characters) from the Mutable Tactics options since I hadn't accounted for the option of taking Infiltrate. Angry Pirate (talk) 16:18, 18 March 2017 (UTC)

Black Legion

• I know we are still a bit on the testing phase with the Chaos Space Marines, and that they are far from complete, but as of now the Black Legion in particular is a little tasteless. For starters I think Preferred Enemy (Armies of the Imperium) is too flavorless to be the only special rule. To me it fails to define the Black Legion completely. The problem is that it is so good against the armies affected that it pushes away the possibility of other special rules being given to them. I know it has been suggested, but I'll second it that the Preferred Enemy special rule be replaced with the following (please do note that this may or may not be overpowered):

• Merciless Fighters: If the number of models with this special rule in a particular close combat is greater than the number of enemy models during Initiative step 1 of the Fight sub phase, then each model with this Special rule that has already fought may make a single additional attack. If any enemy models in the particular combat has the 'Armies of the Imperium faction, models with this special rule count as five models during the fight Sub-phase.
• Note: Models with the Bulky special rule counts as two models for the purposes of this special rule. Models with the Very Bulky special rule count as three.

• Edge of the Spear: Models with this special rule may re-roll reserve rolls of 1.

• Bitter Pride: No model with this special rule may ever be joined by another model without this special rule.

The Merciless fighter rule is horribly worded on my part, but I think the point comes across. Still hates the Imperium, but doesn't suffer an identity crisis when not fighting the Imperium.

Word Bearers

• I've always thought that a good fluffy way to give word bearers some love would be to give them something similiar to loyalist priest's warhymns.

Base the power/chance of sucesfully getting a given Dark Blessing (tm) on the number of models in a unit (bonuses for having a dark apostle, being some special WB unit, having an icon, or multiple of a chaos god's number in models if trying to get a god specific power).

ie: at start of your turn, roll 2d6 + whatever modifiers the unit has as above to try get a specific blessing. Each blessing has a different score you must reach or exceed to successfully use it.

There could be some generic blessings that any unit can get, one for each god (for marked units), and maybe something special for apostles.

God blessing would be pretty straight forward to make fluffy and useful, and the generic/undivided blessings could be things like 'hit nerds harder' 'generic harder to kill buff' 'go fast gadgetlegs' etc that effect the whole unit, or powers that channel specifically in the unit champion/character, but would be CONSIDERABLY stronger. (iron arm lite springs to mind)

Big squads of screaming fanatics getting juiced up by the gods would make sense fluff wise, and I think crunch wise. And hell, the word Bearers are a bunch of crazy super fanatics - if priests and SOB can get their prayers answered, then the WB's should damn well get theirs in spades.

• I'm not sure how your idea differs from mine except:

Units of 6/12 are more likely to get MoS, units of 7/14 are more likely to get MoN, units of 8/16 are more likely to get MoK and units of 9/18 are more likely to get MoZ.

The table is bigger, making it more of a hassle.

Each unit generates a new blessing each turn, making it more of a hassle.

I am not really interested in making it more of a hassle, so you have to give a really good reason for me to go in the opposite direction of the Angry Initiative (that is to simplify and limit randomization and tables).

On the other hand the god numbers is a good idea and could easily be introduced by just saying if your unit numbers 6/12 you get MoS at results 2,3,4,5 if your units numbers 7/14 you get MoN at results 2,3,4,5...

I'm not sure what god blessings are, is there any reason why they cannot be included in the Gifts of Mutation list? Something like Iron Arm can already be done by taking berzerker strength and crystalline body (+1 S and T). Perhabs the costs have to be more granular to make it fair for champions to actually take berzerker strength.

Big squads of screaming fanatics juiced up by the gods is already what the tactic does.

It was playtested like this: Wordbearers CAD: Dark Apostle (Warlord) in 20 Chaos Space Marines with close combat weapons 2 plasma guns. Dark Apostle in 20 CSMs w. CC weapons 2 plasma guns. 20 CSMs w. CC weapons 2 plasma guns. 35 Cultists with 2 flamers. 2 Forgefiends both w. 3 ectoplasm cannons. 1 Maulerfiend.

I would argue that is exactly what you are describing.

• Sorry, I just gave a pretty crappy brief outline to see if you would even look at it, I'll flesh it out a little, and give some reasoning.

With your current setup, when it says all cultists and chaos space marine units, do you mean the literal 'chaos space marines' unit, or any unit of marines (ie: terminators/bike etc)? When I first saw it I assumed just the one unit, but could be utterly wrong.

I also didn't like so much the fact that it randomly assigns a mark. Marks are situationally useful, and also depends on the loadout of the unit, not to mention (if as above it applies to all units of marines, not just the basics), then potentially certain IC's won't be able to join their intended unit, for example.

The main reason I dislike it however, is because it doesn't really ADD anything to word bearers to make them stand out from other legions. Is it a useful special rule? Yes, but in the end it's just a points saving thing, non word bearers can do 100% the same thing except they have to pay for the marks. To top it off, it's an RNG based rule akin to rolling for psychic powers.

With my idea, the only randomness is the d6(s) rolled to try and 'cast' the blessing, and that could simply be removed if desired, I unno. But to expand...

There would be a number of different blessings that any unit can try get, at the start of their turn (and which would last till the start of their next turn unless otherwise stated).

One blessing for each god, which can only be used my appropriately marked units (Blood "noun here" for Khorne that gives melee/charge bonuses for example), plus a few non god specific blessings.

Each blessing would either effect the entire unit, one character in the unit, and if we think of something fancy, maybe a nearby unit or whatever.

To try get a blessing, the unit declares what blessing they're going to roll for, rolls a d6 (or 2, depends on how rng you want it really), then adds any modifiers they have to try reach the score that that specific blessing needs to go off.

Modifiers would include:

- Number of models in unit (more chanting crazies always helps, so for example, 1 extra point for every 5 models, or for god specific blessings, the god's number, or a multiple of that)

- Having an icon

- Having a Dark apostle (could help buff every unit with X inches etc)

Blessings could be anything, I didn't worry about the specifics yet because that would be based on the overall balance, which you would be better placed to judge, but as you mentioned, could quite easily be the gifts of mutation, if you want to cut down on bloat. The same goes for exactly how you activate them - while the modifiers I thought would be quite nice and fluffy (as well as encouraging a setup different from other legions), whether it's a dice roll + modifiers or no dice roll at all, again comes down to balance.

Purely as an example, let's say there is a blessing that gives the whole unit shrouded. This blessing we will say, requires a 8 or higher to activate.

The unit in question is a unit of 10 chosen with an icon. They get a +1 because of the icon, and +2 because they have 10 dudes. This means they would need to roll a 5 or 6 (if going for a 1d6 approach) to get shrouding for a game turn, while if they had taken some losses, and lost their icon, it could be impossible to cast.

Or if we go the non rng approach, the same shroud blessing might require a score of 3. That means a unit would need 15 dudes to use it, or 10 guys with an icon, 5 guys with an icon, 5 guys and an icon + apostle etc, but if they go under that score of 3, they simply can't use it.

• I'll have to write up an introduction for the Talk pages. Everything is on table, as a basic rule I either need to agree with a change, or if you think a change I made is bad then I'll with a few exceptions revert it back to how it is in the official release. Things that I might not want to change are things that go against core tenets of the Angry Initiative, like expanded randomization tables or reducing the pts costs of datasheets which I find to be clearly OP (like Wraith Knights or Gladius Strike Forces). Changing my view of the cost of a unit can either be done by playing a couple of games with a unit or doing some math comparing it to a similar unit. Changing rules can be done by either showing me that the expansion of a rule makes the game so much more fun that it's worth any extra hassle it brings (which is what you'll have to do) or by showing that the current rule can be shrinked without losing signifigant amounts of fun. Finally anything that is vague or badly written you can just change yourself, unless it is an endemic problem (like what does "*All models may take x" mean? Is it the same as any model or is it the same as the entire unit may? Then you should suggest a change in the discussion page so I can work through all the codices when I have time)

I reworded the tactic to be more clear. The intention is for it only to apply to Troops choices (but not Rhinos).

If it weren't random it would be OP as far as I see it. The alternatives would either be a choice, but a much weaker choice or just a weaker standard rule. That being said my view is that CSM is SM, but random, daemonic and evil.

It sounds to me like you want them to have an entire extra phase (or the equivalent of that just to fire off these prayers). Your starting premise is also halved since I removed Priests' prayers. Only Sisters have prayers and that's a set choice for each unit and only once per game.

Your idea isn't horrible, but it's not really inspiring me either. If you wanted to write up the actual rule instead of brainstorming then we could talk more about it. Angry Pirate (talk)

• Ok, thanks for the feedback. I haven't gone through all the work you've done for all the codices, and I'm not in the same country as my collection for that matter. I'm usually not comfortable making fleshed out balance changes when I could potentially be talking out of my ass, which is why I was just focusing on the general mechanic!

I'm more of a fan of faction special rules that gives them an interesting point of difference, where as Glory to the Dark Gods while useful, can be done by non Word Bearers without the RNG at the cost of some extra point.

I'll read through more of your work and get back to you if I can make something mechanically better/clearer - I've just been thinking about this for a while because the poor word bearers have a pretty clear fluff role, but this hasn't translated to the crunch well for a long time.

• I hope I'm not being overly dismissive I just don't fully grasp what mechanic you want to use or which or how many prayers you want. All I've done as far as research for the legions go is read the 30k tactic and units, the 3,5 tactic and the 40k wikia page for each legion. I still haven't gotten around to reading the Horus Heresy.

I suppose another way of them getting their prayers heard would be to allow them to re-roll results on the Eye of the Gods Table. Don't worry too much about balance, it's a complicated issue and powers can always be tuned down. I was just saying that I don't think there is room for anything more powerful than what is currently here, even that might be too powerful. Angry Pirate (talk) 22:26, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

• Is there a reason you decided to go for the rule giving them marks of chaos? I notice it's pretty similar to their 30k rule Dark Channeling which can give them zealot or daemon etc (but that has a 35 points cost per unit you chose to give it to).

Maybe a better comparison of what I was proposing, is the swarmlord's Swarmleader ability. That lets it give a friendly unit within 12" 1 of a choice of special abilities for a turn, at the start of each tyranid turn.

but in this case, instead of giving it to a nearby unit, it's only their own unit (although that could be neat for apostles only?), and there are restrictions on the abilities that can be chosen (having the right mark, or having high enough numbers/icon/etc).

Red Corsairs

• Another one where I feel like the special rules haven't totally gotten the "feel" of the army right. They are hard-hitting and pirates after all. Not really the battlefield strategic geniuses. Also they hail from the Astral Claws, so I thought some Bike related stuff would be more appropriate:

• Scout
• Pirates of the Maelstrom: All Infantry and Jump Infantry models with this special rule gain the Hit and Run special rule and gain an additional Victory point whenever they complete a mission or objective by holding an objective marker outside of their own deployment zone.
• The Hounds of Huron: One unit of Chosen may be given Bikes - 10 pts/model

• I don't see how. Scout already encourages taking bikes and vehicles which can fully make use of Scout. Their standard tactic involves them encircling (which is basically outflanking) their opponents. I also think it makes sense to make their flyers and deep strike units more likely to come in, representing their larger fleet being able to dominate the sky and void allowing for more consistent reinforcements. - Pirate

Legions as Individual Codices

• This was discussed previously, and I feel like I'd like to follow up my argument with some examples of what could be done with the CSM legions. The same can of course be done with the loyalists. - Raven

• I´m fairly sure I made it clear that there would not be an individual codex for each warband and/or each warband with the exception of Grey Knights and Space Wolves. - Pirate

Black Legion Warband

Restrictions:

None.

Special Rules:

• Preferred Enemy (Armies of the Imperium)

Legion Units and Upgrades

• A Chaos Lord may take one of the following upgrades in addition to any other upgrades he may usually take:

-Lord Ravager: A model with this special rule has +1 WS. All friendly Black Legion models within 12" of a model with this upgrade gains the Crusader special rule - 25 pts

-Lord Corruptor: All friendly Black Legion models within 12" of a Lord Corruptor gain the Fear and Fearless special rules - 25 pts

-Lord Purgator: Provided the model with this upgrade is still alive at the start of your Turn 5, you automatically generate the No Prisoners Tactical Objective - 25 pts

• A Chaos Sorceror with Mastery Level 3 may be upgraded to a Lord Deceiver allowing him to generate 2 extra Psychic Powers from the Divination Discipline in addition to

Crimson Slaughter Warband

Restrictions:

You may not include special characters in a Crimson Slaughter army.

Special Rules:

• Do You Hear the Voices Too?: Possessed are Troops instead of Elites. Chosen, Chaos Terminators and HQs can choose to roll on the Vessels of Chaos table, and Possessed may re-roll any roll on the Vessels of Chaos table.

• Twisting Presence: Fear, when assaulted by non-Fearless units models with this special rule counts as being armed with defensive grenades.

• Relics of the Crimson Slaughter: You gain access to the following options and add the following to the Chaos Artefacts list:

- Blade of the Relentless - 30 pts

Chaos Lord or Chaos Warmonger only.

- Crozius of the Dark Covenant - 30 pts

Warp-medium: All models in the wearers unit may re-roll any failed invulnerable saving throws of 2,3,4 and 5.

- The Slaughterer´s Horns - 30 pts

The bearer has the Rampage special rule.

- The Balestar of Mannon - 35 pts 
- Prophet of the Voices - 40 pts

The bearer has the Daemon and Fearless special rules. Etc. Etc.

- Daemonheart - 50 pts

Red Corsairs Warband

Restrictions:

None.

Special Rules:

• Outflank
• Scout
• Pirate Fleet of the Maelstrom: Units composed entirely of models with this special rule may re-roll failed reserve rolls.

Night Lords Warband

Restrictions:

None.

Special Rules:

• Fear
• Terror: Enemy units in close combat with a unit from this formation must re-roll succesful morale and fear tests.
• Nightbombs: Any game featuring at least one of these formations use the night fighting rules the entire game, even if all members of this detachment are destroyed.
• Light and Fast: You may take one additional Fast Attack choice than is normally allowed. You may take one less additional Heavy Support choice than is normally allowed, in formations which allow for non-specific Fast Attack/Heavy Support choices.

Alpha Legion Warband

Restrictions:

• No models in this detachment may have marks of chaos, this means you cannot include units like Khorne Berzerkers and Thousand Sons in this detachment.
• No models in this detachment may have the Daemon special rule.
• No vehicles may take the Daemonic Possession upgrade.

Special Rules:

• Infiltrate and Preferred Enemy (Characters)

Thousand Sons Warbands

Restrictions:

• No models in this detachment may have the Daemon special rule.
• No models in this detachment may have marks of chaos except the Mark of Tzeentch, this means you cannot include units like Noise Marines and Khorne Berzerkers in this detachment.

Special Rules:

• Pushing the Limit: When manifesting a psychic power you may overcharge it, you manifest warp charges on 3+ but any roll of a double causes a Perils of the Warp.
• Dustnoughts: May take Helbrutes, however they lose the Crazed, Daemon and Daemonforge special rules, instead it gains a 4+ Invulnerable save.
• Spire Guard: Any unit of Chosen or Terminators may be upgraded to be Brotherhood of Psykers (Mastery Level x) - 20 pts/model. The units Mastery level is equal to the number of remaining models. They know all powers from the Change Discipline. In addition all their melee weapons gain the Force type.
• Mark of the Rubric: All models, armed with power armour, terminator armour or fleshmetal with the Mark of Tzeentch in this detachment gain a 5+ Invulnerable save, increased to a 4+ by the Mark of Tzeentch.
• Shitty Smiths: Chaos Rhinos, included in this formation/detachment, lose the Repair special rule.
• Eternal Hatred: Space Wolves have Hatred (Thousand Sons), who likewise have Hatred (Space Wolves).

Death Guard Warband

Restrictions:

• No models in this detachment may have marks of chaos except the Mark of Nurgle, this means you cannot include units like Noise Marines and Khorne Berzerkers in this detachment.

Special Rules:

• Feel No Pain (6+) or if a model already has Feel No Pain: Feel No Pain (4+)
• Rot Hosts: Whenever a character with the Mark of Nurgle would be removed as a casualty, before removing him, place the Large Blast marker centrally over him. Resolve it like a shooting attack with Strength 5 AP 4, this has no effect on models with the Mark of Nurgle and models with the Daemon of Nurgle special rule.
• Toxic Ammunition: All weapons with bolt in their name have the Poisoned (5+) type.
• Exercise is Good for You: Rhinos may not be taken as dedicated transports by Troops choices in a Death Guard Warband detachment or formation.

Death Guard Special Units

Deathshroud Terminators

		WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv	Unit Type	Composition
Deathshroud Terminator	165 pts	5	5	4	6	1	4	2	10	2+	Infantry	2 Deathshroud Terminators, 1 Deathshroud Champion
Deathshroud Champion		5	5	4	6	1	4	3	10	2+	Infantry

Wargear:

• Cataphractii Terminator armour
• Mark of Nurgle (Already included in the profile above)
• Death Guard Hand Flamer

	R	S	AP	Type
Death Guard Hand Flamer	Template	3	5	Assault 1, Shred

• Deathshroud Power Scythe

	S	AP	Type
Deathshroud Power Scythe	+1	3	Melee, Two-Handed, Sweeping Attack, Shred

Sweeping Attack: A model using a weapon with this special rule may opt to exchange its attack value with the number of enemy models in base contact with it. Models in a challenge may never use this special rule.

Special Rules:

• Eternal Crusade
• Fearless
• Feel No Pain
• Harbingers of Disease: A model with this special rule is affected by the Rot Hosts special rule despite not being a character. However only a small blast is placed over the model once it dies.
• Relics of An Age Past: A Death Guard Army may only ever include one unit of Deathshroud Terminators.

Options

• May add up to seven additional Deathshroud Terminators - 58pts/model

Plague Zombies

		WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv	Unit Type	Composition
Plague Zombie	60 pts	2	0	2	3	1	1	1	5	-	Infantry	20 Plague Zombies

Wargear:

• None

Special Rules:

• Fearless
• Feel No Pain (6+)
• Poison Attacks (6+)
• The Plague Spreads: Whenever a model dies from a Plague Zombie's close combat attacks, roll a D6. On a 4 or more add a single Plague Zombie to the Plague Zombie's unit.

Plague Ogryns

		WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv	Unit Type	Composition
Plague Ogryn	75 pts	4	2	6	5	3	3	D6	8	-	Infantry	3 Plague Ogryns

Special Rules:

• Feel No Pain
• Fearless
• Very Bulky
• Poison (2+)
• Random Attacks: At the beginning of each Fight sub-phase, roll a D6 to determine how many attacks each Plague Ogryn makes.

Iron Warriors Warband

Restrictions:

• No models in this detachment may have marks of chaos, this means you cannot include units like Khorne Berzerkers and Thousand Sons in this detachment.

Special Rules:

• Armsmasters: Havocs count as troops choices.
• Meatgrinder: Each time a unit of Troops, including Havocs, is destroyed roll a D6, on a 5+ they are immediately restored to full strength and put into reserves. Cultists are restored on a 2+.
• Armoured Assault: Units of Chaos Space Marines in this detachment may take Rhinoes as dedicated transports for 35 points less than normal.
• Heavy and Slow: You may include 1 more Heavy Support choice than normal, and 1 less Fast Attack choice than normal, in formations which allow for non-specific Heavy Support/Fast Attack choice.

World Eaters Warband

Restrictions:

• No models in this detachment may have marks of chaos except the Mark of Khorne, this means you cannot include units like Noise Marines and Thousand Sons in this detachment.
• No models with Mastery Level(s) may be taken as a part of this detachment.

Special Rules:

• Fleet, Crusader and Hammer of Wrath special rules.
• Khorne´s Fury Knows No Bounds: All Infantry models with this special rule have the Move Through Cover special rule.
• Uncontrollable Rage: When a unit from this formation is able to assault one or more units in the assault phase, it must take a leadership test, if the test is passed nothing happens, otherwise the unit is forced to assault one of the eligible units.

Emperor´s Children Warband

Restrictions:

• No models in this detachment may have marks of chaos except the Mark of Slaanesh, this means you cannot include units like Plague Marines and Thousand Sons in this detachment.

Special Rules:

• Sonic Weaponry: Any model may exchange a

- Mutli-Melta/Hades Autocannon/Lascannon for Blastmaster - 0 pts 
- Autocannon/Twin-linked Heavy Bolter for a Blastmaster - 5 pts
- Havoc Launcher for a Blastmaster - 8 pts

• Night Vision, Outflank, and Acute Senses
• Dark Temptation: Enemy models within 12" of a model from this detachment must take a Leadership check at the start of each of their movement phases, if failed they must move their allowed movement distance (6" for Infantry 12" for Bikes…) directly towards the closest non flyer/flying monstrous creature from this detachment.

Emperor's Children Special Units and Upgrades

Phoenix Guards

		WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv	Unit Type	Composition
Phoenix Guard	250 pts	6	5	4	5	1	5	3	10	2+	Infantry	4 Phoenix Guard, 1 Phoenix Champion
Phoenix Champion		7	5	4	5	1	5	4	10	2+	Infantry

Wargear:

• Mark of Slaanesh
• Tartaros Terminator armour
• Phoenix Power Spear

S	AP	Type
+1/User	2/3	Melee, Two-handed

• Note that the Phoenix Power Spear has two profiles. The first one is only used during the turn when the Phoenix Terminator charges.
• Sonic Shriekers: All models within 8" of a model equipped with a Sonic Shrieker must take a Pinning test at the start of its turn.

Special Rules:

• Eternal Crusade
• Fearless
• Sudden Attack: During any turn in which a model with this special rule charges into close combat it gains +1 Initiative.
• Relics of An Age Past: An army may only include up to one unit of Phoenix Guards.

Options

• May include up to 5 additional Phoenix Guards - 48pts

Palatine Prefector

	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv	Unit Type	Composition
Palatine Blade	7	4	4	4	2	6	2	9	2+	Infantry (Character)	1 Palatine Prefector

Wargear:

• Bolt pistol
• Essence Saber

S	AP	Type
User	6	Melee, Rending, Ever-Thirsting, Duellist's Edge

Ever-Thirsting: A weapon with this special rule grants its wielder +D6 attacks as well as the Smash special rule during challenges.

• Frag grenade
• Krak grenade
• Artificier Armour
• Aura of Dark Glory

Special Rules:

• Eternal Crusade
• Independent Character
• Fearless

Word Bearers Warband

Restrictions: All units with the option to take a chaos icon, must do so.

Special Rules:

• Bringer of the Word: Dark Apostles in this detachment are Fearless.
• Glory to the Dark Gods: During deployment roll a D6 for each unit of Chaos Cultists and each Chaos Space Marine unit without a mark. On the roll of 1 nothing happens. On a roll of 2 the unit gains the mark of Khorne. On a roll of 3 the unit gains the mark of Tzeentch. On a roll of 4 the unit gains the mark of Nurgle. On a roll of 5 the unit gains the mark of Slaanesh. On a roll of 6 the character in the unit may roll once on the Chaos Mutation Table, re-rolling results of 2, 7 and 12.

Mhara Gal Tainted Dreadnought

		WS	BS	S	FA	SA	RA	I	A	HP	Unit Type	Composition
Mhara Gal Tainted Dreadnought	250 pts	6	3	7	13	12	11	5	5	4	Vehicle (Walker)	1 Mhara Gal Tainted Dreadnought

Wargear:

• Tainted Power Claw with an Inbuilt Cursed-Bolter

	Range	S	AP	Type
Tainted Power Claw	-	10	2	Melee, Ghost Razor
Cursed-Bolter	24"	4	5	Rapid Fire, Blind

Ghost Razor: Successful invulnerable saves made against wounds caused by this weapon must be re-rolled.

Special Rules:

• Fleet
• Daemon
• Daemonforge
• It Will Not Die
• Move Through Cover
• Accursed: A model with this special rule gains the following effects:

-Fear tests against the Mhara Gal are taken at a -2 Leadership Penalty
-All models with the Daemon and/or Psyker special rule and members of units which are suubject to a Blessing-type psychic power who are within 6" of the Mhara Gal at the end of the Mhara Gal's controlling player's turn each suffer an automatic Strength 5 AP 2 hit with the Ignores Cover special rule. 

• Shroud of Dark Fire: A model with this special rule gains the following effects:

-Any heat- fire- or plasma-based weapons (mostly these will be identified by fire, fusion, flamer, plasma or melta in their name or description) has its Strength reduced by 1 when targeting the Mhara Gal.
-Any model assaulting the Mhara Gal with a Toughness value less than 7 or a facing Armour value less than 13 suffer -1 to hit modifier in close combat. 
-If the Mhara Gal suffers an Explodes! result, instead of following the usual procedure, replace the model with the Massive Blast (7"). All models touched by the template suffer a Str 6 AP 5 hit

with the Soul Blaze special rule, whose effects are determined as per a Barrage attack.

• Howling Death: Any unit suffering at least one casualty from the Mhara Gal must take a Morale check just as if they had lost 25% of their

number, at -1 Leadership.

Options

• A Mhara Gal Dreadnought may exchange its tainted power claw and in built Cursed Bolter for one of the following upgrades:

- Multi-melta - Free
- Twin-linked Autocannon - Free
- Twin-linked Lascannon - 10pts
- Warp fire plasma cannon - 15pts

• A Mhara Gal Dreadnought may exchange its Warpfire Plasma

Cannon for a:

- Second tainted powerclaw with an in built Cursed Bolter - Free

Dark Brethren

		WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv	Unit Type	Composition
Dark Brethren	130 pts	5	4	5	5	2	5	2	8	3+	Infantry	4 Dark Brethren, 1 Dark Martyr
Dark Martyr		5	4	5	5	3	5	3	9	3+	Infantry (Character)

Wargear

• Bolt Pistol
• Boltgun
• Close Combat Weapon
• Frag Grenades
• Krak Grenades
• Power Armour

Special Rules

• Eternal Crusade
• Daemon
• Rending
• Bulky
• Stubborn
• Rage
• Deep Strike
• Damned: A unit with this special rule may never be joined by Independent Characters, and cannot capture objectives.

Options The Gal Vorbak Dark Brethren Squad may include: - Up to five additional Dark Brethren - 30pts/model For every five models in the squad, one Dark Brethren may exchange their boltgun for one of the following options:

- Flamer - 5pts
- Plasma gun - 10pts
- Meltagun - 15pts
- Power weapon - 10pts

The Dark Martyr may exchange their chainsword or combat blade for a:

- Power weapon - 10pts
- Power fist - 15pts
- Single lightning claw - 15pts

• Alternatively, the Dark Martyr may exchange their Close Combat Weapon, bolt pistol and boltgun for a: - Pair of lightning claws - 20pts • The Dark Martyr may also take any of the following options:

- Melta Bombs - 5pts
- Artificier Armour - 20pts

The Ashen Circle

		WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv	Unit Type	Composition
Incendiary	100 pts	5	4	4	4	1	4	1	8	3+	Jump Infantry	4 Incendiaries, 1 Iconoclast
Iconoclast	5	4	4	4	4	1	4	2	9	3+	Jump Infantry (Character)

Wargear:

• Axe-Rake

Range	S	AP	Type
-	+1	6	Melee, Grapple

Grapple: Units with a Grapple Hook receives +1 Initiative when rolling for Sweeping Advances.

• Hand Flamer
• Krak grenades
• Frag Grenades
• Power Armour

Special Rules:

• Eternal Crusade
• Stubborn
• Burning Descent: If the unit enters play via Deep Strike, then as soon as it has been placed on the table, all models that are within D6" suffer an immediate Str 3 AP 5 hit.
• Scorched Earth: This unit may always use its Hammer of Wrath attack, regardless of whether or not it has used its jump packs in the Movement phase, and these attacks are carried out at Str 5. The Hammer of Wrath attacks made by this unit are classed as Flamer type attacks.
• Bitter Duty: The unit may not be joined by friendly independent characters.

Options

• An Ashen Ciicle squad may include:

- Up to five additional Incendiaries - 20pts/model

• Any model in the squad may exchange their axe-rake for a:

- Power axe - 5pts/model

• The Iconoclast may also exchange their hand flamer for one of the

following weapons:

- Inferno pistol - 10pts
- Plasma pistol - 10pts

• The Iconoclast may also take any of the following options:

- Melta bombs - 5pts
- Up to three phosphex bombs - 10pts
- Artificer armour - 15pts

Icons of Chaos

• What can be done about icons? The icon of wrath needs an upgrade now that mok gives furious charge, making the iow redundant or expensive for just the reroll. Also icons of despair and icon of flame really need some fixing, they are bloody useless! Thanks for the hard work guys, keep it up!

• I never really paid attention to the Icons, I in fact had yet to realise they no longer work as locator beacons, which I prefer to the new Fantasy style + 1 combat resolution. This makes them a fair bit more of a niche pick, but I think that´s fine. If you think the costs changed please say so. - Angry Pirate (talk)

Daemon Weapons

• I was thinking, are we doing something interesting about Daemon Weapons or Armor? I personally think it's a shame to let Daemon Weapons be simple Rampage +1 weapons, and would like some sort of way to either build them, or add the Daemon Weapon effect to gear like Mastercrafted gear. - Dane.

• That sounds awesome, I´m 85% done with SM, I´ll probably develop a lot of stuff for CSM from the 19th - 29th of March. I think daemonic stuff is a big part of what should set CSM apart from SM so help with brainstorming would be a great help. Angry Pirate (talk) 17:35, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Uuuuh-hu-hu-hu, this is a REAL challenge! I think I need help on this one, and I'd love it if you guys give out ideas too.

My general idea is to make a real fukken meaty list, where you can basically create your own weapon by adding effects on the weapon by using more points. This also means that the weapon becomes more powerful, and as such, is more likely to try and fuck up its master. Likewise with Daemonic Armor.

• Daemon Weapon.

Cost: 10 pt.

Affected weapon gets the Fleshbane and Daemonic USR.

Where the Daemonic rule is kind of like Gets Hot, but gets worse as extra effects on it. - Dane.

• So I am going to just throw out some ideas here. Pretty basic stuff, but hey. I was thinking a Daemon Weapon should be made up of 1 primary attribute which is based on the character's mark and then as many minor attributes as the player wishes. The basic daemon weapon is really just a close combat weapon for 0 points. The daemon aspect is supposed to tag along via the powers.

Undivided Attributes

• Soul Eater: Whenever this weapon inflicts an unsaved wound roll a D6. If the result is 5 or higher, roll another D6 and consult the following table:

D6	Bonus
1	Berzerker's Rage: The model is granted +1 Attack for the rest of the game.
2	Brute Strength: The model is granted +1 Strength for the rest of the game.
3	Grace of the Gods: The model is granted +1 Initative for the rest of the game.
4	Impenetrable Skin: The model is granted +1 Toughness for the rest of the game.
5	Unnatural Aura: The model gains the Fear special rule until the end of the game. If the model already had the Fear special rule, enemy models must now roll 3D6 and discard the lowest roll when taking fear tests caused by this model.
6+	Precious Protection The model gains a 5+ Invulnerable save. If the model already had an invulnerable save it gains +1 to its invulnerable save.

• Empyrean Conduit: The weapon transforms into a ranged weapon with the following profile:

Range	S	AP	Type
18"	6	4	Assault XD6, The Souls of the Damned
Template	X	-	Assault 1, Into the Machine

Into the Machine: Any non-vehicle model hit by a weapon with this special rule must pass an Initiative test or be removed as a casualty. 'Look Out Sir' rolls may be performed against an attack with this special rule. For each model removed the bearer gains a single Empyrean Token.

The Souls of the Damned: A weapon with this special rule must expend from 1 to 4 Empyrean Tokens each time it fires. X then becomes equal to the amount of Empyrean tokens used for the shot.

• Hate Channeler: The weapon gains the following profile if it is a ranged weapon:

Range	S	AP	Type
30"	4	5	Assault 1D6, Fueled by Malice

Fueled by Malice: For each of the following special rules the model has, the Daemon Weapon gains +1 Strength, -1 AP and fires an extra D6 worth of shots:

- Hatred (Target)
- Preferred Enemy (Target)
- Rage
- Crusader
- Furious Charge

If the Daemon Weapon has the Melee type it instead gains the following profile:

Range	S	AP	Type
-	User	3	Melee, Hatred Eternal

Hatred Eternal: For each of the following special rules the model has, the Daemon Weapon gains +1 Strength, -1 AP and the model wielding it automatically performs D6 extra attacks during the Sub-fight phase:

- Hatred
- Preferred Enemy
- Rage
- Crusader
- Furious Charge

---

• I have a slightly different idea, basically any model which can have a Daemon weapon gain the following two options:
• May upgrade any power weapon to a daemon weapon - 30 pts

A daemon weapon retains its original profile but gains the Daemon Weapon special rule

Daemon Weapon: Before rolling To-Hit with a weapon with this special rule roll a D6. On a 2+ the bearer gains a number of additional attacks or shots equal to the roll, on a roll of 1 the bearer´s WS and BS characteristics are changed to 0 until the start of the following Shooting Phase.

• A Chaos Lord armed with a weapon with the Daemon Weapon special rule may take items from the Daemonic Forge list.
• In addition to this each warband tactic offers a unique option:

- World Eaters

• One World Eaters model armed with a daemon weapon may exchange it for The Bloodthirsty Axe - 20 pts

Range	S	AP	Type
-	+1	4	Melee, Daemon Weapon, Blood Soaked Fury

Blood Soaked Fury: Each time a model inflicts a wound with this weapon the model may immediately make an additional attack, these attacks do not generate additional attacks.

- Iron Warriors

• One Iron Warriors model armed with a daemon weapon may exchange it for the Daemonic Hand Cannon - 30 pts

Range	S	AP	Type
18"	D	2	Salvo 1/1, Blast, Get´s Hot, Daemonic Essence

Daemonic Essence: Get´s Hot results inflicted by this weapon have the Instant Death special rule.

• I´ll just dump my notes for the rest.
• Crimson Slaughter

- Talking weapon?

Might want this as a generic option, Crimson Slaughter is young so they might not have anything other than generic daemon weapons.

• Night Lords

- Bat´s Talon

• Alpha Legion

- Twin swords

Two different profiles, may use the other one when you roll a 1? (Backup Primarch)

• Thousand Sons

- Arcane Staff

Ranged profile+melee profile

• Black Legion

-  Power fist?

• Red Corsairs

- Doomfire Revolver

S 2D6 pistol (S 11/12=S D)

• Emperor´s Children

- Quicksilver Rapier 

Increased initiative

• Death Guard

- Life Reaper

Enemies slain join the killers unit as zombies?

• Word Bearers

- Whispering Dagger

Morale debuff (both to enemies and friendly units?)

• Khorne Daemonkin

- Skullcrushing Mace

Instant death in challenges. Or the old choose a target, while fighting that target the weapon gets stronger.

• Daemonic Weapon Forge

A model may take up to three different upgrades to his weapon with the Daemon Weapon special rule. The second price is if the upgrade is the second upgrade taken and the third is if the upgrade is the third taken. Note that you may take any upgrade as the first, second or third, meaning you should always take the cheapest route to get your weapon.

- Wrathful 

All the model´s weapon profiles with the Daemon Weapon special rule gain the Soul Blaze special rule.

- Slouthful 

Every turn the model stands still the model gains It Will Not Die

- Lustful 

May re-roll any result on the number of attacks that is not a 1. (Re-rolls still cannot be re-rolled)

- Poisonous 

Poisoned (4+)

- Greedy

Roll additional dice to get additional attacks. (Chance of becoming WS 0)

- Envious 

Switch (S and T) stats with enemies in a challenge

- Sentient 

Master-crafted

- Deadly

Instant D on 6s

- Proud

Grants the wielder mutations when the character kills an enemy character

- Gluttonous

Roll D6 on some table every turn the model kills one or more models.

- Devouring  

Anti-psyker

WARGEAR

DAEMONIC FORGE

DAEMON FIST

• A power fist is far more powerful than a power weapon, especially when the model carrying it has 7-9 attacks on average on the charge.

QUICKSILVER RAPIER

• It is flat out better than a daemonic power sword, therefore it should be more expensive.

SKULLCRUSHING MACE

• Again, flat out better, so it should cost more.

Units

HQ

DAEMON PRINCE

• I'm fairly sure there is fluff saying that the gods of chaos stopped making undivided princes after belakor because he was too powerful. Given that I've removed the Chaos discipline he also has only one discipline to draw from.

CHAOS SORCERER

• Why should Chaos Sorcs get more wounds and attacks than SM Librarians and the official Chaos Sorcs?

WARPSMITH

• Why the bonus attack and wound?

Tzeentch Psychic Dreadnought

• 250 pts.
• Mark of Tzeentch, Mastery level 2 psycher, must generate all powers from Tzeentch, chain fist with inbuilt heavy flamer, and a butcher cannon.

• Here is the Librarian Dreadnought of the BA:

Librarian Dreadnought

		WS	BS	S	FA	SA	RA	I	A	HP	Unit Type	Composition
Librarian Dreadnought	150 pts	5	5	6	13	12	10	4	4	3	Vehicle (Walker, Character)	1 Librarian Dreadnought

Wargear:

• Furioso force halberd

Range	S	AP	Type
-	x2	2	Melee, Force

• Storm bolter
• Psychic hood
• Searchlight
• Smoke launchers

Special Rules:

• Librarian: Models with this special rule always count their name as being "Librarian" in addition to their true name.
• Psychic Pilot (Mastery Level 1)
• Chapter Tactics (Blood Angels)
• Move Through Cover

Psyker: Librarian Dreadnoughts generate their powers from the Biomancy, Daemonology, Divination and Pyromancy disciplines.

Options:

• May be upgraded to Psychic Pilot (Master Level 2) - 25 pts
• May replace storm bolter with one of the following:

- Heavy flamer - 10 pts
- Meltagun - 10 pts

• May select a Drop Pod or a Dreadnought Drop Pod as a Dedicated Transport.

I can´t use a couple of lines for anything, an AV 12/12/10 vehicle is also never going to be worth more than 200 pts.

I´m left with questions like:

Does it have an invul save?

Does it have the daemon engine rule?

WTH is a butcher cannon?

Please try a little harder, I´ll just flat delete your shit if you don´t even want to talk about it or flesh out your ideas. Angry Pirate (talk) 11:14, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Elites

Possessed

• Proposed changes:

WS/BS 3, W 2, Ld 7. Champion has WS 5, Ld 8, A 3.

Base Cost: 120 pt.

Base Unit size: Four Possessed and one Possessed Champion.

28 pt per Possessed, up to 20 models.

Remove the Vessel of Chaos table entirely, and replace it with the Stubborn, Concussive and Rending USRs.

• Why give them concussive?

LD 7 Stubborn is kind of ridiculous, as soon as someone kills their leader in a challenge they are extremely likely to run away. I think they should keep Fearless.

I´m not entirely sure if removing the Vessels of Chaos table, I´m aware you prefer a more reliable unit, but that isn´t really what I think Possessed should be. If Chaos isn´t random then what makes them stand out from SM, the Wulfen are far more random than this with their random AOE buffs. - Angry Pirate

• Well, the Wulfen are also pants-on-head-retarded and can barely be called decent design if you ask me, so there's that.

I chose Concussive to give them a different role than the Spawns, and to make them more of an Anvil unit than a super-killy one, which CSM already has in the Chosen, Termies, Bezerkers and others. It represents constriction and other weird stuff the Possessed can do with their arms and appendages. I think that would make them unique in comparison to other, more speed-based units. You could also pick Strikedown or something like that.

Fearless and stuff is something I can take and leave. I just thought it'd be cool to have a unit that is a bit more sporadic. It would give an incentive to put some IC in it to control them; but if that's no go, I won't wail.

On the Vessel... I dunno. I don't like random, but if it's something you can actually build around, instead of near-crucial rolls where only random rolls will decide how effective it is, I don't like it very much.

What about a table that decides on a stat (WS, S, T, A, I and Sv+), which you roll for every Movement Phase, which boosts the corresponding stat by one? And if you win a combat, you get to keep the current stat boost, while being able to keep rolling on the table? TheWiseDane (talk) 16:17, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

• I´m not saying that the Wulfen have been well designed, but the SM equivalent of Possessed should not be far more random than Possessed. Random is a thing of chaos, SM should be reliable and predictable, chaos should be unreliable and unpredictable.

They don´t have tentacles though, they have crab claws, big hands with sharp fingernails and swordhands. Besides concussive rarely has any impact, the only time it matters is against I 4+ MCs.

I don´t think ICs belong in Possessed in the first place.

I think Posssessed should be remarkably more random than the other two, which IMO should be what sets them apart. Perhabs if their bonus was rolled once only at the start of the game you could play around it somewhat more. think the random bonus should have an actual impact, something which +1 WS or +1 S wouldn´t have a lot of. I know that you don´t like RNG, but ultimately that´s what I think should describe Chaos. The only reason why I didn´t like all the random tables the offical daemon dex has is it takes too long. How do you think chaos should stand out from it´s competitors if not by being more random? - Angry Pirate

• I kind of disagree, but then again, I'm not to say; random it is :D

I think I like getting a roll in the start of the game; it makes you able to work with your random roll, rather than just wait for them to happen. What if you got another roll if you win a combat? So the Possessed get really, really mean when you keep killing stuff? TheWiseDane (talk) 12:28, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

• Ok here goes:

Possessed

		WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv	Unit Type	Composition
Possessed	150 pts	4	4	4	4	2	4	2	10	3+	Beast	4 Possessed, 1 Possessed Champion
Possessed Champion		4	4	4	4	2	4	2	10	3+	Beast (Character)

Special Rules

• Daemon
• Fearless
• Rending
• Vessels of Chaos: Roll a D6 for each unit with this special rule at the start of the game. On a roll of a 1 or 2 all models in the unit adds two to its Strength characteristic. On a roll of 3 or 4 the unit gains the Rampage special rule. On a roll of 5 or 6 the unit is armed with a power swords.

Options

• May add up to fifteen Possessed - 30 pts/model
• The Possessed Champion may take favour the gods - 20 pts

A unit that includes a model with favour of the gods may re-roll its result on the Vessels of Chaos table.

• The unit may take one of the following:

- Mark of Khorne - 6 pts/model 
- Mark of Tzeentch - 5 pts/model 
- Mark of Nurgle - 6 pts/model 
- Mark of Slaanesh - 5 pts/model 

• One model may take one of the following Chaos Icons:

- Icon of wrath - 15 pts
- Icon of Flame - 5 pts
- Icon of Despair - 5 pts 
- Icon of Excess - 40 pts
- Icon of Vengeance - 25 pts 

• May take a Chaos Rhino as a Dedicated Transport.

Pts are all +- 50%. I want to mainly focus on the rules.

Also remember they get Preferred Enemy (Armies of the Imperium) or another legion tactic of your choosing.

I wasn´t sure if they should be Beasts or have a bonus to charge and run distances, but I don´t mind pushing Possessed in a foot slogging direction, putting them in a transport is kind of weird and the only assault vehicle CSM has is the Raider and putting them in a Raider just seems very strange to me.

I want to wait with changing the main page until March, so you don´t have to check every time you play a game to see if something has changed. - Angry Pirate

• You beat me to the punch. Here's a different take on Vessel of Chaos::

1: Nothing. Nice try.

2: Animalistic Form: Becomes Beast and Hammer of Wrath.

3: Supernatural Carapace: Gains FNP (6+) and increases their Invul. Save by 1.

4: Chaotic Fury: Gains 1+ I and A.

5: Mutated Appendages: Gains Concussive and Shred.

6: Psychic Rabble: Gains Brotherhood of Psykers (Lvl. 1), and must roll a Psychic Power up from either Biomancy, Pyromancy, Telepathy, Divination, Corrumancy, or the Dicipline associated with the Mark the unit has. If rolled again later in the game, increase the Lvl. by one and roll up another Power on any available Dicipline. If a Possessed unit Marked by Khorne roll Psychic Rabble, re-roll the roll.

Fast Attack

RAPTORS

• Why should they have more attacks than their SM equivalents?

Heavy Support

Siegefiend

• Basically a Forgefiend mixed with a Maulerfiend.

3 Ectoplasma cannons that can act as power fists in close combat, a pair magma cutters.

Uses WS of 7 and BS of 6 (with demonic possession).

350 pts of Brutal.

• I´m going to give you the benefit of the doubt, although I´m assuming it´s a joke, why should there be rules for this abomination? Have you made or model or do you have a model you wish for these rules to represent? Angry Pirate (talk) 14:20, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Land Raider

• Is still really weak and too big an investment. It needs to go down to at least 210 points. I would even say 200. That is a 35 point upgrade from a Predator Annihilator which gives you 1 additional non-TL lascannon 8 points less armour value. It sounds sick, but I honestly think it is necessary to make Land Raiders good.
• Should I list the thing you haven´t included in your comparison? Like:

- Transport capacity
- Being the only non-open-topped tank which is also an assault vehicle I can think of. 
- Being fast, meaning you can drive 12" and fire the sponsons at full power.
- Move through cover
- Ramming at strength 10 while still firing lascannons.

• The higher the power of a unit the more "overcosted" it has to be. Knights for example will lose a ton of matchups in the angry codices, because if they don´t then they´ll rampage freely. The same can be said to a degree of the Land Raider, what happens when you bring 4 Land Raiders and your opponent doesn´t have answers? Who actually has answers for 6 Land Raiders? Only a tailored list, but that tailored list should be able to tear those Land Raiders apart. Just like 3 Knights will win you the game if your opponent doesn´t have answers, but if he does you´ll lose spectacularly.

Another thing to keep in mind is that in the angry codices anti-land raider has been nerfed. Lascannons are not nearly as powerful against LRs or as all purpose as the old meltagun was, Necron Warriors aren´t nearly as potent against LRs as before, while blast weapons (note the small b) are more powerful against LRs the nerf to the amount of power of DEldar lances is huuuge, Eldar knights have been nerfed so you´ll be seeing less D from them.

How many games have you seen them in? Have you at all used them in a game? I´ve seen one in a single game where it got buttered by S D because it was deployed badly, hardly what I would call justification for reducing its cost by 35 pts.

Lords of War

Chaos Warmonger

• Why should it's profile be this insane? It is meant to be an anagolous to a Space Marine chapter master, not a demi-primarch.

Basic characters should not have a 2+ Sv, you can buy flesh metal if you want a 2+ Sv.

Unmarked Chaos Dicipline?

• I recently wrote some for-fun-rules for a dicipline exclusive for Chaos Space Marines, since it'd seem weird for legions like Iron Warriors to use Sorcerers with Marked Diciplines, since they use the power of Chaos as a tool, rather than a religion like the others. I think it would be fluffy to add a support dicipline made for Sorcerers and such to put in a large unit of Marines or Cultists. I can add the rules I wrote, should you want to. TheWiseDane (talk) 12:05, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

• I wouldn´t mind, my thinking was they´d just use the basic disciplines in the core rulebook. "such to put in a large unit of Marines or Cultists." Do you mean that the discipline should be able to summon Marines or Cultists? I´m kind of sceptical if that´s the case. I would prefer if you could post it here in the discussion page first. - Angry Pirate

• • I'll keep it here, before it's accepted, of course ;) No, it's an almost pure support based dicipline that has a little bit Malefic, a bit Divination and something that's just warpy in general, but no summoning. I'll post it now:

Warp Surge - Primaris.
- The Sorcerer releases baleful energies from his palms, which seek out the injured and weak in his unit. If the ravaging energies doesn't burn out their feeble minds and bodies in an instant, the victim staves off the madness and is empowered to further fight for the dark gods.
- Warp Charges: 1
- Blessing.
- Target: Psyker Unit.
- The unit may take a Ld-test: For each point the test is succesful by, you may regenerate one wound to the unit. These models may only be model lost from the unit previously in the game.

Weapons of Corruption - 1.
- Weapons twist and pulsate, growing fangs and maws, sprouting inhuman eyes and slithering tentacles, as the Warp itself reinforce the units' tools of war.
- Warp Charges: 1-3
- Blessing.
- Target: Psyker Unit and Psyker.
- Choose a weapon type in the unit (ranged, melee). If succesful, the unit gets the following effects until the end of your next turn.
- 1 Charge: The unit may re-roll 1's To Hit with the weapon.
- 2 Charge: The unit may re-roll 1's To Hit and To Wound with the weapon.
- 3 Charge: The unit may re-roll 1's To Hit and To Wound with the weapon. Additionally, each weapon may shoot one additional shot/do one additional attack.

Cursed Land - 2
- The Sorcerer twist and corrupts the landscape before him, turning the battlefield itself to his side.
- Warp Charges: 1-2
- Malediction.
- Target: None.
- Place a Large Blast (7 inches Blast if two Charges) within 12 of the Psyker. All enemy models moving through the blast marker must take a Difficult and Dangerous Test, even if the model could originally ignore Terrain. Friendly models in the blast gain a 4+ Cover save, and models Deep Striking entirely within the Blast marker does not Scatter. The Blast stays until the end of your next turn.

Wake the Warp - 3
- In every living being with even the slightest hint of a soul, Chaos lurks, ever trying to corrupt and twist to the service of the Dark Gods. However, exceptionally devoted and powerful Sorcerers can mark even the most pious soul for the Warp to devour, slowly but surely turning them into raving madmen only concerned with their own chaotic desires.
- Warp Charges: 3
- Malediction.
- Target: Enemy unit.
- The enemy unit must make a Ld check immideatly, and once in every enemy Psychic Phase the rest of the game. For each point the unit loses one of these Ld-tests by, the unit takes one random wound with no save available. For each time the unit has failed one of these Ld-tests, the future tests must be taken with a -X modifier (models with Stubborn ignore this modifier), where X is the number of failed Ld tests. Additionally, as long as the unit has failed the Ld check in their turn, the unit takes Fear tests on a -2 modifier. Fearless units are immune to this Psychic Power.

• I want to say no on the basis that they are sort of unnecessary, but they are just too damn cool for that. This codex won´t be changed until the start of March because of an upcoming tournament, I want our CSM player to have enough time to properly figure out what he wants to take, but after that this discipline will most certainly (with some changes) be implemented.

Discipline of Chaos

0. Warp Surge.... Warp Charge 1

Warp Surge is a Blessing that targets a model in the Psyker´s unit. The target must immediately take a Leadership test, if the test is passed the target regains D3 wounds lost earlier in the battle and gains +3 Strength and Initiative until the start of the next friendly psychic phase.

1. Dark Blessings.... Warp Charge 1

Dark Blessings is a Blessing that targets the Psyker´s unit. All weapons carried by models in the Psykers unit gain the Shred, Soul Blaze and Get´s Hot special rules. Models affected by this psychic power suffer an AP - wound for each To Hit roll of 1 they make in close combat, if the To Hit roll is re-rolled then the wound is nullified.

2. Chaotic Infestation.... Warp Charge 2

Chaos Infestation is a psychic power which targets any point within 12" of the Psyker. All enemy units without the the Stubborn and/or Fearless special rules reduce their leadership by 3 while within 3,5" of the point. All enemy ground units treat all terrain, including open ground within 3,5" of the point as Difficult and Dangerous Terrain. All friendly models gain the Daemon special rule while within 3,5" of the point. Friendly models attempting to Deep Strike within 3,5" of the point do not scatter. Remove the point at the start of your next psychic phase.

3. Lingering Darkness.... Warp Charge 3

Lingering Darkness is a Malediction with a range of 24". At the start of each of your opponents turns the unit must take a Leadership test on 3D6, the unit gains a Dark Token for each point the test is failed by. Control of the unit along with any characters in the unit is immediately transferred to you once the unit´s number of Dark Tokens exceeds the highest leadership value in the unit. This power has no effect on models with the Soulless, Synaptic Creature or Instinctive Behaviour special rule.

This is what I´m thinking, feel free to critisize and/or playtest your own and/or my version of the Discipline.

I might add that I didn´t copy your fluff text, at this stage no fluff text is in the Angry Codices as I wanted to keep them clean and that hasn´t changed quite yet, there might come a time where I wish to have fluff in the codices, but I think a codex should be for playing the game. I also don´t have any problem with (most) GW fluff, my vision is that fandexes replace the crunch and then GW can keep on producing fluff and miniatures. Angry Pirate (talk) 15:46, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

• Yeah, the fluff was just to get the feel of each power across. I like the ideas here; Dark Blessings and Chaotic Infestation is pretty cool, and I can live with Lingering Darkness instead of Wake the Warp, but your Warp Surge seems overly strong. If you target a Warmonger with that thing every turn (which shouldn't be difficult, really), that mofo's never gonna die, ever. I like it still, but I think it should be either 1 Wound to a IC or, as with my version, X Wounds to the unit, where X is the amount you win the Ld chek by. TheWiseDane (talk) 15:55, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

• Then you are paying at least 60 additional pts to make your Warmonger into an even more crazy beatstick, who still gets Instantly Killed by S 8+ and who still cannot instantly kill T4 characters. Now if you make him Nurgle we can start to talk about a truly tough character. But even then there are things with S 10. I know it might seem OP, along with a lot of the other powers I made, this is intentional. The only psychic powers which are used are Prescience, Invisibility, Endurance and Daemonology. Psykers aren´t taken unless you want these things, Psykers simply haven´t been strong enough thus far in 7th edition 40k.

• Oh I totally agree with you there; Psykers having abilities that weaker than many shooting attacks is just so stupid! Happy to see that you want to make Psykers proppa powerful; kinda like how wizards in Fantasy are so intrical to the game that the meta is build around them and using them to buff your units? TheWiseDane (talk) 09:22, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

• I think 8th went a little overkill with the Wizardry, I think 7th had a nice amount of Wizardry. I don´t want them to be the focus of the game, just another option. I can´t tell if you are being sincere or you are fucking with me... Angry Pirate (talk) 10:58, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

• well I ain't laying ready for another go in your appartment, so no. It's more a general feeling, that the tough-to-use, random Psychic powers should be very powerful, given the stuff you have to go through to get it off. I don't know much about the differences between the editions of Fantasy, so I can't say anything on that note. I just love how Fantasy meta is more like "This unit isn't that great, but if I pop a Shadow Wizard Lord at the side and keep the buffs coming it'll be balla", whereas 40k is more like "Eh. Sometimes I can shoot lightning. Maybe you should just use the points for some Centurions instead.". TheWiseDane (talk) 11:12, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

• In 7th edition you had 1/2 level 1 wizards with anti-magic scrolls or 1 level 4 and 1 level 2 wizard. In 8th edition you had 1 level 4 and 1 level 2 or another level 4. In 7th spells helped you win, in 8th they decided battles. Psykers definitely shouldn´t be mainstay. Angry Pirate (talk) 11:26, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

• Of course not; too many factions have no access to them to do that in a fair an balanced way. What about the standard diciplines, by the way? Should they be buffed somehow? TheWiseDane (talk) 11:59, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

• The Angry Initiative or whatever you want to call it does not and will not change anything in the main rulebook. Angry Pirate (talk) 12:03, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

• Oh that's sad. IG and vanilla Space Marine getting shafted here... Anything else to talk about with the CSM Angry Codex, anything I can help with? TheWiseDane (talk) 19:27, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

• If you have any cool ideas for Possessed or Tactics for other Warbands that would be much appreciated, if you need something to do you could start doing the incredibly monotonous work of adding in every unit in the codex. But I don´t see any reason why you should do that, I´ll get around to it once I finish the SM codex. Besides I don´t really want to edit the codex until the 29th. Angry Pirate (talk) 22:05, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Unit Editing/Creation

• Well, I can give ideas.

On the Possessed, I think the way to go is to make them more like the shock-troopers that the Gal Vorbak are in 30k. Not all the way, but some part of the way. First of all, no table. It's just replacing thoughtful writing with lolchaosizrandum, which is exactly what the Angry Initiative (good naming btw) is against.

I'd give each of them two Wounds, first of all, but keep it there. No FNP (a severely overused USR in my opinion); let the Daemon USR and power armour help them do what they do. Next, give them either Rampage (random attacks; a lil' random ain't no big issue) or Rending; or maybe both, if we give them the correct points. As a catch, I would not keep them as Fearless, but let them have regular Marine Ld, or even Ld 7, to represent their sporadic nature in comparison to the non-chaotic Traitors. Stubborn is par for the course, they should have access to VotLW, and with Daemon, they are immune to Fear. I think that's all they need.

On other Warbands or Legions, I think it'd be worth it to brush up the Black Legion rules. I posted my idea up in the above section (Merciless Fighers (all model does one additional attack at I 1 if you outnumber your enemy in melee), Perhaps free Veterans of the Long War for all Characters, HQs and Chosen).

Okay, so this is more of a general thing, but... Shouldn't Chaos Space Marines have Fear in general? If I were an Imperial Citizen, the one thing I'd dread more than anything would be to be attacked by a fleet of Traitors; they are half baked in Chaos most of the time :D

• Those ideas are useful.

The thing about Black Legion is they have Preferred Enemy (Imperium) which in a setting which is all about the Imperium is very powerful. I can´t give them any further special rules.

An Ogryn would be scary as well. It´s not like Fear affects regular imperial soldiers a lot since Chaos units will be winning in melee either way, Fear is also a lot more powerful now that SM no longer have ATSKNF. Fear is reserved for only the most fucked up of fucked up shit, primarilly things which have a supernatural fear causing effect rather than just being strong. - Angry Pirate

• I honestly think that the Possesed ideas are great! Giving them two wounds will make them much more useful and yet giving them obvious weaknesses. They'll be the Chaos version of Wulfen, which they tbh should have been in the first place.

And yet I believe we need to be more precise. Giving them Rampage is in my opinion not an option seeing as this will almost certainly have them replace Berzerkers as the anti-horde melee unit. That isn't to say they shouldn't have some funky business up their sleeves, but I don't think it should be rampage. Still a big fan of the two wounds though, we just need to make sure their role in the game is unique and uncontested (or only weakly so). Also really like the merciless fighter, but perhaps it is too situational? I don't know, I have not thought it through at all. I like them getting more unique special rules to distinguish them from their loyalist counterparts - TheRavenousEye

• That's how I feel about Prefered Enemy (Imperium); I don't like rules like that, that makes a model better against specific factions. For example, Farsight Enclave is good against Orks, but why not instead make some sort of rule that makes them better at fighting big units? I mean, experience against one kind of Mob would've been useful against other units. That's the same for Black Legion; I want them to have rules that show their aptitude for war, not their relation to another faction. I mean, we don't give Imperial Fists extra rules against Iron Warriors, do we? It'd be fluffy, but their rules automatically complements them.

That's why I like Merciless Fighters - It pays to large infantry formations, and VotLW to all Characters plays to their history.

In the same vein... I know Hatred (Space Marines) is fluffy, but it's also an amazingly specific rule. Should it perhaps be changed too, to work against all factions, but still be fluffy? Maybe keep it to the HQs?

Possessed could be our Elite Anvils; the guys you use to catch and keep up a tough unit, like SS/TH Termies, but more defensive. What about Rending and Concussive, to represent their appendages? TheWiseDane (talk) 11:51, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

• The Black Legion is all about fighting the IoM, fighting the long war.

Imperial Fists haven´t spent ten thousand years fighting the Iron Warriors. Both the Imperial Fists and the Iron Warriors specialize in siege warfare, which led to a rivalry between the Legions. Hence why Imperial Fists have siege special rules and not anti-Iron Warriors special rules.

While anti-horde tactics might be applicable against a variety of opponents, knowing how Ork Trucks are built and knowing the biology of Orks is specific to Orks. That being said I know very little of Farsight´s fluff.

I don´t exactly see what an Initiative 1 attack has to do with the black legion, all most CSM legions are assholes. The amount of times you´ll be outnumbering your opponent are going to be few and far between. The special rule does not foster Black Legion game play, it fosters a semi-horde tactic, which has absolutely nothing to do with the Black Legion.

As a side note, VoTLW is going to be removed. It´s also not going to be replaced by anything. I feel like the new legion rules make up for that loss. - Angry Pirate

I suppose, yeah. All I want is that the pre-heresy feel of the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus is retained somewhat, like with Death Guard; they have a lot of Nurgle stuff, but they still have their chem weapons, which was a pre-heresy thing. It's something I feel is really important for any faction; they should not be build entirely around being an antagonist. Seen the Warboss for Eternal Crusade? The Ork fans are pissed, because he's completely based around beating up Space Wolves; he even has a goddamn Dreadnought Power Fist! It's kinda cool yeah, but it also takes away any individual coolness, because his thing is completely based on another faction.

So yeah, Black Legion has fought the Imperium forever, but should that be their entire thing? I don't think so; I think that'd be sad. Merciless Fighters gives extra attacks when you outnumber people, which is a 30k rule, which is why I included it. TheWiseDane (talk) 12:30, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

• I actually find it rather amusing they can´t just give it up and do their own thing and they constantly try to destroy/mess with the Imperium. Of course you might not like your favourite legion to be a joke, but his name is Failbaddon for a reason. Reading the Horus Heresy stuff has been on my to do list for a while, but I don´t think it´s gonna be before finishing SM, CSM, Tyranids, Eldar, Inquisition, Assasins, Orks and Mechanicum, most likely in that order. Which means it´s not going to happen before June. As far as I know though the Luna Wolves weren´t dicks, I don´t see why they should be when they join the dark side.

It should also be noted that the Black Legion is a mix of a ton of legions and new Marines, most of the Luna Wolves stuff has probably been washed out by the addition of many new members who weren´t really initiated into the Luna Wolves but rather into the Black Legion which is entirely focussed around destroying the imperium. - Angry Pirate

• Well, they were pretty ruthless on the battlefield and used overwhelming numbers and manuvering to rob the enemy of any chance of winning. Also, they had units like the Justerian and the Reavers made entirely to smash through an enemy line and fuck shit up; HQs and Command Squads mainly. That pays mostly to the balls-to-the-walls melee units that Orks have, but not mad, like the World Eaters. So instead of just plain more attacks, Merciless Fighters make you outbeat your enemy instead. Could also have a rule that lets Black Legion take four Elite and/or three HQs, to represent their strength as a unified legion that have fought forever.

For Alpha Legion BTW; could we rob Alpharius of his "I bring in my Reserves instead of yours" special rule, to make AL a bit more, I dunno, fun and different? Like, on a roll of 5+, the enemy brings in one of your units in Reserve instead of their own? TheWiseDane (talk) 14:11, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

• It´s certainly a nice idea, but I´m not sure about the power level of the AL right now, so I don´t think they can have it for free. Also the only things Chaos has in reserves is Heldrakes. It would basically be an aerial superiority special rule since DS and Outflank aren´t really worth a damn and only an insane person would put a unit into normal reserves. - Angry Pirate

• Yeah, that'd be stupid; what if Infantry and Jump Infantry got Outflank to compensate? I mean, using Outflank is risky in and off itself, and if you use Deep Strike,the risk gives to itself. I think it could be pretty balanced; they don't have much other rules than that anyway. (talk) 14:35, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

• They already have Outflank through Infiltrate. You can have a lot of power in one rule. Infiltrate means you get to always counterdeploy and in 40% of your games you can counter deploy AND go first. - Angry Pirate

• So remove Infiltrate and give Outflank instead? I mean, Alpha Legion isn't a sneaky faction, they are a disorienting one, so giving them sneaky-abilities isn't really that fitting anyway. TheWiseDane (talk) 16:14, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

• I´d say the infiltration of 10+ of the 18 legions is a fear worthy of the Infiltrate special rule. They also remained a myth until their primarch(s) arrived. I´d say both the fact they remained a myth and the fact that it´s primarchs also makes them sneaky. - Angry Pirate

• But they're not good at staying out of sight and sneaking (except for their Headhunters an' such), they're good at keeping information out of enemy hands, so no one knows exactly what they're doing at any time. So an infiltrating Alpha Legionarrie is not hiding, he's in plain sight. He just know how to not tell the enemy that he's not a part of them. That's why I'd like to give them rules that fuck with the enemy; sneaking is for the Raven Guard and Night Lords.

I guess the equivelent loyalist legion would be either the modern Dark Angels or the old Ultramarines. Dark Angels don't hide, they hide their intense angst and homosexiality behind bathrobes, and Ultramarines just use tactics that improve themselves in a way the enemy can't efficiently beat. TheWiseDane (talk) 21:52, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

• It´s not like the Raven Guard are rogues in a D&D campaign. You´re going to fail your sneak check if you´re wearing plate. It´s a question of gamification. How did the AL end up 6" closer to your opponents lines? They didn´t fucking tell me. You figure something out, maybe they were whistling and singing when suddenly someone saw the hydra on their shoulder, maybe they were hiding out in a town and made an ambush when the opponent came close enough. Also the thing about denying your opponent information is pretty well represented by you deploying after deployment has finished. I´m perfectly aware that the whole sabotage aspect isn´t there, but there is a warlord trait table for that.

Armoury

• Warp Shell. Nuff said. TheWiseDane (talk) 14:14, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

Warp Shell.

Cost: 15 pt.

Can be taken by any HQ with a Bolt Pistol, Bolter or Combi-Bolter.

Range	S	AP	Type
18"	D	1	Assault 1, Destroyer, Gets Hot, One Use, Warp Shell.

Warp Shell: The Daemon infused within a Warp Bolt Shell isn't particularly fond of being put into such a miniscule and meaningless object, and longs to wreak havoc upon whoever is closest when the Bolt is released from its chamber. Gets Hot results from a weapon with this special rule are resolved at AP 2.

• Realized how bonkers the table were and changed the rule - Dane.

• Not sure which one I like better, but I think a unique bolt pistol with S D would be better for the game. It´d be kind of ridiculous to have 4 guys running around with one use S D weapons IMO.

I changed the rule into something that fits the current version, hope you don´t mind. Feel free to change it to something different though, I´m not really sure where you are going with it. Angry Pirate (talk) 17:40, 10 March 2016 (UTC)