Talk:Codex - Dark Eldar Angry Emo Edition

Rules of Angry Discussion Pages

• I want friendly analysis not unfriendly criticism - Napoleon Hill.

Everything up for discussion, as a basic rule the Angry Pirate either needs to agree with a change, or if you think a change I made is bad then I will (with a few exceptions) revert it back to how it is in the official release. Things that I might not want to change are things that go against core tenets of the Angry Initiative (like expanded randomization tables or reducing the pts costs of datasheets which I find to be clearly OP (like Wraith Knights or Gladius Strike Forces)). BTW The Angry Pirate wins edit wars, so don't even try me. The likelihood of mods citing with someone having done no prior work and just deciding something needs changing is miniscule, so even if I wasn't on 1d4chan multiple hours the end result is you getting banned or amusing me with your weak attempts of changing ssomething through continuing to change something.

Changing my view of the cost of a unit can either be done by playing a couple of games with a unit or doing some math comparing it another unit (preferably both basic Tactical Marines and another unit that is similar to the one you want changed. Changing rules can be done by either showing me that the expansion of a rule makes the game so much more fun that it's worth any extra hassle it brings or by showing that the current rule can be shrinked without losing signifigant amounts of fun.

Finally anything that is vague or badly written you can just change yourself, unless it is an endemic problem (like what does "*All models may take x" mean? Is it the same as any model may or is it the same as the entire unit may?). Then you should suggest a change in the discussion page so I can work through all the codices at once when I have time instead of it taking half a decade like a certain corporation does) Angry Pirate (talk)

Format

• Put space between the numerals and pts like this (5 pts) instead of this (5pts).

Start each of your posts on this page with a *.

Start each line after the first with a :.

Do not indent your post. It makes it a hassle to read on smaller screens. This shows you what a hassle it is. This shows what a hassle it is. It really is a hassle. I view all my pages in half my screen so I can view a codex while writing shit and it is a hassle if you indent your posts.

Always post at the end of a comment chain, not in the middle.

If you use a name, which I would appreciate if you did, just post it at the end of your last line.

I will try to regularly minimize discussions to make it clear what is currently being discussed, if I have minimized your post before replying just remove the minimizing code.

Do not change the format before bringing it up in a discussion page. I manage more than 20 codices, while I appreciate you trying to add a cheat sheet for the profiles of units or adding hyperlinks between parts of a page, someone is going to have to do it for the other 20 pages, this guy -> Angry Pirate (talk)

PDF

The PDF is updated upon request. Versions with alternate art will be made upon request. Angry Pirate (talk) 12:29, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Changes From the Official Codex

• Models from this Codex do not follow the FAQ and Errata given by GW for the Dark Eldar, since it it is a newer codex and therefore invalidates the outdated FAQ and Errata. Errata will directly modify the page and rules questions can be asked in this page.
• Models from this Codex DO follow the FAQ and Errata given by GW for the rulebook. Notably this means:

- Units embarked upon a Fast vehicle fire snap shots when their Transport moves more than 6" in the Movement phase.

- Units may only use one grenade each Assault phase.

Names

• Blast pistol has been changed to darklight pistol.
• Blaster has been changed to darklight blaster.
• Dark lance has been changed to bright halberd.
• Enhanced aethersails has been changed to aethersails.
• Night Shields has been changed to night shield.
• Splinter racks has been changed to weapons storage.
• Units have names, members of the arenas of Commorragh operate in Cliques, members of the Kabals operate in Gangs, members of the Haemonculus Covens operate in Cells, units including Beasts operate in Packs, Incubi operate in Brotherhoods, Scourges operate in Flocks and Hellions operate in Courts.

Realspace Raiders

• Removed.

Realspace Raid

• New.

RESTRICTIONS:

This Detachment must include at least one Core choice and one Auxiliary choice. It may include any number of additional Core choices, up to three Command choices and any number of additional Auxiliary choices. All Command, Core and Auxiliary choices must be chosen from those presented below.

COMMAND BENEFITS:

• Four Dimensional Schemes: All units in this Detachment have the Outflank special rule.

COMMAND CHOICES:

LEGENDS OF MURDER AND TORTURE

• Drazhar, Lelith Hesperax, or Urien Rakarth

CORE CHOICES:

KABALITE RAIDING PARTY

WYCH CULT

SCARLET EPICUREANS

AUXILIARY CHOICES:

ARENA FIGHTERS

• 1 Beastmaster Hunt or Reaver Clique

CORPSETHIEF CLAW

COVENITE FLESHCORPS

DARK ARTISAN

GROTESQUERIE

KABALITE FIRE SUPPORT

• 1 Razorwing Jetfighter, Ravager, Raven Strike Fighter, Reaper, Tantalus, or Voidraven Bomber

SCALPEL SQUADRON

SHADOW DAEMONS OF COMMORARGH

• 1 Mandrake Pack

THE EXALTED COURT OF BARON SATHONYX

TWISTED MERCENARIES

• 1 Hellion Court, Scourge Flock or Incubi Brotherhood

Dark Eldar Wargear List

• The Armour of Misery is now Archon only.

Archon

• +1 WS.
• Is now equipped with ghostplate armour.
• Can now be upgraded to a Scourge Archon or Reaver Archon.
• Can now take the Combat Drugs special rule.
• May take one of five Warlord Traits. Drug Lord, Night Attacker, Murderous Assailant, Malignant Mastermind, Paragon of Evil.

Drazhar

• +3 WS
• The Master of Blades special rule now grants +2 WS to Incubi and Klaivex in Drazhar's unit instead of +1 WS.
• The Muderous Assault special rule has been removed.

Haemonculus

• -1 WS, BS, W and A.
• Can be upgraded with +1 WS, BS, W and A.
• May take one of five Warlord Traits. Intimidating Presence, Lead by Example, Master of Ambush, Night Attacker, Well Prepared.

Urien Rakarth

• New Warlord Trait.

WARLORD TRAIT:

• Ancient Evil: The Warlord and his unit have the Fear, Eternal Warrior and It Will Not Die special rules.

Succubus

• Now has the Rampage, Crusader and Swiftstride special rules.
• May take one of five new special rules.

- Dance of Doom

Close Combat Attacks made by a model with this special rule gain the Instant Death special rule on to wound rolls of 6 while fighting in a challenge.

- Dance of Air

A model with this special rule may move during the Movement phase and Run during the Shooting phase, despite being locked in combat, ignoring intervening models. She must, if possible, end her move in base contact with an enemy model.

- Dance of Shadows

At the start of the Close Combat Phase, a model with this special rule may choose one enemy model in base contact that is not either a Vehicle or a Monstrous Creature. That model loses D3 Attacks to a minimum of 1.

- Dance of Blood

A model with this special rule gains D6 attacks instead of D3 from the Rampage special rule.

- Dance of Death

Close combat attacks made by a model with this special rule are resolved at AP 5.

• May take one of of five Warlord Traits. Coordinated Assault, Master of the Vanguard, Night Attacker, Tenacity, The Dust of a Thousand Worlds.

Lelith Hesperax

• Now has the Legendary Fighter Warlord Trait instead of the Blood Dancer Warlord Trait.
• Legendary Fighter: Your army gains 1 Victory Point for each enemy character slain by your Warlord in a challenge.
• Quicksilver Dodge has been changed.
• Quicksilver Dodge: Lelith Hesperax has a 4+ Invulnerable save. This is increased to a 3+ invulnerable save against all wounds inflicted in close combat. It is further increased by a point, (Both against close combat attacks and shooting attacks), if Lelith Hesperax is within 6" of a model with a Flickerfield.

Kabalite Warrior Gang

• Can no longer be upgraded to Kabalite Trueborn.
• Armed with shard rifles instead of splinter rifles.

Wrack Cell

• Troops choice instead of Elites choice.
• -1 WS and BS.
• Now have the Combat Drugs special rule.
• Now have the Agony Unleashed special rule instead of the Power from Pain special rule.

Wyche Clique

• +1 WS.
• Now have the Crusader, Rampage and Swiftstride special rules.
• Can no longer be upgraded to Bloodbrides.

Court of the Archon

• Elites choice instead of HQ choice.
• Always takes up a slot in the Force Organisation chart.
• Must now include at least one Lhamaean, Ur-Ghul, Medusae and Sslyth.
• Lhamaeans get +1 WS and A.
• Sslyth are armed with a Sslyth blade instead of a close combat weapon.

Kabalite Trueborn Gang

• Kabalite Trueborn have +1 A.
• Dracon has +1 WS, BS, W and A.
• Now armed with power weapons and splinter pistols.
• Dracon now has the Stubborn special rule.
• May now take the Combat Drugs special rule.
• The entire unit may take haywire grenades.
• A single Trueborn Gang may take the Scourge Modifications special rule for each Scourge Archon in the same Detachment.
• The Dracon may take a shadow field.
• The Dracon may replace their power sword with an agoniser.
• If the unit includes a Dracon, the unit may take one of five new upgrades.

- Sons of Darkness

Models with this special rule gain the Shrouded special rule.

- Xeriak Ammunition

Any ranged weapons with the Poison (4+) special rule fired by models with this upgrade gain the Poison (2+) special rule.

- Cold-Blooded Killers

All models in a unit with this upgrade re-roll failed To Hit rolls when firing Overwatch.

- Murderous Prowess

All models in a unit with this upgrade gain the Preferred Enemy (Infantry) Special rule.

- Interceptors

All models in a unit with this upgrade gain the Interceptor special rule.

- Superior Resources

Two additional models in a unit with this upgrade may take items from the Heavy Weapons list.

Mandrake Pack

• Now have the Daemon and Rending special rules instead of the Shrouded special rule.

Grotesque Cell

• Now have the Combat Drugs and Agony Unleashed special rule.

Bloodbride Clique

• +2 WS and I +1 A
• Now armed with monomolecular dagger instead of close combat weapon
• Now have the Rampage, Crusader and Swiftstride special rules.

Incubi Brotherhood

• +2 WS.
• Now armed with tormentors.
• Now have the Stubborn special rule.
• The Klaivex may take a bloodstone.

Beastmaster Hunt

• Must include one Beastmaster.
• Razorwing Flocks now have +1 WS -1 S and T
• Clawed Fiends now have a 4+ Sv.
• Beastmasters and Razorwing Flocks are now Jet Pack Beasts.
• Beastmasters are now armed with a shard pod instead of splinter pods.
• Beastmasters now have the Jink special rule.
• Khymerae now have the Flicker Attacks special rule.
• Razorwing Flocks now have the Eternal Warrior and Furious Charge special rules.
• Clawed Fiends no longer have the Night Vision special rule.

Reaver Clique

• Now armed with shard rifles and shard pistols instead of splinter pistols and splinter rifles.

Scourge Flock

• +1 BS
• Now armed with splinter carbines instead of shard carbines.
• Now have the Acute Senses, Avian Hunters and Outflank special rules.

Raider

• Front AV 11 instead of 10.
• Now armed with a night shield.
• May now take a webway portal.

Venom

• Front AV 11 instead of 10.
• Now armed with a shard cannon and shard rifle instead of a splinter cannon and splinter rifle.
• May now replace shard rifle and shard cannon with a twin-linked shard cannon instead of being able to replace splinter rifle with a splinter cannon.
• May now take a webway portal.

Hellion Court

• Hellions have +1 A.
• Hellarch has +1 WS and A.
• Now have the Dodge, Jink, Precision Shots, Precision Strikes and Skilled Rider special rules.
• May now upgrade one Helliarch in your army to Baron Sathonyx, a new (old) Unique character. Baron Sathonyx is a Helliarch with +1 WS and A and +2 BS and the Bones of the Seer, Master of the Skies and Night Shroud special rule.
• Bones of the Seer: An army including Baron Sathonyx may re-roll the dice to determine which player chooses sides.
• Master of the Skies: Baron Sathonyx and his unit may re-roll their Initative test when trying to make a Hit and Run move and may re-roll the distance when they perform their Hit and Run move, the second result stands, even if it is worse.
• Night Shroud: All models in Sathonyx' unit have the Stealth special rule.

Razorwing Jetfighter

• +1 FA and SA
• Now armed with a night shield, four implosion missiles and a twin-linked shard rifle instead of four monoscythe missiles and a twin-linked splinter rifle.
• May now replace four implosion missile with four necrotoxin missiles instead of being able to replace any monoscythe missile with a necrotoxin missile or shatterfield missile.
• May now replace twin-linked shard rifle with a shard cannon instead of being able to replace twin-linked splinter rifle with a splinter cannon.

Cronos Cell

• -2 I.
• Now have the Agony Unleashed special rule.
• Now armed with spirit tendrils.

Talos Cell

• -2 I.
• Now have the Agony Unleashed special rule.
• May now take one of five new special rules.

- Hunter Pattern

All models in the unit gain the Precision Strikes and Preffered Enemy (characters) special rule.

- Riaxos Pattern

All models in the unit change their unit type to Jump Monstrous Creature.

- Chainghoul Pattern

All models in the unit gain the Hatred special rule.

- Ironback Pattern

All models in the unit change their Sv to 2+.

- Behemoth Pattern

All models in the unit add +3 to their Strength characteristic.

Ravager

• Now armed with a night shield.
• May now take a webway portal.

Voidraven Bomber

• -1 BS +2 FA +1 SA.
• Now armed with a flickerfield and two void pulses instead of two void lances.
• May replace two void pulses with two darklight scythes instead of being able to replace two void lances with two dark scythes.
• May take four necrotoxin missiles or four monoscythe missiles instead of being able to take two shatterfield missiles and two implosion missiles or four shatterfield missiles or four implosion missiles.
• May no longer take night shields.

Carnival of Pain

• Removed.
• Freakish Spectacle no longer stacks with itself, meaning that if two units from different formations with this special rule are within 12" of an enemy unit, their Leadership is only reduced by 1.

Kabalite Raiding Party

• includes 1 Archon, 0-1 Court of the Archon, 2-6 Kabalite Warrior Gangs and 1-3 Kabalite Trueborn Gangs instead of 1 Archon, 1 Court of the Archon, 1 unit of Incubi, 1 Ravager, 6 units of Kabalite Warriors, 1 unit of Scourges, 1 unit of Hellions.
• Now has the Rule of the Kabal special rule instead of the Architect of Agony and Realspace Raider special rules.
• The Hunt from the Shadows special rule has been changed.

The Exalted Court of Baron Sathonyx

• New.

FORMATION:

• 3+ Hellion Courts

RESTRICTIONS:

• One unit must include Baron Sathonyx, all other units must include a Helliarch.

SPECIAL RULES:

• Skymasters: Units with this special rule may re-roll their Initative test when trying to make a Hit and Run move and may re-roll the distance when they perform their Hit and Run move, the second result stands, even if it is worse.

Grotesquerie

• May include a Haemonculus or a Haemonculus Ancient instead of a Haemonculus or Urien Rakarth.
• Freakish Spectacle is changed.

Scalpel Squadron

• Freakish Spectacle is changed.
• First Pickings is changed.

Corpsethief Claw

• Freakish Spectacle is changed.
• Let the Harvest Begin is changed.
• No longer has the Scout special rule.

Dark Artisan

• May include a Haemonculus or a Haemonculus Ancient.
• Freakish Spectacle is changed.
• The Formations Haemonculus or Haemonculus Ancient do not generate a specific Warlord Trait if they are the Warlord of your army.

Covenite Fleshcorps

• May now include a Haemonculus or a Haemonculus Ancient.
• Freakish Spectacle is changed.
• The Formations Haemonculus or Haemonculus Ancient do not generate a specific Warlord Trait if they are the Warlord of your army.

Levels of Alliance

• Craftworld Eldar, Eldar Corsairs, Eldar Exodites and Harlequins are Allies of Convenience instead of Battle Brothers.
• Armies of the Imperium are Come the Apocalypse instead of Desperate Allies.

Agony Unleashed

• Alternate version of Power from Pain. Same as the Power from Pain table found in the Haemonculus Covens.

Agony Unleashed Table

Turn Number	Special Rules
1	None
2	Fearless.
3	Fearless, It Will Not Die.
4	Fearless, It Will Not Die, Zealot.
5	Fearless, It Will Not Die, Zealot, Furious Charge.
6+	Fearless, It Will Not Die, Zealot, Furious Charge, Eternal Warrior.

Combat Drugs

• A roll of 6 now grants Stubborn and an additional roll on the table instead of +1 Leadership.

Dark Eldar and Haemonculus Covens Warlord Traits Table

• Removed.

DRUG LORD

Roll two dice whenever you determine the effect of Combat Drugs and choose which result applies.

MURDEROUS ASSAILANT

The Warlord may re-roll failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 while fighting in a Challenge.

MALIGNANT MASTERMIND

After Infiltration and Scout moves but before the game begins you may redeploy D3 units in your army, including placing them in reserve.

PARAGON OF EVIL

All Splinter Rifles, Shard Weaponry, and weapons with the Melee type, and not the Unwieldy type, carried by models in a unit joined by the Warlord gain the Master-Crafted Special Rule.

Crucible of Malediction

• Relic of Affliction instead of Arcane Wargear.
• 9" S D AP 2 instead of 3D6" S 6 no saves allowed.

Khaideshi Hermavores

• 2D6 instead of 1D6.

The Panacea Perverted

• Pass It Will Not Die rolls on 3+ instead of 4+.

The Nightmare Doll

• Cannot improve Feel No Pain beyond Feel No Pain (4+).

Djinn Blade

• Now has the Two-handed, Master-crafted, Shred and Betrayal special rules.
• The Sentient Blade special rule has been changed.

The Archangel of Pain

• Hits can be allocated to models with the And They Shall Know No Fear special rule.

The Parasite's Kiss

• Removed.

Flickerfield

• Now grants a 6+ invulnerable save to all models within 6". Models with the Dodge special rule receive a 4+ invulnerabl save against shooting attack and a 3+ invulnerable save against melee attacks.

Night Shield

• Now grants a 5+ cover save to friendly non-vehicle units within 6".

Grisly Trophies

• Now grants the Fear special rule the to any unit that disembarks from the model armed with the Grisly Trophies until the end of the turn instead of allowing friendly Dark Eldar models within 6" to re-roll failed Leadership tests.

Weapons Storage

• Affects both splinter and shard weapons.

Torment Grenade Launcher

• Now forces enemy units within 6" of the bearer to re-roll succesful morale checks instead of being a range 24" S 1 AP- Assault 1, Blast weapon that suffers units hit to pass a Leadership test or suffer a number of additional (ha) wounds for each point the test is failed by (ha). Unless the models had the Fearless or And They Shall Know No Fear special rules, in which case the weapon had no effect (ha).

Grav-talon

• Hammer of Wrath attacks made by the bearer are resolved at Strength x AP1 and have the Concussive and Graviton special rules instead of being at the usual Strength and AP and only with the Concussive special rule.

Hellion Skyboard

• Removed.

Reaver Jetbike

• No longer includes a splinter rifle.

Chain Flails

• Now confers the Rampage special rule.

Huskblade

• AP 2 with the Dissolving Strike special rule instead of AP 3 with the Instant Death special rule.

Monomolecular Dagger

• New.

Range	S	AP	Type
-	User	-	Melee, Shred, Monomolecular Blade

Monomolecular Blade: For each To Wound roll of a 6, the target automatically suffers a Wound, regardless of its Toughness. These Wounds are resolved at AP3.

Sslyth Blade

• New.

Range	S	AP	Type
-	User	4	Melee, Rending

Razorflail

• Now has the Precision Strikes special rule.

Baleblast

• AP 5 Assault 1 instead of AP 4 Assault 2.
• Now has the new Mark of Twillight special rule.

Mark of Twilight: During the Assault phase, a unit firing this weapon may be removed from the table and then placed in Close Combat with a unit it caused at one Wound to (saved or otherwise. This counts as a disordered charge.

Bloodstone

• New (old).

Range	S	AP	Type
Template	3	3	Assault 1

Bright Halberd (Dark Lance)

• Now has two firing options (S 7 AP 2 Twin-linked and S 7 AP 2 Lance) instead of one profile (S 8 AP 2 Lance).

Darklight Blaster (Blaster)

• Range 12" S D AP 3 with the Darklight special rule instead of Range 18" S 8 AP 2 Lance.

Darklight Pistol (Blast Pistol)

• S D AP 3 with the Darklight special rule instead of S 8 AP 2 Lance.

Darklight Scythe

• S D AP 1 instead of S 8 AP 2 Blast, Lance

Missile Weapons

• Monoscythe missile is now S 6 AP 2 Blast (old implosion missile)
• Necrotoxing missile now has the Ignores Cover special rule.
• Implosion missile is now S 7 AP 2 instead of S 6 AP 2 Blast
• Shatterfield missile has been removed.

Ossefactor

• Range 36"instead of Range 24".
• Now has the Boneshards special rule.

Phantasm Grenade Launcher

• Range 12" S 3 AP 5 with the Poison (4+) and Pinning special rules instead of Range 18" S 1 AP -.
• Soulfright has been changed.

Shard Weapons

• New.

	Range	S	AP	Type
Shard pistol	12"	4	-	Pistol, Shardstorm, Pinning
Shard rifle	24"	4	-	Pistol, Shardstorm, Pinning
Shard pod	18"	3	5	Assault 2, Shardstorm, Pinning
Shard cannon	36"	4	4	Heavy 1, Large Blast, Shardstorm, Pinning

Shardstorm: When a unit suffers one or more unsaved wounds, from a weapon with this rule, place a Shardstorm counter next to the unit. All other weapons with the Shardstorm type that fire at the unit gain the Shred type. Remove all Shardstorm counters at the end of each phase.

Shredder

• Now has the Shardstorm special rule.

Spirit Weapons

• Spirit Syphon is S user AP - Torrent with the Spirit Leech special rule instead of S 3 AP 3.
• Spirit Vortex is Range 30" S user AP and have the Spirit Leech special rule - instead of Range 18" S 3 AP 3.
• Spirit tendrils are new.

	Range	S	AP	Type
Spirit tendrils	-	User	2	Melee, Spirit Leech
Spirit syphon	Template	User	-	Assault 1, Torrent, Spirit Leech
Spirit vortex	30”	User	-	Assault 1, Spirit Leech

Spirit Leech: When a model, using a weapon with this rule, causes an unsaved wound(s) all Cronos in it's pass It Will Not Die rolls on a 2+ until the start of your opponents turn. In addition, all Cronos in the unit increase their Strength by 1 (to a maximum of Strength 10) until the end of the game.

Stinger Weapons

• Stinger pistol now has the Fleshbane special rule instead of the Poisoned (2+) special rule.
• Stinger pod is new.

	Range	S	AP	Type
Stinger pod	12"	1	5	Assault 1, Blast, Fleshbane

Void Pulse (Void Lance)

• S 8 AP 2 Blast (old dark scythe) instead of S 9 AP 2 Lance.

Dark Eldar Tactical Objectives

• Removed.

Changes from Previous Editions of this Codex

March - 2017

• Removed webway strike and replaced the option with webway portal, same effect.

Discussion

Misc

Leadership Shenanigans

• With most races now being high leadership or Stubborn/Fearless, most of the Dark Eldar leadership affecting equipment is once again left useless. What about them back to the original or simply change the rules somehow?

• Define high leadership. A "normal" Space Marine is leadership 7 (in the case of Scouts) or normally 8. Eldar, Dark Eldar are leadership 8 and sometimes 9. Mechanicus are leadership 8 and 9. I didn´t suggest AM getting a leadership buff, that is on you, I would rather remove it than change DE equipment. Nids, Crons and Daemons are immune, but Nids become extremely susceptible once you kill their synaptic creatures.

SM elites are Fearless but you shouldn´t be expecting to use terror tactics against veteran warriors.

A normal SM unit has roughly a 40% chance of failing a fear test, this is not a minor thing, not only does a failed test increase your dmg output by 33% it also decreases your damage intake in melee by 33%. Compounding means that each wound in the first round of combat is far more important than those inflicted in later rounds, a failed fear test is crucial.

The Armour of Misery is a mere 15 pts and gives you a huge chance of reducing an enemy unit´s WS to 1, it won´t win you any battles and it certainly won´t do you any good against veterans, but should it? Angry Pirate (talk) 21:00, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

Naming Conventions

• Whilst some of the changes made to Unit names strike me as appropriate to the fluff, which is all they really effect, others do not seem to mesh so well with what the Units would refer to themselves as.

Kabals

Vat-born and disrespected Kabalite Warriors are portrayed as both fodder to grind and the individuals doing the street-to-street fighting for territory in Commoragh. They are not portrayed as holding a great deal of political sway. Sybarites are either selected by the superiors of the group or self-selected through being the sneakiest, killiest bastard in the group. Gangs seems an appropriate term.

Trueborn Kabalites, however, hold themselves far above their vat-born peers, they are rich by comparison, outfitting themselves with better weapons and better gear. They form the backbone of a Kabal's political elite and are arrogant in the extreme. Eternally scheming and plotting coups to put themselves above their peers. Dracons sit at the extreme end of this, holding their position through cunning, scheming and well-timed violence. Gangs seems a summarily inappropriate term for their Units. Something with less connotations suggesting a group of street rats.

Cults

Wych Cliques seems appropriate.

As do Bloodbride Cliques. Though I feel it important to note that in the fluff they are 'Hekatrix Bloodbrides'. The rank and file of these Cliques is on the same level as the Leaders of the Wych Cliques. Syrens are nearly Succubi in their own right.

Reaver Cliques works, especially if we are trying to maintain at least a little bit of uniformity within the Cults.

Covens

This almost doesn't need discussion, the term Cells fits the fluff not only in a thematic way, but it is also used frequently throughout the Haemonculous Covens Supplement. Heck, that makes it Canon.

Street Thugs and Mercenaries

Hellions, outside of special cases such as Baron Sathonyx (who was an Archon before his tryst with a Farseer got him overthrown and he decided to take over a cluster of Hellion street rats), can be summarised as 'Wyches that wanted to be Reavers but never quite made the cut'. They are the Cult equivalent of Vat-born. Where positions amongst the Bloodbrides and Wyches are determined by skill, positions among the Hellions and Reavers are determined by 'who can get their hands on the sky boards and bikes'. Courts seems too formal. Though some humour could be made of it if someone somewhere made mention that "although the Hellions frequently insist on referring to their packs and gangs as 'courts' and insisting that they hold influence and sway over the Cults they attach themselves to, very few of their packs are acknowledged as more than political nuisances by even the lowliest Kabals and Cults.

Scourge Flocks, in the fluff, Scourges are Rich Eladrith Ynneas that go to Haemonculi and beg/ pay for wings to be grafted to their forms before flying off to the upper spires of Commoragh where they become mercenary politicians. So describing themselves as a 'Flock' would seem a bit demeaning. Perhaps 'Syndicate' would be better? Or something else of similarly dastardly connotations.

Beastmaster Packs...?

Incubi Brotherhoods is great. Full steam ahead.

• Changes were made for formation purposes basically to avoid saying 3 units of Kabalite Warriors you say 3 Kabalite Warrior Gangs.

I'd prefer to have all Kabal members have the same unit name, but your arguement is sound. Kabalite Trueborn Coteries and Kabalite Warrior Gangs seems fine to me. The fact that they both have Kabalite in their name also makes it clear that they are similar, but the difference between gang and coterie sets them apart.

I don't see a reason to change Bloodbrides to Hekatrix Bloodbrides.

The naming of Hellion Courts is my bad, I misconstrued a bit of fluff I read in the 5th ed codex to mean something it didn't. They are called gangs in the codex so I suppose that is what they should be called?

Changing Flocks to Syndicate makes sense. Angry Pirate (talk) 09:52, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

• Got an account because I want to contribute to this project. Leaving it at Bloodbrides makes sense, my point was more that the base Bloodbrides should have stats equal to a base Hekatrix unless that aspect of fluff is to be changed, but that discussion belongs elsewhere.

So if the changes go through, we would be left with the following, yes?

Kabalite Warrior Gangs

Wrack Cells

Wych Cliques

Bloodbride Cliques

Grotesque Cells

Incubi Brotherhoods

Kabalite Trueborn Cotories

Mandrake Packs

Beastmaster Hunts -Apologies, somehow got their new nomenclature mixed up with Mandrakes and meant to make a point about "Packs" not working when Razorwing Flocks are brought in this unit. Proceded to double check the source, but then failed to remove the error from my query.

Hellion Gangs

Reaver Cliques

Scourge Syndicates

Cronos Cells

Talos Cells

"Ikol (talk) 15:21, 20 March 2017 (UTC)"

• Coterie*, but otherwise it seems good. Angry Pirate (talk) 15:32, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
• Was writing pluralised for the sake of "May take 1-3 Kabalite Trueborn Cotories" scenarios. On the data sheets and formations where only one of them may be taken, unpluralised would make more sense. You wouldn't write "1 Archons," or "1 Wrack Cells" for example.
• Cotorie is a japanese hotel/cafe, coterie is what you are looking for. E after the t. Angry Pirate (talk) 08:08, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Weapons and Wargear

Flickerfields and Nightshields

• I have now played a remarkable amount of games with different types of Dark Eldar armies and has become annoyingly aware of my very positive win-rate. While I do not have the specific numbers I am actually guessing I have approximately a 75% win-rate against armies not utilizing Knights. Knights are still a problem for me, but that is not the point of the topic (and will not be for a long time as I am still testing the waters on anti-knight tactics). The point of this topic was brought to my attention by our Space Wolf player: Flickerfields, and thereby Venoms, are perhaps too good. Gaining Invulnerable saves on all units is flat out better than what the Raider provides (which is not only negatable, but also not relevant in CC). This leads me to my first suggestion:

- Flickerfields only provide a 5+ Invulnerable save in close combat to nearby units. The Vehicle still retains its own Invulnerable save against shooting.

However it has also been very, very limiting that CC squads almost are forced to buy Venoms or have Venom support units. While the change above would easily bring Raiders up to par, I am inclined to suggest the most obvious of changes despite it being a little bit of a fluff-butchering:

- Neither Raiders nor Venoms start with Flickerfields or Night Shields. They can be bought for an appropriate price.

Alternatively they could be mandatory, which might be for the best (and then they could perhaps be free?). We are not talking a reduction of points (by no means) but we are talking being able to take Raider-mounted melee squads. The Dodge special rule could grant a 5+ Invulnerable save to the squad of Wyches out of Combat. It was pretty ridiculous how good they were at matrixing out of bullets in the first place I guess...

Our Daemon player agrees with at least the general approach of the above, but he was a little unsure since I have been pretty lucky the past couple of games. - The Ravenous Eye

• Post battle reports... Please?

If things need a nerf I´d prefer to do it through points costs. I don´t want to remove any of the items from any of the vehicles.

It being necessary to support melee units with Venoms isn´t a bad thing IMO and your suggested change to the flickerfield certainly doesn´t change that. A big part of the Angry DEldar is changing the DE codex from being a mechanized army to a part mechanized and part biological army. I think this is best achieved with the AOE abilities and good points costs. If I can make melee units too bad to function on their own and Venoms too overpriced to be worth taking if not for their flickerfield then I can force you into taking a mixed army, which is my goal.

Am I right in my assessment that the night shields are more effective for the vehicle? I think we can easily agree that flicker fields are far more effective for support purposes.

Right now it sounds to me like the best solution would be to increase the price of venoms, that way you´ll be less forced to support your melee units with venoms and you´ll be more incentivised to put melee units into Raiders. Along with that a decrease in the price of trophies would make Raiders an even better option.

Alternatively it could just grant a 6+ invul to other units, the price would be adjusted accordingly of course. - Pirate

• Long time no see in here. But to get to the point, the problem is the invulnerable save is universal. I personally believe that a Dark Eldar army should be a healthy mix of Raiders and Venoms, however the Raiders are currently not really needed to support the footsloggers as the Venom gives the same bonus with extra benefits while providing better (arguably better) firepower. I believe the flickerfield giving a 6+ would be sort of okay (?) but this interferes with the two auras' ability to stack which I think is one of the important aspects of the change. A Dark Eldar unit is only optimally defended when within both a Night Shield and a Flickerfield. Units expecting to win combats easily would also benefit more from a Nightshield (due to the ranged save) while units more prone to duel its enemies would benefit the most from a flickerfield. The Venom's specialty would thereby be its firepower and not its aura. If you want we could perhaps invent some other special rule to distinguish it more?

I definetely stand by this suggestion, and think that opponent's would feel much more in control if the Dark Eldar army was mostly only situationally protected. - TheRavenousEye

Dark Laser

• Without having done the complete math, the Dark Laser replacing the Dark Lance has been a bit of a nerf in terms of taking out, not only large vehicles, but also medium vehicles as well. The upgrade to the Dark Laser currently does not "feel" worth it to me and perhaps should be a free exchange between weapons (?). Also, the Dark Lance is now almost completely removed from the Codex. Despite it being a change I have had some major say in, as in I said that was a good idea, perhaps it should be changed so that either the Dark Laser merely changes name to Dark Lance or the Dark Lance should be available to some units, e.g.:

- Razorwing Jetfighter
- Kabalite Trueborn
- Scourges (?)

-TheRavenousEye

• Changed the name to Dark Lance, glad we could get rid of the laser. I don´t feel like there needs to be two weapons, the Dark Laser fits way better into the Dark Eldar arsenal and playstyle.

Lowered cost on Raider and Razorwing Jetfighter.

Making Dark Lances or Dark Lasers viable on Scourges is impossible. It´s a heavy weapon, you don´t mount those on Jump Infantry. Angry Pirate (talk) 12:27, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

Huskblade

AP 2 huskblade

• The reason I don´t like AP 2 huskblade is because it makes a character wielding it able to fairly reliably take out ANY CC character in the game before they get a chance to strike. This is un-fun. Further AP 2 provides utility in the fact that the Archon will then be able to take on any opponent. What does the agoniser become? Something you take only when you don´t have points for the far stronger huskblade. The huskblade is right now a powerful anti chars with 3+ Sv, which you take when you assume that is what you will be fighting. An AP 2 huskblade you always take, except when you are short on points. - AngryPirate

• I will bring up the AP 2 Instant Death Weapon again now that the other codices have been playtested a little more. The reason I bring it up is because more anti-builds have emerged to make it a less viable option (particularly the one we have now). It is currently far from useless, but it is also very far from deadly against dedicated CC-Characters. To list it, most races can now bring T5 characters to the table, making the Archon with the Huskblade have to wound on 6'es unless he has a Strength buff (granted he gains this turn 4, however by then he has usually already charged).

The races which can bring T5 characters to the table include:

- All Space Marines
- All Chaos Space Marines
- Necrons
- Chaos Daemons
- Orkz

The races which cannot bring T5 characters to the table:

- Tau
- Sisters of Battle
- Imperial Guard
- Eldar
- Adeptus Mechanicus

If a character has a Toughness value of 5 and no invulnerable save, the chance of an Instant Death Huskblade kills him is 2/3. If he has a 4+ it is 1/3. Most Space Marine Characters have a 4+ Invul save. If the character has a WS of 8 or more the chance is at 50%-Invulnerable saves. These values are calculated if the Archon is charging.

Things to consider:

- The character almost undoubtedly has an invulnerable save lowering the chance of the Archon killing the character to below 50%.
- Unit champions can often intercept the Archon's challenge offer. Since the Archon is inefficient at killing regular troops (killing 1,33 T4 models on charge) the other character is able to roam free on the rest of the Archon's squad. Post this charge the Archon has fewer attacks to attempt killing the opposing character.
- The races incapable of bringing T5 characters into the fray should lose most CC's anyways to the Archon and his unit (except eldar) or be fast enough to dodge him (Eldar). 
- This is a buff to the Huskblade and as such it should at least go up to 30 pts. Perhaps 35 pts is reasonable. 

I might be arrogant, but I feel like it is perfectly reasonable that the Archon is losing against a character in Terminator armour with a Power fist or other Insta-killing melee weapon, while winning almost instantly against weaker characters.

• First off, the ability to buy T 5 characters does not make all melee characters that race has into T 5 characters. You can´t just sweet jump packing and on foot captains and chaos lords under the rug.

Second point, with shadow field and the old huskblade DE are the undisputed rulers of instant death challenging. Nobody wins against them, except characters with the Eternal Warrior special rule.

Third, it´s strong against multi-wound units. A thunderhammer might be able to ID a lot of things, but it does it at I 1.

Fourth, your character does not have to engage T 5 characters, but often times characters are forced to face your archon, you should also note that not all characters get a champion which can save them. While Heralds are somewhat cheap they don´t have an escape. A 50 pt sacrificial lord is also somewhat expensive for a sacrifice.

Finally it´s just not fun to have you main badass be hacked down at I 7 before he gets to strike and have you opponent walk away without as much as a scatch on his face or even a chink in his armour. ID also means your character made no distinction between a regular SM and a Captain except his 4+ invul. - Pirate

• 1. No it does not. However it is an option given to many of their characters, and this option counters the Huskblade Archon (per the math I just presented). Thus when knowing that you might face a Huskblade players will tend to equip their characters in such a fashion to survive it. It should also be mentioned that an Archon isn't exactly a monster in there. When you say he is the ruler, you mean he has a 2/3 chance of killing a Power Armoured Captain before he gets to strike.

2. Do the math. A Terminator Captain with a Power Fist and a Lightning claw (155 pts) has an approximately 28% chance of killing a Huskblade Archon. The Archon has the same chance of killing him, he just does it at I7. (120 pts)

3. Make it not function against Monsters alternatively? It doesn't make much sense that it works against monsters in the first place to be honest. Perhaps have the current rule work against Monstrous Creatures?

4. I believe the only race not getting a sacrificial lamb happen to be Necrons... The Tyranids can't do challenges atm and the Daemons have champions/Special character people worth scrap to take the first couple of hits. 

5. However the same thing happens to the DE player when he fails to kill the opponent. S6 is pretty common, and the Dark Eldar hit before the lesser races anyway. The Initiative at which the opponent strikes is irrelevant here, since the DE will always hit first (9/10 times).

• Daemons can upgrade their champions into demi HQ.

How is it not entirely god damn insane that your character wins on average against the thing that is supposed to counter it? (T5 with an invul and ID). You are saying it as if you should be winning against all characters and you are taking for granted the fact that you already win against most characters. Using the fact that you aren´t even on average destroying the perfect counterpick on the first round of CC is one of the shittiest arguements I´ve ever heard. You still win against a termie wolf lord on average, and you double your chance of killing them on the first round if you wait until turn 4.

I´m going to close this discussion after your rebuttal because to me it seems like what you are asking is entirely ridiculous. If it is AP 3 it just becomes an anti-necron weapon which I see no reason for the Dark Eldar to have.

If you want to discuss other avenues than ID we can continue to do so, but ID at I 7 isn´t fun. - Pirate

• How about if it got a price raise and gave the wounded character -2 Strength as well? It would make sure that the Archon did not instantly kill the other character but severely wounded him for the rest of the battle. Provided a Captain had a Power Fist he would then be Strength 4 and no longer a real threat to the Archon. If his squad slaughters the Archons he can still be saved but is at least wounded from the endeavor.
• The Archon would once again be almost unbeatable. If he causes at least one wound he would have defeated his opponent, it would more or less be the same as having ID. Feel free to test it at +10 points, but I am sceptical about how it would feel to play against.

Your scenario where his squad gets destroyed also seems fairly unlikely to me since any DE melee squad beats every SM melee squad except Terminators, who only get beaten by most DE melee squads... Angry Pirate (talk) 09:55, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Scourge Wings

• Change the models type to Jump Infantry and add +1 to the models ballistic skill characteristic.

• Done and done.

Webway Portal

• We discussed this in person the other day, however I feel inclined to continue the debate.

(What the TheRavenousEye is speaking of is changing the Webway portal to a permanent opening between the Webway and realspace, each turn a single unit may disembark from Reserves and it may assault in the turn it does so.)

As earlier mentioned, the ability to deep strike without scattering is wasted on the DE. I understand that means that it is much safer giving it to us but it is at the cost of a unique and play-style defining strategy. Not to mention that it would make life easier for certain units which are having a hard time getting transported. Grotesques and Beastmasters go in here, Beastmasters due to their squishy nature, and Grotesques due to their Very Bulky special rule.

Being able to launch an assault on the turn they come in from reserve opens up new possibilities when considering they will be unable to be targetted before getting to attack. Alternatively one could split the item into two, one doing the deep strikes and one being the old Portal - TheRavenousEye

• Deep Striking without scattering can be used for multiple purposes, a surefire way to put AP D6 or AP 3 templates right where you want them is nothing to scoff at. A vehicle can be destroyed before you ever get to use your flamers and then your entire squad might just be destroyed before they walk all the way over to the opponent.

Oh, I never meant to actually attack the current Webway Portal. I have even, reluctantly, used it in some of my games where it has proven a fine item. What I was referring to in terms of wasted potential due to our vehicles is that our transports all have the Deep Strike special rule. It seems overkill to me to have an item give Deep strike without scattering to units which already have the option for Deep Striking. - TheRavenousEye

A unit of one Beastmaster, 2 Khymerae, two Razorwing Flocks and two Clawed Fiend is 126 pts, they have 16 Wounds T 5, because they are Beasts they should be able to enter cover without any trouble, giving the Razorwing Flocks (which should be tanking any shooting damage) at least a 5+ cover save. At 126 pts you are going to have to look hard for a more durable and fast unit. Then when it´s time to charge you can shift the Clawed Fiends in front to soak up Flamer hits.

You don´t really need bigger units of Grotesques than 3, and if you think you do, you can always walk them across the table, if backed up by a spirit probe they have 6 W T 5 (or one wound T 5 against strength 10...), easily durable enough to march across the table. The ability to charge without being shot at is unneccessary for this unit. Further it is boring to enter close combat without being shot at first, rather than whine about taking a few flesh wounds (which can be healed by IWND) you should revel in the suffering you face, it will only last until you reach combat, where the Grotesques will be the ones dealing out the pain. - AngryPirate

• You know just as well as I, that walking things across the table is seldom going to get one anywhere with a movement of 6". A Grotesque to 35 points also currently kills 0,55 Space Marines in close combat or 1,4 Ork Boyz so dishing out the pain is quite an overstatement. The Spirit Probe is also handsomely paid for in the form of the Cronos Pain Engine. - TheRavenousEye

• 9,5"/turn :v). A Grotesque currently kills 1,556 if it assaults turn 4 or later. It kills 0,889 in following turns. Easily enough for 3 Grotesques to walk across the board and then Assault and kill a Tac squad seing as the Marines only do 0,09 W/Marine (0,07 if you have FNP (4+)) and you get IWND turn 2. Grotesques require a whole different array of weapons to combat compared to the rest of the DE, Heavy Bolters and Poisoned weapons don´t exactly come by the dozen when fighting an army against which high strength low AP, Blasts and Templates are your usual anti-weaponry. - Angry Pirate

• I don´t believe the play style belongs with the Dark Eldar, it´s like a full scale invasion, constantly sending in more units. This belongs with the Necrons, which already have it and Daemons which have Deep Strike instead. - AngryPirate

• The Dark Eldar are known to perform such invasions as well. The War of Dark Revelations, Know Thine Enemy (By Gav Thorpe I believe?) and The Long Midnight being three examples hereof. In addition it does not make much sense that it should close again, seeing as it happens to be their only way home without Raiders or Venoms. - TheRavenousEye

HQ

Archon

• With the minor changes to Combat Drugs and especially the buffs to units utilizing them, the Combat Drugs special rule is now more of an extra thing, which is excellent 50% of the time and more "meh" the other 50%. The introduction of Drug Lord was an interesting concept and one which should be supported, as opposed to killed. However, the addition of Drug Lord is currently a must. Not only does it double your chance of getting the legendary +1 Toughness, it also sets up the chance of getting something universally useful from 50% to 75%. The skill should not be totally killed, perhaps be rephrased to re-roll it, but it should at the very least be doubled in price. Maybe even more. I am still considering playing the Dark Eldar, but this is a minor, and yet an important change I believe we should just agree on that I play with during the tournament. - TheRavensEye

• You are doing your math wrong.

You´ve got a 1/6 chance of getting any one result. So without the upgrade you have a 17% chance of getting +1 T or any other result for that matter.

If you choose to re-roll all results except +1 T then you have a 11/36 or 30% chance or close to double your non-enhanced chance. You have a 21/36 or 58% chance of getting a good ability. This is merely 8% better than your un-enhanced chance. Although given, +1 T is far better than the rest.

If you choose to re-roll the "bad" results you have a 9/36 chance of getting any one good result (including the +1 T result) and a 27/36 or 75% chance of getting a good result.

Basically you either get double almost double the chance of getting +1 T OR you get a 33% increase in your chance of getting one of the good abilities.

You aren´t going to build an army around a single unique upgrade, no matter how cheap it is. The fact that the upgrade is cheap just means you will most likely take an Archon in a drug addled army. I don´t really think it´s weird that you´d get a dealer if your army is a bunch of drug addicts. Even if the cost of the upgrade was raised to something absurd like 100 pts it wouldn´t change the army much, simply remove your Archon and stuff in a little extra junk. Angry Pirate (talk) 11:50, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

The problem is, it is not currently a re-roll. I roll twice and pick the one I want. It isn't like the ability should be killed, but currently it is so much better than the rest of the abilities (unless doing something sketchy) that the other abilities are having a hard time keeping up. In extension, we could perhaps reconsider the prices of those upgrades (Like murderous assailant, which perhaps should go down to 5(?)). But the main point is that Drug Lord is currently too good with Bloodbrides, Wyches, Reaver Jetbikes, Hellions and Wracks all having Combat drugs by default.

Succubus

• As earlier discussed here are my takes on the potential Succubus specializations. A Succubus would of course only get to pick one of the following:

- Touch of Yaelindra (10pts): The Succubus' Close Combat Attacks gain the Instant Death special rule on to wound rolls of 6 when attacking models with the Character type.
- Gladiator's Grace (5pts): The Succubus may move freely during the Movement and Shooting phase, despite being locked in combat, ignoring intervening models. She must end her move in base contact with an enemy model if possible.
- Execrable Elegance (10pts): At the start of the Close Combat Phase, a model with this upgrade may choose one enemy model in base contact. That model loses D3 Attacks.
- Evil's Edge (15pts): A model with this upgrade gains +D6 attacks instead of +D3 from its Rampage special rule.
- (Femme Fatale (15pts): A model with this upgrade counts its close combat attacks as having AP3.)

In addition I believe the Succubus should go down to at least 80 points. My personal guess would be starting with 75 and then work our way from there. I understand how unrealistic it might sound to pay 110 for a model with reliably 9/10 Attacks Strength 4 AP2 Attacks in addition to a 3+ Invulnerable save and 3 Wounds, but there are many factors to consider in this puzzle.

The 3 wounds wil seldom come into play in challenges and against ranged attacks due to T3 and the risk of having her at the front of the unit

In comparison to a standard Blood Bride leader, the Succubus brings the Archite Glaive and two extra attacks on her profile. Compared to the 6 attacks which the Blood Bride brings for 46 points base (or 51 points) it is hard to justify the Succubus.

The Succubus has for a long time either been a budget Archon (old codex) or an overpriced Blood Bride and longs for a role of her own, which is the role of the specializations.

Eldar Characters fighter characters generally tend to have worse base statlines compared to the Characters of other races despite paying the same amount for the base character. The Succubus is currently one of those characters, hence the points reduction.

• Might change the points but the upgrades seem cool. Not sure what you would use the repositioning ability for, but it seems really fun.

I can see why you would think that, I´ll consider changing her points cost for the March update, in the meanwhile consider the following:

The model being at the front of the unit poses no risk whatsoever, any hits inflicted upon her can be Looked Out, please clarify because I cannot comprehend what you mean. There exists exactly 1 weapon with more than strength 6 (enough to Insta the Succubus) but below 8 (enough to Insta a Captain) that being the Warscythe. So most everytime you get 3 wounds so does a Captain and most everytime you get 1 wound so does a Captain.

Syrens and Bloodbrides have AP 3. Basically a Syren can´t touch a Terminator or a Captain with Artificer armour. A single Captain with artificer armour can soak up the attacks of 13,5 Bloodbrides. A Bloodbride unit which loses half its models loses half its offense. A unit of Wyches with a succubus which loses half of its Wyches still deals a lot of its damage purely due to the Succubus. It´s power also lies in how condensed a Succubus´ power is. This is especially important in units with Rampage where being outnumbered matters the world.

It really is your problem and your fault if you are using her as an additional Bloodbride. Why are you taking characters if you just want more wounds and more attacks anyway? This was the problem with Warhammer Fantasy 7th, characters had the damage output worth their points in rank and file models, which made them way too good in a lot of armies. Characters should serve other functions, such as making a unit good against something it wasn´t all that good against otherwise.

See above.

A SW Captain (so one without command skills) is 85 pts with WS 7, 3+ Sv 4++ Inv and a power sword or axe. Or 115 pts with a 2+ Sv (which the Archite Glaive ignores). You have more Initative and 2 extra attacks while outnumbered. You also get FNP (6+/5+) turn 2/3+ while the SW Captain gets Counter Attack. In short the SW Captain gets fucked. Where exactly is this magical cheap character which can beat a Succubus? Because from my point of view she is the queen of non-Unique non-monstrous creature challengers and just all around blender characters. She has problems with Thunder Hammers, but so does most other characters and it is for that purpose you have unit champions. If your opponent takes THs (or warscythes) on all his ICs then you should leave the Succubus at home, but if not then I see no good reason not to bring her. Angry Pirate (talk) 17:47, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

Elites

Incubi

• Oooh, I am aware how dickish this is. But Imma do it anyway. We've been discussing these for a long time now, but I think it's time we lay down the law. We have discussed the fairness of 60% of my unit and a transport surviving a battle with the same amount of Terminators. The current math wants me to survive with 40% and a transport. However, how come the Dark Eldar unit, which is supposedly their best anti-terminator unit, require a T3 3+ armour save a price of 25pts while killing 0,3 terminators a turn, while Pariahs get to kill 0,72 terminators a piece for 22pts, have a T of 4, FNP by default and of course a 3+ armour save. We have already discussed that the Incubi should not be viable without a transport, but I am so apparently paying for that transport in the unit's base cost. Did I mention Incubi survive with 0% if the opposing unit of TEQ's brought a better invulnerable save than 5+? Guess who doesn't care? I guess I should try Necron Pariahs in transports instead of Incubi. But wait, what's this? The Pariah gain supplementary rules? LD7 to all within 12"? Anti-psyker rules?

I am convinced this debate should now be over. You are fully aware of why I am planting this post on Incubi and not on Pariahs. Pariahs are not overpowered, Incubi are atm just flat out crap. - TheRavenousEye

• Battle cannon, thank you, thank you aaand good night. - Angry Pirate

• As opposed to me who... oh wait, I die as well! I just pay more points for the people dying. And well. After I killed those Terminators, I only have 2 guys left. I die to bolters! (P.S. Which Space Marine chapter uses Battle Cannons? I am severely hoping we are going up against Space Marines, otherwise we are both running around with glorified CCWs. Oh no wait. You have Armourbane.)

• Incubi survive with 25%, Pariah survive with 35% against Wolf Claw Wolfinators.

Pariahs are slow and have no way of becoming fast, they have no way of reliably engaging their target. Land Raiders aren´t worth it for Assault Marines, LRs are priced as a transports for elites, Venoms and Raiders are priced as transports for Troops. They are naturally going to be worth more to an elite unit than to a troops choice. If an Incubi transport survives they have an effective charge range of 20", while Pariahs will never, ever reach a charge range of more than 13". This is important because counter-charge units can defend against Pariahs, but not against Incubi. Only Beasts can make a defensive charge against Incubi, this is not the case with Pariahs.

So saying you want to take Pariahs in a transport is ignoring the fact that they cannot take a transport. Which is why all Necrons get to be as tough as they are.

Pariahs have shown multiple times that they are not worth it, you might say the same of Incubi, I beg to differ. Them losing to Necron Warriors is to be expected, just as losing to Hormagaunts is to be expected. Losing against a super Phaeron is unlucky, is all that it is, that fight should have been won by the Incubi. Them engaging monstrous creatures... Twice is a sign you should be bringing some anti-monstrous creature units to support them, not that Incubi suck.

Incubi have Initiative 5, which is critical because of the I of SMs and because of Sweeping Advances. This is also why Incubi win against Pariahs, just as they win against other elite SM units.

Incubi are good against all elite units, Pariahs are good against Termies, MCs and Vehicles. Vehicles can be bodyblocked and Termies can Deep Strike. Incubi are again, critically able to seek out and destroy their target. While Monoliths can counteract DSing Termies, they cannot help Pariahs find their other targets, which can drive away from them.

Pariahs have to be entirely out of sight to be safe from Battle Cannons while Incubi can get a 4+ Cover Save from ruins or a 5+ Cover or Invul from being near any of your vehicle or behind any of your units. Angry Pirate (talk) 08:44, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

• Just like all other Necron units, Pariah can be deep struck with a Monolith or be provided with a Night Scythe to make them fast. Meaning they have to take one turn of shooting before engaging their supposed target.

And of course that is to be expected. However I feel like you have been completely ignorant of the match ups which incubi actually win. The answer happens to be Assault Marines, Terminators (Without TH/SS) and Pariahs. Actually I don't even win against Pariahs. You hit me on 5+ and wound on 2+. No FNP. I hit you on 3+ and wound you on 4+, giving you FNP. Even with initiative 4 and costing 3 points more, I am going to perform a tie, winning with one dude. Even though my tactical flexibility is far below yours.

So here is the problem. Let's say that the unit I wish to run (aka the supposed optimal unit) is a unit of 5 Incubi with a Klaivex. You yourself has earlier (In the Voidraven discussion) claimed that running a unit of deep striking shooty Terminators is unviable. That leaves Lightning Claw Terminators or TH/SS Termies unless the squad wishes to take an LR. I do not win against TH/SS Termies. That leaves them being good against Lightning Claw termies.

It would be logical to think that they can merely duel normal space marines squads, but two questions inevitably arise in this case: 1. Why didn't I merely bring Bloodbrides who do the same job for 16pts a piece, and 2. How are the Incubi going to get the Space Marines in question out of their transport? If that transport happens to be a Drop pod it has no reason to unload its cargo within 20" of the Incubi, and if the transport in question is a Rhino that Space Marine squad has no reason to not merely sit in it cozily and destroy my transport with their Special weapons from the Rhino's firing points.

I do not comprehend why the Incubi should be more expensive than a unit which are flat out better. Claiming that there is no way to make Pariahs AS fast is true, but the Dark Eldar pay handsomely for the transport. It should not be reflected in their base cost. Also, as earlier mentioned, that Battle Cannon is never going to be aimed at the Incubi. When one can't take Bolter fire, there is no need to aim the heavy guns. I got 99 problems but a BC ain't one. If you get 10 Pariahs caught in a BC shot I feel bad for you, son.

The Incubi are good vs all elite units, however there seems to be a certain lack of those around which they can win against unless one wishes to go to the bank with the unit.

• Allowing them to be teleported does not make them fast, they need to get into 2" range, which is impossible in a lot of cases since most units can simply drive away from them.

Please forgive me, my math was wrong. I forgot a part of my equation, I was just flat out wrong. Incubi do not slaughter Pariahs as I thought. Your tactical flexibility comes from the fact that you can ride an assault vehicle, while mine comes from being at every place all the time. The thing is no matter where I am, it doesn´t help if Pariahs act only as a Terminator deterrent, while Incubi act as Terminator hunters.

I did not claim that DSing a shooty unit was bad, I said that DSing a shooty unit without a Pod was bad, because that would mean they would be susceptible to AP 2 blasts. I think DSing Termies are worth it, DSing shooty nators just need a 35 pt Pod to be viable.

Incubi win against TH SS Nators. Bloodbrides are good (insane while outnumbered) against normal Marines and decent against horde units, Incubi are good against all Termies and Marines. You take supporting units to deal with transports, things like Flyers, Scourges and Ravagers.

Units have to pay for their transport through their base cost, otherwise they will be OP once put inside a transport. Ignore the exact costs but assume the following:

- a unit of Wyches at foot are worth 50 pts
- a unit of Wyches in a raider are worth 100 pts
- a unit of Incubi at foot is worth 100 pts 
- a unit of Incubi in a raider are worth 200 pts.

Now I have to give the Wyches, the Incubi and the Raider a cost. Wyches is the more common of the two units and therefore should be the unit catered to. Wyches are put at a base price of 50 pts and because the raider needs to be worth taking for the Wyches its price is put at 50. Now the Incubi are worth 200 pts in a raider and the Raiders cost is 50 pts, therefore the Incubi are put at 150 pts, otherwise they would be overpowered while sitting in a Raider.

It is far more important that a unit is not broken in any context than it is important that a unit is fieldable on foot. This is why Incubi have to pay for their transport in their base cost, even if they don´t take one. Of course you can go for some sort of inbetween where the Raider is 60-90 pts and the Wyches are 30-40 and the Incubi are 110-140 pts. But the Wyches are simply more important. So taking Incubi on foot will never and can never be viable, because if they were viable in that way, they would be OP on a transport.

I was naming a major weakness of the Pariahs, a weakness which Incubi do not share. You don´t just get to ignore the weaknesses of your opponents.

Except they win against most elite units, I don´t get your point. As I already said, they win against TH SS Termies and Wolfclaw Termies and Vanguard Veterans.

Everything has a power curve which is dependent on not only a units own power but also the power of other units, you should expect that Incubi be UP if your opponents never bring models with Sv 2+. If they were not, then they would act as a damn preventing any models with Sv 2+ from ever entering a competetive meta containing DE. Termies are very powerful, but I geuss they can´t compete in cool factor with giant wolves.

I´m willing to let them remain as is at 22 pts with the nerfed tormentor. I have been conviced that this is fair.

I have also thought about changing their weapons, either to be +2 Strength, Shred or Fleshbane. But that won´t be before March.

I might also add that comparing units isn´t bad mannered, what´s bad mannered is your language.Angry Pirate (talk) 10:13, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Trueborn

• The Scourge wings do not seem worth it at the moment. I suggest putting them down to 4 points a model. They do not interfere with the role of Scourges so I believe it is entirely possible to experiment with the points cost of the wings. (Note: I believe I was the one who set their points cost to 5 pts a piece.)

Heavy Support

Cronos Parasite Engine

• The Spirit Probe has been tested a couple of games now, and is absolutely crazy. I will proceed to playtest it with it only adding +1 To Feel No Pain. Giving models a 5+ turn two and a 4+ turn three. It is currently not fitting with the fluff, but a major rework should be be postponed until after the tournament - TheRavensEye

• "Pulsing waves of spirit essence flow outward to those Dark Eldar standing near the Cronos, rendering them stronger and more vital even as the foe wither and crumble to dust."

Also you are suggesting changing it into how it is in the official codex, are you suggesting that it was secretly OP the entire time? The changes made to the Cronos is hardly even a buff, it is pretty much as powerful as it is in the official codex.

What have you played against? Did you test the new WW portal? You really should provide more information. I have a VERY hard time believing the Cronos in the official Codex - Dark Eldar are OP. You did notice the removal of their ability to regain wounds (replaced by IWND but still) and the 10 pt price increase on the probe right? Angry Pirate (talk) 12:05, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

I am aware... The problem lies partly in the combination of it, combat drugs and the easily provided cover and invulnerable saves which the dark eldar have nowadays. Very amusing, since we are almost as tough as Necrons when around our vehicles and Cronos, but incredibly frustrating for opponents. I am uncertain of its OP'ness, but I have a preeeetty good winrate with my current army. I'll test it further, but I'll FAQ it for the tournament if I deem it necessary. If I actually win for once, I don't wanna get the whinecity treatment :3 - TheRavenousEye

• Why don´t you just play the base codex and then spam Cronos...? I mean for gods sake, a single Dreadnought can if not utterly wreck a unit of Cronos, then at least hold it up for eternity. It´s not my problem if your opponents are idiots and feed the hungry soul monster. That never ends well..

Ideas for Patterns and Options akin to the Talos Pain Engine

- Koronus Pattern: The Cronos Parasite Engine gains the Jump Infantry Special Rule - 25 pts
- Iron-Ghoul Pattern: The Cronos Parasite Engine gains a 2+ Armour Save - 25 pts
- Iranon Pattern: Whenever the Cronos Parasite Engine causes an unsaved wounds, all friendly Non-Vehicle models within 12" gain +1 Strength until the end of the turn - 30 pts
- Restoration Pattern: Whenever the Cronos Parasite Engine causes one or more unsaved wounds, target unit within 18" gains It Will Not Die until the end of the turn - 10 pts
- Consumer Pattern: Whenever the Cronos Parasite Engine Causes one or more unsaved wounds, all friendly units with the Power From Pain or Agony Unleashed special rule within 12" gain +3" to their Charge distance until the end of the turn - 15 pts

-TheRavenousEye

• I don´t believe there is any fluff speaking of Cronos patterns, also it seems entirely unnecessary to me. Angry Pirate (talk) 12:22, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
• There is, however, fluff speaking of each Haemonculus individually crafting their Pain Engines to be unique works of Commorrite standard art. This suggestion would allow that aspect of the fluff to be somewhat represented. Though perhaps the term "Patterns" should be exchanged for something that suggests a less uniform and mechanical nature. They're Floating Frankenstein Abominations stitched together from the unwilling and oft' still screaming flesh of a Haemonculous' enemies. Not Imperial Tanks. "Ikol (talk) 15:20, 20 March 2017 (UTC)"
• There is no way to represent it and if the codex was to do justice to the idea then it would require at least 5 options with you being able to pick 2-3 of them. I'm not really interested in developing the ideas needed for them or try to balance such a system. Customisable units are a pain in the ass because you will always be left with a bunch of loudouts which may be fun but are less powerful than some which have more powerful synergy. Angry Pirate (talk) 10:06, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
• Fair point, though I would say that the same could be said of the Talos. Yet rules for its variation still exist in the actual codex. On that note, I believe it would make more sense for the table to read similarly to the Talos table, with buffs to close combat being replaced with buffs to the Cronos Cells ability to buff surrounding units.:

Ideas for Patterns and Options akin to the Talos Pain Engine MK2

Each Cronos Cell may select one item from each of the three lists. Buffs to the Cronos, Buff Friendly Strength/ Durability and Buffs to Friendly Movement.

• The entire unit may take one of the following:

- Iron-Ghoul Pattern...25 pts/model

All models in the Cronos Cell change their Armour Save to 2+.

- Drifting-Nightmare Pattern...15 pts/model

All models in the Cronos Cell may move up to 9" in the movement phase.

• The entire unit may take one of the following:

- Restoration Pattern...10 pts/Cell

Whenever the Cronos Cell causes one or more unsaved wounds, select one unit within 18" that has the Power From Pain or Agony Unleashed Special Rule. That unit gains It Will Not Die until the end of that Units next movement phase.

- Iranon Pattern...30 pts/Cell

Whenever the Cronos Cell causes one or more unsaved wounds, all models/units with the Power From Pain or agony Unleashed special rule within 12" gain +1 Strength until the end of that Units next movement Phase.

• The entire unit may take one of the following:

- Koronus Pattern...25 pts/model

Select one Infantry Unit with the Power From Pain or Agony Unleashed Special Rules within 18" per turn, per Chronos. That unit gains the Jump Infantry Special Rule until the end of that Units next movement phase.

- Consumer Pattern...15 pts/model

For each unsaved wound caused by the Cronos Cell, all friendly units with the Power From Pain or Agony Unleashed special rule within 12" gain +1" to a maximum of 6" to their Charge distance until the end of their next movement phase.

It needs some refinement, there are potential balance issues present with the "everything within X inches gains this buff" rules. But I think it could work with some minor tweaking. Thoughts?

• I can't find anywhere that says Cronos are unique. Your suggestion is pretty nice (I haven't really considered points yet), I think you mostly got around the issue of combos. Angry Pirate (talk) 08:08, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

• To the contrary, in the 5th edition codex unit entries for Talos and Cronos, mention is made that different Covens employ differing styles of each. I have compiled a very brief surmisation of evidence from the 7th ed Codex and Haemonculus Covens Expansion that supports my point.

"Each Engine of Pain is an individually crafted abomination, a semi-sentient fiend of stitch-puckered flesh and jagged metal dredged from the darkest recesses of its creator's psyche... Whatever the case, a Haemonculus will construct his Engine of Pain with as much care as an artist would lavish upon his magnum opus." -Page 37, Dark Eldar Codex 2014

Other quotes from that codex include; "Every Engine of Pain is different. However, these foul machines do follow certain patterns and templates, and those engines that bear enough similarities to one another are loosely grouped together for ease of reference.", "There are many hundreds of variant Engines of Pain at large...", "Chief among these are the Talos Pain Engine and the Cronos Parasite Engine."

To me, that says that there are indeed a great number of variations between each Haemonculus' rendition of Pain Engines, that there are many we simply are not granted models or rules to represent. Talos and Cronos happen to be the most common.

In the Haemonculus Covens expansion, many mentions of Covens having differing styles are made. Particularly during the faction page for the Ebon Sting Coven. "Ikol (talk) 03:56, 22 March 2017 (UTC)"

• It's in the 5th and 7th ed ed entries for the Talos but not in the 5th and 7th ed entries for the Cronos, which was my point. Thanks for finding the actual occurances though. Now I'm kind of left thinking that they both deserve a system with access to multiple lists.

One thing that clashes with the idea that every Engine is unique is the sentence in the 7th ed Talos entry: "From the clanking Chainghoul favoured by the Prophets of Flesh to the drill-legged Shriveners that guard the Everspiral, each is an unholy terror." which suggests each coven uses a generalized pattern for their Talos. Angry Pirate (talk) 08:50, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

• Thank you. The lore trawl was fun.

This is the exact reason that my proposed list contains unit-wide options rather than model-by-model options. As I read it, each Coven has a favoured style of Pain Engine. Basic tenants such as means of propulsion, the types of creatures used to construct them, armour materials, general limb-structure and levels of sentience. The sort of things that could be represented in modelling and that is addressed in part by the proposed list.

Within Covens there would be smaller differences between each Pain Engine. In the case of the Talos, what guns it's carrying, whether it has an Ichor Injector or a Liquifier. As for the Cronos, these differences are currently limited to whether or not it's carrying a Spirit Syphon, Spirit Probe, or Spirit Vortex. 120.16.99.236 07:26, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Cronos Buff Thoughts

• We talked about the Cronos Parasite Engine getting a little base buff so that it would perhaps be possible to field it as a fighting Creature as opposed to a Probe carrier. I have a couple of suggestions:

• The first suggestion was the AP2 change to the Cronos' ranged weapons. Pros would be that it would become an anti-terminator unit, however the Dark Eldar do not lack one of those and as such, units would start competing with each other. In addition, the prospect of Non-scattering Deep Striking S5 AP2 Torrent Flamers is distasteful to me. (As are all deep striking flamers, but that is another discussion.)

• The Second suggestion is giving each Cronos Parasite Engine another shot with each Ranged weapon. This means that the Spirit Syphon and Vortex would be Assault 2 each.

• In extension of the point above, the Cronos could be given a base aura, giving increasing stats of surrounding units based on how many kills the Cronos unit has obtained throughout the battle. The stats should definetely be minor however. (The best stat perhaps being +1 Strength or Attack)

• Removing Torrent from the Cronos Parasite Engine's Spirit Syphon, giving it an AP value of 3 or 4 and then giving it an additional Spirit Syphon would make it a lethal killing machine against aggressive plays against more immobile DE armies.

Tantalus

• Given that the Forge World Model has two hull mounted Pulse Disintegrator Cannons, which fire twice as many shots as the standard Disintegrator Cannon, the Tantalus being equipped with two Twin-Linked Disintegrator Cannons seems to be a flat nerf. Should this be changed to be more similar to the Forge World rules? Or are there heretofore unmentioned Balancing Reasons for this?
• The intention was to avoid having to make another weapon entry. The other reason was that it's a lot of eggs in a small basket. Transporting 16 models and having 4 disintegrator cannons in a boat that can be destroyed with one lucky shot is kind of insane. Even thought it has Flickerfields you'll still be forced to Jink much of the time, Scythevanes makes it even more likely that you'll jink. While jinking it's you are missing out on 0.2 hits. Angry Pirate (talk) 10:06, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Lords of War

• As promised, my Lords of War suggestions:

Nightmare Barge

340 pts

	BS	FA	SA	RA	HP	Unit Type	Composition
Nightmare Barge	4	12	11	10	6	Vehicle (Skimmer, Fast, Open-Topped, Transport, Super-Heavy)	1 Nightmare Barge

Wargear:

• Nighttide Projector

A model with a Nighttide Projector reduces the Strength of all Shooting attacks fired at it from more than 15" away by 1. In addition, all friendly units within 12" of a Nighttide Projector count as being within both a Flickerfield and a Night shield, gaining a 5+ Cover save and Invulnerable save. Even other Vehicles gain these bonuses, even though not normally gaining bonuses from Night Shields and Flickerfields.

• Void Rift Beacon: Friendly Dark Eldar units in reserve may choose to deploy on the board within 6" of the Nightmare barge. If an enemy unit has one or more models within 6" of the Nightmare Barge, units entering via the Void Rift Beacon may choose to enter the board in base contact with one or more of these units. No unit counts as charging in the ensuing combat.
• Grisly Trophies
• 5 Disintegrator Cannons

Special Rules

• A World of Horrors: Any enemy model within 12" of the Nightmare Barge loses the Stubborn, Fearless and And They Shall Know No Fear special rules and suffers a -1 Penalty to their Leadership value.
• Deep Strike

Transport The Nightmare Barge may carry up to three different squads and has a total transport value of thirty models.

• Did you have a specific model in mind, AV 13/12/11 seems like a ton unless its hull has somehow been reinforced. Angry Pirate (talk) 11:30, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

• I thought that perhaps the open-topped rule and inability to jink would make up for it, but you are right. It should be lower... Lowered all armour values by 1.

• It´s mostly a question of looks. I think 12/12/11 might be better, so Ravager +1/+1/+1. Otherwise it´ll be too vulnerable to melee units and the reward for Drop Podding behind it will be enourmous.

• A World of Horrors won´t be implemented, if you don´t come up with an alternative I will or it´ll just have one special rule less, it already has a decent number of other characteristica so I´m currently leaning towards removing it entirely. Although I later removed it I did have a similar special rule on the C´tan Shard of the Nightbringer, but you have to think of the implications. How can a vehicle generate fear in robots? Angry Pirate (talk) 13:58, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

Ark of Eternal Suffering

320 pts

	BS	FA	SA	RA	HP	Unit Type	Composition
Ark of Eternal Suffering	4	12	11	10	6	Vehicle (Skimmer, Open-Topped, Transport, Super-Heavy)	1 Ark of Eternal Suffering

Wargear

• Torture Display: Any model with the Power from Pain or Agony Unleashed special rule within 12" of the Ark of Eternal Suffering treats the current turn number as being 2 higher than usual.
• Flickerfield
• 3 Dark Lances
• 5 Liquifier Guns

Special Rules

• A Harvest of Souls: Whenever a model is destroyed within 12" of the Ark of Eternal Suffering, place a "Suffering" counter by the Ark. If the Ark has one or more "Suffering" counters, it may expend as many as it wishes during the Shooting Phase to do as many of it wishes of the following:

- 4 Suffering Counters: Target friendly unit within 12" may re-roll failed Feel No Pain rolls.
- 5 Suffering Counters: Target unit within 12" may run and charge in the same turn.
- 6 Suffering Counters: Target friendly unit within 12" may re-roll failed to Wound rolls in close combat.
- 10 Suffering Counters: All friendly units within 12" gain +1 Strength and +1 Toughness.
- 16 Suffering Counters: All enemy units within 12" gain -1 Strength and -1 Toughness.
- 40 Suffering Counters: All Enemy units within 12" are automatically Pinned.

• Deep Strike

Transport Capacity The Ark of Eternal Suffering may carry up to 30 models divided in up to 3 different squads.

• The Harvest of Souls special rule is near, but I don't think we should keep the 40 Suffering Counters token. It trods on the toes of the Tyrants Throne and it seems way to expensive.

I would suggest an option to buy Weapons Storage for, say, 20 points.

I imagine models for this vehicle to be roughly Tantalus sized. Perhaps with platforming connecting the two hulls? Regardless, Deep-Striking something of this mass would be nightmarish for the risk of mishaps. An HQ could be used to bring a Webway Portal, but with the 30 models, 3 units limit, you run into problems with unit sizes and what you can and can't take. So I think the option to bring a Webway Portal as a part of this would be vital. Perhaps for 10 points rather than the 5 points smaller vehicles pay?

Ikol (talk) 04:19, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Tyrant's Throne

320 pts

	BS	FA	SA	RA	HP	Unit Type	Composition
Ark of Eternal Suffering	4	12	11	10	6	Vehicle (Skimmer, Open-Topped, Transport, Super-Heavy)	1 Ark of Eternal Suffering

Wargear

• 5 Disintegrator Cannons
• 3 Blasters
• Soulrender Field: Any enemy unit within 12" of the Tyrant's Throne wishing to move, must take a Strength test or be automatically pinned. The unit is pinned, despite any special rules which may prevent the pinning to take effect e.g. Fearless.

• Are we talking old style 18" S8 AP2 Lance Blasters, or 12" SD AP3 Darklight Blasters? Ikol (talk) 04:03, 22 March 2017 (UTC)