Talk:Codex - Knights Inductor

This is currently a collaboration work since most of the solid groundwork has been laid by me. New units, ideas and drastic changes should be put in the discussion page FIRST before being added to the codex. Remoon101 (talk) 18:58, 2 May 2015 (UTC). Other primary authors and editors include Mirmidion43 (talk) and Evilexecutive (talk). Comments and emails are welcome.

Note: Due to recent misunderstandings as well as just general confusion, please signature your edits at all times so that other people can keep track of conversations and discussions properly. To do so, just put an initial, or use the four tilde signature system built into the wiki. Thank you for doing so! Remoon101 (talk) 01:50, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Link to rules discussion archive: Talk:Codex - Knights Inductor/Archive

8th Edition Update and Goals

Hello everybody, after a long hiatus and way too much time spent playing vanilla World of Warcraft (an awesome experience, and fuck the pvp grind) I'm starting to get the Warhammer 40k itch real bad after reading up on all the new fluff and shit. I have no idea about balancing currently in this edition and am still not solid on the rules as they currently stand but I'm willing to learn!

Some overarching goals for this codex update that I have personally and would like to collaborate on with any other editors still around here:

• Massive wargear reduction. I still think Knights Inductor should have kick-ass and unique wargear, but we need to clean out the closet a bit with the options upon options. Also single-use stuff while neat is definitely clogging up things quite a bit. A short example would be the unique bolt ammo, should just shave it down to one type amongst other things.
• Rules simplification. Considering I have no idea yet about what the shit about tags and such and the removal of USR's but even before 8th hit I knew that Codex: Knights Inductor was a bit bloated. The fact that everything can split fire removes a big one, but also giving back Knights Inductor their feel of Suppression, Stealth and Silence with their own unique rules will be a bit of a challenge.
• The usual overhaul shenanigans, like updates, fluff advances and the tons and tons of balancing.
• I would also like to note that with the general Imperium making advances in tech in a way that would make the Workshop Mechanicus proud, it's fair to say that the Knights Inductor (who theoretically were at least a half-gen to gen ahead in tech) should step their game up too. Not as nearly as far as 1st generation Knights Inductor (standard marine with jet pack, FnP, grav-grenades, etc.) but a half-step further. The Innovatus will definitely be testing even more blingey inventions, etc.
• And again I would like to reemphasize Codex: Knights Inductor as a force that tries to reduce enemy killing capacity by suppression and hamstringing. In the past this made Knights Inductor obscenely effective against lower Ld infantry and struggling against mechanized forces, I would hope that we can balance this difference out a bit while keeping this particular feel of "we don't want to hurt you, but in times like these we'll definitely make sure you don't hurt us" Remoon101 (talk) 01:59, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

It should be pretty simple, as nearly every single unit in the KI codex should share more or less the same tags. I've already set up the baseline that certain units have Empyrean Anathema and some don't, and anyone with access to Empyrean Anathema has their choice of power picks on Null Field and Cryomancy. But it has no current interactions with other units, and hasn't been well defined how it should interact with units in the psychic phase. So first thing we should do is decide how it needs to interact with other psykers. --Evilexecutive

You probably weren't around for the tail-end of 7th edition, but I had Cryomancy setup as kind of more of a 'support' role for Silencers rather than a pure role for anti-psykers. With a focus around the idea of creating entropy around them. It's up to you if we want to keep the concept. My idea so far is to have them either specialize into being a pure anti-psyker, or specialize into entropy. --Evilexecutive

On another note, the plot of 40k has advanced, and we need to talk more about how the KI have fared during the events of Dark Imperium.

Couple other choices too. Most factions have access to only a single extra Psychic table in 8th edition, with 6 whole powers. We currently have 2 tables with 3 powers each.

• We could continue to have two tables with 3 powers and have a sort of specialization system in place
• Revert it to one table with 6 powers
• Or revert further back to late 7th and setup two whole tables with 6 powers each. This would also bring back the cryomancy's relationship between Solidarity and Heat Death powers.

No, I remember your addition of Cryomancy well and thought it was an interesting addition and a relatively plausible one if you took Silencers as really being the true opposites of Chaos. I never got a chance to test it myself however.

Silencers should still provide unit-to-unit immunity within a short range, with their powers being further extension of that. I saw the Null Zone Librarius power and it should be similar to that but in-built into the cost without being a power if possible. If I had to choose between Cryomancy and Null Powers I would take the latter, however, we should definitely make an effort to make Null Powers more useful in general and it could definitely take pointers from the old Cryomancy table without getting too far into "ice" powers. Of course Silencers are our Psychic Phase mainstay and they obviously still can't roll on other tables so I wouldn't think it'd be implausible to have two tables of our own. I would like to aim to have powers be more generally useful, but the previous setup of Null = Anti-psyker and Cryo = General support wasn't bad at all.

I also think we should put Silencer perils on par with Psychic powers for once. This is doable since they removed the table and you could say instead of Mortal Wounds it causes D6 models to flee in a similar fashion (removed from play but in a different way).

One more note on the psychic stuff is that I've been considering just taking out the human Librarians except for the named Zecherias. Partially to remove bloat and enhance the Black Templar-esque "we really can't afford to have psykers around us too much". If we go ahead with this, the two unique tables will probably be needed since we'd be losing access to general Psyker powers in general. Also, key-note we should probably look into a Smite look-alike Primaris since that's a psyker mainstay and easily doable for Silencers as well. Remoon101 (talk) 16:03, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

Knights Inductor Fluff in 8th

So some basic ideas I've been punting around the instant I heard all the major changes to the Imperium and such in 8th:

• Massive drain of Nulls from the Aprior star system. With all the shenanigans involved, the Inquisition is going to strip as many Silencers and related resources from the Knights Inductor to help combat the ugly messes across the galaxy. In the codex this will mean that we lose our Null Paladins.
• At the same time, it turns out that the materials being mined to make Null weapons were actually from Pylon-esque structures/nodes that helped to keep the Aprior sector area free from Chaos influence. Remember those Warp storms that initially separated that area? Those were actually supposed to turn into a massive Warp Rift but were kept at bay because of these structures. With the KI unintentionally damaging and harvesting these, plus the strengthening of Chaos across the galactic plane, this causes Warp Incursions to spawn on multiple planets. This happens not long after the Inquisition just took the majority of Silencers out of the system...
• With the innovations from the Admech becoming canon, and from a very high-position individual no less, this allows the Knights Inductor some breathing room and lessened tensions with the Admech and related factions. This doesn't mean that they'll like it any better necessarily, but they'll probably find it more palatable to accept the tech the KI develops and uses in their battles against the enemies of the Imperium. On a side note, Maestro Gajet would probably be fan-boying over Cawl's work and would love to meet and exchange binary in person. Again, I'm super-loving this development in GW canon, as it basically legitimizes Knight Inductor's take on innovation and basically confirms it's a natural evolution to undergo in particularly desperate times. Sure they don't have the standing of Cawl nor ultra-secrecy but they did have the extreme isolation and distance needed to avoid total persecution.
• Knights Inductor get a chance to upgrade from Inquisitorial Amnesty/Probation to a fully-cleared Chapter found upright in the Emperor. This comes at the cost of the massive Chaos Nullification force being sent out, a Crusade or two being launched from the Aprior system to high-conflict areas, and their deeds not being recorded in official Imperium records. "We will give you the chance to have us overlook your past sins... but do not expect honor nor glory for your deeds, even in death. All shall go to the Emperor, who redeems you of your heresies"
• Possible Null Knight subplot as they are found to have infiltrated Aprior in a way unexpected by KI leadership and attack their extremely important gene-seed caches, possibly leading to degredation/corruption/loss or weakening of null factor. This is a very iffy one, don't think too hard about it.
• In general, in the Aprior system lots of Knights are being called into action and taken out of system. In the system itself however, things are stretched a bit thin with renewed Chaos threats and other possible enemies (Tyranids sending a splinter to eliminate the anti-Synapse threat, Necrons being Necrons activated by the anti-Warp protocols, Orks not so much, Aeldari being weird as usual). In these desperate times while the Knights Inductor aren't completely safe from hostile Imperial elements, they're definitely not going to be in active conflict as everyone focuses on the greater Chaos threat. Remoon101 (talk) 16:16, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

Special Rules

• Tactical Fire-teams: Back in probably and functioning the same as Combat Squads. Also we could take this opportunity to change squad sizes to standard to make things easier on everyone. In this age of simplification I'm not entirely against this.
• Indomitable Spirit: Not sure how this is going to work in 8E. ATSKNF got considerably nerfed to begin with. Also not sure if I want to keep the anti-psyker stuff in with the rank and file.
• Suppression Tactics: With Pinning definitely taken out of the window and my desire to somewhat rebalance this rule here is my first take on it. Applies to KI units within 1" of cover. If a unit firing with 5 models or more at the same target gets a 6 on its to hit roll it lays down a Suppression Token, which can stack and last until their next Shooting phase.

1 - Reduces enemy's to-hit rolls by 1

2 - Reduces enemy's Movement by 2"

3+ - Reduces enemy's Leadership by 1 and increases for every token above 3

The above is a very rough start on the army-wide rules for Knights Inductor. If we keep the spirit of Indomitable Spirit it may very well be just a Warp-resistance mechanic with no morale buffing component. In any case, any morale buffing component has to be weaker than ATSKNF to represent the lack of hypnotherapy.

For the Suppression Tactics, my idea is that all of the KI are equipped with silenced servos, hallucinogenic/stun/flash bolts and silencers all out the wazoo as a standard level of equipment. This wouldn't be shown in Wargear but as this special rule in tandem with their own skill. Sort of like Negative Markerlights, except instead of buffing your shooting it debuffs the enemy's. Comparing to the old Suppression Tactics, this more "reliably" debuffs enemy units, but it won't be as debilitating as a failed Pinning Check, nor will it buff BS since there's no GtG mechanic with Fearless immunity unless I haven't spotted it yet (which is likely, since I'm still getting used to the new rules).

The 6's to hit means that a small group of snipers or MSU's trying to debuff the entire enemy army won't be entirely successful, and a larger group of 10 or large numbers of shots will almost guarantee a Token. And yes, I just remembered that there's Split Fire for everyone, probably need to add in a stipulation of 3-5 models or more firing to get the effect.

The actual debuffs themselves are up for change certainly, as they were just things I came up with little regard to how powerful or not they may be. I do want to keep in stacking debuffs in some form, so you have the option of really locking down an enemy unit that's way ahead of the others, sacrificing debuffs on the rest of his army to suppress a troublesome assault at your front.

Some notes about this particular dynamic rule:

• This will interact with Stratagems in some form consuming Tokens, see below
• This will present a tactical choice of shooting to kill versus shooting to suppress, it might be the same, but maybe something that you can't kill easily you might want to just stack a token or two on to limit the trouble it does
• MSU versus bigger squads, it encourages the former, but how does that fit in with your army build and battle plan?
• There's the possibility of allowing weapons to mark enemy units with Suppression Tokens instead of having separate rules as well (ex: Cerberus Launcher, stun grenades)

Remoon101 (talk) 14:41, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Silencers and Powers

I don't have many thoughts on this part yet since I'm not entirely familiar with the Psychic Phase yet, but I'll jot down any thoughts I do have

• Just reiterating that baking in the Null Aura effect (-Ld to everyone) as a special ability rather than as a power would give a bit more room for us to include another power
• I feel like a good power would be a double/triple model fleeing power/ability. For every point a Morale check is failed the number of models would be 2, 3 or D3.

Remoon101 (talk) 14:54, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Updated Wargear and Weaponry

Bolt Weapons - Current boltguns used by the Knights Inductor all use mass-produced penetrative Kraken rounds with improved propellant, machine spirit based telemetry systems and disruptive sonic cartridges. Other specialized ammo types have been phased out due to complications or due to unnecessary redundancy.

Name	Range	Type	S	AP	D
Boltgun	30"	Rapid Fire 1	4	-1	1
Boltpistol	18"	Pistol 1	4	-1	1

• • Do note, that this is making KI bolt guns/pistols strictly better. I dunno what they are doing with AP generally.
    • Now has actually read some of the SM index. Bolt rifles now exist, and have that exact stat-line. They could just be standard issue making KI more expensive.

Graviton Grenades - Still probably will be experimental equipment but with a more powerful effect. Will deal a solid amount of damage (equal to a grav-gun) and places a permanent slow-zone on the battlefield. Units in it or moving through it half the distance of all moves.

Macharius Stratagems Codex - Oh this is an easy one. It grants bonus CP. Depends on whether it'll only grant 1 CP for a modest price or D3 for a more expensive version.

MkII Damocles Power Armor - Current generation power armor for Knights Inductor, as extensively tested with previous Trooper armor and Innovatus squads. Reduces Movement by 1" but grants ability to fire Assault/Heavy weapons with no penalties.

Chopping Block

• Shock weapons = out
• Seismic Charge = possibly on its way out
• Astartes Riot Shield = on its way out
• Poison boltguns/flamers = out, unless there is an Astartes equivalent
• Electro-shackles = either out, or turned into another piece of wargear that doesn't have a One-use only stipulation or complicated mechanics. Perhaps wargear that forces a -WS debuff when in combat with another Character
• Specialized bolt ammo = out
• LAM's, Visors = out
• Tracer bolts = possibly out
• Pulse clamp = out, if it's not changed somehow to be simpler. Considering the fact that all have Toughness and W now, it wouldn't be too hard to say it does D3 W to everything each turn.

Possible Stratagems (I don't know how many a codex can have)

Continuing my philosophy of turning wargear bloat into special rules, I want to move a few old strategic wargear options into here. As always, first and foremost Stratagems should definitely follow the general "flavor" of the army when possible. I also want to play around with a dynamic of consuming Suppression Tokens in order to keep CP costs down when possible by making there be conditions in order for a certain Stratagem to be used.

• Signature Projector - 3 CP: In any phase you may remove a unit with the KI tag from the table and re-deploy them anywhere on the table 9" away from enemy units. The unit must not be currently locked in close combat.
• Psi-Suppressor Pylon - ?????:
• Disruptor Array - ?????:
• Sniper Protocols - 1 CP: Choose a marked enemy unit. Any infantry KI unit firing at the marked unit may consume a Suppression token in order to boost their bolt weapons by 6", allocate Wounds on a 6 to-hit and gain -3 AP on a to-wound roll of 6. However each model may only fire one shot.
• Assassination Protocols - 2 CP: Choose an enemy Character that is currently marked. Any infantry KI unit may consume a Suppression token in order to directly target the Character regardless of position and whether they're locked in combat or not.
• Annihilation Protocols - 3 CP: Choose a marked enemy unit. Any infantry KI unit may consume any amount of Suppression tokens to force an early Morale check with -1 Ld per token consumed (minimum one Token to one Shooting attack in order to force a Morale check).

New Units (and out with the old)

• Silencer Multis- Silencer Minoris have shown instability due to the spiritual trauma of having their souls forcibly inverted, making creating them and training them to be an increasingly arduous affair. However those Knights consistently exposed to Warp-inert materials and energies have found their own resistance increasing in turn.
  • If this idea doesn't pan out the way I think it will (specialized Veterans with Null equipment/rules) I'll probably put the Minoris back in. Lemme know your thoughts
• Innovatus Squads- Now that Damocles armor is being moved to standard I'm thinking they should be testing newer tech.
• Aspirant Teams- Old Aspirant squad and Scout squad mixed together. You can upgrade Aspirants into Scouts. No las-weapons though. Both can purchase Orbital Insertion.
  • given that the new hot shot las guns have lost gets hot, I would suggest going back to the old model of the guard being sudo-stromtroopers. Cheap human squad with a 5+ or 4+, deep strike, and hot shot lasguns. New DS rules makes them incredibly sexy.--Bobthe6th (talk) 19:26, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
• Predator Vaeris- Becomes the standard mainline Knight Inductor tank, tougher, more accurate and more expensive than the standard Predator with the capacity to mount experimental wargear.
  • Might be worth making this just an upgrade option for the predetor rather then a seperate unit. --199.167.198.33 03:45, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Jet Troopers- IDK what GW is doing with jet this edition, but this is a unit I always wanted to replace the jump marines in KI with. Scouts with jet packs that get a jet move. Honestly might be a good upgrade for the innovatus squads, except it pushes their high price point higher. --199.167.198.33 16:34, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Hot take after reading a bunch of 8e stuff.

8e seems to be moving away from a small set of units that can be heavily customized to a larger set of units that have a smaller amount of customization. Like rather then having a dreadnought be one unit that can upgrade five ways, there are five dreadnoughts units with different prefixes.

Now if people making this codex want to keep the 7e system of less units that can do several things, that is cool. It will just make the codex even weirder looking as people settle into the new edition. I think the change has a lot to do with powerlevels, which assume people are taking the most gear possible. With lots of options that gets weird.

What would following this shift look like? Stuff like silent hands being a distinct unit from sternguard, or even replacing sternguard. Breaking up the dreadnuaght into several subtypes. That sort of stuff.--Bobthe6th (talk) 19:01, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

• • Has now read more 8e. Hmm... so here is the thing. Before just adding some guard into a SM chapter was fine, they were basically cultists. Now MSU is strong, and guard are really really good. Cheap things let you take more CMP, which lets you do good things. Also incredibly easy to slide in. I was thinking, given regiments are now more codified... we could pull out the guard and add a Inductor Auxilia regiment+relic+orders+strategem. Possibly like the Vostroyan(+6" range). --Bobthe6th (talk) 11:24, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Bob writes up some unit ideas

WarGear

Trooper Armor

unit loses 2" move(4" if FLY), but does not suffer the -1 to hit rolls for moving and firing heavy weapons.

Jet Pack

Unit gains FLY. During the shooting phase, the unit may move up to its move.

Weapons

Weapon	Range	Type	S	AP	D	Abilities	Points?
AAMR	36"	Heavy 1	6	-3	2?	Can target a CHARICTER even if they are not the closest enemy unit. On 6+ to wound it inflicts a mortal wound in addition to normal damage	20?
GMass Driver	30"	Heavy 1	7	-4	2	Always wounds VEHICHLES or MONSTERS on a 2+	20-25?
GAC	90"	Heavy 1	10	-4	2	Deal 1 mortal wound to the any unit hit with this weapon.	40?

Special issue boltguns work for the stalker pattern, and if in doubt you can just give out more sniper rifles because they are sexy. Twinlinked sniper rifles?

Troops

Guard Aspirants 50pts/3 Power Points

Name	M	WS	BS	S	T	W	A	Ld	Sv
Trooper	6"	4+	3+	3	3	1	1	6	4+	Sargent	6"	3+	3+	3	3	1	2	7	4+

Unit Composition: 1 Sargent and 5 Troopers

Wargear: Hot-shot lasgun(Trooper only), Hot-shot laspistol(Sargent only), Chain Sword(Sargent only), Frag & Krak Grenades

Faction Keywords: IMPERIUM, [Chapter(Knights Inductor)?]

Keywords:Infantry, Scout, Scout Squad

Abilities:

• Faction Deepstrike: During deployment you can set up this unit in a high altitude transport instead of placing it on the battlefield. At the end of any of your movement phases, you can set this unit up anywhere on the battlefield more then 9" away from any enemy models.
• Tactical Fireteams

Options:

• May take up to 6 additional troopers at 10pts each.(or +6 troopers for +3 Power Points).
• The entire unit may take items from the Squad issued Wargear list.
• For every three models in the unit, 1 trooper may take an item from the Special Weapons list.
• Sargent may take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, and/or Special issue wargear lists.
• Sargent may trade his Hot-shot las-pistol for a Hot-shot lasgun.
• The unit can trade Faction Deepstrike for Faction infiltrate at +2points/model ? would need playtesting.

Fast Attack

Skirmishers 90pts/5 Power Points

Name	M	WS	BS	S	T	W	A	Ld	Sv
Skirmisher	6"	3+	3+	3	3	1	1	7	4+	Sargent	6"	3+	3+	3	3	1	2	8	4+

Unit Composition: 1 Sargent and 5 Skirmishers

Wargear: Bolt gun, Bolt Pistol, frag&krak grenades, and Jet Pack.

Faction Keywords: IMPERIUM, Aduptus Astartes, Chapter(Knights Inductor)

Keywords:Infantry, Scout, Skirmisher Squad, Fly, Jet Pack.

Abilities:

• Faction Deepstrike: During deployment you can set up this unit in a high altitude transport instead of placing it on the battlefield. At the end of any of your movement phases, you can set this unit up anywhere on the battlefield more then 9" away from any enemy models.
• Tactical Fireteams

Options:

• May take up to 6 additional Skirmishers at 15pts each.(or +6 Skirmishers for +4 Power Points).
• The entire unit may take items from the Squad issued Wargear list.
• For every three models in the unit, 1 Skirmisher may take an item from the Special Weapons list.
• Sargent may take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, and/or Special issue wargear lists.

JUST WHAT ARE YOU DOING?

Just a heads up. These are NOT Reasonable Marines. These are the most Mary Sue marines who get shiny super-awesome-magitech wargear nobody else has access to in the Imperium. These guys are more Grey Knight than Grey Knights, except their major focus is "tech" than psychics except their psychics are kinda unique snowflake too! In any case, Ward is strong in them.

YES. Even AFTER the reboot and making them less Mary Sue "Allied with Tyranids" bullshit in the previous incarnation, this new Knights Inductor are still pretty Mary Sue. They are better at reverse-engineering than AdMech are, and they reverse engineered warp and made refractor shields boosted enough to protect vehicles, developed Cryomancy, developed Nanotech, made their own pattern of power armor... really? It seems more like they are on par with AdMech in some cases! This isn't Reasonable Marines, this feels more like the marines who are based on a very convenient forward-thinking Forgeworld. -- some anon.

Reasonable Marines have been about marines actually playing down the rule of cool every other faction is so crazy about, and coming up with simple fixes to tactically stupid protocols. NOT adding super-high tech Mary Sue gear someone just sucks out of their thumb to conveniently patch over existing tactical failings, or in this case, go further and straight up make them into some human version of Tau.

Camo Netting and focus on ranged warfare feels like proper things that Reasonable Marines would have. Perhaps recruiting normal humans for units that make use of their strength of numbers and expendability is also a reasonable thing to do, so the Chapter is less prone to being undermanned and go into a century or two of hiatus just to recoup their numbers like all those other Chapters go through after a major campaign. Lugft Huron used to design his forces to work very closely with humans, and he was pretty smart as Marines tend to go. It isn't far-fetched to have reasonable marines to keep Astartes hubris in check and realize regular humans have their strengths too.

Also if chainswords have same stats as a Marine combat knife, why go for a loud motor-powered weapon when you can do the same thing with a stick of sharp metal that has less moving parts to go awry, needs less maintenance, and can be stealthier?

All in all, the Knights Inductor as they are now are just a pumped up version of Grey Knights. But if that is what they are now meant to be, so be it.

>You know this page has been dead for multiple years, right?

First of all, this is a dead page. Secondly people already acknowledged this on the discussion of their proper page. You're a few years late. -- Triacom (talk) 19:17, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

>What, just 2 years ago? Pffft. Not as long as other pages I've seen that get more action after a long hiatus. Yeah, I know the last post was from 2018. I already supposed it died a couple of months after that.

And I'm not only looking to continue a living discussion of the merits of Knights Inductor/Reasonable Marines. Just had to get this out there, that I'm only making a mark.

That and I've seen "dead" content get resurrected on-going activity just from a random comment someone makes a note of it years into the grave. Whether that happens or not, remains to be seen. -- EcceHomo (talk) 05:51, 02 Aug 2020 (UTC)

You're not going to find anyone because anybody interested in the subject already ditched them because the Mary Sue-ness of the chapter was already pointed out in great detail. Every point you're making was already made here or on 4chan, and you're so late you're just shouting at the air. You're digging up the grave of the horse so you can beat it. -- Triacom (talk) 07:03, 3 August 2020 (UTC)