Talk:Codex - Knights Inductor/Archive

Most of this discussion was invalidated by later rules revisions. It's been moved here to get it out of the way of ongoing discussion.

Recent changes for review and discussion

• Add the Astartes Anti-Materiel Rifle (aka the "heavy sniper rifle"), gave it to Scouts as an upgrade and Sternguard as a free swap option.
• Changed Silencers back to 12" -1Ld, nerfed Secundus Silencers (they don't get -2Ld anymore).
• Changed Null Rods to act identically as Force Weapons (gives you choice of which force weapon to choose as well) with the exception of using Null Charges and being easier to activate versus Psykers and Daemons. Still subject to change if I don't like it. Changed Voidstaff entry to match while still having the same anti-anti-Instant Death effect.
• Changed Electro-Shackles to a one-use melee weapon that reduces I and A by -l (to a minimum of 1) if the target fails a Strength test. Is now a standard option on all Sergeants.
• Removed damocles power armor as a standard option for Knights, planning on replacing it with an option to take a "medpack" for infantry squads granting 5+ FNP. Innovatus squads downgraded to MkI Damocles power armor from MkII.
• Changed Concussive to Blind for Stunner bolts. Planning on upping Stunner bolt cost to compensate.
• Added Kraken bolts as an upgrade to all bolt pistols, boltguns and storm bolters in a unit; +6" AP4
• Changed Stunner bolts to an upgrade to all bolt pistols, boltguns and storm bolters in a unit; +Blind AP-. Changed the description slightly.
• Adjusted points costs for standard Knight units by roughly 2pts down. Look at the perspectives section and let me know if you think we can go a bit lower. Empyrean Anathema is considered by me to be a little less than a point (worth close to nothing).
• Removed the gimmicky shimmer shield and added in the awesome Signature Projector infantry experimental wargear. Basically it's a realistic holo-projector that fools enemies into thinking it's a squad of Knights and is meant to be highly distracting. Locks down an 18" radius and constantly forces units to take Ld checks to do shooting/assaulting unless it's at the very durable projector.
• Reduced prices and transport capacity of mainline dedicated transports. Moved the +2 Transport capacity to the options as a possible upgrade.
• Added the Aceso, granting Feel No Pain as long as the bearer is alive for varying costs (starting at 25pts).
• Changed the Preemptive strike and Prelude to War special rules. Also changed Randi's Cunning Strategist to The Macharius Stratagems. Reduced Randi's attacks by -1 (since he is swinging his Thunder Hammer at I2).
• Changed a few titles: Master of the Deal to Magister Pactis. Master of Fleet to Master of Ordinance.

Thanks to Mezmerro, I have made the following changes:

• Added wording to Strike of Despair to affect Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerors units
• Changed Banish to a more clearer wording of the power's effect
• Locator beacons changed to only attract happy, nice, friendly guys that are deep striking
• Jump pack wording changed to be consistent with Codex: Space Marines
• Changed Zakis' Judgement Gavel so he can be affected by Initiative-affecting abilities
• Modified wording on Cunning Strategist for clarity
• Clarified the null area affect on Rachnus' Horrifying Nothingness rule
• Added the option for HQ's to take Frag grenades

Null Powers

I think null powers don't really fit well with what is known about blanks. I think some sort of general passive anti-psyker effect would work better. So keep Empyrean Anathema, but change Silencers to be more like Pariahs were, with an AoE Ld debuff for all non-KI units, or something like that. Having them as pseudo-psykers just seems wrong.--70.192.81.128 21:45, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

You're right, it was difficult enough trying to make a full mastery list but I don't think it's possible. I'll probably just leave them with the Silencer rule and give them option of Synapse Disruption, Living Runes of Warding, and a Morale/Pinning check inflicting ability. It wasn't so much that they were pseudo psykers, more like they had the ability to control their aura and manipulate it in specific ways to create different effects. But 6 powers is definitely stretching it. However they will still need Null Charge and Null Powers to use their basic powers (maybe). Remoon101 (talk) 02:35, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps something like a 12" aura with -2 Ld to non KI units within 12", with a further -2 Ld for psykers, disrupt Synapse, and fucks with daemons somehow. Also it and its unit are immune to psychic powers and cause beam psychic shooting attacks to end early if they'd be hit by them. It'd be expensive, maybe with different levels providing greater or last bonuses and/or radii. --70.192.85.84 14:51, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Ongoing rules questions

As ever, your work is fascinating. I gave this codex a read-through before the new Space Marine codex was released, and now the rewrites have nullified half of what I had to say and I'm reading it again. Rather than spam a book-length commentary on the whole thing at once, I shall, acting in my capacity as a Tactical Genius, give it another careful review and do questions/commentary one at a time as I go along. Tactical Genius (talk) 21:47, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

FIRST QUESTION! As of the current reading, The Tactical Synchronization rule reads:

• Tactical Synchronization- With a 24 man squad structure, a squad can break down into 2, 3, or even 4 separate fire teams that can support each seamlessly. Units with this rule of the same type may support each other if within 6". If one fire team gets assaulted, another unit of the same type may choose to either: fire Overwatch at the enemy unit OR may charge as well, causing both charging units to have a Disordered Charge (with the enemy unit counting as assaulting multiple units). The assaulting enemy unit may not fire Overwatch at the supporting unit. A unit with this rule of a differing type can only support by firing Overwatch at the charging unit.

Up until the last sentence I'd assumed this was their analogue to the Combat Squads rule and everything in it applied only to the "combat squads" (fire teams) from the same overall squad. But the last sentence implies that units with the rule of different types can support each other. Does this actually mean that, say, a fire team of Suppressors could fire Overwatch at a unit assaulting a nearby fire team of Tactical Marines even though they're not from the same squad? Tactical Genius (talk) 21:47, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Second question: What are the stats for the "heavy mortar" that's the default weapon for Mobilius Artillery, and/or where may they be found? I don't recognize the name as a standard Codex weapon unless you mean the Griffon heavy mortars from the Imperial Guard. Tactical Genius (talk) 21:57, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

AH yes! The Tactical Synchronization rule is a little poorly written right now and I will be fixing that! There is no combat squads or fire teams in the Knights Inductor codex, simply because their squads can number up to 24 models, but each model (being loaded with awesome tech) is super expensive. So there is no real incentive to buy more models just to split them up. I made it so that squads with this rule can support each other via Overwatch like Tau, but also have the ability to counter-charge if they're the same type of unit. My reasoning behind this is that if you bought two 6man squads of Tactical Knights, they would really be part of a greater 24man unit and have perfect tactical synchronization with each other. Hence why they can also support by charging as well.

So yes, any unit with this rule can Overwatch fire support another unit. But only units of the same type can counter-charge. As for the heavy mortar, I have not yet written the stats for that, as I'm re-working the codex going top to bottom, so I won't be there yet. I appreciate your comments and how you'll give more feedback on the rest of the codex too! Remoon101 (talk) 01:43, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Ah. So if I were to buy a 12 member squad (I noticed you cut the option to buy up to 24 in most squad types bar Suppressor, though under the previous iteration I'd totally do it in Apocalypse), I couldn't combat squad them into two squads of 6 using the same FO slot? Interesting, though it cuts down on a lot of the deployment flexibility of Codex-compliant Marines. Tactical Genius (talk) 01:15, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Third question: From Darkness Comes Light. Do you get to do that once per each unit with the rule? Because that could add up to killing an awful lot of your opponent's army pre-game, since basically every infantry unit has it listed. Tactical Genius (talk) 01:15, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

• I'm considering putting in a provision for Combat Squads, and possibly putting back in 24man squad options (no free Sergeants however). Of course going that high is completely optional. 12man is optimal if you want to unlock as many wargear options without going insanely high. I might take out the Overwatch support bit from Tactical Synchronization and just leave the assault support in (since that's pretty powerful as is, without ripping off the Tau's version), and have it so it can be between any unit with Tactical Sync.

From Darkness Comes Light is just an army rule, not a unit rule. However when you put it that way, I might just make it that. I'll give it to units like Scouts and up their cost a bit for it.

From Darkness Comes Light is on a pretty wide variety of units still, which I suppose is fine considering how expensive they are and that it's not on any Troops choices (limiting the number of times it shows up), but Mobilius Artillery? I mean, I infer the rule is supposed to represent units going around sabotaging things before engaging, but the artillery must deep strike according to its rules, which says to me they actually aren't on the ground to do any sabotaging. Tactical Genius (talk) 02:20, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

• I really want to scrap the rule, to be honest. But I'm trying to find a way besides adding new technology to represent the KI style of a swift, stealthy mercy-killing blow kind of warfare. I haven't edited all the unit entries yet, Mobilius Artillery included. I'm also allowing said artillery to fire the turn it deep strikes albeit counting as indirect fire. I intend From Darkness Comes Light to be put on Captains, and maybe Scouts if I up their cost a bit. Remoon101 (talk) 13:43, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

In all honesty, it strikes me as the sort of thing to put on a special character. No one blinks at that, but if you put it on Scouts and someone builds a Scout list and his opponent goes "Your scouts do WHAT?" without considering the extra points... yeah. Or put it on a more expensive/non-Troops unit, like the Cluster Mines rule that Scout Bikers had in the 5th edition Marines codex. (I haven't read the 6e one yet.) Though it's worth noting that this sort of thing was an Apocalypse strategic asset in the old edition (Surgical Raids), so GW's opinion (flawed as it may be) on what that sort of ability is worth and where it's appropriate might be worth taking into consideration. Tactical Genius (talk) 21:52, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

It should probably be only on HQs, maybe only special characters, because otherwise it gets really overpowered quickly. Glancing hits means you could kill a Spartan Assault Tank if you have three Assault Squads and 2 HQs right now - before the game starts. An alternative could be to have it so that a given unit can only be hit once - so you have to spread out the hits across your opponent's army. --Bjorn (talk) 15:57, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

• Anything without an initial points value next to its name (ex: Tactical Squad - 125pts) I have not touched or edited yet from its previous version. Remoon101 (talk) 18:29, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Fourth question: What happens if your Warlord is a Silencer and he rolls 5 on the Warlord Traits table? By current RAW, he then could not use his Silencer powers. In a similar RAW clarity vein, currently the Captain can take wargear if in power armor and different wargear if in Terminator armor, but no wargear if in artificer armor. Tactical Genius (talk) 20:20, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

• Thanks to you pointing that out, it has been fixed to clear those problems in RAW up Remoon101 (talk) 15:52, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

The Synapse blocking power is currently worded vaguely and taken literally raises headache questions, as RAW it would affect Synapse creatures themselves. I'm guessing that isn't even the intent in the first place, but if it is intended to work that way that raises a bunch of other questions not currently answered: do Synapse creatures that are currently blocked still provide Synapse to things out of reach of the Silencer? Do blocked Synapse creatures roll Instinctive Behavior or do they behave more like a Lictor or similar out of Synapse reach? Do Synapse creatures still count as Synapse creatures when blocked for purposes such as Tyranid fallback behavior? If so, where does a Synapse creature fall back to? Itself? The closest other Synapse creature? The table edge?

Either way, the power's description needs to be reworded, either to explicitly exclude Synapse creatures as being affected or clarify exactly how they are affected by it.

• Thanks for pointing that out, I have fixed the wording to only affect non-Synapse creatures. Remoon101 (talk) 18:52, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Er, the new wording consistently refers to units, which includes Independent Character models currently attached to the unit, and some Synapse creatures can attach to units. (and I think a Carnifex could attach to a Warrior squad? I'd need to double-check) As such, this wording could be read as 'your Hive Tyrant can be removed from Synapse by being attached to a Brood of Gaunts being affected by the power'. I think the only solutions are to either say any unit containing a model with the 'Synapse Creature' Special Rule is immune to the power (which addresses attached units) or declare that it forces Broods to separate if some models have the ability and others do not, which itself is probably a rules headache. In general it renders ambiguous the consequences of a mixed Brood being in range.

It also occurs to me this: does the power affect a Brood if any of its models are in reach, or only if all of them are, or if 50% or more are, or what? The current wording is ambiguous on this count too.

Additionally it doesn't clarify whether the power is an ongoing 'aura' that can move with the Silencer, affect units forced to move into afterward, etc, or only 'zaps' everything in reach when it was activated and the consequences are all that lingers. (Or does it being labelled a Malediction answer that? I haven't read Sixth Edition yet)

I didn't think of these earlier and am now annoyed at pointing out the first issue while overlooking these. Sorry. 24.43.253.238 23:53, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

216.110.194.242's Thoughts

sweetness! my thoughts, in order

RULES

I think From Darkness, Light and Infiltrate, Isolate, and Destroy are over powered in there current form. I suggest they be replaced with the rules, Maneuver Warfare and Total Warfare.

• Take note that half of From Darkness, Light and Infiltrate, Isolate, and Destroy were taken directly from an IA character named [Issodon] because I thought it was only reasonable. Points increase across the board in that case (+2pts)
  • Really? oh well never mind then,

Maneuver warfare: All units with this rule must declare if they are using it at the start of there movement phase. They may make then make a shooting attack, all rules applying, except they are treated as having moved in the last movement phase, (can only snap fire heavy weapons, can only shoot rapid fire weapons up to half range, ectra) they THEN may make a movement phase move. To summarize, they may move then shoot, as normal, or shoot THEN move. keep this in mind when I talk about tactical marines. Additionally: vehicles with this rule must declare how far they are going to move, and then are treated as having moved that far when determining how many guns they can shoot.

• I can see how this would be useful, but losing the aforementioned rules when every Knight is 20pts makes this questionable. However, I could make a special character (feel free to come up with fluff or even rules) that replaces From Darkness, Light with this. Sort of like a Chapter Tactics switching kind of deal.
  • Given just how far I go, maybe a freaken imperual armor variant list is in order :-p
    • I'm not terribly good at those I'll admit, but I'm sure we can up with something good once the base codex is done :)

Total Warfare is sort of the Opposite. Units with this rule are not nearly as mobile, but are a bastion, holding place. In a turn they don't move they have +1 cover saves,(as they dig trenches and bunker down) and may re-roll to wound rolls for shooting.

• I've considered this before, having Stealth if you didn't move the preceding movement phase. Re-roll to wounds is very powerful, combined with Macharius Stratagem a squad could get re-rolls to hit AND wound, depending on what squad it is. That would be OP
  • Doh, did not consider how it would interact with other existing rules, stupid me.
    • Don't worry, it just happened to be a coincidence. But re-rolls to wound is pretty powerful in any sense. I would use this rule except it really encourages just sitting down and sitting shooting without forcing tactical movement if required
      • That was the point of the rule, these units stay put, others advance using Maneuver warfare to get safely duck in and out of firing lanes.

24 marines in a squad is also likely over powered. Instead squads 'should number 12 by default', as before the battle they already split into 12 man fire teams, with the ablity to split further into six man teams. Additionally: for every two full squads you can (or maybe must) take a Sargent independent character from elites of that type, a sort of lite captain model that confides a benefit to his squad. So two Tactical squads of 12 unlock the ablity to take a tactical Sargent who confers to his squad split fire, for example.

• How often would you voluntarily take special characters like Telion, Antaro, or other IA special character in a normal Marine army? Now you would be forced to take them. I understand your concerns about 24men to a squad being overpowered but do some points crunching. How much will a 24men squad of 20pt Knights cost? Will it even be worth it by then? Perhaps, since you get access to an almost obscene amount of wargear, but that's even more points needing to be spent.
• 24men -may be- overpowered, but unlikely to be used in reasonable points games. Knights have access to the same wargear a regular Tactical squad has at 10men with 6 Knights. 12 Knights is already very, very, VERY expensive, but you are rewarded for going up to that number with additional unlocked wargear. Taking a character at that point would be crippling.
  • not a special charterer, more like a slight buffed normal Sargent or weakened captain model, who now that I think about it would work better as a upgrade to a normal marine, turning him into a Sargent, then a complete independent character. Additionally this guys job was to act as the 'crunch' to the 24 man squad in a world where the knights could only take 12 man squads.
    • If you've seen the Codex - Angry Marines page they have a whole bunch of upgrade characters coming as well, something like that would work here in this case. The Vanguard Veteran is an example, though you can take more than one depending on how many Incursion squads you're running
      • that is kind of what i meant, the idea was it's like a 40 point upgrade you can take as many times as you have 24 man squads, (or two fire teams from what i proposed) given that is not going in, the Sargent idea is moot.

HQ

there is no command squad. Therefore I prepossess the knights get one, but the role of the Emperor champion is replaced by a 'Emperor Assassin' model who does not have to challenge a enemy, but can direct free strikes to him by sacrificing his own attacks. It has a higher chance of kill the enemy, but in return does not take him out of the rest of the fight as if you had 'properly' challenged him.

• Of course there isn't, I haven't made one yet. And you might need to explain the 'Emperor Assassin' a little bit better. By free strikes do you mean automatic hits? Additional free hits?
  • for the record I'm throwing ideas out there, so I don't have a firm idea how the mechanic would work. As for the Assasin i meant that the Knights are more the guys to shoot a leader a half mile away with a large bore snipe rifle then challenge him to a one on one duel. decapitate the snake and all that. and if the enemy leader did get to close quaters, there more the kind to discreetly kill him off in a swirling melee then duel him. Hence the Emperor Assassin.
    • It would make sense that he would neutralize the leader without killing him though, as a valuable one-up on the enemy. Perhaps some sort of poisoned shock blades would work?
      • While I will admit i was thinking more 'requesta de pache' that is more knight themed. Say he can direct all his attacks against a enemy at the start of a fight, giving him a good chance to get the enemy out in one strike with the aforementioned blades, but if you do this then you can't challenge him properly, (unless he challenges you) and he can still use his weapons in the ensuring fight.

TROOPS

I don't think Tactical should have heavy weapons (gasp), this makes them much more mobile, turning a faction that would other wise play a bit like guard and tau, (form a gun line, blast till nothings left) into a unique faction of highly mobile squads advancing to rapid fire range and then skirting backwards as they cede ground, rapid firing the whole way into the enemy.

• If you wanted high mobility, what are you doing with the Knights? You don't have to take heavy weapons in a Tactical squad, that's a tactical choice you make as a player. Tactical squads benefit from a 30" range bolter so they don't need to dance into rapid fire range as much as other armies. You don't have to sit in once place either, that's why you have dedicated transports (which I will write in as well)
  • this idea only works if the concepts of manover warfare is taken as well. But i stand by other point of this makeing them unique,. With out the moment perks he knights are just another stand still and shoot faction along side guard, tau, dark angels, certein Elder builds, all the mechizeing does to change that the fact is that they may very likely (with the 30 inch) become the new, fish of fury. Where as before you would have to get just inside your enemy's threat zone to do most of your damage, a high risk high reward tactic.
    • All in all it depends on how you outfit the Tactical squad. If you pay the points to get 12-18-24men you can split the squad to have special weapons move up and heavy weapons hang back
      • well, were have to wait till some one bothers to play test the rules to figure out.

Suppression teams should be made that, teams. Like Imperial guard weapon teams one guy covering the others back, 2 models to a gun forming so in a four heavy weapon team, (with the 12 man squads taken from above) you have four 'bullet catchers'. I also hold that Suppresses should be moved to troops as with the above tactical suggestion they lack the heavy weapons. They should also be able to take Mortars and lack short range heavy weapons.

• Suppressors as Troops?... might not work but might. Why would you take Tactical squads at that point when you can fill up with Dev equivalents and more Heavy Support? The reason Space Marines in the whole entire galaxy don't have heavy weapon teams is because they are efficient and strong enough to lift, carry, reload, and fire a heavy weapon by themselves. I'm considering putting your 'Total Warfare' rule here by the way
  • oh nice on the rule, but with the nixing of no heavy weapons in tactical this proposal becomes redundant as they can bring there own heavy weapons with them. the planned tactic i was thinking of was suppressers hold ground, being very good at staying in place, while Tactical can easily advance and take objectives. As the specialization of tactical is a no, then the suppressors as troops falls into your problem of 'why take tactical at all?" lastly this was a counter point to the fact that blood angels, arguable the choopyest of space marines can take assault marines as troops, so logically the shootist of marines can take devastators as troops. your last point on 'strength' is not the one I'm contesting. it's focus. devastators are the youngest, least experienced full marines in a chapter. I can easily see them getting so focused on one target at range, they miss another coming up the flank, that the older one spots and guides his younger to fire upon. It also adds to another 'reasonable' thing they do, and helps link them to the Imperial guard more. Plus it was a attempted to get ride of the 'bullet catchers' a normal devastator squad almost never takes. I mean, how every does take more then five guys in a dev squad? but since I was keeping a squad of 12, and four heavy weapons that still meant four guys left
    • The Scouts for Knights Inductor go directly to the Incursion squads to complete their close combat training, sorry for not mentioning that. In the traditional Vanilla codex the newly inducted Devastators were the guys given boltguns to call out targets and take the bullets for their more experienced brothers. These Suppressors are more experienced than your typical Devastators, besides the fact that they train a lot longer they've already fought in the Incursion squads.
      • what about my second point about getting rid of the bullet catchers almost no one takes any way?. meh that's me whineing

Now this is just me, (and the fact I'm using Guardsmen in my knight inductor army)but I highly doubt the 'reasonable' marines would deploy half trained recruits as scouts. They should be complete unit of troopers in carapace armor, hell guns, bolters, shot guns or snipe rifles, just what it says infant just with out the scout option.

• This was kind of rushed, I can probably make the Apriori troopers a separate unit all armed with Trooper armor. These Scouts are near the end of their training tenure, and are getting some battlefield experience in, just like any other Scouts. They need this experience since Scouts in other Chapters are able to take to the battlefield faster. Waiting until they join Incursion squads would be... ugly
  • Really? I thought scouts moved on to the Devastator company first to 'see war at a distance', then move on to the assault once there battle proven. Additional, scouting is hard, it's not the sort of think I have rookies to do. but trained, veteran men. Guard or Scout.
    • They move to Incursion first to finish off close-combat training for the rest of their time as a Knight. Then they sort of get settled down and taught even longer about the more important aspects of Knight Inductor warfare (the long ranged one). As for the Guardsmen I was thinking of young but bloodied Aprior Guardsmen who were still eligible for becoming an Astartes and showed promise. They would serve alongside the Knights (wearing Trooper armor most likely) and under the leadership of a Sergeant who would pick out the most promising ones. The ones not chosen would get sent back with the distinction of having served with the Knights for a short time period
      • sounds good to me. That logic makes a bit more sense and I retract my objection. when ever I hear about space marine 'scouts' and there lower stats I always assume there sent off half trained compared to normal marines, but if half trained is still 'special forces' grade then I can't complain.

HEAVY SUPPORT

A new unit should be added to Heavy support to replace the Suppression teams, Annihilator teams, a squad armed with short range, (heavy flamer, Multi melta, Assault cannon) heavy weapons. Additionally: we get Obliterate teams, basically devastators armed with weapons other chapters shun, Artillery. Heavy mortars, Quad guns and Thunder fire cannons.

• Short range is not the way to go, read up on Knights Inductor combat doctrines. The mortar idea is very interesting and could very well merit a whole new unit, or perhaps an option under Suppressors. Thunder fire Artillery is a unit unto itself, as are Quad gun options.
  • Well even the knights need to advance to take a target, and these guys would be the ones pressing the breach in close urban warfare. Nothing like a heavy flamer to cook rats out of a trench, and in urban combat a Multi melta would be devastating to pop open a wall and get at the guys behind it. Additionally, the second idea was the knights are attacked, cede ground backing away and once the enemy's are in place, these guys pop out a trench, open fire, and the enemy gets hammered by counter attacking knights and there heavy close range fire power. I'm not sure what you mean by 'Thunder fire Artillery is a unit unto itself, as are Quad gun options' by mortars i mean the heavy immobile (when used by guardsmen, heh) field guns used by the siege regiments of Kreig. SO say we have a squad that can take three heavy mortars. You can then upgrade the mortars to a Heavy Quad Launcher, or a thunder fire cannon, making said cannon no longer a tech marine only option, and can be fielded in batterys.'
    • I sort of see what you mean, you basically are talking about splitting the Devastator roles into two separate but more specialized heavy support roles. The thing is, you can outfit the Suppressors and Devastators to do either roles, so the Annihilators are not really needed (plus as a side note the Knights don't really like using flamers). The mortar idea interested me because I don't think the Space Marines really have an equivalent to the IG mortar teams, and the upgrade paths you describe make sense. I am loathe to give up the Techmarine though for the Thunderfire, considering he is very durable and helps to bolster terrain. Maybe I could make him into an upgrade for the Sergeant for the team?
      • how about we alter the tech marines fluff a little? like the real world army core of engineers, there equally at home building stuff up and blowing up apart. So it make sense we would have a Techmarine attached to a heavy gun battery as he plots trajectory's and makes sure the guns are properly embraced

Vindicator should have the upgraded demolisher replaced with a normal battle cannon,or vanquisher cannons, making it like a real world casement tank destroyer. options included, any Lemen russ main gun.

• We can put multiple options in, which the retooled Demolisher cannon as the standard set-up. a 30" S10 AP2 pie plate is very delicious though. I'm not adverse to putting other guns on the Redemptor, as I'm sure the Apriori Tech Adepts aren't
  • it's is tasty, but will it give indigestion? why take a predator at all, when you can throw that kind of pie plate down range? which is half the reason I proposed bellow to remove the pred and combine with razor this tank makes it obsolete. Casement gun or not.
    • The Predator Vaeris gets better anti-armor, anti-air, and in some cases, anti-infantry guns in the form of experimental weaponry. The Redemptor is outranged despite the 6" range increase and suffers from many of the same weaknesses as the Vindicator. However it is a valuable line-breaker, it packs a greater punch despite the short range (I regularly field a Vindi in my vanilla marine lists), and fills a role that no other tanks in the Knights Inductor armory (besides the Landraider Athena) can fulfill
      • ok, but correct me if I'm wrong, you can only take one experimental weapon per army? for example you can have only one Hailer Multiple Payload Launcher is so then the Knight don't have any tank other then the Redemptor, in that case the battle cannon options would be a nice replacement, maybe throw sponsors on there as well as the Redemptor becomes the knights main battle tank. Maybe a expensive upgrade to make the cannon turret mounted?.

Predator tank should be removed and infolded with the razor back as the Knights real world mind set finds the same faults in the Predator (high sides, bad gun depression) as we do. However, but storing more ammo in the turret they can make a Razor back that can act the same as a traditional predator while keeping the rhino transport space(maybe Plus 2 so it can carry a full squad). The result is a space marine chimera that can take auto cannons, and maybe sponsors in place of the side doors. Interestingly, I do believe this sort of tank was referenced in a Imperial armor book as a lost land design, along side the Land Speeder and Land raider.

• Meh, the old Predator is kind of dead, I never had any thoughts about putting the standard marine options in. The Predator Vaeris is meant to allow a Knights player to go through all the experimental weapons options (which I will add more of) so it's going to stay. I can add in another Predator variant as you described instead, though what it sounds like is basically a souped up Razorback with magically more space for a 12man Fire team. Why take the Rhino? Why take the Razorback? By the way the Rhino is a Knights Inductor variant discussed extensively on my User talk page with Not Long Poster, featuring 12man capacity without the repair option. The problem is space, how can you make the Razorback gun better, and somehow add more space? The Chimera has the guns it has and the transport capacity because humans are smaller.
  • I can see your point, but the two issues are balance and fluff. Fluff it easy to explain, to me, if a gaurdsmen can carry a autocannon around and enough ammo for a battle then it should be child's play to stick that ammo in a larger, automated turret. So rather then having space cut into the transport room for the gun, there using a more compact system in a larger compute controlled turret. There actually doing this with a modern auto cannon, in fact called the CTI 40mm Tele-Operated turret. Additionally, the modern baddly stores ammo in the floor, of the tank. . . ya, ammo explosions can be just as nasty as you think when there full. Might not have as much endurance though, can't go as far with out resupply, but I can easily seeing them carry enough ammo for a 40k scaled fight, or maybe they would prefure laser weapons like lascannons or Multilasers due to the lack of ammo requirement, (but, that pleases HIM so i skipped all my impulses to add multilasers.) The Chimera likely does the same thing, as even though humans are smaller there are more of them which means the same problem of guys VS guns. rules wise we could make this tank more prone to explosions with all the ammo stuffed in it, and given how close this tank might be to your guys, that would be the Balance to this fire power. Now with the ammo issue solved, that leaves the problem of balance. The predator was a bad tank, but in this form you can take as many as you have squads, now is this fair? no idea, i say yes as it would defiantly be worse then a equal number of Lemen Russes, and that cost would be a problem to any guy planning to spam Predators, (which might give you a fairly fluffy Knight Inductor Armored battle group if you min maxed a bit)
    • We can put your idea into a whole other tank though I need to get finished with the other tank options first.
      • by combine with razors I meant by role and armament, but heh this is your dex, i have dibs on the variant. (which, would be mostly copy paste from this one like siege assault is to normal dex)

MOAR TANKS, (cough) though the details elude me, I think the Knights should have at least one type of tank to replace the predator I mentioned above. Maybe a Light fast tankette?

• Think one up, I'm currently adding basic unit equivalents from the standard Space Marines codex but made better by the Apriori system
  • I don't quite get that. as per tanks all we got in standard codex and preditors. Vindicators are tank destroyers/Assault guns, And land raiders are IFV's, there is no main battle tank equivalent to make a better version of. still, I would say anything really negative (just a little doubt) till I see it, (makes popcorn. .
    • If you're talking about a Leman Russ equivalent the Redemptor with a battle cannon (soon to come option) and the Plating Overhaul upgrade is basically a Leman Russ (minus the heavy bolter option and +1BS).
      • What i meant was your adding unit equivalents, so were have something that acts like vindicator, something that acts like a predator, ectra, but the marines have nothing like a proper tank that can we can design the knights to have a 'better' version of.

FAST ATTACK is looking very lean (I haven't finished it yet -___-), recommend the additional of Land speeders, and Pathfinder squads, Full power armor, camo cloaks and heavy sniper rifles. Assault marines should, still be assault but they should have better options for shooting. I suggest throwing storm bolters as a special weapon. The Assault 2 weapon would come in handy there. Vanguard should be renamed 'Storm Squads'.

• Landspeeders are in, don't worry, except with the exception of the Landspeeder Storm maybe, considering how useless that thing is already in the vanilla Marine codex. We aren't Eldar, nor Tau, what ideas have you for Pathfinder squads? Storm bolter option would actually make a lot of sense I'll definitely put that in. There are no Vanguard Veteran squads. I took them out because how limited in use they were in the Vanilla Marine codex, the fluff I gave them makes sense, and they give the benefit of Heroic Intervention to the Incursion squad itself what more could you want from a Vet?
  • . . .oh shit i'm a moron. I forgot you took them out for a second and replaced them with just one guy, heh he, (dies and hides) but that is what I sort of meant when I asked about buying Sargent models for every 24 marines, only it be more of a upgrade rather then a true add on. land speeders are good, sorry I judged a bit too fast.. as for path finders, I was thinking a elite scouting/leader assassinating unit of actual marines rather then the guardsmen scouts scouts. Like the Legion Recon squad released by forge world. in both appearance and in purpose.
    • The Silent-hand veterans would fulfill that Pathfinder role, minus the Scouts rule though. The range of their weapons would mean they don't have to Scout too close anyway.

Bikes squads should be added as well. No attack bikes, but get attack jeaps. Like the long range desert patrol, (and yes, this is shamelessly trying to retcon my choice of doing this for my bikes to be fluffy)

• I'm. Not. Done. Yet. Attack bikes are still. Attack jeeps (jeaps?) are a viable option... but what do they do? You need to be more specific, maybe even write up fluff for me to see here
  • Again, i'm sorry I judged a bit fast. I saw the dex and assumed you were done. as for the attack jeeps. . . that's a bit of two things, one me finding attack bikes to be silly, (a side car mounted heavy bolter? It's not on the center of axis! if you fired the recoil would flip your over or spin your round! and a multi melta would cook leg of the guy in front of you! power armor or not!) and second, trying to make the knights a bit more unique at there only thing, and letting my fanboyism get in the way, (Sigh) seriously i need to get that thing under control as you can tell. Fluff wise if i had to justify it I would say the knight have better thing to do with Attack bike Gyros then make attack bikes
    • Hmmm, adding a whole new fast attack option would be great, maybe a revamped Landspeeder Storm? Somehow we could make it not useless?
      • just make a flying rhino. Seriously, the knights in cannon have a better grasp on anti gravity then most imperials so they could easily upscale to carry more mass.

As the Knights lack both a Aircraft and a AA tank, I propose they both be added here. for the AA tank, maybe a Whirlwind with a AA luncher, (like the current forge world thing) or a twin linked autocannon weapon like the Hydra, (why change what works) only with interception, (and fix what does not) For aircraft. . . I got nothing.

• Stormraven or even that variant that was talked about in Return of the Reasonable Marines. Stormtalon. Thunderhawk (or whatever it's called). The Knights need to have full Flyer options here in 6th edition. The Whirlwind anti-air I was already considering, will probably put it in as a separate option from the Hurricane.
  • Sounds good boss!

ELITES

Terminators should be able to swap the power first for a second Storm bolter.

• Can't do that, since the Storm bolter costs less than a powerfist. I would have to have them armed with two Storm bolters first and then have the option of adding a powerfist. But why? Powerfists are what makes a shooty Tactical Terminator squad deadly besides the shooting and heavy weapon options they have
  • (Shrugs) just seemed like a thing the knights would do, trading close quarters power for more long range dakka.
    • Well, no, that's not the real problem. It's the Terminator package syndrome. You get Terminator armor (which costs 25pts), a powerfist (25pts, I think if not more), and a storm bolter (3pts, though it should be 4pts with the Jade bolts upgrade) all with a Sergeant equivalent Veteran (20pts base, maybe). You get all that for a measly 40pts, if I switched out the powerfist for a second storm bolter then the points juggling gets a little bit iffy.

remove the 'silent hands' form sternguard. A cool concept I admit, but given the suggestion for Pathfinder fast attack squads, that I think fits a bit better. I also think they should be renamed 'Black Op squads' to accent there higher priority stealth role, I'd also give them standard Stern-guard ammo.

• I need some clarification here, why would they (the Pathfinders) be fast attack? Why? Also the Stalker Pattern bolter is versatile all on its own, and from a longer range to. However I can see the problem from giving up specialized ammo. Perhaps Stern get special ammo (I have to take out the AP3 ammo type though, it doesn't fit fluff) with the option to upgrade to Pathfinder/Silent-Hand (BS5 -1A) with Stalker Pattern bolters.
  • The pathfinders would be fast attack because fast attack, is fast. A forward ranging scout unit sounds pretty fast to me. however they could go either fast or elite and leave that up to you (as it should be, I'm only suggesting) The silent hand part you said sounds very good, maybe all stern guard get normal bolters and special ammo, the silent hand gets the snipeing stalkers and can pick out targets. with out the heavy stealth slant that would change would change, I remove (my silly) rename idea.
    • If you need a forward ranging unit the Scouts have got your back, I don't want to rule them out in favor of another more expensive unit. I'll probably follow through with the Sternguard change once I fixed up some other stuff

Were also missing Tech marines, and given how much armor the knights have, it's a notable omission.

• I'm. Not. Done. Yet. Have you not seen the Master of the Forge? Of course I'm putting Tech Adepts in! They also unlock experimental technology in a similar matter to the MotF by the way.
  • (whinces) sir if you could reach me i would let you slap me. I'm sorry for assuming you were done, but in my defense It does not say your not done yet.''
    • I'll definitely be putting that notice on. In my counter-defensive 'the beginning of the codex' means it's just starting :P

Dreadnoughts, Again, me trying to back retcon, but dreadnoughts should have more agility and shooting ablity, with no lost melee ablity. The concept here is to think of a cross between a Avatar AMP suit and a normal dreadnought, holding the big rifle (twinlinked auto cannon, H-bolters, ectra) while still being able to punch some one's lights out or club them over the heads with the rifles.

• You would have to model your own Dreadnought then, current Dreadnought designs (the ones that the Knights have to deal with) don't allow super fast agility. Instead I was advocating Bulwark Dreadnoughts that are meant to provide cover to nearby squads, sort of a elder protecting the young but on the battlefield. I already have written up a full codex page on them for 5th edition. I'm translating it over to 6th, you can see what I mean and then comment on them
  • well never mind me then. What does it look like? I want make my Dread/warjack conversion 'codex compliant'
    • Well, the look can really be whatever you want, it's the rules that are going to be pretty different from ordinary dreadnoughts. It's our Ironclad equivalent, so you could start with the Ironclad look I guess?
      • cool i get to make the codex model, if only had a camera (crys)

(peef) that's it folks. If the ideas are taken Up (especially the tactical, suppresses and the two rules I suggested) I can write up some fluff for them and help assign who gets what rule. wow I wrote a lot. . .(passes out)dragonkingofthestars (talk) 7:26, 24 july 2013 (UTC)

• And with that I'm done giving my responses. I see where this guy is coming from and all his ideas have merits, however, the codex as it currently is embodies the ideas and fluff as written in Knights Inductor better (just read the Combat Doctrines section and you'll get the idea). He's talking about a super mobile task force that completely abandons stealth in order to overwhelm the enemy. As such I will probably make a special character based off his core ideas and might integrate his other ideas with additional discussion. Remoon101 (talk) 14:26, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
  • I would actually abandon most of my Ideas on the rework, for now. To me, the Knights have two phases to any war. First you have the Shock and awe stage, the bombing, burning, shooting and LEVELING of any and everything that stands Between them and the objective to the ground in a three week war of pure carnage that turns some one from having the largest army on the planet to the second largest police force in a city. the goal of that being to make the war, and therefore the total suffering of the people as fast as possible. once negotiations have broken down, pull no punches. If you did that would just make the war longer and more painful for both sides, and if it has to be painful for any one, make it to them. Then you have the phase where you stop breaking and start picking up the pieces. the longer term occupation as the knights either root out the last relics of enemy forces in careful assaults on the last of the enemy's redoubts, or fall into a longer term more systemic war as there assault fails to break the back of the enemy. This list is built for the second, and should be optimized for the second idea of a rebuilding peace keeping and systemic long term war. However, as a sort of Imperial armor add on, say as a Knight Inductor counter part to the Seige assault vanguard, (Shock assault Vangard?) the ideas have a lot of promise and merit on there own. but should like be saved for that. also, In the future I'll try harder to keep my inner Knight Fanboy in check. dragonkingofthestars (talk) 7:12, 25 july 2013 (UTC)
    • It' okay to let your inner fanboy flow, some of your ideas sound really good and a few I haven't even thought of before. Such as that mortar thing with the heavy support options. Yeah, I have thought about making the Knights Inductor true Reasonable Marines with completely non-lethal and harmless equipment but it made no sense considering that they rely (in that phase) heavy air support and other things that you can't really field in a game. Remoon101 (talk) 15:17, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
      • Ya, i like this versions better then that one. the knights may be peaceful(ish), but as i mentioned, pulling punches in war just makes them more painful for every one. be reasonable, be nice, but when the excrement hits the fan and the bullets start flying, then destroy them as fast as you can.dragonkingofthestars (talk) 9:43am, 26 july 2013 (UTC)

(phew) Since it was mentioned that there was an interest in a Unit armed with heavy mortars, I wrote out a rough idea for a Knight Inductor unit armed with Artlery: the Bombardment team. I think it's fluffy, But not crunchy enough. Meh this is a co op project. So i'll put it here and see if it floats. I think the guns are over cost and need to be worked.

Barrage teams

In the early years of Aprior Sector pacification the Knights had problems maintaining and rearming there equipment while still having to fight almost near consent battles against xenos, heretics who had manifested in the wake of the warp storm that locked Aprior off from the galaxy and elements of the Imperium that opposed there unification efforts. For the first few years the Knights tottered on the edge of collapse as they found themselves unable to keep there own armor and weapons functional in the face of strings of endless battles.

The Whirlwind was considered the greatest example of this problem. Whirlwind missiles have complicated guidance machines spirit that are linked to a second spirit in the air burst warhead. These were hard to replicate, hard to mass produce and hard to maintain. In normal times a chapter Whirlwinds can expect a few days of intense violence with weeks of repair between missions as the ships traverse the warp with all the parts and equipment a Techmairne needs to ready the spirit for battle. The knights found themselves having weeks of intense violence and fighting with much less time for repair with rapidly dwindling supply’s of parts.

More and more the Knights found themselves relaying on Imperial guard Artillery regiments to supplement there dwindling stocks of Whirlwind munitions. Even cut off from the Imperium, the simple 'kaboom tubes' as one Knight Captain infamously said were easier to replicated and resupply. This evolved in to a situation where if a Knight captain could not be guaranteed artillery support at the next battle, they would often carry some of the Imperial Guard field guns and crew with them from one battle to the next.

This was the start of the now infamous Knight Inductor tendency to improvise and breaking existing covenants in return for effectiveness.

Eventually the Knights started to use the field guns themselves and they found even greater benefit then the whirlwind in some cases. In exceptional rough or mountainous terrain field heavy Mortars out performed Whirlwinds in maneuverability as they could go where ever the knights could, more then one mountainous battle was been decided by a well timed barrage of high explosive, and Thunderhawks soon came to watchful for the thick plumes of smoke marking targets for there munitions.

As the Knight established a proper industrial base the need for many of there half measures decreased as the number of proper ammunition, weapons and parts increased. But even though Whirlwinds could once more be deployed in mass, many captains refused to give up the Field guns that had served them so well for so long.

This movement was lead by the Captain of the 8th company, Juhziz Townes who personally codified and wrote into the Macharius Stratagem the use and importance of the, tactics and stratagem's for artillery warfare. In honor of his contribution to the betterment of Knight Inductor tactical doctrine, his title was changed from 'the Master of Relics' to 'the Master of Ordinance', a title the captains of the 8th company, still bear with pride.

Bombardment teams often find techmarines attached to there unit where the lighting fact computing skills allow the rapid plotting of trajectory on the fly. It has been said that a field gun guided by the steady hand of a Techmarine could hit a Eldar jet bike at 100 meters. It is then often said in response to those who doubt it, that even if they missed, the jet bike would still be in the blast radius. An effect of this is that young recruits who it is believed might be able to become techmarines are often sent to the chapters Bomardment teams after there time in the Incursion squad, where he can be close over seen by the chapters Techmarines to see if he is indeed worthy and able to join there ranks. Another effect of this joint organization Bombardment teams can be armed with the, rare to other chapters, Thunder Fire cannon and rumors persist that rarer more exotic weapons can be found in there field batterys.

Name	Points	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
Knight	20	4	4	4	4	1	4	1	8	3+
Techmarine	50(?)	4	4	4	4	1	4	2	9	2+

Composition: 6 knights 1 heavy mortar.

Wargear: Artificer armor (tech marine) Servo arm (tech marine) power armor(knights) Bolt pistols Bolter Blind and Krak Grenades Options: May take up to 18 additional knights for 20 points per model.

For each six additional knights one heavy mortar may be added to the unit for 40 points

The tech marine has access to the Knight Inductor armory.

Any mortar maybe upgraded to one of the following

Heavy Quad gun+10

Thunder fire cannon+20

Charybdis Pack Howitzer +10

Pack Basilisk: Even for space mainres, full sized Basilisk can not be used in mobile warfare. But there existed a rare type of field gun with just this purpose in mind. Christened the Charybdis Pack Howitzer it was a shortened and lightened gun and carriage, composed of rarer and lighter metals designed to be airdropped and used by air born guardsmen. Though the STC had been lost long ago, no more then three of these rare field guns were found by the Knights as they salvaged old weapon depots looking for equipment. The design was quickly studied and after a brief conference on the possibly heresy, the design was reversed engineered, and put into production.

Name	Range	S	AP	type
Charybdis	80"	9	3	Ordinance, barrage, Large Blast,

Special Rules: "From Darkness, Light", And They Shall Know No Fear, Empyrean Anathema, Split Fire, Tactical Fire Teams

Techmarine Blessing of the Omnissiah – see tech marine

Bolster Defenses-See tech marine

Fire for effect: if bombardment teams have a Techmarine they may re-roll the scatter dice

dragonkingofthestars (talk) 5:20, 28 july 2013 (UTC)

I'm basically done making the basics of the codex now. Was thinking of putting in specialist teams (can take a lot of special weapons at slightly increased cost). I'll probably be moving on to one of my other ideas on my user page. Remoon101 (talk) 18:59, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

With the coming of the 6th edition Space Marines codex there may be some significant changes. The new Centurion armor coming out looks a lot like (in my mind) the Marauder armor from Knights Inductor fluff. Could make for very interesting ideas. Remoon101 (talk) 01:08, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Knight Inductor Tactical Marine For 20pts you get: -Stealth (losing the very useful Combat Tactics) -Empyrean Anathema (-1Ld to all enemy units within 12", very useful) -And They Shall Know No Fear

Armed with: -Four different kinds of specialized boltgun ammo, minus the AP3 volatile ammo, replaced with Stunner bolts -Bolt pistol -Blind and Krak Grenades (honestly you trade off a lot of benefits for Blind grenades, shouldn't cost anything)

Possibly Consider: -Replacing Krak Grenades with Haywire Grenades, standard

Really Consider: -Change teleporting device to the following, it activates every time you "lose" a last wound. Scatters 3d6" in random direction unless you roll a hit (choose direction). If it scatters into impassable terrain insta-death. Roll double 1's, instant death. Lower cost -Giving Incursion squads Heroic Intervention instead of reduced scatter -Vanguard Veteran gives only d6" scatter rule, Precision Deep Strike -Taking away JNET tactical grid from Suppressors and just giving Split Fire and Tank Hunters, which can be replaced with Skyfire for free -Giving Rhinos AV12 to front armor for +5pts

• It's too cheap. Rhinos are usualli killed by S7-S6 weapons especially wit the rise of autocannons/ion weapon in 6e, and AV 12 reduce their effectiveness A LOT

-Making Hurricanes, Predators, and Redemptors into Squadrons Remoon101 (talk) 02:14, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Codex Overhaul

Currently giving the codex a makeover and upgraded their technology by quite a bit. See the Damocles Power Armor entry. Took out Stealth since with the Damocles Power Armor it's a little redundant at this point. Gravitron grenades are improved to cause attackers to stumble when charging. Silencers have been partially redesigned. Remoon101 (talk) 21:57, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

• Remember me? the very annoying guy from. . . almost a year ago? wow. anyway, I did finish that varent army i said I was going to put together (finnaly) and the Knight Inductor Shock Assault is all ready. I say "Variant army" but it came out more like a reskin, something entirely different. Problem was, my vision of the knights was 'grittyer' then yours, more like the modern US army. Most of the really high tech stuff is on the horizon, but you can see it coming. It about as different from you codex as as the forge world Siege list is from standard codex, some similar things (luxcannons particularly) but many, many differences.the list is pretty much all ready, but I don't Know how to post it to the Wiki, Or if I even should. If i did so, we would end up with two competing Knight inductor army lists, I like that, but other people may want one singular list and you were here first sir, so home court advantage and all that. Dragonkingofthestars (talk) 2:46, 9 February 2014(UTC)

• • I noticed that you have a ton of space on your user page (i.e. all of it) maybe you could paste what you've written up so far on it there? I could link to your page from this codex saying it's a different take or version for now. I usually write out ideas or even entire codicies on my user page before giving them their own page so I think that this is reasonable. I could take a look at it and see if I reconcile it with this version or perhaps the other Reasonable Marines codex version Remoon101 (talk) 00:22, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
    • ohh, i did not know that existed, right I'll post there. thanks for the advice. EDIT: and done, phoo took three hours but the whole things been posted, though theres likely a flaw i missed somewhere that did not get translated correctly i'll double check it, but the thing is up. Dragonkingofthestars (talk)) 10:46, 9 February 2014(UTC),

To give them the new toys or not to give them the new toys?

As we all know, Codex compliant marines got a shit ton of new stuff in their new book, Grav Guns, centurions, Hunter/Stalkers, the Storm Talon and Storm Raven and of course you have forgeworld toys as well. To the point that it seems like a Minotaurs force would have more bling than a Knights Inductor Force. But should the Knights Inductor have these? Or would they be better off not having any of them? Crazy Cryptek (talk) 09:55, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

• The Knights Inductor probably have all of those or an equivalent with the exception of the Centurions. However, the Marauder armor described in Return of the Reasonable Marines sounds like it could be very similar to the Centurion armor, so I will be putting in Marauders in there. They will probably be tougher, better armed, and more expensive than Centurions somewhat. All in all, the Knights Inductor have far more advanced tools for waging than any other chapter out there bar the Grey Knights themselves. Gravity grenades, the ability to move incredible distances thanks to gravity nullifying armor, and a personal apothecary in each suit of power armor is nothing to take lightly. Not to mention the space fleet itself got revamped to an extent in the Aprior Sector article as well.

All in all the Knights will have plenty of toys to work with and thanks to me cutting out some special rules I was able to reduce the price of a Tactical marine to 20pts overall. I'm still editing the codex so you'll see what I'll put in for those aforementioned new toys. Remoon101 (talk) 13:57, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Altering Codex Knights Inductor

I know that you are trying to make them a little less mary sue, but still, try and keep them online with the original things from Return of the Reasonable Marines?

I'm just looking to preserve some things I thought good and not massively overpowered, so if things occasionally shift around a bit as you're changing, that's me.

The problem is with the original fluff especially from the Return of the Reasonable Marines. It's going to be changed so that the Knights Inductor become a bit more respectable and a lot of material is going out the window from what I know. If you look at the talk page on the Knights Inductor page a lot of the complaints are directed towards Return of the Reasonable Marines and fluff made not by the original creator of the Reasonable marines/Knights inductor.

For the Tactical Synchronization special rule I intended that to be replaced by the Stealth Stratagem (name change might be needed) because I can't give the units too many special rules. Plus Tact Sync was just a copy of the Tau special rule so I thought it'd be good to give the Knights something unique.

I'll try to keep track of whatever changes you make and come back to them later or post on the talk page for the codex.

Remoon101 (talk) 00:23, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Coming from a tau player, the overwatch buff looks impressive but isn't really all that. It's mainly fluffy without real crunch unless you build a list entirely around the rule. It's also fluffy for the knights inductor, so I don't think it would hurt, really, to have it in.

Ok, I've put it back in for now. This gives the KI Stealth Stratagem and Tactical Synchronization for leverage in terms of special rules. Adamantium Will will just be a nice bonus for now. By the way you might want to consider making an account on 1d4chan or at least time stamping your replies with the x4 tilda key. It makes these back and forth replies a little easier :) Remoon101 (talk) 01:23, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Done deal. I'm now called mirmidion43

kraken bolts should stay, you say that you are adding new toys but i am not seeing enough of a change to balance that back out and, to further the point, the kraken bolts are a core element of knights inductor fluff. They, in my opinion should not be removed

• You, along with a lot of other people, are not giving me enough time to work on adding items and wargear to compensate. Honestly, I have an interesting ammo type in mind for Tactical squads in particular besides stunner bolts that inflicts Night Fighting on the target, amongst other ideas but I'm having a hard time finding the time between work and schooling to do so.

Fluffwise, I hold that bolt shells are already very difficult to manufacture and with me tuning back the technology level of the Knights Inductor, they shouldn't be able to produce mass amounts of the more expensive Kraken bolt shells (and even less for Heavy bolter equivalents). It'd also mean a mass points cost rise for all of the units that get Kraken bolts if I keep it in (at this rate it'll go above 20pts per marine, even with the nerfs I'm planning across the board). I like the +6" range but the AP4 is negligible. If you want, we can keep it in as an optional upgrade for the units that have access to bolt weapons in general (like the way Grey knights get psybolt ammo upgrades).

I'm considering the nerfing the bolt ammo to just AP5 and keep the +6" propellant boost in, but I'm not final on this. Remoon101 (talk) 14:44, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Isn't half the point that the kraken bolts are simplified versions of the bolt warhead and are therefore easier to manufacture? I maintain that they should be standard across the board - 6" of range and +1 AP is an OK buff but only really comes into massive effect against tau FW. Against anything else though, it is pretty much a cute little upgrade.

In addition, I really think that the basic costs for marines is really too much. 20pts as opposed to 14pts for FNP 6+, a few grenades and 6" of range? That's way too far. I think that the cost should lower back down massively and the FNP rise back up to regular levels. The same can be said of the other marines - they are way to expensive for what they can do.

Also, Innovatus squads and the Tau Fire Warrior Defectees (TFWD) are fluffy. They also possessed inbuilt methods preventing them from becoming broken - Innovatus squads were too expensive to splurge on and the TFWD were only allowed 1 squad per force org chart. I really think that they should return.

I had the silencer system the way it was to represent the lower levels of silencers in a way like sanguinary priests, not purely as a HQ choice - there are enough silencers in the area that they shouldn't only be HQ. In addition, it was displaying the 3 levels of silencer as well - primaris, secundus and tertius in that order, ascending order.

Kraken bolts are -not- simplified version of the warhead (being specialized ammunition), in fact they are more expensive to make because of having an even harder piercing head and stronger propellant. I thought that the propellant is something that wouldn't be too much of a trouble to mass produce, but the core for the tip would be a lot harder to manufacture and have the resources for.

There were huge complaints about the low prices and the universal Feel No Pain (especially the universal FNP). Since I have made some big nerfs to their mainline weapons, the 5+ FNP to 6+ amongst other things I might consider lowering their cost a bit but for now they are staying at 20pts a pop until some more changes occurs to their wargear options. The biggest thing driving up their cost is the pseudo-Infiltrate that basically lets them deploy after the enemy's deployed all the time. Removing the nerfs will only make the cost skyrocket past 20pts somewhere.

Innovatus squads are fluffy, I'll agree with you on that and change them to fit with the new fluff but keep them in spirit (veteran squads that basically take the shiniest things coming from the tech marines). No super armor ultra guns blasting everyone though.

I am final on the Tau being removed. Here are my reasons: 1. If you really want Tau in your space marine army, ally them in, SM's and Tau are battle brothers after all and it'll give you more options. 2. There are -not- enough Tau Fire Warriors in Aprior territory, let alone friendly with the KI, to be made regulars in the KI forces. 3. Xenos in mainline Imperial forces is a big no-no voiced by people on /tg/, refer back to point 1. They are not returning for these reasons. If you really want them, I stress point number 1 again.

I'll divulge a little bit of the new fluff to explain why Silencers should not be in great numbers, as well as crunch reasons for setting them back as purely HQ choices. Silencers are -very- hard to come by, either by latent null genes activating via gene seed (an excruciating process described as inverting a soul into nothing) or by implanting a null with the gene seed (but nulls are -incredibly- rare). There can be more lesser powerful Silencers, sure, but in terms of raw numbers they are really few. The more powerful ones are natural nulls, but they are extremely rare. And there is only possibly two Alphas in the universe: Rachnus and Rachnus the primarch.

For crunch reasons it's easier to balance them in just the HQ slot. They have powers and abilities that basically are unaffected by Psyker defenses (no Deny the Witch which is a key point in defending against psychic attacks). In order to balance them they have to be weaker while still roughly the same cost as a Librarian, and upgrading them brings them up to "standard" levels of power but more expensive than an equivalent Librarian/psyker. Since they lack a good degree of counterplay they have to be balanced by other means (making their powers more niche, higher cost compared to psykers). Remoon101 (talk) 23:30, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

Proposed changes for discussion

So... Ideas I had: Remove the 6+ FNP that causes all the buthurt, and provide the option to buy a "medpack" for one model for 30-40points that gives a full squad FNP(5+). Available to most infantry units, including terminators. This would mirror the Icon of excess form of FNP, and allow for a price drop on many models. --Bobthe6th (talk) 07:44, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

• Done, introducing the Aceso Astartes medical stabilizer. Feel No Pain on basically infantry units for the most part, with varying costs for units depending on their innate durability or who would benefit more from Feel No Pain. With this I can finally drop the points down to 16 a pop, or maybe even 15! Remoon101 (talk) 15:18, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Bolt-Action Bolter: A mod of the standard bolter, Which removes the semi automatic option. This design was meant to conserve amunition and features simpler mechanisms for increased durability. Bolt-Action Bolter|30"|4|5|Heavy 1, sniper.

• I attempted to add this idea in a broader form while reworking the AAMR in the Scoped special rule and the Mark-sense upgrade Remoon101 (talk) 14:40, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Intended as a free option to replace the standard boltgun. --Bobthe6th (talk) 07:44, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Heavy Sniper Rifle: An overbuilt version of the classic sniper rifle intended for use by space marines. Featuring a bipod and significantly extended barrel, this weapon resembles a modern anti tank rifle. Heavy Sniper Rifle|36"|6|3|Heavy 1, sniper, bibod*.

Scope: A piece of wargear, when equiped model makes a shooting attack with a heavy weapon, they gain the sniper special rule. If they already have the sniper special rule, they alocate wounds on a to hit of 5+. If they both have the sniper special rule and are characters, they allocate wounds on a to hit of 4+. cost 3-5 points, stealing from the tau codex now. --Bobthe6th (talk) 07:44, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Problem: A weapon with the Sniper rule doesn't have a Strength rating; it always wounds on 4+. S6 Sniper is a contradiction in terms under the game's core rules. Tactical Genius (talk) 21:57, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Shrug: replace with the wording of precision shot. if they already make persicion shots, boost it. Thought the sniper rule was just the persicion shot rule. --Bobthe6th (talk) 02:47, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Already added it in without the Sniper rule (as the Astartes Anti-Material Rifle), but with Rending and Pinning to compensate. I'll see what I can do to make it more "sniper-y". In the hands of a character it'll still have precision shots, and I think it'll be balanced overall as a ton of S6 AP4 Rending shots gaining precision could be a bit unbalanced. Remoon101 (talk) 23:21, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

What does everyone here think of putting the standard Tactical Knight at 17pts and adjusting all other similar units by -1pts to match as the final price? Take a look at the Perspectives section if you're not entirely sure what to compare. Remoon101 (talk) 16:14, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I mean... it doesn't seem like that big of a boost over the standard 14 point knights. Also, with the larger squad size means more points to get heavy weapons. Though they have a bunch of options, and they don't yet have the medpack option. --Bobthe6th (talk) 04:32, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

The biggest thing that is currently driving their points cost is The Unseen special rule, more importantly the Infiltrate-lite clause that lets you potentially always set up after your opponent, despite the increased range you need to be at to do so. With the innate FNP removed I can probably go lower to 16pts if not 15 Remoon101 (talk) 15:22, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

I mean... chapter tactics. The Unseen is a bit better then most chapter tactics, but I don't think by more then a couple points. So 16 ish. Again, the squads are minimum 6, second heavy weapon at 12, so you have to buy more then standard. Making them expensive on top of that really hurts. --Bobthe6th (talk) 19:52, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

The Unseen an optional wargear for asperents/scouts/non true knights? Like call it "Field Training." Represent unblooded troops, also shave some of the silly amount of special rules off the scouts. --Bobthe6th (talk) 19:52, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

I have an idea for the flame based land raider. Instead of a torrent redeemer, you could have these as sponsons: Targetted Promethium Launchers (name changeable)

While fighting the Tyranids of hive fleet Draco, the Knights Inductor developed this pattern of flamestorm cannon for precision targetting of attacking units, to prevent unneccesary scorched earth issues affecting the rebuild

Name	Range	S	AP	type
TPL	X	6	3	Assault 1, Fuel Line Precision

• Fuel Line Precision: when firing this weapon, select a point within 9" of the weapon providing it does not overlap the vehicle itself when a line is drawn between the weapon and the point. Then select another point within 4" of that, again providing that it does not overlap the vehicle when a line is drawn between the point and the weapon. Connect the two points and the weapon with lines, forming a triangle. Anything within that triangle is hit in the same way as a template weapon.

Mirmidion43 (talk) 10:33, 18 April 2014 (WST)

Hmm... seems a bit complicated, perhaps do a thing with string?

• Fuel Line Precision: when firing this weapon, get a 18" long piece of string. Hold the two ends together on the the weapon. Pull the string tight, Spreading the side furthest from the weapon up to 4". The area under the string counts as a template for this weapon.

perimeter of a flamer =(pi+2*(2^2+6^2)^(1/2))inches= about 16 inches.--Bobthe6th (talk) 17:49, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Kinda impractical to use, especially the fact you should have a piece of string of the exact length at hand ( Also I think you should mention that there shouldn't be more than 3 sides to the piece of string, else it could lead to abuses ). The ability to use either a 1-9" line or 1-2 flame templates ( Put side to side if 2 ) would be a lot simpler, through it does not exactly give the same versatility. Komorebi (talk) 18:01, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

A question about the AAMR. It's designed to be an "armour piercing" rifle, to "put down the target with no questions asked". In that case, IMHO, it should either be AP3 (to be able to deal with all but the heaviest armour) or S7 (The strength of the lowest real anti armour gun, the autocannon). Rending just doesn't quite cut it, since only 1 in 6 will actually achieve what the gun is said to do, making you forced to take large mobs of them - not a realistic buy given their price tag. --Mirmidion43 (talk) 19:08, 20 April 2014 (WST)

I agree, though I see why remoon tweaked my idea the way he did. Perhapce another split into two hyper specialised guns? The AMR which is S 8 AP-, and the Traitor Slayer S 5 AP 3. That way on a per model basis, you can chose to have good anti tank without being able to kill much infantry or good anti infantry without being able to kill tanks. This sound reasonable?--Bobthe6th (talk) 16:40, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that even an Astartes can't lift and fire an Autocannon at all without some sort of brace, let alone accurately. Strength 6 is pretty respectable and AP4 represents about the highest penetrating power for an ordinary slug round (as opposed to lazers and more advanced weaponry). I reworked it to make it essentially a sniper rifle without the rolling 4+ to wound and with better AP. Also made it so you can buy the Scoped special rule through the Mark-sense upgrade, haven't put the option to take it in the unit entries yet. Remoon101 (talk) 14:40, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Hang on, can't chaos marines hold autocannons as part of their tactical squad equivalent? Also, what about lascannons for weight, same with plasma cannons. Basic marines can carry them, so why not a small autocannon? I don't buy it that they can't hold that gun. With that covered, your change still doesn't address the question at hand. If they are only as good as a basic sniper rifle with a low chance of actually doing what they are said to do then they should either be S7 or AP3, as said before. That upgraded pinning/rending doesn't cut the mustard. --Mirmidion43 (talk) 11:17, 22 April 2014 (WST)

I've just never seen an Astartes-portable equivalent for Space Marines, and I felt since Autogun-line projectile weapons scale in strength due to caliber sizes a sniper rifle version of an Autocannon would be definitely be weaker, hence why I gave it S6. It's not meant to be an anti-tank weapon, since that's already fulfilled by normal heavy weapons. I've decided to go the anti-infantry route and make it S5 AP3 as was suggested, keeping the Rending/Pinning/Precision shots in. In the end this is not final so it'll still be subject to change depending on what I do for Sniper weapons in general for the Knights inductor Remoon101 (talk) 14:52, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Xavion needs a camo cloak. Right now he seems like a really nice IC to add to a stealthy sniper squad, but if they have camo cloaks xavion can be focus fired. Which seems kinda odd for a shrouded champ.

I've thought about it but I don't think it's completely necessary. In open cover you'd get a 3+ and in ruins you'd get a 2+ anyway with Shroud (since he confers it to the unit he joins anyway). Part of his special rules kit is meant for you to save the points you would've spent on the cloaks in the first place Remoon101 (talk) 14:36, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

But no cloaks does mean that on area terain you are only hitting a 3+... which is just power armor. Though I guess I do see your point. --Bobthe6th (talk) 20:54, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Counter point, he can't run with a silent hand veteran squad out of 4+ cover. They come with camocloaks stock, and seem like a reasonable honor guard.--Bobthe6th (talk) 19:07, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Interesting point there. I might make it so that Silent-Hand Vets -don't- get cloaks standard and have it as an option for both Sternguard and Silent-Hand. Remoon101 (talk) 21:53, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Option to give a captain a stalker/AMR? Or a seperate HQ focused on being a sniper, as a lower level version of Xavion?

I could put it in the ranged weapons options, sure. That'd make for some interesting builds. As always I want to encourage Knight players to have more choice with this fandex in terms of equipping their units Remoon101 (talk) 14:36, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Should innovatus squads get aceso's standard? They get the shiniest bits, so it would make sense that they do. Just raise the base cost of the squad if necessary, not the cost per git

I feel like it adds more flexibility if they can choose to take it or not. While they do get the shiniest bits, they should have some choice in what bits they want. All in all this codex is all about the increased amount of options the Knights get compared to vanilla space marines, besides the whole suppression shtick. Remoon101 (talk) 14:36, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Option to buy a captain a camo cloak? So that again, if stacking with a bunch of scouts he dosn't get focus fired to death. --Bobthe6th (talk) 20:54, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

• Add an option to take camo cloaks in the special issue wargear section for +1 pts Remoon101 (talk) 01:31, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Mark sense does nothing for units that are already sniping, but is hilarious on heavy weapons. Not a bonus for 1-2 models hillarious though. Does scoped stack with sniper to precision on a 5+? for that matter with IC's normal precision shot?

• Scoped does not stack with sniper, since those would obviously already be "scoped", nor does it stack with an IC's precision shots. It's main purpose is to give Pinning and Precision shots to those that don't have it for a flat rate cost. Remoon101 (talk) 21:53, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

A bunch of questions

Bullet points incoming! Just so you know which is which:

• Question?
  • Answer!

• Null Rod is described as Force weapon powered by Null charges. Is there a Null sword/axe/mace variants like with Force weapons?
  • I would think so. The entire reason I listed them as Force weapons was so that the player had a choice instead of being stuck with a Power Maul equivalent.
• How does Strike of Despair affect Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers unit?
  • I honestly don't know, I didn't write the Null Power rules, but I'll take a look at it.
    • Look also about it's affect on a unit with multiple psykers (warlock council).
      • I haven't changed it here yet, but I made it so that a random model within a unit with this rule takes a lone leadership check separate from the rest of it.
• Also what is the point of Banish being Focused witchfire if it affect the whole unit anyway?
  • Just changed it to a Malediction
• Why does your Demo Charge have AP2 instead of 3? High tech version?
  • Nope, standard version. I ported them directly out of the Imperial Guard codex as a neat tactical option (for a high price). It's AP2 there as well.
• Why does your Jump packs allow Deep Strike in a missions where it is not allowed? Deepstriking JP units in Zone Mortalis / Boarding missions is restricted for a reason.
  • Oh, I used the old wording for those. I'll update them to proper 6th edition "makes them Jump units"
• Your Locator Beacon allows ALL units do deepstrike perfectly. Does this include non-BB allies and enemies?
  • I wouldn't know about non-BB allies (according to the original locator beacon wording from the SM dex) but in any case, it shall be fixed to "friendly units" like as in the SM dex.
• Does dedicated melee characters like Captain or Chaplain really don't have Frag grenades they so need, or is this a typo?
  • They are given Blind grenades on purpose, though I should really put in an option in the Special Equipment options to take Frag grenades. The Chaplain is more of a dedicated counter-melee character of sorts, with Counter-Attack instead of Zealot.
• Lowly Techmarines with Bolster Defence? Really?
  • I'd check your tone if I were you, in the Codex: Space Marines, "lowly" techmarines get bolster defense, why shouldn't the Knights? So yes, "lowly" techmarines with Bolster Defense, really. Check yourself before you defame the adepts of the Omnissiah!
• How does Zakis Randi's TH works with initiative penalties, like Wraith whip coils or charging through terrain? Does it still strike at I2?
  • I can probably fix this two "strikes at -3 Initiative" instead of Unwieldy so it can interact with those rules you mentioned.
• And again about Zakis Randi - his Cunning Sreategist does not require him to be on the field or even be still alive like the similar abilities of, LR Proteus, Officer of the Fleet and Raptor Chaper-Master?
  • My bad, changing the wording to be more clear on that
• What happens if a unit already affected by a psychic power enters Rachnus Pacifus's 6" "no-magic" zone?
  • By wording, it would immediately be dispelled, though I can add that fact in for clarity and QoL sakes.

• • Thanks for the comments and questions! Remoon101 (talk) 00:56, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

• Why do guard asperent have haywire grenades? For that matter infiltrate/deepstrike?--Bobthe6th (talk) 19:52, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
  • I feel like you have a point with the Infiltrate (The Unseen) special rule, I could probably make it only so that the Sergeant has it. As for the Deep strike they're basically our version of Storm troopers in the regular Knight Inductor force, being put into perilous missions to prove their worth of still becoming Knights. As for the haywire grenades I guess that's something Imperials don't have usually? I can probably replace them for krak grenades with options of melta bombs and demolition charges then. I'm mainly fiddling around with the Tactical Knight squad since all other similar options revolve around the balancing there for the most part, but those changes I mentioned should do it for the Aspirant Guard squad Remoon101 (talk) 14:34, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
    • From playing Tau, I can say EMP grenades are terrifying as all hell, and a 2 point upgrade to a 9 point model. They provide ranged and CC anti tank without using a hand slot. Fire warriors will willingly charge walkers, just to get a shot in with an EMP grenade. It was mostly an odd thing I noticed while going through the codex, checking the tactical squads. I do like the idea of KI getting haywire grenades, it just seemed to be very cheap on already pretty great unit. Probably would work as an upgrade. --Bobthe6th (talk) 17:18, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
      • In the end I feel like haywire grenades are more Eldar and Tau's shtick anyway. The Guard Aspirants can take meltabombs and demolition charges anyway, plus they can deep strike so that should be enough in terms of options for them. Remoon101 (talk) 14:36, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

New Idea for a unit

A dedicated sniper/preemptive strike elite unit? Sort of like a squad of scaled down vindicare... or scaled up scouts. I guess this could be covered by letting silent hand veterans buy the precision shot&preemptive strike rules for a cost, but I figure it might be a nice option. I also realize Preemptive strike spam is an issue, but it seems reasonable to have a squad of silent hand veterans set up a few shots before battle is joined. Similarly, I get that scouts offer nice massed sniper fire... but at BS 3, which seems very low for snipers.--Bobthe6th (talk) 06:43, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

I've been mulling over this idea ever since I saw those 30k models space marines with sniper rifles and have been thinking of implementing the same idea (since it's something that Reasonable Marines would do). My thinking is giving the Scouts the option of upgrading to WS/BS4 to represent full knights in carapace armor. I can't really give them Preemptive Strike back (previously From Darkness Comes Light rule) since they already have a ton of rules to juggle. I'll think about giving Silent-Hands the option of taking the rule. It'll prevent spam (Sternguard + Silent-Hand upgrade already cost a lot) while providing some flavor to the unit. Remoon101 (talk) 14:45, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

How about an option to buy haywire rounds for some heavy weapons? Like the heavy mortar or any of the missile launchers. Could be a bit expensive, but offers an anti heavy armor option besides more dakka... which seems to fit the knights. --Bobthe6th (talk) 16:54, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Also... perhapce a banewolf they borrowed from the guard said to be administering a sedative rather then a lethal poison. As a Vindicator variant should be able to do it.--Bobthe6th (talk) 16:54, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

So, marauder knights are like obliterators with +2T, -1I, and losing the Deamon, deepstrike, and obliterator weapons. they cost 5 points less... which seems reasonable. Perhapce give them the option to dual wield heavy weapons at a cost?--Bobthe6th (talk) 16:54, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

I never really thought about comparing them to obliterators, I was always judging their cost more against Tactical terminators and Devastator centurions. In any case their points cost as of right now seems to be pretty balanced. I may need to expand on their wargear options a bit, they're basically a cross of those two units I mentioned. Not too shooty but definitely not shabby in CC (though they are lacking an Invulnerable save). They're mainly meant to be mini MC's due to their T6 but not be able to kill so much for their cost in points. Remoon101 (talk) 01:20, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

they are swinging I3... and only have 2 wounds. I mean, they are interesting but seem very fragile for 65 points a model. Anything meant to take out TEQs will kill the dead. They have no save against AP2 weapons besides cover which is easy to deny. They could really, really use some way to add durability, like FNP or a terminator invulnerable...--Bobthe6th (talk) 23:07, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Bobthe6th mentioned something about a "medpack" being made available to infantry units, and even units like Terminators, so if I put it in it would make sense that it would be available to Marauder Knights as well. That would cover their base of needing protection against AP2. I still need to come up with a good name/concept for it though, because I don't want it to be an apothecary in name in every single squad, but some sort of device that the Knights manufactured that could be operated or used with minimal training by a Knight. Latin-sounding would be a plus (I'm assuming Nartheciums could only be used by a fully trained apothecary). Remoon101 (talk) 19:58, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, forgot to time stamp that last reply. Asclepius is the greek god of healing, which is kinda obscure and lantin like. Also fits with GWs habit of borrowing names from greek/roman mythology(looking at you hydra/gorgon sige cannon.)--Bobthe6th (talk) 23:07, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

The idea is to emulate the CSM's icon of excess... which is a really reasonable item, featuring a weakness(if you kill one model the squad loses FNP and an aditional 30-40 points) while providing a really useful bonus. --Bobthe6th (talk) 00:10, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Used Aceso, the daughter of Acelepius, a goddess of the process of healing. I started with 25pts with higher costs for more expensive or durable units. It's a bit cheaper than 30-40pts since the icon acts like a teleport homer of sorts. I can always bump up the price though; i had based it off of the Apothecary cost. Remoon101 (talk) 14:40, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Valkyrie Avengers

Valkyrie Avengers are in serious need of retuning. As written, they're Vendetta gunships with different upgrade options and ceramite. The trouble is, in the new Guard codex, Vendettas were nerfed pretty hard, with transport capacity cut to 6 and cost bumped up 40 points from the previous edition on top of that. So 145 for an old Vendetta with better survivability is a steal. I think the unit can be fine, but you're looking at 180 points at least to balance the cost, I think. Tactical Genius (talk) 02:07, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm hoping to add a version of the Storm Raven and the Storm Talons in as well, so once I get to the Flyers I'll give the Valkyries a re-do. Thanks for the update on the Astra Militarum Valks, since I don't have that codex as of yet. Remoon101 (talk) 18:19, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Brought the Valkyrie Avenger up to 180pts to balance with the transport capacity cut to 6 (for now). Also added, cut and moved around some options. Remoon101 (talk) 15:38, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

On the note of Valkyrie Avengers, I am planning on adding another variant of Valkyrie that will have bomb pylons with different types using the various canister ammo mentioned in the discussion for the Landraider Suppressor. Minimal armament but I'll have the transport capacity bumped up to 12man Remoon101 (talk) 18:22, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Codex Overhaul Number Two

In anticipation of major fluff changes I'm doing a top to bottom overhaul of the codex. I'll be removing some unique units and adding other unique options to compensate.

I really want to get rid of Tactical Synchronization. All the units as they are have a full Chapter Tactics worth of special rules (Stealth Stratagem) and then some (Empyrean Anathema) and adding a third to all the units is overloading it a bit. It might allow for a tiny price drop across the codex but as it currently stands it's an unneeded special rule. While I would like there to be interesting gameplay mechanics added through unique rules, Tact Sync isn't one of them (already done by Tau).

While you're at it, you should completely redo the crunch- it's described on several threads as being so OP that it makes 5e Greg Knights look balanced by comparison. It needs across the board nerfs badly, or nobody outside of the tiny enclave of KI fans will take it seriously. --Newerfag (talk) 16:16, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Can do, I'm removing a lot of the toys that made the KI into essentially Dark Age of Technology level killing machines and making them more on level with the typical Astartes Chapter given maybe a few extra toys like the Space Wolves/Blood Angels. I'm trying to put the "subdue and overcome efficiently and with as little harm as possible" shtick in there without being "we haz da technologies" that was previously there. Examples: Cerberus launcher as a suppressor tool moved to being able to be equipped on more mainline vehicles, stunner bolts, electro shackles, etc., things that are hopefully not over the top in terms of the tech level required but fit the role of Reasonable Marines that are taking their job seriously. Remoon101 (talk) 17:24, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

As nice as that sounds on paper, the whole thing has to be rewritten from scratch. The list threads which have seen it have claimed that it quite literally cannot be fixed in its current state. I strongly advise you to ask people outside of 1d4chan about it first before doing anything else, and listen very carefully to what they say- if they found your first overhaul to have no redeeming value, trying to do a second one without someone else pointing out the flaws will end just as badly. (On that note, it might be smart to refluff the codex to exist outside of what NLP has written, or its reputation as "that Mary Sue chapter that befriends Tyranids and turns Sisters of Battle into euphoric atheists" will drive away a lot of players even if the flaws are addressed.) --Newerfag (talk) 19:32, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

The first overhaul was mainly formatting and was actually a buff to the codex, so it's no surprise that it didn't fix anything to do with fluff or the issues that surround the mary sue KI problem. This second one is different in its intent, and is currently a work in progress. In fact it was just started a few days ago.

I'll admit I'm doing this a bit backwards, remaking the codex while the current fluff is still up, but I'm just doing what is easiest for me to accomplish right now while I also look at the complaints and issues everyone has about the original/NLP KI. Suggestions and criticisms pertaining to the codex balance, units, and rules is always appreciated, but honestly it's not even a quarter done yet and it's not supposed to be a fluffy piece of writefaggotry on its own unlike GW codicies.

I could re-fluff it all (within the codex) but I honestly believe that there's some good ideas in the Knights Inductor but just with a lot of bad ones that ruin the rest of it as a serious Reasonable Marines chapter. A mainly crunch-filled fandex isn't going to really change that. But it's a small step.

While I don't think it's going to be terribly productive having people give advice/criticism on an overhaul that hasn't happened yet, I'm still open to said advice/criticism as it progresses. I'm sorry for being the bad OP who didn't pre-type the green text story before posting it but I'm still working on unit/wargear/rules changes/adding/subtracting and after that is all the pricing/points balancing.

tl;dr basically haven't done the overhaul yet. Crunch-based fandex is not a fluff change. still have hope. a small step. advice/criticism appreciated. Remoon101 (talk) 20:47, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

All right. Here's a big list of complaints regarding the current version, straight from /tg/ (with the most important points italicized by me). If I were you, I'd pay very close attention:

It's not OP compared to Tau or Eldar but there are a few reasons not to play it besides the horrendous fluff/names/faggotry:

1. Shittons of special rules. I won't play vs a homebrew army with a shitton of special rules. A few armywide rules, a few specialized weapons, etc. When virtually everything needs to be checked in the unit entry, something is terribly wrong.

2. The army USRs are fairly imbalanced. Compared to the points costs of a normal marine, they come with ATSKNF and their version of combat squads, and basically get Infiltrate-lite, Adamantium Will, and Stealth for a pittance (like a ranged-heavy army WON'T stand still in the movement phase).

Oh wait, all their power armored models get FNP free as well. The ones that DON'T? They get free Relentless with their carapace.

And all of this tends to increase cost by about 2, maybe 3 points per model over the equivalent in other codices. That's a steal.

The Rhino traded a useless repair ability for +2 transport capacity. The Drop Pod supposedly traded armor for more capacity (but it didn't).

Plenty of other stupid things like scatter-free Deepstrike for 25 points.

3. Things changed "just because". - When marines are sold in boxes are 5/10, having squad sizes of 6-24 makes buying models more of a pain. - Unblockable totally-not-psychic-powers are stupid as a concept, as every other army must follow those rules.

4. (Minor) Stupid fucking names "Mendicant Brias"- Wow, 1 letter away from that Halo AI... I just noticed someone changed the name from this morning. "Rico" the jump *cough*mobile infantry HQ. >Shadow Clone Generator no Jutsu

tl;dr the entire fucking thing suffers from failing to prioritize "less, not more" instead of "wouldn't it be cool if [x]"?

>entire chapter gets FNP for no reason

>all techmarines ignore established canon of superstition and happily develop shit without Mars saying 'Fuck you no' >Tau -fire warrior defections no really what. xenos along side marines as regulars? fuck off >redeemers with torrent

basically it's an entire codex of 'Just better than You' for no reason

If I had to sum it up, it seems that you need to either strip the army of most of their most broken rules (seriously, why did you think giving so many of them FnP was a good idea?), or make them far more expensive than they are now. Again, my advice is to refluff this as Codex- Raptors; they're basically the "serious Reasonable Marines" you want, but with an established background and none of the Mary-Sue reputation to weigh them down.--Newerfag (talk) 23:37, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

---

Thank you very much for the from /tg/ feedback. Here are all of my replies/comments on all of the points you've brought to me.

1. Special rules do need a slimming down admittedly. I'll do my best to try to streamline it as best as possible and remove blatantly unnecessary ones.

2. I think the KI had been originally balanced to work around the 20pts per marine line but somewhere along the road someone else went through the codex and gave everything a points cut for some reason, not my intention for everything to be discounted 2-3pts right off the bat. Unless I can come up with some other rule ATSKNF is staying in. The combat squads equivalent is probably staying in (though since the fluff -is- undergoing a rewrite the number of marines to a squad can be changed, something I'll consider). I want to keep Infiltrate-lite or something close to that but the stealth can definitely go (some units already have easy access to camo cloaks). I really want the Adamantium Will in there since it's part of their shtick, I can easily bump up the number of models needed in a squad for it to work. Free Stealth is going as I said. Points cost will probably be around 18-19 range still (minus the power armor/equipment, I'll talk about that later).

• In regards to these special rules this is not final but the direction I'll probably head in for now

3. Free FNP is probably going to be nerfed to a 6+ at least, if not taken out outright. If I keep it in as a 6+ FNP the cost of the marine will go up at least 1pt for it. Carapace armor does -not- get Relentless. In fact only one unit gets Relentless 4+ and that's the Inductees (their cost is probably going up as well due to having BS4 + access to heavy/special weapons with relentless).

And all of this tends to increase cost by about 2, maybe 3 points per model over the equivalent in other codices. That's a steal.

• Refer back to my previous comment about someone going through the codex slashing costs by 2-3pts without my approval. With the nerfs everything might go back up to 20pts at least or 18-19pts.

The Rhino traded a useless repair ability for +2 transport capacity. The Drop Pod supposedly traded armor for more capacity (but it didn't).

• Rhino will get a tiny price increase. Really, it's a small amount of space with paper thin armor ??(AV11 is nothing in 6th). As for the Drop pod it only has 2 HP, I can go back and make it AV11 all around and/or increase the cost. Thinking about it now I'll probably just increase the cost along with reducing armor/taking out repair. 2 extra models can be somewhat significant so the price will match that.

Plenty of other stupid things like scatter-free Deepstrike for 25 points.

• I'll try to find a better way to represent full stealth Terminators. Might need to take a page out of the Tau stealth suits for that one (since that's apparently what they're based off of). Or I can just increase the cost of the upgrade to compensate for locator/beacon + unit not having to be there. This rule will definitely be looked at either way.

3. squad size issue: I didn't realize it'd be that big of a problem. I had assumed since the individual models were going to be so expensive anyway that no one would really fill out multiple squads of 24. Someone in the long past did suggest bumping it all up to 30man squads to make it easier but 20man squads would be more feasible. Yeah, it was originally changed just because but the reasoning in larger squads (the odd number of 24 specifically) was so that there was more tactical flexibility in splitting (2 12man or 3 8man depending on the situation). If the individual marines get costly enough hopefully this won't be a problem. Either way I'm still not final on this, as it would also affect the current changes to transports.

Unblockable faux-psyker powers. I originally kept the number of powers down to three and wanted the Silencers to be more of a niche and expensive (esp. since they were not affected by psyker issues) elite/hq choice that added flavor in that they were exactly not psykers. I had also planned for them to undergo some serious nerfs (once again someone else had buffed the HQ choice moving what I had originally wrote to Elites... a bit of a pain). As an overhaul in progress I have not touched these guys yet so the critique was only a little helpful here.

4. (Minor) Stupid fucking names. yes, I did take that from the Halo AI. It's already been changed before I saw that particular comment about the name, due to my changing his title from Shipmaster to Master of Fleet and wanting to space his entry out better. I didn't come up with the name Isaac Rico for the assault captain and I was not aware of any reference to anything in that regard. I honestly don't see an issue with him in particular though it can always be changed (very, very low priority). Shadow clone generator was a silly name that I was intending to change. But name changes are currently low priority and I'm still working on special rules + wargear (and then the points balancing).

tl;dr the entire fucking thing suffers from failing to prioritize "less, not more" instead of "wouldn't it be cool if [x]"?

• Got it, though in my defense this overhaul was just started mere days ago and I didn't have the benefit of these helpful comments in the few days I have been working on this.

'>Tau -fire warrior defections no really what. xenos along side marines as regulars? fuck off

• Tau warriors as regulars were not my idea, someone else put those in. I'm taking them out because they're not necessary and you can just ally Tau in. That last swear was also unnecessary, can you please tell these people that this codex suffers from having been tampered by another user who doesn't post ideas on the talk page before editing the codex?

>entire chapter gets FNP for no reason

• This point has already been touched upon earlier. To add upon this, they do have a reason for a form of FNP in standard power armor: primarily the apothecaries and the tech marines modified them in an effort to reduce the massive casualties the chapter was suffering (and the fact that training for them takes so long). This is however a tentative fluff thing, so it's not terribly relevant to crunch, but that's the reason.

>all techmarines ignore established canon of superstition and happily develop shit without Mars saying 'Fuck you no'

• This is a fluff issue, not a codex balance issue. On that note the KI were separated from Mars for supposedly 1000+ years in original fluff at least so they couldn't say 'fuck you no'. On the other hand I was planning on rewriting said fluff to have the Master of the Forge adamantly opposed to the heresy of innovation undergoing a massive debate on it all. However I can't really expand upon this further due to this supposed to being a crunch codex only discussion for the most part.

>redeemers with torrent

• Haven't touched the landraiders at all yet. The redeemers suffer from 'being pre-overhaul' issues.

basically it's an entire codex of 'Just better than You' for no reason

• Wow really? As if they hadn't noticed that before? It's almost as if this codex overhaul was just started a mere days ago in order to work on this issue! Snark aside, this is also encroaching on fluff issue and has little to contribute to balancing/structure of the codex issues. It also reflects the fact that I haven't been able to tune that down yet, despite working on this for the scant hours I can put into this along with my job and college work.

If I had to sum it up, it seems that you need to either strip the army of most of their most broken rules (seriously, why did you think giving so many of them FnP was a good idea?), or make them far more expensive than they are now.

• My comments regarding the above are well... above

Again, my advice is to refluff this as Codex- Raptors; they're basically the "serious Reasonable Marines" you want, but with an established background and none of the Mary-Sue reputation to weigh them down.

• I believe that is great advice, and indeed the critique was already stained with negative bias due to the codex being unseparable to a great degree from the unchanged fluff, but I still hold my belief that the Knights Inductor have some great potential given a major fluff change. It just hasn't happened yet.

My last comment to you, Newerfag, is that the posted critique was both helpful and really, really unhelpful at the same time due to how little I've managed to get what I wanted done before you decided to bring /tg/ in on this. That said they've made some good points, some of which I had already been thinking about going into this overhaul and a few that took me by surprise and gave me something to think about. The vitrol hurts a bit, but I know that the -original- KI deserve it, however I am a person behind this screen trying to do this overhaul.

My criticism of the /tg/ review and what I'd like to say to them if I don't get on /tg/ myself is the following:

• This overhaul has not been done yet. At all. Unfortunately that means that some of your points were essentially wasted because you thought some things were post-overhaul when in fact I hadn't looked at the unit/rule in question.
• This codex suffers from another user having edited the codex without prior discussion in the talk page, leading to various imbalances and wonky things in general (Tau Defectees and a conspicious 2-3pt deficit prominently).
• While I understand it's hard if not impossible to really separate the codex/original fluff, I want /tg/ to see the possible fluff changes that will happen once this codex is done and can communicate that better. That said, this codex is 97.5% crunch so fluff discussion is rarely relevant to the overhaul. If you want to rage about fluff that I'm not working on go to NLP or something, I'm not the guy to talk to for that, yet.
• Thank you for the helpful points regarding the special rules balancing as well as comments on the current playability of the Knights. While I have been thinking some of which you had thought, I also got some new ideas and perspectives on issues that I wouldn't have gotten otherwise.
• Comments, concerns and opinions on changes that have recently been made as this codex overhaul progresses are obviously the most helpful since most of the issues from the pre-overhaul that I am already well aware of and were the reason I decided to do the overhaul in the first place.

I hope this reply is seen in good nature and is helpful in clarifying the overall direction this codex make over is moving to other people. Remoon101 (talk) 14:35, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

To be honest, they don't even know that an overhaul is in progress (or if they are aware of it, they don't care)- I found all of that in a thread where someone brought the codex up and asked if the crunch was good (and in fact clarified he was only interested in the crunch); the comments posted there are taken directly from that thread, barring a few minor grammar fixes (foolz link is [1]). Only the very last part was my own thoughts on the subject matter. Although I admire your optimism regarding the fluff, the KI's reputation is simply beyond saving- at the very best they're relegated to being the butt of jokes and at worst are openly despised. The only way to save them is to essentially dispose of ALL their current fluff and start from scratch, and even then I'm not wholly convinced that people will be willing to give them a second chance. (And if you choose to go onto /tg/ yourself, do yourself a favor and don't reveal yourself as the codex's maker- something tells me that they won't be interested in providing you with constructive criticism.)--Newerfag (talk) 21:05, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

>To be honest, they don't even know that an overhaul is in progress (or if they are aware of it, they don't care)

• Best that they don't know. I plan on just quietly fixing things up here before moving on to fluff. Which shall be gutted. Quietly.

>The only way to save them is to essentially dispose of ALL their current fluff and start from scratch

• I had realized this a while ago but for the longest time I had no idea where to go with the Knights until I got a spark recently.

>and even then I'm not wholly convinced that people will be willing to give them a second chance.

• they don't have to give the Knights Inductor a second change. In the end all I want is a finished product that stands far apart from the original KI in (better) quality. Even if it somehow turns out perfect and people still shit on it due to past fluff-karma i'll be happy as long as I know that someone did something about it.

>(And if you choose to go onto /tg/ yourself, do yourself a favor and don't reveal yourself as the codex's maker- something tells me that they won't be interested in providing you with constructive criticism.)

• I wasn't really planning on going on /tg/ anytime soon due to the reasons I posited above. If I do go at all it's going to be when I at least something to show for it.

All in all thanks for bringing in the comments here and thanks for the help so far. I'll just keep at it for now until I'm done or I run out of ideas. Codex comes first and then I'll see what I can do about the fluff. Remoon101 (talk) 23:46, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Regarding fluff revisions, I've assembled some thoughts on what I plan to do to my stuff (Newerfag has also shared an idea of his, which is interesting but probably isn't something I'd write about the Knights). Basically, I'm ready to toss almost anything, with the exception of the elements from An Investigation into the Heresy of the Reasonable Marines (I think I've said this to Newerfag somewhere, but tossing that would feel like writing something about the Ultramarines and then revealing that they were never actually from Ultramar), and even those elements can be played with thanks to the usual 40K standbys of incomplete information and unreliable narrators.

The short version of the new direction that I'm imagining is that the Knights were created (probably from Ultramarine stock, if we're dumping the Silencer bits -- or even if we keep them, it's probably best to start with known stable stock before tinkering around) to work well with the IG and other Imperial organizations; once they start interacting with the "little guys" (IG and civilians) in a substantial capacity, the rest follows -- work to resolve conflicts before they break out into fighting (especially when it's internal conflicts) and end them quickly when the fighting starts to minimize casualties, and when the fighting is over, work to rebuild things so the next generation is better prepared (being Ultramarine successors would also help on this count). They won't (can't, because they don't have the numbers) do this alone, but they can work with forces from the relevant Adepti and use their mobility and advanced command/control/communication capabilities to help things along (a bit like how the US and other militaries and civil defense organizations help out in major disasters). Your suggested doctrine of quickly disabling enemies (to stop them from moving on to harm others, to take prisoners for interrogation, or to leave them alive for reconciliation [if possible]) fits well with this.

Regarding names, I thought Rico was alright (nicknaming his company the "Roughnecks" might be overdoing it), but whatever. I made his company the way it is/was because (1) it gets back to the roots of putting the "Marine" in "Space Marines" and (2) the MI are one good model of how a combat-oriented group of reasonable marines could be. I'm surprised nobody complained about the face-plated accented techpriestess named Zorah, but maybe she didn't get enough screen time to stick in people's heads (and she's not in the codex). --Not LongPoster Again (talk) 19:57, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

On the OP side of thing, I think Kraken bolts are not a bad idea, but 2 points ( /model ) for it maybe isn't enough even on standard bolters ( AP4 completely nullifies armor saves against many armies while they usually pay a higher price for those - such as Carapace armor, 3pts/model - and that's not considering the range upgrade which may not sound that crazy but still puts bolters at an advantage against, say, lasguns and such, but also adds 3" to the rapid fire range, allowing it to be above the average movement+charge distance ), but the perspective of 42" AP3 Heavy bolters is terrifying for that price. Komorebi (talk) 11:51, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

• Yeah, this was by far one of the key issues with trying to balance the Knights and get them below the 20pt range at a reasonable price for their special rules. I decided to just completely do away with the bolts as being standard since their tech level change wouldn't justify being able to reproduce specialized ammunition in massive quantities. I think I'll keep it in as an optional ammunition type in some form, but the question is still how much? 3pts for a +6" range on bolters and AP4 sounds reasonable until you realize that Sternguard get Ld9 A2 (supposedly a 10pt upgrade to get those stats in Codex: Space Marines for the Sergeant) and then 3 different types of special ammunition including Kraken for essentially -2pts when compared to Tacticals (though they are not scoring). With that in perspective Kraken bolts at 2pts a pop seems fine for the Knights, especially since you still need good positioning to take advantage of the 6"/3" RF range and AP4 does squat versus Sv3 and better and AV of all types. Those Kraken heavy bolters are probably not coming back ever though. I had thought about Rending bolters but I ultimately decided against it since it's an upgrade that would only come into play 1/6 of the time, useful then, but even more situational than Kraken bolts. Remoon101 (talk) 15:28, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

I need new ideas, not needless edits

This codex overhaul is turning into a mess with my edits being undone and points being modified and numbers being tweaked without me knowing what all of them were. A codex -cannot- be balanced by two+ guys on the internet going at it at the same time, something I learned from working on Codex - The Covenant which is why I held off of it once I laid the base down. However I am claiming sole responsibility for fixing up and making over this codex as the guy who originally created it at the first place. As ever I am open to suggestions on the talk page of the codex, with ones that make sense and or have general consensus agreement being admitted but the editing without first suggesting and discussing on this codex's talk page will no longer be tolerated.

• I AM open to having help with the codex in making new items, but it is not needed. I'd much rather have ideas being tossed around and new units and wargear being discussed then having to revert someone else' edits, which makes a waste of that person's and my own time. Remoon101 (talk) 23:55, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

(me again! sorry I tend to drop in and out depending on school work loads)you need new ideas? if I may throw my two cent into the ring I did make my own a VERY ROUGH concept for the knights that may help with some issues, or at least give some fresh perspective on them, for example, rather then running around in 24 man squads, they have 12 man 'demi squads' that can break into 6 man fire teams, sergeants being an Elite slot you get for every 24 marines, which is both fluffy with the 24 marine squads and crunchy, it also means that the Knights troops choices 'cap out' at leadership 8 since you can't have a sergeant with both squads (also no hidden power fist), but the knights know when to fold em and run for it so it fits but it is a weakness. But the thing I really think I have a insight on are the null powers, which I turned into negative warp charges, literally. Click my name for the list I posted to my page, I don't pretend that i know if it's any more balanced then the one you have Remoon, but I think I can at least start some discussion with a second take on the subject, evolution and all that stuff.Dragonkingofthestars (talk) 4:08, 21 june 014(UTC)

7th Edition

The Codex is still technically in its second overhaul however I did not manage to finish it before 7th hit, so I'll be making some changes here and there, and especially in regards to the new Psychic phase. I'll be posting 7th edition related changes here for future reference that I'm planning on enacting

• Empyrean Anathema will no longer give Adamantium Will and will instead help to generate extra Warp Charges for the purpose of nullifying powers. Sort of like how Grey Knights get Warp Charges via being psykers except without the "we're all psykers" shtick.

• Silencers will no longer be pseudo-psykers and instead have stronger passive abilities to disrupt psychic powers. It'll just get really complicated with all the Warp Charges and Null Charges being flung around to really have them be simple enough to use. They might get one semi-active power that is based off a leadership test but that would be about it. Silencers were also supposed to be limited in just how far they could manipulate their auras anyway.

• Marksman Auto-sense will give Precision Shot as per the new special rule describing it.

Sounds good. Though what is the plan with the debuff aura? now it is not leadership based they have issues. Also, with the anthema... perhapce have an added debuff to psykers in CC with suficient numbers of Knights, as they try not to vomit in the face of that much null... --Bobthe6th (talk) 07:43, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I am back, just to make some more tweaks. I currently am out of the loop out of all things Warhammer but I feel like I should at least get this codex a little closer to where it needs to be.

Anathema now grants negative Warp Charges called Null Charges which have a specific use. Squads that number below a certain amount have a decreased ability to produce Null Charges. This essentially makes them anti Grey Knights without each squad having a special power.

I've taken out the free Infiltrate as not only is it too strong it also has only a one-time use, making it bump up points cost for relatively little gain. I hate how 7th took away pinning from the Sniper rule so I'm putting more emphasis on suppressive fire which matches the Knights a bit better. Also, the rule name will be changed to Suppressive Fire. However I don't want to go through the whole codex to change every instance of The Unseen to Suppressive Fire. Someone else can do that if they wish or I'll get it done when I'm bored.

Items that previously gave Pinning will be edited to synergize better with the new army wide special rule.

Other changes also include the Null Powers. They'll probably stay in, but since Null Charges will be produced much more easily the cost of some of the powers will be increased.Remoon101 (talk) 00:28, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Based off of some modeling that I did, I added the option for Captain Xavion to take Xerxes into battle with him. Remoon101 (talk) 20:22, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

Purchasable Silencer Special Rule for characters

So, I've been mulling over something as a form of customization for characters. What do you guys think of the idea of allowing characters(Generic Captains, Chaplains, Techpriests, Sargeants), the ability to purchase a single Silencer Mastery level, with or without replacing their melee weapon with a Null Weapon.

I'd put it in as balancing around a 20 point upgrade, very similar to the Norn Crown over in Codex: /tg/ Tyranids. An enterprising player could have 4 or so 12 man squads of tacticals, and each sergeant having a single mastery level. Then the squads would generate 8 Null Charges a round. The main counter-balancing point being that points spent on gaining more null charges, are essentially wasted against armies with limited psykers and/or no daemons.

From a rules-perspective, it'd be very messy. From a fluff perspective, no, not just anyone can have the incredibly rare skills of a Silencer. No one besides some select Imperial Assassins and Silencers can even manipulate the null auras that they have.

However, if we were going to add it as an upgrade anyway, I'd suggest that they could only use the Unleash Aura Null Power, or have some other limit. Remoon101 (talk) 19:04, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

I am considering adding a way for HQ's to purchase a rule Macharius Stratagem style (being able to give a single unit a tactical USR). I'm not quite sure how to go about this yet. Remoon101 (talk) 15:26, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

The issue with Null charges

Did I get it right, that units with Empyrean Anathema only generates Null Charges during the ENEMY psy-phase? If so, Silencers only get stuck with 2 or 1 charges during theirs psy-phase (as they cannot use those D6 Warp charges that are randomly generated per army).

Also, while using Null charges for 4+ DtW against maledictions and witchfires, manifested on units with Empirean Anathema is perfectly fine fluff-wise, denying a blessing on a unit across the table or denying enemy psy power on allies that aren't semi-pariahs makes no sense. Mezmerro (talk) 08:54, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

This was a thing that's been around since I hopped on the codex back in december. Yea, it could be changed so that the Null Charges apply during your psychic phase, but that leads to horrifyingly powerful Silencers, doing ridiculous things en'masse, and making us on par with Grey Knights. Empyrean Anathema is supposed to normally be a defensive ability. As Remoon said, we ARE NOT grey knights, I'm also keen on keeping it that way.

And to Clarify, it's -null charges- that deny automatically on a 4+, the warp charges from the D6 don't deny on a 4, they go off on a 6. Imagine it as like a deep mire that enemy psykers must push through, to get their powers off through the collective miasma generated by a mass of knights. In an 1850 point game, you'll usually have around 6 null charges to play around with if you're not bringing silencers. This number goes down as you start to lose knights. Bringing silencers adds more "Null mastery" to the list. Note that proper psyker armies will have FAR more than 6 charges to play with in an 1850 game, while just bringing the "casual two psykers" will similarly net you a par amount. - Evilexecutive

Now here's my two bit. To keep your Silencers from being stuck with only two null charges during their psychic phase. YOU generate d6+mastery of null charges, just like librarians. Empyrean anathema is bonus mastery levels for defensive purposes. It's the Knight's natural collective aura.

• For a Null-Charge usage by Nullifiers I may propose using pre-7e system of "spend chages, then pass an Ld-test". This may also help keeping higher chance of "not perils" on both double 1 and 6, compared to oblt double 6 for psyykers nowadays. ANd as a nice bonus, you may re-write silencer rules to not be connected to psyker BRB rules at all.

As for DtW, pariah auras are fairly short-ranged, and even silencers cannot push it across the board. So how about this:

• Null charges can be used for Deny the Witch tests, but tests, made using Null Charges to deny psychic powers, manifested on units with Empirean Anathema, on any units within 12" of them or by the psyker within 12" of them are passed on 4+.

This way you have a nice fluff-friendly medium-sized "fuck you, psykers" bubble Shadows in the Warp - style, not the bullshit table-wide anti-psyker Runes of Warding-style. Mezmerro (talk) 06:48, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

• I'm only slightly fine with the limited range on Empyrean Anathema, and keep in mind aa it is, Empyrean Anathema is quite balanced against armies with 1 or 2 psykers. I don't want to see this changed too much because it works, and on a 1-1 ratio of armies, except for grey knights and demons, there's a roughly 50% chance of shutting down enemy psychic phases. Get Remoon's and Mirm's say first before changes are made of this magnitude to how Empyrean Anathema works. As is, I absolutely don't approve of putting us back in 6th edition psychics. -evilexecutive@gmail.com

I have edited Null Charges to be easier to generate in general, except when under threshold. I am considering lowering the DtW roll for Null Charges to 5+ instead of 4+. Most importantly, I have edited the E.A. rule so that null charges are generated EACH psychic phase instead of the enemy's. Remoon101 (talk) 15:25, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Remoon101 I have to point out that your changes have the potential to create a nasty loophole that could possibly make Silencers overpowered. This is why you had it originally set up that Empyrean Anathema only gives null charges for in the opponent's psychic phase. I have not undone it, but edited the special rule entry so that Silencers cannot utilize that amount of Null Charges. As for balancing, Empyrean Anathema is now setup so that it's optimized for smaller games, but becomes too powerful in anything over 1500 points. The way the math is, is that at the start of the game, a 24 man tactical squad produces double the null charges, 4 charges per turn instead of 2 if the squad happens to be in x4 6man fire-teams. If said fire-teams are all under strength, now you're producing 1.3 null charges per turn, down from 1.5

Please, in the name of the god emperor, email me Remoon101. I'm fine with reducing the DTW Power, but doubling the number of null charges per turn, and enabling rape machines is a little harsh.

Remoon101 (talk) 21:48, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Also it's impossible to have two pairs of 12 Silencers unless you're playing Unbound, but who does that? My changes to Empyrean Anathema are not final, thank you for your continued help in balancing and pointing out potential abuses of the rules. Remoon101 (talk) 21:49, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Oh, whoops that was a typo, I meant to say a pair of silencers with a total of 12 mastery levels from Empyrean Anathema. I was saying that having two silencers bum rushing someone's deployment zone, and using an ungodly amount of null charges to Fear people off of the board was a terrifying concept. I think it's a little better for the opponents if the null charges don't deny as harshly, so 4+ or 5+ seems to be a good number to balance around. -Evilexecutive

The thing I guess I'm trying to go for is to give Silencers more offensive capability, while not be overwhelming in the enemy psychic phase. The reason being that the way it was, no charges aside from the Silencer's mastery level were generated in the friendly psychic phase, whilst regular psykers get a D6 free Warp Charges. This would make it hard for Silencers to get powers off on their own. I guess the actual mistake for the most part was the threshold reduction, which I've fixed.

It's nice that we get more psychic defense in general but I don't want it to be too major of a rule aside from the Silencer mechanic or else I can't find a way to jack down the price of a Knight (see the Perspective section for details of what I'm going for with a price reduction). After looking at your math for null charges I reverted the 6 threshold back to 10, and reduced the D6 generation mechanic as I originally planned. Someone else added that and I think it's fine, but there was a reason I had the threshold in the beginning like that. I've gone ahead and allowed Silencers to use Null charges generated in the friendly psychic phase for that matter, since it should be a little more reasonable with the reverted numbers. Funny thing being was that the number 10 was arbitrarily chosen but turned out to be a key balancing point in this manner.

I'm still debating on whether Null Charges should even get a bonus to Deny the Witch, considering we do happen to get the D6 charges as per the Psychic phase in addition to any Null Charges we generate. Does the bonus "denial Warp Charges" make for a good defense or do we really need the 5+ (forget the 4+) for it to be useful?

The bonus "Denial Warp Charges" work quite wonderfully actually. In most games I've played where my army struck a good balance between force composition, and number of null charges, I had about 7 null charges available on average. This worked out meaning you could guarantee that at least one enemy psychic ability wasn't going to manifest. That produced an interesting tactical aspect, especially in larger psychic phases where you had to figure out exactly where you wanted to pile the null charges to stop something critical. I had a 4500 point game where a titan was on the board, and I used them solely to stop my opponent from making the damn thing invisible. You can optimize your army to produce a reasonable number of them, which is roughly 4-6 charges per 1250 points according to my math. Or you can go overboard, and kill your organization to get more charges. Null charges like this are wasted against armies with no psychic phase, and after awhile your opponents will learn to not spend too many points on risking psychic powers either. -Evilexecutive

We may also need further clarifications to the nature of Null Charges. Probably. Remoon101 (talk) 22:23, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

After looking at the Inverted Soul special rule I really feel like it's unnecessary for several points. #1, under Null Powers, deny the witch rolls against them can never be improved beyond a 6+, so having it under an Inverted Souls rules is redundant. #2, I believe that there should not be a free D6 null charges. The D6 charge rule stems from the Fantasy rule of the winds of the ethereal, with the result representing how strong the winds of magic are. I believe it's the same for 40k, except with the D6 representing the strength of Warp in that particular Psychic Phase.

For that reason, it doesn't make sense for D6 Null Charges to be floating around. Additionally #3, I wanted Null Charges to be relatively limited, which was fine before the Inverted Souls rule change. Take it away, and we still get the standard D6 Warp Charges for denying, just without the bonus, which is enough for many armies. We still get Null Charges on top of that. I'm running out of time to write so I'll add more if I have to later. Remoon101 (talk) 21:32, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

To be fair, the whole D6 warp charges that the psykers can access isn't a winds of magic thing, it's more a "how much power can we access at this given point in time without attracting too much daemon" and yes that applies to daemons - they don't want to have a rival show up. I agree with you on point #1, kinda disagree with you on #2, if that trick was too nasty to be balanced, Grey Knights wouldn't be a thing, so I disagree with #3 unless you have a fluff reason - Silencers can't access warp charges, as inverted soul requires you to have a psyker to generate the charges. Just my two bits on the situation - Mirmidion43

Yea, the issue right now with #3 is indeed that Silencers don't use Warp Charges. I set up Inverted Soul so that it was clear and very obvious that Null Charges are not Warp Charges. But without that rule, we don't have that so clearly set-up. I personally don't like the idea of generating warp charges in an army made of people who are partially psychic nulls. And yes, as Mirm said, generating charges is indeed more to do with how much power you can draw without causing attention to yourself, hence why psykers of higher mastery levels draw more power each turn. Now the last bit, I would say this as Silencers roll the D6, this represents their ability to draw power from their army's collective null aura.

The bit with null charges only denying other null charges on a 6+ is more important than you think remmy. I've had many, MANY people ask me how that would work, and the bit on the psychic powers didn't truly say much about that.

I'm also not advocating outright removing the rule either, as we still need to keep the bit about Null Charges adequately explained. If you feel it needs to be changed, then have it changed around, until you feel satisfied with it. -Evilexecutive

I'm advocating streamlining rules when possible. It is getting a little bloated for my taste and one line that strikes me as unnecessary is: In the case of two armies with Silencers, Null Charges can only deny Silencer powers on a 6+, as that case IS covered underneath the Null Powers entry (i.e. no improvement on any DTW rolls beyond a 6+). Yes, and yes it is covered underneath Null Powers if you read it carefully how it interacts. My goal is turn that paragraph of a sub-rule (to Empyrean Anathema) to something a little tidier like it was before with the Null Charges sub-rule.

I am still opposed to the D6 Null Charges, especially since I believe that the numbers previously quoted before on generating Null Charges were fine enough. Not only that, it adds more "baggage" to the rule (streamlining issue), with literally half of the writing on the D6 generation clause basically restating the main rulebook itself. I do not think we deserve to pluck D6 Null Charges out of thin air, and I believe that Null Charges we get are fine for powering Silencer powers. Not only that, the Null Charges rule already made the differentiation between Null Charges and Warp Charges well enough, the only thing Inverted Soul does is bog it down with 1. adding a D6 Null charge generation mechanic and 2. having to have 1-2 lines to explain the mechanic.

Yes, I know Silencers can't use Warp charges, that was the point. But once again, they didn't NEED to. And under the old Null Charges specification as Null Charges said before they were allowed to use Null Charges to power Silencer powers and that was clear enough. Any more clarification about that should be put under the SILENCER special rule in the Silencer unit entry or under the Null Powers entry.

TL;DR bogging things down with an unnecessary D6 mechanic, the old Null Charges sub-rule was perfectly fine, and changes regarding the nature of Null Charges and their use with Null Powers should be instead moved to under Null Powers or the Silencer unit entry.

TL;DRT TL:DR streamlining Remoon101 (talk) 00:06, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Let me add more in direct reply #2 about the D6 Null Charges, we don't have the fluff to back it up. We don't access the Empyrean/Warp. Silencers rely for the most part on their own aura, and honestly it's still unclear in fluff if they should even be allowed to use the null aura generated by their comrades. It may not be a broken mechanic but Empyrean Anathema as a whole should not be the defining part of the Knights Inductor. And look, even if we take out the Inverted Soul, we still get those D6 Warp Charges to use to deny or power regular psychic powers. So what about Silencers interacting with those?...

For #3, Silencers are not set up to use Warp Charges because they shouldn't, what a surprise. I feel like they're pretty unique with their interaction with the current Null Charges generation mechanic and the fact that they're freaking super-blanks. It's awesome. And we can still use those D6 Warp Charges to deny normally, or be used by Librarians if we include them. Look, those D6 Warp Charges can be used by literally anybody to deny, even armies without a single psyker. For me I see no problem if we have a mix of those and Null Charges even with a Silencer in the army, because the original Null Charges sub-rule limited their interaction to Null Charges only already. Not to mention they don't have psychic hoods and their units are immune to psyker powers already. There is very little to no interaction with Warp Charges for Silencers.

Coming again back to Streamlining, I really, really don't think we need to add a specific D6 generation mechanic to "help" Silencers, who already benefit from Null Charge generation from the rest of the army. It clogs up the rule, and I see it as a problem when the sub-rule is bigger than the main rule that it is clarifying or adding onto. Knights Inductor are unique not just because we have Warp resistance and Silencers, but also because of the other things like experimental tech and suppression-oriented wargear/rules. Remoon101 (talk) 00:18, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Remoon, the way that the Null Charges thing is set up is fine. Would you call the Grey Knights broken because they can access charges from their army while also getting the D6? It's the same here - the charges generated by the army are the norm and so is the D6. Both of them are core elements of it. Think of the Knights as Grey Knights without the ability to use any powers themselves, only through the silencers (which is what tends to happen with Grey Knights with Librarians anyways). The calculations that Evilexecutive has been making actually include the D6 in the calculation, rounding to 3.5, as I discovered when I crunched the numbers myself. His numbers add up nicely, weakening the powers any further or weakening the ability of Silencers to access their powers by limiting Null Charges is something that will unbalance Silencers - in the wrong direction, weakening them significantly.

The way that Evil set things up seems to be a case of streamlining in making the Silencers more like Librarians with their own tree, making the Knights themselves similar to Brotherhood of Psykers that have no powers themselves and is actually a good bit weaker due to only a chance of getting the charges once casualties rack up. Think of Empyrean Anathema as a weaker version of Brotherhood of Psykers without any powers and a random chance and then you can see the reasoning behind the setup that was present. It also explains the other rules. I agree with you that Inverted Soul is a bit wordy, but it needs to be in order to eliminate any RAW issues - without it, confusion reigns supreme, something the Knights set out to eliminate in the first place.

If you still insist on changing things because you feel that Empyrean Anathema is becoming too big, I have one last thing to say. Look at the Pacification Detachment. You want a Silencer/Librarian? You better pay out the nose for them because you need a Captain first and one of the Base Formations. It prevents people from just spamming them and reduces their importance. Ever since I developed the Pacification Detachment to the point it is now, I have played a couple of games using the Knight's rules. Of the 4, only 1 even saw a silencer take the field and that was against Grey Knights - since the Silencers are anti psykers, that seemed fitting. So, they really aren't becoming too much of the focus of the army, just look at what the Pacification Detachment encourages - lots and lots of fancy gear and suppression tactics. Sorry for the long point - Mirmidion43

Mirm's right about me using the D6 for factoring into my Null Charges calculations. As far as I'm concerned, Empyrean Anathema was a bit of a mess when it came to the game. It essentially worked on completely changing the rules of the psychic phase, but then left out a HUGE number of parts missing when it comes to RAW. Like for example in various situations that resolve out of Team-games.

Say I have 4 people playing a game, of 2v2. One of them is Chaos and Orks, the other is Knights Inductor and Eldar. Without Inverted Soul, you have the awkward situation of what the hell the D6 during your psychic phase does, when there's two farseers and two silencers on the same "team". Under Inverted Soul's RAW, you decide which charges are made for your army, instead of it being a team issue where you have no clue if you have null charges or warp charges. I've had games where this problem arose, and me and the other player(A guy whose been playing the game for almost 15 years) had to figure out a method that worked well enough, but it was messy due to the lack of key RAW.

The most important factor of this is that Null Charges can't be used by Psykers, and Warp Charges can't be used by silencers. In team games, you'll often have both appearing on the same side of the table. The current RAW I've put in for Inverted Soul is intended to massively shorten the psychic phase arguements. The D6 is rolled, and you make charges based on what your army contains, that's as simple as the situation can be resolved. -Evilexecutive

I have taken your words into consideration and understand the spirit of the rule and clarification you're trying to include. I've gone ahead and streamlined Empyrean Anathema and Inverted Souls (now Inverse Souls, sounds better) to say the same thing with less words and in a more logical fashion. Remoon101 (talk) 22:11, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Just a thing about Empyrean Anathema and Independent Characters; do they generate a charge by themselves on a 4+ or do they just count towards the squad 10 man count for a guaranteed charge? It isn't clear.

Yea, on my math Independent characters roll a 4+ on their own for charges, and that's a key factor of my numbers. Though you're right that it isn't clear enough. Good god, all of the nuances to Empyrean Anathema at this point need their own FAQ.

New Silencer Power? - Dispel

After playing several seventh edition games getting back into (both with the vanilla Space Marines codex and the Knights Inductor) I've noticed that a lot of favored psychic powers tend to be Blessings. I also feel like one or two of our own powers are a little bland and repetitive (dealing with morale).

So I was thinking: what about a 1-2 Null Charge Power that actively cancels out a Blessing on an enemy unit? It certainly makes sense within the context of blanks and their interactions with Psykers and Psyker powers in canon. It could also be interesting if we made it so that you'd have the ability to essentially deny a power in your own Psychic phase. Possibly balanced through a short range, if we allow it cancel all Blessings on a unit.

I think this could be a nice addition to a power or a replacement for one of the more repetitive/underwhelming Morale-related powers. One problem I could see though is that if it's the one effect alone it would be useless against an army without any Psykers casting Blessings on their own units. What do you guys think?Remoon101 (talk) 02:48, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

The morale related powers aren't necessarily underwhelming at all. As Mirm has put it in me and his discussions, actively sabotaging your opponent's morale is brutal in cases where you optimize your army for pinning tests, and it's also quite fatal against Psykers who are dependent on their morale for surviving perils. However, I do like the idea of a Dispel power, and would suggest replacing Warp Void with it. Warp Void is the primary 'meh' power in the codex, regardless of it's range. Making Psykers manifest powers on higher numbers is odd, when you already have to be close enough to a silencers "Fuck psykers" bubble to do it, especially considering that psychic powers already auto-fail when targeting a squad with a silencer in it. I've personally had a few large-battles where the game's psychic phase was decided by the roving bands of Silencers, one in a Land Raider Crusader(Allied SM Detachment), and one in a Rhino, enjoying the fact that their bubble applies from the model edge.... Of a land raider...

So for Dispel, I would say something along the lines of. Warp Charges 2: Witchfire. Target an enemy unit within 18", if this power successfully manifests, all ongoing blessings affecting the unit immediately end. If no blessings are removed, then the squad must immediately take a pinning test as the void hunts for their minds instead.

Having potentially useless powers is something psykers had lived for a long time - Foreboding for example is useless against armies without dedicated melee units, biomancy self-buffing powers are usless on the infantry psykers, some powers, like hallucination or haemorrage are flat out useless for their warp-charge cost and perils risk. So it's OK for the Silencers to have a situational power that don't do shit against psykerless armies. After all, it's why you have Primaris power.Mezmerro (talk) 07:22, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Sternguard/Silent Hand Veterans - Xavier Notes

7th Edition rolls around, and 2 months later I start playing Warhammer 40k when I inherited a set of Knights Inductor marines from someone. I've decided now that I might as well get involved with helping balance out this codex and keep it closer in line with the standard game. Howdy guys, I'm Evilexecutive. I hate cheese, and love good clean, balanced fun!

Anyway, in the 7e standard space marine codex, Sternguard Veterans have a special rule called Specialty Ammunition, which allows them to choose from a table of special ammo types during each shooting phase. I noticed that this wasn't a part of the KI Sternguards, and so I might suggest adding a table to the armory for them to use. It wouldn't be the full table, probably something more in line with what ammo types the KI have access to. So for example we might have.

- Kraken Bolts, AP 4 +6"
- Stunner Bolts, AP- Blind
- Flechette Bolts, AP- Poisoned 2+ (Pretty much a reskin of Hellfire Rounds)

As for Captain Xavier, I kinda noticed something a little odd. He's apparently listed as having Mandate(A Specialist Weapon Artifact), a Bolt Pistol, and a Power Sword. According to this, he is currently cheating one of the game's unspoken rules by having 3 weapons. Now, I'm not sure what to make of it, but mandate is roughly equivalent to The Primarchs Wrath in C:SM, maybe about 40 points in value if I'd estimate. But a Power Sword is about 15 whole points. With all of the USM this bad motherfucker has, adding the power sword is a little much for a 165 point model.

I generally consider him to be a dedicated ranged captain, which is an interesting and highly fun concept to play with. Both fluff and crunchwise he's a Sternguard Captain, so he shouldn't be prepared for melee combat. I'd suggest getting rid of the Power Sword; it's borderline illegal, and replacing at least one of his USR's with Specialty Ammunition to bring him more in line with the actual Sternguard members that he leads in the fluff. At least with that he'll have a pretty sizable weakness, and many players would try to keep him far away from enemy melee to compensate for his weakness in that area.

Take out the bolt pistol, leave the power sword. I felt that a Captain/Dedicated Necron-Hunter definitely needed some CC cutting power to fit the hunter role, and forgot about the 2-weapon limit. I would prefer to leave the power sword intact. Increase the points cost marginally if you wish. As for adding specialized ammo, I'm against that, as I originally designed Mandate to basically be superior to special ammo and have him not rely on it at all. The general fluff idea being that he fashions his own ammo for the gun for use against creatures and beings that could shrug off even specialized ammo. That and his gun is meant to be matched w/ Silent-Hand veteran Stalker bolters/sniper rifle scouts. Oh, and thanks for helping out around here, I have not been in 40k for a while and am just getting back. Remoon101 (talk) 23:23, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

For future reference, there is no rule for limits on weapons artifacts aside from the ones in stone: one weapon swapped out for one artifact, not to mention there are plenty of characters in the game that have two+ artifact weapons with other mundane weapons thrown in (abaddon is one that comes to mind). I'm not adding back in the bolt pistol because of this but this is just for future reference. It's not impossible to have two artifact weapons on a generic SM HQ either. Remoon101 (talk) 23:52, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Silencer Power Negation Aura modified

So I had this idea recently but it's drastic enough that it deserves discussion before making any preliminary changes. I was thinking that Blessings and Maledictions both should be negated when a Silencer is close up enough, and not just a special property to Rachnus as in canon writing, blanks have been known to completely negate any blessings or protections that witches or daemons may be receiving when sufficiently close.

So Silencers would have: The Silencer and any unit within X" (where X is the Mastery level of the Silencer) can't be affected by any psychic powers in any way, including enemy units under the effects of Maledictions or Blessings. All psykers and daemons within 6" of a Silencer has their Leadership reduced by 2

Hrm, for 150 points, having a 3" aura of "Your powers stop working", doesn't seem like a fun idea except in melee. I would probably have it as something like (2)x" or (3)x" the Silencer's mastery level. Still requires you're in melee range, though 3x seems a little broken. Then again, Hilarious rules issues means this deals with units, so if even a single unit in the squad's in the aura, the whole squad loses it. Evilexecutive (talk) 20:56, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Either the above or: The Silencer and any unit within 1"/2", etc.... (either one of those two values). I believe this would make the Silencers more fluffy as it stands to reason that the Warp literally just peters out the closer you get to a Silencer. And being right on top of one should make it impossible for a caster to get anything off with the extremely massive headache they'll be having with the Null Aura.

I want to avoid making this too broken (giving multiple units power immunity by standing close enough like Rachnus). But I think it would add another element to strategic thinking, with Silencers being a high priority target, but Silencers still needing to be up and close in order to be 100% effective. If we do implement this change in some way, we can maybe give the Silencer a slight increase in points cost to compensate for this slight extra utility (maybe +10pts). Remoon101 (talk) 20:18, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I think we should give this a few weeks to cool off and discuss changes towards Silencers. 7th Edition Marines Codex scans are now up on /tg/, and it's pretty much shaping up as Codex: SCOUT MARINES, for 70 pts you get WS4, BS4 Snipers with Camo Cloaks, that can rend squads/monstrous creatures to death, and are hilariously spammy. Evilexecutive (talk) 20:56, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Did no one read the notice at the top of the page? In any case, that's why I presented the flat 1"/2" option, because I figured the X" would get some flak but I threw it out there as well just in case. And Silencers are supposed to be a big FU to Psykers and Daemons up close, it's the whole point and getting them there is a tactical/strategic consideration in game. I'm also considering melee range as an alternative. Remoon101 (talk) 20:47, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I think it should just be melee range, rather than micro-aura. Given a current tendency for making KIs into static gunlines we may see multiple units building "tails" to touch that 3" aura with only one model, and suddenly half of your army is immune to psy powers. Mezmerro (talk) 21:24, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

ATSKNF, gene-seed flaw, and general grimdarkifying of the fluff

So, Knight Inductors have mutated Cataleptic Node, that makes them incompatible or at least very resistant to standard marine brainwashing procedures. Said brainwashing is the reason behind loyalists having their ATSKNF - Chaos Marines have none because they either never undergone that procedure (old legionaries and Chaos-born) or managed to overcome their hypo-indoctrination programming and broke free from it's shackles (renegades).

So, maybe KIs need something less potent instead of ATSKNF, since they're still human in mind? Like the rule that only allows them to always regroup on full Ld 30k-legions style. Not like it's going to influence their play style much, since ATSKNF is mostly useful in close combat, KI's actively avoid, and could actually allow for a slight points decrease. Mezmerro (talk) 06:54, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

We had a look at this when we debated whether we should give Librarians ATSKNF since they are entirely unaugmented. I can't remember the exact reason why, but we decided that with the correct type of therapies and training, even unaugmented humans could attain the ATSKNF state, hence librarians and Zecharius having ATSKNF. Therefore it entirely stands to logic that the rest of the chapter, who have far augmentation than the librarians, would be able to have ATSKNF, even with the Cataleptic Node being deficient. Mirmidion43 (talk) 09:43, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, it was actually my point. But I seem to have missed the fact that KIs aren't trying to brainwash their marines, preferring to remain more "human". Sp you definitely can indoctrinate even unaugmented human to Know No Fear, IF you commit to it, but KI's don't. As far as I can tell it's a part of their "noblebright good guys" shtick. Also, GW had previously gave some of the Cursed Founding chapters no ATSKNF treatment, so not like it's something unique. Mezmerro (talk) 09:56, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

As far as the fluffwise is concerned, Knights are still Astartes. As a consequence, they can never -truly- be human. They've already left humanity behind simply by becoming space marines. They're very chill, calm, and are emotionally detached from many things going on around them, like a chapter full of introverts. Humans can't empathize with them, and the Knights can't empathize with humans either for this reason. While they don't have the traditional indoctrination, one could argue pretty well that the Null-Geneseed indoctrinated them itself, from the moment they were implanted with it and had parts of their souls stripped away.Evilexecutive (talk) 18:03, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

One of the things that Exec especially wants to change is making the Knights a little more grim. Play up the Warp Technology Workshop, maybe some darker aspects to the Silencers, more disruption by the Xenos (especially Eldar) and the Knights "doing the grim necessity" at times. Personally I have some writing planned and beginning to take shape around Ghost and I plan to include some pretty dark smashing and corruption. This could be one of the Darker aspects of the Knights. Also, their 21st founding problem has already been a thing - lack of aggression. Mirmidion43 (talk) 10:02, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Look, it's actually a pretty bad idea to make the knights too far from Space Marines in both crunch and fluff, and removing/changing ATSKNF is a step in the wrong direction entirely. We should keep it to a minimum of difference, and ensure that the Knights Fluff remains plausible within the setting. So far, the key differences are outlined as such:

> No Frag grenades standard, which cripples knights on the offense in melee
> Empyrean Anathema: An Army-wide rule that's part of an expanded Chapter Tactics, increases points cost across the board.
> Unique Units: Silent Hands, Marine Snipers and Necron Hunters. Marauders. Paladins. 
> Experimental Organization Slot. The army starts with only one slot, and unique wargear/units take up a slot. 

And for the record, Mirm is actually right when he mentions that I want to make Knights more grimdark to suit the setting. I firmly believe that Knights Should go the way that Tau did in the fluff. They started off Noblebright, but then the veil is slowly peeled away with time to show that the Noblebright aspects are hollow and simply don't work. Things like DIRE consequences for Silencers in the form of the Null Knights, attempts to capture enemies like genestealers taking too long, and thus causing far more casualties than necessary, only to find rehabilitation doesn't work on them. Evilexecutive (talk) 17:59, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

You can probably abandon their lost primarch / angry marines heritage, if you're going for the fluff overhaul. That par is VERY over the top, and makes them too out of place. I mean, current fluff already established that lost primarchs where killed and their legions either get absorbed by smurfs or where destroyed too, and their gene-seed get stolen by smurfs. Maybe turn that into their legend that is actually false, and in truth they turned to be another Ultramatine successors whose gene-seed get fucked up by AdMechs during the cursed founding. Mezmerro (talk) 06:22, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

I'd rather not go down the Smurf line just now. There's enough crying of Mary Sue that I'd rather not add any residual stigma of the Wardex. Mirmidion43 (talk) 08:07, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

KI's empire-building and caring for after-combat consequences, rather then only winning a war actually fits into Ultramarine MO very well. If anything, you can make them into chimeric chapter made with a mix of different gene-seeds like Minotaurs.

And besides smurf-hatred train is long gone with newest codexes and books portraying them rather likable yet still flawed like anyone else, with some people in-universe despising them for caring about their worlds more than the rest of the Imperium (much like KIs), and for taking Codex too seriously (or not seriously enough in case of nutters like the Red Scorpions and Fists of Dorn). It's actually a good point to un-MarrySue KIs in the same way by adding more flaws and conflicts with other "good guys". Mezmerro (talk) 08:35, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Codex Overhaul Version III

Hey guys I'm back! And I have the codex-writing hankering again, in that I wanted to make another codex based off a tactical silencer-less Knights Inductor, but felt the ideas that I was coming up with would be better served by integrating them with the Knights Inductor. I have some major changes that I'd like to propose if anyone else is still around.

1. No Empyrean Anathema. All baseline units are no longer mini-nulls and do not generate null charges either. This would instead by reduced to Adamantium Will to be tied into Indomitable Spirit which will also be redone. A Knight Inductor army can no longer instantly deny on a 5+ across the entire table, but still thematically have Chaos resistance without being nulls. Fluff-wise, they show an inherent resistance to Chaos but have absolutely no null potential while still violently rejecting the Psychic gene. Yes this means we lose a lot of natural resilience, and you'll have to take Silencers to compensate, but costs will go down in general.

2. Indomitable Spirit will be redone to be simpler. 25% regroup is still in. The pseudo-Stubborn will be replaced outright by full Stubborn. Adamantium Will is put here from Empyrean Anathema. The Convictus Oath clause, despite how cool it sounds, is REMOVED. Any unit that would've given And They Shall Know No Fear will have ATSKNF. This reduces the baggage on the rule, which was somewhat of a problem with the Knights Inductor.

3. The Unseen is replaced by Suppression Tactics, which will work in basically the same way. Except Pinning is given to KI units within 1" of cover, and the +1 BS bonus works the same way against Pinning-immune units. In addition, I might put in place a rule or clause to boost Blinding, Strike-down and Concussive weapons as those fit right in with the Knights' lethal but limiting fighting style.

4. Silencers ARE STILL IN. They are the only ones in which the null gene is made apparent, either destroying the recipients' soul to create one or in extremely rare cases, enhancing a natural null's abilities. They will still have their full array of powers but they won't use Null Charges. Instead they'll use adsorbed Warp Charges (think of the Psyocculum thing from the Culexus) and have more severe penalties to enemy generation of warp charges. They'll be Space Marine Culexus if that makes any sense. Their powers may be modified to accommodate the fact that there'll be less charges to go around when facing a psyker-less army.

5. Reduction of squad-cap to 12 men to a squad. This argument has been made in the past and will be implemented. Probably will still have the ability to split into either two 6-man or three 4-man squads. This will limit shenanigans in kill points as has been mentioned before.

6. Squad issue wargear costs redone. No more blanket upgrades. Stun bolts will cost 2pts per man. Flash bolts 1pt, etc.

7. New tactical wargear, I'm thinking of a more powerful blind grenade launcher, or a buff to having multiple squads firing on a single target with suppressive gear. Also have an idea for a las-gun attachment tracer unit to boost BS. Flash bolts may also be reworked.

8. Shock weapons will probably be implemented as well as maybe standard wargear. No Shock Dagger. Just Batons and Mauls. Will either given bonus hits ala Mechanicus. Or possibly a bonus AP - wound w/ Haywire on a 6 to wound.

[NEW FLUFF] I wanted to propose a new major fluff piece as well. In essence, the Inquisition basically sends the KI to the roughest Chaos infestations that they would not risk sending Grey Knights to in order to clear it or soften it up for the GK to do their jobs. They are given a major task to defeat a Daemon Prince and cleanse a world of Chaos infestation, ultimately succeeding at the cost of nearly half the Chapter. This earns the Chapter's ability to remain in somewhat good stead with the Imperium as long as they send out these Chaos Nullification task forces at the Ordos Malleus' behest. Simply because they are more expendable than Grey Knights, and that without a good voucher their heretical practices and beliefs would brand them traitors. This is aside from the Mechanicus essentially cutting all ties to the KI.

More ideas may be flowing in but I'll be trying to implement these as soon as possible. Remoon101 (talk) 18:18, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

• Okay, so if we're going to go ahead with Inquisitorial Operators, I would certainly recommend going with the idea of focus on small teams of operators with specialist gear that's similar to the things that Deathwatch uses. Taking a note from Kill-Teams, they should have access to a lot of one-use only squad issue wargear. I'm thinking stuff like "Extra Ammo Pouches" which let you reroll 1s for a single shooting phase, and are on the dirt cheap(1 point per model). As opposed to paying for the more expensive Laser Auto-Assists(Side mounted lasguns), which let you reroll 1s all game for a higher cost.

There should also be one-use only Underbarrel grenade launchers. So the squad can fire a volley of grenades once per game at increased range. It should probably be around 15", and can utilize more grenade options if they take them.Evilexecutive (talk) 19:52, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

• Having just Adamantium Will also has a decent fluff standpoint. Because the Inquisition already brainwashes their operators to be more resistant to the effects of Chaos. Their Red Hunters in particular have Adamantium Will in their chapter tactics, so why not Knights Inductor having it for the same reason?

I would also just outright remove the general 'null gene', and have it as a genetic predisposition to increased compatibility with natural pariahs. That's where the Silencer Unit should come from. Evilexecutive (talk) 19:55, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

Changes So Far:

• Removed Convictus Oath, added ATSKNF to relevant units. Reworked Indomitable Spirit to have Adamantium Will and Stubborn
• Reduced Fire-Team squad cap to 12 and changed wording to suit. Still need to edit actual entries.
• Changed The Unseen to Suppression Tactics. Edited wording for when a unit gains pinning. Reworked it to give two bonuses to suppressive shooting so far.
• Removed Empyrean Anathema, Inverse Souls and Apart in Spirit, Apart in Body.
• Removed Pinning from Mark-sense and kept Precision Shooting in.
• Removed the relatively useless Flechette Needlers
• Changed Shock Knuckles to Digital Weapons
• Changed Electro-Shackles to be automatically removed once out of combat instead of a complicated bonus to the Strength test. Also in the same vein they no longer prevent Shooting.
• Removed Concussive from Seismic Charges
• Changed Null Weapons to always count as activated against Psykers and Daemons
• Changed pricing in the existing Squad Issue Wargear section to a per model basis, this is certainly subject to future changes.
• Hot-fixed Silencers to use Absorbed Warp Charges and Psyker levels to power Null abilities. More refining on this will be done in the future. Also added some fluff.

• • • Welp, disregard most of the above. I've just reverted the major changes but kept in some small balancing changes like the 12man squad cap. Remoon101 (talk) 16:50, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Notes on current codex-tinkering

Major Special Rule Changes

• Removed Convictus Oath, added ATSKNF to relevant units. Reworked Indomitable Spirit to have Knights Inductor auto-regroup when within 12" of a friendly KI unit as well as having full stubborn. I feel like this change really works because the KI tend to work in a supporting fashion with each other, so if you "catch" a fleeing unit that's in enemy range or under-strength they'll automatically link up with their comrades. But if they're alone, they'll keep retreating in an attempt to link up with allies or to regroup off the battlefield.
  • After some debate, I've reverted it to normal Indomitable Spirit with some Convictus Oath wording for ATSKNF models joining the unit. No auto-regrouping and no full Stubborn.
• Reduced Fire-Team squad cap to 12 and changed wording to suit. Edited unit caps in the relevant entries.
• Edited wording for when a unit gains pinning. Still the same deal with The Unseen
• Removed Apart in Spirit, Apart in Body. You can take Psykers if you'd want to, though there'll be terrible synergy. I just didn't see a need for a rule preventing it.
  • Might bring this back in if it creates wording problems
• Edited Empyrean Anathema to give Null Charges with 3 models, Dreadnoughts give one each and no additional charges for under-strength units. Trying to nerf the rule a bit. And we may see a points increase across the board by around 1 or 2pts again to account for EA. The lack of ATSKNF isn't enough to justify having the same price as regular Space Marines.

Major Wargear Changes

• Removed Pinning from Mark-sense and kept Precision Shooting in.
• Removed the relatively useless Flechette Needlers
• Changed Shock Knuckles to Digital Weapons
• Changed Electro-Shackles to be automatically removed once out of combat instead of a complicated bonus to the Strength test. Also in the same vein they no longer prevent Shooting.
• Removed Concussive from Seismic Charges
• Removed Rending from the Astartes Anti-Materiel Rifle, and bumped up its Strength value by 1. Also increased the cost to take it.
• Changed Null Weapons to always count as activated against Psykers and Daemons
• Grouped all alternative ammo together. Modified Flash bolts to be much more effective en masse with a range penalty and price increase.
• Changed pricing in the existing Squad Issue Wargear section to a per model basis, this is certainly subject to future changes.
• Redacted Luxgun/Hot-shot editing after some brief number crunching. In addition to being wildly less effective against MEQ targets, it also presents unnecessary technology advancement fluff-wise.
• Removed the Advanced Vehicle Wargear section and related entries, moving IWND and Invuls to Experimental Vehicle Wargear.
  • It's a bit messy and complicated, the major wargear that is at fault is the Invul, though it is not super-effective by itself, in combination with repairs and other wargear it becomes dangerous.
• Added wording to Null-Amp to say it doesn't stack
• Added the LAM Unit Wargear to squad issue wargear

Regular Character Changes

• Removed the Iron Halo from the Marauder Field Master, kept him the same price. Changed multi-meltas to cost 5pts each.
• Under Techmarines, changed GAC to be an artillery platform similar to Tech Maestro Gajet's and bumped up the upgrade cost
• Harking back to v2.0, Librarians no longer have Galvanzing Presence and instead have Stubborn. They also don't have Indomitable Spirit, but they'll benefit from being in a unit with it. I think.

Special Character Changes

• Under Garven Brias, changed Suppressors as Troops to Suppressors having Objective secured.
• Increased Captain Xavion points cost, changed Warlord special rule to an extreme cover save bonus (may need to increase cost further), and changed his servo-skull to work at 18" range w/o auspex wording.
• Increased Captain Darren points cost, added Warlord special rule to represent his hidden hand that he always keeps in case negotiations fail or to represent his surgical "beheading" tactics. Also gave him a Teleport homer.
  • Further edited his new ability and nerfed it so it's still useful but not game-breaking
• Reduced Isaac Rico cost, changed Fleet bonus to Furious Charge. Also added Furious Charge to him. Got rid of the defunct Overwhelming Charge rule and replaced it with Blade of Experience. His jump is now optional to take, allowing him to join Incursion squads without packs more easily.
  • May need to increase the cost on him
• Under Tech Maestro Gajet, changed his GAC Lance Platform to be in line with the Techmarine changes and removed superfluous wording

Things I'm Noticing....

• I'm starting to think removing EA and putting in Adamantium Will might be the better choice after all. I hesitated to do so since pdf-ication was brought up, but balancing problems are inherent everywhere along with improper rules wordings cropping as I have others go through the 'dex. I'm going to really have to mull it over, but I'm leaning towards reworking that entirely to get away from being too much like we're trying to be two armies at once.
  • I have removed Adamantium Will and put back in the Null Charge mechanic. The Dreadnought-specific clause has been moved to a special rule on the Dreadnought. A KI army always generates Warp Charges, but it can only turn them into Null Charges if a Silencer is present. So a Silencer-less army will have both the generated Warp Charges and Null Charges to deny with.
    • Scrap the above, AW is still in and null charge mechanic is out for good here it seems.
• With the removal of Empyrean Anathema I managed to streamline the number of army rules the codex had (from four! to three) while reducing the amount of rolling and tracking needed in the Psychic Phase. Of course while I added Adamantium Will to compensate, this still negatively affected Silencers' overall power level
  • To compensate I've been looking at ways to add Null Charge sources. They can generate from all Psykers in an area, as well as now some pieces of wargear (Psi-Suppressor Pylon and Null-Amp). Rachnus has also been slightly buffed since he relies on having a large supply of Null Charges with which to throw powers around at his exorbitant cost.
• With the inclusion of LAM Units, they (in a good way) encourage a more aggressive play style with forward and deep striking units. This will hopefully lead to a more balanced internal meta that becomes a viable but not overpowered alternative to a gunline.
  • Note that even with scary assault units like Assault Terminators you definitely want a ATSKNF character in there to help support them.
• With the recent points increase across the board and to some critical pieces of wargear, formations become more necessary to have the Knights be fully competitive. I've been thinking that the formations should not be integral to internal balance, but they should be used to elevate the Knight's strength to the top armies, while a basic CAD KI army should be semi-competitive and fun to play against lower tier codicies and army compositions.
  • That being said, I have been busily nerfing many of the formations so that they're more reasonable. I am adverse to making them require a ridiculous amount of models for certain benefits, but I feel like the more restrictive they are, the more benefits they should have.
• The removal of Pinning and an increase in points cost for Mark-sense really helped to balance their Pinning shenanigans as you'll actually have to stick to cover or buy Pinning weapons to use Suppression Tactics instead of buying cheap Mark-sense and having it out in the open.
• While trying to make diverse army lists, I realized that most things in the codex are pretty strong and useful in their own regard, especially with certain key upgrades like the Aceso. While this is not necessarily bad since everything's gotten more expensive, this may be a concern for future balancing.

Overhaul 3.5

I said earlier that I was satisfied with the current level of the codex. It functions well at two different power levels, has interesting options compared to the vanilla Space Marines codex, and isn't overpowered on a dumb scale (with parts being underpowered). With the playtest record being at 5 Wins and 6 Losses, I find this to be acceptable. However, players will always be bitches about their opponent if they're losing and I feel like the Knights Inductor could use another shakedown in their balance.

I will be implementing some more major changes to lower the first power level (CAD, no Pacification Detachment) to around the level of Chaos Space Marines and Dark Eldar hopefully. I want to do this while still giving the KI the tools to fight at and a little above this level, but mainly make it challenging to work with. A challenging army is more fun than one you can stomp with the right combinations. I'll obviously keep in the Formations and Pacification Detachment so that you can fight at equal grounds with much more higher tier codicies and army compositions.

Despite complaints and compliments about balance, I still feel like the current incarnation of the codex just -works- the way it's supposed to in its core mechanics and overarching special rules. It feels like this is how Knights Inductor is supposed to work, with an understated resistance to Chaos and their underhanded stealthy tactics going hand in hand with a slew of unique wargear.

TL;DR Nerfs incoming, major changes incoming

Remoon101 (talk) 01:06, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

The major nerf ended up being to Leadership all across the board, with the only Ld10 Character being Zakis Randi. This does have fluff backing it up with the lack of indoctrination as well as inexperience compared to other Space Marines. This also helps to balance out the free Sergeants in the codex and other quirks. The addition of the Attrition Objective is meant to make the Knights Inductor purposely difficult to play and to make the most of their wargear and abilities. Finally, I think I've finally grasped and gotten to the root of the balance problems and major complaints by raising the prices of some critical wargear in the armory, namely the Shock weaponry and Bolt Ammo. After going through many revisions of Shock weaponry and finding no easy way to make them effective against a variety enemies without going overboard and being undercosted, I decided to just follow precedent and have them use the Tesla rule of two hits per 6 rolled. Some numbers crunching confirms that this best fits their current points cost instead of handing out free Haywire. Along with the recent increases in points cost of squad issue wargear, choices in terms of what wargear to use have become more varied and valid it seems, and I think true balance is almost certainly at hand. Remoon101 (talk) 00:25, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Remember what I said earlier, about there being too much wargear. It might be a good idea to combine some of the pieces together or get rid of the ones that seem to be used the least. Same about making Silencers a specialized discipline of psychic powers to cut down on rules bloat. --Newerfag (talk) 02:00, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

I really do feel like we could get rid of the Predator Avalon, and Maxima Marauder. They don't really feel like they fill a niche that the Knights need, that doesn't also violate the niches filled by other existing armies. If you really, really feel like getting a experimental level tank, you should be taking an allied detachment of Space Marines, and just grabbing your choice of either a Sicaran or a Fellblade.

And the same really goes for the Marauder. Why have the whole deal with Knights being Desperate Allies, when you just have a Lord of War slot that lets you take knights anyway, and even worse.. Taking better knights? Evil Executive, CEO of Evil Incorporated (talk) 03:17, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Overhaul 3.9.5

Recent Major Changes

• Redone pricing for mobilius artillery (costs more, especially for Charybdis). Servitors cost more for having a boltgun and no Mind-lock. Added a new type of air-drop artillery, the Scylla Pack Bombard.
• Revamped Marauders. After a long discussion, it was decided that the Marauders needed a nerf. They are longer slow (-1" penalty gone), but their armor save is now 3+ (Ghost Sergeant and Field Master still at a 2+). They also do not get weapons, they have to be bought (mandatory), with redone pricing based on volume of fire. Also added Dreadnought Close Combat weapons, so you can swing a powerfist at initiative like in the vanilla marine codex. Expect pricing to evolve as necessary.
• Specialized ammo all bundled up. After a crap ton of revision, all of the bolt ammo was balanced at the final price point of 3pts per model in terms of effectiveness. I've increased the cost and now you can have Sternguard-level flexibility being able to use all three types of ammo. The flexibility may be strong, but the ammo itself isn't OP along with the increased price. This will make tracking which squad has which ammo unnecessary, which will be easier for gameplay.
• I've really been flip-flopping over this, but I've brought back the price down to normal Space Marine standards again where applicable, while keeping the -1Ld across the board. This means that Knights are still worse point-for-point but you won't be hamstrung by a lack of points to buy wargear for no reason.
• At this point, I'm still not sure if the Inquisitorial Objective is still necessary, and if it is, how hard it needs to be. I'd rather much have the codex itself be balanced without the need for an obligatory objective, but I'll be keeping this in for now. Remoon101 (talk) 18:56, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Overhaul 3.9.7

• Removed Digital Weapons from the codex. Pretty useless piece of wargear for Knights Inductor and cuts a little bit of excess from the armory.
• Lowered Specialized Bolt Ammunition to 3pts per model. 3pts is the current true value of the ammo, and it's not like you're firing multiple types at the same time.
• Moved the Silencer's passive ability to the primaris, with the Perils/Instability made into an active power in the primaris. The Negative Warp Blast has been moved to the Animus Diadem wargear.

Perspectives

I'm adding this here more for my own benefit. Remoon101 (talk) 02:39, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

From Codex: Adeptus Astartes for 14pts a Tactical Marine gets:

• 3+ armor save
• Frag and Krak grenades
• Boltgun, Bolt pistol
• ATSKNF
• Chapter Tactics, a two component rule benefiting the model/vehicle it rides in/wargear
• Combat squads

From Codex: Knights Inductor for 15pts a Tactical Knight gets:

• 3+ armor save, -1 Leadership
• Blind and Krak grenades (no Frag grenades standard except for assault units)
• Boltgun, Bolt pistol
• Stubborn on Fear and Regroup, Adamantium Will
• Suppression Tactics, Pinning when within cover and three special shooting attacks that modify BS
• Tactical Fire Teams (Combat squads equivalent)

Generally, from what I understand of the game, Empyrean Anathema is the main component of the Knights Inductor points increase. All of the wargear changes are purely a Force-Organisation deal. You can demonstrate this by looking at Devastators, which also cost 14 points but occupy a Heavy Support Slot. In exchange for this they get to carry more heavy weapons. With that in mind, Empyrean Anathema is a +2 point per model upgrade. -Evilexecutive

I do have a suggestion here, concerning balance issues with 24-man squads. If we aren't getting rid of 24-man squads, then perhaps we can change the wording of Fire Teams, so that squads numbering 13+ marines occupy 2 Force Org slots. It wouldn't matter in unbound, but it absolutely would be important for battleforged armies. -evilexecutive

There's a couple of small issues with that: firstly, it makes no difference since the idea of a FoC has more or less been removed in favour of everything being a formation (including the combined arms detachment of 1 HQ, 2 Troops and the usual extras, benefit is Objective Secured) and that it would be unfluffy to do that - the idea is that a single Knight squad is 24 guys and they deploy as such. If 6 squads take the field, that means 144 marines, not 72 or 60. I like the setup as it is and more pointless tweaking just seems irrelevant.

Adamantium will in this case is meant to be an iffy and highly situational bonus so that it's almost worth less than a point overall. Sort of like what the Grey Knights previously had with the Aegis, representing their small innate resistance to Chaos. I decided to nerf the FNP so I might be able to bring the overall cost for a Knight down to 18/19pts so they have breathing room to buy wargear like camo cloaks and such. I felt like the Knights shouldn't be able to modify their armor to the point that they have a mini Apothecary in there and more like a stopgap stabilizer so that the severely injured can survive to see a real apothecary. In the end I'm trying to move things from special rules to wargear options so that the Knights are more flexible overall in their choices. My goal is about 18pts for a Knight, using the above point by point comparison to get it there. Since we finally took out Kraken/Tempest bolts (as standard wargear at least) this may finally be possible. Remoon101 (talk) 15:16, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Seems legit. Perhaps have the option to upgrade to full FNP for 3-5 points? Which would be like they add some very nice drugs on top of the auto heal effect so the knight can keep going without a hand for much longer. --Bobthe6th (talk) 16:46, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't know if you guy see this but I want to lower the overall cost of Knights by -1pt to 15pts. The reason being that at the current state Knights are they don't get a whole lot more than most other Space Marines. They do deserve to be a little more expensive due to having psychic resistance, though I'm planning on nerfing Null Charges' DtW roll of 4+ because I think that's a little strong (remember, we still get the D6 Warp Charges each Psychic phase and get Null Charges on top of that). I also want them to be cheaper so that players will be able to purchase squad issue wargear more often, which was one of more fun parts of this army for me. That and players will also be able to buy more Knights in general getting more out of said wargear.

They get to have the choice of equipping themselves with Sternguard/Grey Knights level wargear while also having the option to remain bare to put points into other areas of the army as well. I've edited the comparison of a standard Knight to a standard Space Marine again for this discussion as well. Remoon101 (talk) 15:34, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

New Army Concept

Hey everybody who checks up on this codex occasionally! I have been giving much thought to what would make the Knights Inductor unique apart from all the other existing Chapters and perhaps even armies in general in terms of their "army concept" which is what adds the gaming flavor to the army. Blood Angels have Fast everywhere, BLOOD FOR THE EMPEROR and Assaults everywhere, Tau have ultra-weaksauce CC but godlike firepower, etc.

Reasonable marines/Knights Inductor are all about resolving situations peacefully when possible, and taking great care to minimize casualties when they are forced to take up arms. The closest I have got to the former are the rules and concept behind the Master of the Deal's entry, as it represents him just as negotiations are breaking down and he's still attempting to convince the enemy that there is no reason to fight, hence Ongoing Negotiations and why he doesn't have the Preemptive Strike special rule.

I tried make a Reasonable Force protocol rule a long time ago that limited what AP weapon you could shoot against X save or against armor, but it proved cumbersome when you had to add in the fact that they shouldn't have said limitations against no-holds-barred enemies like Tyranids.

In the end I have decided that the Knights Inductor army concept will be that based off of suppressing fire, limiting the enemy's kill potential and overwhelming assault/firepower to back those up. While the previous codex iteration went overboard on the last point I decided to go back and look at the other two and have decided that the Pinning, Concussive, Blind and perhaps even Strike Down special rules should be in a way core to the Knights. While they are not holding back, they still use the tools of their trade to lock down the enemy to prevent casualties on both sides when possible (sub-lethal as someone said).

If you see this, I would like to have your opinion on this army concept I have thought up of as I have already started moving in this direction and I see this as having a great potential to create a unique army based off of using these rules to their advantage. Remoon101 (talk) 01:40, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Issue... many armies ignore pining, concussive requires a multiple hit unit to matter, blind is nice but tau are largely immune. Strikedown seems the most reliable, with blind a close second. Pining would be much better if KI could strip fearless/stubborn... --Bobthe6th (talk) 02:05, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

For fluff, a vehicle- or Dreadnought-mounted piece of wargear that causes strikedown pieplates or to all models in base contact might be nifty. Maybe they got them from Arbites crowd-control vehicles.

Also, "Master of the Deal" sounds a bit goofy now that I think about it; "Magister Pactis" sounds a bit better to me. I'm pretty sure it's grammatically correct, but that's based on about 20 minutes of checking a Latin dictionary and the Wikipedia article about Latin declension, so if we have any Latin speakers, go for it. --Not LongPoster Again (talk) 20:02, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Additional theme for the KI, high precision and dedicated leadership elimination. A bolter that trades rapid fire for heavy 1 precision shots, better range and pinning. They had to learn to make do with their lower resources, making every shot count. Also, getting people to surrender is so much easier when the leaders head explodes. Perhaps have bolter sniper fire itself strip fearless? --Bobthe6th (talk) 02:05, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

That actually gives me an idea. Instead of -1Ld for weapons with Pinning (referring to the second half of the The Unseen special rule), how about it ignores the effect of Fearless for the purpose of Pinning tests? It'll negate the no Go To Ground clause as essentially the placement of the shots are just too much to ignore (they at some point don't fear death but fear the failure resulting from having their heads shot off?). That way I could avoid having to give weapons the "strips Fearless" rule and put it more towards the Knights' skill. It also wouldn't strip Fearless but just force them beyond fearlessness to drop to the floor (they'd pick themselves back up as soon as possible). Remoon101 (talk) 19:48, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

The issue I can foresee with having "this weapon strips/ignores special rule X" is that you then get rule-revision wars like "Ha, my army has special rule X", "Ha ha, my army ignores X", "Ha ha ha, my army has X and ignores rules that ignore X", and so on. GW took away the "ignores invulnerable saves" property from the Necrons' warscythes in the 5th-edition codex because the whole point of invulnerable saves is that they are invulnerable (except against strength-D weapons, I suppose). A unit that is "fearless" cannot be scared by anything -- if they get scared when their leader's head gets blown off, they're not fearless in the first place.

That said, you are correct that the sniping strategy will struggle against the fearless armies, so the Knights will need some heavy firepower to back it up (something that Space Marines are not lacking). --Not LongPoster Again (talk) 20:02, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Perhapce then a special rules to automatically distribute wounds on a fearless unit, or boost the die roll by 1(not the balistic skill, but the actual number on the dice.) and the weapon is instant death on a modified 7. The foe dosn't drop to the ground in response to sniper fire... and there is a reason you should. Because standing in lines marching forward under sniper fire has not been a good idea since the nepolianic wars and these are reasonable marines. --Bobthe6th (talk) 21:56, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

I have changed it for simplicity sake to deal an extra D3 Wounds (that are saveable) versus units immune to Pinning in general. I feel this is the simplest and best solution, since it represents the Knights taking advantage of the fact that the unit in question is too honorable/dumb to duck. Remember this is only for units that already have the Pinning special rule in some form, though I could make it so that it's for everyone. Remoon101 (talk) 23:40, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Just changed it so that units with the Pinning rule in general do this, whether from area terrain Pinning or just Pinning in general from weapons. Remoon101 (talk) 23:44, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

I would replace the last sentence of The Unseen with this one for clarity: "When a unit with this rule makes an attack with Pinning against a unit that is immune to Pinning, it inflicts an additional d3 wounds." "Units with Pinning, whether from this rule or a weapon" makes it sound like any KI unit with a Pinning weapon, even a unit that doesn't have The Unseen, would inflict those additional wounds against Fearless units. --Not LongPoster Again (talk) 00:04, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Ninj'as everywere... Alternate edit replace"Units with Pinning (whether from this rule or a weapon) inflict an additional D3 wounds to units immune to Pinning." with "Units with this special rule with Pinning (whether gained from this rule or a weapon) that make a shooting attack against a unit immune to Pinning inflict an additional D3 wounds." --Bobthe6th (talk) 00:08, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

I decided to use NotLongPosterAgain's iteration of the rule after checking it. On another note, I have added your idea for a "heavy sniper rifle", listed as the Astartes Anti-Materiel Rifle in the wargear table and list. Remoon101 (talk) 00:20, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Proposed changes for discussion

To keep the rest of the discussion section from getting cluttered, and to give a place for people's ideas that is not the main page. --Bobthe6th (talk) 07:44, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Bipod|weapons with this special rule can be fired normally while the model has gone to ground.

Aim: A model with this special rule that can chose not to shoot during the shooting phase. The next shooting attack they make with a weapon with the sniper special rule has the ignores cover and instant death special rules. Look out sir! checks can not be made by attacks with this special rule.

The unit takes a moment and lines up the shot. Gives the target a turn to break line of sight or destroy the unit, but a bolter round to the head will kill most anything. --Bobthe6th (talk) 00:00, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

I second this, too impractical for in-game use. Though I did have an idea of a super-potent stun gas (perhaps Torrent) template weapon that has recurring effects the rest of the game. Something like a poisoned template weapon or a non-killing weapon that has drastic negative effects. I'm interested in going in this direction with replacing the Torrent Redeemer since it fits the Knights and they usually don't prefer to burn their enemies in such a horrific way in the first place (portable flamers and heavy flamers notwithstanding). If anyone wants to chalk up a couple of ideas of a stun-gas template landraider weapon I'd like to see what you guys come up with. Worst case scenario it becomes a lame/awesome 3+ Torrent Poison Template weapon or something. Remoon101 (talk) 18:17, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

The knights had an issue. They wanted to be able to deliver a number of effective chemical weapons to the enemy, but standard methods were inefficient, barely better then flame throwers. So they took a page out of there parent chapters book(the angry marienes "smoke launchers") and modified smoke launchers to shoot specialized gas delivery systems at the enemy.

Name	Range	S	AP	type
Canister launcher	36"	3	-	Assault 1
Blind Gas	36"	3	-	Assault 1, Large Blast, Blind
Death Gas	36"	3	-	Assault 1, Large Blast, Poisoned(4+)
Stun Gas	36"	3	-	Assault 1, Large Blast, Pinning
Acidic Gas	36"	3	3	Assault 1, Blast, Poisoned(4+)

To visualize what happens, the launcher shoots a gas canister at an enemy, possibly hitting them in the face with it. Then the canister opens up and starts pouring out gas. Even nonlethal gas has a chance of causing an allergic reaction, or some other malfunction, so the S3 AP- hits. Mostly though it has some nasty penalties. Acidic is mostly to offer some MEQ killing power and be the expensive but killy option. Stun gas can hold down some fearful units if possible. Death gas is for killing horde armies, but still they get a save and only would 1/2 the time. Blind gas is for locking down some melee emimies before the charge.

You purchase gas types like ammunition. These were just the gas types I could think of, there should be more. I kinda wanted to have an ongoing gas effect, but it seemed a little powerful. --Bobthe6th (talk) 19:02, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Realised that canisters aren't that mutch better then a normal blast. Saved rules here for later.

Canister(size): When a weapon with this weapon scores a hit, hold a blast template of the size in the parentheses with the hole centered over the struck model. all units with a model under the template take a number of hits equal to the number of models under the template. If the attack misses, scatter and inflict hits as a blast weapon of the size in the parentheses. --Bobthe6th (talk) 19:26, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

With your wording, every unit hit takes a number of hits equal to the number of models hit, not the number of model of said unit hit ( If it is wanted I apologize, through I wouldn't get why you would want that ). So, say 2 models from Squad A and 2 from squad B are hit, each one takes 4 hits by your wording. A more correct - to me - wording would be "Every unit with a model or more under the template takes a number of hits equal to the number of its models under the template.". Also, currently, you could fire these as snap shots, is it wanted ? You could also make it cover one of your own units ( Which, through I'm not the author of the KI, wouldn't fit with their fluff I think )

I think most of these problems would be solved if the Canister rule simply stated that instead of rolling hit or scatter on the regular dice ( With arrows ), you would do it on a D6 with the regular BS chart, and then you'd combine it with Ordnance or Blast. Komorebi (talk) 19:28, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Already eddited it to just be blasts, generally large. --Bobthe6th (talk) 19:56, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

I've been looking at the Heavy Support Vehicle options and have decided on a couple of things: regular Predators are back in, and, along with the Vindicator, Landraider and Whirlwind, will be allowed to be taken in squadrons, in order to better represent the Knight Inductor's massive vehicle pool. The Hurricane is out, though if they can be taken in squadrons (considering how cheap they are) this will mitigate any lost firepower. Predator Vaeris is still staying as the experimental hotbed tank, and I'll be adding in the option for Vindicators to take the Upgraded Demolisher Cannon (from the Experimental Vehicle Wargear).

I'm probably keeping in the Razorwind as a premier AA tank option, possibly also allowed to be taken in squadrons. I'm undecided whether to put in the Hunter/Stalker in as options, considering the Heavy support options are already so filled up. Remoon101 (talk) 18:14, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

An idea: since you've put marauder armour in the war gear section, should you make it available to characters (with further upgrades available as per usual to terminator armour)? That could lead to an option for a shooty captain parked with an innovatus squad or the like. It wouldn't even have to be that expensive and it would be a good option fluff wise - the KI prefer shooty to choppy so it makes sense that their leaders do so as well - and more to the point, the bosses get the shiniest bits, including marauder suits.--Mirmidion43 (talk) 22:07, 23 April 2014 (WST)

That sounds doable, though it would be a semi-pain to expand the armory just to accommodate the armor, it would still make for a very interesting option. Basically making the model a mini MC all on its own. I'll see if I can fit it in for Captains at least. Remoon101 (talk) 14:54, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

OP here: I'm considering moving Marauders to the Elites section to increase the number of options there since the Heavy Support section is getting pretty crowded Remoon101 (talk) 15:09, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I still see the muraders as obliterator look alikes, so heavy support makes sense.

Also, elites is pretty damn crowded too.

BIG POSSIBLE CHANGE: There was a complaint a while ago about the odd numbering system for the Knight's squads, concerning the 24 model cap and the 6 - model requirements for unlocking certain wargear options. I propose to change the unit cap to 20 models and lower the requirements for 6 models to 5. Needless to say, this would make points adding a lot more simpler for people, though I would still keep in the Inductor pattern Dedicated transport options to increase capacity so that you could have IC's ride with full squads (or 10-man demi-squads in this case).

Alternatively: I would have it so that you could take up to 20 models, but for every 5 models, you could take an extra man with special wargear options (aka could take an extra heavy weapon/special weapon, etc.) In total you could take up to the 24 model cap this way and split according to the Tactical Fire teams special rule. I however feel that would turn out to be overly complicated in some cases.

All in all I really liked the reasoning behind the original 24 man to a squad count (presented tactical flexibility apart from the Codex Astartes, being able to split up into 3 different configurations as the situation called for it) but I'm willing to make these changes to add some Quality of Life changes to the codex. Remoon101 (talk) 15:50, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I mean... there is also the issue of efficient squads for moral checks. going 5, 9, 13, 17, 21... going by #/4=whatever.25. so it leads to an interesting trade off for fire teams. six man minuimum teams pushes for jumping to 9 man squads. I also really like the six man teams, and agree they are more semetrical. So yeah... issues. Perhapce drop the minimum squad to 5, but keep everything else the same?--Bobthe6th (talk) 20:54, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

The 24 man squad sizes is part of the original fluff isn't it? In that case it should stay - most definitely. In addition, it works with the upgrades to vehicles, slots in nicely with the only land raider pattern that you would ever actually take as a transport (the pseudo redeemer), and generally makes the army more interesting. It also differentiates the whole combat squads thing and makes termies and bikes able to more accurately combat squad. I think that it shouldn't be changed.--Mirmidion43 (talk) 19:09, 27 April 2014 (WST)

A point about scouts. I reckon that they shouldn't actually be scouts - for a number of reasons:

The training knights inductor are BS4 and scouts are (fluff wise) equally well trained at least, if not better.

The knights inductor value snipers highly, meaning they are likely to have a dedicated sniping unit beyond sternguard vets (who aren't really supposed to be snipers anyways)

Due to the higher amount of basic ubiquitous training the KI follow, the whole purpose of having a scout squad to get used to combat is obsolete - the trainees that take to the field cover that purpose

Therefore, I reckon a bunch of things should be changed:

Name changed to something like Marksmarines (name flexible)

BS to at least 4

Full power armour (they are full marines)

Sniper rifles standard, upgrade to stalker pattern bolter and AAMR

Lose the access to heavy bolter and missile launcher

WS to 4 (maybe, they are snipers not punch-up marines)

More or less the same special rules as scouts (they are dedicated snipers)

This would be in line with KI fluff and would be an interesting troops choice. --Mirmidion43 (talk) 19:17 27 April 2014 (WST)

Losing S&P would be a massive blow to snipers, forcing a lot more of a gunline aproche. perhapce a 2 points per model updrade to make a scout WS4/BS4?--Bobthe6th (talk) 17:09, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

I prefer the simplest solution given by Bobthe6th here. The reason the Aspirants have BS4 is because they're naturally talented and at the end point of gene-seed viability (the latest point when a gene-seed can be successfully implanted without major complications). They're the second way the Knights gets recruits basically, straight from the Schola Progenium and such. If they do become Scouts at the end of their service they are usually expected to rapidly pass the "mundane" recruits into the Incursion teams. Remoon101 (talk) 22:04, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

I technically already made the change but I wanted you guys to know that I changed the second part of The Unseen special rule so that it doesn't give Pinning anymore from area terrain but simply enhances units that have it (-1Ld to Pinning test, D3 wounds to Pinning-immune units). This was to reduce the redundancy the rule had with existing wargear (sniper, scoped, mark-sense upgrade) and to make those aforementioned pieces of wargear more worth their points. Remoon101 (talk) 15:29, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

I've changed the heavy grav cannon to deal a S10 AP1 hit only to models underneath the center of the template or hit via the Path of Destruction rule. Basically, it has the combined effect of a battle cannon and rail cannon all in one while being more destructive than either. Remoon101 (talk) 00:39, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

I've added the default Warlord Traits to all the named special characters. Planning on adding a special character Chaplain and then elite mini-HQ units for select squads (analogous to Telion and Antaro Chronus in Codex: Space Marines in terms of how they function). Remoon101 (talk) 23:40, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Recently balanced Stunner bolts after realizing that each hit would inflict a Blind test (meaning almost guaranteed failure for the target with a full squad firing). They only inflict Blind on a 6 to hit and I have reduced the cost to compensate. Remoon101 (talk) 23:50, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Are you going to make Marauder suits available to captains, happy chappies and silencers only? Or include techmarines, MOTF and librarians too.

• After a long time of debate I decided to make them available as a Captain-in-Marauder-Armor option. I thought it'd be really unwieldy to have a Marauder Wargear section in addition to the Terminator wargear. Remoon101 (talk) 16:51, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Idea: what about heavy weapon fletchet weapons. As a replacment for the heavy bolter. Maybe boost range and make it assault 4? Also, offer a buffed defebsive grenade with sun gas?

From what I have gathered the many of the knights inductor do not like the idea of melee and would rather stay at range, while I guess some of them would prefer close combat maybe for units like the captain we should have the option wo swap BS and WS, so the captain would be BS 6 WS 5. Gutsm3k (talk) 20:38, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

• I was actually thinking of making Captains WS5 standard so WS/BS 5 with a price drop. BS6 is considered rare so I wouldn't just switch them like that, plus higher BS is less useful than higher WS. Remoon101 (talk) 16:51, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

• I guess, although I would say the reason BS6 is rare is because the rest of the galaxy isn't to reasonable (see what I did there?) as the knights inductor and so most leaders choose to focus on melee prowess. Adding it in would be more for fluff purposes though as BS6 is almost no better than BS5.

After reading through the Strikedown rule I realized that it could be really useful since it works even if they pass an armor save. I'm not quite sure what to do with the application of them though (what kind of weapon to add the SD rule to). Remoon101 (talk) 16:53, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Typos and RAW Issues

To centralize typos and rules contradictions found, so the OP can fix them.

In the scout squad, there is an option to "gain trooper armor, lose infiltrate-2pts per model" yet they have trooper armor standard. Is this supposed to be power armor?

• I have removed the option. Was considering going with Carapace but just decided to keep them with Trooper armor standard

Mandate is a sniper weapon, yet has a S value. Even exidus rifles have an X value for sniping.

• I have made it Strength X. On that note, I also changed Stalker pattern bolters to Str X Sniper weapons to be consistent with the 6th ed SM codex

Missile Launchers are supposed to list the ammo options they have available, generally krakk and frag come stock and you need to pay an extra 5 for flakk rounds.

• Noticed I didn't have that for the Scouts and fixed it. Also flakk is 10pts as seen in all codicies (still over costed but what ya gonna do?). On the other hand, our devs can get Skyfire without flakk Remoon101 (talk) 22:13, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Any reason the mobilis artillery don't have a stat line for the guns?

• I have it in the pdf format codex, but it should be assumed that they have the normal statline of T7 W2 Sv3+. I'll add that info in for clarification Remoon101 (talk) 14:28, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Is the cost for upgrading a unit of scouts to BS4/WS4 supposed to include the Sargent in the number of models?

Do the land raider variants have Power of the Machine Spirit and assault Vehicle special rules?

• Just added that in.

The entry for marauder pattern terminator armour doesn't actually let the marauder fire more then one gun. That makes any additional firepower pointless.

Not sure where to post this but I would like to point out that a stalker bolter will have a higher chance to wound anything toughness 6 or over then the AAMR. I kinda fee like the AAMR should instead have always wound on threes (with a cost increase) to better represent it's described killing power Gutsm3k (talk) 23:21, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Not a definite RAW issue per se, but I believe we could use some clarification on how Right Behind You works. So unit starts in reserves and can only enter by deep striking into declared piece of terrain. Is it intended that the opponent can camp nominated piece to (effectively) automatically cause the unit in question to mishap when it comes from reserves? Should the piece of terrain be nominated secretly (when you create a note, like with Ymgarl genestealers before) or not? --Barrogh (talk) 11:09, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

I hope you see this Evilexecutive, I apologize for basically wiping out all of your edits recently. The Xavion one I re-read the Sniper rules and realized that Mandate is fine as it is and the fact that it can't one-shot vehices or what-not is a balancing factor. Plus I liked his points-cost as is so I'd rather have him in the un-buffed state at 165pts.

As for the defensive grenades there was one big issue with your editing: 7th edition changed how defensive grenades work, and they no longer give Stealth within 6"/8" (can't remember what it was). First off, it was not terribly broken if you look at it like that, it was only useful within a certain range. Secondly, the grenades don't even have that functionality anymore, so your edits had no basis. I was particularly confused by the fact you would so easily neuter a core strength of the Knights (defensive counter assault in line with their fluff) and not even bother to replace it with a frag grenade at least. Yes, Blind grenades are still strong, but that is no reason to strip the Knights of them just to leave them with Krak grenades.

The core concept of this army is suppressive firepower and the empyrean anathema. Key to that are the rules: Blind, Concussive, Strike-down and Pinning. Adding a new way to use these rules is great for this codex. But removing them or making them less accessible with no compensation is not an easy thing since it's core to the army's identity Remoon101 (talk) 15:15, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

• Sorry for changing things without permission, but SIlencer rules were all over the place, worded rather poorly, and the same goes for Null powers. Mezmerro (talk) 08:06, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

I have two RAW questions. First: Suppresion Tactics - can special attacks be used any time or only when a unit is within 1' of cover? Second: Sagitta "Skybolt" Missile Launcher - Barrage special rule can't be used without some kind of blast.

It is intended for the special attacks to be able to be used outside of cover, with Pinning alone being within cover. I have edited the wording to that effect.

Noted on the Skybolt, I'll add in the proper wording that it always hits side-armor and can ignore intervening terrain as intended. Remoon101 (talk) 11:59, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

General questions as I read through the codex

I really, really like this formation. Just... all of it is incredibly sexy. Still, minor issue is that no one can actually lead the Covert Operations Strike Team, due to the fact that no captain has a camo cloak.

My suggested fix is to Add camo cloaks to the special issue wargear section and Captain Xavion's profile.--Bobthe6th (talk) 16:53, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

There's already camo cloaks in the special issue wargear section silly! Though I do like the idea that Xavion should have one in his profile to begin with. -http://1d4chan.org/wiki/User:Evilexecutive

Is it intentional that the bulwark dreadnaught can give cover saves to other bulwark dreadnaughts? Because the idea of a dreadnaught hideing in the cover of another dreadnaught seems a little silly. Also, with camo netting both of them get a 3+ cover save.

Bulwark dread doesn't give a cover save to itself. Literally imagine them as carrying an Aegis Defense Line in their arms. I suppose you're right that you can have 3 Bulwarks in a line, providing a portable wall that advances slowly forward. My one and only problem with running this is that they don't have dedicated ranged weapons, so I can't have Riot Shield Riflemen Dreads. As for camo cloaks, yes that is fair, they're vehicles and can therefore take camo cloaks just like other dreads and predators can take hunter killers. Keep in mind that, you're dumping a lot of points, easily 135 points into a 15" wall section that moves.

No, I mean take two bulwark dreads. Stand them next to each other. Suddenly both have a cover save from the other. This seems really silly, but also anyone but Tau might have problems with AV13-14 3+ targets. --Bobthe6th (talk) 16:40, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

They're not ranged combat dreads. At most you can get them two Heavy Flamers. Bulwarks are just a wall with power fists. Like I said, it's balanced by their high point cost, and lack of ranged weapons. You buy them for the portable wall aspect. Yes, two bulwark dreads can give each other cover saves. You're spending 270 points for a 21" Wall Section now, that gives cover saves to itself. Instead of 135 points for a 15" wall section. I'd be worried about wall of death for charging them, or if someone splurges on now a 155 point wall section for TL Autocannons(Because missile launchers are silly on dreads). -Evilexecutive@gmail.com

Okay guys, I've added my next masterpiece to the codex, Strike-down grenades/charges. It's still undergoing tweaks, so I haven't added it to the armory or any characters yet. I might use this and phase Demolition charges mostly or altogether, since the idea of KI running around the blasting the crap out of things with Demo Charges didn't sit right with me (that and most other Astartes don't seem to use them either). Remoon101 (talk) 11:56, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Alright, I think I've got the final iteration for the Seismic charges down, aside from possibly price point. What do you guys think of it, should it replace the Demolition charge entirely in all places in the codex? I feel that'd be the simplest way to go about it, rather than having them awkwardly coexist together. And should the pricing be different? The Seismic Charge doesn't nearly have the same raw power of the Demo Charge but has some nifty special rules (Concussive, Strike-down) that helps it. Perhaps 15pts instead of 20pts? Or maybe even just 10pts? Remoon101 (talk) 20:29, 7 May 2015 (UTC)(Ap

We're lowering the power(AP- down from AP2), but also adding a bunch of really badly crippling SR's, I'd say the points cost should be around 15. -Evilexecutive

Silencers effectiveness

OK, they are too powerful in their current state against armies that rely on Psi-powers, especially daemons. First off, you get D6+ilencersML+Number of full squads in ther army number of Null charges to deny pretty much anything that is thrown on you on 4+ no less. This means with 5 10-men infantry squads and you gonna get 4.75 successful denys at average. Only daemons and eldar can get enough Warp Charges to go through that, and at this point they're throwing out 300-600 pts of psykers against a single 90 pts model. Single librarian/sorcerer/weirdboy (yes, they do exist) is pretty much shut down until the end of the game if the Silencer sits his entire game in a bunker - you just have more Null Charges that he have Warp Charges, all acrivated with a same chance. That's ridiculous. Grey Knights can do that with enemy witchfires and maledictions, but KI can shut down anything anywhere always. And then said 90 pts model get as many charges to manifest his powers as a Grey Knight Librarian, and fuck psykers and daemons even more, all denied on 6+ unless the target have AW or Kharn.

I can't help but feel a little Deja Vu for this, like this subject has been brought up multiple times before. It's almost like Anti-gun nuts asking for restrictions on guns, and then getting what they want.. Only to come back later to ask for more restrictions because they weren't good enough. We have previously nerfed and clarified a multitude of things to deal with Silencers, and even entertained an annoying suggestion to do away with Empyrean Anathema in its entirety. Look, I'm putting my foot down, drawing about 20 lines in the sand, and now placing a line of salt at my doors & windows. I won't condone anymore nerfing on the subject, when right now it feels satisfying enough.

You get what you pay for with this army, absolutely everything to do with Empyrean Anathema has a price hike that means you take less bodies on the table. Silencers cost considerably more than psykers at every power level, and they have little to show for it against Non-psyker armies. Silencers are intended to be used to shut-down the psychic phase, and that's what they do. Yes, it's still balanced as well that only Grey Knights, Daemons, and Eldar are able to burn through silencers by brute force, while groups like Space Marines and Guard struggle to get off powers with the few psykers they do bring. That's fully intended, and has been thoroughly established. Let me explain this, 1 - 1, the Silencer shuts down the phase. One Silencer to one Librarian, that's the balance. Two Librarians will have a good chance to burn through on 1 Silencer, while the Silencer will absolutely struggle with stopping Eldar Psychic phase when they're throwing 50+ Dice with Ghosthelm and rerolls at the table. -Evilexecutive

Yeah. Try to playtest Tzeenchian daemons list against this.

There where "fuck all psykers always everywhere" mechanics in the game before in the form of Space Wolves' runic weapons and Eldar runes of warding, and they where removed form the new codexes for a reason. You want Silencers to shut down Psychcic phase? Fine. Eversor assassins can do that if you get them close enough, so I have no problem with KIs doing that too. But make that by giving them a reasonably sized anti-psiker aura, like a Psychic Hood on steroids, and give them that broken 4+ deny only inside that aura. Outside it's only 5+ if used to deny powers, manifested on the Knights, and 6+ on their mortal servants, allies, and enemies. This way your opponent may at least have a way of avoiding it other than killing the silencer. At the very least this aura would force you to do something with your silencer, since in a current state he wins his points back just by being on the table.

I'll wait for the input of the other editors on this topic. Eldar Runes of warding weren't actually removed, they got replaced by the ability to both Spend a Warp Charge to eliminate Perils of the Warp, and some special rule that let's them Re-roll Charges for both manifesting, and Denying. I've played Knights Inductor against Eldar, and believe me when I say that "Fuck all psykers always everywhere" is still a thing in that FUCKING CODEX. They don't give a rats puckered arse about only denying on 6s, when they have 30+ dice with REROLLS to DENY. -Evilexecutive

Runes are still there, but the mechanic that forced psy tests on 3D6 is gone, just like the Wolves retained their tunic weapons, but now it only grants AW, that even cannot be projected through a psychic hood, rather than nullifying powers on 4+ across the board. And Eldar no longer can throw out so much WCs, not after Council get (quite rightfully) nerfed from a squad of single Psykers to a Brotherhood of Psykers. Deamons still can, but they kind of NEED, given they either dominate psy phase or die.

Oh, here have some math. Your average list of Knights Inductor at 1850 points; assuming you optimize for Empyrean Anathema on all squads, 2 Silencers, and with the D6+Master+IC Rolls+Squad Charges, you get an average of 12 charges per turn, of which 50% of those succeed at denying. Tzeenchian daemons running DEMONFACTORY will have a statistical average of 36 dice per turn to cast powers, of which they need 10 charges to get a ~66% chance of summoning Daemons. They will attempt this 3 times. According to that math, you can only stop 1 summon per turn and that's it. You might be able to block a use of Cursed earth too if you're lucky, but they're still summoning 20 Daemonettes/Horrors a turn. -Evilexecutive

Who the hell even plays summoning lists nowadays? It had been tested and proven that they just don't work even against psykerless armies. Actually, ESPECIALLY against psykerless armies. Each time you summon daemons you're sacrificing your shooting. And if you don't kill the enemy, they would kill you faster then you're summoning reinforcements. It's only an option on the first few turns when you have nowhere to dump your warp charges.

I'm not adding to this conversation, I'm making a note here because someone decided that we didn't have enough power and buffed the Deny roll of 5+ with a Silencer's presence, which we already went over in the past. And I shall reiterate: a null or blank only affects the area surrounding himself. A Silencer can somewhat extend his personal aura and manipulate it. But he CANNOT influence an entire battlefield enough to empower the null aura coming from his comrades. He can ONLY add his own immediate influence (which is well represented enough in their Null Charge generation and power-immunity rules).

Remember, Silencers and nulls and blanks are at their most effective when up and close to the Warp thing or Psyker in the first place, which has been shown in written canon and other written works. All Knights have a general immunity but it's much more faint than the real thing. Remoon101 (talk) 18:55, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Okay, I'm going to apologize, it was me that put up the 4+ thing for silencers, I thought it would just make sense that the Silencer would have better control over the null aura. I guess, if you really feel that strongly about it, that it was a mistake and for that i'm sorry. However, on all the other points, exec is right. We've been over this like 3 times already and each time we've come to the conclusion that "it's actually fine as it is" when numbers are applied and the fluff makes sense. I'm going to back exec on this, because I believe that this won't stop unless you get your way Mez, and the silencers are nerfed hard, something that exec and I will be annoyed with and want to reverse, and we have the same problem here only swapping the words nerf with buff. Mirmidion43 (talk) 22:46, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Actually it's mostly Mezzy whose been repeatedly bringing up the whole, "Silencers Op Plznerf" arguement annoyingly often. It doesn't help that he didn't Signature his arguments. Remmy and me generally want things to be stable and balanced, while keeping these changes to a very light push and pull between us main editors and whoever wants to come over. Sometimes however, people need to dig their heels into the ground and say that something needs to stop. The 5+ Global deny started as a 4+, and was a 4+ for almost a full year until Mezzy started complaining, and we came to an agreement that sure, maybe it should just be 5+. I'm leaning more on the 4+, as that one directly equates to 10 null charges needed to cancel out 10 Warp charges spent per psychic power, on the assumption that Warp Charges activate on 4+. On a 5+ deny, you need 13 null charges to cancel 10 warp charges. Evilexecutive (talk) 23:05, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Just crunched some math, the Chaos Nullification Task Force Formation boosts your average number of Null Charges per army by a whopping 3, assuming that the other sub-formations are attached to said primary formation. So with that, the average; somewhat optimized, Knights Inductor army will have 15 null charges per turn instead of 12.Evilexecutive (talk) 23:17, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Mirm, you're wrong. I'm not looking to nerf Silencers. Understand that, and all of sudden the misunderstandings you might have will clear up (see Evilexecutive's statement above). I was and am against the 4+ DtW for Null Charges in any form, because of the fluff reasons I stated. I like Silencers as they are right now, and I've even gone ahead and buffed them a bit in the Null Powers and especially with Rachnus as of late. Again as Evilexec said, the only one really voicing their opinion on nerfing/how strong Silencers is Mez right now.

What I'm concerned with is KEEPING TO THE FLUFF. That is what I have written thus far in this topic and I gave my reasons even citing canon elements. Don't misconstrue me, Mirm.

I WILL become more against making big changes to the system over time because I expect this codex to become more balanced with every edit. And the closer this codex comes to being balanced for the edition, the smaller the changes will have to be in order to avoid disturbing it, unless a unit is being added or overhauled. Remoon101 (talk) 01:48, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

OK, you want keep to the fluff? Lets see at a Null Charge generation from the fluff perspective. Currently you get them from:

1) Silencers, which is fine and dandy, since they're full blown Blanks

2) Units with Empyrean Anathema, which is fine too, since they are semi-blanks, and (at least old) fluff says blank auras are cumulative, so bunching a lot of very weak ones together would work just fine.

3) Extra D6 at the start of each turn, from... fuck knows where. Psykers get theirs D6 from the intensity of Warp currents in the area (hence why both sides get the same amount). There are no Null energy flows somewhere in the parallel dimension, you can tap for extra power. The only source you can draw that power from are the inverse souls of Blanks.

And yes, I know I'm whining. I do really like the idea of Silencers and null auras, but I want it to be implemented true to the fluff, and mechanically challenging, rather than "it just works globally, no matter what you do". For once, i am to totally FOR a 4+ DtW boost for a Silencer, IF it does involve an active mechanic, like putting that Silencer close (12-18") to the Psyker and/or his target, rather than just placing him on the table. After all, we already had similar mechanics with Culexus and Tyranids, and playing with that was a lot of fun for both sides. Mezmerro (talk) 06:25, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

We had this point before about the extra D6, it was resolved in the same way that there's no especial reason that psykers get the D6 - they don't "winds of the warp" like in fantasy, the D6 represents how much power they risk drawing from the warp without overly attracting the attention of daemons. The same thing applies with silencers, only replace the "no daemon attention" with "don't freak out everyone around you and have them dump your arse while running for the hills". This point was dealt with last time and resolved, don't go beating a dead horse. Mirmidion43 (talk) 10:02, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

The point is, Blanks have nowhere to draw their power from, unlike the Psykers who can surge into a Warp for a little extra on top of their own energy, since the kind of power Blanks use does not exist naturally, and can only be found inside other Blanks. Mezmerro (talk) 10:38, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Again, I think we covered this. It's a matter of how much they're willing to tap. Think of the number of Null charges as all available energy for silencers. The army charges are the null auras given off by the Silencer's companions. The 1-3 he gets by himself is his own minimum power. And the D6 is the amount extra over his normal levels that the Silencers on the board are willing to tap into their collective psyches to draw additional power while risking terrifying their brothers through Perils. It's pretty much the same deal with normal Psykers - unless they're true daemons, they don't actually utilise the raw warp, the D6 represents how much they're willing to risk binding into a cohesive force while attracting attention from (other) daemons. Hence the D6 modifier. It's the same logic. Mirmidion43 (talk) 11:55, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm not convinced by thic logic, as it's still full of gaps, but then, I'm not one of this codex co-authours, but just a bystander. Still, I think the anti-magical thing KIs have need to be more active, relying on posiotioning to get the most out of it - this way it would be more satisfying for both sides, as it would actually rely on the skill instead of basically playing itself almost without a place for any of the players to make meaningful decisions. Mezmerro (talk) 12:06, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

So what are you suggesting? That the deny ability should be limited by the number of Knights in an area? That Silencers should be the only ones allowed to use warp charges to deny? That there should be a bubble that Silencers project that allow the regular grunts to deny, kind of like a null hood? Ideas are far more welcome than complaints and calling for concepts to be scrapped. If you have a valid suggestion, just make it. Mirmidion43 (talk) 12:50, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I suggest the following:

- Keep the current Null Charge generation system.

- Null charges are used to Deny on unmodifiable 6+ by default (no fun for your BT and GK allies, but then why do you have bloodthirsty zealots and mass murderers of civilians as your allies?).

- If NC is used to deny anything manifested from or targeted on anything within 6" of any friendly unit with Empyrean Anathema, your DtW is boosted to unmodifiable 5+. This way you may use your basic Knights to project some null-protection over their mortal servants and allies, and with some maneuvring can bring that small bubbles of 5+ DtW to the enemy (say, with a drop-pod or a transport flyer), which would at least force your enemy psykers to move out of Null range - and being able to dictate enemy movement is a boon on it's own.

- If NC is used to deny anything manifested from or targeted on anything within 12-18" (playtesting needed, maybe a nice idea incorporate some synergy with Unleash Aura) of any Silencer, your DtW is boosted to unmodifiable 4+. This way you get your fun-sized bubble of fuck you towards all psyker, and you can actually cover a lot of your army with it, OR push forward and cover your enemy army, disrupting even their blessings and summonings. This way you'd have a choice to either play safe hiding the Silencer in the meaty bunker with 3+ armor and cover, or play it riskier with a higher reward. Mezmerro (talk) 13:18, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I like most of those ideas with two small problems. The first is that that won't stop most blessings (5+ is weak to begin with and 6+ won't stop crap). The second is that one of the big tricks of regular Librarians is the 24" bubble of deny that the Psychic Hood gives. If that works for the Space Marines, I reason that the Silencer bubble should be at least 18", if not 24". I think personally that the first problem is the bigger one, as that is the problem faced by about 90% of psychic denial methods in the game currently and is a giant flaw in the system that is exploited ruthlessly. I think that the Knights should have the capacity to shut down blessings better than regular marines, as they are, in fluff, a lot better at it. Mirmidion43 (talk) 13:27, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

And you want to be able to stop blessing just by clapping your hands? The way I proposed above it's still possible, even more so than per current rules with 4+ instead of 5+, but you must actually earn it with a careful maneuvering. After all, KI's are supposed to be highly tactical chapter. And if you cannot into maneuvering, you can bruteforce down one or two blessings on 6+ from the safe distance with all the extra charges you get over regular armies. And please check 7e rulebook - AFAIK hoods got nerfed to 12". Mezmerro (talk) 13:43, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Point made, but in the games i've played so far, it has still been 24". Maybe remoon or exec could confirm? Either way, this setup seems to favour drop pod lists and mechanised lists over gunlines and the use of infiltrate for dakka units, the latter of which seem to be what have taken the lions share of the battle reports. I'll wait and see what the others have to say about your ideas before changing anything. Mirmidion43 (talk) 13:48, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

If it would encourage more mobile lists, it would be an improvement. Gun-lines are BOOOOORING. Pretty much after the first turn one your only meaningful decisions would be about what you're going to focus-fire first. This is why I keep my Tau gunline army on the shelf, despite it showing better results then my Enclave Crisiswing.Mezmerro (talk) 13:56, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

As for signatures, just read the view history thing to easily see who's chimed in, it's easy to guess who's written what from there as we all write quite distinctly. Mirmidion43 (talk) 10:02, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

That huge formation

So... is that a formation of formations? Can I take individual base and normal formations in any number, if I don't want the overall pacification detachment?

It seems kinda nuts. Like... so much upside for very little cost. I can see no real argument for taking anything but a pacification detachment... Given you have the best allies for providing cheap scoring bodies that can drop out of the sky on objectives(Farsight enclaves).

• The cost is that you need to take a specific set of units. Every other 7th edition codex is getting formations just like these, me and Mirm are just jumping on board and adding formations for Knights Inductor. Yea, there's no real arguement for why you shouldn't take the formation as opposed to Battle Forged, or Unbound, because yes you get bonuses for following it. But this is the same case for all of the other armies that now have "Formations"
• Armies chart has to do with the proper fluff of the Knights Inductor, and won't change, unless new armies are added to the game. We're eastern fringe with tau allies, and independent nation chapter(Just like the ultramarines are). We are Tech Heretics, so the Inquisition doesn't like us, and the Mechanicum doesn't like us either. But we're tolerable, so they can deal with us if they have to. The last bit is that we serve "The Best Interests of Mankind", hence being Come the Apocalypse with Chaos, Dark Eldar, Tyranids, and Orks.

Specific issues: First Company Veterans Guidance Team:I hope the early reserves are intended to only count for the units in the team? Otherwise this is insane. Yes terminators are bad. That is not enough of a tax for turn one reserves.

• Yes, the bonuses for the formation apply only to the models in the formation itself.

It could be a lot clearer with a few more words. "..., and You can roll for reserves for units in this formation starting turn 1."

I've clarified it now. Turn 1 Deep Striking now only applies to units in the formation that give it. -Evilexecutive@gmail.com

General Response Force, Rapid Response Force, Infiltration and Covert Operations Strike Team,& Advanced Technological Support Node: why all the free gear? It is not like any of the required gear choices in the base formations are bad, and almost all of them are really, really good.

• Notice how these are very large, high points cost formations, like between 300 and 500 points minimum. They can get even larger. We're still working on balancing this out with other armies, so I'd be happy to take suggestions on how you'd like this changed.

Advanced Technological Support Node: Why up to five dreadnaughts? Like... that is a very specific, very large number. No other formation in the over formation has any units you can take 5 of... and I really see no reason you would ever want 5 dreadnaughts.

• Conga line of Bulwarks from one side of the board to the other? ;P

It just seems weird, and wondered if there was a reason for the huge amount of a meh unit.

I honestly don't know, the whole formations spiel is Mirm's Baby, I'm just the writer and mathematician who tries to get things balanced and add cute italics descriptions. Once you get into the whole deal with 5 bulwarks, it is actually more efficient to just buy two kits of Aegis Defense Lines(WITH the quad cannons!), and have 5 Dreads with Dual TL Autocannons with Camo Cloaks. Actually wait, Venerables can take Experimental Weapons, so I suppose you're taking up to 5 Venerables with HGRAV's/MLRS's, if you're bringing the Advanced Tech Node. But I agree, 5 Dreads is too many. I'll reduce it down to 4.

Just a general point - the formations that I came up with are just rough, feel free to make comments and criticisms, i'm open minded, just post them here or email me: fitzti15@student.aquinas.wa.edu.au - open to discussion. Mirmidion43

Added another formation, I realised that Supressors and Mobilius Artillery were never going to see the light of day as they were, so I added a formation to give them some use. Again, if you guys have any ideas or comments, just bring them up here and we can talk or email me if you want to talk privately, my email is above. Mirmidion43

If you guys didn't notice, I added a tech/vehicle/MOTF centered formation for flavor, since the Innovatus Quest for Knowledge is a big part of the Knight Inductor in general. Remoon101 (talk) 00:36, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Problem with the Google Document

Alright, so I now have a problem with the Google Document, and that it's too bare-bones of a system for making a proper codex.

All of the things that we would have needed; Page Backgrounds, Image Editing Tools, Importable Fonts, and such, aren't present in Google Documents. Worse yet, it's now a complete clusterfuck, with no formatting of any kind at all.

The whole point of it was to produce a codex for the Knights Inductor that was the same as other armies codexes, that includes Parchment background, Pictures of models, and artworks. Which can't be done in Google Documents. We need a new system that allows for open collaboration, but includes the detail of a PDF. And by that, I mean the finished product needs to look like Codex: Space Marines.

And here's another point. We need people to post up pictures of their models for Knights Inductor, both in the Grey with Blue Pauldrons/Company Trim Ceremonial Colors, and with Camouflage. I'd setup a Gallery in the Wikipedia Codex, for people to post models in the meantime. Those will be used later for an actual printable codex.

Since I was working on the PDF previously before college hit me I'll try to get down the fluff for the rest of the units of the Knights Inductor. For a final product I can transfer the info, pictures and details off of the document and format it like I have in the old pdf. I have "STC templates" for creating codex pages to do so. That is if everyone likes how the pdf looks. Remoon101 (talk) 20:24, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Well, you've got another writer working on the codex at least. I've been working on completely rewriting the whole deal with the first Null Knight, so that concepts like Null Weapons, Xavion, and even the Silencers can be further expanded upon in the fluff. This is mostly why I've been trying several times to get your attention and have you email me Remmy, I wanted to get involved with you on writing fluff for the codex directly. Email me, it's always good to have multiple people writing sections for codexes, as that at least takes some workload off. -Evilexecutive@gmail.com

Primary Formation Suggestions

Alright, well Mirm asked me to come up with some more formations awhile back, but I haven't made any yet. So here's my take on a possible addition to the Primary Formations. The idea is something similar to something my friend told me about, called the "Phoenix Court of Khaine", which had an Avatar of Khaine, plus every single Aspect Warrior.

Now the idea here is simple, a formation whereby you take every last one of the characters. This one is probably the most expensive of them all, clocking in at a monstrous 1280 points, and is probably only a good idea to be bringing in 5000+ point games, or themed battles. The benefit being that most of the characters have, or should have abilities that require they are the warlord.

Changes to the codex would make the following abilities require the character to be a warlord.

The Macharius Strategems

Ongoing Negotiations

Core of Brutality

Head of the Primary Workshop

Graven Brias's Master of Ordnance ability already requires that he is the warlord to make use of the ungodly powerful multiple orbital bombardments. So a player is risking using a WS4 W2 captain as his warlord in exchange for this.

Aprior War Council Chapter Master Zakis Randi, Captain Roland Darren, Captain Isaac Rico, Graven Brias, Severus Gajet, Captain Xavion, and Silencer Rachnus Pacifus. Select two characters in this formation, these characters count as Warlords for the purposes of abilities, in addition to your primary warlord.

We could also possibly make it so that the secondary warlords from the War Council also count for Slay The Warlord.

New Fancy Gadgets

Just wanting to clear things up about some of the new toys that have been getting added and removed from the Codex at will almost.

Demolition Charges: They've been around for a very long time, why did they get taken away?

Remoon101 here, I'll be replying directly. Demolition Charges I felt do not fit the make up of the army. I could see a dedicated unit having access to them but I feel that the peace-keeping Knights wouldn't be carrying Demo Charges around with them compared to Blind grenades or Seismic Charges. Remoon101 (talk) 21:42, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Seismic Charges: They seem a little bit... weak. They don't have the power to really do much and the rules used to balance them are weak as hell and won't trigger most of the time. Thoughts on them? Maybe a way to make people want to take them but not excessively (the point of balance)

Evil (I think it was) suggested the original price point of 15pts that I went with. We can possibly lower it to 10pts then if that's better. Remoon101 (talk) 21:42, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Shock Knuckles and Mauls: The way that they work (with poison) seems a little weird. And no AP isn't the best. Any thoughts on how we could alter these? Also, Shock Knuckles cannot be taken as they are

I don't know either about their effectiveness as I've never used them. However, Poison is a catch-all term for weapons in the game that wound regardless of toughness. For example certain fires, acids, and electrical effects count as poison in the rules. Shock mauls are a nonlethal weapon that sends people unconscious by a taser-like effect. Ergo poison. -evilexecutive

The original incarnation came from the shock prod rod from Gretchin herders from the Ork codex, where it was an electric weapon with a poisoned value. I currently have it as no AP for Shock Mauls because I want to see them as a standard melee weapon in the future, not to mention a Shock Maul by itself shouldn't be armor penetrating (few things are in the game). Shock Knuckles cannot be taken yet because I haven't added them yet. Remoon101 (talk) 21:42, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Electro Shackles: In their current form, with S tests everywhere and a metagame where everyone and his dog is S4 or shouldn't be in combat, they seem pointless and a waste of points. Which is a shame because I really like the idea of them as a kind of electrified bolo that the Knights chucks at something. How can we improve them?

Give them to either Zakis Randi or captain Isaac, it counts as an extra melee attack that reduces stats. You would be surprised how good this is against multiwound eternal warriors like Gazkull-evilexecutive

Yeah, but it only works like that if they fail S tests which is my big issue - firstly there is a low chance of them getting on in the first place, and then they are lacking effectiveness from then on due to an extremely low chance of success. The chance of them doing anything all game, assuming that a S4 guy is the target and fights in three rounds of combat, is less than 1/3.

Electro-Shackles can still be adjusted, I wanted to tweak it to correctly show how restraining having your arms tied together would be in combat. We can make the test to break/resist them harder by having it on a flat D6 roll of 6+ or 5+. I'm leery of making it so that there's no counter-play (if it hits you can't attack at all with your 250pt character) but I do want it to be useful. We could raise the price if we make it harder to resist. Remoon101 (talk) 21:42, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Servitors They've been an option for Master of the Forge and Techmarines for Donkey's Years. We need to add them, but i'm not exactly sure how.

Valkyrie Repressors: a) their name is already present in the Sisters of Battle tank and b) they seem kind of gimmicky without too much effectiveness. They are clearly the regular Valkyrie to the Avenger's Vendetta, but they can't keep up with the regular Valkyrie at all. They cost pretty much the same as a regular Valkyrie with the Multiple Rocket Pods and a Lascannon in the nose for making that lascannon twin linked and armoured ceramite. Then you have to buy gas canisters that all comparatively pale to the Multiple rocket pods. 2 shots of a large blast bolter vs 4 shots of one of those gimmicky gas cans? That you have to pay way more to get the halfway decent ones? Pass. We need to either buff the Gas canisters significantly or reduce the price and still buff the canisters, just not as much. Thoughts on how to do that?

I'm not too well-versed in Flyer balancing so for I can probably adjust the strength of the canisters and lower the price a little Remoon101 (talk) 21:42, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Tracer Rounds: Should they be an upgrade to bolts that configure the Marked by Light effect (and thus can be spammed by everyone and cover the whole board in Marked by Light) or a unique weapon that works like a Not!Markerlight? I personally favour the second due to them being a lot more spammable in the bolt form and thus are actually seriously OP if used correctly. Tau get markerlights to buff their mediocre shooting to god levels. The Knights don't have mediocre base shooting, their base shooting is very good. Allowing them to go God Mode because the Sergeant is a thing seems a little stupid. -Mirmidion43

I moved them to the Experimental Section, so now they're affected by the Experimental Slot mechanic. I personally don't like the idea of Knights stealing Markerlights from Tau, it feels like we're basically stealing a mechanic from another army entirely. But anyway, with Experimental slot it's essentially something that's limited to your captains.

I'm also not in favor of it being as a Rifle, because that would require some very heretical custom modeling. As bolts, they're easier to handle as something you put down on your Army List.

New Character Ideas... Incoming!

Sergeant Ferrus has served with utmost distinction in the Chapter Master's personal guard, acting as his figurative and literal shield in some of the most brutal fighting of the Chapter's history. When Zakis Randi laid broken in body at the hands of Null Knight Tertius, it was Sergeant Ferrus who took up his shield to fend off the tank-rending blows of the Null Knight until Captain Xavion could place the final shot to end the threat. Though not wielding a standard weapon, it is said that not even the most skilled of warriors can force down his guard. He can be best be described as tenacious, self-sacrificing and unwilling to rest even if he is struck down. For him, not even his duty may end in mere death...

The Heart of Iron, Sergeant Ferrus of the Honor Guard - 75pts

"I am the Chapter's Shield!"

Name	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
Ferrus	5	4	4	4	2	4	2	10	2+

Unit Composition: 1 (Unique)

Unit Type: Infantry (Character)

Wargear: Artificer Armor, Blind & Krak Grenades, Bolt Pistol, Electro-Shackles

• Iron Heart- An ancient artifact handed down to the Knights Inductor from the Salamanders Chapter, it is a shield that grows more powerful the greater the threat to the wielder. This is a storm shield that grants a 4+ Invulnerable save, that becomes 2+ against wounds causing Instant Death. In combat it has the following profile:

Name	Range	S	AP	Type
Iron Heart	Melee	+2	4	Two-Handed, Concussive

Options

• May take Terminator armor: free!

Special Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear, Empyrean Anathema, Feel No Pain, The Unseen

• A Tireless Defender- If Ferrus is in a unit, Look Out Sir rolls are automatically passed if the wound is allocated to Ferrus, as well as Glorious Intervention tests. However he himself cannot make any Look Out Sir rolls.
• Duty Calls- If Sergeant Ferrus loses his last wound, he is not removed from play but is placed on his side. At the beginning of each player's turn, roll a D6. He gets up with one wound on a roll of 6. If a friendly character is fighting in a challenge nearby, he gets up on a 3+ and immediately performs a Glorious Intervention.

At first I intended this guy to be down at the squad level to be attached willy-nilly to squads wanting a durable fall-guy in front, but he's starting to turn a bit expensive. I'm trying to keep his killing ability minimal and emphasize his durability. I might lower him to 2W if needed to keep him around 90pts and below, but I feel with his history he's the guy who could take as much punishment as a Captain and more. If it comes to it we can make him a full blown Independent Character instead of squad-level special character. Remoon101 (talk) 20:33, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

"When Captain America throws his mighty shield! All those who oppose the shield must yield! If he’s lead to a fight and a duel is due, Then the red and the white and the blue’ll come through. When Captain America throws his mighty shield." Make the shield a Ranged Weapon singing Spear Style, and we're done. I love this guy already for being that clown who fights people with a shield.

3 Wounds is fine, though I think with this guy's silliness(Which I absolutely adore), he should be around 100 points. -Evilexecutive

Hahah, if it was a round combat shield I was thinking maybe lol. What I had in mind was a huge kite-shield style that you could ram into people (hence the Concussive rule) to throw them off-balance. On a philosophical level, it speaks a lot to the Knights Inductor' character as a Chapter when their equivalent of a Chapter Champion wields a mighty shield to defend rather than a cutting sword to kill. Remoon101 (talk) 21:26, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Yea, with it's description, I was pretty much thinking he uses what amounts to a Roman SCUTUM. Like, a tower shield that goes completely from toe to collar, and is carried in two hands(Because obviously it's designed for terminators ^_^). As for designs, hrm.. Pretty simple, Raised relief of a Brass Scale for the chapter symbol. -Evilexecutive

Jesus Christ guys, this is ridiculous. I don't think this is necessary at all. There are more than just Americans present here, you know, and i've been getting more than one jab at me about it being essentially codex "how america thinks it actually is", adding what is essentially captain america in space is pushing it over the line. We have too many special characters to begin with, at last check it was something like 7 (not including this abomination). GW has been actively cutting back on their special characters (I know its in regards to the chapter house bullshit but I still agree with it). Having 8? I don't think so. And another Captain? Plz no. We have 5 of them already, that only leaves 5 left. I don't want to be stuck with 4 guys as the max for my non special character captains. If you guys insist on another captain character, at least make him a Marauder field master character, that would be actually interesting instead of !not!Captain America. Seriously, on the levels of numbers of characters, numbers of captain characters and the feelings of the non-americans out there, I really think this guy should be scrapped. -Mirmidion43

Wait, where exactly is this coming from? As for him being a captain, which he's not. I think he's more of a "Special Character Honor Guard", which means we'd have to add in an Honor Guard Squad as part of the HQ. Something I've been meaning to do anyway, after the War Council got added in, and that opened up the question of, "What exactly are you going to do with your 3 warlords?" I don't get the whole, anti-america sentiment, and my jab at the character being similar to captain america is merely a silly joke comparison. He's a guy with a shield, and he protects his charges with his life. Hence he's an Honor Guard.

The shield isn't even that good of a weapon either, and I don't like the idea of using a shield as a ranged weapon. I do like the niche he holds though, in that you would essentially use him as a +3 wound bank for your warlord, similar to how Honor Guard were in Codex Space Marines. That being said, I think he needs to be refitted as an upgrade to an Honor Guard Squad, so he's actually in the same style as "Chapter Champion" stuffs. -Evilexecutive

Ok, maybe I overreacted a bit on the whole captain america thing (although, he fights with nothing but a shield and is defensive, that's a pretty big hint), but it wasn't clear that he wasn't a captain character at all. Look at the stats: the only characters with 3 wounds are captains or marauder field masters who are literally captains wearing a different suit. The point about there being too many special characters still stands, however. And if he's a niche character that would never be taken normally, then make him more like anterio chronus or snikrot - an upgrade character to a command squad and drop his wounds to 2 and his price by a chunk. That or replace him with a character that might one day be realistically fielded in less than 2500 pts. Like, as previously mentioned, a Marauder Field Master Character. -Mirmidion43

He is not Captain America. Evilexecutive is the one touting that title. What I had in mind was a gritty as all hell Space Marine with a massive kite-shield looking storm shield that he just plants into the ground and takes the punishment, or swings around and bashes people with. He was nothing more than that and honestly he's nowhere close to Captain America in his crunch, which I never had in mind. If you're pissed at that, well, don't be because that's not what I had in mind when I thought him up. If anything he had a teutonic knight or typical knight feel to me when I thought him up. Also getting pissed at anything being a certain culture is kind of weird. But whatever floats your boat, I'm not getting rid of him for such a petty reason that I believe that doesn't hold with this guy. If you think he's Captain America and get pissed because of that... then I don't know what to say. He's not Captain America, wasn't meant to be, and would kick CA's ass back to 945.1M where he belongs.

The space marines codex has 12 special characters, and 2 special squad-level characters. So I don't know what the heck you're going on about. Not to mention this guy was meant to be a squad level special character. This guy was also not meant to be a captain, with the points that Evilexecutive just slapped on him as well, I'm sorely tempted to knock him down to 2W so he be a little closer to squad-level rather than a full-blown HQ. If we're comparing this to the space marines 'dex he's the defensive analogue of the black templars champion sword dude, or that undying guy in the Grey Knights codex. He's meant to be a high-level, damn near undying body guard, not a leader (though he can be as a Sergeant). If you think he's a captain get rid of that misconception. He doesn't have the profile of a Captain, he has the profile of a space marine dedicated to protecting his cohorts at any cost. If you STILL think he's a Captain, take a good, long, hard, juicy look at his title. Look at it. And burn into your memory for all eternity. But not too hard, because since I only created the guy today his exact title or name may change.

Looking at some of the newer 7th edition codicies I see where you're coming from with the fewer special characters. Honestly it's disappointing on GW's part but since this is a fan-dex for the Knights Inductors, it's not like we have to follow their example. A lot of FLGS aren't going to allow fan made stuff anyway so might as well get away with as many special characters we can reasonably fit in here. Remoon101 (talk) 16:23, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

I have attempted to dismantle your rant with my counter rant on the two points that you argued. We're keeping this guy, because I think he extols the values of the Knights Inductor in ways that a choppy champion just can't. If you still don't want him, then just don't take him. And if you forcibly delete him well then I will get extremely pissed because unless he's blatantly insulting a nationality/race or overpowered to kingdom come, there is no reason to touch him other than to balance him. As always, discussion relating to balance or the introduction of new ideas are welcome. Discussion like this is also welcome but your mileage may vary when the creator is involved with his work and doesn't like people railing on it for reasons that may or may not be entirely sound in an objective sense.

Alrigt the rules for it). To Mirm, I know you can't read my mind over the Internet, but I had already realized that we have enough captains, and I'd like to keep enough obviously so people can make their own with this codex. To give you a (non-ranting) piece of my mind, I'm planning on making said Epistolary special character at the very least, maybe the Null Knight, one or two other squad-level characters, and maybe a special Chaplain. Also I was thinking of another human Special Character in an Aspirant leader who proved his worth to be one of the Knights but couldn't get the implants. I'm still not sure how I'm going to go about a Marauder character (considering the base one is as powerful as some other codicies' special characters) but I'm planning on giving that a shot as well. Remoon101 (talk) 16:00, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Ale above was written after seeing the initial paragraph but I couldn't post it earlier so I'm just copying and pasting)

Alright, although to be fair the reason that the Space Marine codex has so many characters is because it's trying to cover all the different chapters. They are an exception, not the rule. And personally I like the idea of not too many characters. They take away from the "your guys" feel you can get. As for special characters, I think that a character Librarian is a neat idea, same with a character chaplain (they've been unrepresented so far) but there are other interesting areas that remain unrepresented. The ones that stick out for me are Marauders, Innovatus squads and Tanks in general. Maybe a new type of base HQ, to represent a battle focused, not repair focussed, tech marine designed to be an uber Innovatus guy or something along with a special character to go with. Maybe a special character Marauder with a really old gimmicky suit because it was one of the first fielded and he's still using it or a tank commander like Pask.

I've edited his profile here if he was to be nerfed to a more squad-level character. His shield was buffed and his last special rule changed so he can't be removed from play, but it's harder for him to get back up. Remoon101 (talk) 16:11, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

I wouldn't put Null Knights in this codex particularly, but rather as a unit that this codex offers to another codex for unique mission types/campaigns. The deal is that Null Knights are irredeemable, and omnicidal like necrons. They're obscenely tough, to a point that bolters are nearly worthless against them. Id say they would be WS6 Bs5, S5, T7, W6, A3, Ld10, 3+/3++ Equipment would be Power Armor, Storm Shield, Pistol, Null Weapon, Blind & Krak Grenades. Special Rules are, Fearless, Empyrean Anathema, Silencer L3, Ever Living, It Will Not Die, Eternal Warrior All that for 285 points. -Evilexecutive

Pretty much with that statline, you literally NEED silent hands+xavion to be able to bring one down reliably, just like in the fluff.Warrior I suppose the Silencer Alpha could hold him off in melee, or Zakis could tank him for a turn or two.

I agree with Exec. The fluff on the null knights is such that no null knight could ever join the Knights in battle as an ally, let alone a HQ choice. They haven't tried to rehabilitate one since the mess regarding Xerxes and the damn things are conditioned in such a way as to see all life as an abomination to destroy. They MIGHT work with 'crons, but no-one else.

I think we're going away from what I originally intended Ferrus to be... I feel that with his huge points cost (current in-dex, not the revised squad level one I have in here) that he'd be rarely taken except for higher points levels. I envisioned him being at home with Tactical Knights or more usually at the side of a higher ranking Knight Inductor commander, and not exclusively in whatever the Knights have for an Honor Guard (which I also thought of to be more of a formality than anything else). Remoon101 (talk) 21:31, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

What do you guys think of Ferrus' revised Duty Calls rule anyway? I feel like there's no point to taking him at 2W but if we lower the reliability of his resurrection rule we can lower his price a bit. Remoon101 (talk) 20:50, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

No, As is you could easily have it so that after Upgrading a Command Squad to Paladins Inductor, you could further upgrade the Paladins so that one of them is Ferrus, for +25 Points. Stick his Statline and abilities at the bottom of the article for Paladins Inductor. So the base cost of that slot is 150 for 3 models of Paladins Inductor, and then 175 for 2 Paladins plus Ferrus. However, I think the Paladins should be SERIOUSLY buffed if they're 50 points a pop. Make them 2-wound models, with 3 attacks base each, or 3-Wound 2 attacks base, though it would suit Ferrus' statline better if they were 2 wounds-3 attacks. -Evilexecutive

• I'm mostly interested in how many terrible Hearts of Iron puns and in-jokes we can sneak into this character's profile. Crazy Cryptek (talk) 09:04, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

• Not the kind of person to make jokes, wait where did you come from? I could have swore it was just Me, Mirm, and Remmy on this wiki page. Oh, and go ahead and call him Remmy, he gets annoyed when I call him remmy and will mercilessly edit my posts to replace remmy with his actual name. -Evilexecutive

People come and go as they check on this page, I've probably one of the few consistent editors to the codex since it's my original creation. And you guys can call me Remmy, I'm more used to having my internet handles shortened in interesting ways now lol. As for the Paladins, I'm actually also considering changing them from three Paladins at 150pts to two Terminator Paladins at 110pts (so a "free" upgrade), making them two miniature two miniature Captains or buffed up Paladins as they are (with Thunder hammers, shields, etc.). If we keep them as-is at 50pts each, we might be able to have them wield 4++ invulnerable save shields as well (similar to Ferrus' in design without the relic power), especially considering the prices for similarly armed units these days in 7th ed.

Also if you're talking about Ferrus "as-is" within the codex, that's a 75pt jump for a 25pt upgrade. I'd also rather have his profile remain separate from the entry since it also contains the Command Squad as already. A triple entry is too cumbersome and special characters like him deserves his own spot in the codex. Also it's not inconceivable that he'd be leading a force of his own considering he's as experienced or even more experienced than many of the Captains (all Paladins start out as Captain Nominees/Aspirants).

Also, I really like the new Lord of War Mirm added! Shame we can't use it in smaller games, but that's still an interesting addition. I have a few destructive weapons in mind that could make for interesting main weapons on a super Vaeris of sorts on a smaller points scale for the Lord of War section Remoon101 (talk) 20:18, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Chief Librarian Zecherias is one of the most battle-hardened of Librarians within the Knights Inductor Chapter, as well as having top-notch experience in negotiation with fellow humans. Despite the lack of hypnotherapy allowing the Knights Inductor to retain much more of their humanity than most Space Marines, those like Randi understood that they lack a distinct human touch at times and appointed Zecherias as his chief adviser in these regards. Well-versed in Chapter lore and as well as knowledge of the greater Imperium, his skill and advice in the dealings with the heresy-seeking Inquisition allowed the Knights Inductor to remain in relatively good standing. On the battlefield he wields the light itself to cut and bind foes that tower over his wizened head, a literally shining example to both his fellow Librarians and to his super-human compatriots...

Chief Librarian Zecherias, Trusted Adviser to Zakis Randi - 125pts

"Follow me, Brothers, I will light the path we need to take with sword and psykery!"

Name	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
Zecherias	5	4	3	3	3	3	3	10	2+

Unit Composition: 1 (Unique)

Unit Type: Infantry (Character)

Wargear: Artificer Armor, Blind & Krak Grenades, Bolt Pistol, Psychic Hood

• Blinding Light- A well-worn power sword that is studded with empowering runes extolling "light", "power" and "hope". This is a master-crafted Force sword with Blind and a special property; for every degree of success that is not denied to activate this weapon, it gains +1S and -1AP.
• Greater Wards of Nulling- Grants a 4+ Invulnerable save and +1 to Peril Rolls

Psyker: May take any of the disciplines that an Inductor Librarian can take. If he takes Sanctic powers, he counts as being from the Grey Knights when using them.

Special Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear, The Unseen, Psyker Lvl 3

• Honed by the Void- Zecherias may re-roll any two dice in the Psychic Phase.
• Warp Surge- For every Warp Charge generated in a friendly Psychic Phase, you may roll a die for each, gaining an extra Warp Charge on a 6 (these extra charges don't grant extra rolls). However Perils rolls will have a -1 modifier for that Phase.
• Binding Light- In addition to any powers selected, Zecherias knows the power Binding Light:

Warp Charge 1

Binding Light is a malediction that targets an enemy model in close combat with him. Whilst this power is in effect, that model counts as being hit by Electro-Shackles at the beginning of that Assault Phase. In subsequent turns Zecherias may choose to burn 1 WC each friendly Psychic Phase to keep the effect ongoing, though it will automatically expire if the model leaves combat.

Aww, look at this adorable guy inscribing his robes with Null runes. I do think its both odd, and strangely interesting for an ordinary human to have ATSKNF. It is good to have a human adviser on the council, though it is clear that if you're bringing the Silencer Alpha, you can't bring Zecherias. Perhaps if he's added, we should put in an option to either bring Zecherius or Rachnus(But not both) on the Aprior Sector War Council. I also think that we should keep in the theme of most of the characters having an ability dependent on them being the warlord, as they each bring their own unique command talents to the fray.

Be careful with your points values adding. Wargear costs are not and should not be the same when placed on a human body as the benefits gained differ between S3 T3 W3 and S4 T4 W4, etc. And I thought the Libarians had ATSKNF as well, but apparently they don't, which is actually strange. The fluff behind Librarians is that they're literally placed through the same trials as their super-human comrades in selection without the benefit of implants. Those who come out are more than human and less than Astartes but are considered equals by their Brothers because they passed the same trials that most humans couldn't. Remoon101 (talk) 18:44, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, ATSKNF is supposed to represent hypno-conditioning (aka brainwashing initiates with trigger switches that literally prevents them from disobeying orders and doing other stupid things). Regular humans are much more resistant to this kind of brainwashing, since they do not have Cataleptic Node, by they're not immune, so if you commit hard enough you can indoctrinate human just as hard as you can indoctrinate a marine. Mezmerro (talk) 05:53, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Another fluff thing, Rachnus is actually rarely present on the council and mainly confines himself to the deepest, most warded chambers of the Nullarium for the most part. The only times he presents himself is when things are particularly dire and they require the assistance of an Alpha Silencer. Remoon101 (talk) 18:49, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Oh, yea that was me several months ago. I noticed that the Librarians had the statline of a captain, with ATSKNF, and so I fixed that, while also removing ATSKNF. I guess now I'm mistaken for removing from them. As for calculating costs, yea I'll be more careful with it in that case. So far I believe the intrinsic value of Blinding Light and Warp Surge to total at about 6 points together. Taking your notes on accounting for the lesser intrinsic value of Artificer Armor owing to T3, I've noted that it's only worth a 10 points increase instead of twenty. The intrinsic value of "Honed by the Void" is around 4 points. Overall, no points change due to intrinsic value from 125. -Evilexecutive

Side note, how do you do that user:remmy thing in discussion pages?

To do the signature you type four tildes (the horizontal Squig-gly line near the top left of most keyboards). Remoon101 (talk) 19:05, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Testing testing testing Evilexecutive (talk) 19:06, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

This guy seems a little... Cheap. He's got nice tricks and a gimmicky power. But that sword, if you throw a single charge into it, becomes a paragon blade. 2 and it becomes an AP2 power maul. All the while having force. Also, 3 wounds. On a human? Sure, but most human characters with 3 wounds don't have nearly as good saves as this guy does and they definitely don't have mastery level 3. While it's true that he's still quite squishy, one of the defining features of the Knights so far has been expensive but good guys, bridging the gap between Grey Knights and regular marines. This guy just seems a little on the not-quite-as-pricy side. Maybe 150 or 60? Mirmidion43 (talk) 22:46, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

I've slightly increased his points cost and also added more depth to his rules, to give more choices in using him in the Psychic Phase. Also, as Mirm suggested, I am creating a Marauder special character, but not in the way you would expect! He's going to be a combination of two characters I had in mind as well as a spiritual incarnation of one of this codex's old characters from the past. Remoon101 (talk) 00:49, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

OK HERE'S AN INSANE MIXUP OF A CHARACTER ENTRY:

Sergeant Jonnahas Regius, The Legendary Ghost of The Lost Workshop Incident

Sergeant Jonnahas is listed in the Halls of Remembrance on all of the Knights Inductor Battle Barges as an Honorary Brother Commandant of the Recruits. He had served with full honors during his tour of duty in the Guard Aspirants, but was unable to receive the implants due to a minor latent psychic talent. However he respectfully refused to return to Astra Militarum as an commander or the Scions Tempestus as a high-ranking officer. He chose to continue his trial to become an Astartes alongside the few other human Librarian recruits. Being an anomaly, Zakis Randi decided to test the stubborn Jonnahas and have him endure the Trials of Initiation that all augmented recruits (and unaugmented potential Librarians) go through to become Astartes. Though the trials were not meant for a human to take, he persevered when his body could no longer go on, standing at the end of the trials victorious, unconscious, by his sheer force of will.

He was chosen by the eccentric Maestro Gajet on occasion as an unaugmented test pilot for many of his creations, the last of which was the (now lost) Savior-Pattern Marauder Terminator Suit. Lost in the fierce battle to contain the daemonic incursion of the Warp Technology Workshop to allow the researchers to flee with precious data, he was last seen holding off a Khorne Greater Daemon when it appeared that the fail-safe on the suit was detonated. However fate seemed to have other plans for the Ghost of the Lost Workshop, as continued sightings of the suit have been reported at times, though the reports remain for the most part unsubstantiated...

Ghost Sergeant Jonnahas, The Legend of Tertius Prime - 60pts

"My brothers-in-arms... you have done more than enough. Go! I will hold these monsters off for as long as I can!"

Name	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
Ghost	5	5	3	3	2	3	3	9	4+
Armored	5	5	4	6	4	3	3	9	2+

Unit Composition: Ghost

Unit Type: Infantry (Unique)

Wargear: Ghost: Trooper Armor, Seismic Charge, Blind & Krak grenades, Hot-shot lasgun, bolt pistol, locator beacon. Armored Ghost: Savior-Pattern Marauder Armor

• Savior-Pattern Marauder Armor: Is Marauder armor with Relentless, Omni-Targeting Systems and Fail-Safe. It is armed with two Hunter Killer missiles, a twin-linked Skybolt Missile Launcher, two Seismic Charges, an Assault Cannon, and a Chainfist w/ Built-in Cerberus Launcher. Includes a locator beacon, Aceso and a Bulwark Guardian Shield that it benefits from. It allows for two jump pack moves per game.
• Omni-Targeting Systems- May fire up to three weapons per Shooting phase at different targets.
• Fail-safe- A bomb attached to the life signals of the Savior Marauder suit. Should Armored Ghost or the Automated Suit lose its last wound, resolve a S8 AP2 6" explosion centered over the model before removing it.

Options:

• May be armored in the Savior Pattern Marauder Armor (gaining the Armored profile shown above) for: +170pts

Special Rules: (Ghost); And They Shall Know No Fear, The Unseen, Deep Strike, Independent Character, Stubborn. (Armored Ghost); Fearless, The Unseen, Rampage, Deep Strike

• Out-Numbered, Never Out-Gunned- If there are more enemy units within 24" than friendly units, Ghost (and Armored Ghost) and the unit he is in may fire a second time in the same phase at a second unit with Snap Shots.
• Let's Get Tactical!- Friendly Knight Inductor units within 6" Ghost or Armored Ghost gain Split Fire and Pinning tests they and Jonnahas inflict are taken with a -2Ld modifier.
• Grand Skyfall- The turn Armored Ghost Deep Strikes, you may choose to emit a shockwave 6" around his landing point after scatter, dealing D6+5 S4 AP6 hits with Strikedown to all units in the area.

Legend of [Planet Name] up for change. Remoon101 (talk) 00:58, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Call me completely and utterly confused. This whole thing is just a massive, WUT to me. I have no clue how this is supposed to work, and it could probably be just simplified by keeping it to the animated suit of armor worn by a long-dead pilot.Evilexecutive (talk) 01:14, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Yeah I don't know either. I'll probably make it just the Armored Ghost profile coming from orbit with Grand Skyfall. This initial splurge was just that: a splurge of ideas. Somewhere in there I think the Titanfall game stuck in my head for a bit. In any case, this is a VERY rough first draft

I think I originally wanted him to be able to lead a Guard Aspirant squad (to show his glory days) and then have the option of a mix of test pilot and his final last stand. I'll probably eliminate the Automated version and rules completely and maybe have the option of Ghost/Armored Ghost Remoon101 (talk) 01:17, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Here's my take on the guy: instead of him being incapable of passing the physical checks, he had weak latent psychic powers that prevented his being compatible with the Knights Inductor Gene Seed. However, he was accepted on grounds of his extraordinary mental prowess (although he wasn't psychic directly) and brought into the Knights in almost exactly the same manner as a Librarian. When he received the beatdown, his latent power and hugely powerful will meshed with the extraordinarily powerful machine spirit of his suit (almost exactly like an AI, but never mind that) and his mind and the suit's melded, creating this...thing... that works under the Knights as the character Ghost. I could work with that, I really could. Even produce some writefaggotry. Mirmidion43 (talk) 09:27, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

A few small discrepancies with his rules. 1) That Fail Safe is bollocks on multiple levels, both for the strength and size of the explosion. That's like a "Superheavy dies, Roll for Anal Circumference" explosion. 2) The "Out Numbered, Never Out-Gunned" rule is quite severely broken, as most of the time, the guy will be running with Marauders, who already possess huge amounts of Dakka, or in his smaller incarnation, makes that rule stupidly OP for a 50pt model. 3) No Invuln. On the most advanced personal warsuit that the Knights possess. 4) Why the random Jump movements? He'll be running with Marauders 90% of the time, it seems a little pointless. Mirmidion43 (talk) 08:40, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Also, I have a suggestion for a rule that gets added when he buys the armour: Something to represent that he is literally a ghost or AiCombinedWithHuman abomination that would set anyone on edge, like him dropping Ld from the unit and/or them being unable to use his leadership. Thoughts? Mirmidion43 (talk) 08:40, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

At the time that he's using the suit he's not with any other unit. I've changed it so that he does not have Independent Character if he is armored. I've decreased the range and strength of the Fail-Safe explosion. I've decreased the BS of the 2nd time firing to Snap Shots. He gets no Invul, and that's correct. Instead I've made it so that he benefits from the Bulwark Guardian Shield he carries. Don't ask why it doesn't have an Invul, only that crazy Gajet would know :P He has a faux jump pack for the armor, but limited uses due to how much power they have to expend to give that kind of movement. I may make it so that he can only be deployed with Guard Aspirants in his unarmored form... Remoon101 (talk) 17:19, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

New Unit - Hitori Pattern Armoured Landspeeders

Now, I know that this section isn't for units, but i can't be bothered putting this in its own section. So, a new unit for the Knights Inductor, the Hitori Pattern Swarmers are a unit of speedy skimmers designed to deal with the jetbikes, skimmers and flyers that are so commonly encountered in the Xeno arsenals. The traditional Space Marine armoury (prior to the release of the Stalker/Hunter but the Knights never got them) lacks a method to deal with this issue, so the Knights, as they are want to do, developed their own solution. The Hitori Swarmers are a series of 1 man very light vehicles built for speed and dakka, but are too heavy to be called Jetbikes. They can be optimised for both anti-tank and anti heavy infantry (bikes and jetbikes, namely). They come in numbers ranging from 2-6 and rely on these numbers to swarm targets that usually keep out of being mobbed by superior mobility. They look pretty similar to miniature storm talons, minus the tail and engines and instead with the land speeder's anti grav generators (an example of the application of reverse engineered grav manipulation tech). They are slightly larger than the land speeder, but considerably smaller than the stormtalon. Mirmidion43 (talk) 09:28, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Hitori Pattern Armoured Landspeeders - 120pts "Dark Eldar Jetbikes and Venoms sighted, travelling fast. Tracking patterns engaged, predictive engines triggered, flight path locked. Engaging the enemy!"

Name	BS	FA	SA	RA	HP
Hitori Landspeeder	4	11	10	10	2

Unit Composition: 2 Hitori Pattern Armoured Landspeeders

Unit Type: Fast Skimmer

Wargear: Twin Linked Plasma Gun

• Predictive Flight Module -The primary use of the Hitori Landspeeder is as a counter to the speed and manoeuvrability of Xeno technology that often allows them to evade the guns of the Emperor with ease. As such, the Hitori Landspeeder possesses a predictive machine spirit and program that allows it to track the flight path of enemies and predict their moves. The Predictive Flight Module gives the Hitori Landspeeder the ability to choose at the start of the turn to gain the Skyfire Special Rule. In addition, all Jink saves taken against shots coming from a Hitori Landspeeder have a -1 modifier.
• Gravitic Isolation Chamber -In order to keep pace with the often incredibly fast opponents that the Hitori Landspeeder is forced to face, the Gravitic Isolation Chamber keeps the pilot within a space where the effects of his machine's flight has no impact on gravity, preventing G-forces from taking an impact. Reverse engineered from Spaceship Gravity control devices that prevent the crew from being killed as the ship manoeuvres, the system allows the pilot to push his unusually fast machine to the limit and even fire at top speed, although accuracy is cut. The Hitori Pattern Swarmer gains an additional 6" of movement to its cruising speed and Flat Out speed. In addition, on a turn that it goes Flat Out, it can still fire a weapon at a -2 BS penalty.

Options:

• May take up to 4 additional Hitori Pattern Swarmers: +60 pts a model.
• May take an additional Twin Linked Plasma Gun: +15 pts a model
• May replace any set of Twin Linked Plasma Guns with:

- Grav Mass Driver: free! - Twin Linked Meltagun: free! - Twin Linked Assault Cannon: +10 pts

Thoughts? Mirmidion43 (talk) 10:35, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

They seem like a great idea but honestly, they don't actually really fulfill any big gaps in the Knights Inductor army. The Tempest alone has the tracking ability to be able to take down speedy moving targets, and we already have Skimmers of our own that are Fast and could keep up with any Xenos Fast skimmer. A fluff note: we are not masters of gravity yet, and don't have gravitic drives as of yet. That was one key technology that was actually removed in the 1st or 2nd codex overhaul because it's just a bit too advanced for simple reverse engineering. The Gravitic Isolation chamber alone sounds like an echo of the inertialess drives that were supposed to be redacted from Aprior/KI technology.

Also Hitori Swarmer sounded so Xenos like that I was wondering briefly if I was in the Codex: Covenant discussion page, I'm not kidding. It doesn't sound like a Knights Inductor vehicle and if you look at our Fast Attack and Heavy sections, they're getting a bit bloated for another unit that doesn't add something that we might already have.

OK, criticisms aside, I think you've got some interesting things going on with the Predictive Flight Module and the alternative weaponry. I'd say if you could find a way to integrate this with our current Land Speeders, you might have something really good going. It's not inconceivable for the Knights to modify a current skimmer to achieve the goals that you set here. The Gravitic Isolation chamber in fluff is not good, but the crunch could be instead converted to say, a stabilizer for Land Speeders that would allow for those benefits. We notably lack the Landspeeder Storm currently so maybe you could make a Hitori-Pattern Landspeeder or the like. Remoon101 (talk) 17:33, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

One more note, if cap the Fast Attack number of units as the same amount of Heavy units we have. This would have to be last addition to that section, so I'm concerned with making it a good one :) Remoon101 (talk) 17:36, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

The Isolation chamber I literally ripped from Return Of The Reasonable Marines - it's mentioned on the train as how they can accelerate and decelerate so fast by creating a bubble of no gravity inside the train. I didn't even think about the Fleet or Intertialess Drives. Is it still a no-go, because in that context it's literally the example used by Artisan Zora to explain the grav manipulation tech the Apriori have developed. As for the name, I used the Japanese translation for "one" in the context of "one man", so I can see now it might sound a little Halo-esque. The concept of a specialist vehicle designed to deal with one of the main issues that the Knights face is perfectly fluffy in my mind. Mirmidion43 (talk) 22:51, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

I made the things as a counter to things like Raiders, Venoms, Dark Eldar "ICanTurboBoost36Inches" Jetbikes, Nounscythes and FalconChassis that can all Turbo Boost 24" with a 5pt upgrade and are all Skimmers and are thus really hard to keep up with and lock down. The only things we have that can follow are the Flyers and kind of the Land Speeders, but even they are too slow. And they can't shoot up. Land Speeders in fluff are mainly recon units and thus are a little more lightly armoured and armed as a base and will avoid doing the job that the Hitori is designed for unless they specifically have been ordered to do so and outfitted for the task. The Hitori are designed for the task, fast enough to keep pace and can track their movements to the point of weakening the greatest strength of the Xeno - Jinking for 3+ cover. Mirmidion43 (talk) 22:51, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

As a note the Return of the Reasonable Marines is pretty suspect to a rewrite, as its one of the faulted pieces of writefaggotry most people have found with the Knights Inductor in general, so taking things from it directly is a bit risky. However maybe you could spin it as a miniaturized version of ship-board gravity fields and keep it in that way.

I just noticed that it can Skyfire, that's pretty interesting, I think as is it's ok in crunch. The swarmer part of the name is still bugging me though heheh. So maybe Hitori-Pattern Landspeeder? I like how it attempts to bridge the gap in between speeders and flyers/faster skimmers. Remoon101 (talk) 01:07, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Changed to Hitori Pattern Armoured Landspeeder in name, and added the ship gravity methods to the entry on the Gravitic Isolation Chamber. Mirmidion43 (talk) 05:01, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

On a side note, I have noticed that some people don't like Return of the Reasonable Marines. Why is that? It was the writing that kind of set the whole Knights Inductor thing going properly after the Investigation piece. It kind of forms the base of the entire concept. I get that some people don't like elements such as Ardi (although, it does make sense as a concept) and the pretty welcoming and open attitude to the training of marines, even Silencers and Nulls. I just don't get why they don't like those elements, I personally quite like Return of the Reasonable Marines. Mirmidion43 (talk) 05:01, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Refer to why everyone hated 4e Tau, or why "My Immortal" is widely believed to be the worst fanfic ever written. Simply not grimdark enough, bordering on Mary-sue level of stuff. Return of the Reasonable Marines pretty much put the Knights Inductor up as BLATANT mary sues, who have absolutely everything and never fail. People hate Knights Inductor for the very reason they hated 4e Tau, and still hate Grey Knights, because they're "Apparently perfect". If anyone's to get Knights Inductor taken seriously, they would have to completely rewrite ROTRM from the ground up to remove nearly every aspect of it that makes them Mary Sues. You have to give them bits where they fail, where they FUCK UP, and demonstrate on a crucial level that they are inherently flawed in a number of distinct ways. Make them grimdark to fit the setting, but that's secondary to making them flawed, rather than totally distinct and 'perfect'.Evilexecutive (talk) 05:22, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

There needs to be a great many things they have done wrong, and have to atone for. The Knights Inductor have a potential to be a great addition to the game, but ROTRM holds them back tremendously.Evilexecutive (talk) 05:22, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, there's quite a bit of available material for expansion present in Return of the Reasonable Marines if you like grimdark. The Hall of Remembrance. That's a great source of material for new stories about the Knights. Also the Warp Technology Workshop. Maybe play up the impact that the Orks and Necrons have had on the sector. The Tyranids have eaten one planet and then stopped due to the blank gene shenanigans, but their motives remain unknown. The Eldar are still standoffish dicks that are worried about the Knights because they can't scry their intentions due to the presence of Silencers. And the conservative Inquisitors are bearing down on the sector. There's plenty in ROTRM, you just have to look. Mirmidion43 (talk) 05:56, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

One thing that I think needs to actually get played up more is the interesting relationship that the Knights have with the Tau, specifically the Farsight Enclaves vs Regulars thing. There's little material currently out there and I reckon we need to get more stuck into that. Mirmidion43 (talk) 05:56, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Guys, not to be a dick or anything but further discussion of the Return of the Reasonable Marines should be continued on the talk page for the actual story itself, rather than here on the codex discussion page. Remoon101 (talk) 19:25, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Ok, back to the point, am I adding these things, are we changing them a bit more THEN adding them, or is this a scrapped project. I for one quite like them. Mirmidion43 (talk) 08:58, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Gravitic Isolation Chamber fluff is weird. Marines already can survive insane G-force - drop-pods actually KILL ordinary humans. I doubt sub-sonic speeder, no matter how maneuverable, is more dangerous than a drop-pod slowing from "meteoric descent" to "earth-shattering" in few seconds before landing, and then crashing to the ground. 10:10, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

The fluff on Dark Eldar vehicles and jet bikes state that even marines cannot normally pilot them at the speeds that the Eldar manage - they don't have the reaction time to deal with the cornering while under the forces involved. Key point is the last bit and comes from the Dark Eldar book. They'd need to remove the forces involved in order to be able to match the reaction times required to keep up. Mirmidion43 (talk) 11:02, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Gravitic thingie gadjet does not improve marine reaction time to eldar level in any way. Mezmerro (talk) 11:14, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Uhhh, that's not what I said at all. If you misunderstood, what I meant was that in order to be able to compete with the Eldar at all, not match them. Just keep up. Without the effects of the Grav, they can just barely compete in the same league. WITH the grav, don't even think about it. It's necessary to be able to get to vaguely the same area, not to match them. Mirmidion43 (talk) 12:33, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

New unit incoming! This is probably one of the last ones I'm writing for this codex, as I think this will help to round out our Elites section enough. Nulls and blanks are unable to manipulate their aura, but with the implantation of the Knight Inductor gene seed, they can be trained to control and use their aura as a dark weapon cutting through the Warp. Knights Inductor Paladins mainly stem from those curious cases where latent nulls are born spontaneously through the activation of the Knight Inductor gene-seed, despite never having previously displayed the signs of a blank. Though they can never reach the power potential of even the least experienced Silencer Primaris, these Silencer Minoris can easily channel their newfound auras beyond that of ordinary nulls. They are commonly sent along with more powerful Silencers as part of the Chapter's tithe of null warriors to the greater Imperium to be sent to hellish Warp Incursions and Chaos Ritual sites in order to handle the odd situations where the Grey Knights cannot be sent for various reasons.

Knights Inductor Paladins - 110pts

"Part the Empyrean, Smite the Daemon, Silence the Witch!"

Name	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
Paladin	5	4	4	4	2	4	2	10	2+

Unit Composition: 2 Inductor Paladins

Unit Type: Infantry (Character)

Wargear: Terminator Armor, Storm bolter, Blind & Krak Grenades, Null-Amps

• Vorpal Null Halberd- The weapon designs for the Nemesis Force Halberds were gifted to the knights by the Ordo Malleus. In the Nullarium's hands, they have been reforged from the same materials as other Null-weapons. They have the following profile:

Name	Range	S	AP	type
Null Halberd	Melee	+1	3	Melee, Two-Handed, Null Edge*

• Null Edge- The Null Halberd is a Null Weapon that allows the model to re-roll failed rolls to wound against models with the Daemon or Psyker special rules if it is activated.

Options:

• May include up to 4 additional Paladins for: +55pts per model.
• May take bolt ammo from Squad Issue Wargear
• Any Paladin may exchange their Null Halberd for a master-crafted Null Weapon: free!
• Any Paladin may take an Iron Halo: +5pts
• One Paladin may take an Aceso: +25pts

Special Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear, Empyrean Anathema, Fear, Fire Teams, The Unseen

• Silencer Minoris- The Paladin unit is a Silencer unit with a Mastery Level of 1. The unit follows all the normal rules for Silencers, with the following clarification:
  • When manifesting a psychic power, this unit measures range and line of sight from, and uses the characteristics profile (if required) of, anyone one model in the unit that has the Silencer Minoris rule (controlling player's choice).
  • The unit generates a number of Null Charges equal to the number of Paladins in the unit, rather than the Mastery Level of the Silencer unit
  • The Silencer unit can only use Unleash Aura, Null Drain and Force to activate the unit's Null Weapons

Heh, amusingly enough these guys mean that we can easily play Knights Inductor a little closer to Grey Knights, and then have an excuse to actually use Grey Knight models for this. Anyway, I've renamed the halberds, though I do think they could use with a more 'arthurian' name that might be more suitable. Nemesis Halberds doesn't fit the theme of the army in terms of naming.Evilexecutive (talk) 23:46, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Bingo! Vorpal Null Halberds! Remoon101 (talk) 23:49, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

VORPAL HALBERDS. Yes, now we can chuckle quietly as our knights are clearly equiped to slay Jabberwocks, in the unlikely event someone-.. Aww screw it, wouldn't surprise me one bit if /tg/ were to ever create a "Hive fleet Jabberwock" at some point.Evilexecutive (talk) 23:58, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

These guys seem quite balanced, with a single point of contention. If we compare then to Grey Knight Paladins, we have the literal exact same statline, same termi armour, same storm bolter and same price. Then we have a few differences. The Halberds cost the Grey Knights 2pts a model, although from there they are practically identical and Grey Knight Paladins can take hammers and so forth, where the next best thing that the Inductor Paladins can get is a null axe. My real bugbear, then, is the Silencer Minoris rule. Compared to the Grey Knights Brotherhood of Psykers and rules that let them use Sanctic powers, we have for the Grey Knights a greater range of powers, getting Banishment, Hammerhand and Force, as opposed to just Unleash Aura and Force, the raft of anti daemon rules and the whole rerolling 1's to deny thing. In contrast, the Inductor Paladins get a million null charges, as each guy craps out his own charge, as opposed to just one for Brotherhood of Psykers. Also, if one man triggers his Null Weapon, that means that ONLY he triggered his null weapon, not the whole squad, leading to problems later down the line with remembering who has what power off. I think that, like Grey Knight Paladins, these Paladins should be a Brotherhood of Silencers, as it eliminates a number of problems from the list. Aside from that minor issue, 2 wound terminators! Mirmidion43 (talk) 02:07, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Commandant Armor Tester- 125pts

"Commandant MkI Armor powered up, all vitals are normal, Black Carapace link-up successful, weapon-locks disengaged. Commandant Jexin, now taking the field!"

Placeholder for Fluff/Narrative

Name	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
Commandant	5	5	4	4	2	4	2	10	2+

Unit Composition: 1 Commandant (Character)

Unit Type: Infantry

Wargear: Aceso, Bolt Pistol, Bolter, Heavy Bolter, Chainsword, Graviton & Krak Grenades

• Commandant Armor - A powerful prototype eventually meant to eventually become the standard for commanders in the Knights Inductor, replete with a full communications suite and a stabilized shoulder mount for heavy weapons. Grants a 2+ armor save, and the model benefits from Relentless and Powered Gun Platform. Friendly Knights Inductor units within 6" may use the Commandant's leadership for Morale and Pinning checks.

Special Rules: And They Shall Know No Fear, Independent Character, Omnissiah's Bounty, Suppression Tactics

Options:

• May take a storm shield: +15pts
• May take Tac-sense: +15pts
  • If Tac-sense is purchased, he may also take an Automated Up-link: +25pts
• May take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, Squad Issue Wargear, and Special Issue Wargear lists
• May take any number of items from the Experimental Infantry Wargear list
• May replace shoulder-mounted Heavy Bolter for any of the following:

-Heavy Flamer: free!

-Mk40 Plasma Cannon, Multi-Melta: +5pts

-Lascannon, Assault Cannon: +10pts

-Bulwark Guardian Shield: +10pts

I have removed them from the main codex as I'm trying to trim down on extraneous elements. Remoon101 (talk) 18:35, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Incoming Super Heavies

This edition seems to be all about D strength weapons and super heavies. I would hate to disappoint. So, in accordance with the Knights maintaining their battle readiness to the times, adding the Maxima Pattern Marauder Warsuit. It's essentially a scaled up Marauder Suit to the level of a Knight Titan. It combines elements of Marauder Suits, Knight Titans and Bulwark Dreadnoughts. It's primarily defensive (no way to have a second primary weapon) and it has a choice of two main weapons - the Bastard Child of a Grav Accelerator Cannon and a Plasma Blast Gun and a Halberd that glows strongly, to the point it inflicts difficult blind checks when it kills shit and is wielded in a way designed to murder big stuff. However, since the knights would only use the thing as a weapon of last resort, I gave it the rule "When Needed Only" which keeps it out of small games, only used when it is truly needed, in accordance with Knights fluff. The AAMA is essentially a 10 shot AAMR built into the chest that can be replaced with a battle cannon for free. Its shield is better than a regular Knights because it gives up a gun to have it. Finally, the thing can buy a quad gun for the top. Thoughts? -Mirmidion43

It feels massively underpriced for what it does, as for 500 points you can have a Titan that basically counters everything. A Vulcan Mega Bolter that Pins, Anti-titan melee attack, Anti-everything ranged attack, Interceptor Quad-gun, and Power of the Machine Spirit so it can rape two opponenets at the same time. I'm having a hard time figuring out just how many points this damn thing is actually worth, as I've never worked with anything this big. Also, Props for stealing the gun off the XV-202, and MAD internet points to the first person to actually blow all their money on building a Maxima Marauder. -Evilexecutive

Wait, I thought that you had to choose between Nuclear CC power and Nuclear Ranged power. The wording is clear - the Grav Bombardier OR the Prismatic Halberd. Without the Halberd, its CC power is a lot weaker than the next comparable competitor, the Knight Titans. And without the Gun, it's essentially a Gallant with more defensive power. Hence its base cost is 125pts higher than a Gallant. And the AAMA isn't even close to a Vulcan Mega Bolter - the 5 extra shots and 2 points of Strength really make significant difference. If you want the quad gun, the cost goes to 500. The enhanced Machine Spirit is there mostly for fluff- Super Heavies could split fire anyways automatically. -Mirmidion43

It's not inconceivable that we could buff up the Vaeris, or move the Land Raider Athena to the Lords of War Section, or possibly even remake the Athena so that it has a Strength D weapon and is a Lord of War. Welcome to the Renae Descartes edition of Warhammer 40k. Anyway, the 25% rule applies to any Lord of War, so it's plausible to have smaller Lords of War that can be taken in smaller games, though 500 points is the most common form of them. Though I am loathe to admit that we're at the point in this game where it has rapidly devolved into War of the Codexes, "Desperately scrambling to compete with Eldar" -Evilexecutive

Rene Descartes knows what needs to be done this edition, and we must all heed his advice.

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/690/840/3ac.jpg

I do believe the Athena could be right at home in the Lord of War section, considering its destructive power. If we buff the HGAC it should only be Strength D underneath the center of the template, all else being 8/3 for the large blast and 10/2 for the piercing hit from Path of Destruction.

I'm working on a Vaeris upgraded with a few old weapons from an old, old iteration of this codex that was taken out for being too OP at the time. Will take some tuning down but we'll see. Remoon101 (talk) 22:51, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Okay so I suck at making Super-Heavies, instead I made a more powerful Predator Vaeris. It fires a specially designed crystalline prism with 0.01x10^-13 (made up number) imperfections into the midst of the enemy, quickly followed by a focused lascannon blast. The crystal simultaneously splits, amplifies and focuses the beams all around it in midair striking everything within a certain radius. While not particularly powerful compared to Strength D weapons it can still do some nasty damage if fired right into the middle of the enemy army. Could do with some more buffs and maybe interesting rules (I was thinking sponson-mounted generators that add to the Strength, and can be destroyed to decrease it). Remoon101 (talk) 20:25, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

*Squeals with fangirly delight* Hehe, oh I adore this thing, beautiful design. I'm a pretty big fan anyway of Arthurian tales. The whole deal with the Apocalyptic Blast Lascannon is damned amusing, and I can't wait to try it in one of my games. I didn't like how it was so fragile though, being a LOW with only 4 Hull Points, so I gave it a 50+ point increase and put a Void Shield on it, named directly after the Sheathe of Excalibur that makes its wielder invincible. Though for obvious reasons, the fusion reactors for it's main gun and shield would explode like a titan when destroyed. ^_^

Wow, I just realized that it also fits in with the whole Knight theme. I didn't even intend it for that, I just liked the name Avalon *laugh track*. I've had that weapon profile in my store of crunch ideas for a while and I think this codex used to have it in the past before I overhauled 95% of the super-tech that the Knights shouldn't and couldn't have had. As a Lord of War option I believe that it could be more appropriately added as a option in that section. Some nerfs I applied before putting it in were 18" radius to 12" (once I realized that it would've been a 36" diameter, which is insane) as well as reducing the number of possible hits on other units from 2D6 to D6+3. Remoon101 (talk) 22:09, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

I just had a peek at it, I like it quite a bit, although it was overpriced. So I buffed it. I gave it way more void shields and incredible speed as well as a slight shift to the main gun. The idea is sound, and with its current defences and mobility, it is extremely fast and tanky but slightly lacks hitting power, which sits with me fine for the Knights fluff. The name is cool and appropriate. BTW, i'm glad you said that 0.01 x 10^(-13) was a made up number because that amounts to 1e -15 or 0.000000000000001 flaws. It has so few flaws that it's perfect to the naked eye and to most standard microscopes. Yet is designed to kill shit by refracting through the flaws present in the crystal.

I'd actually rather it have more punch to it than to add other rules at this point if it's still over costed. I've increased the max range by 12", increased number of possible hits on non-vehicle units by D6, and added the Blind special rule. I'm refraining from increasing the radius for obvious reasons. As for the flaws in the crystal, it's never specified if it's a solid one or even a real crystal as we know it in 015.M2 but what I do know is that the tolerances for it to work the way it does is extremely low Remoon101 (talk) 22:36, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

And just a small request as the Avalon's creator, I like it as it is right now (it's got contributions from us three main editors) so any further adjustments should just be points, or more drastic changes should be suggested here first Remoon101 (talk) 22:55, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Alright, well I am going to open it up to talking for one last point, seeing as everything else seems alright. The Excalibur Cannon had it's RAW meaning it inflicts 2d6+3 'hits' against all units within 12" of the center. That's not so bad against like conscripts and Orks where you have 100+ man squads, but against armies like Space Marines and Chaos, this can easily result in the Excalibur Wiping out the entirety, or very large % of an army in a single shot Something like Tactical Squad 1 gets 7 Lascannon hits, Squad 2 gets 6 hits, Squad 3 gets 8 hits, Squad 4 gets 12 hits, all of which are S9 AP2. I want to change it so that the Blast additional hits are a Dicepool of hits, and you choose where they go.

There seems to be two schools of thought developing about how the Avalon's main gun should work, so i'm going to quickly summarise them here and ask which one is flatly the more balanced. Because unless we can actually balance the Avalon properly, I don't see its point. 1) Every unit within Y is hit for X many shots. 2) X hits can be distributed among squads within Y. 1 generates a higher average of shots and works more like a blast template (albeit a really big one). 2 allows for a far more precise use of the shots generated in sniping a specific squad. 1 will have a more consistent total number of hits as each squad is rolled for separately. 2 is far more influenced by a single outlier roll, ranging from shite to stellar. Both "feel" kind of like the Knights in how they would work. So, which one are we going with and why, because I can see this turning into an edit war. -Mirmidion43

My idea of the splattering of shots everywhere is that it the original shots coming from the prism being hit by the focused lascannon (or whatever) blast is almost entirely random. It's pure mayhem and piercing laser beams flying everywhere, hence why almost everything except for the fact everything's hit is random. Also the way it was written is that you could put D3 + 2D6+3 hits on a vehicle because the wording didn't specify non-vehicle. I have reverted it before I buffed the number of hits since Evilexecutive didn't say anything about it then so I'm assuming he would be fine with it. Remoon101 (talk) 00:12, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

About Maxima Marauder - why does it have 13 pts rear armour? So far pretty much all SHs, except Necron ones had a significantly weaker rear, which encourages deep-striking behind it and flanking it despite the hight risks.Mezmerro (talk) 22:23, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Can we get any of the people who worked on the Maxima in on this? This is a valid point and is worth discussing. I'm in favor of lowering the rear armor. That increasing the cost to compensate accordingly. Remoon101 (talk) 23:11, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

The Maxima Marauder was entirely my idea and I came up with it in one go in one (K)night. There are going to be issues. That being said, I had two reasons for it to have 13 all round: Firstly, it's simply a huge Marauder suit and they have armour that is equally powerful on all sides, without bias. The second reason is that the Maxima is, ultimately, defensive. It's designed to lock down areas and buff those in its surroundings, while being a rock against ambushes and power strikes equally. That's why I scrapped its second weapon in exchange for a universal angle shield and cover aura as well as the extra armour. If you think it's still underpriced (I believe that it balances quite well - it's already more expensive than a regular Knight and has to choose between shooty or choppy, unlike them) then post that opinion here! Mirmidion43 (talk) 08:25, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, my point of balance issues with Maxima is that it can fire two accurate D-strengths shots OR three Demolisher shots. From across the table and then some. Two-shot D-gun means Maxima can one-shot pretty much anything lighter than Titan from a safe distance, just like a WraithKnight, but unlike WK it can also deal with infantry with it's blast mode and chest gun. If I had to choose between Knight Warden with two guns and Maximma without any other toys but his sexy cannon I would always choose Maxima. Compared to that goodness, glavie is rather pathetic, and I see no reason anyone would ever take it.

Also it have a solid 4+ invuln without any downsides or weak spots, while most other SHs any Gks have 5+ at best, or an ion Shield, that only covers one side.

The key point is: it have no weaknesses. It can deal with anything. It have no hard counters. It projects a huge bubble of cover. It's 5E Grey Knight level perfect. And we all know how people felt about 5e GKs.

To make it clear - the problem is not that it's too powerful (300 pts more would get you a Warhound with 4 D-strength pie plates), but that it's powerful against everything (said Warhound could be melted in one turn by a pair veteran squads or crisis teams, deep-striking behind it) Mezmerro (talk) 09:11, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Ok, although any vehicle ever is scared of mass melta guns - two meltacide squads will likely drop it (the AV 12/13 issue is negligent against melta) right through the shield - its not as though it has cremate shielding. And other D weapons, hell, even mass lascanonns or a railgun or two scare it shitless. Trust me, the 4+ is good, but not brilliant and will ALWAYS fail you on key rolls (see my battle report of marauder spam and see that I didn't pass a SINGLE 4+ invuln all game). The real defensive strength is the cover buff aura. And that won't help the big guy. A little bit of number crunching sees that a single 5 man stern guard squad with 2 meltas and 3 combi meltas will drop in with a drop pod, hit him 3 1/3 times, pen him 3 times and then he'll make 1.5 of those saves. With a 5+ roll, that pen becomes D3 more. 10 Sternguard with meltas will statistically drop him to 1 HP in a single round of shooting, assuming that the D3 pen was only a 2. A long strike railgun shell will hit him for a pen around 40% of the time. Well, aside, suggestions for change are welcome. 11:06, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

OK, let's compare maxima MArauder to the "classic" non-optimized Warhound with Blasma Blastgun and Vulkan Megabolter. For almost twice the points (790) you get:

1) +1 Front armour, -1 rare armour. Not really much better.

2) +3 HP, +2 Void SHields, no invuln, no cover-generating field. 11 HP (two of which are void shields) without invuln are actually WORSE than 6 with 4++.

3) The gun that fires three large blasts with three less Strength and one less AP, or one 7" blast of the same strength, have no D-strength, no Lance, not jink-ingnore and half the range. All-around worse than Maxima's TBGB

4) The gun that fires 5 more shots, at one more strength (+87% estimated wounds against marines) - well, at least this one is better than AAMA

5) initiative and attacks of 1

This doesn't look very balanced...

As for suggestions:

- Lower it's invuln, or make it directed Ion-shield style. Start it with a glavie for 350-400 pts as a Knight equivalent. MAybe reduce the AV to Knight level too. Then add the option to switch glavie for one of the two separate guns for extra points - either D-strengths mode of TBGB, or a WAY weaker version of the blast mode (see plasma blastgun stats for inspiration). And no quad-gun option - Knights only get their icarus autacannons because they have no other anti-air sources in all-knight lists. Mezmerro (talk) 11:29, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

That Titan would cost the EXACT SAME if you gave it the double two shot D Large Blasts which blows the Maxima's firepower out of the water. That isn't even comparable - the titan is dropping entire units with the same ease as anything else, while the Maxima struggles to damage one to the same extent. Also, Warhounds can take Legacies of Glory, which add buffs way beyond the Maxima. Also, the Titan gets regenerating Void Shields on a 5+ as well as IWND, giving it regeneration to put the Maxima to shame. The Warhound is also faster, and is far more capable of crushing units with Tank Shock due to the size of the base. The warhound is also massively more resilient to frontal shots as the jump from 13-14 puts Missile launchers (the most common anti tank weapon that gets spammed) looses a lot of its potency. To top this all off, the titan only costs 720 points, not the extra 70 that materialised in your judgement. Mirmidion43 (talk) 12:15, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

In addition, compare it to a baseline Knight. You get +1 armour on the sides and rear, a universal shield and the cover save aura. The Knight by comparison gets optimised Dakka and Choppa (The Maxima Marauder will do one job slightly better but the regular knight will blow the other field out of the park in comparison while doing both at the same time), as well as the chance to be a Seneschal (one WILL be if it's your primary), a shield that can be positioned to deal with most issues, barring deep strikers that get really lucky and don't kill themselves on scatter coming in within 6" of a Giant Model. All this for being 75 pts cheaper. This comparison sees the Maxima look a lot more reasonable. Mirmidion43 (talk) 12:15, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

To be fair, in that comparison, you only looked at the aspects that most enhanced your point, rather than being objective. It isn't nearly that bad. Also, Warhounds can be parked in a corner to take advantage of the LUDICROUS height advantage and huge range to threat the entire board while covering the sides and rear from deepstrikers, something the Maxima isn't even close to as good as, due to being half the height. Mirmidion43 (talk) 12:15, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

My point remains the same: dakka-maxima in it's current state can deal with anything anywhere within LoS, and give it have no official model ore modeling guidelines you can make it as tall as you want. It have the firepower and durability of 75% of Titan and insane versatility for the combined cost of Knight and ADL (the closest thing to purchasable cover I could find - 4+ but immobile, unlike the Maxima). With a Glavie it becomes overpriced Warden with better armour, worse gun, and a cover bubble. Mezmerro (talk) 12:38, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

If you want cover saves, take the Bulwark Dread. It's a lot cheaper for superior punching power. But that's beside the point. Adding modelling notes should be easy. I can just say that it roughly matches a Knight Titan. Done deal. As for Firepower, the pimped out Laser Destroyer warhound titan outdoes the Maxima around 3 times in dakka, WITHOUT factoring legacies of glory into things - like Ignores Cover. So, as far as I can see, the problem you have is with Dakka mode maxima. Well, the comparison point you used in the warhound titan was a poor one, because it assumed that you would make an appallingly bad decision in not taking the decent guns on the Warhound. The closest comparison is the, cheaper, Knight Bullet, with his minigun of doom that is hugely more potent than the AAMA and the Two shot Battlecannon/Melta Cannon that isn't as good as the Grav Imploder, admittedly. However, if you consider the NOTORIOUS inaccuracy of a 2 shot 3+ hit that will only EVER hit once gives you a single D strength hit on the target. That or a Number of, essentially, long range vindicator shots. Now, that is definitely more potent than the regular gun you get on the dakka Knight. But it's way less than the 4 D strength large blasts that come out of the warhound. And precisely comparable to the guns you get on the (just as survivable and vastly cheaper) Wraithknight. So, how about this: drop the number of shots on the blast by 1 and the S and AP to lascannon levels, so it straddles the two options the dakka knight can take. The D strength shots, I honestly see as decently balanced now. That and add modelling notes for the Maxima being the same size as the regular Knight Titan. Mirmidion43 (talk) 13:13, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

What kind of "notorious inaccuracy" are you talking about? 2x3+ gives you 1.33 hits average. I never heard Eldar complaining about inaccuracy of D-cannon Wraithknight. Even one hit is enough to often one-shot most normal vehicles or MC's, and with it's survivability and range Maxima would at least get three shots with it's TBGB, meaning three or at least two dead tanks or monsters. That's 250-400 pts of kills from one cannon and a few turns of soaking all enemy anti-tank firepower. And it would be fine and dandy if it didn't come with a second mode, that basically kills anything that D-strengnts can't deal with. Want a dispersed mode? Make it really dispersed, S6/7 AP2/3 kind of dispersed, maybe with a small blasts Suncannon-style. Typhon have a gun that drops single 7" blast of S10 AP1 with a way shorter range and is still considered a powerful SH. Remember - guns, that can fire in multiple modes MUST cost more that a single gun that can fire one of those modes, so "X does the same better/cheaper" is not an excuse, as long as X does not have multiple fire modes too. Mezmerro (talk) 13:43, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Typhon kills things because Massive Blast with Ignores Cover. The key bit is the second rule. Properly run Xeno armies bar orks will laugh at that dispersed mode, properly done guard will laugh at that mode, with the new setup marines have so many tanks they literally do not give a shit, Chaos is a crappy book and no-one likes sisters. And a single suicide melta squad will really weaken him. Two and we have a dead suit. Crisis teams can do that in literally 300 points. While avoiding retaliation. I've dropped the number of shots to 2 and the stats to essentially a lascannon round. The big gun isn't as bad as you're making it out to be. And i've played games against wraith knights with the double cannon 3 times now with one guy. He's hit me twice a grand total of once with both shots in a combined total of 12 volleys. That's the inaccuracy I refer to. Mirmidion43 (talk) 13:56, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, yeah, and I once killed three Obliterators with three Rokkitlauncha shots. One game, where you or your opponent get super lucky/unlucky rolls does not beat four hundred years of mathematical probability theory. And yes, your precious Superheavy can be killed in one or two rounds by dedicated tank hunters. That's one thing people call "ballance" - scissors would beat paper, and if they don't, the game is broken. And that's the reason Maxima shouldn't be able to deal with everything. It have a D-gun to kill big things and a chest-gun to deal with MEQ's. Wanna deal with cover camping hordes? Bring some whirlwinds or flamers. Wanna lots of Demolisher pipelated? You have Vindicators for that. Mezmerro (talk) 14:12, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Jeez man, calm down. This isn't going for sheep stations. Ok. The Maxima doesn't have an auto win button. If S10 shots were auto win, every list would feature 3 vindicators (or 9, now with tank squads). If SD shots were auto win, the Eldar would never lose ever. I recognise that those two together on one platform is potent. That's why I lowered the number of shots and the S and AP and it lost a few rules. The Maxima is hardly auto win and hardly covers all grounds. Without the Halberd, Terminators will lock it up in combat for a number of turns and heavily damage it in the process. Without Ignores Cover, most armies laugh at its guns. I think that you might have become a little too invested in this and I reckon that you should just step back and take a breath and then look at the darn model objectively - it isn't that bad if you factor in the defences of other armies. It's hardly a "Deal with Everything" choice. Like the rest of the army, it's designed for synergy. And it costs a boatload. It bridges the gap between regular super heavies and titans quite nicely. Using your logic, parking a dark angels character running the 4+ invuln bubble behind a Warhound running the two shot D large blasts on each arm will break the game. Yet it hasn't. So don't knee jerk, just realise that this thing, like most of the army, is potent but expensive and has a few issues. Mirmidion43 (talk) 14:30, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

You still didn't get it. The problem is not in DS or pipelate or AV13/4++ or cover bubble. The problem is that a single model have it all, and does not have it's price upped for its versatility. And, that it have totally useless if not counter-productive close combat weapon option, but you seem to ignore that part. Mezmerro (talk) 15:06, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Hoo boy. I've been quite accepting thus far. I've accepted your points and made concessions, openly stating that you have a point. I'm starting to get sick of you spamming at me that i'm wrong while repeating the same arguments that i've deconstructed and you have yet to seriously address my counter points. In a conversation, both sides have to recognise that the other side has validity. Yes, it's versatile. I get that. However, what you apparently do not get is that the damn thing's cost has already been upped, and significantly. If it takes the Glaive, it isn't weakened particularly because it gets D strength close combat and the ability to force the blind checks + the ability to murder monstrous creatures with ease, making it a hard counter to other super heavies, of which without, in close combat it seriously lacks the capacity to kill those just listed. If a squad of carnifexes ran into the Maxima in close combat without the glaive, they will murder it comprehensively, likely within one round of combat. And against a halfway properly managed Tyranid list, that squad will arrive on your door, Cannon or No Cannon. The model already has been decreased in firepower and the apparently bottomless versatility you have mentioned I have addressed and provided the opposite point, of which you have not even mentioned. I also, at the start, mentioned that if you thought it was underpriced then provide suggestions. That included price suggestions. Of which none have appeared. Please, if you are going to engage in a proper debate, actually acknowledge the existence of the counter argument - if it was entirely invalid, it wouldn't exist. Mirmidion43 (talk) 15:17, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

I know what it gets with SD close combat weapon, but it simultaneously loses the ability to do pretty much the same things from the safe distance. Like I said, Glavie turns it into overpriced mix of Warden and Lancer. Yes, carnifex brood would murder it if it comes close. Probably even with glavie, as you statistically would only kill on fex per assault phase, maybe two with lucky D-rolls. The trick is to come close. I rarely see Carnifexes charging titans or stompas - people screen them with infantry. KIs even got squads of relatively cheap mortals ideal for that purpose. As for Blind, it's not that big of a boon, really. Even I2 have 1/3 chance to pass a single Iniiative test, and it only takes effect at the end of a phase, so those surviving Carnifexes are still going to hit on 4+ during the first turn of combat.

And I dind't tell about "bottomless" versatility. But it is still very effective against anything outside heavy cover, be it Hordes, MEQs, TEQs, multi-wound infantry, heavy tanks, MCs, squadrons of light vehicles. Fire Prisms can cover four out seven of those positions, and are still considered one of the most versatile vehicles. At least with S9 TBGB no longer can InstaDeath Ogryns, Nob Bikers and Centurions, but at S6-7 it would be more reasonable, throwing multi-wound and squadrons of AV 10-11 out of the list. Mezmerro (talk) 15:59, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

New Marine Codex Buffs

So, how do you guys think that the changes to the marine book are going to influence the Knights Inductor? Beyond the obvious, like, how it's going to massively favour scouts now and the spamming of tanks. And, more importantly, how should we react? Should we change anything to counter balance? Mirmidion43 (talk) 22:18, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

We're currently following a pricing scheme of vanilla + 2pts for Empyrean Anathema, so that doesn't really change. Our vehicles and the like are priced the same so that changes to match for the most part. We'll see once all the normal changes go through if anything needs to be tweaked. Remoon101 (talk) 22:40, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Only exception to the vehicle pricing might do with Dreadnoughts having Chapter Tactics now, and Empyrean Anathema is such a tactic with a +2 on all infantry costs. I don't see a 100 point model going up to 102 points normally, so what do you guys think?

As for Counter balancing, I think we need to look back at our formations and see if they should be adjusted to either increase their power, or decrease the power of certain ones. Right now I'm looking at the Primary Detachment from the SM Codex that makes it so that if you take 790 points worth of models, you gain '550 points worth of razorbacks for free, that alone is absolutely intense and borderline game-breaking. That being said, in larger games there is literally nothing stopping a space marine player using the standard codex from SPAMMING these formations at 790 points each, giving their marines a bunch of Lascannons, and then giving every last one of the razorbacks Hunter Killer missiles. So in an 1850 point game, one can have 20 free razorbacks, clocking in at a monstrous 2950 point army. Evilexecutive (talk) 23:28, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I used to have Dreadnoughts (in one of the OLDEST incarnations of the Knights Codex) actually have a strong of an aura as Silencers or close to it. In any case, I think it makes sense for Dreadnoughts to have Empyrean Anathema at this point. It could be a 5pt bump, if we give them fear as well.

To be specific, the old KI Dreads had an aura that was similar to a Silencer without actually being one, a fluff reason made up for it being that the faint aura grew stronger the closer to death they were. However that might not be true anymore with the codex overhauls and (future) fluff rewrites. [

I just thought of a great reason! Null-Amps, the new wargear piece I had added today. We could say that Dreads are fitted with them, giving them Fear (Empyrean Anathema is assumed to be natural). [User:Remoon101|Remoon101]] (talk) 23:35, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Mwahaha, that sounds totally kickass at this point. Dreadnoughts with 4 attacks base with the FEAR rule! However, I would probably want to say that's worth about a 10 point bump in cost. I'm going to go ahead and change the line on Empyrean Anathema so that Vehicles and independent characters generate null charges separate from the squad. Evilexecutive (talk) 23:44, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't get it, why the evil laugh? Fear is one of the most useless rules in 40k as opposed to FB, where it rocks. Pretty much everything worth using it have Fearless, ATSKNF or very high LD. It's only useful against orks and guard. Mezmerro (talk) 04:17, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

I was going to add in vehicles for the pilots, but I think it can be said that whatever faint aura they may have can't make a meaningful contribution to the battle. Dreadnoughts make sense if they have a built-in Null-Amp. As for where we stand with formations compared to the new 7E space marines codex I'd say we're pretty good right now. Our auxiliary formations are cheaper, more easy to slot in for the most part and give just as good if not better benefits. Our base formations are decent enough as is IMO, though they could see a few buffs in the future in return for being harder to take perhaps. Remoon101 (talk) 00:11, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

I'd suggest starting on some formations, including a Decurion style formation of formations. I know it may be a hard swallow, but you may try the path of "formations give you free stuff!" along with their usually absurd rules.Crazy Cryptek (talk) 00:23, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Uh... Cryptek? My man? We already have those? Remoon101 (talk) 00:26, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Amusingly enough, the current formations we have do give free stuff, though it's all Squad Issue Wargear. Which in most cases will boil down to the whole, "Give your Tacticals Marksman Autosense, or Camo Cloaks for EVERYONE", but those are a 24 point tops and a 15 point upgrade. Nothing anywhere remotely close to the ultra-tier bullshit that is 550 points worth of free razorbacks. I do agree that they need a buff. ^_^ Evilexecutive (talk) 00:27, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

So, new supplement for space marines "Angels of Death" is out and with it came 4 new psychic disciplines. Can KI use them?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say the answer is no. Knights Inductor really shouldn't have access to the other space marine supplements, since it's more of a self contained codex. Hence why it doesn't have access to any of the IA2 stuff like Contemptors and Sicarans. To then give them access to Contemptors or "New" psychic powers would be silly.Evil Executive, CEO of Evil Incorporated (talk) 18:01, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Fluff and Formating

OK, this is becoming an issue. The only bits of fluff KI units have now are in the form of vague quotes. I know, there are more in stories, but at least few sentences about every unit would help the reader to understand what this particular unit is, where they come from, and what it's role is supposed to be fluff-wise. Of cause when (if?) it's gonna be put into a printable PDF we may expect a fine half-pages of fluff for every entry, but every bit can help smoothening the reading of what this codex is now. Also, as a side note, putting special rules higher, above upgrade options, probably bolded for emphasis would helpful too. Mezmerro (talk) 06:04, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Eeeh, I personally don't see the issue (read around your army, not too hard) as it is, although I am planning to spend some considerable time writing on the PDF codex in around 3 1/2 weeks from now. As for the special rules thing, that's a pretty common layout across home-brew armies as far as i've noticed (admittedly, haven't been specifically looking for it). Thoughts, exec, remoon? Mirmidion43 (talk) 09:32, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

We really should keep the fluff to the printable PDF format of the codex, whereby each unit will get their own dedicated Page(s). I can easily see the wiki page being used in part for an Armory Section, like the back of the Space Marines codex. The thing is though, there really isn't room on the Wiki for all of the fluff to be on the same page as the rest of the army stats.Evilexecutive (talk) 14:35, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Behold the magnificent power of advanced tags:

Here you can place all the fluff you ever wanted without taking any space on the page. Mezmerro (talk) 15:25, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, the point of Stats and composition -> Starting gear -> Rules -> Upgrades layout is that you first read everything your unit can do stock, and then the option for upgrading, instead of having upgrade option in the middle of everything and half of the unit's description under it. That's just basic ergonomics. It's mostly Wiki page formating stuff anyways, since in a printable codex those things are always formated in nice columns. Too bad wiki engine cannot support codex-like formating (I tried once, and in looked terrible). Mezmerro (talk) 10:03, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

I was thinking about this previously. How about a fluff section at the end (above the pictures) like in the Codex: The Covenant? I've actually already written fluff for almost every single unit in this codex, but didn't put it in due to space constraints (since this is the only real codex we have for now). Remoon101 (talk) 16:16, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Really, really bad idea. Jumping up and sown on a page without anchors... not a comfortable reading. Official codexes past the 3E always had everything but options on the fluff page near the start of the book, and army list on the back, and in FW books you have both fluff and crunch on the same page too. As a side note, it's how FFG fucks up their books - by forgetting ergonomics even exist. Mezmerro (talk) 15:50, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Hmmm... I guess I'll use the collapsing tags to put the fluff where the quotes currently are. You just click to expand to get the fluffy details on the main characters and units (which explain how they are different from standard marines, etc.). The length of these fluff bits would be about the same length as the ones above the new character entries further up this talk page.

The only thing is that we might be better off with a separate page entirely maybe so I can be able to put in more details about accomplishments or the personalities and relationships of the Captains and the like in. Which would be better? Collapsed fluff where the quotes currently are (click on the expand next to the quotes for more details) or a link to a separate page? I'm fine with either. Remoon101 (talk) 17:07, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Separate fluff page is not much different from the fluff on the bottom. I'd say collapsible fluff sections would be ideal for now. Mezmerro (talk) 05:57, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Bringing Up the Pacification Detachment

So, right now GW has broken the Space Marine codex completely and the Xeno Codices aren't far behind and/or match it. A lot of this is attributable to their unique detachments. For example, the "Yo Dawg I herd u Liek Razorbacks" Space Marine formation or the "Never Say Die" Necron detachment. The buffs that are given are frequently huge and frankly the Pacification Detachment is lagging behind significantly. So, in the spirit of fairness, how can we buff the Pacification Detachment to match or at least be not quite so far behind the newest wave of formations. Mirmidion43 (talk) 23:50, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Overall Army Buff:

• 4+ Sieze, reroll Night Fighting to almost guarantee it and Move Through Cover. All of these are fluffy. Any more ideas?

This is pretty solid in my book. The MTC is great synergy not to mention it makes all of our vehicles safe through terrain which is POWERFUL. The 4+ Seize, while not a 1+ Seize, is pretty strong and has gotten me 1st turn a few times now. Remoon101 (talk) 01:23, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Wait, Move Through Cover lets tanks ignore dangerous terrain checks? I thought it was just for infantry. Mirmidion43 (talk) 04:04, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Base formations:

• General Response Force; One piece of free squad gear, Reroll traits, D3 objective secured. Maybe increase the Obj. sec? Buff the squad gear bit? Make it reduce the cost of other squad gear?

To match the main marine equivalent, I'd give everyone in the formation Objective Secured. New squad gear will be incoming. Hopefully. Remoon101 (talk) 01:23, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

• Rapid Response Force; One piece of free squad gear, reroll traits, 1/3 squads get outflank. Maybe buff the outflank bit to more guys? same squad gear change as above?
• Infiltration and Covert Ops Strike Team; One piece of free squad gear, reroll traits, infiltrate on Sternguard and everyone stealths for the first turn. The marine formation comparable gives universal stealth until you move. Copy paste that? Same deal with squad gear as before.

Yea, adding Stealth-until-you-move for all the guys in the formation would make it pretty solid, in addition to the rest of the benefits such as infiltrate for sternguards. My other suggestion would have been that "If you take a Silent Hand Operating Unit, models in both formations may be upgraded to Silent Hands for free". Not quite as powerful as putting 10 free Razorbacks on the board, but bringing in Formation Synergy is a good way to look into doing this.Evilexecutive (talk) 01:15, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

A lot of people have been saying that the Stealth until you move is comparatively powerful so I'm not adverse at all to adding that in. I mean my forces are usually moving a bit to get good positions but if you infiltrate into a good spot that you're digging into, Stealth-until-you-move would be great. Remoon101 (talk) 01:23, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

• Inductor Mechanicus Reclaimer Force; Free refractive plating, reroll traits, Obj. secured on the infantry. Must take the Workshop Maintenance team. This one is a little better, although it still has a ways to go. Maybe replace free refractive plating with "one free advanced upgrade?"

I'd say no, or else everyone would go for the Plating Overhaul immediately or POTMS giving one, both of which are pretty dang powerful. I think it's final as is so far, but a buff through more free wargear isn't quite what this would want (not that it needs it that badly). Remoon101 (talk) 01:23, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

• Chaos Nullification Task Force; reroll traits, 3+ guys for determining 10 guys for Empyrean Anathema, Sarges give charges on 4+. Must take the Psychic warfare node. This is purely a psychic formation and needs a bigger buff if it's going to be proppa. Maybe automatic charges for Empyrean Anathema?
• Apriori Sector War Council; pick 3 guys to be warlord. This is weak as far as formations go and i'm not entirely sure it should stay. thoughts?

Pretty much everyone I've talked to said the Apriori Sector War Council was admittedly one of the cooler formations. It's pretty much a Fluffy/Apocalypse Formation, where having multiple Warlords and their ensuing powers is actually pretty damn useful and very powerful. Like having Graven Brias + Zakis Randi + Gajet, giving 3 units some powerful special rules, having two orbital bombardments(on an admittedly VERY fragile character), and then unlocking all of the experimental item restrictions. It's meant for 3000+ point games, and to be said, in a few weeks I'm going to be running it to test out how well it performs. Said Battle Report is going to be 6000 points by the way. Evilexecutive (talk) 01:15, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

If you really want to make it powerful, try adding the following: All HQ's this formation may take a single piece of Experimental Infantry Wargear for Free", so at that point you have 6 guys to take 6 terribly fun things. Like Macharius Codexes, Signature Projectors, and Tracer Bolts, to turn them all into rock solid supporters.Evilexecutive (talk) 01:20, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

That being said, it's not very useful for 1850 point games, but it's Rock Solid in Apocalypse. I'd vote for it to stay for both fluff and crunch reasons. Evilexecutive (talk) 01:15, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Auxilia formations:

• Psychic Warfare Node; pretty simple reroll on powers. I like this one, unless others have a buff they would like to see.
• Workshop Maintenance Team; +1 to all blessings of the Omnissiah. Again, pretty simple and having multiple tech marines running around is always handy.
• Marauder Assault Force; reroll traits, twice a game the whole bunch reroll to hit and to wound for a turn. This one I see as the human counterpart to the necron destroyer cult. Thoughts?
• Heavy Weapons Emplacement; always in area terrain for that 5+ cover save, if a speeder can see it, -1 to cover saves and speeder line of sight is barrage weapon line of sight. You can't move very fast. Maybe improve the cover save?
• Aerial Dominance Wing; 4+ cover standard on the valks, reroll to wound or armour pen against anything that flies. I like this one, pretty solid anti air formation.
• First Company Guidance Team; preferred enemy, everyone starts showing up turn 1. The comparable one in Space Marines makes them all scare enemies for -2 leadership if they're within 12" of three units from the formation and you pick one unit to get preferred enemy against. They seem relatively equal.
• Advanced Technological Support Node; Experimental gear ahoy, vaeris upgrades cost half as much, Innovatus swap slow and purposeful for relentless and Lords of War get a buffed invuln. This one isn't terrible, but maybe making the man things cheaper?
• Close Air Support and Combat Drop Wing; everyone shows up together starting turn 1, strafing run. Remarkably similar to the storm wing formation.
• Armoured Assault Column; any number of advanced upgrades, tank hunters. This one could use a buff to the rules, maybe reducing the cost of vehicle upgrades?
• Armoured Support Column; the yang to the yin of the armoured assault column, advanced are available and all barrage weapons are twin linked. Could use a bit of improvement, much like the immediate above.
• Rapid Incursion Force; reroll traits, everyone pretends to be blood angels when they deep strike. This one could REALLY use a buff. Maybe universal fleet, free frag grenades or extra speed?
• Silent Hand Operating Unit; Infiltrate, Scout and Stealth. This is better than the base formation for the simple and solid rules that it brings. However, it still lacks a bit of something.

Thoughts overall? Mirmidion43 (talk) 23:50, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Not saying anything directly right now, but as a rule the auxilia formations should obviously give less of stronger buffs in general than the base formation. Not to mention our formations are a lot more flexible than the current ones for GW codicies. Remoon101 (talk) 01:09, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Welp

Well, needless to say I am aghast at the rampant changes going on. I already had ideas for the removal of the Null Gene and replacing certain elements once we were all on the same page but people are seemingly moving in and changing things on a whim. I'm going to do my best to fix some of the stuff that's going on here, because some of the rules being pasted in are clearly lacking. Remoon101 (talk) 19:47, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

First steps have been taken; aside from balancing changes that I was originally going to put in, I've removed Tactical Warfare and the Experimental special rules, as they were put in without concern for internal balance. I've continued the trend of the removal of null-related wargear/options/units and special rules so that it's more complete. As of right now the Knights are horrendously overcosted but I'm willing to leave it like that for the time being in order to put thought into more synergistic and interesting special rules. Remoon101 (talk) 20:24, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

If we're going to play up the Tactical/Tech elements of the Knights now and avoiding the Null idea, then maybe a rule to play up their synergy with each other? We had something like that a long time ago. Mirmidion43 (talk) 22:12, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I'll be honest here. I had just written up like three lists centering around null play because I never had a chance to try out the Chaos Nullification Task Force formation before and have fun with it. So all of this was coming out of left field for me when all sudden the null mechanic (which is what the codex was almost completely balanced points-wise on) was removed. Editing the codex is bringing no fun to me right now and I don't look forward to having to scrap those lists I spent way too much time on. Ironically Evilexecutive and others went against what was being said in the rewrite page: that the fluff would be written to support the codex and not the other way around.

I'd much rather bring back the null mechanic and just keep the fluff rewrites off of the wiki in the meantime. Otherwise I don't think I'll be able to continue working on this with as much gusto as I have been. I don't give a single fuck about what the people on /tg/ think about the Knights Inductor, whether I agree with them or not. They (through Newerfag) gave me enough advice in the past to overhaul the codex so that it attracted more people and people nowadays on vassal 40k find the army interesting (including the null mechanic). It means that this codex as it is was a step in the right direction. I think we're just jumping way too far ahead of ourselves, and it didn't help that I was left out of the loop. Remoon101 (talk) 23:45, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I do agree that we should bring back the mechanic, but I'm also quite nervous of bringing it back at this time. Yes, it's quite fun to use, and was the reason most people I've met(besides the whole deal with Silent Hands) liked the army. However, I'm worried that if we make any new changes within the span of this week, they'll attract the Vandals again. We need to keep it quiet, and lay low for a week, then slowly reintroduce them after a week has passed. If at all we decide to do it. Evilexecutive (talk) 23:54, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I'll take that as a yes then. And I'll be going ahead with the reversion and adding the balance changes that were missed. Remoon101 (talk) 23:59, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Fair enough. Though this time, I suggest you keep the project off of /tg/ itself and use 1d4chan exclusively to coordinate it. They've obviously been so completely soured on the concept that they'll reject it instantly no matter what you do with it. I'm sure you think it's a good idea and it is fairly well-developed as far as fandexes go, but trying to reintroduce it to /tg/ now is infinitely more trouble than it was worth. Leave the fluff be, it's a lost cause by this point as we learned the hard way. (It was also why all the Null Gene-related stuff was removed- it was the single greatest source of the Mary Sue accusations, and even now I'm far from comfortable with the whole idea of it. It's too reminiscent of the old Knights Inductor and will keep biting you in the ass whenever it gets brought up. And as it turned out, rewriting the fluff was impossible without changing the crunch to reflect it, so we either had to try and give the appearance of addressing the Mary Sue allegations or leave it be and open it up to the accusation that the new KI was exactly the same as the old one.)

For what it's worth, their cost wasn't the problem so much as their disproportionate power. In nearly every respect, anything a vanilla Marine can do a KI can do it better and for a lower points cost. External balance should be made the primary concern here, and again the Null powers are an issue there as well. They practically ruin the psychic phase, and have no Perils of the Warp equivalent to compensate for their power. There's no reason not to use as many dice as possible to manifest them, which makes them less risky and more reliable to use than their Psychic counterparts. Additionally, with no anti-Blank wargear in existence, nothing can counter them in the same way the Culexus or psyk-out grenades can counter psykers. --Newerfag (talk) 00:22, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Good point on the Silencer Perils there, it just gave me an idea or two to make things more risky casting Null Powers. Along with that I do have other ideas for balancing to make things more fair with the Null thing, despite the fact that their design is meant to overturn the Psychic Phase. As always your additions to the discussion have been helpful with balancing.

I'm not going to comment too much on the fluff or /tg/ threads or whatnot to be honest. I've had more success just working on the codex entirely after the initial lash against it in its inception and it's grown for the better than worse overall. This time was a case of one of the other main editors making a mistake and also people taking the wrong approach to the whole rewriting thing. Until I get my own details together on that I'm trying to avoid it for the most part. Remoon101 (talk) 00:41, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Ok Coming Back To This

Okay, Stop a moment, really quick. Evilexecutive (talk) 00:33, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

• Knights cost 16 points base, and lack certain key wargear that gives them tactical flexibility. Most notably Gravguns that are very popular in the meta. No other KI equipment fills in that niche. All other Knights cost more as well. They don't do more than marines for less, they do just barely more than marines for a noticable points increase.

  • I'm still finding things where the Knights are underpriced, and there probably will still be things once I fix those. He doesn't mean all of the KI Codex, there only has to be a few units low enough to be abused in any codex for it to be a problem Remoon101 (talk) 00:43, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
    • Alright, I'm going to run through tonight and do a whole bunch of FAXIV Calculations for most of the units. Expect a whole lot of experimental points changes based on intrinsic value. Evilexecutive (talk) 01:01, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

• Silencers DO have perils of the warp equivalent. If you get double 6s while manifesting silencer powers, whatever squad your silencer is attached to takes a morale test at LEADERSHIP 3. Meaning they have only a 6% chance of staying on the board, which is insanely bad. The only alternative is to put the silencer OUTSIDE of a squad, which is bad. VERY BAD, for it's own key reasons. It means he's a sitting duck that can be targetted freely.

• You counter them with either Chaos Demons, Eldar, or Grey Knights. 1:1, a Silencer Stops a Librarian. You put a silencer on the board, you're expecting to get next to no use out of him if your opponent's wary enough to not bring any psykers. Chaos Demons, Eldar, and Grey Knights can easily burn through silencers by sheer mass of Warp Dice, while Eldar can simply dance around the silencers by saying, "Yea, you see that unit I want to make invisible? HERES 35 Dice, oh and I'm spending a charge to ignore perils."

• The math works out that if you're not running nullification task force, you're getting 12 Null Charges in an 1850 point game, 15 if you're running the nullification task force. That means you get to pick a single power, and deny it every turn. But the math also works out that usually you won't be able to deny much more without very lucky rolls.

My last point is that it actually is possible to write fluff without changing the crunch. It's as easy as following a simple rule: Write fluff in support of the codex, not the other way around. The problem though was that we had people from /tg/ hopping aboard, and screwing around with it. The fluff is easiest to change and fix. While changing the codex requires extensive testing, external balancing, internal balancing, and external feedback(usually from people we run the BATREPS with). This Sunday I'm doing a 6000 point Apocalypse Game to get some very valuable data on how the codex compares in extremely large games. Especially where the snowballing effect has been noted to do 2 things: Evilexecutive (talk) 00:40, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

• The Size of Knights Armies increases at a slower rate than other armies, as points increase. Larger games will produce a significantly pronounced effect, whereby what should have been a 4000 point list, turns into a 4800 point list with Knights inductor.

• Empyrean Anathema Starts to Scale Faster at larger games, whereby it handles 1:1 in 1850, but once you get to 3000 it's .85:1, and in 4500 it's .5:1

For whatever reason the Perils equivalent isn't even on the page, so you should add it ASAP. The grav guns are a good point, but I believed the Plasma Guns (with no Gets Hot!) filled a similar function and also had the advantage of being more useful against light infantry. That said, in regards to the other Null Power issues it seems I did rush my calculations a bit, and I apologize for that. Next time, I'm using a calculator.

As for the fluff-crunch thing, the issue there was that the most problematic fluff was tied to the crunch in such a way that changing one made changing the other a necessity. When people are screaming about how Silencers make the KI special snowflakes and how they absolutely must be taken out, you aren't exactly in a position to explain why they're still balanced in spite of it. And I'm not sure how to put this, but if you didn't want people from /tg/ hopping aboard and making changes you don't like, then it shouldn't have been posted there in the first place. --Newerfag (talk) 00:52, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Perils equivalent is on the page, underneath the points detailing the Silencer special rule underneath the Silencer Primaris unit entry. Your apology on null calculation is accepted, even I had a hard time with that in a past discussion relating to NC generation.

The posting to /tg/ was a mistake from one of the other main editors. Bad fluff aside reception to Silencers, Null Charge mechanics, and their interactions with other armies have been positive in almost all of my playtest games, aside from a few that suggested changes or balancing for the codex. Remoon101 (talk) 00:59, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it is quite unfortunate. Silencers are only decently balanced, in that they do what they set about to do, and not much more. But their fluff is quite lacking. As for getting /tg/ involved, that's actually Mirm's doing, as I explicitly told him not to let them in on it. We need to put that behind us, and just keep the whole codex and it's fluff rewrites to 1d4chan, and only 1d4chan. The crunch is only tied to the fluff so much that the fluff is meant to explain why the crunch is there. We can technically leave the crunch in without any fluff, and it would still work on the tabletop regardless. But the fluff is easier to change, as you can intentionally write the fluff in a multitude of ways that explain the crunch. The difference of course is that I can write fluff saying, "Becuzmagic, dats Y" for Silencers, or I can say, "Silencers are an extension of what happens when you take a Null-infected Gene-seed, and implant a receptive human that is already a natural born Pariah.", they both explain the crunch. One of them is in much better taste though. That's not final either, as I can sit down and easily change the fluff.Evilexecutive (talk) 00:57, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Alright, I've finished using FAXIV on all codex units that I haven't in the past used FAXIV on. The only thing I'm not touching is the Maxima Marauder, because that son of a bitch is too complicated for me to use FAXIV on. That also brings me to a new point. The Silencer Alpha is so grossly powerful, that his points cost is now on par with certain Lords of War. I think he should be moved to the Lord of War Section. Evilexecutive (talk) 01:33, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree, Rachnus should be a LoW. Although, I reckon that no infantry model should ever exceed three hundred points in cost and the cost needs to be scaled back a bit. It also quite fits the fluff- Rachnus never deploys usually, and his appearance marks a momentous occasion, much like the appearance of, say, Draigo. Mirmidion43 (talk) 08:08, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

So look at all the playtests

Now look at all the times KI lost. Yes it is zero. This is more then a bit concerning. I mean, the main issue seems most of them are kill point games, were gunlines are at a fairly massive advantage. KI can do gun lines no problem.

It just seems like KI are being tau without the downsides of being squishy. And Tau are terrifying.--Bobthe6th (talk) 09:47, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Tau can have greater numbers and mobility. I reckon that if the Knights played the Tau it would be damn close, even in kill points. In objectives, a Tau list will win most days of the week, same with Maelstrom. Mirmidion43 (talk) 11:29, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

I reckon I can get an objective game Battle Report up sometime in the next day or two. I just have tended to play kill points because simplicity. And the armies I've played haven't exactly been top-tier - Dark Angels and Tyranids. Mirmidion43 (talk) 11:29, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

If you take actual knights, yes. Scouts with sniper rifles out range fire warriors, and don't rely on squishy units like pathfinders for markerlights. Also preemptive strike can just kill any large source of marker lights, or the ethereal if they are fielding one. I did a game against Tau, and they imploded.--Bobthe6th (talk) 13:01, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Chiming in here, yes the general trend is that KI still need tuning down which is still happening (you can see several of my earlier games reliant on Sternguard where I have no fun winning with them and heavily nerf them several times). However my recent games have become much more fun (I haven't posted the latest ones yet) with my opponent's tactical and strategic mistakes playing more for my victory along with my own smart choices in-game. They're more balanced now than ever and that's a trend that'll only continue to get better with more tuning and playtesting. Remoon101 (talk) 23:56, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Occupy Tactical, also ATSKNF

Why are there tatical squads in the knights? There is no reason to take them besides taxes. Scouts are better troops in the base codex, and relentless scouts are better still. Sternguard are better powered armor models, and fill whatever niche the tacticals might have had. Also, having three troops without a really good reason is... ugly. Only Chaos daemons and nids do it, and they are both weird cases.

From a fluff perspective it makes sense that the chapter is literally running out of power armor. They can't make all that much, given the tech is just in the experimental stages (the Damocles armor is not actually fully functional if it forces slow and purposeful). It makes sense that they would be keeping scouts for longer, using the much easier to produce trooper armor. By the time a scout is given true power armor, they already a veteran by any other chapters standards. They might still get called tacticals in the chapter organization chart, but they use the sternguard entry.

There is even an in system way of differentiating really elite sternguard with the silent hands.

This would just help reduce unit bloat, reinforce the feel of the codex, and remove the trap option of tacticals. --Bobthe6th (talk) 10:39, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

There are Tacticals because, if you check the fluff thing, we are still Semi Codex Compliant, in the basic format. We have no power armour supply issues at all, given that we've scrapped the old fluff about the Damocles armour being the new mainstay and given the number of guys that we've lost in the new fluff, it would actually make more sense that we have an Overabundance of Power Armour. By number of guys lost, I mean 1000. With recruitment, it's more like 1200. We have plenty enough gear. Mirmidion43 (talk) 11:29, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Also, Tacticals aren't really a trap at all if you play them right. I have a trick with a 24 man squad, a drop pod, a rhino with skybolt launcher, 4 meltas and 4 plasmas. The drop pod poops out a squad that will mulch heavy infantry and a squad that will slag a tank. Without giving up a kill point (drop pod will though). Seriously, this codex is actually quite balanced in its troops choices, none of them are unviable, they just play in different ways. Mirmidion43 (talk) 11:29, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Let me quote someone who knows better then I "Not as much as Scouts. Infiltrate and Scout (and Outflank), for less points, with the same weapons.

Compared to Tactical Marines, the only Tactical Marines that matter, are ones with Special and Heavy weapons (and since that's the case, why not have Devastators or Sternguard?), all other models in the unit are dead weight compared to Scouts, which are cheaper."-cheese gear over on giant in the playground [2]

and it might not even be a question of getting enough gear. Hypno training takes a marine from a blank slate to a basic scout, and then you build up actual real world skills. Without that you start with those real world skills, and never need the buffing period. But to be codex compliant you still need the training deployments.

Finally, above all, it is really against flavor to just have the tactical and planned KI have generic, 12 man squad in a drop pod just hop out and shoot the enemy. With the amount of ranged fire power the codex is packing, alpha strike meltas don't make a bit of sense. You can set up preemptive strikes that will kill knights. Without spending a ton of points. --Bobthe6th (talk) 12:55, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

I've had alpha strike marines as an army strategy win me many games, specifically with two squads in a combined arms detachment. It wipes key players turn one and two and can often lock me into a winning position early on. Especially with a follow up punch from Artillery and Vindicators. I also tend to prefer the ability to take a greater variety of special and heavy weapons in tacticals. If we're running off of crunch now, there isn't a particular reason why the Tacticals need to be dropped as the fluff actively supports their existence and there is still sufficient reason to take tacticals, it just comes down to preference.Mirmidion43 (talk) 13:41, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Also, drop pod assault is hardly against the Knights fluff - there are times, frequently, when a single quick, killing blow is the key to conflict resolution and the main way to do that in Space Marine land is by drop pod assault. Generic is Generic because it works. And Preemptive strike needs line of sight, which is often blocked at deployment, as i've discovered on numerous occasions.Mirmidion43 (talk) 13:47, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

There are also times when you need bolters, not sniper rifles, to kill shit. I've found it commonly against Tyranid and Ork hordes, where armour is a non-issue and I just want to bullet storm things to death. And then, if you give the scouts bolters, the argument is over defense, which I tend to prefer, versus ability to deploy in interesting ways, since in the Knights, cover save comparison is rarely an issue.Mirmidion43 (talk) 13:41, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

If you are cover camping like you should be with KI troops, unless you are spending points on a 3+ armor save that... does nothing that really matters. If you want to alpha strike send in stern guard. They are better, and cost negligible points for the increased efficiency. If you want massed bolters, scouts are cheaper and have scout and infiltrate. These are the magic words to explain why you should not take tacticals. Like... the only case it matters is with a heavy flamer. Which means a melee unit got within 8 inches of your scouts. Which means you failed at your job. --Bobthe6th (talk) 14:10, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Sternguard are massively more expensive for a negligible benefit in this book - it's different in regular marines, but not here. The increased cost is something like 6 points a guy, which is more than the cost of a guardsman - that's not inconsiderable. The reason there is no difference is the availability of special weapons: Sternguard are better in regular marines because of combi weapon access, which is negated by the KI organisation for special guns on their tacticals. Also, in this book, infiltrate is a moot point because with a single Macharius Stratagems Codex - an item I ALWAYS take - the tacticals can get it too AND have 3+ armour. Which I prefer over scout, any day of the week. It's literally coming down to a matter of preference here and that is no reason to scrap an entire unit, especially not one supported by fluff. Mirmidion43 (talk) 14:27, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Actually the 6 per man is cheaper then an extra 12 marines that don't do anything better then scouts but cost more... and you still end up with 4 dead weight bodies. Also holy fuck are those codexes busted, though using them for infiltrate is criminal. 20 points to give anything tank hunter. any way, yes they can be worse scouts(no scout) by spending an incredibly precious resource. For a 3+ save that does not matter. Anything that is shooting at them is not going to care. And if it does, getting a 3+ cover save is generally going to be cheaper. The fluff barely supports the unit, and the codex is way to full of units anyways. Scouts bring land speeder storms, the best vehicle the the codex allows but is not actually stated.--Bobthe6th (talk) 14:54, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

---

Now an entirely different tangent. Knights don't really get hypno training. SO WHY THE FUCK DO THEY GET ATSKNF!?!? Yes they are marines, so it is standard. On the other hand, this is a custom codex were very little is standard. Also, there is way to much fear immunity everywere anyways.

Strip ATSKNF and replace it with something else. Like a mob rule like ability. Make it a function of Empyrean Anathema. The lack of proper hypno training leaves them less brainwashed, luckily being very weak blanks makes it hard for them to feel emotions anyway. This effect is greater in larger groups, as the blank effect grows stronger.

Dead Souls: If you can't feel anything, you can't feel fear. A unit with at least one model with this rule can chose to reroll any failed regroup, fear, or pining tests or moral checks. If they fail on the reroll the unit suffers the normal effect of a failed roll, and has -1 Ld for the rest of the turn. --Bobthe6th (talk) 10:39, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

I believe that we've dealt with this for now the third time. With enough indoctrination and training, even the regular librarians can get ATSKNF. This means that it would be logically far easier to train a marine to this point as they can endure longer sessions of training. If the whole ATSKNF librarians thing was a problem, which it isn't in my mind, why didn't you bring it up before? Because it's a simple step in logic. Mirmidion43 (talk) 11:29, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

I have spent the past couple days catching up with the huge amount of new content. ATSKNF is... a really terrible rule that breaks any attempts at using the moral system in a marine dominated meta. It is the reason fear is a joke, and scilencers are not useful if there are no psykers. It is possibly my least favorite part of 40k. Here, we have marines that it makes sense to give something else to. They do not fit the "no fear ever, because I was programed never to fear."--Bobthe6th (talk) 12:55, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

We haven't actually dealt with this. You only stated that KIs have ATSKNF just because. They can have it despite Cataleptic Node mutation, IF they brainwash their initiates until their brains melt, but the point is they don't even try. Mezmerro (talk) 13:23, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

The original discussion has been deleted, i'm pretty sure. There was a conversation on this point about them having ATSKNF. It's not just me, i'm just bringing up established points. And personal preference is, while to an extent valid, a little weak as a point. Myself and the other two mains haven't had a problem with the rule since it was brought into the Codex, at its inception. Also, at their heart, Knights Inductor ARE marines, it makes perfect sense that they would have marine rules. Also, if you look at it in a different way, it would be easy to generate ATSKNF in those marines than expected, specifically because they have traces of the Null gene and have less emotion as a result. Mirmidion43 (talk) 13:41, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Also, with the new fluff setup, the Knights will most definitely try and brainwash the initiates to get ATSKNF, they desperately needs the numbers and aren't hesitant to do what is needed. See the mortality rate with their gene-seed.Mirmidion43 (talk) 13:49, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

It is not an opinion that ATSKNF has crippled the moral system into a joke. It is a fact. Fear is not an ability worth gaining. Also, the KI DO NOT BELIVE THE GOD EMPEROR IS AN UNQUESTIONABLE GOD. This is stuff from the initial writfagotry. ATSKNF is basically saying you are will not question that you must hold, and that you can not falter. Except an actually sane tactical doctrine says you can and should. It makes sense for normal space marines, because this is beyond question, because hypnotherapy and the chaplin agree. But the KI believe everyone can make mistakes, and that dying in the name of the emperor is worse then living to carry out his duty. It is like giving the gray knights mericals of faith from SoB. It would make sense, kinda. But it would not fit there fluff, and would merely drain more of their flavor. --Bobthe6th (talk) 14:01, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Why would they do that? The point of the knights is they are very tactically adaptive, and think about what they are doing. If you brainwash people, you get guys screaming about the codex astartes and dying for the emperor. Which is super not in flavor, or matching with the crunch.--Bobthe6th (talk) 14:01, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Also, chaos marines. The same guys that went through the same training process. But now they don't believe in the emperor, so the get no ATSKNF. So what is the KI's excuse? --Bobthe6th (talk) 14:13, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

CSMs actually do NOT get through the same training process. Before the Heresy hypno-indoctrination was more about implanting useful knowledge to quicken initiate learning (hence why Legions had no Scouts), rather than granting mindless unquestionable loyalty to superiors. Those of marines who fell to Chaos after the Heresy abandon their hypno-indoctrination programs almost immediately, as they value their newfound freedom and personal ambitions more then they value iron resolve they get from brainwashing. Mezmerro (talk) 14:30, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm gonna leave it here with a couple quick things: Brainwashing does not necessarily mean for the Emprah, it could just as likely mean for the best scenario, or for the imperium. There is no mention in any fluff at all that ATSKNF must be for the Emperor, it can just as easily be anything else. Also If this is such a monumental issue, then why haven't you brought it up over the literal years this codex has been up? No-one else has found it a serious concern. If you think the rule breaks the game, tough. That's the way the game works. And it's still easily possible to run marines off the board, they just have to be close it the edge, which is entirely common, especially in objective games. The Knights flavour in that regard is simple: They are still marines that are semi compliant to the codex astartes - read the link to the fluff page. Enough said, i'm going to stop for tonight. Mirmidion43 (talk) 14:27, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Because I am hitting stride on an all night read over, and all the corpulent codex bloat is making me notice all the things I had been ignoring. Nothing besides marines get ATSKNF, and only loyalist marines. Whith proper hypno training. Otherwise it should be given to stormtroopers, and sisters of battle. It isn't, because it isn't something thrown around lightly. It is getting mindfucked by your internal organs into undying devotion to your cause. Please read the link to the fluff thread, you will notice some helpful things. Like a gene seed mutation that is supposed to have some kind of negative impact. Right now, everything about the codex is upside, and it shows. They are just better marines, none of the fluff draw backs carrying through to the game. Mez, what about the Astral Claws? They still lose ATSKNF even though the survivors definitely went through proper hypno training. It might be because being a different codex they wanted to differentiate the codexes. Which the codex doesn't besides adding things. --Bobthe6th (talk) 15:10, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Indoctrination is not one-time thing, it has to be renewed from time to time. Post-Heresy Loyalist marines have brainwashing machines in-built into their sleeping cells, and chapter Librarians periodically check battle-brothers for deviations from their hypno-programming to ensure they never slip out of control (as this is often followed by heresy, desertion, or even chapter wars). During lengthy campaigns, when neither is available it is unheard of entire squads or even companies going rogue. Red Corsairs were on their ATSKNF leashes even when they fought imperials in Babab war (indoctrination ensures locality to their superiors, not Imperium ), but after they joined Chaos they stopped renewing their indoctrination, and became more free-willed at the cost of losing unnatural bravery. Mezmerro (talk) 15:51, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Given that the KI are not indoctrination comparable, and focus a lot of tactics on operatives with free-will... and are naturally chaos resistant... from a fluff perspective there is no actual fluff reason for more then normal indoctrination represented by the fairly high Ld8-9. and possibly something else to do with null auras. --Bobthe6th (talk) 15:57, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

• They really should not have ATSKNF for a few reasons: firstly as mentioned they don't get hypno training, and why would they considering they're supposed to be a Noblebright version of Space Marines? Making sure your underlings have undying loyalty to the Imperium by stripping their free will isn't something that seems up the Knights Inductor's alley, but even if they did it that still wouldn't matter because they're now a cursed founding chapter, and cursed founding chapters DO NOT get ATSKNF (barring really specific Cursed Knights who are mutants and semi-new Forgeworld stuff) thanks to a multitude of issues. I fail to see why the Knights Inductor would be an exception to this rule, if brainwashing really was that easy there'd be no reason to be so stingy with it. -- Triacom (talk) 20:17, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

• Main codex writer chiming in: I did have an idea for a modified ATSKNF to represent the Knights and to also give them a comparative weakness in CC. If you remember back to 5th edition, one would take extra wounds in order to stay in combat either as Fearless or ATSKNF marines. Name is still in the process, but I'd say it cut a nice balance to give Knights ATSKNF for their great level-headedness in general and for whatever indoctrination they do receieve, but in combat they'll suffer the old version of ATSKNF wounds to stay in a losing battle since they'd be much harder pressed to remain steady in the face of close-up enemies (especially since they place more emphasis on ranged combat, they can't possibly fit all the close-combat training possible due to longer training times). This would allow the Knights to be represented as what the people wanting ATSKNF in as: not nearly as brainwashed and relying more on long-term indoctrination and steady-mindedness from their gene-seed, but weaker and faltering in close combat. Remoon101 (talk) 23:23, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

So let me reiterate this: you're going to add a close-combat weakness for an army, that will never going to charge anything, and never going to be charged, because as a gunline it's going to snipe all transports at turn one and then wipe out all dedicated CC units. It's like giving Tau weakness for psychic Phase (the one they skip entirely) - it does not mean shit. ATSKNF is not only immunity to sweeping advances, which weans less and less in this shooty edition, but also Fear-immunity, and more importantly for a gunline - auto-regroup with normal movement AND heavy weapon firing on BS. Mezmerro (talk) 04:23, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Just replace ATSKNF with a general +1Ld+heroic leadership with a small point drop(like 2 ppm on most things, maybe 3ppm on charicters with Ld 10 already). Heroic leadership represents a combo of training and a null aura. --Bobthe6th (talk) 05:57, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

-2 ppm? That's generous. CSMs with VoLW have +1 Ld, no Legion/Bonding Knife-style heroic morale, and cost the same as loyalist marines. Mezmerro (talk) 08:56, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

I have no personal problem with ATSKNF on Knights. However, this proposed change will achieve literally nothing, aside from not letting Heavy Weapons count as having not moved, and will make things a lot cheaper. This proposed nerf is, at least to my mind, a massive buff, with the points cut. Your cure is worse than the "disease". Mirmidion43 (talk) 09:34, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Also, there has been a lot of painting the Knights as a gunline army. Let me reassure you that that is definitely not the only way to effectively play Knights Inductor. I almost never run Gunline, instead I use the unusual special weapons alignment and drop pods for a seriously nasty troops choice alpha strike or I run mech, with tons of cheap tanks. The latter has been very good against Tyranids especially, who often can't damage them at range and want to avoid the Vindicator Rush. Mirmidion43 (talk) 09:34, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

-3 was a number based off my vague memory that CSM were way cheaper then they are. Unless the new SM codex gave tacs -1ppm, CSM are 13 to SM 14, but they also lose chapter tactics... It has long been pointed out that this is not a fair trade. But yeah, no point drop, actual reliance on the morale mechanic.--Bobthe6th (talk) 14:56, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Then we get into whether that's fair: ATSKNF has to be worth something in points, especially if we're nerfing it via replacement. This is kind of a no-win suggestion, the ATSKNF is so deeply buried in a marine's cost that it's difficult to determine just how much of the 14 points it's worth. Clearly Chaos Marines don't have it right. Mirmidion43 (talk) 15:22, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

ATSKNF does not HAVE to be worth something in points, especially since the Knights Inductor have so much better gear right now that all their Sergeants have access to (AP 3 rifles for pretty much every Sergeant? Really?) not to mention the various special rules, if you removed ATSKNF you don't even need to replace it with anything to make it more it balanced. -- Triacom (talk) 01:06, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

No-one ever takes AAMR's on the Sarges, costs way too much, it's the new plasma pistol. Hell, I almost always leave the Sarge naked or with an Aceso, nothing more. And if ATSKNF wasn't worth anything, they wouldn't have altered the cost of a Chaos Marine at all. Mirmidion43 (talk) 09:55, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I never said it wasn't worth anything, I said it does not have to be, and that you can leave the price tag the same since they're otherwise so drastically above all other Space Marines that this would act as a soft nerf. -- Triacom (talk) 15:09, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• I've gone ahead and replaced ATSKNF on all Librarians for Stubborn, as is thematic. It actually works really well. It benefits the ATSKNF only marines, and represents them taking inspiration from the unaugmented Librarians standing beside them as equals. I've replaced ATSKNF on unarmored Ghost for Fearless, since he's probably missing a little something to be taking on greater Daemons head-on. Remoon101 (talk) 23:42, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

I think you should generally replace all ATSKNF with Stubborn, it fits far better with them being a Cursed Founding Chapter, and when the Cursed Founding's had actual rules one of the variants (specifically the Minotaurs) gave them Fearless (they had other downsides of course and were pricier). -- Triacom (talk) 05:09, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Stubborn will literally change nothing: In 90% of cases, when marines run away it is because a) you're in combat and lost badly or b) you were camping back and rolled poorly. The point you seem to be most complaining about, how ATSKNF buffs gunlines unfairly is kind of redundant, as if you fall back with ATSKNF, you're either camping RIGHT at the back and just ran off the board, or you were further up the field and just lost a hold of key ground that you need to move to get back, thus rendering Heavy Weapons pointless. Stubborn actually looks more like a buff to me. Mirmidion43 (talk) 09:34, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

When marines without ATSKNF run away after losing 2/3 of a squad, they need snake eyes to regroup or they keep running away until they run out of the board. Also, they can also fail their Ld 8-9 they deed for regrouping while still above critical loses. And KIs with their giant squads can really benefit from that auto-regroup. Stubborn on the other way only helps them in close combat and against barrage-boosted Pinning. Mezmerro (talk) 09:45, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Doesn't address the point about positioning. Also, with 6 man fire teams, you need to get down to 1 man left in the squad to need snake eyes to regroup, with 12, you need to get down to 3 men. That's not a lot of firepower, hell that's almost nothing. And failing Ld9 to regroup will only happen 1/6 times. That's just bad luck. Also, 24 man squads running together almost always have a fearless/Ld10 character with them that will make failing the check down to 1/18 or impossible. That's not counting the buff in combat and against barrage pinning. Mirmidion43 (talk) 09:57, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Chopping block

This codex is busted. It is SM+, and more units keep getting added.

My suggestions: Compress the two valk squadrons into one entry. This requires is just for sleekness.

Paladins. They do not need to exist. Like... just give terminators the option to take a null amp and upgrade to brotherhood of nulls.

cut tactical squad, it just pushes you over the limit of 2 troop choices for no good reason.

Need to cut or compress some of the heavy weapons choices... they have about as many tanks as the IG. And that is fucking retarded.

Make the codex target the equipped models unit, and once per round choice as the puretide emgram chip. Also make it once per army.

Cut ATSKNF so there is some room for building something around the chapters main drawback, the lack of hypnotheropy.

Why not use the Ultramarines Legion rules? There are pseudo ATSKNF in the newest HH Rulebook. - Ben (talk) 16:16, 21 June 2015 (UTC):

Will go ahead on the Valk suggestion, will have to shift things around to make it look good

Eh, Nope. I've always had an idea for minor Silencers and these are the incarnation of that idea.

They add a unit to an overly full codex, and compete with terminators for space. They add to bloat without either replacing an option, or providing anything interesting. It just feels like some palidens fell into the codex by accident. 2 wound terminators will always be bad, especially if they can't take storm shields to survive all the hate they will get.

They provide a Silencer Perils-proof safe-haven for Silencer Primaris and especially Rachnus. Remoon101 (talk) 11:37, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

How does that differ from adding the choice to pay some quantity of points as an option to add silencer minoritas to a terminator squad? They get +1 WS, +1 LD, +1 W over terminators. So mostly the two wounds... which both aren't really important and massively inflate their price. Especially without storm shields.--Bobthe6th (talk) 14:47, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Nope

Glad for the intelligent discussion, and thorough consideration of points made. Oh wait, you are just ignoring that in favor of unit bloat.

That's a bit harsh, it isn't necessarily unit bloat, it's a lot of fluff and general, "you are a space marine, therefore you will have tacticals". I see absolutely no reason to scrap them, if you want to rage about unit bloat, go pick on Tyranids or Eldar. Also, as the original creator of this dex, remoon kind of has the final say. Mirmidion43 (talk) 09:34, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm ignoring discussion because your suggestion on this doesn't merit one. Nope, not at all. If it does, it's with someone else, like Mirm here who's chipping in. Remoon101 (talk) 11:37, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Hey, in this case i'm literally just saying that what the guy is saying is too much, not really taking part. Mirmidion43 (talk) 12:10, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

It is a third troop choice. Unless you have a REALLY GOOD REASON, you should have two. There is no really good reason. It is getting the best of both chaos marine and space marines without penalty. I mean, the storm troopers are not as cheap as cultists, but they are STORM TROOPERS, so arguing they are that bad is hard. They still are DS troops with MTC and objective secured. You have scouts with slow and purposeful, the option of BS 5, and they get more weapons choices. This is a ton of options, about as many as most codices get, so then adding tacs on top... is both weird and precedent breaking. --Bobthe6th (talk) 14:47, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Man, you've been around just as long as I have, we were both there back in the 6th edition update, hell, you posted the first battle report way back then. There were three troops then and you didn't even bat an eyelid. The tacs were the original, the others were added. And as for precedent on three troops, check out Tyranids, Eldar, Daemons and Guard before they put heavy weapons teams into the platoon. Even the new space marine book, if you're willing to count the Black Templar one as a troops choice. As for the BS5 scouts, that should probably be dropped. It isn't particularly weird to have three troops, just a little bit unusual for Space Marines. It perfectly fits the fluff and I see no reason to drop them. If anything, Guard Aspirants as a unit should go, and they're entirely fluffy as well. Mirmidion43 (talk) 15:22, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

I hadn't tried writing a codex, or played much at that point. The reason for the two troop type limit is to limit the amount of coverage you can get from your troops. Grey knights have terminators and marines, setting the theme of more elite marines and keeping troops from ever being cheap objective holders. CSM have marines and cultists. There mortal allies are cheap but weak, and in general they lose the board control of normal marines. The 4 cult troops effectively replace marien choice as they is generally no reason to take any after you pay to unlock the cult. The idea goes on. Tyranids have really two choices, as horm/termigaunts should be one unit with an upgrade option to the other and the bomb spores... are really weird. Deamons are 4 armies slammed together, and if you care about the warp storm table you should have a mono god army... which means 1-2 troop choices. Finally Eldar... something about that codex gives game makers massive raging hard ons. I don't know why or how. They are not a template for anything, even dark eldar(who follow the two troops rule).

The only mono God that genuinely works is Nurgle, aside from that, combining is almost always the way to go in Daemons. Also, Tyranids, you forgot about Warriors and Rippers. They're both troops as well. And the other two, you didn't even mention. Mirmidion43 (talk) 22:34, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Nope, they have as many choices as SM, and it's a lot of choices like SM (did you not see the part where vanilla gets TWO AA vehicles whereas KI has ONE?

Wow they randomly started letting marines take as many vehicles as they want, and you were doing it before it was cool... man that is dumb, but whatever, it is how the game is or something.

Indeed, lament the 7th edition bloat 11:37, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

More that heavy support slots should mean something, but now SM can take 9 tanks and pretend to be guard. Which is... really silly.--Bobthe6th (talk) 14:47, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

1st part: that makes sense, I'll see if I work that in. 2nd: I don't know how that works, you'll have to elaborate a bit. 3rd: Goes against fluff. I understand your concern but I'd rather make it cost a little more than to put a restriction against fluff

the Puretide Engram Chip is the comparable and not utterly borked version of the data slate. It is from Tau, and it is basically a relic you can only take on crisis suit commanders and some other crisis suits. Each turn, you chose from {monster hunter, Tank hunter, Counter attack, furious charge, or stubborn}, the equipped model gets the rule until next turn. It costs 15 points, and is an insanely good value. The data slate is this, but better because it used to gives the rule to any unit... and can give out interceptor. As is, there is no reason not to take them on any HQ, because it is always going to be 20 points insanely well spent. If it only hits the users squad, gets a slightly different list(Monster hunter, Tank hunter, Split fire, interceptor), and can be changed each turn... it is probably fine. Also, fluff reason why the slate is one/army, it is hard to understand and properly apply the teachings of the data slate. Only a few of the Knights commanders have grasped it enough to use. So, most carry one, but the wargear is only bought once per army.

Alright, thanks for the clarification. It does seem like this version makes more sense,

I propose a different version above instead (5th edition ATSKNF) Remoon101 (talk) 23:33, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

were did you post it?--Bobthe6th (talk) 02:44, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

I propose we replace ATSKNF with a general +1Ld+heroic leadership with a small point drop(like 2 ppm on most things, maybe 3ppm on charicters with Ld 10 already). Heroic leadership represents a combo of training and a null aura. --Bobthe6th (talk) 05:58, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Conversation on that suggestion above ^ Mirmidion43 (talk) 09:35, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

I looked into the horus heresy thing with the ultramarines rite of war or whatever it was and it actually seems interesting. Probably better than my modified ATSKNF no doubt. I'll think more on it but it could probably work a lot better and it'd allow for a decent points drop across the board. Remoon101 (talk) 11:37, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Man, you kind of came from the blue here, with a very angry list. Maybe tone it down a tad? Actually provide reasoning for your points, rather than a board sweeping statement that will likely get ignored? I dunno, it seems like you just jumped on another out of the blue bandwagon. Also, Chopping Block? Really? When you've barely posted before, you come in with something like that? Ease your way in and listen to all sides, don't jump the gun. Mirmidion43 (talk) 09:34, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

I was the first person to post playtest data for the KI... fuck, I made up the AAMR. If I wasn't here from the beginning, I was here before the other two co authors. I just didn't check in for a couple months. Normally, with custom codexes, that would mean I missed some minor edits. Then I saw the walls of text added. Then I noticed how long it takes to read it all again, and how many random extra units there are. I know this codex, and I know their fluff. They were the first thing that got me interested in 40k, and I was reading both it and the thousand sons codex before I even knew how to play. --Bobthe6th (talk) 14:47, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

I was referring to Ben with my point. Either way, I have been around just as long, man. I was the one who came up with the stats for the AAMR literally two days after it's original posting that have since then stayed practically the same the entire time - it used to be S6 AP4 and I said that, in order to fit the fluff of it being designed to drop a target with no questions asked, it needed to be S7 or AP 3 and we went with AP3, with a strength cut to balance. I was the one who triggered the 6th edition update in its entirety, by fiddling with prices and attracting Remoon's attention. I remember when you posted that battle report, Bob, I remember how we looked at Xavion and realised then just how potent he could be. It has been literal years, Bob, and we've both been around the entire time. Mirmidion43 (talk) 15:22, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Major Change Proposed - ATSKNF Related

Indomitable Spirit- Knights Inductor are all but immune to hypnotherapy, allowing them to retain much more of their humanity than other Astartes. However this leaves them vulnerable to human fears, and thus like Legionnaires of old they must rely on their own steady-mindedness, training, experience and resolve to face the dangers of M41. A Knight Inductor unit with this rule may regroup normally even when under 25% unit strength. In addition, they take Regroup and Fear tests on the unit's highest unmodified Leadership.

• Convictus Oath- If the unit contains any character with a Leadership of 10, it instead counts as having And They Shall Know No Fear so as long as said characters are alive.

Legendary Presence- All Knights Inductor may use Randi's leadership of 10, but do not benefit from Convictus Oath unless it contains a character with a natural Leadership of 10.

The only Knight Inductor characters with And They Shall Know No Fear (ignoring Indomitable Spirit) is Xavion due to his gene seed defect (or non-defect). And possibly Rachnus due to him honestly not really having much of a soul to begin with, however this would interact quite weirdly with his other rules. But as a 300pt model he needs to have some form of ATSKNF/Fearless that sets him apart from his comrades.

With the edit, all Knights Inductor characters would have And They Shall Know No Fear and benefit whatever squad they join.

This change would result in either a 1pt or 2pt drop in points cost at best across the board, and 5pt-10pts for HQ's and some special characters. This is based off of the Horus Heresy Ultramarines Rite of War and my own idea for a modified ATSKNF blended together.

Currently I'm set on a 2pt flat drop on all baseline units affected by this change except for those who will benefit from Ld10 Convictus Oath or have And They Shall Know No Fear in the first place.

Differences summarized:

• Knights Inductor units with the exception of those affected by Convictus Oath (those with a Ld10 character or Ld10 from Randi) can be wiped in close combat.
• Those affected by Convictus Oath cannot be wiped, as per And They Shall Know No Fear
• Knights Inductor units in general are no longer immune to Fear.
• Knights Inductor units in general can no longer auto-regroup, and count as having moved when they do regroup.
• The only Knights Inductor unit with ATSKNF (or some form of Fearless) would be all Knights Inductor HQs, special characters and Ghost Sergeant Jonnahas. Librarians would only have stubborn.

Changes in pricing:

• Minus 1pt or 2pts across the board, which (with Empyrean Anathema) would bring us to baseline Space Marines, without the benefits of ATSKNF notably. We still get a free Veteran Sergeant upgrade which will help a little with points efficiency.
• Possibly Horus Heresy influenced pricing, with models beyond the first 6 being 1pt or 2pts cheaper. In HH squads have a minimum 10man requirement with a significant price reduction for models beyond that (-5pts for tacts), encouraging larger squads. This would also in turn encourage slightly larger squads in the Knights Inductor and would help us be a little points efficient as well.

• I have just decided that we're not going to do this. Not really that much of a point and we'll be good enough being worth as much as regular Space marines (though more vulnerable in general).

Remoon101 (talk) 21:21, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

HH pricing doesn't work so well with big squads because combat squads means you are just getting cheaper normal tac squads and bigger troop devastator squads(the heavy/special squad that splits off). Bigger squads are already better then any other codex, they don't need to be cheaper.--Bobthe6th (talk) 21:33, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

I like the concept of the oath. It does fit in quite nicely. Although, I reckon Silencers need to be Fearless then, and Silencer perils reworded to allow for the check to be taken regardless. Chaplains maybe grant Stubborn? The HH pricing seems to be another lean towards the Knights playing a lot like a legion, I see nothing wrong with that. Mirmidion43 (talk) 22:34, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

I also like the concept, but I think making the leadership check on an unmodifiable Ld 10 and making them take AP - wounds with the Ld 10 character isn't a good idea since there's many other things that might happen to take a model off the table, their courage might fail and they'll run away, they might have an bones broken or some other injury preventing them from fighting by trying to stop the enemy from overrunning them. Also it's a bad idea to base your pricing off of the Horus Heresy since they pay a premium to get the squad that only becomes worth it if the squad is maxed out, and the Knights Inductor don't pay any sort of premium. -- Triacom (talk) 01:14, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I am willing to budge on the unmodifiable Ld10 check, since along with that rule in the original Ultramarines Rite of War they would also have penalties for leadership dying since they're relying so rigidly on a chain of command; something that the Knights are much more flexible about. However I can't really see any kind of Space Marine leadership turning tail or dying like that. Space Marines aren't just like that, and even with the Chaos Space Marines most of them have Fearless so that they'll keep on fighting. I've edited Indomitable Spirit to use the squad's unmodified leadership, and made it so that Ld10 squads just have And They Shall Know No Fear. This honestly would simplify a lot of things for me in regards to leadership interactions with the current special rules. And if it doesn't make sense, try arguing in your mind with a 200+ year veteran who's seen more shit than you will in several lifetimes that they'll turn tail and run when the going gets tough.

For pricing all baseline squads without Ld10 would be changed as mentioned before and all the leaders would remain the same price. So with the edits I just made, base line squads without a Ld10 character or IC are a bit weaker and can't regroup/resist fear as well. Those with Ld10 are basically at the level of regular space marines (sort of like how Fearless can be for ATSKNF marines, though we know ATSKNF is technically better).

After doing some initial mathing for the new pricing, I've also decided that the HH pricing is not really going to work. I'd have to make certain upgrades more expensive to compensate and it's just not worth it. Remoon101 (talk) 20:09, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Another thing to suddenly start bothering me after years.

How do the knights have such high numbers? To make more marines, you need to have marines dying. The knights are all about stealth and avoiding conflict. Their casualties should be very low when compared to other chapters. Which means less gene seed flowing into the chapters supplies. Sure you are always going to have a trickle coming in from the unavoidable casualties, on the other hand you are always losing marines in ways that leave their geneseed unusable. Lost to corruption, disintegration, or even mysteriously lost on exploration missions.

You don't NEED marines to die to make more marines, you can make marines by making marines as every marine has two pieces of gene-seed that are removed at different points, one when they become a space marine, the other when they die. So long as they can keep making marines and the stock is uncorrupted they'd be just fine. -- Triacom (talk) 07:15, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Progenoids are ready to remove 5 and 10 years after initiate becomes marine, but they are not removed immediately. I don't know exactly why, but it looks like harvesting progenoids from a living marine could be lethal. Mezmerro (talk) 08:52, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

From pure memory, the progenoid operation is the main element of Apothecary training and is the single most competent thing they are trained in. It's non lethal thanks to their training and ability to perform the operation. It would be kinda redundant to have a method of only gaining elements of the Gene Seed upon death if they grew newly every 5-10 years, you would develop a method of increasing Marine numbers to increase the number of times you can get new gene seed from one to 1 x every 7.5 years the marine has been alive +1 for death. The gene seed was more or less perfected over time by Emps, who would have seen this kind of thing. Mirmidion43 (talk) 12:11, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Also, if you check the new fluff page thing, the numbers aren't so impressive any more. Mirmidion43 (talk) 12:11, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Land Speeder Storm

Continues to not have a codex entry, only appearing under scouts as a dedicated transport. --Bobthe6th (talk) 06:26, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Like, this is either a typo, or a missing unit entry. Also, issue that the scouts base unit is larger then the speeders capacity... So it has to be a variant. --Bobthe6th (talk) 04:35, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Melee Wargear on the Chopping Block

Alright, well this is probably going to be the unpopular opinion here. I do think that the Knights Inductor need to have most, if not close to all of their melee options slashed from the codex. Given their status as "Shooty, Sneeki Breeki Marinez", I don't think they need to have ridiculous stuff like Thunder Hammers, Claws, or god forbid those brand new 1-shot vehicles bombs that Remmy just added. These guys are supposed to be considerably less effective in melee than normal marines, why not make it so by going the same way Tau did to accomplish that?

I agree to a point, some of it should go, but the Knights will always be Space Marines and thus will have punchup capacity - Think of them as dakka like the Necrons, they can still punch shit in a tight spot. And sneaky makes for best ambush.

I can see where you're coming from, but I think it's stupid from a Knight's point of view. Why in the world would any Space Marine neglect their close-quarters arms in a universe where Orks are bearing down on you, anything with spiky bits wants to get in close and even Guardsmen will swarm you with their bayonets and Lasgun butts. Before being "Limp-fished Tau in Power Armor" I see them as "Pragmatic Space Marines", and I even rewrote the part where Vanguard Veterans weren't being trained anymore because Zakis would not be pants on head retarded to neglect CC, no matter how better shooting at range may be. We are NOT Tau. We are Space Marines first and foremost and even if it adds many more years than a normal space marine to tack on close combat training, we will God-Emperor damned do it because to excel in all fields of battle is what a Space Marine does. Whether it be in a sub-lethal engagement with Shock Mauls and Riot Shields or in no-holds-barred brawl against Traitor Marines/Tyranids/etc. we will NOT be found wanting when it comes to using our blades, fists, claws and hammers. Remoon101 (talk) 23:13, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Stop, you're thinking in terms of the Mary-Sue marines. Look, these guys will rarely if ever need things like Lightning Claws and Big Freakin' Hammers. If you haven't noticed already, nearly all of the special characters utilize Power Swords. Xavion has one. Garven Brias has one. Roland Darren has one. Captain Isaac has one too(Though it's more of a chainsword that counts as a power sword). The melee options really should be limited for balance sake. So it should be kept to Shock Knuckles, Power Swords, Melta Bombs, Shock Mauls, and whatever that new thing your making is. By the by, I just came up with a lower bounds of 65 points for that Haywire bomb thingy, with an upper bounds of 85 points. They really need to be limited in melee options for AP2, as heavy fighting just isn't a thing that the knights really expect to get into. Evilexecutive (talk) 02:36, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

And by that definition all Space Marines are Mary Sues. Space Marines were always Mary Sue-ish to a point in the sense that they could handle themselves equally in CC and ranged combat. That's literally their shtick in game and in universe. I don't know what you're trying to argue here anymore. I honestly think it's silly to say that Knights will be reduced to slapping if you approach them in close-combat, or that they otherwise can't use specialized combat tools like any other Space Marine provided they have the training. I could see you complaining if Tactical marines had access to power weapons and Suppressors got chainswords that could upgraded to lightning claws, but as it is with CC-oriented units getting CC-oriented tools? Nah uh

Also I dunno about the 65pt limit considering other armies with access to Haywire grenades can get more hits for a much less cost. I was thinking along the lines of 20-25pts. Maybe 30pts, that's pushing it into "I'll never buy this except lulz" territory. I've also edited it to be One Use Only. Remoon101 (talk) 02:51, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

A fluff point that doesn't exactly make it into the codex due to the codex's stance on representing the Knights as being fully-armed for deadly combat: Knights Inductor actually have to have MORE close-combat training than regular Space Marines in the sense that they also train in sub-lethal, non-lethal and restrictive techniques that I could see a lot of other Chapters not really giving a frak about. That's one reason why I edited the Incursions squads to be a bit more "Riot-gear and stun-gear repurposed" in their entry with their starting equipment. This of course bogs down their training speed but unfortunately that's something that can't really be shown in the codex easily, since you'd be fielding somewhat bloodied Incursion Knights, not an experienced Scout who just got into power armor and is learning how to make sub-orbital descents with a jump pack for the first time. Remoon101 (talk) 03:07, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

They are 15% slower, and training can only do so much. As the knights have shown so often, the answer isn't to ignore a problem or rush it head on, but to work around it. They don't have the inbuilt training, and probably not that much call to go straight into close combat. What they do have is the need to keep fast moving scary threats off their long range guns. Replace the incursion squad with some kind of skirmishers. Like the suggestion below. --Bobthe6th (talk) 04:35, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

A Space Marine being slower than a Space Marine by a small margin is still faster than a human. As the Knights have known from bloody experience, that one can't always ignore a problem or skirt around it, because said problem may be bearing down on them without a care for how shooty they are. They can simply train longer, and those who stay in the Incursion squads can take the extra training while those who've gained the bare minimum move onto the Suppression squads. Congratulations, you've described Biker squads, who fulfill the same role, or Landspeeders, or Attack Bikes, or either pattern of Valkyries. Remoon101 (talk) 12:39, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Then what is the point of fluffing them as slower? IF THEY HAVE A WEAKNESS, MAKE IT AN ACTUAL FUCKING WEAKNESS. They can't ignore close combat, so they don't. They work around it instead, with tarpits and delaying tactics. They can't 1v1 most marines, so they have to use delaying tactics. Jet packs break them from bikers, and allow them to play skirmish games with the enemy. --Bobthe6th (talk) 19:44, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Fuck. I wrote an entire paragraph and shit but I don't give a fuck anymore. I'm never removing Incursion squads. You're welcome to refine your Skirmishers and add them in as another FA or possible Elites experimental unit. I've made a major change to the codex across the board as a result of this discussion. No, Knights didn't get any slower. I took a look at canon fluff about gene-seeds/implants and realized that there's a lot of holes in the KI's fluff that I don't really want to discuss it since codex writing is more my thing, instead of extensive fluff-writing. Remoon101 (talk) 23:04, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Well, you have my email, so shoot me a text whenever you get the chance to point out these holes to me. Narrative fluff writing is more of my specialty anyway, so I think I could take a crack at any holes you've found and fix them up. That's pretty much what the rewrite is for. Evilexecutive (talk) 01:51, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Let me pull out a quote then. "What the hell are you doing here? This is a choppy squad in a shooty army. Don't take this unless you're looking to throw away points on expensive as hell Suicide Squads. They have pretty much no worthwhile options except to put Captain Isaac in them, and try to cap objectives in Maelstrom. Even then Mounted Knights will do that job easier." your own tactica admits the current unit is a shit. They do nothing that other units don't do, or an allied attachment will do with much greater ease. The only reason they are in here is as token fluff support... which is not entirely is support of them. The other reason is that "they are marines, so they need a jump assault squad", but all their other mirror squads are modified heavily. All the incursion squad did was get... get a better close combat weapon? lame. --Bobthe6th (talk) 01:29, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Oh, oh, the malfuncion... reduce to I3 for most units. Also, I have been messing around with a role shift for the assault squads.

jet pack infantry or some such varient. Or add a "stabilizers" rule to the jump pack. As is they break theme for the army, and are like... kinda the worst.

Stabilizers: Jump infantry with this special rule can not use their jump packs during the assault phase. They gain the relentless special rule.

Add options to take ranged weapons, and redesign Rico to be good.

This makes them a very mobile ranged threat, which is something the codex is lacking. You have bikes... and maybe land speeders?

Skirmish Squad - 90pts

"Come on, follow the little birdy you big stupid Xeno..."

[s]Unlike most chapters the Knights Inductor sends their rising battle brothers from the Scouts to the Skirmish squads rather than their equivalent of Devastator squads. This is merely to get any last bit of close combat training done and out of the way before moving on with the more important aspects of Knight Inductor warfare.[/s]~cut because this is silly.

The malfunctioning Omophagea of the knights renders them slightly slower in combat, so they have had to adapt their close combat specialists. The skirmisher Squads are the knight's version of assault squads, built to harry the enemy rather then get stuck in. With modified jump packs made for less powerful more controlled flight.

In combat the skirmishers employ hit and run tactics, and drawing enemy forces away from distracting their brothers.

This near complete lack of emphasis on close combat has effectively led to the disintegration of full Vanguard Veteran squads as a fighting force. However the few hot-headed Aspirants who pursue this close to combat fighting and the experience of being face-to-face with their enemies may choose to become one regardless. These grizzled Veterans learn to deal with their slight deficiency in reaction times by honing their instincts through years upon years of experience fighting much of what the universe has to throw at them. They have their place in teaching Incursion squads the importance of being able to get in close and get out, without getting bogged down in dangerous close combat.

Name	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
Knight	4	4	4	4	1	4	1	8	3+
Sergeant	4	4	4	4	1	4	2	9	3+
V. Veteran	5	4	4	4	1	4	2	9	3+

Unit Composition: 5 Knights Inductor, 1 Inductor Sergeant

Unit Type: Infantry (Inductor Sergeant is Character)

Wargear: Power Armour, Bolter, Flash bolts, Shock Maul, Blind & Krak Grenades

Options:

• May upgrade the Sergeant to a Vanguard Veteran w/ power sword and bolt pistol for +20 pts.
• May include up to 18 additional Knights for: +15pts per model.
• The entire squad may take Jet Packs: +3pts per model(dunno if this is correct for jet)
• For every 6 models, two models may exchange their Bolter for:

-Flamer: +5pts

-Meltagun: +10pts

• The Sergeant and Vanguard Veteran may replace their Bolter and/or Shock Maul with:

-a MK 40 plasma pistol: +10pts

-a storm shield: +15pts

-a power weapon or lightning claw: +15pts

-a power fist: +25pts

-a thunder hammer or pair of lightning claws: +30pts

• The Sergeant and Vanguard Veteran may take:

-Meltabombs, Electro-Shackles: +5pts

-teleport homer: +15pts

-Aceso: +25pts

• One models may take:

-Seismic Charge: +10pts

• May take Inductor pattern Rhino, Razorback, or Aprior pattern Drop pod as a Dedicated Transport

Special Rules: Empyrean Anathema, Fire teams, The Unseen, Indomitable Spirit

Vanguard Veteran only:

• Hit and Run
• Leader of Aspirants - The Vanguard veteran is a character when joined to a unit, who becomes an Independent Character if his entire unit is wiped out or if he chooses to leave it.

--Bobthe6th (talk) 04:30, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

See this? This is what I mean when I say I want to see KI Balanced more for shooty. I really like the idea of Skirmisher marines that use Jet Packs to harass enemies and delay them. As it stands here, using a bolter instead of a bolt pistol means they shoot more, but get less attacks in melee. That's an important point to make, as I do feel this is exactly how they would be using assault marines.Evilexecutive (talk) 05:32, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

You're missing the point: there is no BALANCING for more shooty in terms of units. Neither there is a need to remove dedicated close combat assault units from a Chapter that has need of them. I can see why the loss of ATSKNF is spurring this discussion on, but even if not all Knights got the full close combat regimen described, there would obviously be those dedicated assault units for the Chapter's needs of a buffer for their backline amongst other uses for a CC unit (i.e. the KI's Kroot for the rest of their shooting army). The key to making a shooty Chapter more shooty isn't to remove important key CC units, nor is it to replace them with tactical-marines on wings'.

(After the next few posts, but responding to this one)But Incursion squads are not "key" to anything, CC or otherwise. I see no reason to take them, because nothing in the codex supports them. Kroot are used as tarpits with a side of sniper fire. They are still terrible in melee, but only notable because nothing else in the codex can even do that much melee. Also they are cheap. The incursion squad is neither of those things. --Bobthe6th (talk) 01:51, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

And you didn't think I hadn't already thought of Bolter-Marines with Jump Packs? I didn't put them into the codex out of modelling design concerns. Yes, the Skirmisher marines are a unique idea that I thought of, though their current incarnation here is schizophrenic and has rules flaws that cripple the Vanguard Veteran's purpose amongst other things. The lack of Angelus-Pattern boltguns here conflicts with the Vanguard Veteran's Hit&Run. The close-range range nature of all the weapons listed in the entry also conflict with the squad's purpose of shooting and jumping. You're more thinking along the lines of a jetpack, rather than a jump pack unit, though I don't think the KI have the tech to create a relentless platform like such.

(After the next few posts, but responding to this one)This is a mock up that took ~5 minutes editing the old unit. Also, with relentless from their packs they can still shoot flash bolts, charge, and then Hit&run in the opponents assault phase. --Bobthe6th (talk) 01:51, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Despite my criticism, I've always believed however that the Skirmisher Marines (Tactical marines on wings) had merit, but the way they're written here doesn't work. At least not in the way you probably intended. If you guys made up a suitable excuse for having jetpacks, you might have a new Fast Attack choice or maybe a new Experimental Infantry Elites unit in your hands. Remoon101 (talk) 12:32, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Once upon a time, in a land long long ago, the Knights Inductor already had jetpack assault marines that could take bolters and closer range special weapons. I remember these, because they got changed in the 6th ed overhaul to be just regular assault marines with the Vanguard Veteran shtick. I personally can see the merit of both sides of the argument, however, I believe that we should definitely keep SOME kind of CC squad, the Knights are supposed to be vaguely Codex compliant, except for the tech units, the silencers and the whole rejigging of scouts. I personally am voting for the keeping for the Assault squad and the addition of a special/heavy weapons platform with jetpacks almost exactly like a Crisis Suit team, only space marines. Mirmidion43 (talk) 12:48, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for catching that mistake for me Mirm on the Codex edit. And yes, even Codex compliance aside, it makes sense from a fluff standpoint for the Knights to keep dedicated assault units on hand for buffer units, alpha strike units (I mean hell! It's in the Reasonable Marines original fluff!) for a decapitation strike or what have you. I can see a redone "Skirmisher" unit as an Experimental Infantry unit testing out prototype Jetpacks for use as a mobile weapons platform somewhat different from Bikes. Remoon101 (talk) 13:07, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

A decapitation force is a captain+command squad with jet packs, storm shields, power weapons, and an asceo. An actual version is more likely to be drop poded in. --Bobthe6th (talk) 01:51, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

More Melee Wargear! (A redoing of Shock weapons)

I noticed that a lot of codicies (including the one I got the original Shock Maul idea from, Orks 5th edition), have taken a different approach to electrical taser weapons than the Poisoned route as of late. So I'm thinking of redoing Shock weapons into pseudo-Power weapons style with 2-3 different types and all with a Tesla-esque sort of rule (extra hits, either 1 or 2). These would be done basically like Taser Goads/Lances from the Skitarii codex.

Shock Weapons - These electrically charged weapons are normally harmless and used extensively in dealing with foes who refuse to lay down their arms in surrender. When facing deadlier foes, the charge of these peacetime weapons can be ramped up considerably, wreathing enemies in painful coruscating arcs of energy.

Name	Range	S	AP	Type
Shock Dagger	Melee	U-1	-	Shock*
Shock Baton	Melee	U	-	Shock*
Shock Maul	Melee	U+2	-	Shock*

• Shock- Each roll of 6 to hit causes an additional 2 hits automatically.

I dunno exactly where I'm going with this as of yet (especially on pricing). Shock Mauls (the units that currently have them) will probably be replaced with Shock Batons. Power weapons WILL NOT be replaced by Shock Weapons, though they'll just be cheaper melee options for characters. Shock Daggers (basically your hand-held Taser) will be relegated to Squad Issue Wargear, purchasable for an entire unit to give themselves as a slight edge perhaps in combat at a relatively cheap price perhaps. Remoon101 (talk) 00:02, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Why not just make them force a blind test on a 6 to hit? The melee plan of the army seems to be making use of blind tests. --Bobthe6th (talk) 01:33, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

The problem with blind tests is that they're generally unreliable against Elite armies. If there was going to be a WS/BS reducing mechanic with these, I'd rather it be more reliable at the cost being less crippling. Remoon101 (talk) 19:38, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

So I was going to say something flippant about a minor debuff being non relevant. Which made me look at the WS table. Then a lot of time looking through codexes at WS values. Then some more time writing up an alternate WS table that actually makes WS<9 relevant. For this conversation though, I can say a -1 WS debuff will generally be helpful, and act generally as a +1 to hit. Also it makes guardsmen hit the marines on 5s, which is good. Something like -1 WS on a 6 to hit?--Bobthe6th (talk) 05:50, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

WS -1 knights

I don't personally buy this. It said they were slower, not less skilful. Also, 15% doesn't warrant a 25% cut. If anything, initiative should take the hit, not WS. WS is entirely removed from reaction time - they still have better reaction time than humans and if being in combat for a while = +1 BS on guardsmen vets, being trained for an age and a day should give them WS 4. Hell, ORKS are WS4 and Space Marines are stated in fluff to be vastly superior to Orks in hand to hand fighting skills. Mirmidion43 (talk) 03:11, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Also WS doesn't really matter. You still win slap fights with other things not meant to be in CC by virtue of toughness 4 and a 3+ save. Initiative has a massive affect on how the army plays, and forces them to avoid combat most of the time. --Bobthe6th (talk) 06:10, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

A Very annoyed, and desperately sleep deprived evilexecutive stares at the point costs. can I just say that I'm not happy about this at all? This happened mixed in with a bunch of other unrelated edits, and then got buried deep enough that I didn't notice it until hours later. What kind of stupid idea is this, making marines WS4 and reducing their cost to below normal marines? I'm not even conscious enough to argue why this is incredibly stupid, so I guess I'll leave you guys to it while I get some sleep.Evilexecutive (talk) 06:54, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Then we are in agreement, I'll undo the WS related changed once I get to a proper computer. If anything I think the fluff is flawed enough for us just leave the Knights as they were in regards to ther genetic flaws enough for me to ignore their slightly lower reaction times. The Omophagea is not even directly related to hypno-therapy reception and I have a strange feeling 15% was a magic number pulled out of a hat by NLP when he first originally wrote the flawed Return of the Reasonable Marines and the accompanying fluff for the KI. Remoon101 (talk) 16:59, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

The fact -1 WS is dumb, doesn't make other changes relating to CC bad. WS is just undervalued because the WS table is weird and poorly balanced. Initative is not, and I 3 is not the worst. It means you will lose CC with other marines most of the time. Which makes sense, as CC is not the codexes specialty. Much like blood angels do not have as good ranged options as the Knights are rocking. --Bobthe6th (talk) 05:07, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Reducing Squad cap to 12

Look, this still bothers me and pretty much everyone I talk to. Most people(Including me) really don't like the idea that Codex: Knights Inductor allows for squad caps of up to 24 guys. It's pretty ridiculous, and awfully game breaking in many circumstances. I get that the original fluff(Which is kinda defunct, and inherently flawed), mentions 24-man squads, but that really doesn't make sense from pretty much any standpoint. Why have a Tactical, Stealthy Chapter take monster-sized squads of 24 guys, when that's not even remotely close to the idea of tactical warfare. Look, we aren't beholden to the old fluff with this codex, not when game balance is our primary concern here. The New Fluff could very easily be changed to suit the idea that they deploy in up to 12 man teams, where two guys carry a heavy weapon.

It's also pretty game breaking in a few matters, most notably with Squad Issue Wargear, and Kill Points.

• Squad Issue Wargear is given based on a fixed cost, as well as Acesos. At most you're paying 1.02 points per model for a Feel No Pain, or somewhere around .5 points for a single piece of Specialty Ammunition. That's pretty damn broken, and has almost no precedent at all in this game.

• In any game with kill points, it would allow you to effectively cheat by merging your entire army into just 3 squads, denying your opponent the ability to even stand a chance.

• In games without kill points, you could just break the squad into 4 units for snagging objectives

• It lets you cheat certain formations to get extreme benefits, by having some 99% of your army benefited by the same exact formation.

• It's also entirely redundant as well for the Visor Upgrades and Aceso, especially if you split the squad. Because they're based on the sarg, you'll have up to 18 guys unaffected by a 25~ point upgrade.

Let's also mention fluffwise, it's not really viable to have 24 guys led by a single Sarg. Legion Astartes got away with 20+ man space marine squads, because they didn't have combat squads. EVERYONE had to carry the same weapon, and everyone had to stick together in order to remain a coherent fighting force. If you're a Sarg in charge of 23 other marines, you might get away with commanding your team in two halves over the Vox, but splitting 24 guys into four teams means it's pretty much impossible to be anything other than an incoherent mess.

I might also note that in Guardsmen Squads, those 30+ men platoons had one Sergeant for every 10 guys. That's because you need to have a sort of chain of command, and dedicated leaders to ensure the entire group remains coherent.

After running a playtest with Knights Inductor against Tau Auxiliary(Another Fandex), I've obtained some notes on Tactical Fire Teams. In this test, I ran an army with a full 24-man squad with Plasma Cannons, Kraken Bolts, and an Aceso, all abusing the shit out of Squad Issue Wargear shennanigans. Unfortunately I've found that 24-man squads are pretty much garbage even with Squad Issue shennanigans. They were effectively limited to killing only a single unit each turn, and on turn 2 got tarpitted by specialist deep strikers, meaning I was down nearly 500 points worth of killing power for a turn. Here's the playtest, since absolutely none of the other editors ever bother to run 24-man squads(And for good reason). http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Talk:Codex_-_Tau_Auxiliary#1500:_Codex_Tau_Auxiliary_VS_Codex_Knights_Inductor-_Dragoon_and_evilexectuive

I seriously think that 24-man squads is not something truly reasonable marines would ever do. It causes them to lose nearly all semblance of tactical flexibility, and leaves them extremely vulnerable to certain very obvious tactics. In a fit of fucking irony, 24-men actually makes the army EVEN MORE VULNERABLE to melee. Space Marines NEED to have tactical flexibility, else they go down no different from guardsmen.Evilexecutive (talk) 15:57, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Index Astartes: Knights Inductor Mk. II

It looks like it's been almost a year since I started posting revision-related stuff here, but I've finally "completed" (in the sense that there's something written for every section) a Mk. II revision and re-imagining of the old Index Astartes: User:Not LongPoster Again/Index Astartes Knights Inductor Mk. II. I'll go over the volumes of material you've posted in the meantime (I haven't been paying lots of attention to what's going on here, just that there's stuff happening) and see how this fits in, but I'm curious for your feedback. My design goals for this re-write have been:

• Why would the Imperium found or tolerate a chapter of Reasonable Marines? (Answer: the Imperium did it intentionally after the Nova Terra Interregnum, knowing that they couldn't afford to stay divided. Naturally, compromises ensue.)
• It's not just the Knights' game -- of course the Index Astartes focuses on them, but they don't get to play around in a vacuum anymore.
• Handle the Sisters' involvement better. The original "An investigation..." says they're there and working with the Knights, but my goal has been to overhaul why that is.

If this looks promising to you all, I've got an overhaul of the Aprior Sector sitting on my hard drive that I'll put up as well.

--Not LongPoster Again (talk) 00:11, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

EvilExecutive Here, I've previously held my own attempt at recreating the fluff to be Truer to Canon. But my first attempt at it was disastrous, and caused a huge shit-storm on /tg/. Since then I've been quietly introducing new fluff through the Collapsible Fluff Dividers, things like further details about Rachnus, a solid design for what Mandate Is(The World's Sexiest Bolter!), and trying to better fluff out silencers. But alas, it's slow going, and as a writer I'm solely dependent on Fae Moods to do all of my writing. I'm glad to have the original writer here to bounce ideas around with on fixing up the knights. Evilexecutive (talk) 01:09, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

So, we can pretty easily agree that these guys are a Cursed Founding in the new minting of them. Which can mean things like Mixed Stock, and I noticed that you put it down that they were "Officially" ultramarines stock. I suppose it might be possible to say that their gene-seed is a mixed stock of two or more lines, like say Ultramarines for the baseline, and then adding in Raven Guard(Which is unstable, but is a tried and true gene-seed for tactical oriented chapters like the Raptors), and of course including the artificial "null gene". Evilexecutive (talk) 01:09, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Last notes for tonight, I would really like to address the subject of 24-man squads with you. In both Theorycrafting and actual testing(in Vassal, and IRL), me and many of the other editors have found that 24-man squads are simply not Viable at all for space marines. I wanted to ask what you thought about on getting rid of the 24-man squad idea entirely, and just replacing it with 12-man teams(Which work a lot better).Evilexecutive (talk) 01:11, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

The reason I had them use 24-man squads was as an administrative excuse for getting to 3000 Marines without attracting attention from brief oversight -- if actually deploying that many at once would be impractical, then maybe the 24-man thing can be restated as an entirely administrative thing (i.e. "paper squads" composed of two combat squads which always operate separately, and which can themselves split into six-Marine teams).

Or maybe they tried it, found it not worth the trouble (or that attention fell on them anyway), and so their extra numbers "today" are entirely in the reserve and Scout companies (where extra squads are easily stood up). --Not LongPoster Again (talk) 05:49, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Why even keep it in with any kind of semblance at all? Why not just wipe any trace of that and leave it be with more normal organization? I don't see a reason why you should also be putting it down as the KI having 3000+ Marines, other than to make them mary-sueish. In my own rebooting of them, I brought it down to 500, and explained that they had suffered great casualties with entire battles against the Black Templars(And also explaining that Zakis Randi actually Disbanded the vanguard veterans in his chapter, after finding that they didn't work well at all with his chapter's generally fighting style. They needed to stay sneaky and keep at a distance with their enemies, while the black templars kicked their shit in every time they got into melee. Evilexecutive (talk) 04:12, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

There's been a lot of work done trying to clean them up, to say the least- I'm leaving a link to the last attempt on your talk page now. There's some things it doesn't mention on the page though, such as how the Inquisition decided to deal with them as a compromise between the factions. Essentially, they've been marked for death, but the Inquisition decided to make their deaths useful by employing them on crusades and battles where a high casualty rate is already expected. (To clarify on what Evilexecutive referred to, /tg/'s verdict is that the only way they would accept the KI is if the story ended up with the entire chapter being wiped out and their name being erased from all Imperial records. I think we can safely say that /tg/ isn't going to like the end result no matter what happens at this point, so I should warn you that if you want to let people outside of 1d4chan know what you're trying to do, you should do so at your own risk. Seriously, it would be hard to become any more butthurt than some of the reactions we encountered back then. --Newerfag (talk) 02:23, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I get that /tg/'s tastes sort of turned against the Knights over time. (So have mine, at least on some points -- which is why I'm revising stuff.) Some of the changes would (I think) address some of the criticisms I've seen (and I've not kept enough of an eye on /tg/ to see if the pendulum has swung back to the point that it would be received well), but I'm making them to ease my leftover concerns more than anything else. --Not LongPoster Again (talk) 05:49, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Codex Overhaul Version 4.0

Ended up running out of version numbers for 3.0, starting over again with some more major rules changes and price adjustments

• Indomitable Spirit lost its pseduo-Stubborn, retaining only the 25% casualties clause and adamantium will
• Suppression Tactics has been slimmed down, with the special attacks entirely removed. Having played several games with that version, the special attacks rarely came into play and it mainly bloated the rule. Kept the core of Pinning when within cover and +1BS against Pinning-immune targets as the balancer. Added bonus to Snap Firing when going to ground to represent their totally not cowardly nature of taking cover and firing from cover. This will provide a small but active bonus compared to having to remember to use special attacks. Nope, took the second part out as well and made it as concise as possible.
• Tactical Fire-teams, after a bunch of debate and also playing many games using various iterations of this rule, I feel like the four man teams essentially do very little. In addition to this, as I have been PDF'ing the codex, I've been writing down the main squad entries as demi-squads, to represent them being up to HALF of the mandated 24-man squads in the Knights Inductor's companies. Overall, this change to split fire/super split-fire will grant almost equal shooting flexibility while allowing a squad to remain as a bigger and more durable unit. This is the first time that the combat squads equivalent has been removed, and since this provides a bigger shooting advantage I have increased the price of the mainline units accordingly (HQ's and smaller elite units are unaffected). You may think that this means that unit slots will be more inflexible, and unrepresentative of the flexibility of the Knights Inductor, but as I said, what you're taking are essentially fire-teams of a bigger unit that has already been split. In addition to this I believe that the KI should be represented with amazing fire discipline, though I may eventually remove the super split fire part if it proves to be too powerful.
  • I like the decisions it forces (which units "mark" and which units "consume" the marks), and will probably be leaving this in for good. Points increases will probably be inevitable though.
• I reduced the number of starting Experimental Wargear slots to one, similar to Relics of the Armoury. Innovatus Decree still gives the same +2 slots, but I have removed the rule from Techmarine gunners in the Mobilius Artillery unit.
• In light of the price increases, and the fact that the KI marines are already weaker than regular marines to begin with, I have lowered the difficulty of the Attrition Objective to simply having to hold it by the end of the game. In return, I also removed the associated benefits and buffs of moving towards the objective and holding it during the game. removed the Attrition Objective entirely
• Seeing as the Honor Guard were literally Silencer Minoris with a special rule, I have made it into an upgrade for the Silencer Minoris unit and added a new unit in its place: wannabe Ferrus squad.

Another Thing

I am currently aiming to move this codex slightly towards the original Reasonable Marines fluff, which stated that even in intense combat the Reasonable Marines tended to use sub-lethal violence to subdue the enemy. As such I'm currently moving around wargear or taking out certain options entirely to portray this a little more effectively. Remoon101 (talk) 22:35, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

PDFication

OK, this codex was there for quite a long time, it was playtested and polished, thetn playtested once more, almost all wording mistakes were washed out and from my point of wiev it's time to put it together in a nice compact and easy to read pdf print. So maybe instead of reworking you guys just finalize this codex? Mezmerro (talk) 19:28, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

I'm not totally adverse to reversing the more drastic I changes I made. I wanted to add more tactical elements to the Chapter but that would necessitate gutting the major null mechanic to make room for it. I definitely did have a lot of fun with the null mechanic in of itself though. If any others chime in wanting to keep the codex (pre-overhaul 3) as is I'll undo the major changes (keeping the minor balancing changes such as some of the tweaks to wargear). Remoon101 (talk) 21:35, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

As an addendum, we're still going to have to do some re-balancing of points-cost, especially when it comes to the re-done pricing for the squad issue wargear with the reduction of maximum allowed squad sizes. I am planning on getting back into Vassal and start running some more playtests if possible once all of the relevant changes are done. Remoon101 (talk) 18:19, 8 February 2016 (UTC) Another addendum, this shit isn't going to be fully pdf'd for a while until some major rebalancing happens. Remoon101 (talk) 03:33, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

As of now, I am currently satisfied with the codex's current balance (at both intended power levels) as well as the current state of how it plays with the finalized army special rules and wargear. PDFication is currently underway Remoon101 (talk) 23:36, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

PDF is making slow but steady progress, however I am considering changing the PDF format to be closer to the wiki setup, which would be most similar to 7th edition codicies. Currently I'm modeling off of 6th edition in the same way that the template I'm using (Thousand Sons Codex) is modeled. Remoon101 (talk) 16:56, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Playtest Update

I haven't written up any full battle reports yet, just carnage reports. So far, I'm 0-3 with the Knights (formation-less CAD only).

Lost against Dark Eldar using a Silencer/Paladin heavy list (lost handily), against Chaos Space Marines with an Experimental Tank mech list (close one), and against a Grav-heavy Space Marines Raptor list using a Rachnus Deathstar with support (slaughtered).

I'd place their strength from these experiences as below competitive when not using formations. Possibly will redact the price increase I put across the board to most of the units (tacs, scouts, suppressors, incurions, etc.). The current army-wide special rules are at a very nice place, providing an identity while not being over-powering at all. There are a bunch of angles on which to build a Knights Inductor army (mech, experimental mech, silencer-heavy, etc.). The higher price was a knee-jerk reaction to a particularly obnoxious player's voice, but after consulting with playtesters as well as onlookers the balance is actually at a good place, with some aspects actually being under-powered. Remoon101 (talk) 21:28, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

Lost again using General Response Formation and including several Experimental Vehicle Weapon tanks along with the Landraider Athena against AdMech. Remoon101 (talk) 20:37, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

Suggestions for fluff overhauling

First, make their Primarch unknown and remove all references to Rachneus Rageous. Nothing screams "special snowflake Marines" like having an OC Primarch, and the Desert Fangs have been long since forgotten by /tg/ so there's no point to the reference.

Second, instead of saying all of them but the Librarians are nulls to some degree explain that they recruit nulls specifically to act as silencers as a way of using them- like the Imperium does with Culexus Assassins. Part of me wants to suggest either making the Silencers identical to Librarians (fluff them so it's essentially a more refined version of DTW as a discipline) or decide whether or not they should have Librarians at all. They're already watered-down psykers with slightly different rules as it is, so why even bother making them separate? It's stuff like that which gave them their reputation, and so far I have yet to see you try and do anything to change said reputation.

Third, I've noticed that this whole codex doesn't seem to acknowledge any of the rewritten fluff. I know you've said the fluff is supposed to support the crunch, but it can't do that when the crunch only sometimes acknowledges that said fluff exists. At the bare minimum, you should remove all references to the Null Knights- they don't exist, remember?--Newerfag (talk) 19:03, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

I've never actually understood the whole hate for them having a general antagonist in the form of Necrons, or the hate for the idea that a certain Necron Lord took to capturing members of the KI in order to turn them against experimental weapons. Though I'm not the one that writes anything for that aspect of the fluff, seeing as Remmy didn't take well to any of my ideas regarding the subject. I would have had the Null Knights as being like a sort of 'calling' that all silencers experienced, where they would feel an urge to go visit the dead worlds outside of the astronomican's light. Which are naturally filled with many eldritch horrors such as Xenos Unknown, and fully active Tomb Worlds. Evil Executive, CEO of Evil Incorporated (talk) 00:36, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Then I would have portrayed them as a threat that cannot easily be dealt with by a space marine chapter, except AFTER they reveal themselves. Like, imagine a silent antagonist working in the background, om-nomming the souls of anyone they don't like in secret, and passing themselves off as a legitimate member of the chapter. Then after they've caused enough chaos, they reveal themselves by setting off numerous contingencies in a cuban pete style. It would be like, "Oh heroes, you have discovered me! It is a shame that you couldn't let me go, now I'm going to take many of your precious civilians with me.." And then the null knight presses a button, and about a dozen nukes go off on the surface of the nearby planet, crippling absolutely everything while some kind of big boss battle commences. He may or may not escape, but his job would then be done. Evil Executive, CEO of Evil Incorporated (talk) 00:36, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

You could easily say my inspiration for that is the Traitor Cuban Pete from Space Station 13. Just some random asshole that shows up on a server and completes a shit-ton of secret objectives, before he goes around placing huge bombs in secret locations. Then he just waits until he's discovered, at which point he delivers his trigger word over the radio for the bombs. "I AM THE CUBAN PETE, WHEN I MAKE THE MARAMBAS, THEY GO CHICK CHIKKY, CHICK CHIKKY BOOM", and then on the final "boom", the bombs all go off.Evil Executive, CEO of Evil Incorporated (talk) 00:43, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Why did you make three different responses to this- wouldn't it have been easier to merge them all together? Well, no matter. It's in part because it reminds people how "special" they are by making an entirely new version of something that already existed (the Pariah) that apparently only the KI can be made into, and the Calling idea is (intentionally or not) a direct ripoff of the concept of the same type from Dragon Age right down to the name. And if KI are subject to it, then why hasn't the entirety of the Culexus Temple met the same fate yet? They have the same powers and blank-ness to a far more exaggerated degree so logically they should have been the prime subjects of such an effort. In fact, they have been the subjects if the Necron codex's mention of Szeras taking interest in them is correct.Overly complicated traps and contingencies like what you describe sound more like something a Tzeentchian cult would pull off, not a Necron Lord who would have no real reason to see them as anything other than just another Space Marine chapter. Tzeentch would also have more reason to try such a convoluted scheme in the first place given how much he hates blanks and the like (it was mentioned in one of the Black Crusade splatbooks, IIRC). And again, having someone like a Necron Lord so fixated on them that he'd go out of his way to come up with shit like that just to make a few not-Pariahs for himself reeks of them being far more important than an obscure, borderline-heretical Space Marine chapter located in the ass end of nowhere has a right to be. (And as a SS13 player myself, the Cuban Pete analogy is flawed- he bombed whether or not he was even an antagonist, and paid minimal if any attention to his objectives when he was one. At least, that's what I've heard from those who were there when he played.)

So, it's completely unprecedented that a strategically thinking opponent could capitalize on a unit that can infiltrate enemy ranks and sow chaos? Is it also unprecedented that this is a valid military strategy that's been used time and time again in the course of history? Sun Tzu himself has talked about a sort of harassment war, for doing things like sneaking around and burning shit down, or stealing armies flags to damage their morale. Say a Necron Lord living in the Dead Stars decides he likes the Aprior System for whatever inane reason, and the Knights Inductor have something(Read, a decent number of psychic nulls) that one of his Crypteks' say they can exploit for him? He doesn't even need to have a personal grudge, because Aprior has a decent amount of strategic value(Being the host to several Gravity Pauses, and is in proximity to the Dead Stars, Tau Empire, Craftworld Llyanden, and one of the Black Templars Ship Monasteries). He could plop down a few monoliths and gauss pylon covered shit in Lagrange 3 of one of Aprior's planets, and get to stare down the Gravity Pauses with a shit-ton of anti-ship weaponry. That's a whole easily fortify able region of space that he could expand his burgeoning spooky space skeleton empire into.

You don't need to be a Tzeenchian cultist to be a threat like that. Anyone could do shit like this to a chapter. In fact, every chapter needs their own personal antagonists that they regularly struggle against. The Space yiffs have their Thousand Sons, Ultramarines have space-bug gargamel, and the Blood Angels also similarly have the bug personification of every twilight argument. This is Warhammer, you need to have someone to fight against. In this case the Knights Inductor have to deal with the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Black Templars, and the Inquisition as their Threat Without. And the Necrons get to pose as the Threat Within.Evil Executive, CEO of Evil Incorporated (talk) 23:25, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Way to completely miss the point. None of the talk about giving the KI a personal rival means that the Necrons have to create a special snowflake unit out of them. And you still haven't explained that if these null knights are a thing which is somehow separate from the Pariahs which have always been in the fluff, why haven't they been made from Culexuses or stronger blanks than the KI?

Besides, nowhere in any of the Necron fluff have they ever shown the slightest inclination to those tactics or even a unit capable of using them. Hell, your own argumemt basically says that he could just do a classic invasion plan instead of messing around trying to "cause chaos". The closest thing to that is using Deathmarks, and they sure as shit don't use disguises or mind control nonsense.

The whole point of the rewrite is to dump all the elements of the old KI, and the Null Knights are one of those elements whether you like it or not. As is the whole "they're almost all blanks" thing in the first place. Is it that hard to drop this blatantly counterproductive fluff in favor of something that might actually be received positively by someone other than yourself? Perhaps I should rewrite the fluff more aggressively, seeing as I am apparently the only person willing to completely wipe out the traces of the old KI here.--Newerfag (talk) 00:27, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

But in any case, that's only one symptom of a greater problem. As I mentioned as well, there's no need to treat Silencers as something other than Librarians. You can easily refluff them to say that they're a modified Psyker (of a sort) that has focused his abilities on denying enemy powers than using his own. At the very least, I hope I can make it clear that even if the fluff is unchanged, they should have identical mechanics as opposed to generating a completely independent set of not-Warp Charges with no apparent Perils-equivalent, thus encouraging players to roll as many not-WC dice as possible per power with impunity. Were it not for the fact that they have only one discipline's worth of powers available, they'd be utterly broken. Similarly, the walker LOWs seem to be massively OP given their cost and ostensible role as Knight-equivalents even given their minimum point restriction, and the Predator Avalon has defenses not normally seen even on Baneblades along with a Strength D cannon that isn't nearly as limited as the Shadowsword's Volcano Cannon. (The whole bit with its backstory involving not-Fire Prism weaponry and a machine spirit which ought to have led even their few Admech allies turn on them instantly is also a glaring issue, but that's another story.) And one last issue is the wargear- specifically, there seems to be too much of it. I can't remember any other army having nearly as much wargear with as many special rules as the KI, and the loophole about the Omnissiah's Bounty allowing a unit with that rule to take as many pieces of experimental wargear as they please without it counting against the limit does not help one bit.--Newerfag (talk) 16:16, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

I might've mentioned it in the past but the Lords of War section has barely been touched until just recently, so there is no real balance to speak of in the section, particularly regarding the Maxima Marauder(s) and Predator Avalon. Both of which I think have had little to none testing as well (I'm planning on doing so in the near future). Based on past and current complaints on them I've been starting to apply hot fixes and points changes to suit. While I did say that PDFication was underway, I should've noted that the LOW section was still largely untested in terms of the vehicles there. Remoon101 (talk) 05:52, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

So the discussion has gotten a bit complicated, so I am going to ask my question here.

Infiltration and Covert Operations Strike Team, all the units need to take either Camo Cloaks or "Tenebras Visors". I vaguely remember "Tenebras Visors" as something that granted night vision or something? Has that been changed to a LAM Unit? --66.152.117.150 03:47, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Old Playtest Data

Guess I will keep making sections. I personally have tried a small 501 point army out, and wanted to share. --Bobthe6th (talk) 00:57, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

The Playtest Data here is from games using some pretty outdated versions of the Knights Inductor Codex, so the ones that are less relevant will be moved here once enough time and changes have passed since said games.

500pts Knights Inductor vs Tau

Game Details Here:

*HQ- Xavion

• Troops- 12man Scout squad w/ Aceso, x2 Missile Launchers, x3 AAMR's (Sergeant has one)
  • This is prior to the price drop on scouts
• Troops- 9man Guard Aspirant squad

Versus Tau

• HQ- Ethereal
• Troops- 9tau Fire warriors w/ EMP grenades
• Troops- 8tau Fire warriors
• Troops- 7tau Fire warriors
• Heavy Support- Broadside w/ twin-linked high yield missile pod, twin-linked smart missile system, velocity tracker.
• Heavy Support- Hammerhead w/ Sub-munitions

Mission scouring, fairly even objective distrebution. Fairly dense terrain. Ethereal gets dust of a thousand worlds, Xavion gets armor bane. The tau roll to go first, and deploy fairly far back. Fire warriors all built up around the ethereal in his command bubble. tank and broadside off to one side behind a building. Split the scouts into fireteams, the six sniper rifles behind cover a bit back in LOS of the firewarriors but they have to move to get range. Xavion takes all 6 of the upgraded weapon scouts off to one side with sight of the tank. Preemptive strike, the tank takes 3 penetrating hits and goes down.

First turn: Firewarriors move up a bit, ethereal declaring stubborn. 20 pulse rifles end the exposed sniper rifle scouts. The broadside moves to better cover, and uses his smart missile system to fail to kill a scout under Xavion.

Xavion's squad stays were they are, and shoots at the ethereal's squad. They kill the ethereal with some nice precision shots, and get 2 kills with some frag missiles. Ethereals former squad gets pinned.

Second turn: Fire warriors now missing leadership move around and get some shots off with their pulse rifles. The broadside joins in with his missile system. Together they kill two scouts.

Guards drop interposed between Xavion and the fire warriors, and everyone opens up. A few fire warriors go down, but nothing really worth mentioning.

Third turn: Fire warriors pick off a couple guards, and the broadside is ineffective.

Guards start making their way around to the broadside, but it is going to take a bit. They dropped in front of a building, and the building and wrecked hammerhead make a kinda L shape facing away from them. The broadside is inside the L.

Xavion's squad opens up again, and takes down a few more fire warriors, 9 has now lost 3, 8 has lost none, and 7 has lost 3. They move a bit to break most of the firewarriors line of sight.

Fourth turn: The 8 squad makes a break for an objective in the center of the map. they and the remaining 4 firewarriors of 7 fail to kill a scout. The broadside gets a guard.

Xavion's squad moves forward and ends the 8 squad. The guards keep running around the tank.

Fifth turn: Remaining FW squads sit on objectives and fail to kill Xavion, who is now at the front of the squad. Broadside moves a bit and kills a guard.

Guard run around the broadside and grab the objective it was sitting on. Xavion's squad fails to kill a single FW.

Roll a 6, so another round. if had ended then, it would be a tie Slay the warlord, bonus point for killing the ethereal, linebreaker, firstblood, and a 1 point objective. Versus a 2 point objective and a 3 point objective.

6th turn: Broadside annihilates the remaining guards. FW fail to do anything but exist.

Xavion's squad moves forward and kills the squad on the 2 point objective, and the game ends. Still a tie, 3VP all around.

Noticed facts:Xavion is a solid character. Mandate is a fun gun and he kills shit dead.

Scouts are really nice, like really really nice. FNP is useful, but not to much. Saved a couple scouts. Guards are "cheap" and seem to be mostly good against Geq, and the tau didn't bring crisis suits. Preemptive strike leads to building alpha strike units, but it was mostly getting free armor bane that let the squad drop a tank in one shot. --Bobthe6th (talk) 00:57, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

I decided to do a bit of formatting to make everything just a bit clearer but I really liked how it was pretty detailed, explaining the carnage going on. Also, thanks a lot for play-testing them, I really appreciate it! I have some questions for you regarding their performance:

• Beside the combination of Infiltrate + AAMR's + Tank hunters, do you feel that Preemptive Strike is relatively balanced for its cost (currently 10pts extra for Captain)? I feel like it could maybe do with a small points increase if it's a bit too strong. I feel like it's ok as is in the Interceptor sort of way.
• I'm assuming that being able to move and use sniper rifles/heavy weapons with Trooper armor was nice, do you think that this is too strong for their current points cost, despite being Slow and Purposeful? It seemed like the Guard Aspirants had a hard time getting to places without being able to Run, so I think overall Slow and Purposeful balances itself out well to a degree here.
• I feel like AAMR's are really strong due to being able to kill most things short of high T and 2+ armor saves, in that if you roll a precision shot, you're almost guaranteed to kill a mook as opposed to with a sniper rifle which probably needs a failed save or a lucky rend to be able to threaten the targeted model. How did you feel about their performance for being a +7pt upgrade?

All in all this is only one game, so I won't bank too much on the results (which seemed pretty fair, being a tie) and I plan on play testing myself if I can use Vassal40k to link up with more players besides my local GW (which is stingy on homebrew stuff as is their policy). Remoon101 (talk) 01:58, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Preemptive strike was solid. You will definetly get back 10 points if you are able to set up a shot. Then again the oponent knows that, so might set it up so you can't take the shot. Like breaking LOS. In a urban fight it would be nearly worthless except for the free run... which scouts can't use. Then again, this match it snaged a 136 point model when I built around it.

It is an ability that screams to be built around, though at the same time you get set up in an awkward spot if the shots miss. It felt fair, but mostly the armor bane made it silly.

I honestly forgot Guard were S&P... which isn't really of any benefit for them, actually a massive determent. They mostly got stuck when I realized their guns were 18"... and dropped them assuming 24" Really should have dropped them on a home objective to get the last couple points with no opposition. They sort of became the extra troop choice to fill out the required troop choices, while the scouts got all the bells and whistles. Moving the heavy weapons was nice, though I suspect lacking overwatch and rapid fire would be more of a problem against a more melee focused force. Tau have their gun lines, and generally outrange everyone. Sniper rifles stole that, then and the FW had a hard time lining up a shot.

AAMRs are strong, but suffer from the BS3 base. Also cover can take away the AP advantage. The Tau only took one cover free hit, so the upgrade didn't really matter. This test was using the S6 AP4, against Sv4+ or 2+. So the only bonus was killing tau with no save... which is kinda ok. Before it was the god of killing Geqs, now it is solid for killing Meqs. but 7 points? worth but not OP.

On that subject, Mandate is a very, very nice gun. Oh so very nice. Most of the time it hit and rended. It ended the ethereal.

I played poorly, but was feeling out the codex. I missunderstood a couple things, and used a few things that changed sense. So yeah, read with a pinch of salt. Also, this game was played out over VASSAL, which is were I mostly play.--Bobthe6th (talk) 02:46, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Playtest Data: 1000pts Knights Inductor versus their sworn enemy, Chaos Daemons

Game Details Here:

*HQ- Master of Ordnance, Garven Brias w/ extra Orbital Bombardment

• Troops- 6man Suppressor Squad w/ x3 Missile Launchers
• Troops- 24man Tactical Squad w/ Aceso, Marksense, Flash bolts and x8 Mk40 Plasma guns
• Troops- 6man Guard Aspirant squad w/ Aceso, Meltagun, Multi-melta, Meltabombs

Versus Daemons

• HQ- Kairos Fateweaver
• HQ- Bloodthirster
• Troops- 11 Pink Horrors w/ Icon
• Troops- 11 Pink Horrors w/ Icon
• Heavy Support- Nurgle Prince w/ Warp-Forged Armor, Psyker (Lvl 2)

Mission Big Guns, deployment vanguard Strike (KI top right), 1 objective in middle of each deployment zone, two more towards the left and middle (near Chaos deployment) Fairly dense terrain. Fate has Lord of Unreality, Garven has a useless trait. The Knights roll to go first, and deploy far too back in the corner in ruins (putting Suppressors out of range), the 24man squad is split into 2 12man w/ even amounts of plasma guns. Horrors are gathered around the left and bottom left corner objectives, Nurgle prince to the left as well. Chaos Daemons fail to seize the Knight's purse, I mean, initiative

First turn: Realizing I had to move forward, the suppressors and half of the tact squad w/o Garven/Sergeant moves up slowly through the terrain. Garven lays down a pie plate vaporizing 4 horrors, D3 wounds fail to kill. Suppressors and Tact squad runs.

The Nurgle Prince and Horros shift up a little. In the Psychic phase, the Horrors fail to get off Incursion and I deny Cursed Earth.

Second turn: Aspirant squad drops in front of the bottom left horrors holding on to their home objective. Tact squad and suppressors move up, with tact team finally taking the middle objective. The 2nd Orbital Bombardment nicks a wound off of the Daemon Prince of Nurgle, whilst the Aspirants open up and down all but two Horrors are killed.

The Bloodthirster drops in at the left, and left Horrors/NDaemonP move up. The bottom Horrors perils losing one but manages to spawn 3 Bloodcrushers.

Third turn: I get my Tacts back at home to move forward whilst the forward tacs maintain their position. I shift the suppressors so they hold the home objective instead while avoiding moving the heavy weapons. Aspirants move to get into rapid fire range of the Bloodcrushers. Fire from the Missiles and forward tact squad wipe out the Nurgle Daemon Prince. Aspirants open up and instakill one Blood crusher, and bringing the other two 1/3 wounds.

Kairos Fateweaver drops in. Bloodthirster Swoops forward right in front of the middle tacticals. Bloodcrushers move up for the kill. Two summoning powers fail and the rest is denied. BT misses Lash. Bloodcrushers kill all but the Sergeant and 1 Aspirant, and lost the 1/3 wound Blooodcrusher.

Fourth turn: Garven's tact squad moves up. Fire from both tacts and the Suppressor take off two wounds off of the Swooping Bloodthirster. Combat with the Aspirants sees the last Aspirant slain and the Sergeant holding on.

Kairos keeps swooping, while the Bloodthirster Glides. Lash kills a plasma gunner. Cursed Earth from Fate goes off. However we forgot to roll for Warp Storms and he rolls a 1,1 (representing the calming Warp). Final Horror at bot dies, the Bloodcrusher dies, two more Horrors from the other squad dies.

Fifth turn: Lone sergeant takes the enemy's home objective, while Garven's squad shuffles itself to present bolter fodder. Combined fire sees the Bloodthirster dead. The Daemon player forgot he couldn't charge after switching Flight modes.

Fateweaver manages to get a summoning off (not getting hurt by perils) and summons Bloodletters near the suppressors and Garven's tact squad.

6th turn: Suppressors move away and Garven's squad moves closer. A torrent of fire sees the Bloodletters wiped out. Fate could only swoop around and we call game.

Knights Inductor: 1 First Blood, 1 Linebreaker, 1 Heavy Support and 3 Objectives made for 12 VP's. Chaos Daemons only had 1 Objective for 3 VP. Thematic victory with Knights only losing almost all of the Aspirants and 2 Tactical Knights.

Noticed facts: Garven with his new Tac Sense is a solid supporting HQ, and taking the second Orbital seems to be worth it. As long as he doesn't get into any ranged fights he can keep augmenting whatever squad he's in nicely. Plasma guns are nice to not have overheat and are still versatile to a degree. The Suppressors also did nicely with their Tac-Sense and Missile Launchers, plinking a few wounds off here and there. The Null Charges worked well, though I forgot to roll for Garven's charges and just left it at that. The 5+ deny did come in handy a few times. The real meat was The Unseen however, with the D3 Wounds against Daemons being pretty helpful.

My opponent didn't have the best of lists arguably, and made a few crucial mistakes (not getting his Bloodthirster into CC), but that was also against a very raw (put together on the spot) Knights Inductor list (you can tell by how I took Flash bolts instead of something useful).-- Remoon101 (talk) 00:53, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

I saw the change to Tactical Autosenses, and I approve of them. As for tactics, I wouldn't recommend Acesos on anything smaller than 12-man squads. With a 6-man team, you're looking at 4.2 points an upgrade per model. That number goes down considerably as the squad size goes up. 24-man Tactical Squads with an Aceso are DEAD-HARD, especially if not being split.

Against Demons, I note that you have a fun choice with the 24-man team, in that you can split it to 12-mans and lose the aceso on 12 guys, while gaining another null charge. From my experience, larger games can be center-fielded with a 24-man aceso tactical squad, which never ever ever goes away. You can make them even more Dead'ard by splurging 185 more points on slapping Gajet into the team. 714 points total on a squad that's pretty much sticking around until turn 6. March them up the center of the table and watch your opponent shoot his entire army at them constantly, while you plink away at other things with more killy models like the new Sniper-Venerables and Vaeris tanks. -Evilexecutive

The change to Tac-Sense was actually just bringing it back to it's original incarnation in terms of function, while keeping the tidy wording. It's also better in many ways than BS6 due to how Snap Shots work as well. As for the whole list building I built it pretty hastily (quickly scrolling up and down the Codex page for the correct options including) so it definitely wasn't as optimized as it could have been. I was also going to have the 24man stay together for the Aceso benefit but I realized I was gimping myself out of an extra Null Charge so I made the decision then to split up.

One thing that it made me realize was that the current pricing per Knight as it stands is actually pretty fair, especially against Fearless enemies who have to take that extra D3 in wounds. The Null Charges is also really handy for strong, passive psychic defense even when you don't have a Silencer or Librarian on the field. While I'd still like to make Knights just a teensy bit cheaper in the future to (by 1pt if possible) to allow for greater wargear options, the current incarnation is pretty solid. Remoon101 (talk) 02:42, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Quick question: Were you just using the full rules for the General Response Force? 'Cause that couldn't have been a full Pacification Detachment without an Auxilia. And if you were using the General Response Force, how did it go? Did it seem balanced? - Mirmidion43

For this game I used Combined Arms Detachment, so nothing fancy Remoon101 (talk) 00:06, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Playtest Data: 1000pts Knights Inductor versus Imperial Fists

Game Details Here:

Pacification Detachment: Infiltration and Cover Operations Strike Team Base Formation

• HQ- Captain Xavion
• x2 Troops- 12man Scouts w/ Silent-hand Aspirant upgrade, camo cloaks, bolters, electro-shackles, kraken bolts (free) and x2 AAMR's
• Troops- 12man Guard Aspirant squad w/ camo cloaks, flash bolts for sergeant, Mark-sense (free)
• Elites- 6man Sternguard w/ Silent-hand upgrade, camo cloaks, kraken bolts (free)

Auxilia Formation: Close Air Support and Combat Drop Wing

• Fast Attack- x1 Valkyrie Avenger Squadron w/ Refractive Shield Plating

Versus Imperial Fists

• HQ- Chapter Master w/ Primarch's wrath, terminator armor, lightning claw and storm shield
• HQ- 5man Honor Guard w/ x1 PA, x1 PM, x2 relic blades, PA on Champion and drop pod
• Troops- 10man Tactical squad w/ melta gun, melta bombs, lascannon, rhino w/ dozer blade and hunter-killer missile
• Troops- 5man Tactical squad w/ flamer, rhino w/ dozer blade and hunter-killer missile
• Heavy Support- Predator
• Heavy Support- Thunderfire Cannon

Mission Crusade, deployment Dawn of War (KI top), 5 objectives, on in each corner (in ruins or cover) and 1 in the middle (in area cover). Terran in the four corners and middle where objectives were. Chapter Master gets Move Through Cover, Xavion nominates the Guard squad and the bottom left ruin piece for Right Behind You. The Fists roll to go first, deploying the TFC/Predator/5man combat squad w/ melta gun and rhino on the bottom right in cover. Lascannon combat squad, and 10man tactical squad in rhino on the opposite corner. Xavion and the silent-hands set up on the top right obj in range of the bottom right IF's, and a Silent Hand Aspirant squad infiltrates to the middle obj/cover. Knights seize the initiative thanks to the Pacification Detachment. Preemptive Strike, Xavion and his squad open fire on the TFC, taking it down and out.

First turn: Valkyrie Avenger comes into play thanks once again to the auxilia formation. Middle SH Aspirants move up. Fire sees a hull point shaved from the Predator and one exposed Marine from the combat squad on the left killed (pinning passed).

Drop pod slams right next to the SH squad, disembarking to the left of them. Bottom right rhino moves up. Orbital Bombardment kills one SH Aspirant, and fire from Rhinos/DP/tacticals kills one more. Predator gets a glancing hit on the Valk but Refractive Shield Plating adsorbs the hit.

Second turn: Xavion detaches and moves away. Valk switches to Hover and aims at the CM. SH Aspirants from reserve outflank near the top right. Guard Aspirants deep strike with no scatter at the bottom left. Middle SH Aspirants move back into rapid fire range. Fire from all nearby forces wipes out the CM and his honor guard (valk didn't do anything). Guard Aspirants' krak does nothing against the Rhino.

Bottom right rhino moves up and pops smoke. Bottom left rhino releases its passengers. Devastators shift a little. Against a jinking Valkyrie a hull point is taken. Fire sees a SH Aspirant in middle killed. The 5man tact squad roasts and shoots up seven Aspirants, though they do not break.

Third turn: Upon realizing that the Guard Aspirants were armed with Hotshot Lasguns, my opponent concedes defeat.

Knights Inductor: 1 First Blood, 1 Linebreaker, 1 Warlord and 1 Objective made for 6 VP's. Imperial Fists actually had 3 objectives in their control for 9 VP (mid objective denied by Objective Secured Rhino), but conceded defeat anyways.

Noticed facts: Preemptive Strike coming in strong, with good counter positioning and the short distance thanks to Dawn of War deployment. Things were actually touch-and-go with the Honor Guard squad since aside from rending and the Valkyrie I had no AP2. Had the HG and CM landed in cover, or even positioned behind their Drop Pod they might've survived to wreak havoc. Formations were excellent stuff, and I feel on par for 7th edition codicies, though it was tough getting a decent list together (I based it off of one of Evilexecutive's lists). Discussion with my opponent led me to nerf The Unseen appropriately and adjust the Razorback's price to match the vanilla dex.

Had the game gone on I would've struggled to remove his ObSec units probably, especially with a SH Aspirant squad stranded on the edge of the table's right side. But in any case it was an interesting game showcasing the Knights' strength in "cowardly" tactics like sneaking in ruins and craters. Remoon101 (talk) 00:06, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

So how did the Flash-Sargs do? I've never run them in any battles lately, mostly because my FLGS is wary of me playing Knights Inductor at this point. I recall Mirm telling me about a few battles previously where his opponent somehow forgot that Hotshot lasguns beat power armor, and mistakenly had all of their 3+ guys sitting in the open. I've not played them yet in any of my lists, but the concept amuses me as endlessly as people who forget the rules about shooting squads in mixed cover/no cover. -Evilexecutive

Heh, I remember that. Poor Bastard didn't make that mistake from then on in. It only cost him his sternguard and by extension the game. Just a note, the change to The Unseen is actually a buff if used right: D3+2 hits with any weapon that caused damage.... liiiike that plasma gun or melta gun or AAMR? I don't think so. Might need to change it back or at least change it to something like "the weapon that caused the most hits" or something. But that leads to silliness like whole squads of BS5 AAMR's getting 5 extra free hits. Nice marine squad you had there. It's dead now. -Mirmidion43

I was the unfortunate victim in this battle, and while I realise I made some sound mistakes I'd like to suggest a change to the The Unseen rule - since we know uphand that a unit would be immune to pinning, couldn't The Unseen rule just give the KI unit with The Unseen Preferred Enemy or Shred against that unit? It would solve the problem with a single marine with scaling the benefits to the size of the squad (as it would affect existing hits and not generating extra ones). And it would be ok reason-wise, IMHO, the reroll to hit/wound representing the target unit not going to ground and, as a result, being easier to hit on the weaker spots. --Jasqes (talk) 07:32, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Playtest Data - 2000 pts Knights Inductor vs Tyranids - Mirmidion43

In continuation of the trend with the wave of battle reports, here is a game where me and a local Tyranid player ran a battle using a whole pile of proxies to test new stuff. He wanted to test the Tyrannocyte and the hyper optimisation that is possible with the Leviathan supplement and I wanted to try out the Maxima Marauder. So without further ado, 2000 pts of Knights Inductor vs Tyranids.

Game Details Here:

Knights: Pacification Detachment, Knights Inductor Mechanicus Reclaimer Force and Psychic Warfare Node

• Master of the Forge, Macharius stratagems codex, Aceso and Camo Cloak. Warlord Trait was (post reroll) disrupt reinforcements.
• Silencer, lvl 2, null axe, Camo cloak, Aceso. Rolled up Synapse Disruption and Null Banishment. Rerolled Banishment and got Shatter Mind. Default got Unleash Aura

• Bulwark Dread with heavy flamer and camo netting. Free refractive shield plating
• Bulward Dread with Camo netting. Free refractive shield plating
• Venerable Dread with Camo Netting, double twin linked autocannons and anti air marker. Free refractive shield plating
• Innovatus squad. 12 man, Camo cloaks

• Tactical Squad. 24 man, Camo cloaks, 4 plasma guns, 4 flamers

• Maxima Pattern Marauder Warsuit. Grav Bombadier and Astartes Anti Material Array. Free refractive shield plating

Tyranids: Hive Fleet Detachment

• Flying Hive Tyrant with DTLDWBLW loadout (can't be arsed writing that out). Got Onslaught and Paroxysm + Dominion.
• See above. Got Warp blast and The Horror + Dominion
• See above again (JESUS) This one was the warlord and got the one where he gets 2 VP if he kills the warlord in a challenge, even rerolling it he got it again. Got Paroxysm and Catalyst (yeah, high profile target right here) + Dominion

• 2 Mucolids
• 2 Mucolids
• 2 Mucolids
• 20 fleshborer termagants
• 20 fleshborer termagants

• Solo Lictor
• Solo Lictor
• 3 man venomthrope brood

• Carnifex with Crushing claws, adrenal glands and spine banks
• Exocrine

AAANNND!

• Tyrannocyte with Barbed Stranglers
• Tyrannocyte with Barbed Stranglers
• Tyrannocyte with Barbed Stranglers
• Tyrannocyte with Barbed Stranglers
• Tyrannocyte with Barbed Stranglers

WHAT THE HELL IS WITH THAT LIST!

Mission is Kill points. Cover is sparse on a 6x4 table with a crater in the middle and a forest on the top right and bottom left corners respectively. Dawn of War deployment. He deployed first. Put down the 3 flying Hive Tyrants, one in the middle (warlord), one on the left in the trees (Paroxysm) and one on the right (Horror). He had the bottom end of the table. I deploy with the Maxima Marauder in the centre and the bulwark dreads 6" to either side of him to create a multiple overlap cover save bubble, augmented by the camo cloaks and camo netting everywhere. Tactical squad splits into 2 squads of 12 and slots down the middle between the bulwark dreads and the Maxima Marauder. Innovatus goes at the back behind the two tac squads, split into two squads of 6 with the Silencer and MotF attached separately to each squad. Used the Macharius Codex to give the Maxima Marauder Interceptor.

I manage to seize the initiative and Night Fighting is in play.

• Turn one

With the initiative seized, I waste no time and castle up to protect the Innovatus Squad and the characters. Plan is for him to come to me and I shoot him to death at long range. Psychic Phase consists of me doing nothing - I generate 6 from the D6, 2 from the Silencer, 2 from the Tactical squad and one from the Innovatus. With 11 charges I throw 5 at Unleash Aura and get it 3 times, giving me a 12" bubble of fuck leadership. Shooting is brilliant - the Maxima Marauder nails the centre Hive Tyrant with one of the shots from the grav bombadier, he fails the 6+ cover and I get a 6 on the D table, wiping his warlord turn one. Other than that, the Ven dread fails to damage Horror and I forget that Super Heavies can split fire and don't use the AAMA.

He proceeds to get everything into the air and rockets up the board. He successfully gets off nothing in the Psychic phase with a roll of 1 on the D6 giving him 5 to my 8 (everyone came through!) and 5+ deny. Guns are out of range, so turn 1 done.

• Turn two

Now that he's flying I need the Ven dread. I stay put and in the Psychic Phase I get 4 from the D6 and 5 others from Empyrean Anathema. I manifest the 2 charge version of Synapse Disruption and then, for the kicker, get Shatter Mind on Paroxysm, the 2 charge version. He rolls an 11 and takes a wound. In shooting I drop the anti air marker on Horror and then shoot him with everything. The Maxima Marauder and the Ven Dread combined get a single wound through his Jink and armour (one of the autocannon rounds) but the Innovatus Squad combines fire and blows him clean out of the air.

The pods start arriving. Both Lictors show up, even with the -1 reserve and appear right in my face to act as teleport homers, one on the left and one on the right of the board. One squad of Mucolids shows up and deepstrikes like an inch from the Tactical squad on the right. Three of the Tyrannocytes show up, the Carnifex, and the Gaunt Squads. Which sucked for my opponent, because without the Venomthropes, the Carnifex ate the D at point blank range from interceptor and I blew him clean off the board through the 5+ cover the gaunt screen gave. Two Tyrannocytes with a Gaunt squad are now on the left of the board with a Lictor and the other gaunt squad and Tyrannocyte is currently on the right with the Mucolids and the Other Lictor. Once again, I forget that split fire is a thing for Superheavies and don't use the AAMA. Apparently, since Instinctive Behaviour Checks occur before deepstrike, none of his idiots are taking checks, despite Synapse Disruption being up. Horror flies over to give everything Synapse, using all 6 charges in the psychic phase to give himself Dominion. The gaunt walls shoot the Tactical squads and drop one Marine on the left and 2 on the right. Then the Tyrannocytes shoot the closest available target - again the Tacticals - and drop a further 3 from the right and 4 on the left (good saves). A couple scattered back on the Innovatus but the FnP saved the two that would have died (Really good saves!). Horror then proceeds to shoot at the Venerable Dreadnought and gets 4 6's to glance. And then I make 2 of the saves from 4+ Cover that the Camo netting/Maxima Marauder (or bulwark dread) combo is giving me. One of those rolls was a four, so I nearly lost my anti-air then.

• Turn 3

That turn slightly sucked, half the left Tac squad is dead along with both flamers and one plasma and the squad on the right is down one flamer and four guys. And the Venerable is on 1 HP. I move up the Maxima Marauder to the left flank and tank shock my way through his gaunts. Since Synapse Disruption is a thing, they pass the check and just move out of the ay. I guess they'd prefer to be brave in front of the freaking Jaeger. I realise that the Tyrannocytes need to go so the Bulwark dread on the left moves to support the Maxima Marauder. The Ven dread peeks out around the flank of the Maxima to see Horror and the Innovatus with the Master of the Forge and the Tactical squad moves to deal with the gaunts. In other news, the Innovatus with Silencer and tacticals on the left lock onto the gaunts and mines while the dread rockets for the Tyrannocyte. In the psychic phase I throw out Synapse Disruption (12") again. I get Shatter mind off again on 3D6 but Horror passes the check. Finally, I activate the Null Axe. The Ven dread marks Horror again and shoots him with Autocannons, dropping another wound off him. Without the main gun, the Maxima Marauder shoots up the pod with the AAMA and shaves 3 wounds off. The bulwark dread next to him BBQ's the Tyrannocyte he is targeting for 1 wound and catches 3 gaunts in the side, wiping them. I then shoot the MotF flamer into the gaunts and kill 4 more. Combined shooting from the Tacticals and Innovatus then proceeds to drop another 8. On the other side of the board, the Innovatus shoot up the Tyrannocyte they're targeting for 3 wounds and the flamer and bolters/plasmas in the tac squad drops a full 11 gaunts while the Bulwark dread fails to crisp his pod. Charges all around: Every single walker except for the Ven dread go into a separate Tyrannocyte, the Silencer and his Innovatus go into the last Tyrannocyte and the Innovatus with the MotF go into the Gaunts (who freaking passed morale again, Ld6 = OP) while the gaunts on the other side of the board ran away from casualties. Every single Tyrannocyte now dies due to instant death - the S10 walkers and the Force on the Null Axe wipes all the Drop pods. In other news, the bravest gaunts in the world finally get wiped by the MotF and his vets.

For his turn, the Tyranid guy brings in another squad of Mucolids (on the right) and the Exocrine (on the right as well, he's given up on the left), but still no Venomthropes. The Tyrant Swings around to target the Bulwark dread on the Right and the running gaunts fail to rally due to Synapse Disruption. In the Psychic Phase, he manages to get off Warp Lance and targets the Bulwark dread. I pass the 4+ cover provided by the 12" bubble from the Maxima and Camo netting on a 4. His shooting kills the Bulwark Dread targeted by the Tyrant (He got back armour) and the Exocrine mangles the remaining Tactical marines combined with his Tyrannocyte. The Mucolid Spores charge the Silencer and his Innovatus and make it, exploding to kill all but 1 Innovatus but leaving the Silencer alive (hooray 4+ invuln). The Lictor goes into the Tacticals and finishes them off. The Lictor on the left charges the Tacticals and gets murdered with Bolters on overwatch from full health.

• Turn 4

This turn was a bit faster. I swing the Maxima Marauder around to the right and bring the survivors of the left side battle with him. The silencer gets ready to deal with the new Mucolids and the Pod. In the Psychic Phase, I get lucky again. I get off Shatter Mind again on the Mucolid spores, who turn out have a Ld of 3. A roll of 13 on 3D6 later and they're gone. I trigger the Null weapon and get ready to deal with the pod. This time in shooting I remember that Super Heavies can split fire and when the Ven Dread marks Horror, I mangle him with the AAMA. Then the grav bombardier nails the Exocrine twice and I get a 5 and a 6 for the D3 rolls for wounds caused on the D table, wiping the Exocrine. The Silencer charges the last thing on the board for the bugs - the Tyrannocyte - and Instant Deaths it, his smash hail mary missed.

The game was extremely fast paced and very enjoyable. The Maxima Marauder lived up to expectations but wasn't OP for its cost. The formation worked to a T. The game should have been much closer but some bad rolling in the first few turns by the Tyranid player and some good rolling by me cost him 2 Hive Tyrants, the Carnifex and a chunk of his reserves (they never came on). The final score was 1 to 13 but should have been much tighter. Playing not Kill points would have changed things too and prevented me from castling so much for cover exchange.

Reading through the rules for it, as well as seeing this bat-rep makes me think the Anti-Air Marker could use a bit of tuning down or points increase. I've learned that there is a similar canon wargear that functions in a similar way but only grants BS2 Snap-Shots against Flyers, which seems pretty reasonable. Also the bat-rep is very well done, and I like how it's one of those iconic conflicts with Knights versus Tyranids, whom they counter to an extent with Synapse Disruption Remoon101 (talk) 20:54, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Eeeh, the setup with the Anti Air marker is such that only 3 things can take it - the Ven Dread, Vaeris and Tempest. I don't see it as particularly bullshit, as all an opponent has to do is drop the carrier and that's the end of it. And none of those platforms are particularly hard to drop with a decent gun (you saw what happened to my poor Ven in this game - those guns aren't even optimised for anti vehicle). I think this is more of an argument against the bearer, sure, but the anti air marker does seem about right in my point of view. -Mirmidion43

Playtest Data - 1850pts Knights Inductor vs Grey Knights/Inquisition - Remoon101

Game Details Here:

Pacification Detachment: Infiltration and Cover Operations Strike Team Base Formation

• HQ- Captain Xavion
• x2 Troops- 6man Scouts w/ Silent-hand Aspirant upgrade, camo cloaks, sniper rifles, mark-sense (free)
• x2 Troops- 6man Guard Aspirant squad w/ camo cloaks, meltagun, multi-melta, combi-melta, mark-sense (free)
• x2 Elites- 12man Sternguard w/ Silent-hand upgrade, camo cloaks, flash bolts (free), Aceso, (one squad has Electro-Shackles)

Auxilia Formation: Armored Support Column

• Heavy- Whirlwind w/ the Hurricane MLRS
• Heavy- Tempest

Auxilia Formation: Close Air Support and Combat Drop Wing

• Fast Attack- x2 Valkyrie Avengers Squadron w/ Refractive Shield Plating

Versus Grey Knights w/ Inquisition Allies Inquisitorial Detachment:

• Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor with Psiocculum, Psyker (ML1) & Force Sword with 2 Servoskulls: 86 Points
• Inquisitorial Retinue of 3 Acolytes with Capparace Armor & 5 Jokaero: 199 Points

Officio Assassinorium:

• Vindicare Assassin: 150 Points

Nemesis Strike Force:

• Grand Master with Spiritual Halberd: 205 Points
• Librarian ML3: 135 Points
• Terminator Squad with Nemesis Hammers: 215 Points
• Paladin Squad of 4 Paladins & an Apothecary with a Brotherhood Banner and 2 Incinerators: 340 Points
• Venerable Dreadnought: 150 Points
• Stormraven Gunship with Twin Linked Plasma Cannon: 200 Points
• Purgation Squad with 4 Psi Cannons: 170 Points

Mission Purge the Alien, deployment Dawn of War (KI top). Re-rolled Night Fighting so I wouldn't have to deal with it.

Terrain in the four corners and three area terrain across the middle. Inquisitor gets a useless anti-Psyker WL Trait, Xavion nominates a Guard squad and middle terrain piece. Knights roll to go first, but with everything infiltrating or in reserves, Grey Knights deploy their units. Inquisitor w/ Acolytes and monkeys in the bottom left ruins. Purgation and Librarian in the bottom right terrain piece hills. He wins the roll off for Infiltrators but lets me go first. 1st Silent-Hand squad w/ Xavion deploy in the middle left terrain piece staring down the Inquisitor and company. Other Silent-Hands and both Scouts deploy in the middle terrain piece due to the Vindicare taking the top right piece in the Knight's deployment zone.

Grey Knights fail to seize the initiative. Preemptive Strike, Xavion and his squad open fire on the Inquisitor's squad, killing the Acolytes and a Jokaero

First turn: Nobody moves, everybody shoots. The Vindicare is killed by the 2nd Silent-Hands. Xavion and Silent-Hands fire again, killing all but 1 Jokaero and the Inquisitor. Scouts kill a Purgator (?) and wound the Librarian.

The Paladins drop in behind Xavion's squad. Terminators drop in behind everyone in the middle. Fires sees three Silent-Hands killed and 1 Scout killed by fire from the Librarian's unit. All powers were denied, except for 4+ Invul on the Librarian's squad... except the Librarian peril'd and died as a result.

Second turn: Everything else comes in. Fire sees the Inquisitor wiped, all but one of the Purgator squad wiped, the Terminators wiped, and three of the Paladins killed. It was about this point I realized that the Sternguard probably needed a good nerfing after this battle.

Stormraven comes in and kills a single Silent-Hand from the middle terrain piece. The Paladin squad tries to do mind-trickery on Xavion who detached from his Silent-Hand squad, and goes through with perils. However Psychic Shriek doesn't manage to wound. The Paladins charge the Silent-Hand squad, losing another Paladin to a wall of Overwatch fire. Despite Blind grenades, the Grandmaster kills three Knights while the Apothecary and Silent-Hands slap each other for no damage, both not being used to up and close dirty fighting it seems. The Knights break from combat and flee.

We called game at this point because victory points aside, it was definitely unfair. I had a long feedback discussion with my opponent who is a content creator (not for tabletop but he knows his stuff), which has led me to nerf the Sternguard by a fair degree, ending their 36" Heavy 2 sniper fire shenanigans. They can now fire after moving and still rapid fire sniper fire within 15" but are more reasonable in their fire output and their price especially. One thing the opponent said was that the Knights Inductor is somewhat similar to the Legiones Astartes (30k) and we could take some pointers from that.

Another thing mentioned was that the Preemptive Strike may be a bit too strong for its points cost. I'm inclined to say that it was the Sternguard being a little ridiculous to blame for it being strong in this game but I'm keeping that in mind. We have the unique problem of being pretty shooty with precise dakka while also not suffering many of the drawbacks of most shooty armies in terms of durability, but I've already made the changes that I've felt were deserved after this game. And finally I also added each game as subsections for easier navigation Remoon101 (talk) 00:51, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Okay, well I have a suggestion for fairly nerfing Preemptive Strike, we could make it so that models using preemptive strike cant shoot turn 1, So that it essentially becomes the Infiltrate Step equivalent to Interceptor, very useful if you go second, but not if you're going first.-evilexecutive

Other problem with your list, in that Stalker Bolters can't use specialty ammo, as their statline already accounted for it.-evilexecutive

I saw the change for Preemptive Strike, and I heartily approve of it. It felt like it didn't make sense to be able fire in rapid succession if I got the first turn (since they should've been reloading). I've also made changes to allow Stalker bolters to fire alternative ammo (since there's nothing to prevent them from loading different bolts into the chamber). Remoon101 (talk) 23:28, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Playtest Data - 2000 Points: Knights Inductor vs 30k Alpha Legion - Evil Executive

Pardon me if I don't remember the armies exactly, but this was the first time I've ever done a battle against any sort of Warhammer 30k Army, no less with Knights Inductor against it. I already knew ahead of time that the guy wasn't going to be bringing any sort of Psykers, so I avoided building my army for Empyrean Anathema.

Game Details Here:

Alpha Legion, Legion Astartes 30k

- Sicaran Battle Tank, some kind of BIG DAMN CANNON(no clue)
- 10 Marines, Volkite Chargers
- 10 Marines, Bolters, Volkite Serpenta, Melta Bombs, Artificer Armor
- 10 Marines, Bolters, Volkite Serpenta, Melta Bombs, Artificer Armor
- 10 Marines, Bolters
- 6 "Terrorizers", Jump Packs, Rad-Phage Grenade Launcher, with Heavy Weapon Webbing
- Praetor with Artificer Armor, Jump pack, Melta Bombs, Dual-Volkite Serpentas
Whole army has Infiltrate

Knights Inductor Gunline; Unbound, no formations at all(it was a rushed setup, didn't want to bother with bookkeeping on a horde list)

- 3 Dreadnoughts, 2 with Asscannons, 1 with Lascannon
- Predator: Lascannon Sponsons, Autocannon
- 6 Scouts with Sniper Rifles, Camo Cloaks
- Captain Xavion
- Vindicator
- A suppressor squad with 4 Heavy Bolters
- Aegis Defense Lines

Space Marine Allies(To save points, ^_^)

- A boat load of tactical marines, all Plasma Guns/Cannons
- A devastator squad with 4 missile launchers

Turn 1 Knights go first, and have the numbers advantage oddly enough, so I choose to deploy as wide as possible in order to respond to all threats. The Alpha Legion all infiltrate as close as possible, with the "Assault Squad from Hell!" managing to infiltrate the closest, at 15" away, but they fail to seize the initiative.

I managed to destroy the Sicaran with massed Lascannon+Missile Launcher fire, but then only killed 2 marines. Thus ending my turn.

The Alpha Legion turn 1 consists of moving up, shooting.. And putting his Praetor exactly 3" away from Xavion's Squad thanks to Jump Move. He then does something that was both awesome, and terrifying. The Rad Phage Launcher killed a marine in cover, and then reduced Xavion's Squad to t3. Then his praetor activated a special ability, in which he repeatedly fires both Volkite Serpentas until they each get a 1.

The praetor ALONE causes 28 hits, of which 22 wound, which kills 8 marines, and then causes 8 more wounds through Conflagration that kill the other 2. Xavion is now completely alone behind Aegis Defense Lines. Rest of the Alpha Legion does "meh" shooting.

Turn 2

Massed Plasma Gun and Heavy Bolter fire kills the Assault Squad from Hell, while my vindicator kills all but 1 of the Volkite Marines. Two Dreads move up into position to lock down two of his tactical squads, while the third tactical squad gets into a shooting contest with my gunline. Scouts kill a tactical marine with Sniper Rending ^_^

In his turn, he kills a few marines with the last of his shooting, and declares a charge with his last Volkite marine. Volkite marine dies to Overwatch. He kills a dread to the melta bomb, but his squad locks combat with the other dread.

Turn 3

The gunline kills the last tactical squad not in melee, in addition to most of the squad that took down my dread. We resolve the melee combat, and then call the game here.

Overall, it was a pretty enjoyable battle, and was my first time ever encountering 30k. According to feedback from the guy(Love him, he's like a Bro-tier player), the Knights Codex seems to quite heavily resemble Legion Astartes. He commented that "As long as you pay enough for it, and it's not -game breaking-, it's fine to have overpowered things.', things like the Burnout Fire from the Praetor was a good example of it.

Playtest the second - Marauder Boogaloo -Mirmidion43

This was a real quick game that I played as a way of dicking around, as well as testing the only things that no-one wants to breathe on yet, the Marauders. The game was small, only 1000 points, and I literally brought 11 models. So, without further ado:

Game Details Here:

Knights Inductor: Combined Arms Detachment

• Marauder Field Master, Macharius Stratagems Codex, Aceso. Warlord, got Skilled Negotiator
• Marauder Field Master, Macharius Stratagems Codex, Aceso
• 3 Marauders, one meltagun
• 6 Marauders, 3 with double lascannon

Dark Angels: Combined Arms Detachment

• Librarian, lvl 2, Termi armour, force axe, storm bolter, melta bombs, auspex and power field generator (the 4+ invuln to the unit). Warlord, got The Hunt (murdering my warlord in a punch up is worth 2). Rolled off divination and got misfortune and the 4+ invuln one + Prescience.
• Tactical squad, plasma gun, plasma cannon, sarge was a vet with plasma pistol and power fist
• Tactical squad, melta gun, lascannon, sarge was a vet with plasma pistol and power fist
• Bike squad, 6 man, 2 plasma guns, sarge was a vet and had a fist
• Devastator squad, 4 lascannons, sarge was a vet

played on a 4x4 table. There's a ruin in each deployment zone and a crater or two in the middle. I rolled to go first, split the 6 man squad into regulars and lascannons and stuck the lascannons in my ruin, on the top of the table. Then decided whythefucknot and decided that all my remaining guys are infiltrating with the Macharius Codices. He deploys the Devastators in the ruin, a tactical squad to either side, the plasma cannon on my left with the librarian and the lascannon to the right with the bikes on the far right. The mission is just kill points. We roll to see who does advanced deploy and he wins, scouting his bikes up the right flank to get in range. I park one squad right in their face and one on the left flank 18" from his Librarian's bunker. For preemptive strike I have the squad facing the bikes shoot at them with Heavy Bolters and Flash bolts, getting lucky and dropping 2, including a plasma gun. He passes the blind check and the morale check. The squad on the left scouts up to 12" away from the librarian's bunker. Night fighting is a thing and he fails to seize.

• Turn 1

I go first and sprint my marauders on the right straight at his bikes. The squad on the left get within 6" of his Tactical squad, which by now is sweating bullets. I shoot the fire team with double lascannons at the devastators, roll appallingly to hit (getting 2) and he rolls appallingly on his 3+ cover, failing both and loosing the useless sergeant and one lascannon. He then proceeds to fail his Ld8 stubborn check and runs off the board. The squad on the left flank unloads into the Librarian, getting three 6's to hit with the Flash bolts but only killing a grunt. He then fails a blind check. On the right, I run and get four inches up.

In his turn, the bikes back off to 12" away from the incoming guys on the right and the Tactical squad on the left backs away from my Marauders. In the psychic phase, he rolls a 2, giving him 4 dice and I get 5 total from my 4+ rolls. He throws all of them at Prescience on the Tactical squad on the right, getting it with 2 and I fail to roll a single 5+ with all 5 of my dice. He unloads into my guys, the Tactical squad on the left (blind) rolling a 1 and a 6 with the plasma gun, although he doesn't die. The plasma gun wounds where the bolters don't and I take it on my Field master, who fails the FnP and Invuln. On the right, the plasma gun in the bike squad wounds the Field master once, and one bolt actually punctures his armour, but the FnP holds. The Tactical squad hits and wounds with the lascannon but I FnP it and the Twin Linked bolts fail to wound (the melta was out of range).

• Turn 2

So with both my Field Masters down a wound, I put on the pressure. The two marauder squads get into 6" range of the charge of the bikes and Librarian Bunker respectively. At this point my opponent realised he didn't have force off. Shooting from the lascannon team drops 4 tactical marines from the squad on the right, including the Sarge. They stick around though. On the left I shoot up the Librarian bunker, dropping another two goons and forcing two more blind checks, which he passes. On the right, the other marauder squad shoots up the bikes, getting ridiculously lucky with heavy bolters and wiping 3 of them in one burst, while the flash bolts miserably fail to achieve anything. I charge, the ones on the right needing a 8" charge and failing and the ones on the left needing a 7" charge and getting it. In combat I challenge with my Sarge and he accepts with his sarge. His goons go, failing to achieve anything. All the unwieldy guys now go, the Librarian failing to hurt the unit, the sarge whiffing to hit my sarge and my sarge turning him to goo, the Field Master whiffs spectacularly and his one hit bounces off the librarians power field and the squad drop another. He's stubborn and sticks, now minus the sarge and another bolter, leaving that squad at 5 guys and a libby.

He realises he's in trouble and the bike gets the fuck out of dodge, running his full 12" right near to the table edge. His tactical marines get the melta in range and then back all the others off. His psychic phase sees him getting four again and me getting four as well. He throws 3 at twin linked for the tactical squad and saves one for force, getting twin linked again AND force (I cannot roll a single 5+). His shooting sees the bike ping off the armour of my character again, the lascannon and melta gun getting another wound on my character and the bolters dropping a grand total of nothing. In combat, I challenge him again and his libby accepts the sarge. The grunts once again bonk me for nothing, in the challenge the libby fails to wound me (phew) and I manage to instant kill him through his 4+, although it still applies for the rest of the combat, where the Field master and 2 grunts drop two more. He's stubborn and sticks, though now he has only his two fancy guns and a belter left.

• Turn 3

Nothing special. I move to 6" of the tactical squad on the right and don't shoot, I want the charge. The lascannon marauders kill the bike through his jink. In combat, the guys on the right charge through overwatch, taking no damage and making it with a 10. On the left I wipe him without the 4+, taking no damage and on the right he bonks me for nothing and I wipe him, tabling him.

So, overall feeling: Marauder's should not be able to charge after shooting both guns. That was a nasty effect that severely damaged the left squad. The 3 man 6 lascannon was hilariously effective and probably needs a points up for the cost of lascannons. And the Character needs a points up, to 180 at least, maybe even basic guys to 70 or 75. Seriously, T6 2+ is very hard to damage with bolters and without proper melee like hammernators, marauders will eat most things in CC, given time, despite the shitty number of attacks. I couldn't roll a 5+ to save my life that game, not once for psychic powers and only a couple of FnP's. Overall, if I didn't have the characters, I would've taken a lot more damage. I think that something that distorted the game was his devastators running off the board turn one. They could have put some serious hurt on me (especially given how I was taking saves -_-). Aside from that, INFILTRATING MARAUDERS IS THE BEST THING EVER! Mirmidion43 (talk) 15:08, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Adorable! It's almost like they're Nurgle Bikers, if Nurgle Bikers were slow and actually capable of doing any real damage. Marauders are Relentless, Shooting and Charging is just how that works. Absolutely hilarious, and I might note that marauders are pretty much immune to Lasguns with how heavy their armor is. For the rest of it, I personally feel that not having an invuln save or Deep Strike for such a high cost is the key balancing factor. However, at T6, you need only give them an Aceso and they pretty much have a 5+ save vs. Orbital Bombardment, anything short of Force Weapons or Fleshbane. In larger games, I would wager to say a 9-man Marauder team might actually be worth it if you give them an Aceso, and all-lascannons.

My only problem with Marauders is modeling them. My closest idea would be to take Cataphracti Armor, cut the legs off and add 2mm of Plasticard to make them taller, then take the Sensor-helms off of Crisis suits and stick them where the helmet goes. Then of course try to model them as being hunched over. I personally will -never- bring one of the newer things in this codex onto the board unless I actually have it modeled for the tabletop, it just feels like cheating to have "Oh this terminator counts as a marauder", for no effort. Evilexecutive (talk) 16:42, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Don't know if you got this but Marauders are S&P. This was to nerf them a while ago... Remoon101 (talk) 22:29, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Like all the obliterator rip offs, marauders are good. being toughness 6 makes them harder then nurgal oblits, but they lose out on the 5++ invul. Lose out on the ability to have all guns for all problems, but T6 covers so many other issues.

I have to ask, why didn't you swap the flash bolters for a pair of hunter killers? unless you take a power/chain fist you are going to be firing both heavy weapons every round... because while blind is nice, killing things is better. The missiles are free and let you threaten tanks. Also they can easily make preemptive strike dumb. especially with a full 9 man stack, and tank hunter from a codex. Nice knight you had there. Shame 18-20(if you add a lord in) S8 tank hunter hit it before the game started.

Also... I feel like the death star version of a murader list would get scary fast.

[spoiler]Marauder Field Master 160 points Macharius Stratagems Codex 20 points Aceso 25 points Double Multi-Melta&2 hunter-killer missiles Free 205 points

Marauder Team 180 points six more marauders 360 points All except sarge take double multi meltas free All except sarge take 2 hunter killer missiles free Sarge takes a pair of power fists, and a flamer 30 points Sarge takes a Tac-Sense 20 points. 590 points.

a 795 point death star. I could see an argument for adding plasma cannons to taste, but I like making the cheapest form possible. Also, mixing back in some heavy bolters might make some sense... I just have a hard time beliving that the extra 12" range is worth losing the ability to threaten knights on over watch. I mean in general, the only thing this squad is fearing is Strength D and stomps. [/spoiler]--66.152.117.150 20:57, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

• Marauder Field Master, Macharius Stratagems Codex, Aceso.
• 9man Marauder squad,

Playtest Data - 1850pts Knights Inductor vs Tyranids - Remoon101

I'd say this game was one of the most enjoyable ones yet playing with the Knights Inductor! I've only been really using the Covert Infiltration base formation and all that entails so my lists usually heavily rely on Silent-Hands to get the job done. So once they got nerfed to acceptable levels this was great to play and the opponent enjoyed it as well. Despite winning, I could easily have seen the Tyranids winning if their pod placement was more heavy towards one side instead of going after my stranded Guard Aspirants...

Game Details Here:

Pacification Detachment: Infiltration and Cover Operations Strike Team Base Formation

• HQ- Captain Xavion
• x2 Troops- 6man Scouts w/ Camo cloaks, sniper rifles, Heavy bolter, mark-sense (free)
• x2 Troops- 6man Guard Aspirant squad w/ Camo cloaks, meltagun, multi-melta, combi-melta, mark-sense (free)
• x2 Elites- 12man Sternguard w/ Silent-hand upgrade, camo cloaks, Kraken bolts (free), Acesos, (one squad has Electro-Shackles)

Auxilia Formation: Armored Support Column

• Heavy- Whirlwind w/ the Hurricane MLRS
• Heavy- Tempest

Auxilia Formation: Close Air Support and Combat Drop Wing

• Fast Attack- x2 Valkyrie Avengers Squadron w/ Refractive Shield Plating on one of them

Versus Drop and Fly Nids Fortifications:

• Aegis Defense Line w/ Comms Relay

Tyranids w/ Combined Arms Detachment:

• x4 N/A- Tyrannocytes, each with x5 Deathspitters
• x2 HQ- Hive Tyrant w/ Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Wings
• Elites- Malanthrope Brood
• Elites- Zoanthrope Brood w/ Neurothrope, x2 Zoanthropes
• Troops- 30nid Devourer Termagants
• Troops- Tervigon (*30 termagants) w/ Crushing claws, electroshock grubs, stinger salvo
• x2 Heavy- Carnifex w/ Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms, Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms

Mission Purge the Alien, deployment Hammer and Anvil (KI right). No Night Fighting.

Same map as I've been using all the time: Ruin/hill terrain in the four corners and three area terrain across the middle. Hive Tyrant gets 18" Synpase (both Tyrants roll Paroxysm and The Horror for powers), Xavion nominates a Guard squad and the bottom left ruins DEEP in enemy territory Knights roll to go first, deploying the Tempest as far back and in the middle w/ clear LoS and the MLRS Whirlwind in the top right ruins in the back. One Flyrant is behind the hills in the top left out of LOS. Other Flyrant is with the Malanthrope behind the ADL and the Termagant Brood in the bottom left ruins. My Sternguard deploy in the right middle and bottom terrain pieces in range of the Malanthrope (w/ Kraken bolts giving just enough range). Scouts deploy in the top right and bottom right behind the Sternguard.

The Hive Mind chooses not to seize the Initiative. Preemptive Strike, Xavion and his squad open fire on the Malanthrope, getting one wound on the 2+ cover Malanthrope (at this point I had forgotten it was 4 wounds and not 2 wounds).

First turn: Middle right Sternguard move up. Scouts move up a bit. Fire from the Tempest sees a wound penetrating 2+ on the Flyrant (still grounded). Sternguard fail to wound the Malanthrope. A shrieking of missiles massacre the Termagants, ignoring their cover and wiping a little less than half the brood.

Both Flyrants swoop. Termagants move slowly through the ruins. Powers see one The Horror go off on the top Scouts and pinning them. However, fire sees them lose Morale (-2 Scouts) and actually break Pinning to run. Mid Silent-Hands take -3 casualties.

Second turn: Everything else comes in. Tempest and the mid Sternguard rapid firing manage to down the bottom Flyrant, granting First Blood and Slay the Warlord in one Fell Swoop. Bottom Avenger wounds the Malantrhope. Scouts (at BS3 due to Parox) manage to miraculously get 2 wounds on the top Flyrant. Top Avenger tacks another one off. Combined fire sees the Malanthrope dead and all but two Termagants are wiped out.

Flyrant continues Swooping. Termagants keep running. One risky flesh pod drops a Tervigon top right next to the Whirlwind. Carnifex flesh pod middle right next to the Tempest. One Carnifex flesh pod all the way at the left near the Guard (a strategic mistake). The Tervigon spawns a half squad and rolled a double so no more spawning. The Tempest is wrecked, another Scout killed. Sergeant and an Aspirant killed send the other Aspirants fleeing.

Third turn: The fleeing Guardies grow another set and regroup on their own (1,1). Whirlwind moves away at combat speed. Avengers position to set up their targets. Fire sees the spawned Termagants wiped. Both Carnifexes blown up by combined fire. No wounds on the Flyrant from the bottom Avenger (flying towards the top of the map). A single wound on the tervigon.

Zoanthropes come in and blast apart the Guard Aspirants along with the flesh pods. The top scouts are killed, another Silent Hand is lost from mid and the Whirlwind is wrecked by the Tervigon.

Fourth turn: One Flyer switches to Hovering behind the Flyrant. Other Zooms. Silent-Hands backpedal only 2" from the Tervigon. Fire sees wounds on the Tervigon and a flesh pod, nothing on the Flyrant.

Flyrant Swoops and manages to take out the Sergeant giving FNP and with the Electro-Shackles in Xavion's squad. The Tervigon runs but can't charge, except being a sporting player (and the tervi only had one wound) allowed my opponent player to charge. HoW kills a Silent-hand, but a single normal attack breaks through the 3+ armor to take the last wound before the Tervigon can strike back.

Fifth turn: The Hovering Flyer switches to Zooming and blasts the Flyrant out of the sky with three unsaved wounds. The Zooming Flyer switches to Hovering preparing to blow up the Tyranids on the left side. Assorted fire kills the last flesh pod on the right side, wiping out the Tyranid presence. At this point we call game.

As I said before, both and I my opponent really enjoyed this game. Had he placed more emphasis on my deployment zone with ALL of his pods and also Swooped the Flyrants onto the board in the first place, the game would've looked differently most likely. It was my first time facing Tyranid Podding, but since my main SM army (before 7E codex) was a drop pod army I positioned my guys to take a little less damage and to cover my angles. Even with the Kraken bolts, the Silent-Hands were reasonable. I did my best to get the most out of my weapons. His higher wound creatures suffered from the fact that I had snipers everywhere and the TL Lascannons and his horde creatures were wiped out by the time he wrecked my Whirlwind. Remoon101 (talk) 17:24, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

500pts Knights Inductor vs Solar Auxiliary, Remoon101 and EvilExecutive

Game Details Here:

*HQ- Xavion

Solar Auxiliary Legate Commander: Volkite Serpenta, Paragon Blade, Iron Halo 3 Lasrifle Sections, Barebones 1 Veletaris Section, Rotor Cannons.

Knights Inductor

• HQ- Techmarine w/ Camo cloak, Frag grenades, GAC 82pts
• Troops- 6man Guard Aspirant squad w/ Melta, Multi-melta 84pts
• Troops- 6man Guard Aspirant squad w/ Melta, Multi-melta 84pts
• Elites- Armored Ghost 250pts

Turn 1 Knights Deploy First, setting a Techmarine into cover just 40" away from all of my Lasrifle Sections. I deploy one Lasrifle Section in 4+ ruins with good sightlines of my entire deployment zone. My second Lasrifle Section goes up on an Aquila shaped cropping of rocks. Third Lasrifle Section goes up in the center, ready to move into the center ruins to threaten the Techmarine. My Legate deploys with his Veletaris next to the Lasrifle section in the Aquila rocks.

I manage to Seize from Remy, and suddenly realize all of my guys are out of range for Collimators, so I move up the one section and run it the rest of the distance into the ruins. There goes my turn, as I don't want to waste time snap-shooting heavy weapons when I can get all squads in cover.

Remmy's Techmarine fires his GAC into the Veletaris, killing 1 guy, here I realize all my guys are placed too close to each other.

Turn 2 Massed fire from Collimators brings 40 shots into the techmarine, shaving off a wound with shit rolls. Other than that, nothing happens as I wait for him to deep strike.

Armored Ghost then reveals his RIGHT BEHIND YOU note, and deep strikes with no scatter 1" away from my Lasrifle Sections. Aside from that, he deep strikes in one guard aspirant squad, which kills 3 riflemen.

Ghost fires pretty much EVERYTHING. And solo-kills the entirety of my lasrifle section, and half the Veletaris.

Turn 3 Massed fire from Section 2 brings down a guard aspirant squad. I realize here that I really should have brought Volkite Chargers instead of Rotor Cannons, and now only my Legate can harm ghost. Section 1 fails their morale and retreats. Section 3 takes another 40 shots into the techmarine, but deals no wounds.

My veletaris then turn to throw some Krak Grenades into Ghost, dealing a wound, and they charge in hopes that I can kill him with a Paragon Blade. However Assault cannon Overwatch nails the Legate's buddy leaving him alone to take on Ghost. The Paragon blade fails to wound ID Ghost and Ghost's return swing with his Chainfist smashes through the Legate and his shield.

Turn 4+ Game ends on a die roll as Ghost fails to charge another Lasrifle Section and the surviving Guard Aspirants send the regrouped rear Lasrifle section packing off the board.

Overall, I feel that ghost is way the hell too powerful, and he really shouldn't have the ability to solo 30 guys on his own with what he's got. Entirely too many pie plates, entirely too many shots of arbitrary strength. -Evil Exec

In any case, Ghost's Grand Skyfall was nerfed to keep it to reasonable levels. This armaments will remain the same since almost one-half of it is one-use, once it's expended, a Marauder team of similar armament and points will do more damage than Ghost alone. Remoon101 (talk) 20:44, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Playtest Data - 1500pts Knights Inductor vs Cult Mechanicus - Remoon101

This was a really close game towards the end with some amazing moments, I believe I probably lost due to an important decision or two which caused the deaths of some important models on the field. However it's about time I lost with Knights Inductor, but it was still a damn enjoyable game that had me wondering the victor to the end!

Game Details Here:

Cult Mechanicus Army List Here which is TOO DAMN LONG

+++ Cult (1500pts) +++

++ Cult Mechanicus: Codex (2015) (Formation Detachment) (820pts) ++

+ Formation (820pts) +

• Elimination Maniple (820pts)
• ····Rules: Elimination Volley
• ····Kastelan Robot Maniple (325pts)
• ········Rules: Kastelan Battle Protocols
• ········Cybernetica Datasmith (55pts) [Conversion field (5pts)]
• ············Rules: Armourbane, Canticles of the Omnissiah (CotO), Dataspike, Feel No Pain, Haywire, *Specialist Weapon, Unwieldly
• ········Kastelan Robot (135pts) [Heavy phosphor blaster (5pts), Twin-linked heavy phosphor blaster (10pts)]
• ············Rules: Canticles of the Omnissiah (CotO), Fearless, Luminagen, Repulsor Grid
• ········Kastelan Robot (135pts) [Heavy phosphor blaster (5pts), Twin-linked heavy phosphor blaster (10pts)]
• ············Rules: Canticles of the Omnissiah (CotO), Fearless, Luminagen, Repulsor Grid
• ····Kataphron Destroyers (165pts)
• ········Rules: Canticles of the Omnissiah (CotO), Heavy Battle Servitors, Very Bulky
• ········Kataphron Destroyer (55pts) [Heavy grav-cannon, Phosphor blaster]
• ············Rules: Concussive, Graviton, Luminagen
• ········Kataphron Destroyer (55pts) [Heavy grav-cannon, Phosphor blaster]
• ············Rules: Concussive, Graviton, Luminagen
• ········Kataphron Destroyer (55pts) [Heavy grav-cannon, Phosphor blaster]
• ············Rules: Concussive, Graviton, Luminagen
• ····Kataphron Destroyers (165pts)
• ········Rules: Canticles of the Omnissiah (CotO), Heavy Battle Servitors, Very Bulky
• ········Kataphron Destroyer (55pts) [Heavy grav-cannon, Phosphor blaster]
• ············Rules: Concussive, Graviton, Luminagen
• ········Kataphron Destroyer (55pts) [Heavy grav-cannon, Phosphor blaster]
• ············Rules: Concussive, Graviton, Luminagen
• ········Kataphron Destroyer (55pts) [Heavy grav-cannon, Phosphor blaster]
• ············Rules: Concussive, Graviton, Luminagen
• ····Kataphron Destroyers (165pts)
• ········Rules: Canticles of the Omnissiah (CotO), Heavy Battle Servitors, Very Bulky
• ········Kataphron Destroyer (55pts) [Heavy grav-cannon, Phosphor blaster]
• ············Rules: Concussive, Graviton, Luminagen
• ········Kataphron Destroyer (55pts) [Heavy grav-cannon, Phosphor blaster]
• ············Rules: Concussive, Graviton, Luminagen
• ········Kataphron Destroyer (55pts) [Heavy grav-cannon, Phosphor blaster]
• ············Rules: Concussive, Graviton, Luminagen

++ Skitarii: Codex (2015) (Skitarii Maniple) (535pts) ++ + Troops (180pts) +

• Skitarii Rangers (90pts) [4x Skitarii Ranger (44pts), Transuranic arquebus (25pts)]
• ····Rules: Armourbane, Doctrina Imperatives, Feel No Pain (6+), Move Through Cover, Precision Shots, Relentless, Sniper
• ····Ranger Alpha (21pts) [Galvanic rifle]
• ········Rules: Precision Shots

• Skitarii Rangers (90pts) [4x Skitarii Ranger (44pts), Transuranic arquebus (25pts)]
• ····Rules: Armourbane, Doctrina Imperatives, Feel No Pain (6+), Move Through Cover, Precision Shots, Relentless, Sniper
• ····Ranger Alpha (21pts) [Galvanic rifle]
• ········Rules: Precision Shots

+ Heavy Support (355pts) +

• Onager Dunecrawlers (230pts)
• ····Rules: Crawler, Doctrina Imperatives, Field Harmonics
• ····Onager Dunecrawler (115pts) [Neutron Laser and Cognis Heavy Stubber (25pts)]
• ········Rules: Cognis, Concussive
• ····Onager Dunecrawler (115pts) [Neutron Laser and Cognis Heavy Stubber (25pts)]
• ········Rules: Cognis, Concussive

• Onager Dunecrawlers (125pts)
• ····Rules: Crawler, Doctrina Imperatives, Field Harmonics
• ····Onager Dunecrawler (125pts) [Icarus Array - Twin autocannon, Gatling rockets, Daedalus (35pts)]
• ········Rules: Ignores Cover, Interceptor, Skyfire, Twin-linked

++ Skitarii: Codex (2015) (Formation Detachment) (145pts) ++ + Formation (145pts) +

• Ironstrider Cavaliers (145pts)
• ····Rules: Acute Senses, Ident Confirmed, Mindlnked Hunters, Outflank, The Noose Tightens
• ····Ironstrider Ballistarii (55pts)
• ········Rules: Crusader, Doctrina Imperatives, Dunestrider, Precision Shots
• ········Ironstrider Ballistarius (55pts) [Twin-linked cognis autocannon]
• ············Rules: Cognis, Twin-linked
• ····Sydonian Dragoons (45pts)
• ········Rules: Crusader, Doctrina Imperatives, Dunestrider, Incense Cloud
• ········Sydonian Dragoon (45pts) [Radium jezzail]
• ············Rules: Rad Poisoning, Sniper
• ····Sydonian Dragoons (45pts)
• ········Rules: Crusader, Doctrina Imperatives, Dunestrider, Incense Cloud
• ········Sydonian Dragoon (45pts) [Radium jezzail]
• ············Rules: Rad Poisoning, Sniper

Knights Inductor List Here:

1499pts/1849pts Knights Inductor Reals Chaos Nullification v5 <1 Defeat>

[Pacification Detachment]

Special rules: Move Through Cover, optional re-roll Night-Fighting, Seize Initiative on 4+

Base Formation: [Chaos Nullification Task Force]

Benefits: Mandatory Warlord Trait re-roll, all units with Empyrean Anathema count as having 10 models all the time, Independent Characters and Dreadnoughts generate Null Charges on a 3+

• HQ- Silencer Alpha Rachnus Pacifus 300pts
• HQ- Command squad w/ Honor Guard upgrade, Aceso, Electro-Shackles, x2 Flash Bolt Ammo, Drop pod w/ Cerberus Launcher 201pts
• Troops- 6man Tactical squad w/ Inductor-Pattern Rhino 119pts
• Elites- 2man Knights Inductor Paladins w/ Iron Halos 120pts

Auxilia Formation: [Psychic Warfare Node]

Benefits: All Silencers and Librarians may re-roll for their powers before deployment

• HQ- Silencer w/ Secundus upgrade, Terminator Armor, Tracer Bolts, Null Axe 160pts

Auxilia Formation: [Workshop Maintenance Team]

Benefits: +1 to all Blessing of the Omnissiah results, in addition to all other available bonuses

• HQ- Techmarine w/ Camo cloaks, Gravitic Accelerator Cannon, Signature Projector, Bolster Defenses 136pts
• HQ- Techmarine w/ Gravitic Accelerator Cannon, Bolster Defenses 90pts

Auxilia Formation: [Heavy Weapons Emplacement]

Restrictions: All units except for Landspeeders can only move 3” in the movement phase

Benefits: Count as being in 5+ area terrain cover at all times, anything in LoS of the Landspeeders get -1 to cover saves, Mobilius Artillery can use Landspeeders for LoS for Barrage Weapons

• Fast Attack- Mobilius Artillery squad w/ Thunderfire Cannon 90pts
• Heavy- 6man Suppressor squad w/ x2 Heavy Flamers 104pts

Auxilia Formation: [Close Air Support and Combat Drop Wing]

Benefits: All flyer squadrons are rolled for as one when coming on from reserve, reserve rolls may start turn 1, Strafing Run

• Fast Attack- Valkyrie Avenger squadron 180pts

Initial Carnage Report (Full battle report to come)

• Mission = (3): Big Guns Never Tire (p. 144)
• Deployment = (2): Hammer and Anvil (p. 131)
• Night Fighting = (6): Night Fighting is active

Carnage Report:

• Game ended in me conceding defeat when the last of my scoring Paladins are blasted off the objective, leaving a close victory to the Cult Mechanicus
• First Blood (1), Slay the Warlord (1), Line Breaker (1), 1 Heavy Support killed (1) and 1 Objective (3) for 7 VP for Remoon101
• Slay the Warlord (1), Line Breaker (1), 1 Heavy Support killed (1), and 2 Objectives (6) for 9 VP for Jarl
• Knights Inductor Lost: 1 Honor Guard, 1 Silencer, 1 Rachnus Pacifus, 1 Mobilius Artillery w/ TFC, 2 Techmarines, 1 Suppressor squad, 1 Valkyrie Avenger, 1 KI Paladin squad
• Cult Mechanicus lost: 2 Kataphron Destroyer units, 1 Katawhat Robo MC team, 1 Datasmith, 2 Skitarii Rangers teams
• Big scary Silencer team drops down turn 1, generates 20~ Null Charges, throws 5-6 charges at each power AND... doesn't manifest anything except for a short range Unleash Aura
• One Paladin from the Deep Striking Paladin team survives a volley of Graviton shots from a Destroyer unit, helps to wipe out a Ranger team, kills a surviving Destroyer, marches over and stabs a Robot with his activated Null Halberd and even lops off the head of a Datasmith while he's at it, and gets knocked out standing on top of an objective. What a hero.
• Suppressor squad forgets to fire bolt pistols instead of boltguns and thus can't charge. As a result they get blasted by a close-range Neutron Blaster and blown off the map
• Two times the Neutron Blasters whiffed, once rolling 3 1's to wound against Rachnus' Silencer A-team, and another against the Silencer/Paladin duo. Also there was some horrific shooting rolls with 1's everywhere like twice for Jarl
• Rachnus fails to get into combat and dies to a final volley of Heavy Grav-cannon

6000 Points, Crusade Apocalypse: Knights Inductor Vs. Orks - Evilexecutive

Game Details Here:

The Game-setup was as follows:

2 Tables were placed end to end, creating a single battlefield that was 48" by 144". There were two deployment zones of exactly 48" by 48", separated by a 24" by 48" No-mans-land. Equal Terrain was placed inside the deployment zones, and then EIGHT objectives were placed. 2 in No-Mans-Land, 3 in each Deployment Zone: Objectives were worth 1 point each, without Mysterious Objectives. Kill Points were added in to the Mission.

Short results, Knights Inductor lost 8 points to 10 points.

Knights Inductor List:

WHEEEE, NO. SON OF A bITCH THIS IS TOO LONG.

• Pretty much my entire owned collection, consisting of a fuck-huge horde of Space Marines.

• Every, last, one of the special characters. Gajet was the only guy missing, and thus I couldn't run the Aprior War Council

• A monstrous Terminator Deathstar featuring Rachnus, Ferrus, Zakis, 10 Terminators with 3 Ass-cannons, and a Chaplain Termie.

• 2 Silencers, Level 2.

• Silencer 1 Rolls up Synapse Disruption and Warp Void.

• Silencer 2 Rolls up Synapse Disruption and Null Drain. I informed my opponent that he can pretty much ignore these guys for the whole game as their powers are useless.

• Rachnus rolls the entire tree, he's swaggering like that.

Ork List: Don't know the actual list, but here's the gist of it.

• A Stompa with ALL of the upgrades

  1 Big Mek inside, 19 Meks inside

  2 Morkanauts with all upgrades, each one with 6 Meks inside.

  3 Killa Kans, fully upgraded, 2 Deff Dreadz fully upgraded

  100 Ork Boyz

  Deathstar with 6 Mega Nobz, Gazzie, Warboss Zagroll(His warlord), and Mad Doc Grotznik

  4 Painboyz distributed between the 100 ork boyz

  6 Tankbustaz

  6 Lootaz

  40 Grotz to hold objectives in his deployment.

  10 Kommando Nobz with Snikrot

  8 Nobz

  6 Burnaboyz

Turn 1:

Orkz Deploy and start Turn 1, as I fail to Seize. I had a Scout Squad with Captain Xavion infiltrate and Scout onto the Backline objective in his deployment, threatening Zagrol's Deathstar. Kommandoz infiltrate in turn inside of a parking garage near my backline objective.

Pretty much everything moves up and gets ready to shoot. The Stompa goes 12" up to my gunline and takes 1 of the Center Objectives. No Psychic Phase at all for the Orks(Much to my dissapointment, he proxied all of his Wyrdboyz as Big Meks). Shooting Phase comes around, and the Stompa surprises everyone by killing 1 space marine The rest of his shooting is slightly better, as his two Morkanauts kill half of Captain Isaac's Incursion Squad in shooting. Already this is more shooting than I have ever witnessed the ork player do.

Zagrol turns around and charges Xavion's Scouts in Melee. His Deathstar kills Captain Xavion and all 10 scouts on turn 1. This ends his turn.

Knights Inductor begin shooting everything at the Stompa, succeeding only in taking 5 hull points. My 3 Dreadnoughts and a Sacrificial Tactical Squad move up to intercept the stompa and hold it back another turn in melee. Garven Brias isn't my warlord and I don't have Aprior Warcouncil, so he sits around with a thumb up his ass. Roland Darren is slightly more useful, and gives Stand Indomitable to the sacrificial tactical squad(YEA, 2 Power fist attacks on the counterattack bitches!) I mourn the loss of Captain Xavion briefly, and then begin whittling down the horde. Silent Hands open start opening up at the Ork Horde with Stunner Bolts(Don't know why I took these, kraken bolts would have worked better), 4 heavy bolters, and a Vindicator also participate in whittling it down for a turn. My Whirlwind kills the entire Loota Squad.

That Ends my turn, while my dreads are still getting into position.

Turn 2

Deff Koptas deep strike in my back-line, where I have a tactical squad getting into a shooting fight with kommandos. They inexplicably ignore the tactical marines(Which are in melee at this point)

More shooting from the Stompa results in a dead Silencer, Captain Isaac loses 3 more marines from Split-fire. Morkanauts still do more damage, but the rest of his boyz are stuck marching up No-Mans-Land. At this point the Ork Player weeps manly tears as he realizes that Zagrol's Deathstar is now 48" away from the nearest enemy, and would take 5 or 6 turns to reach them. For some inexplicable reason, he doesn't charge his Stompa(The Second of MANY strategic mistakes that he's prone to making) This ends his turn.

I fail to get my Deathstar In. My Space Marine Allies(Read: A Stormtalon) get on the board instead. Garven brias still has a thumb up his ass. Captain Isaac barely hauls ass with his leadership, and gets within 1" of a Morkanaut(Looking at this point to suicide via meltabomb). The Stompa is fully repaired(SON OF A BITCH, 20 fucking dice to repair 3 hull points is INSANE). So more shooting brings in 0 more hull points. This time I get my ass in gear and haul my 3 Dreadnoughts into melee with it. 15 Power Fists, turns into 11 Hits, which becomes 7 Hull Points. The Ork Player is sweating BULLETS so hard that a tiny dakka noise is heard every few seconds. Counter-attacks from the Stompa VAPORIZES 1 dread, and takes a hull point off a second. His Stomp attack kills the second dread, and takes 2 hull points off of the 3rd(WHEEEEEE). COMBAT LOCKED.

Captain Isaac bravely sacrifices himself to roll a 1 on his melta bomb. He dies to a power klaw.

Turn 3 Considerably less shooting, Stompa in Melee can't repair so he's stuck with 7 hull points lost. I don't even know what the hell the Ork Player is doing at this point. He forgets for the 3rd turn in a row to run his horde. Kommandoz charge my backline tactical squad. They get mulched because of shit dice and 6+ saves, but they lock combat. My marines barely pass their fear check(Hah, this suddenly matters without ATSKNF) Stompa kills the Dreadnought with his S:D Chainsword. Dreaddie is VAPORIZED by a 6. His Deff Koptaz kill my only Razorback(Nobody in it).

My turn begins, and I roll a fucking 1 on my Termie Deathstar. At this point there were 5 bystanders all shouting in awe at my skills with dice. My ENTIRE ARMY shoots the Stompa, and the very last krak-missile I had finally brings it down. The Stompa gets a TITANIC EXPLOSION, and kills 15 Orks, and 5 of his Nobz, it also kills 4 of my tactical marines.

Two Tactical Squads move into position to sacrifice themselves to the Ork Horde, so the rest of my gunline can live. Suppressors with Heavy Bolters and the Silent Hands manage to beat one half of the horde back by a whopping 8", which delays that half by a whole round.

Turn 4 By now we've been at the game for 7 hours. Nevermind that deployment took a full hour, and it took us 2 whole hours just to start turn 2. Stompa's Dead, 2 Morkanauts and the Kan'Horde are now finally in my deployment, where absolutely nothing is near them except a Land Raider. The left half of his Boyz Horde fails to get into melee with my tactical squad, and loses 2 boyz to plasma rifles. Right half gets all of 4 boyz into melee with my second sacrificial lamb. They kill 4 Tactical Marines as the Sarg is dead and thus can't give FNP to them. Said tactical marines fail their morale check with an 11 and flee, Orkz fail to catch them(Sweats bolts)

My Deathstar finally comes on. As I suddenly realize that Stubborn means I don't give a damn about the perils -5 modifier, I go all out and throw 6 dice into Unleash Aura(needing 2 dice to hit Zagroll), and then only get 1 dice. 5 Dice follow into Shatter Mind on Gazzie with going for 2, and I get it with 3, and PERILS. Morale Check is passed, Gazzie takes a whopping 1 wound. Shooting goes off much better as the 3 Ass-cannons shred Zagroll's deathstar to pieces, and he loses all of his Mega Nobz plus Mad Doc.

My Spess Murheen allies(A single Stormtalon) single-handedly destroy the entire group of 3 Killa Kans(Surprising everyone by being the only unit this whole game that actually does any decent damage). Game ends here as we run out of time(FLGS Closing)

At this point we tally up the kill-points and objectives. We both have 3 objectives, so it goes down to me losing because I'm too trigger-happy on my suicide squading.

Notes: Despite what I've said previously about Knights Inductor having a Snowball effect, they actually seem to turn rather monogamous at later point levels. Silencers with Massed-Null Charges aren't versatile enough to actually be useful in apocalypse games against non-psyker armies, and Fearing People off of the board isn't anywhere near as powerful when you would have to fear someone a whopping 48" to get them killed. It's also kind of hard to do when I don't ever bother using formations to get my Null Power rerolls. Evilexecutive (talk) 06:03, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

---

THOUGHT FOR THE DAYf: Don't overdo Suicide Squads, one to turn the deathstar around is enough. Doing too many will just lose you the game. Also don't include Xavion in your suicide squad.Evilexecutive (talk) 06:03, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

What was your premtive strikes aimed at? You should have had at least 4 from Xavion and the chapter master. --Bobthe6th (talk) 15:35, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Absolutely nothing, in a game as large as this I forgot to use them. Though if I were to use them, it would be Xavion's Squad firing into Zagroll's Deathstar, a Whirlwind Shooting some Lootas, and that would be it. Evilexecutive (talk) 17:08, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

One should note that the Whirlwind can't shoot using Preemptive Strike, because it does not possess The Unseen special rule. When you can't seize and need to shoot him first or want to get a free Scout move on your 1st turn, PS is a key ability you want to keep in mind, even if it's not as powerful as it used to be in the past. Remoon101 (talk) 18:58, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Giving Alpha Strike to Orks is not my favorite thing to do, so it probably in that case would have just gone to my scout squad instead. Preemptive Strike wouldn't have done anything to the Stompa either as I didn't have enough firepower to bring it down on Turn 1, and he would have just repaired it on his first turn. Neither were any of my guys in range of his other stuff.Evilexecutive (talk) 20:44, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

4.0 KI vs 288 Catgirls

Game Details Here:

EvilExecutive: Imperial Cults and Militia, 1845

Providences:

- Abhuman Helots
- Cybernetic Augmentation

HQ:

Force Commander

- Cyber Familiar
- Power Fist
- Infravisor

Platoon Command Squad

- 10 men
- Refractor Field
- Squad-wide Heavy Stubbers

Discipline Cadre

- 5 Men
- Refractor Fields
- Power Axes

Elites: Medicae Detachment

- 3 men

Troops

50-man Leve Squad

- Pistol/CCW

50-man Leve Squad

- Pistol/CCW

50-man Leve Squad

- Pistol/CCW

50-man Leve Squad

- Pistol/CCW

20-man Grenadier Squad

- 2 Plasma Guns

20-man Grenadier Squad

- 2 Plasma Guns

Dedicated Transport

Gorgon Assault Transport

Heavy Support 3-gun Rapier Team

- Laser Destroyers

3-gun Rapier Team

- Laser Destroyers

3-gun Rapier Team

- Laser Destroyers

Remoon: Knights Inductor 4th Edition 1498pts/1850pts Balanced Approach v4.0 [Strength 4/5] <3 Victories, 3 Defeats, 1 Draw> [Combined Arms Detachment] Special Rules: Warlord may re-roll for traits, Troops have Objective Secured

• HQ- Silencer w/ Secundus upgrade, Terminator Armor, Null Axe, Null-Amp, Storm Shield, Tracer Bolts, Marksman Auto-sense, LAM Unit, Aceso 217pts
• Troops- 12man Tactical squad w/ Camo cloaks, Specialized Bolt Ammunition, Aceso & Sergeant 265pts
• Troops- 6man Scout squad w/ x4 Sniper Rifles, x2 AAMR’s 96pts
• Troops- 6man Guard Aspirant squad w/ Astartes Riot Shields, LAM Units, x2 Meltaguns, Combi-Melta, Melta bombs 153pts
• Troops- 6man Guard Aspirant squad w/ LAM Units, x2 Meltaguns, Melta bombs 107pts
• Fast Attack- Mobilius Artillery w/ x5 Servitors, x3 Heavy Mortars 180pts
• Fast Attack- Drop pod w/ 12man Capacity upgrade & Locator beacon 45pts
• Heavy- 6man Suppressor squad w/ Marksman Auto-sense, x3 Lascannons 162pts
• Heavy- 3man Marauder Team w/ x3 Assault Cannons, Specialized Bolt Ammo, Networked Targeting Array & x3 Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons 274pts

+350pts

• Elites- Workshop Mechanicus Cohort w/ +1 Techmarine 205pts

- 1st Techmarine: x1 Gravitic Mass Driver, x1 LAM Unit, x1 Bolster Defenses, Signature Projector ASS - 2nd Techmarine: x1 Specialized Bolt Ammunition & Disruptor Array ASS

• Elites- Dreadnought w/ x2 Twin-linked Auto-cannons & Camo Netting 130pts
• Heavy- Add Missile Launcher to Suppressor squad +15pts

Turn 1: Lots and lots of catgirls get slaughtered. Easily a third of the army. A combination of poor leadership and shitty luck on rerolls has most of my army pinned, and debuffed, and debuffed some more. A Silencer does most of the damage by reducing leadership and ballistic skill from my already beyond shit ballistic skill

Remoon101: Not to mention the models were in nice, tight, orderly formations perfect for large blasts. Understandably it would be hard/annoying to spread out that many models but you have to show them catgirls some love.

Turn 2: 60% of the catgirls are now dead, and the rest are either crippled or running off of the board. I conceded here.

Remoon101: As I mentioned earlier, the tight formations allowed the heavy mortar, which were unimpressive by normal standards, to really reap a bloody tally. The one thing I was having trouble tackling was the Heavy Gorgon Transport, with only 1 HP peeled off with the Gravitic Mass Driver and my deep striking melta team not really doing anything.

What we learned 4.0 KI can get pretty damn nasty against low LD armies, especially when optimized for spamming pinning, blind, and morale checks of every imaginable kind. Obviously an opponent who wants to go up against KI should expect that he needs a combination of high leadership, and rerolls for leadership. And as for army construction, I feel like Cybernetic Augmentations isn't useful enough. Sure having a +1 Invuln save is great, but it's only realistically useful for making sure your whole army has an unreliable t-shirt save, and only characters have a 4++. So now I know that Survivors of the Dark Ages would be more useful, therefore I should be focusing on grenadier squads when I build this army IRL.

Next time, I'd like to get a rematch, featuring catgirls in power armour. No levee squads though, since SOTDA prevents me from spamming them. Evil Executive, CEO of Evil Incorporated (talk) 02:11, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

From Remoon101 Playing against that many infantry reminded me of a game I had with KI against a very infantry-based Solar Auxilia army, with similar results as the lack of heavy weapons to tackle the Marauder squad (and thus the Silencer) were somewhat lacking. I was nervous since I had to drop the Vaeris in the latest codex update but the heavy mortars ended up kicking ass and the marauders were extremely tough against all the S3 being thrown at it (with 2+ armor techmarine and silencer absorbing whatever wounds got through).

As for the codex update itself, the Indomitable Spirit change never really came into play, being situational as it was. Same to the Suppression Tactics, though that allowed for a clutch Pinning to come through with some seriously bad luck on Exec's end. We both felt that the Pseudo-Battle Focus that is the Tactical Fire teams could use a little work. I feel like I still want to aim for a unique squad-to-squad interaction or for the Split Fire with bigger price increase. All in all a good game and a rematch is definitely called for. Remoon101 (talk) 11:50, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Could we try playtesting against other /tg/ codexes?

As someone who's working on three of them (Squats, Tyranids, and Slaugth, with plans for more background Xenos books) and given that there's a number of pretty complete fandexes around like the Thousand Sons, Covenant, Dark Angels remake and so on, would it perhaps be possible to try testing them out against the other 1d4chan fandexes? The Squats and Tyranids in particular look like they could do with some test runs. `Crazy Cryptek (talk) 20:57, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Sounds good, I actually really like the Codex: /tg/Tyranids, and have been planning on using it to make a Hive Fleet Nidhoggr army for quite some time. "Rawr, Lava tyranids!" As for testing it, that will depend on if I can find a tyranid player in the first place, seeing as they're pretty rare at my FLGS. However, I do know a Chaos Player that I might be able to convince to try out the Codex: Thousand Sons against Codex: Knights Inductor. I'll get it printed out today and bring it to him on sunday. -Evilexecutive

Although my FLGS is more or less ok with me using the Knights Inductor, no-one else wants to even try the other tg codices at all - i've brought it up in the past. I'm afraid I won't be able to help very much. -Mirmidion43

I'm currently playing all of my games on Vassal 40k so me using Knights isn't a problem except against the more try-hard tournament people. I might be able to get a few of the regular players online interested in some of the /tg/ 'dexes Remoon101 (talk) 22:41, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

I just got done reading the PDF of Codex: Thousand Sons, and you can call me absolutely impressed. I might be tempted to try it for a Fluffy Ravens Corvidae(Blood Ravens) detachment someday. But for now I'm sticking with my Knights Inductor army. That being said, from what I see, Thousand Sons are EXTREMELY psyker oriented, which are hard-countered by Silencers from this codex. Though let me run a Mathhammer simulation

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Slightly over a Kill Team, both codexes suck at this points value, as they're both balanced towards 3k rather than 1.85k/2k

275 Points: Ahzek Ahriman Mastery Level 4 Vs. 274 Points: 1 Silencer Level 2

- Terminator Armor, Storm Shield, Null Axe

1 Silencer Level 2

- Bolter, Camo Cloak, Stun Bolts, Electro Shackles, Null Axe

Both start 24" away from each other, Because Blessings+Maledictions auto-fail against Silencers, he rolls 4 times on Corvidae Cult, and gets Sentence, Perfect Timing, Golden Way, and Foreboding. He can't directly harm the Silencers with his powers, and his AP3 Pistol needs to be closer, so Ahriman moves up 6", and attempts to manifest Golden Way

Ahriman has 2 degrees of Success with 4 warp charges out of 10, while the Silencers attempt to Deny with Null Charges, of which they use 5 charges. There are 2 5s, and the power fails. He then attempts to manifest Perfect Timing, using 6 warp charges, he succeeds with 2, with a shit roll but no doubles. Silencers use 5 Null Charges, of which 3 succeed. The power doesn't go off, so Ahriman runs 4"

There is now 14" between the Silencers and Ahriman

The Silencers are both level 2. Termi-Silencer has Warp Void and Null Banishment, both mostly useless right now. Power Armor silencer has Horrifying Presence and Isolate, which are moderately more useful. They both move up 6". There are 5 Charges this phase, so Silencers have 9 null charges to use, Ahriman has 9 Warp Charges.

Terminator Silencer attempts to manifest his Primaris, and attempts it on 3 charges. He only gets 1 successful dice, meaning it's range is only 6", and therefore fails. Power Armor Silencer also spends 3 charges to attempt his Primaris, and he also only gets 1 off, it similarly fails. Termi silencer attempts to manifest Isolate on Ahriman, with 2 charges, and it fails because of shit dice.

The Terminator Silencer is relentless, and runs 3", leaving him 5" away from Ahriman. Power Armor silencer is in Rapid Fire Range for his bolter, he hits twice, and causes 1 wound, which Ahriman succeeds his save. Termi-Silencer declares a charge, and Ahriman fails his overwatch. 8" charge, makes the Termi in melee. Ahriman's got the higher initiative, so he strikes first getting 1 hit, and 1 wound, which the silencer saves. Silencer makes 3 attacks hitting on 4s, getting 1 hit, and 1 wound. Ahriman's down to 2 wounds now.

Turn 2

Ahriman's in melee! 3 attacks, 1 hit, 1 wound, silencer saves. Silencer has 2 attacks, both fail.

Second Silencer moves up 6", putting him 2" away from Ahriman. For the psychic phase, 1 charge is rolled. And the Termi-silencer attempts to Activate his Null Axe with all 5 dice, which succeeds with Silencer-Perils. He's not attached to any squads, so there's no consequences here. Ahriman fails to deny.

Second silencer declares a charge, and succeeds to make the 2" minimum charge distance. Ahriman strikes first again, 1 hit, 1 wound, and the Terminator Silencer fails his armor save. Now the Power Armor Silencer has activated Null Axe, we resolve for him first. 2 Hits, 1 wound, and Ahriman's soul is omm-nommed by the void.

For all intents and purposes, neither team can get any Psychic/Silencer powers off for shit, though the battle was pretty much decided solely by melee, where the Silencers can take Null-Axes . Ahriman's lack of an Invuln Save or Eternal Warrior(Which would have saved him from the Null-Axes) pretty much killed him in melee.

You seem to miss that /tg/-dex Ahriman have High Sorcery, which means Ld-test based psychic tests (so he have 3.7 successes at average instead of only two) and Sword word of power included in his armour, which means -1 penalty to all Deny attempts against his powers. And that he have extra five powers picked during deployment from his Book of Kalimakus, of which he can get Battle Form to gain EW, and Book word of power to pick his other powers in and army list. Also, you missed extra D6 null charges and d3 warp charges Silencers and Ahriman respectively get at the start of each of theirs psi phases. Of course, Ahriman is not a solo monster hero slayer (that'd be Hathor Maat), but a force multiplier and psychic dakka generator, which means he needs and army to bunker in and buff with his powers to win his points back, so he'd probably still lose against two Silencers.Mezmerro (talk) 10:03, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Ah, thanks for the info. I didn't actually forget the D6 and the D3, though Ahzek Ahriman did not actually have High Sorcery in his list of Special Rules, or at least I didn't see it. Now I checked, and I saw that my mistake was in that his "High Sorcery" rule was merged under Rubric Sorcerer, ;_;. My main problem though being that These are two Advanced Rules clashing against each other, where Null-Charges Auto-deny on 5+(used to be 4+), and Ahriman gives enemies a -1 to attempts to deny. It's not clear which one has the precedent as they're both at the same class. I went on the side of the Null Charges, being that it's a psychic phase overhaul, while Ahzek's power seems to be intended to be dealing with Warp Charges. Ahriman's Psychic Dakka, hilariously powerful as it is, doesn't do him much good when dealing with Silencers who are immune, and make their squad immune to Witchfires+Blessings. So I had pretty much given up on psychics for his side, and just gave Ahriman all of the Blessings I could find(Which were in Corvidae)

In my next game, which'll be at considerably more points(Somewhere around 1000), I'll have to see how much better they can do when they've got standard Sorcerer's kitted out with Corvidae to buff squads with lots of Rerolls. Using Ahriman is pretty wasteful as he's spending points to get more Psychic Dakka, when Psychic Dakka auto-fails against silencers and their attached squads.

Well, if I had to go with Thousand Sons list NOT tailored against Knights Inductor, i'd probably had to utilize sons' superior mobility with Wormholes, and kite the SIlencer squad, while focusing firepower on the other squads. My vindicator/deciever (because you NEED at least one Demolisher cannon in this army) would probably spend his entire game chasing and shooting down that Silencer squad. And KI player would probably try to make the best of his Ld-reducing powers, given TS psi-test work from Ld-tests.

Also, Pavoni primaris "Lightning" (and Raptora "Rockfall" to a lesser extend) would be a nice counter to Silencers, as it have a special rule, which makes it into an ordinary shooting attack, which cannot be denied or otherwise negate with anti-psychic rules (since all the magic happens inside the sorcerer's nervous system, and once the lightning leaves his fingers it is no different from the one Necrons or AdMechs conjure with their technology). Mezmerro (talk) 15:03, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

I've edited the Empyrean Anathema rule so that the Null Charge Deny roll is an unmodifiable 5+; can't be improved or worsened by any effects in line with what has been said. Remoon101 (talk) 21:40, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

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Hey Cryptek, if you've got any /tg/ Thousand Sons lists you want to pit against Knights Inductor, I'd be happy to post some more Batreps for them. I do quite enjoy doing these Mindgames where I simulate entire battles in my head. Indeed I have been blessed by the Architect with a strategic mind. ^_^ -Evilexecutive, Evilexecutive@gmail.com