Talk:Codex - Space Marines Angry Smurf Edition

INTRO

• I'm fine with it being changed, I think it's currently the second worst one (after Orks), but the genetically engineered bit is from official fluff as that is what GW believes them to be.

The Space Marine serum (name is currently lost on me) does actually change DNA doesn't it? - Pirate

• The only chapter I'm aware of that has its aspirants drink a DNA-altering cocktail is the Space Wolves, which is the leading cause of Wulfen Syndrome. Space Marines are genetically human (iirc the fluff has simply never addressed what would happen if you tried it on an abhuman) with biotic implants (like cybernetic implants, but made of meat). The DNA of the implants is certainly engineered, but the DNA of the host is not. The confusion may come from the fact that not all of the organs work the same way; some are simply additional or replacement organs, like the secondary heart or lyman's ear, while some are glandular, and use hormones, neurotransmitters, and what have you to induce changes significantly broader in scope than you might normally associate with an implant, such as the ossmodula. That is why the progenoids exist, actually; if Space Marines WERE genetically engineered, you could retrieve a viable gene-seed (which is the colloquial term for stem cell batch) from their bone marrow. Because they are NOT genetically engineered, the progenoids exist to produce gene-seed. Note that gene-seed is not injected; it is used to grow new Space Marine organs, which is normally done in the lab by an apothecary. Note further that all chapters employ some manner of ingested or injected cocktails to help "activate" the implanted organs - the Blood Angels are very famous for their method - but outside of the Space Wolves, the cocktail's only job is kicking the implants into gear, and then the implants modify the body.
• Sorry about making you write this all out, I really should have just gone and read it on a wiki.

If you want to write a new intro or change the existing one I'm fine with that, just don't include the word bioimplanted.

The reason why I said it is canon is because of the AND THEY SHALL KNOW NO FEAR bit in the INTRODUCTION of the 7th ed official codex. "Each Space Marine is an elite, genetically engineered super-soldier, a mighty and fearless hero worth a hundred lesser men."

How can you explain Space Marines growing their rip cage together into a solid shield if not through the changing of their DNA by implants? You would have to say that the ossmodula produces all the cells neccessary for this mutation, which doesn't seem to be what GW is suggesting by calling Space Marines genetically engineered.

As for why you cannot just take a Space Marines gene sample (skin cells would actually be suffecient if that were the case) it may be that the dose isn't strong enough. The fluff seems to indicate the transmitted organs working against the body, believing the organs to somehow subvert the body's immune system doesn't seem too far off. It may be that the body's immune system simply rejects cells transferred from other astartes. - Pirate

Detachments

I think the Gladius Strike Force should be removed. I tried making an 1850 SM army, it featured a ton of models, the army featured 450-ish pts worth of free vehicles. Making it essentially a 2300 pts list. The army didn´t seem very elite at all. I´m not currently sure whether or not SM deserve an equally powerful replacement for the Company Support special rule or if I can just remove it. Just as a note the only thing I currently find problematic is the Company Support special rule, which makes a unit of 5 SM cost 20-40 pts when you deduct the price of their free transport.

Layout

• Don't change the layout from what is currently found in the codices, unless it is to further mimic the official codices.

I'm also not too fond of the idea of letting someone "start" changing the layout of one codex, someone is going to have to do it for the other 20 codices as well... That is if the change was actually a good one.

The fact of the matter is that I've used at least 50 hours trying to make the codices look more like the official 7th edition codices because I couldn't get any feedback other than "your format is shit, make it look official", the first few times I asked for feedback. I'm sure as hell not going to go through and change everything again just because this one might be appreciated. Keep the mega table if you want, but also keep the individual ones and make it look like the official release.

The reason I don't think a summary of profiles is needed is because I imagine most people like to view the codex online, where click top of file and then click into the weapon you want.

Sorry if I'm being an ass, but I legitimately think my own layout (with the rules for every weapon and special rule being in every entry where they were needed) was the best and I thoroughly enjoyed using it. But the sad fact is that while it might seem smarter to some people, it is going to seem dumber to others. So no changes are being made unless it makes the codices look more like the official versions.

• Copying and pasting a rule's definition over and over will make the codex impossible to maintain over time, as any change you decide to make to any rule has to be propagated throughout the entire document, instead of only being changed in one place. You're much better off defining a rule once, then having every entry link back to that definition. For example, check out this link, which I could put anywhere on the page and it would link back here. I'll put a more complex example below. Note that anyone who uses one of these links can just use their browser's back button to go back to the entry they were just reading, or they can always choose to open the link in a new tab.

Sample Layout for Ease of Maintenance

Rules Definitions

Relentless

Definition of relentless.

Fleet

Definition of fleet.

Army Entries

Relentless Squad

Relentless

Fleet Squad

Fleet

• Thanks for suggesting the change, it has already been used in the Tau and Guard codices. The problem is, I want other people to use these codices, I also want to change codices at my leasure, mostly because I'm a lazy bastard so I need to work when I feel like it or nothing will ever get done. This means I have to make PDFs. Links in a PDF will just open up a web page, so going through the codices and making a bazillion internal links seem like a waste of time when they'll be useless in PDF form which I think is what the most people will be using.

As for making changes with my system, in Microsoft Word you can select all occurances of a rule and just replace it. Although there is not much sense in me defending a system I'm never going back to.

Names

Centurions

• This name is stupid. Not only did it have meaning in the roman era of Terra, it was also used for the same purpose in 30k. Cent means hundred or hundredth, a Centurion in a roman legion was someone who led 100 men. A Centurion in 30k is a leader of 100 men. Why should these suits be named after the Captain equivalents of 2k BC and 30k AD?
• Decimator also has meaning; you can take your pick of Roman (where it means one who kills 10% of the target) or 40k (where it means a kind of Daemon Engine dating back at least to M35). This seems even less likely than Centurion. If there is a strong impetus to change the name (which will confuse players, so I think there is a legitimate case to be made for keeping Centurion), the two obvious choices for heavy infantry are ancient Greek, which would be Hoplite armour, or ancient Roman, which would be Triarius armour. Either way, Decimator armour makes even less sense than Centurion armour in-setting.
• I learned of Decimator Daemon Engines after changing the name and I was honestly just kind of hoping nobody would notice. As for the Roman there is nothing called a Decimator, what you might be thinking of is the punishment called decimation where the soldiers of a legion were required to kill 1/10 of their own through lottery.

I get that changing names might be confusing, but sometimes you just have to point out when people are calling a spade a fork. Calling it a shovel is at least better in my opinion.

You can go ahead and change it, I would prefer anything but Centurion armour but I will back down if you insist. - Pirate

Angry Spiritual Liege Edition

• I don´t like the name. I want to change the name to Angry Smurf Edition, I know SMs cover all but 3 chapters and smurfs only cover 1 chapter, but on the other hand the great beast only ever cared about smurfs. There is also the fact that it is the only army with 2 words in-between Angry and Edition. I won´t do it if anyone disagrees though, no big deal. - Angry Pirate
• Fine by me. Codex: Space Marines is practically Codex: Ultramarines anyways, even post-Ward.--Asorel (talk) 14:18, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Apart in Spirit, Apart in Body

• Is it important that this is the name of the Knights Inductor special rule? If otherwise I would like to have it changed to something else.
• Only the content is really important to me. You can change the name of the rule for it if you'd like. Evilexecutive (talk) 16:46, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Special Rules

Stubborn and Fearless replacing ATSKNF

ATSKNF is stupid rule, "we make a tactical retreat when we fail a leadership test and think we can get away" doesn´t seem or sound tactical to me. I have implement a way for squads to gain Hit and Run which more closely resembles an order rather than the more random way of doing it which was ATSKNF. - Angry Pirate

Master of Ballistics

• Shouldn't this be renamed, since bolt weapons do not obey ballistic physics and are not the only ballistic weapon? Master of Bolts or Master of Bolters seems more appropriate.
• Why would they not obey ballistic physics? They have mass and presuming most 40k games take place on a planet like structure, they will follow ballistic physics.

I don't think your ideas are very good, I'd be fine with gunslinger or something else entirely though as I can see your point.

• I never said I was any good at naming rules, but its specificity to bolt weapons suggests to me it should be named appropriately. To the first questioner: I was mistaken about the definition of ballistics; I thought it only applied to unpowered projectiles, whereas bolts are rockets, but I just looked it up and it applies to both. My point was that firing a bolt is significantly more similar to firing an RPG than a revolver.
• You can change it when you feel like it, as soon as you find a better name than Master of Bolts/Bolters. - Pirate

Chapter Tactics

/tg/ chapter

Hey, if we're going to start giving chapter tactics to a small number of /tg/ chapters, I would like to ask that we come up with a list of noteworthy ones to set up tactics for. Evilexecutive (talk) 16:52, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

• I don´t mind if every single Chapter ever created got their own chapter tactics. If the list gets too long, which I suppose it´s already getting we´ll just put it in a divisible thingy.

Mentor Marines

• Chapter tactics for angry Mentor Marines? The cool Mentors that is, the ones learning and testing weaponry to then actually "mentor" other chapters and guardsman regiments. Experimental weaponry, maybe a mentor detatchment simmilar to an allies detatchment, as that is how The mentor legion usually deploys. Would be fun and fluffy.

• Just don´t make them overpowered.

• No no no. i have no intentions of making something overpowered. Small bonuses like the other chapter tactics, and If something is a bit to Much there would be a downside to them as well to balance out.

Soul Drinkers Chapter Tactics

Modeled on the period between books 2 & 4, when they were still viable as a chapter.

• Honor against Duty: Armies of the Imperium are Allies of Convenience with models with Chapter Tactics (Soul Drinkers). Cult Mechanicus & Skitarii are instead Come The Apocalypse allies. In addition, all Soul Drinker models have the Stubborn USR.
• Honor's Price:
  • A maximum of 10 models in any Soul Drinker army may be equipped with Terminator Armour or Cataphracti Terminator Armour. These models may never deploy by deep strike but may embark in a drop pod. If all Terminator models in Soul Drinker army are permanently removed from play, the opponent gains d3 victory points.
  • Chaplains may not be taken in a Soul Drinker army, with the exception of Iktinos as detailed below.
  • Soul Drinkers may not take any vehicles of any kind with the exception of Drop Pods. If all drop pods are removed from play, the opponent gains 1 victory point.
  • Soul Drinkers may not be equipped with Grav Weapons or Centurion Warsuits.
  • Captains may not be upgraded to Chapter Masters in a Soul Drinker army.

• Virtues of Autonomy: Scout Squads with Chapter Tactics (Soul Drinkers) do not have the And They Shall Know No Fear USR. Scout sergeants must be upgraded to veteran sergeants.
• Psychic Harvest: Any Tactical, Scout or Assault squad of 10 models may take one Lexicanum as an upgrade to a Marine or Scout for +20 points instead of a heavy weapon or plasma pistol. This model becomes a Character and level 1 Psyker but may only choose the Primaris power from Biomancy, Pyromancy or Telekinesis disciplines.
• Glory from on high: On the turn they arrive from deep strike through a drop pod, models firing bolters, bolt pistols and and storm bolters add the Shred USR to their shooting attacks. In addition models in Terminator Armour may make a disordered charge.
• Close order bolter drill: Soul Drinker models firing Boltguns (but not combi-bolters or bolt pistols) reroll to hit and gain the Relentless USR, but always count as making a disordered charge after shooting boltguns. This does not apply to special issue ammunition.

• Legends of the Soul Drinkers:: Detachments using Soul Drinkers Chapter Tactics gain access to the following Characters:

Iktinos, Master of Sanctity

	Pts	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv	Unit Type	Composition
Iktinos	165	5	5	4	4	3	5	3	10	2+/4++	Infantry (C)	1 Unique

Wargear:

• Crozius Arcanum (Power Maul)
• Artificer Armour
• Plasma Pistol
• Frag Grenades
• Rosarius

A model armed with a Rosarius receives a 4+ invulnerable save. May be upgraded with a Jump Pack for +15 pts

Special rules:

• Independent Character
• Fearless
• Zealot
• Chapter Tactics: Soul Drinkers

Iktinos is a HQ choice and may be used in place of a Chaplain in any formation.

Warlord Trait:

• Rites of War

Sarpedon, Abberant Master

	Pts	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv	Unit Type	Composition
Sarpedon	325	5	5	6	6	3	7	2	10	3+	Beast (C)	1 Unique

Wargear:

• Power Armour
• Bolter
• Frag Grenades
• Psychic Hood
• The Soulspear

The Soulspear is a close combat weapon which strikes at strength D.

• Bionic Legs

Sarpedon's mutated form has been repaired frequently with bionic augments. This grants him a 5+ Feel No Pain.

Special rules:

• Independent Character
• Chapter Tactics: Soul Drinkers
• Extremely Bulky
• Relentless

Sarpedon may join infantry or jump infantry units, and may embark on a transport.

• Psyker (Mastery Level 2)

Sarpedon knows the Terrify and Hallucination powers from the Telepathy Discipline and harnesses warp charges on a 3+. In addition before manifesting either power he may increase the warp charge cost by 1 to affect all other units in range.

Sarpedon is a Lord of War choice for a Soul Drinkers army, and no other Soul Drinker character may be your warlord if he is included. Warlord Trait:

• Angel of Death

• Due to a number of problems with the chapter tactic I have temporarily moved them out here to the discussion page. I hope this is not taken the wrong way, I am very appreciative of people addding additional chapters, there are just some issues we have to iron out.

What if I wanted to play Soul Drinkers before the whole ordeal which took place in the books happened. Or maybe after, imagining what would happen if the Chapter got redeemed because of their assistance of the Fists and the few remaining survivors got flung out of the warp at some point in time and started rebuilding their chapter? Their entire history between the first and the last books have already been detailed, so these tactics would only be usable as a means of re-enacting events in the books.

Is it explicitly noted that they only have 10 suits of Terminator armour?

Is it explicit that they only have drop pods as transports and that they only have 10 suits of terminator armour and no chaplains?

D3 victory points for a unit or two of Terminators and/or all Drop Pods seems excessive when a Warlord is only worth 1.

In the wikia page it says that soul drinkers do not train their aspirants in the scout company. I assume they either do not use scouts at all or they have fully trained marines. If the former then they should not have access to Scouts at all and if the latter then they need access to an elite scout unit with WS/BS 4.

I do not really get why they should not have ATSKNF (which has been replaced by Stubborn btw). Also what is the story of the psychic harvest, I could not find a record of anything like that on the wikia.

Charging from deep strike is toxic and makes it impossible to balance deep striking assault units when you sometimes get to charge and other times (with all other chapter tactics) do not. This rule definitely has to be reworked. Angry Pirate (talk) 13:42, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

• terminator armour - in the entire series, only two suits of terminator armour (Captain Karreidin, and *SPOILER* Daenyathos's predecessor) is mentioned, with a repeated emphasis on limited termie armour availiability. They also mention that the teleportation systems on the soul drinker fleet ceased working long before any of the books, and the Brokenback wouldn't have any in the first place.
• Chaplains - in the books, the only chaplain mentioned is Iktinos - during the purge in book one it was mentioned that the majority of the chapter command rejected Sarpedon (as they should). I believe he was also mentioned as their only chaplain in book 4
• d3 victory points for termies would indicate that they're 1. simply irreplacable and 2. significantly better for SD. I'd imagine termy armour would only ever be used on characters anyway
• Scouts - During the renewed Harvest period (between books 2 and 4 when, basically, they were viable as a chapter again) and as a major plot point in book 3 they did scouts. Book 3 also shows how they deployed active neophyte librarians in the scout companies as a matter of standard practice. Book 2 is basically them removing what prevented the creation of scouts to that point. I really don't know where wikia got its information from?
• ATSKNF - from book 3 and 4 again, new scouts don't get the hypno conditioning standard to other chapters. Book 4 is built on the ramifications of that. Stubborn instead is a good idea however.
• Charging from deep strike - In which case i'd suggest only terminators/terminator characters should have it as it's countered by the d3 penalty of losing all of them PSC Wintergreen (talk) 21:29, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Regarding re-enacting only, the tactics in the books goes back to the magical under-detailed period between book 2 and 4, when they rebuilt themselves to almost full chapter strength and cruised around being the Robin Hood of the Imperium. A better author could have made an entire series of that period. As for pre-'heresy' all that would change is the limitation on chaplains, captains, and losing Sarpedon as a LoW choice. post Phalanx (although there's really no fluff to back it up, but what the hell go nuts) you may as well just use the angry chaos codex. PSC Wintergreen (talk) 21:34, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

• I don't really get how it's a big deal if you lose the last few pieces of Terminator armour you have. You can hardly form a breach head with 10 Terminators. So to me it seems that 0 is as good/bad as 10.

The problem with giving a chapter tactic a bunch of negatives is that people simply won't use those, in a campaign you might come to miss that you can't take certain units, but beyond your opponent being able to guess what kind of army you are playing based on your chapter tactic, it offers no real weakness. Due to the fact that you are not required to say which chapter tactic you are using before a game, any weaknesses are just that, weaknesses. I can't really compesate you for your fluffy weaknesses, because unless you make it an issue it won't be an issue. So for example if I have chapter tactics 1 and 2:

1. 1: Rage.
2. 2: Rage and Crusader, but you cannot take Bikes.

You would just take #2 every time you are not planning on using bikes making it a more powerful tactic, despite it seemingly having a weakness. There are enough options to make up for the loss of bikes.

All that being said I'm fine with some chapters having purely cosmetic weaknesses that won't actually make any difference in games.

While only allowing Terminators to charge from deep strike fixes the tactic, it doesn't make any sense. Why would Soul Drinkers have that much of a focus on Terminators if there are so few of them? If the books only had 1 active Marine with Termie armour I would say that is putting too much focus on Terminator armour.

ATSKNF - what I'm saying is that no one has ATSKNF, so Scouts won't be special as you intended.

• Close Quarters Experts: While within 12" of an enemy model a model with the Chapter Tactics (Soul Drinkers) special rule gains the Preferred Enemy special rule.
• Honor against Duty: Adeptus Mechanicus are Come The Apocalypse allies.
• Honor's Price: You may not include Chapter Masters, Chaplains, Masters of Sanctity, Eliminator Squads, Terminator Squads, Lexicanum Conclaves, Decimator Squads or models with the Relic Pattern special rule.
• Precious Last: If all Vehicles and all models armed with Terminator armour and Decimator armour have been destroyed at the end of the battle, your opponent gains an additional D3 Victory Points.
• Virtues of Autonomy: Scouts and Scout Sergeants, Scout Bikers and Scout Biker Sergeants do not have the Stubborn special rule. Unless accompanied by a model with the Stubborn or Fearless special rules Scouts and Scout Sergeants, Scout Bikers and Scout Biker Sergeants have the Hit & Run special rule.
• Psychic Harvest: Any Tactical Squad, Assault Squad or Scout Squad may include a single Soul Drinkers Lexicanum ...30 pts

	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv
Soul Drinkers Lexicanium	4	4	4	4	1	4	1	8	3+

UNIT TYPE:

Infantry

WARGEAR

• Bolt pistol
• Force weapon
• Frag grenades
• Krak grenades

SPECIAL RULES

• Stubborn
• Chapter Tactics (Soul Drinkers)
• Psyker (Mastery Level 0): Soul Drinkers Lexicanum only generate the primaris power from their chosen discipline and do not generate any psychic dice.

PSYKER

A Soul Drinkers Lexicanum knows the primaris power from the Biomancy, Daemonology (Santic), Divination, Pyromancy, Telekinesis or Telepathy discipline.

• Bad habits die hard; you've nailed it. PSC Wintergreen (talk) 00:39, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
• Are you saying you like this version of the chapter tactic? Angry Pirate (talk) 10:53, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
• That would in fact be the case yes. Force weapon on the lexicanum makes for a pretty cheap (effectively) power weapon/plasma pistol combo, but having to tap into the psychic pool makes it more a versatility option instead of a power option which I like enormously. Apologies for the extra work - i'm still adjusting to building down instead of building up for points costs :D PSC Wintergreen (talk) 12:23, 21 November 2016 (UTC)
• I'm not sure what you mean by building down instead of up? In this case I just picked a cost that I think feels good. Angry Pirate (talk) 13:37, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

ULTRAMARINES

• Do they really need a nerf, they haven't done anything in tournaments have they? - Pirate

Knights Inductor

• I changed the wording of some of the stuff and removed the part that doesn´t allow for Silencers since they can be Warlords in the 1d4chan codex, please say if there is a problem with the changes. Is there a reason why you don´t want them to have access to psykers even though they have access to psykers in the 1d4chan codex?
• Well, I don't necessarily approve of this anyway. As it stands right now; with me being the primary(And only active editor for the codex), I do not approve of its use in Angry Editions. It has my official stamp of, "You can't use this for Angry Edition or Waffle Edition". In any major case, I had it set up in such a way initially in the tactics, was that you could use the Silencer Primaris from the codex, but not the rest of the codex. That's their main specialty unit, and them being psychic nulls means psykers wouldn't ever want to fight for them, or even with them. Evilexecutive (talk) 03:04, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
• As for why you shouldn't have a Silencer as your warlord? They're literally autistic, induced from isolation and their training. An autistic Space Marine wouldn't be an adequate leader(It's reflected in their codex, in that other units don't use their leadership, and they don't even count for Convictus Oath). The rest of it's a balancing act that I'm pretty used to making. But you also have to understand that I'm compressing the entirety of the chapter into two, maybe a maximum of three paragraphs. As I wrote it initially, it would have my approval for Angry Editions. I don't want it to be too wordy, or change too muchEvilexecutive (talk) 03:04, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
• I also just don't want to bring the rest of the codex in. Thanks to Remmy's insistence on making the whole chapter unnecessarily complicated, I literally had to condense, rewrite, internally test, externally balance, and rewrite again and again the entirety of the rules for the psychic phase, just to get the damn things to work in 7th edition. Never-mind his meddling with unnecessary crap like "No ATSNKF, Convictus oath with a billion exceptions, characters that have ATSNKF anyway(like libbys and Xavion), characters that are literally just copies of the Badab War shit(Garven Brias, Xavion, Ferrus, and Isaac), and new units that are impossible to model... Just.. I don't want to deal with it in Angry Editions. The silencers can stay, that's all I want to put up with to keep this approved.. Please don't ever ask me to come up with a "Codex Angry Knights Inductor"Evilexecutive (talk) 03:04, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

Oh god, I went on a rant and I didn't even explain my intentions. Well, here they are. My intentions are that anyone wanting to play Knights Inductor in the Angry Editions should just use the Codex: Space Marines, with the changes in Angry Smurfs, and having the option to take a Silencer. Here, they're just a Chapter Tactic. Evilexecutive (talk) 03:19, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

• Touchy subject? I figured out your intentions, so that wasn´t a problem. I know that working with other people can sometimes be a little hard (including working with me)... I´m sorry I changed things without reading all the fluff and I didn´t see the part about other models not being able to use the Silencers fluff.

Mantis Warriors

• Why remove the Shadow Killers special rule?

• I didn't remove it, it's just Unchanged. Would you rather I clutter up the Angry Codex by repeating unchanged rules? Evilexecutive (talk) 16:34, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

• I geuss you are right. How about this?

Chapter Tactics (Angry Marines)

• COVER IS FOR PUSSIES: Subtract 1 from all cover saves made by models with Chapter Tactics (Angry Marines).

I am geussing they should have *Move Through Cover as well?

I´m not too sure about the "GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY HEAD" special rule. Can Power Feet be represented by Power Fists or do rules need to be presented? I think a unit entry for the Predator Angrinator should be put in, though I think it should be in the Heavy Support section.

I would probably keep them going with the same spiel as the Knights Inductor Tactics. Just a mini-version of their original codex, summed up in tactics. Maybe with a restriction, and letting them use one unit from their original 'dex(Maybe a character). I do like the Move Through Cover with -1 to cover saves ruling. Evilexecutive (talk) 16:49, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Iron Hands Chapter Tactics

Tanks Getting IWND

• It cannot improve the effectiveness of tanks, I am not even talking about balance here, though I think it may be on the border of OP. Whenever you take a formation you note down which chapter tactic the formation is using, when any chapter takes a vehicle formation they will just call it an Iron Hands formation to gain ITWND. This affects the armoured task force, the anti-air force, the suppression force, the land raider spearhead and the storm wing, all of these formations can simply be taken on the side, you have effectively given all these vehicles ITWND all the time in all chapters. I don´t think Iron Hands are UP now that bike spam is significantly less powerful. - Angry Pirate

• Given the vulnerabilities that Vehicles suffer in 7th, I wouldn't call it OP. I've found that anything threatening tends to be wrecked in a single turn, without the chance to roll for regen. But then, I haven't done any formal analysis on the subject, so I could be wrong. I see your point about the formations. It's abusable in other ways, with other CT, but I suppose the high number of vehicle-only formations make this exploit more potent for Iron Hands.--Asorel (talk) 22:32, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

• As I said I wasn´t sure if it was OP or not I agree with your statement that most vehicles which matter go in a single turn and rarely will IWND ever actually have any impact whatsoever. It would just be silly for all chapters to hire Iron Hands vehicles. The part about it being OP was mostly just because I don´t think it is necessary to create a rule which circumvents it by saying all Iron Hands vehicles in a gladius strike force have IWND. - Angry Pirate

Astral Claws

• Should the fact that they are a spaceborn chapter matter more than their honour? I haven´t read any fluff beyond what can be found on lexicanum and the 40k wiki, but they don´t seem to be renowned pilots. If Astral Claws have this shouldn´t every other spaceborn chapter have it as well?

• I'll be honest, I only made that chapter tactics set up because the original Astral Claws tactics were utterly useless garbage. They got stubborn.. That was it. And stubborn is utterly useless for the overwhelming majority of situations.Evilexecutive (talk) 16:58, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Raven Guard

• Raven Guard relics are in the chapter tactics section. I don´t think all SM chapters should have access to 20-30 relics. Angry Pirate (talk) 07:15, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

Dark Angels

Alternative Chapter Tactics

The Unforgiven: At the start of the game, before deployment, roll a D6 for each enemy Character. If the result is 5+, all models with this special rule gain the Preferred enemy Special rule against that Character until the end of the game.

The First Legion: In games which use the Maelstrom of War Missions, your Warlord gains the Forward Planning Warlord Trait. Otherwise, you gain an additional Victory point if you complete the Linebreaker secondary objective.

• Randomly choosing characters is also more than a little weird. It will have almost no in game effect since most battles are fought in range, randomly being better against some characters in challenges is extremely underwhelming. I also don´t think the DA have any interest in trying to interrogate Tau or Orks, although you could argue they would.

In addition to his existing Warlord Trait? What if you play a mission without maelstrom or linebreaker? Linebreaker is nice if you are playing Deathwing and/or Ravenwing, but even with that, it´s a single possible victory point and then the near useless random duelling advantage instead of getting 6+ FnP on all models and IWND on Dreds and Chars.

These tactics are extremely bad. Why would you ever use these except in order to gain access to Ravenwing and Deathwing? Did you intentionally make them bad because the RW and DW formations are OP in your opinion? Angry Pirate (talk) 04:21, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Black Templars

I've lately gotten hold of the BT codex of 'when they were good' and By T'Empra have they cratered hard. Consequently I believe it would be worth reintroducing their mechanical and flavorful differences.

To That End, some heavy revision suggestions and the justification. I am almost certain to go overboard with this in pursuit of the right flavor, so reduction/refinement is requested:

1. Templars cannot/should not take Devastators or Shooty Centurions, or any troop choice that isn't Crusader Squads, it's simply Their Thing. I'd contend they shouldn't even take non IC characters in their squads at all.

2. They should on one hand take serious penalties when fielded with psyker armies to the point of making it counter productive, and on t'other enough counter weight to make rushing headlong into the enemy without psychic cover survivable. SO -

Abhor the Witch!

• Black Templars become Come The Apocalypse allies with any army fielding a Psyker
• Armies consisting of solely Black Templars triple result of the random psychic dice for deny the witch attempts. Armies with Black Templars and another faction that does not include psykers double the random psychic dice.
• Black Templar Chaplains and The Emperor's Champion reduce the mastery level of psykers (friend or foe) by 1 to a minimum of 1 while within 6" of the model. This is not cumulative and affected psykers do not lose any known powers as a consequence. This effect does not apply if either model is embarked on a transport.
• If The Emperor's Champion causes an unsaved wound to a Psyker in a challenge, at the end of the combat phase that model resolves a Perils of the Warp result on itself.
• Black Templar Chaplains, The Emperor's Champion and Venerable Dreadnoughts may re-roll Deny The Witch attempts made for psychic abilities which affect their unit. You must keep the second result however.

3. Black Templar Castellans/Marshals, Chaplains, Cenobyte Servitors and Standard Bearers may purchase an Icon of Detestation for +15pts. This increases the psychic dice available for Deny the Witch attempts by 1, and would use the 'relic' item from the BT sprue without the connotations of being a Relic for rules purposes.

4. This was the defining characteristic of BT back in the day:

Righteous Zeal

• Whenever a Black Templar unit suffers casualties in the shooting phase they must take a leadership test at the end of the phase after any morale checks unless pinned or falling back. If successful, they must immediately make a run move towards the nearest enemy, or one of the enemies that caused a casualty (owning players choice) and gain the Counter Attack USR. Fearless units automatically pass this test.

5. The Emperor's Champion was a mandatory choice for the army over 750pts, and bought an upgrade which defined the rest of the army. This was Perfectly Fine. He was *not* a beat stick, nor does he need to be - The point of BT was, at least once, to spread the beatings around evenly, such as with the fabled hidden powerfist.

One Emperor's Champion must be taken if your primary detachment is the Black Templars Faction, but may not be your warlord.

The Emperor's Champion is the totemic manifestation of the crusader spirit of the Templars and as the final act before a deployment, leads the entire Templar host in a rite renewing and re-affirming a specific vow to The Emperor. This emphasises and magnifies some specific aspect of their conduct in warmaking.

Suffer not the unclean to live! +30pts

• During army list creation you may give any weapon with the Melee attribute that is not a Specialist Weapon, Unwieldy or a Relic/Relic Blade one of the following:
  • 'Smiting' +1 Strength, -1 Initiative (does not affect initiative tests)
  • 'Impaling' +1 str and the Two Handed USR
• Black Templar units within 6" of The Emperor's Champion gain +1 attack with the Hammer of Wrath USR.

Uphold the Honour of The Emperor +40pts + 3pts/ Infantry/Jump Infantry model

• No Black Templar Infantry or Jump Infantry model may benefit from cover saves. All Black Templar Infantry or Jump Infantry models have a 5+ FNP vs shooting attacks and +1 FNP against close combat attacks to a maximum of 4+.
• Black Templars within 6" of The Emperor's Champion improve any existing invulnerable save by 1, to a maximum of 4+.

Abhor the witch, Destroy the Witch +40, +10 for each Chaplain May not be taken if any psykers are included in your army.

• Enemy psykers within 12" of a Chaplain or The Emperor's Champion suffer -3 to Look Out Sir! rolls and -1 to Leadership. Charge or sweeping advance rolls made against units with these models by Black Templars may be rerolled.
• Whilst the Emperor's champion is alive, Black Templar units in your army have Preferred Enemy (Psykers). If the Emperor's Champion is killed by a psychic ability or a psyker model, all Black Templar models gain Rampage for the rest of the game.

Accept any challenge, no matter the odds + 40pts, +10 pts for each dreadnought, +3 pts/model for all non-vehicle models

• All Black Templar models gain the Rage USR. Dreadnoughts and non-vehicle units within 7" of an enemy unit may not shoot heavy, salvo or rapid fire weapons in the owning player's shooting phase and must attempt a charge in the assault phase. Any models that are prevented from shooting a weapon in this way gain an additional +1 attack on the turn they charge.
• Black Templar models within 12" of The Emperor's Champion have the preferred enemy USR in close combat. If the Emperor's Champion is slain in a challenge, all Black Templars increase their WS characteristic by 1 until the end of the next combat phase.

6. Holy Orb of Antioch - Relic Chaplains and Marshals/Castellans may buy the Holy Orb of Antioch 20 pts - 12" S1 AP 3 Assault 1, one use only, small blast, haywire, poisoned 2+

7. Crusader seals - may be purchased by any non-vehicle model except The Emperor's Champion +10 pts - Units containing a model with Crusader Seals consolidate an additional D3, and may reroll any dice used in run moves caused by Righteous Zeal

Response 1

• I don't really agree with many of your ideas.

1. So I tell every BT player with those models to more or less go fuck themselves for taking units which the current codex allowed (and still allows)? I agree that it was a mistake from GW to include them as part of the new Codex, an SoB dataslate would have been better. Even while using the powerful and incredibly out of place options the codex allows, the Black Templars remain IMO the weakest chapter. Cutting their flavour to make it easy to bring them closer to the strength of other Chapters was a bad idea. But. I will not outlaw army compositions that are legal in 7th edition (Mucolid Spore/Flyrant spam being another brilliant example of a couple of stupid choices). Please point out if I have done this, my more idealistic side (which agrees with banning BT Devastators and making Mucolid Spores Fast Attack choices) might have gotten the better of me at some points.

2. BTs are not blanks or pariahs. I don't think any of your anti-psychic ideas are good. As far as I remember the Black Templars have never had any such effect on psykers. I haven't read much into their lore (they are just one of the 10ish important chapters, not to mention the minor and fanmade ones), but I did read the rules of their most recent codex, do I need to go further back? I'd have to research a little more, but I don't think BTs flip their shit whenever they ally with someone using Psykers. They just don't use them themselves and it is only on the battlefield they don't use them. They still use them for communication and navigation. I think you are overexagerating their hatred of and effect on psykers.

3. I don't think that's a very elegant solution, how about a unique set of relics consisting mostly of anti-psycic stuff?

4. I don't like it to be honest, it's too complicated. What is the intention with the special rule? Making power armoured individuals super fast (beyond initiative) is something I like very little. Stuff like making a 2D6 move at the start of the game or making additional run moves to close the distance seem more fitting for Eldar than Space Marines.

6. Could fit as part of a new relic list. Where are the rules from?

7. See 2 and 3. Angry Pirate (talk) 00:00, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Rebuttal 1

This was all from the 2005 Black Templar codex. I would like to emphasise that the Templars were the anti-psyker army before psykers were particularly significant, and all their fluff up to the point of the Sternguard Era, was they were the true and original angry marines, with a unique hate-boner for psykers. However, they have fallen from grace, no doubt in part because they're a relic of a bygone game meta, where assault, and especially massed assault, was game ending. The modern SM codex in this era of 'yeah blood angels are totally cool with fighing alongside necrons' is if anything a happy and inclusive place compared to the balls out Hair Metal HATE (not just RAGE) of 4th ed fluff.

To your points:

1 Fair point, retracted - it's a bad situation that has to be accommodated I suppose.

2 They had in 4th an option of a "5+ to fuck you AND fuck your psychic power rule" which was universally unique because Deny the Witch hadn't been invented yet. This was at a stage when the worst thing you could get hit by in the realm of psychic powers was an AP3 auto-hit that caused a pinning test. Now, when a single psychic power can wipe out a unit, I'd suggest they need to scale with it. They were also immune to what were called 'minor psychic powers' which today we'd call Primaris powers - game breaking so would have to be adapted down. They also completely forbade using psykers at all as allies with the exception of pre-ward Grey Knights (which wouldn't be sanctioned now in the era of 'yeah our champion blatantly uses daemon weapons because he's just SO PURE'). To quote pg 8 of the flavor text "They lust to crush the enemies of mankind and profess absolutely no tolerance for heretics, mutants, warlocks, aliens or any other abomination against the Emperor. For this reason the Black Templars have no Librarians, their mistrust of the powers of the Warp extending to their own numbers, for no Black Templar would fight alongside a witch." and later "Exactly how these Crusades communicate with each other is uncertain, though it is speculated that the Black Templars make use of only such Navigators and Astropaths as have been sanctified by other organisations and are repentant of the curse of psychic powers".

3 When you say elegant are you meaning in mechanics or in the number of details to keep track of?

4 The intention of the rule was to provide an aggressive defence against pure gunline armies, and make footslogging a viable alternative. In practice, it was the Imperium's direct equivalent of a mob of Boyz, and were frequently fielded against such to the delight of all involved. As for super fast, there really isn't any in-game examples of what a superhuman sprinter can *do*, since guardsmen with a chap in a chimera shouting at them can get a reliably faster sprint than mechanically augmented superhumans.

6 & 7 4th ed BT armory - I think these were the single unique effect wargear option they had compared to vanilla marines

no issue with the Oaths? PSC Wintergreen (talk) 10:42, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Response 2

• 2. The power you suggested is still far bigger than what they had.

3. I don't like giving units new options depending on their chapter.

4. I think footslogging into CC against gunlines is already possible when assault squads are 23% cheaper than their official counterparts and when you have Eternal Crusade which can effectively allow you to avoid being shot entirely after you've reached the enemy line. If it is not enough and if Black Templars should have more speed I'd rather give them the Fleet special rule.

Suggestion: new (old) HQ unit called Castellan, basically an honour guard without Eternal Warrior as well as a new set of chapter tactics and 6 new relics focussed on anti-psyker stuff, assault and faith. Add CCW option to Crusader Squads because I missed it the first time around.

• Holy Crusades: Models with the Brotherhood of Psykers or Psyker special rules, Honour Guard Squads and Tactical Squads may not use the Black Templars chapter tactic. Models with the Black Templars chapter tactic have the Crusader special rule and gain the Zealot special rule in any turn in which they declare an assault.

• Vows of Faith: After generating Warlord Traits you must choose one of the following special rules to apply during the battle if your army includes an Emperor's Champion.

- Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch: Black Templars models treat models in a Detachment or Formation including a model with the Psyker or Brotherhood of Psykers special rule as Come the Apocalypse. Models with the Grey Knights faction are always treated as Allies of Convenience despite this special rule. Black Templars models gain the Adamantium Will special rule.

- Accept any Challenge, no Matter the Odds: Black Templars models which are able to attempt to assault must do so whenever possible. Black Templars models gain the Fleet special rule.

- Suffer not the Unclean to Live: Black Templars models fight at the Initiative step after their actual Initiative value, meaning Initiative 4 models fight at Initiative step 3. Models fighting with weapons with the Unwieldy special rule fight at Initiative step 1 as normal. Black Templars models gain the Furious Charge special rule.

- Uphold the Honour of the Emperor: Black Templars models do not gain cover saves from terrain pieces and destroyed or immobilized vehicles. Black Templars models gain a 6+ invulnerable save against shooting attacks.

Let me know how far off I am. I feel like I needed to nerf the vows to make them as bad as they are good. I don't know about the whole psyker thing, their hatred was mandatory, but their defence was only an option in 4th ed, this might be less potent, but so are the other vows. Angry Pirate (talk) 19:54, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Rebuttal 2

2 On the grounds that psychic is best employed as a force multiplier with the cost of unreliability, PotW and dedicated anti-psyker assets, an army that is entirely no-sell on the subject has to either amp up it's general power level ( probably through a dedicated force multiplier unit, e.g. the Emprah's Champion and perhaps with a slightly better than vanilla Chaplain) or have a means of countering the force multiplication - although stylistically and because the Culexus exists, this should be limited to debuffs or direct damage to themselves.

Adamantium Will is a non-starter in an army that has a cap of 1-6 psychic dice to deny with under normal circumstances. Allying in something is going to cost a minimum of 105 pts for an angry Librarian and a pack of scouts, which then introduces the shenanigans roll for Come The Apocalypse, and in some cases renders Adamantium Will redundant anyway with the Psychic hood.

Therefore; if AdWill is to be deemed Good Enough as it operates within the standard game structure, then at least allow some means to modify it directly since there's no other means of allaying psychic assaults. Allow rerolling DTW tests for units within X" of the EC and units containing a Chaplain perhaps?

3 On the grounds that it overcomplicates matters for non-represented assets on a standard model, or perhaps because there's enough to maintain with just adapting standard marines that you don't need to go adding more options?

4 A possible compromise built on my point in 2 presents itself; chapter wide fleet until their first charge, chaplains/EC grants fleet to attached BT units indefinitely.

Castellan - Slight corrections - Castellan was SM Captain, Marshal was SM Chapter master profiles respectively (Helbrecht is always The Big Cheese), Sword Bretheren are Honour Guard in all but name - could work with:

Sword Bretheren - Honour Guard as mentioned, may take: --Incense of The Throne: Reduce LD of psykers in CC by 2 (non cumulative) --Consecrated Decapitator: Two handed MC Poweraxes with 'may exchange attacks for 1 ID attack' If ID attack kills a psyker, causes the enemy unit to take d3 s6 ap2 hits --Holy Hand Grenade: as mentioned before -- I've some other ideas, but you're already suggesting that 'new stuff because Snowflake Chapter' is problematic so will leave at that

Holy Crusades - That feels right, but then Chaplains would need to be doing something more than granting Zealot. AW + PE in first CC perhaps?

• Vows of Faith:

That is exactly the way to do selection and frankly I wish i'd thought of it. Balance for drawbacks hits the original problem ,which is some of them just don't work without a mono-build, hence the points values.

Abhor the witch - Does this mean you're taking AdWill away as standard, since they have it already? If not, how about +1 free dice for each DTW attempt on BTs?

Accept any challenge - If we're going for army wide fleet on first attempt by default, then Rage would be better here, or alternatively Fleet for everybody always and Rage on first assault?

Suffer not - FC sounds a bit weak but I have a feeling the numbers will back it up

Honour Of The Emperor - This one was a problem back when, because Ignore Cover wasn't really a Thing and 6+ inv wasn't worth it. I'd suggest that with all the plasma, all the grav, and the existence of tau, 6+ isn't worth it. +1 inv on the other hand to 3+ max would be, even if it means you're sacrificing scrubs to make tac termies better. Any special reason 5+ FNP with no cover ever isn't acceptable?

Assault Squads - One thing I missed first time around, BT were unique in that basic ASM could swap their bolt pistols for actual storm shields, but could never take sergeants. This may be worth reviving as the BT Assault Squad unit instead of standard ASM.

Response 3

• 2. Units in a faction without access to psykers should not be more powerful in general than one with access to them. If you still think Deathstars are a problem then you should bring that up, because I don't really think so. I'm aware that most disciplines are bad, but I don't think the best ones are OP. The lack of the of the Librarius Conclave makes deathstars fair IMO. I might try to fix psychic powers at some point, but even the most powerful Angry Psyker is IMO not OP.

It is essentially a free option. If the option is to be no more good than it is bad then you can't get something much better than Adamantium Will when the downside will be a non-issue unless you go out of your way to sabotage yourself.

3. Because it doesn't fit the current layout of the codex. I also think it's unnecessary. It is also not something that can be used to represent anything in official games.

4. As I said I don't think Fleet is neccessary to make BTs worth it. Giving Chaplains that ability makes sense but it clashes with my suggestion for vows.

Helbrecht/Chapter Master = 4 Wounds, Marshal/Captain = 3 Wounds, Castellan = 2 Wounds. I'd argue that Sword Brethren are 1st Company and Castellans are Honour Guard equivalents. Sword Brethren had 1 Attack at WS 4 and a 3+ Sv, not a whole lot of Honour Guard to find there.

Unique and special relics are awesome, I just don't want new unit options listed in the chapter tactics section of the codex.

I was thinking of taking it away as standard. Alternatively BTs could keep it as standard and then have Abhor the Witch makes you match your opponent's psychic dice, so if they generate 15 dice you get 15 dice. But then Black Templars would very much be an anti-psyker army, which would mean cutting in some other area unless it was showed to me that the current tactic is suffeciently bad to warrant BTs hardcountering psychic spam armies.

Suffer not - it would be bad against certain armies, but power fists and power axes are unaffected. Against Eldar it would be good 90% of the time, these are not intended to give Black Templars a power boost.

Honour - again it's supposed to be weak, it's going to be bad for some but in some cases you will get a free 6+ invul. The reason it's an invul is because it's mystical, it's the Emperor doing the work not just BTs being crazy.

I think the old unit entry should be forgotten, it would require taking the storm shields from elsewhere and the models would be useless in official games. If you want Jump Infantry with storm shields you can go for Vanguard Veterans or Command Squads. Angry Pirate (talk) 18:58, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Rebuttal 3

2. Perhaps then the approach for BT should be more a replacement of the psyker mechanic with something more reliable but less powerful, which I guess the Oaths system covers. As for OP, i'd contest no - going straight for the math-hammer situation, any psyker that has access to telepathy's primaris has, without modifiers, a consistent median average of 2 AMeq kills a turn (3d6 -> 10.5~) *in cover* for < 65pts and without the drawback of being a heavy weapon or needing rolls to hit. There's some wiggle room in Biomancy's smite on the same lines.

3. Point withdrawn then

4. The contemporary honour guard (C:SM 2006) were a minimum 215pts for 5 doods (with 2 massively expensive sgt models), the actual honour guard models at the time being 30 pts each, which shook out to the basic marine, terminator honours for 10 pts - which they explicitely had - and a measly 4 points for a power weapon (which was appalling). Sword bretheren were more versatile because they got an option on Furious Charge or Tank hunters into their basic cost of 19/ea, and with the Termi honours for +1 attack, shook out to one point cheaper with the same profile. Now, Angry Honour guard are and should be a separate entity, and the concept of honour guard itself has moved on from that point (leaving BT behind) with the role being picked up by Van Vets (which is what I should have said instead of honour guard earlier) - but sword bretheren are fundamentally different from the concept of Vanguard veterans and conceptually closer to DA Inner Circle. Finally their functional distinction was the intentional absence of Sgts, which is potentially valuable in modern play.

5.Oaths

Abhor. The alternative looks viable I think, with a 'no other psykers in the army' rider. I'll try it asap

Suffer not. It would certainly make Lance Bikers an interesting option.

Honour. But hits the original problem with it, being it'll *never* be taken since anti marine goodies reliable counter is a chunk of rock to hide behind. The loss of cover, or more specifically, the loss of the ability to objective camp is significant, and while I'm not saying "give BT effectively a 4+ save in the open" 6++ isn't enough of a benefit for the tradeoff, even factoring in the benefit CC Scrubs would get from having *some* save when they otherwise would not vs powersword/eq. 5++ vs shooting would work perhaps, because it doesn't massively improve their survivability in their specialty area and doesn't improve their armour save to a 75~% effective, nor does it encourage monobuilds by dumping everything into tac termies for a 4++. As for Emprah's work, it's their faith in themselves and their own invulnerability (rather oddly - pg24) - the same thing that gives Grimaldus his pseudo immortality, albeit less honed.

PSC Wintergreen (talk) 11:53, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Units

Sicarian

• Does Accelerator cannon benefits from old version of Rending with AP2 against vehicles?

Also why it's named Sicarian?

• No, why would it?

You'll have to ask the designers at Forgeworld. - Pirate

Captains

Company Titles

• We have rules for Master of the Fleet, Master of the Arsenal, Lord Executioner, Master of the Relics, and Master of Recruits, so why are we missing the other five? Specifically, from the "standard" (Ultramarines) list, we are missing:
  • Regent
    • Varies even more than the other titles do from chapter to chapter, but basically the 1st Company Captain's honorific; the Ultramarines one rules Macragge, for example. Fluffy rules might include being able to choose your Warlord Trait, rather than roll for it.
  • Master of the Marches
    • Oversees deployment and logistics; fluffy rules might include Fast Attack and Heavy Support with Flyer and Transport being fieldable as Dedicated Transports.
  • Master of the Rites
    • Oversees rites and rituals; fluffy rules might include upgrading to Supreme Authority despite not being a Chapter Master.
  • Master of the Watch
    • In charge of the fortress-monastery; fluffy rules might include a free fortification, like the Master of the Arsenal gets.
  • Chief Victualler
    • Duties unknown, but conspicuously, the Master of the Recruits oversees training new recruits, so there is no listed Master overseeing actual recruitment (unless the Master of the Rites does this). Fluffy rules might include being able to take a unique Allied Detachment of Imperial Guard conscripts for free, and/or a free fortification to represent the training facility.

• Because I made 5 for Dark Eldar Archons, I felt it was okay to stop after 5 for Space Marines as well.

All the ideas except maybe the victualler are pretty good. Alternatively seeing as Rampage, LD for Scouts, more Relic patterns and re-rolls on reserves are good for most chapters, each chapter could have some number of their own so that their unique titles are also displayed?

I'm probably going to be making about 5 Warlord traits options for each character so the regent option might a less good idea if I ever implement that.

Not sure if this is where the discussion belongs, but I have effectively made 1st company armies belong in unbound games, I'm not sure whether or not this is the right choice since I'm still allowing Grey Knights and Dark Angels to make Terminator armies. One option for 1st company captains is making veterans and termies troops, as well as some other minor ability. Angry Pirate (talk) 09:51, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

Chapter Masters

Named Chapter Masters

• I think it would make sense that every Chapter Master had Orbital Bombardment wouldn´t it?

• It does, but Lias Issodon is, and will still be the only chapter master in the game who doesn't have it. This is mostly to do with him being the Sneekiest cheekiest beeki. It's mostly for fluff reasons that he doesn't have one, since Orbital Bombardments and Gigantic Glowing Halos would interfere with his ability to be big boss in power armour. He also doesn't have a halo either, instead having shrouded.

I'm also going to later add in the other named chapter masters as I get around to them.Evilexecutive (talk) 21:43, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• That makes sense, as long as most everyone has it I´m fine. I just found it weird that a lot of special characters lack it. Although it would be great if you could add the named characters. Is it unreasonable to ask that all SM characters have the same statline? - Pirate

• A few will vary somewhat to an extent. I'll go ahead and add in some named characters when I get home from my gaming this Woden's day. Right now I'm thinking of going ahead and increasing the points cost and statline of Tyberos the Red Wake to that of a Chapter Master.. Because he's the Chapter master of the Space Sharks. Evilexecutive (talk) 06:50, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

• I would prefer if we could keep the changes to special rules and equipment and leave the stat line of all characters to either that of a Chapter Master or that of Captain.

Tyberos being Chapter Master is debatable, in the first version of his rules and in the book he is described more like a captain. His most recent rules made him a Chapter Master but I don´t really agree with that change. Angry Pirate (talk) 10:02, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Chief Librarian Entry

Is this entry meant to allow chapters other than Ultramarines to take Tigerius? Is it to access a mastery level 3 psyker or because of the special rules, because if it is the former then I don´t think this is the right way to go about it.

Being away from a codex at the time, I didn't have a particular mechanical reason. More that there really is no reason for the unit to be UM-only. It could probably be modified to act as an upgrade to the regular libby.--Asorel (talk) 11:22, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

But Tigerius isn´t just +1 Mastery Level, he has a host of special rules. Do you want every chapter to have access to the special character Tigerius? Or do you want every chapter to have access to a Mastery level 3 psyker?

I could go either way. If we want the character to be more generic, I'd suggest reducing the points cost, dropping the MoP special rule, and making Malcador's Rod an optional relic purchase.--Asorel (talk) 22:43, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Centurions

Centurions as Monstrous Creatures

This means Cents have Relentless instead of SnP. For DevCents and Overwatch, this is a non-trivial buff.--Asorel (talk) 19:22, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

As a Buff, it means Centurions have a valid point to taking them instead of Devastators. Previously the only real advantage of taking centurions over devastators was the access to Grav-cannons, but as of 7th edition the Devastator Squads gained access to Grav-cannons. Since the Devastator squads could have taken Rhinos and Ablative wounds(One's that aren't useless either, mind you), cents weren't worth it. Evilexecutive (talk) 20:42, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I'm aware of the consequences of making them Monstrous Creatures, but it does have a largely different set of balancing to it. And besides, it'll at least make Monster Hunter finally useful against Space Marines.Evilexecutive (talk) 20:42, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Honour Guard

HGs power level

Is the current HG profile too powerful? - Angry Pirate

Chapter Master + HG as one Lord of War choice

I don´t think a Chapter Master should be able to be included as part of 1 LOW choice along with a unit of honour guard. It´s a lot of points in very few models, It´s cool if you want to take them both, but forcing people to include 4 Troops rather than 2 is not a bad idea I think. It weighs up the fact that you spent 390-640 points on 6-11 models. You might argue you could include 3 land raiders (6 including termies taking them as transports), which I geuss would be fair. Now I´m starting to wonder if Land Raiders should also be LOW... - Angry Pirate

Land Raiders should definitely not be Lords of War. That slot's reserved for superheavy monstrosities like Fellblades and Titans. Besides, it's not like LRs are crazy OP; they only have 4 HP and explode on a lucky melta shot. I'll take another look when I have a screen larger than a few inches, but I think HG are fine as written.--Asorel (talk) 19:30, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Looking again, the issue I see with Honor Guard is that there's little reason to take them over Terminator Assault Squads. You could argue that you can take more than one terminator squad, but the efficacy of assault deathstars means one has little incentive to take more than one squad. In the original codex, Honor Guard were more points-efficient, and had a bit more offensive potential (from Chapter Banner extra attacks), but lacked the invuln save and varied armory of terminators, leading to something resembling balance between the two, though HG have the edge in lower point games. Honestly, I think HG could be left more or less as they are, with the buff given to Terminator Armor being enough to make them a viable choice.--Asorel (talk) 23:40, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Should the CM even be LoW? It's a slot meant for behemoth vehicles. I think it would make more sense to keep all named characters in the HQ slot, Calgar included. Just prevent players from taking more than one Chapter Master.--Asorel (talk) 20:46, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

TL;DR: Titans belong in apocalypse, CM belongs in LOW. The LOW slot is for exactly what we put in it. We could put all Fast Attack chocies into Heavy Support and vice versa, nothing would happen. The ultimate character of each race started becoming a LOW quite a while ago. The only difference it makes is that you cannot take a CM to lead an Allied Detachment, which I think is totally reasonable and that you can bring an additional HQ in a CAD. SM do not have access to other LsOW. CM are supposed to be something special IMO, they are more than just another warrior or a brilliant tactician. They are demigods of war, I think they deserve the LOW title entirely. If your group has banned LOW, you can simply make an exception for Infantry characters. You say that Felblades and Titans are the only choices which deserve the title of LOW, I disagree. You shouldn´t be able to bring a scout titan along with only 2 Troops choices and an HQ choice. A Knight? Sure. I feel that anything with more than 6 Hull Points on the other hand is over the top, maybe the Fellblade is okay in a normal game, but a scout titan is not. I feel like it´s too big. LOW choices are not apocalypse choices, they are the biggest things you can bring to a normal game. Meaning something which fits inside a 2000 or less points army. Behemoth vehicles belong in apocalypse where people are more likely to have the firepower to be able to bring one down.

HQ Stats

• I have noticed that Sternguards & Vanguard Vets have a WS & BS of 5. So, how come the Chaplains, Librarians, & Techmarines have either a WS or BS of 4? To signify that they are HQ, should they not have at least WS6, & BS5 to signify that they are of a higher skill level than any Chapter Veterans?

• I didn´t notice, I think WS 6 is a bit too much for Librarians so I kept that at 5 and increased both the WS and BS of Chaplains and Chief Librarians by 1. I´m not sure what I was thinking, sometimes thinking goes out the window when I´m making monotonous work. Thanks for pointing it out. - Angry Pirate

The Emperor's Champion

• Three issues here. First of all, the Champion has S 8 natively, which becomes S 10 in melee because of the Black Blade. That simply does not fly - S 5/T 5 could work, but not S 8. Second, his Armor of Faith gives an 2++ at all times... I'll just let that one sink in. Third, the special ability of Armor of Faith is to re-roll their ARMOR save. So can never re-roll anything, because the Armor of Faith doesn't have an Armor save. I see the intent here, but you can't just make a model "wowzers so awsum" because the fluff describes the Champion as being guided by the Emperor.

I suggest just leaving him at S/T 4, but giving him a Special rule like this:

Emperor's Judgement: Once per combat, the Emperor's Champion can exchange all attacks for a single Instant Death, S 10, I 10 attack with the Black Blade. Succesful Invulnerability saves, Feel No Pain rolls and other, additional die rolls that could save this hit must be re-rolled.

- Dane.

• Why not? TH SS is Strength 8 (10 if you are on a Thunder Wolf).

He isn´t an Independent Character... Just let that sink in. He might still be slightly OP, but not being an Independent Character is what IMO makes him if not entirely fair then at least not entirely OP. He´s pretty damn tuff, but his damage output is somewhat laughable against non-elite units. He basically needs to solo ride a Storm Raven or LR to be optimal. At that point you might as well take a unit of Termies.

Sure you can, a 3+ re-rollable is better than a 2+. 8/9 vs 5/6 wounds are saved. It never says you must take the one with the lowest value, just the best and 3+ re-rollable is better when it´s available. Angry Pirate (talk) 07:56, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

• Problem is that that S 8 comes from a weapon, the Thunder Hammer; the Emperor's Champion has it on his profile for no goddamn reason at all. He already get a +2 AP 2 Mastercrafted Murdersword, why need S 8? It honestly feels like a typo; it makes him fukken S 10 in melee!

The real deal here is the fact that he seems to be written as a sort of "animu superhero" style character, what with the lack of IC and that 2++ save, which would be okay if that was the Champoins' fluff - Except it isn't. The Champion is just a Black Templar who gets inspired to fight by the Emperor's visions, and is given a Black Blade and a suit of ornate Power Armor. He's not Superman; he's just a very good duelist (which is in his WS 10 and the Blade itself).

On the "The Chosen One" rule; the rules says he can re-roll armor saves. The Armor of Faith only gives a 2++, and no armor save. As such, The Chosen One does nothing.

I say, give him IC and propably an additional wound, remove The Chosen One and give Armor of Faith 2+/5++, and at last add the Emperor's Judgement USR I wrote up top. Less animu, more champion crusader. -Dane.

• "From that moment on he uses his nice new set of armour and blade to smack around enemy characters." no wait, that wasn´t in the codex here it is: "From that moment on, the Emperor´s Champion becomes a holy destroyer, a miraculous figure through whose veins the strength of the Emperor flows."

I admit it, I like anime, I´ve watched anime. A lot. But given 4chan´s background it really shouldn´t come as a surprise. Now the question is whether or not the emperor´s champion is super saiyan or a self righteous BT so high on his own ego he started seeing visions of the emperor. While the old fluff for the Emperor´s Champion fits perfectly the latter, the (abeit extremely short snippet of) fluff he has now IMO fits better with a super saiyan than a Chapter Champion who has run away from his HG squad. The Emperor´s Champion is just a boring choice if that´s all he is, a Captain who has given up on ordering people around and instead likes to fight the BBEG. If you want a good duelist you can just take an HG Squad or a Captain. But I´m geussing the issue you have is that it´s fluff rape not that you actually want that option. I just don´t

In his profile it says Sv 3+. You don´t need wargear to tell you that you have an armour save, it´s redundant when it´s already in your profile.

How about Emperor´s Judgement nu jutsu instead? Maybe he should have instant transmission as well, and/or a bankai. Angry Pirate (talk) 14:18, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

• Don't you make fun of me, I'm just trying to help here. At least it's not I-Don't-Want-My-Snowflake-To-Die-While-He's-Walking-Around-In-the-Open 2++/, with the I-Believe-In-My-Emperor-Who-Believes-In-Me-So-I-Get-As-Strong-As-A-Wraithknight S 8.

Anyway, I think the big problem right now that the guy doesn't have his own role to fill - Up until now he's nothing but a very, very good duelist, but what do we want him to be? The Sagnuinor? (Who, I might add, has S/T 4, despite being an actual angel), or is it something like a MC killer? Guided missile? HQ killer?

What about making him a somewhat good duelist in general, but when he hits the unit/model he chose as his "target of retribution" or something, his Armor turns 2++, rerollable 3+, he gains Eternal Warrior, S D, Instant Death, I 10, succesful saves must be re-rolled, models with Instant Death must take a Ld check or lose it each turn, all that jazz, full Animu? I think that would be cool, like an even more dangerous MURDER SWORD. Of course, he would be an IC, but throwing him around alone seems... I dunno, weird. - Dane

• Should I change the name from the chosen one to plot armour? Or is the armour of faith which should be called plot armour? I think of it sort of like psychic influence, the Emperor´s Champion channels the BT´s belief in the god emperor and grows stronger as a result. I haven´t played with the current rules, but I think the current rules represent the current fluff and are far more fun and unique than anything else.

The Sanguinor is just an inspiring bird with supreme abs or perhabs inspiring because of his supremely golden shiny abs, unlike the Champion who is empowered by the might of the GEoM. It´s kind of like the difference between Angel and Hulk, one is gonna SMASH the other. I´m not entirely sure of what he should be good at, the original is just sort of lame IMO, hardly worth his own entry. What I remade him as is an anti-elite unit with a focus of killing any characters in his enemy´s unit.

I know it´s weird, but making him explode a chosen enemy model/unit isn´t really what I get from his fluff, neither the old nor the new. I chose to ignore the old fluff and look at the new fluff extremely generously because I feel that´s what makes the most interesting model. Again if you just want a duelist you might as well just get a Captain.

I´ll do a BT game with him next time I get a chance. I can see where you are coming from, especially when I´ve made SM stubborn instead of ATSKNF focusing on their human side and then I give the the Emperor´s Champion S 8, it just seems fun and different to me. Angry Pirate (talk) 15:40, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

• It sure is different, and honestly, I'm not entirely against that kind of rule-creation; problem is, when you begin to pile in rules like that for the sake of awesome, the rules become biased. Just take what you said about the Sanguinor: Some golden bird? He might be the motherfucking reincarnation of Sanguinius himself! He could easily be given Daemon Prince-like rules, but yet they don't, because, you know, he gotta be balanced.

Is it boring to make the Champion a great duelist? Sure, but that has nothing to do with him, but with there being WAY too fucking many Space Marine Special Models, and pretty much all of them are geared as close combat killers, regardless of that being their shtick. For example, Cato Sicarius is a duelist in rules and fluff, but there are a lot of other models that are better in Challenges than him. That's what makes the Champion boring: He's in an oversaturated spot, and his entire thing is to challenge and kill things for the Emprah.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I think we need a third party, NON BLACK TEMPLAR, non Space Marine fan to look at this, because if we allow ourselves to make our favourite factions OP (like I'm doing with the Orks right now), We're gonna have some problems. Who can we call in? TheWiseDane (talk) 15:52, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

• I don´t play BT, in fact I´m a BA fan, the golden bird thing was a joke. Sanguinor: "His skills in battle are devastating" vs. Champion: "the Emperor’s Champion becomes a holy destroyer, a miraculous figure through whose veins the strength of the Emperor flows". The Sanguinor´s main theme is hope while the Champion´s theme is power. The Sanguinor could be a LoW... Oh shit, Now I want to give him S/T 6, god. Haha. Anyways... What do you mean with balanced, balance is something that is decided by effect on the table vs. cost in the army list. I don´t believe the Champion to be OP because of his relatively low amount of attacks, which is why I think he needs to be tested.

Cato is great at duelling, as long as his foe doesn´t have the dreaded TH SS combo. He´s likely to lop the head off an Ork Warlord before the Warlord get´s to strike, but again Instant Death is a bitch. Sicarius is also a great strategist on the side, so he´s still doing stuff even if he can´t challenge the enemy Warlord armed with a S 8+ weapon.

No one from my gaming group is on FB so the change will have to wait until after the test or if you can convince me in some other way. Angry Pirate (talk) 16:53, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

• Just going to deposit my version of the Emperor´s Champion here for when I´m going to test him, if I ever get around to it.

The Emperor´s Champion

	Pts	WS	BS	S	T	W	I	A	Ld	Sv	Unit Type	Composition
The Emperor´s Champion	180	10	5	8	4	2	5	4	10	3+	Infantry (Character)	1 Unique

Wargear:

• Bolt pistol
• Frag grenades
• Krak grenades
• Black Sword

Range	S	AP	Type
-	+2	2	Melee, Master-crafted, Two-handed

• Armour of Faith

The Armour of Faith confers a 2+ invulnerable save.

Special Rules

• Fearless
• Chapter Tactics (Black Templars)
• Eternal Warrior
• The Chosen One: The Emperor´s Champion may re-roll failed armour saves.
• Honour or Death A model with this special rule must issue and accept a challenge whenever possible. If there is more than one friendly model in a combat with this rule, you may select which model issues or accepts the challenge.

Angry Pirate (talk) 22:30, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

VULKAN

• Has his reintroduction been confirmed yet? He may or may not be wearing his equipment, seeing as grandpappa smurf got a fancy new suit. He might even have become a Daemon Prince, who knows? I'd rather not write rules for him given the circumstances. The 40k writers might even decide to make Primarchs T 5 which I wouldn't neccessarily disagree with, on one hand I've made the generic Marine less awesome, on the other hand I've made the bosses more awesome. Angry Pirate (talk) 16:43, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

Weapons

Plasma Weaponry

AP 3 plasma

Terminator armour is supposed to have originated as a protective suit when working inside plasma generators. Their ap also made them good against a huge amount of different things. Ap 3 means they are a bit more of a niche weapon. - Angry Pirate

With grav being used so often in its place already, I'd say plasma is rather niche as it is; this would make them an even more rare sight on the battlefield. Also, Gets Hot seems like a high price to pay for AP3. Sterngaurd get away with it because of their versatility.--Asorel (talk) 14:40, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Grav has been nerfed though, would you not ever consider taking plasma over grav as is? I mean it has been mainstay with the Astra Militarum for a while now, plasma is also widely used among other armies which don´t have access to grav. - Angry Pirate

You make good points, though I would argue making the dedicated MEQ-killing special weapon the same price as the dedicated TEQ-killing weapon while still having the drawback of Gets Hot is still not the best balancing. I'd reduce plasma guns to 10 points.--Asorel (talk) 18:51, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

I think a point reduction is in order, considering the nerf. - Angry Pirate

Turn the problem on its head; make terminator armour reduce the AP value of a non D shooting weapon by 1 - this keeps plasma in its general purpose role, preserves the fluff around terminator armour, and keeps dedicated *ship destroying equipment* such as melta cutters and so forth a threat to them. PSC Wintergreen (talk) 21:13, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Plasma Cannon

I ported over the profile I had made from Angry CSM. Why should it no longer be a blast weapon? - Angry Pirate

The reason they were considered mediocre previously is because Blasts can't be fired as snap shots. This is irrelevant if you make them Salvo, but I refrained from placing that quality on too many weapons so that there would be more differentiation.--Asorel (talk) 14:32, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

The question is whether we think it should be impossible, easy or hard to fire them while moving, I don´t really think you can overuse a quality, consider how many rapid-fire and assault weapons you field in a game. No need to make salvo a royalty quality. I think they should be usable while moving, I think we should be able to agree assault isn´t right for it, I´m also kind of tired of units being forced to snap fire and then just firing at flyers because, why not? I think this profile sets it apart as an anti-marine type weapon with the option of firing at light vehicles and monsters. While grav is more dedicated to destroying armoured monsters and terminators. We have to remember that grav has been heavily nerfed, while the plasma cannon has doubled its number of shots. - Angry Pirate

I wasn't aware of the lascannon change. If the intention is to modify all weapons in the manner of the CSM codex, those profiles should be listed on this article. On the subject of the modified weapon types, would you explaining the removal of the SR from meltaguns? Is Armorbane that much of an issue? I ask because I haven't had the opportunity to run the numbers.--Asorel (talk) 18:56, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Armourbane is an issue because it´s good against everything. Its strength is high enough that it penetrates armour 14 almost as easily as armour 12, this is a problem because AV 14 vehicles usually pay a high price for this AV. Meltaguns are just good against all vehicles, which I find problematic because it devalues AV 14. The old las cannon had a 16% chance of penetrating AV 14 and a 50% chance of penetrating AV 12 or 3 times higher. Melta had a 58% of penetrating AV 14 and 83% chance of penetrating AV 12 or 1,4 times higher chance of penetrating. So is an armour 14 vehicle worth 3 times as much or 1,4 times as much as an armour 12 vehicle? Meltas were cheap enough to be very good against low AV vehicles, but had the side bonus of being fairly good against AV 14. - Angry Pirate

Dakkamander?

• So, if I'm reading this right, a Captain in a Centurion Suit can fire at effectively BS10 with 5 Heavy Bolter shots, and 12 regular bolter shots? How does his Bolter mastery rule work with Hurricane Bolters, which are 3 twin-linked bolters? Does it add +2 shots per TL-bolter?

Because if so, that's absolutely hilarious that a Dakka-captain like this could pump out the full ranged output of an entire tactical squad. Which is even better when you realize that a Raptors Dakkamander could then put out 9 Rending Bolter shots fired from his nipples with 100% accuracy.

I really want to do a game now with this, just sticking a Raptors Dakkamander in with a squad of Sternguard veterans to put out a truly terrifying salvo of dakka. Then augment it with command orders(Ensuring you have a banner in said squad for a 100% chance to get off your LD10 rerollable orders), to give the squad your choice of Tank Hunters, Split-fire(So your dakkamander can threaten a second squad), or Monster Hunter to put the fear of god into tyranids? Evilexecutive (talk) 06:09, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

• That honestly wasn´t my intention. I didn´t add the Centurion option for the Captain. All that said, I don´t mind it, not in the least, it makes perfect sense that a Captain can be made to output a lot of dakka, the price just has to follow.

I´m planning on making the hurricane bolter twin-linked Salvo 3/6. So it would be 8 shots from the hurricane and 5 from the Heavy Bolter.

Where do you see BS 10? Angry Pirate (talk) 10:05, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

All centurion weapons are Twin-linked, except the Grav-cannon. BS5 twin-linked is completely equivalent to BS10. Evilexecutive (talk) 15:18, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Storm Bolter "Double Tap" & S. Ammo

• To IMPROVE the Storm Bolter over the Combi-Bolter (like in the fluff), I was thinking of introducing two rules. One is Double Tap. To represent the Storm Bolter firing bolts from both of its barrels at the same time, I was thinking of increasing its Strength to 5. And I also want to increase its AP to 3 if it rolls a 6 to Wound. Basically, it is just like Bladestorm from the Guardian's Shuriken Catapult. I was also thinking about giving SBs the chance to purchase Special Ammo for each ammo the player wants.

What does everyone think? Does this make the SB OP? Or are these proposed changes just right?

• It´s already stronger than a combi-bolter.

	Range	S	AP	Type
Combi-bolter #1	24"	4	5	Rapid Fire, Shred, Rending, Twin-linked
Storm bolter #2	24"	4	5	Salvo 2/4
Proposed Storm bolter #3	24"	5	5	Salvo 2/4, Psuedo Rending
Proposed Storm bolter #4	24"	5	5	Assault 2, Psuedo Rending

#3 is too much. A storm bolter already deals quite a lot of damage, as far as I know nobody has even tried shooty Termies, I have little reason to believe they need that much more firepower. #4 isn´t a bad idea, but I don´t really think it´s needed.

Special ammunition is a good idea. Angry Pirate (talk) 09:16, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

Crozius Arcanum

• What is the best way to represent that a Crozuis is a better Power Maul? Will it be more balanced if the AP is increased to AP3? Or will it best to just make a Crozius MC instead?

• MC=? Monstrous Creature? Angry Pirate (talk) 06:08, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

• MC in this is referring to Mastercrafted. Normally the Crozius is just a fancier version of the Power Maul. Evil Executive, CEO of Evil Incorporated (talk) 19:18, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

• I don´t see how that is neccessary. In neither of the wikis nor in the codex does it say the weapon is more powerful or better crafted than any old power mace, it just looks a little fancier. It´s more of a fluff bit, which I suppose I could remove as the angry dexes are all about the crunch. The weapon describes the deeds of the Chaplain and it doesn´t seem to be a kind of thing that gets passed on. It´s a relic as an effect of being carried by a Chaplain, it isn´t a relic that is carried. If you know what I mean? Angry Pirate (talk) 20:00, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
• They're not just power mauls - they're a symbol of faith, which usually has special rules in 40k. If you wanted, you could rearrange the Zealot USR granted by Chaplains from being on the model to being on their equipment, tying fluff and crunch together, and also serving as a convenient excuse for *not* granting Chaplains the War Hymns abilities Priests have. For example, you could do this for two most iconic pieces of Chaplain wargear:

Crozius Arcanum

This is a Power Maul which grants Fearless.

Death Helm

This helmet grants Hatred.

38.126.110.9 16:58, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

• People can just read the codex if they want fluff, we're not in the business of fluff. Zealot is the simplest way of doing it.

Do you become a chaplain because you wear the gear, or do you wear the gear because you are a chaplain. I believe the latter to be true. The pope hat is nice, could be called a relic because it is borne by a signifigant religious figure, but it is not the hat that makes the pope, it is the pope that makes the hat. - Pirate

Armoury

Combat/Storm Shield

• Something about these things, and other, similar shields, feel like they need to change. They're functional, but I dislike how Shields aren't an addition to the strengths of the model (so adding a Storm Shield to a model with an Iron Halo, for example, completely overrides the Halo, and probably the Power Armor as well), but simply gives an Invul. Save. It's cool that Iron Halos and Rosarii gives those, because they are exclusive high-end pieces of equipment, not sort of standard elite gear.

One way you could change would be to make them reduce incoming hits S by 1, and increase AP by one. So, for example, a Bolter becomes S 3 AP 6, Autocannons S 6 AP 5 and Melta S 7 AP 2 (so stille pierces them, but doesn't insta-death). Storm Shields and their equivalents (Dispersion Shields, Slapshields and such) works in both melee and at range, while Combat Shields and equivalents only works in melee.

I think it would make them more of a tactical choice than just an Invul. Save and add to the ways you can use a unit. TheWiseDane (talk) 21:35, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

• The same could be said for all saves, you should be able to take a cover save, then an armour save and finally any number of different invulnerable saves. But in game terms the fact that you can only take a single save means invulnerable saves have a far smaller impact. While you might think going from a 4+ to 3+ is a small increase, it effectively changes a Captain´s number of effective wounds from 6 to 9 against AP 2 wounds. A 50% increase is quite significant.

I don´t think changing them is a good idea, a high armour save means you only have to grab cover when your opponent has high ap weaponry, an invul save means you can stick your often pricy models into the line of fire without getting shot to pieces. Shields being the only piece of protective wargear that stacks with other saves doesn't make much sense to me.

While the rules are simple, your suggestion has a very complicated set of effects, which I don´t think is very good. Melta weaponry would be insanely good against your TH SS Termies in comparison to other weaponry. Assuming it would still be an upgrade that costs points you would be making yourself even more susceptible to melta than if you were to not take it. Angry Pirate (talk) 11:17, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

• I agree with the point about cover saves; the game is fundamentally designed around multiple saves overlapping rather than stacking. All of us could make up house rules that could be fun to try - I personally like changing BS from hitting all targets with the same probability to making it a comparison vs cover like strength is compared to toughness, with a "default" cover of 3 and never having the comparison get worse than 6+, which also lets you play around with making targets which are farther away harder to hit and larger targets easier to hit - but that's really beyond the scope of this codex, I think, and pretty far removed from the underlying game.

That said, we DO have precedence for saves stacking (which is how most cover works, such as stealth and shroud stacking), and for shields providing stacking saves, particularly Bullgryn Slabshields (+1 to user's armor when b2b with someone else with the same, +1 to cover of anyone behind), and Deathwing Knights employ a similar mechanic of +1 T when b2b. We also have precedence in Cataphractii Armour for wargear to specifically improve interactions with other, otherwise redundant pieces of wargear. I think the obvious go-to for anything shield-shaped is improving the wielder's defense, which at ranged would mean providing a cover save, which is rather redundant with an invuln save, and in melee would mean counting the wielder's WS as X higher for the purposes of being hit but not for hitting. You could also intrinsically count a combat shield as a CCW and/or specialist CCW to add to its tactical flexibility. If you wanted something Cataphractii style, you could add the Cataphractii re-roll rule to all equipment adding a 4+ or better invulnerable save, so Iron Halo + Storm Shield would also give you rerolling 1s.

• You're right about it not being within the scope of the Angry Initiative, it was actually kind of part of the challenge. Many people complain about the core game and it's problems. Like bad and unclear writing, Flyers and Gargantuan Creatures but I believe that beyond problems of the game being a horrible simulation the core rulebook can still be used as the base of a great game.

I'm involved in potential rewrite of the entire ruleset with the focus being on making a more simulationist game, although I am not sure if it's going anywhere. The problem with it is that the 40k universe wouldn't look like what it does if it followed the laws of our universe. Making a ruleset that makes the universe of 40k make more sense is argueably better than making a simulation of our world. Like Space Marines wearing bright colours and marching into the enemy line of fire makes more sense if they can't make full use of cover.

Generic Chapter Tactics Prototype

• Alright, so looking at the page right now, and I'm kind of dissappointed by how freakishly huge the Chapter Tactics section has gotten. I'm honestly thinking that we should totally and completely revamp Chapter Tactics so that it's more friendly for people who just want to make their own chapter. So here's what I'm proposing: Evil Executive, CEO of Evil Incorporated (talk) 06:47, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

• What about special characters? What should happen to someone like Ahazra Redth of the Mantis Warriors?

On top of that balancing will guaranteed be a mess and testing will be nigh impossible. Options are good and this is something GW could do because they don´t give two shits about balance, but while they may seem unbalanced now, the goal is that all chapter tactics should be viable and non should be OP. This is hardly achievable since there will be obvious combos which are better than others. Why would anti-daemon special rules go together with leadership? I bet most people don´t use allies so they might as well take the excomunicates traitoris to get another buff.

What you would need to do is assign a value to each special rule, but that would be a much bigger mess than what currently is. Angry Pirate (talk) 08:19, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

• Chapter Tactics

All Space Marine Chapters follow a mutable set of tactics that define their combat style. Some choose to become consummate masters of some aspects of the bolter, while others become masters of armoured warfare. Before you start creating your army lists, first note down the name of your Chapter, and then select either Two, or Three abilities from the list below.

If you choose three Chapter Abilities, you must also take a single Chapter Disadvantage.

Chapter Advantages

• Legendary Marksmen

• Tactical Operations

• Reckless Courage

• Bolter Drill

• Empyrean Anathema(Requires Disadvantage: Psychic Abomination)

• The Flesh Is Weak

• Machine Empathy

• Shadow Killers

• Children of Prophecy

Chapter Disadvantages

• Psychic Abomination

• Malicious Allegiance: Ally as Desperate Allies with all Armies Of The Imperium

• Excommunicate Traitoris: Ally as Come The Apocalypse with all Armies Of The Imperium

Right now what this needs to have is a full and complete list of all possible advantages and disadvantages for the Chapter Tactics. While I also propose keeping the "Canon Chapters" to an immutable set of tactics.

• Here is the Angry Pirate's version. The problem of weaknessses never having to have an effect persists. The only time this would work is for a campaign where you can't just change your chapter tactic every time you change your army list.

Major Advantages

• The Flesh is Weak - 8 strength

Non-vehicle models with this Chapter Tactic have the Feel No Pain (6+) special rule. If they have the Feel No Pain rule from another source (a narthecium, for example), they instead add 1 to the result of any Feel No Pain rolls.

• Furious Charge - 8 strength
• Tank Hunters - 8 strength

Advantageges

• Rage - 4 strength
• Heat of Stars - 4 strength

Plasma weapons fired by models with this Chapter Tactic have the Shred special rule.

Minor Advantages

• Trusty Sidearm - 2 strength

All pistols fired by models with this Chapter Tactic have the Master-crafted special rule.

• Crusader - 2 strength
• Adamantium Will - 2 strength
• Machine Empathy Models with this Chapter Tactic add 1 to their Blessing of the Omnissiah rolls.
• Endurance of Heroes - 2 strength

All Characters and vehicles with this Chapter Tactic have the It Will Not Die special rule. Note that this only benefits models with the Chapter Tactics special rule.

Insignifigant Disadvantages

• Lost Command - 1 weakness

Honour Guard Squads and Chapter Masters may not have this Chapter Tactic.

• Lost Librarius - 1 weakness

Librarians and Chief Librarians may not have this Chapter Tactic.

• Lost Apothecarion - 1 weakness

Apothecaries and Masters of the Apothecarion may not have this Chapter Tactic.

• Lost Reclusiam - 1 weakness

Chaplains and Masters of Sanctity may not have this Chapter Tactic.

• Strained Relationships - 1 weakness

Models with this Chapter Tactic treat armies of the Imperium as Desperate Allies.

Minor Disadvantages

• Excommunicate Traitoris - 2 weakness

Models with this Chapter Tactic treat armies of the Imperium as Sworn Enemies.

• Lost First Company - 2 weakness

Vanguard Veterans, Sternguard Veterans and Terminators may not have this Chapter Tactic.

Disadvantages

• Lost Armoury - 4 weakness

Techmarines, Masters of the Forge, Servitors, Decimators, Eliminators and Vehicles with one or more facings with an Armour Value above 11 may not have this Chapter Tactic.