Talk:Codex - Thousand Sons

OK, does anyone read it? I really need a feedback. I, know, guys, you can produce good ideas. Feel fry to criticize anything or to make suggestions. Some kind enough could even fix my shitty grammar.Mezmerro (talk) 16:46, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

8th ed

so any plans to port this to 8th ed? or are you waiting for the ts dex?

Critique and such

Well first of all this is a rather impressive little piece of fandex writing you got here but i still have my fair share of complaints. First and foremost is that i find you troop section a bit lacking, you could have at least had Cultist in there and on top of that it wouldn't hurt to see things like Tzangor and Thrall wizards in there.

• Well, I thought about SpireGuard Auxilary force with all of these things as TS-exclusive BB-allied army. Like IG, but without Mech squardons and with more magic

The same can be said for you HQ section simple things like Thousand sons warpsmiths (the pyrae were in with the machine cult anyway)or perhaps some kind of HQ to rpresent the sneakier Hiddenn ones, in fact it would just generally nice to see the Hidden Ones figure into your work somewhat.

• Pyrae Technomancers are actually a good idea, thanks. About Hidden Ones, I don, even know who they are. Can you give me a link?
  • There you go http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Hidden_Ones#.UfqV-pKNt8E, basically the hidden ones are hard core veteran scouts and spies, no info exists about them after the heresy so you can go nuts with what they do.
    • That's interesting. It could be qiute interesting infiltrator/outflank unit. Maybe in fast attack.
      • Here is how i made them in my own attempt at a Thousand Sons codex http://justpaste.it/3a1t (I'm so stealing your spell casting mechanic for it)

I also feel that the Rubric marines themselves are still a bit overpriced, with all the new stuff you introduced with for the sorcerer he is now very much worth his price tag but you actually gimped the Rubrics and still kept them the same price, unless of course I'm missing something here and thy have some ability i am unaware of.

• If I'd dropped the Rubric price, they would be too overpowered against MEQ's (even with all that abundant cover saves).
  • Well it's your call but that's just how i feel, it's mostly the fact that you sort of nerfed them with the stupor rule and still kept them the same cost.
    • Dropped 2 pts. on all rucrics. Might be too much for minor Stupor nerf.
      • I think one point would have been enough, may not seem like much but throughout an entire army that builds up quickly

On a whole i feel that the biggest problem of the codex so far is unit diversity.

• It's more about magick diversity than unit diversity.
  • I don't know about you but i at least feel that you should strive to have both.

One of my favorite things about you codex was definitely the Robe, Books and Words of power. They were very much welcome additions and added a lot of character to the codex. Now initially i was quite enthusiastic about you spell casting mechanics and although i still like them i think that you might have made them a bit too complex, this will of course need testing but as it stands I think it might end up bogging down the game having to keep track of all the various conflicting status effects, how they interact with each other and who has what amount of warp charge stored and sacrifice tokens etc.

• Yes, I know it's complicated, but it's supposed to be. You need to have sheet of paper to monitor all of your sorcerers spell lists, warp charges, sacrifice tokens, and WC's stored in rod or cascet if you have one. Though, most of the sorcerers in your army would be ML1 with no rods, sacrifice tokens or casket anyway

I made PDF for Russian version of this codex, and there is special printable page with suitable forms for it

• • sounds interesting it would be nice to see that translated as well if possible
    • I make PDF of this on english - slowly and purposefuly. Writing fluff on foreign language is hard. It's currently on Psychic Powers stage.

On that note though I find the fact that you simply buy sacrifice tokens to be kind of boring, perhaps also make them attainable by draining other psychic models of their energies and such, having something like that as buyable wargear seems just somewhat mundane.

• HQ models can take sould hunter rule to drain sacrifice tokens out of their kills
  • See i didn't notice that, that's what i get for reading it while tired i miss things

Also on another note fluff wise the Young sons shouldn't exist but they seem like a cool idea with good potential that i will probably steal for my own Thousand Sons Fandex so i'll let that slide.

• In one of the short stories ("Masters, Bidding") Was a sorcerer who was from one of such "young sons". Though he passed the final test (which was a nerfed version of Rubric) and became full-scale Rubric Sorcerer. And those who failed this test became his Rubric Marines.
  • link?
    • Uh, I only know it's from "Treacheries of Space Marines" book. I read it in fanmeda translation on warforge (basically, Russian version of Warseer)
      • thanks

P.S this was written at 01:00 AM so i might not be the best judge of codex writing during such small hours of the day.

• Thanks anyway.

On a further note in the book Ahriman Exile the thousand sons(more accurately a splinter warband)is seen fielding several Storm eagles so you might want to include that as well.

• OK, it's a good idea

Similarly it wouldn't hurt to allow for Dreadclaw dedicated transports for Dreadnoughts and sorcerers squads and such. Speakign of your sorcerer squad i think it should start at having just three sorcerers and then allow you to take up to 9 sorcerers in addition to body guards, more flexibility is always better.

• I tend to agree. They started as "one sorcerer for every cult" (thats why they stuck on fixed five) squad, and then i changed them to choose cults freely.

Further improvements could be made by adding Rubric Havocs and Bikers, and allowinnng Rubric marinnes to take other special weapons not just a heavy bolter(there's even art of rubrics running around with plasma guns).

• Rubric Havoks kinda overlaps with Erasers, and Rubrik Bikers - with Discraiders. I even had Cybernetica Robots as Obliterator replacers, but they overlapped with Erasers too. Anyway rubric bikers kinda look silly.
  • I think you should just throw in the bikers anyway as a sort of a cheap alternative to the Disc Riders. Also if you were to combine the erasers and Rubric Havocs into one single unit, so at base you get basically a normal 5 man rubric marine squad which can then be upgraded with heavy weapons of their own(same options as normal havocs but they can't take lascannons or missile launchers but can take heavy flamers)and can then also be given Disc platforms as another uppgrade to give them even more firepower, guide aim would also be a buyable uppgrade.

Also i just generally really dislike the fact that armies with Ahriman can't take units with the "rare" special rule, it just feels like such an artificial limitation.

• I tried to represent that Ahriman lack an access to Legion armouries, becuse he got exiled. Those rere things are really rare, and Ahriman warband are mostly gust rubric marines and exiled sorcerers from the Brotherhood of Ash. How about changing it to "only one Rare unit per FOC"?
  • That sounds like a far better limitation

Oh and this is a minor gripe but in english they're called Rubric Marines and not rubricators so you might want to change that for the translation.

Oh and i also feel you should add Sorcerer contemptor dreadnoughts.

• There is an option to turn Contemptor into Sorcerer. I don't make separate unit, because it would allow to bypass Rare rule limitations.
  • More stuff i missed

I also feel that the Disc Riders should be a squad that also consists of nothing but sorcerers, except this time they have discs of tzeentch.

• Fluffwise diskriders are just regular Rubric marines with their Aspiring Sorcerer being really good at summoning daemons and binding them. That's why they lose their disks when sorcerer dies. Though the idea of discriding Sorcerer squad is good - I would add that option to the Sorceer Squad

Also it would be nice to see tzeentchian versions of the daemon engines (Heldrake, Forgefiend, Maulerfiend)worked into the codex.

• I don't think TS are good friends with Dark Mechanicus of Hellforge. Even their Deceivers are just reforged Defilers, gifted to them by Chaos Lords who for hiring some Rubric squads.
  • Actually the Thousand sons are very good friends with the dark mechanicum, there even exists several tzeentch dedicated Forgeworlds(Forge Castir and Forge polix i believe). They even used to work with Legio cybernetica(btw there is antoher unit idea, robots lead by sorcerers or pyrae techmarines) and had several tzeentch specific daemon enignes both in the RPGs(Aether Ray and Mirrorfiend) and in Epic(Doomwing, Firelord and Silver tower.)
    • hell the Brotherhood of dust even had their own clan of renegade tech priests working for them

I can't help but think that almost all units should have Hatred and/or Preferred Enemy(Space Wolves)

I'm just going to leave my own version here https://mega.co.nz/#!9tpzhLTT!cDZc3mum0FIIqIQuW2Rmbm8QVyJExzlNOM572nmlTF4 , I took a much simpler and streamlined approach to it and decided to rather than make the units more powerful to compensate for their expense to instad keep tehm power wise the same and instead make them cheaper allowing you more stuff in one list. Still it might provide you with ideas or inspiration or such. I know yours has for me.

I love everything about the codex, except for one thing: Rubric Terminators can't be equipped with powerfists or lightning claws. Was it intentional,and if it was, why did you made such a decision? I always thought, that this is one best pieces of wargear available to them.

It was intentional, to make them less choppy, but more shooty compared to vanila CSM. The guy for whom I designed this codex actually insisted on this option limitation, compensated by more heavy weapon per squad.

So I've read through the codex a few times (ok more than a few) and I've noticed a number of typo's/inconsistencies/things that need clarification. I am a native English speaker and I was wondering if you would like me to go through and make note of all the possible edits that I can find and send you a list. If you want to discuss this more privately, I have a librarium-online account at username paladin87.

You can contact me on Skype lakush.doomrider to get a source file of a codex if you wish to fix my shitty English. I'm perfectly OK with you completely re-writing fluff sections as long as it does not fuck up page formating (which is quite fine-tuned).Mezmerro (talk) 14:28, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

A comment:

I love your codex, and am a great fan of the thousand sons, but I think your codex would benefit from another heavy weapon such as a magic alternative to the lascannon, as well as some protection against the Grey Knights, who would eat this army like a trash compactor. Otherwise, love your list. Magnus the Red is epic.

• I tried it against GKs, and it was OK. Sure, witchfire and malediction powers become less reliable due to DtW5+ and Ld penalty, but you have quite a lot of blessings and few unique powers that does not target enemy units. Additionally you still gonna dominate shooting phase with AP3 everywhere and the ability to curse terminators into Sv 3+, and with a few Raptora or Attenae sorcerers (ideally with tome and calm or sword words) GKs would never reach melee, where they are the most useful. It's still not an easy matchup, but I think it souldn't be, since GKs are antidaemon/antipsyker specialists.Mezmerro (talk) 08:14, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Questions

Ok, so going through the codex, and it looks really cool.

First questionn though: Arhiman has the tome word of power, so you can chose his powers during deployment. His Book of Kallimakus "Ahriman can choose one psychic power from each Thousand Son discipline, after rolling powers normally" does this mean if he uses tome he doesn't get the benefit of the book?

Well, my fault. It was supposed to be Book WoP so he can write 5 powers in the roster and then pick 6 more (one from each school) at the game starts.

Why does the rubric marine squad max out at 15 moddels? For comparison, the CSM Thousand sons can go up to 20 moddels... though that tends not to be used.

As you said there is little point in taking so many rubric marines. Ideally you should't field squads that cannot fit into Rhino, since walking marines are dead marines, invuln or not.

In the dread claws wargear section, it only lists inferno bolts. You can buy a reflection crystal from vieical wargear as some piece of armament, but it wouldn't benefit from the inferno bolts. Is this a typo?

It's in the case you're gonna take combi-bolter, otherwise you wouldn't benefit from them.

In the golem wargear section, it lists that "One model in a squad can take: Icon of Chaos 5 pts. " A description of the icon is not listed anywere, and if you intend them to use CSM icons they don't have marks of chaos... meaning only icon of vengeance and they already have fearless. Most of the time they also have soul blaze, so even if they could chose tzeench's icon of flame it wouldn't be that helpful.

Icon is in the special weapon wargear section. It's a warp-charge fueled teleport homer for terminators and daemon models, like winged DP or allied daemons or daemonic marines (obliterators, warp tallons, posessed)

Ah, they are named slightly differently. in the golem sdection it is "Icon of Chaos" and in the special wargear section it is "Chaos Icon." Mildly confusing.

Minor typo, in the description of warp lance "breath of chaos is a witch fire with the following profile:"

Fixed.

Another minor typo, in the description of the insorcist "Dust Herd: non-vehicle units in 24" of a Tecnomancer ignore Sorcerer Command special rule."

Fixed.

With the leach power, when using a sacrifice, it just says the sorceror regains 1 wound for each unsaved wound. Is this supposed to use the same rule as the normal version of this power, were the user gets temporary wounds if they would regain wounds over their maximum?

Fixed. Only one extra wound allowed, no matter what.

Why the forced troop choice of rubrics? It seems kinda odd... They have a slight advantage over the CSM sons, with an accompanying cost mark up. especially with a kine shield they should be durable enough to hold whatever they want... So why force the choice? Even thematically, the force could have run low on golems do to attrition. They rely on new recruts backed up by old mages.

This is mostly to prevent "all-young sons" lists, because I fell it's totally not the way TS should be played: Young Sons are precious few who could embrace rare Magnus gene-seedd, not a cannon fodder. And speaking of Kine shield you highly overestimates it's usefulness - smart opponent would pop it up with some cheap ant-tank unit, like sabre platform, defkopta or riflemen dread, before gunning down the rubrics inside with bolters, shootas, lasguns and the like. And even if he's not, all glances and pens against shield would transform into AP- wounds against unit inside of it.

And the rubrics are also not all that common, given that they are only replaced slowly. It seems a kinda artificial limitation, especially when you can make a 1 squad of rueberics and 5 squads of young sons in one detachment. To make it feel fluffy, that particular fragment of the thousand sons are running out of ruberics. They have barely enough to drive their rhinos and some jump squads. So they have started recruiting more aggressively, leading to an excess of young sons. They figure the fires of battle will weed out the unworthy.

Also, yeah kine shields break, but it means your opponent has to dedicate S6+ weapon to killing infantry... which is nice if you have some mid size tanks. It is a very interesting power.

AFAIK Rubric marines are technically immortal, as sorcerers can put their souls back to their armour if they manage to recover it, or even put them in a new set if they can get it. Even sorcerers themselves can come back from dead, though only Magnus can revive them. This is mostly due to Rubric made their souls "uneatable" by daemons, so it's not that hard to bring them back. All in all, those covens still loyal to Magnus and wealthy enough to afford new armour aren't going to run out of golems any time.

Also Auxilia, are they going to get finished at some point? the vast majority should just be straight ports from CSM or I.

Auxilia shoild be finished in a weak or too. It's gonna be mostly IG/LoTD mix. They are meant to add some meatshields and token scoting units that could be buffed by TS psy powers (as only BBs could be targeted by blessings).

Golden way dosn't state if it stacks with itself or not. Besides the primarch there are power words that let any caster cast the same spell twice in one turn. If they do stack that would be terrifying, though there are better uses for warp charges.

BRB says that multiple buffs stacks unless otherwise stated.

Can multiple castings of puppet master use the same target? Say a 8 strong squad of sorcerors that all know puppet master are in range of a leamun russ tank. They all cast targeting it, all pass their psykic tests, and hit the tank. can they now spray 8 shots with the battle cannon in one shooting phase? What about a deathstrike carrier that is preped and ready to go? or a havok squad with lascannons?

This is actually a good question. I just copypasted Puppet Master wording from BRB Telepathy, and GW it it's unending wisdom does not prefent turning LRBT cannon into gatling blaster through multiple puppet master casts. I shoould probably fix tis ridiculousnes.

To be fair, they don't have 8 man stacks of psykers running around generally.

Well, you may check the new wording, that prevents multiple muppetmastering but works good on heavy weapon units, especially those that aren't like devastators or havoks (with bolter guys in the front soaking hits).

Does egal eyes give a mini torrent effect to template weapons in the squad? Warp shots also increase the range of shots, but is explicit in the granting of torrent.

No it does not. Warp shots warps reality, while eagle eye just increase accuracy on exteme range.

Does a sorceror's cult affiliation have to be in the army list?

Yes, it should be.

With the obsidian casket, does each power manifested count as being manifested by another separate caster? Say a ML 4 sorcerer lord has a obsidian casket, and at the start of the movement phase puts all his charges in the casket. could he then manifest the power 4 separate times? 1 time as the casket counts as another caster strapped to the sorcerers back? the latter seems more reasonable, though only in this army is enough power being thrown around to make it important.

It counts as a single separate caster, so no multicasting.

Chaos Spawn... why don't thousand sons get them? I mean, I get that ruberics won't go goopy but surely the god of change probably lends them a number.

I tried to make TS army look "cleaner" with no daemonic forces aside DPs and their iconic Defiler variant, no cultists in main force and no spawns. You may notice they have no Obliterators, Mutilators, Posessed, deamonic vehicles (aside Deciever). I was tempted to add Mirrorfiends, Doomwings and Firelords, but they were Tzeenchite Dark Mechanicum toys, not TS. Fluff wise Rubric made both Sorcerers and Golems immune to spawnhood, so they cannot have supply of heir own spawns through failed champions like other bands. Also TS had a very bad history with a flesh change turning many of their old friends into spawns before the Rubric solved this problem, and most would put spawns of their misery instead of subjugating/taming them and using them as some kind of super attack dogs, like other CSMs tend to do. TL/DR: if you want spawns, take CSM allies, but you probably shouldn't since they don't fit good with TS fluff, and TS vehicles don't need screening mobs, since they come with 5++ stock.

Why does Magnus have a force axe? Unwieldy is bad with his I8, any monstorus creature is already AP 2, and strength 7 versus 6 isn't really relevant. It is really a bit of a nerf... was this intentional? Also, what sort of modal is he supposed to use? Something like the other deamon Premarch?

Magnus have an axe because he have it on artwork. And unvieldy does not affect MCs and walkers, so he can strike on his full initiative. As for model, he's supposed to use small (non-oval) MC base, and maybe DP model - when he manifests he looks like his former mortal body at first, but then when he start to run out of energy to fuel his presence on the material plane he start to lose his human shape, turning to the creaature of light and flame. My friend use slightly modified Balrog model for his Magnus when he field one.

Also, if Magnus casts battle form on himself, does his I 11 mean he goes before hammer of wrath? Does it also make his melee attacks AP1? He does seem really, really awesome... even costing nearly three land raiders(seems to be the going currency of 1d4chan...) he seems like he could bring an unholy amount of pain at cost. Also, that cost... I get 666 and all that, but was he stated to match? I mean... I have no idea how much the free sacrifice abilaty should cost, but mastery 6 seems unprecidented. Other then that he seems to just be a deamon prince with buffed stats and a deamon flamer.

No stat can go more than 10, except current attack number. And Magnus IS a beast. I fought once against him with my Tau army and he brought a lot of pain for his points and a little bit more. He can buff himself into allstats 9 and even if you manage to wound him he can regen with IWND and Leech. Knowing this I completely ignored him and instead went on scoring units, wiping them out or sniping sorcs with my outflanking kroot snipers, since Magnus have no minor psychic powers to underp stupored rubrics them with Obey. At the end I just thrown my kroot on Magnus to tie him for a turn or two to ensure my only survived FW squad could hold the objective. I felt 666 wasn't enough and planned to nerf him (by doubling the warp charge cost of Battle Form, Leech and Wings for him) but forgot it at the and since I still managed to claw my way to victory through smart play i left him as he was, enjoying the look on my freind's faca as his 666 pts mosrocity get stuck in the corner murderuing one cheap kroot squad per turn..

Crematorium offers a cheap way to blow his way out of a tarpit. even with only 4 charges spent on it thats a 12+d3" radius S10 AP1 blast ignoring cover. Only invulnerable covers that... and anything with an invulnerable save is generally small enough to clear quickly. Cast prescents first and sudenly only 1 out of 36 of any unit without an invulnerable save are dead. Cast flicker on any ally that might be caught in the blast, and you should be good to go. Though I can seeing the option... their are 30 spells to remember.

You should roll a few ones on to wound rolls from crematorium, meaning you still going to spend the CC phase finishing them off. It also blows up half of your own guys that happen to be nearby. But yes, flickering and presciense solve it. With 42 spells to choose you have all the options in the world.

Perhaps make him spend an extra warp charge to trigger the sacrifice benefit and give him soul hunter without a limit to the number of sacrifices tokens? might get a bit confusing, but it will actually take some effort to get momentum going with his powers.

Good idea. I'm going to mix it with less restrictive Overload variant, so you can still turn him into allstats 9 rerollable 3++ undying mostrocity if you spend all your Warp Carhges on self buffing or actually use his powers to kill things but remain (relatively) vulnerable even to regular guns (30-man autogun-cultist squad would strip him of 1 wound per rapid fore volley, and they are just 160 pts). Check the new variant.

Hmm... he is still terifying but much less so... is he still worth 666 points? Thats a lot of tanks. He can throw down a ton of fire, but if you're opponent focuses fire and he doesn't break LOS he will die.

As Tau player I know that T6 W6 2+/3++ model is ridiculously tough. Mostly that's why I ceased to use Riptides - they're killing all the fun with "thrust behind the cover/BLoS or suffer horribly" risk management.

Why does he get debuffs on casting blessings? From what i can see he isnt that op, since it does take alot of warp charges to get his defenses up anyway and you dont really need to kill him to win so defensive spells wont always do much. Especially since he only generates only 6 warp charges, which is all used on setting up those defenses leaving him useless for the rest of the psychic phase.

wormhole seems to be a very good at letting a unit run away from assault. If the turn before they disingage, then cast wormhole the following turn, they can move 18" and if the unit assaulting wants to follow, they can't engage in an assault... unless the board is very open and they roll well on run/charge distance.

It's good for escaping melee, but it also allow enemy models to follow you through the portal. Tau and Eldar could really abuse it, jumping into wormhole, laying dakka on everything on the other side, and then thrusting/battlefocusing back, and sinxe one of my main armies is Enclave Crisiswing my TS friend learned it hard way. On the other hand it could be used for a very dickish moves: my friend one dreadclawed SorcDread with extra level and Book and Onslaught WoPs in the middle of the table to doublewormhole half of his army 36" across the table behind my Aegis on turn two, and decimating most of my scoring units in one volley. I like the fact that while wormhole is very powerful, it could be used against you as well, especially if your opponent army is more shooty than chopy (which most armies in 6E tend to be).

But, as a wormhole is manifested at the start of your movment phase, wouldn't the caster be unable to jump and recast?

You mean jump out of droppod? Re4serves and Psy powers both stated to be done "at the start of movement phase" and GW FAQ'ed that you can do both in any sequence. Also you can cast powers that don't need LoS from inside the transport, son in the case of dropsocrdread it's not a big problem that he's still inside the Dreadclaw at the start of the phase.

As in move from one wormhole template to the other. How the power was worded, I thought you have to cast all wormholes before you use them for movement. So you can't throw down a wormhole, step through it, then throw down another as that first move means you are no longer at the start of the movement phase.

The point is he deepstriked to the center of the board, so he placed first wormhole from the center to his deployment zone, and second one from center to my deployment zone.

Does the Hell power stack with itself?

Yes.

Does the Obsidian casket counting as a separate caster mean that manifesting crematorium from it deals a hit to the person carrying the casket?

No.

How do you measure distances for wormhole "first one within 6" of the Sorcerer and the second within 18" of the first one" Is the distance between blast templates measured from the center of the template? any point on the edge?

A food question. It should be from the center. I should change a wording a bit.

When you pass through a wormhole, does the model appear on the same spot on the conected blast template, or anywhere on the other template?

In any point.

More questions as I think of them.

Also big thanks for the feedback and finding holes in my wording.

No problem, I have been interested in this codex since last spring... even though I only started playing 40K recently. Now I know what all the rules mean, I am glad to help improve them.

Do Cracking Blazes stack?

By the BRB all effects stack unless otherwise stated. This also means you can wipe hordes of T3 models with 3 Enfebles stacked on them.

Feedback

This is to keep my feedback separate from questions and typos.

So I built a list of 1500 points, and ran it against a slaneshi CSM list I made a while ago in VASSAL.

Corvadie Sorcery lord 175 2 additional mastery levels 50 points Power word calm 5 points Obsidian casket 40 points Master of corvadie 35 points Single of mastery 20 points Force sword

Ruberic sword master 100 points Deamon sword 15 points

Sorceror squad 150 points 5 more sorcerors 250 points 9 body guards 180 points all sorcerors get power word calm

Ruberic Marines 156 points 4 more marines 44 points 2 get heavy bolters 15 points

Young sons 90 points 2 additional sons 30 points

Chaos space marine list

HQ, Chaos Lord of salesh Steed of salesh, black mace and power axe, melta bombs. Single of coruption, Veteran of the long war, Mark of slenesh, Gift of mutation.

Elite, Chaos Terminators(5x), 1 with heavy flamer+chain fist, champ with lightning claw&chain fist mark of salesh, veterans of the long war, icon of excess. Chaos land raider dedicated transport with dirge caster and extra armor.

Troop 1, Noise marines(6x) sonic blasters(4x), blast masters(1x), doom siren, Mark of slenesh, icon of excess.

Troop 2, Noise marines(6x) sonic blasters(4x), blast masters(1x), doom siren, Mark of slenesh, icon of excess.

Fast attack, Chaos spawn(5x) Mark of salesh

Heavy support, Forge fiend Ectoplasma cannon (x3)

The map was a dense city scape. The end result was the sorcerer lord and swordmaster joining the giant sorcer stack and wormholing their way to the front. The lord kept the unit flickering, prescent, enlivened, and some dice from golden way. The marienes unit tried to run a seperate route, but hit the saleshi lords stack and got stuck till the game ended. The young sons sat on an objective didn't really do any fighting.

The land raider survived till turn 2, as 2 of the sorcerors had lightning which is just so nice for killing AV 14. Almost to nice...

will finish the report later.

The ruberic swordmaster is really nice, especially if given a deamon sword. Nice protection for a mage commander, and though it is a waste to send him at challenges, with an enliven he will kill most oponents.

well, he is, and since I added him not so long ago (under impression of a short story where TS swordmaster killed Lucuis) I hadn't playtested him. I hadn't even adjusted his ponts well. Apparenly he's all around better AND cheaper that Chaos Lord with the same wargear AND could turn int beast while enlivened. So... +20 pts and -1 A would make him slightly more ballanced.

eh... he also can't lead a unit and needs to be baby sat by a sorceror. Also, that enliven is using up a warp charge... to also give overwatch to golems but still. 135 that is very expensive for a jumped up bodyguard unit. Also, why rather then the wierd semi HQ unit make it like the Tau crisis body guard? An army can take 1 for each HQ unit.

Chaos Lord with power sword and sigil costs 105, swordmaster get, +1 WS, AP3 bolt pistol and some extra abilities, that need a warp charge to be spent on top of that, but does not get neat buffs for killing enemy characters. OK, 120 pts base was a bit overboard, 110 would be OK. Noslot bodyguard idea is fine - I feel it would be fine that he don't take slot if there is Sorcerer Lord in a force.

Also note that without Enliven rubric marines cannot sweeping advance, since SaP affects whole unit, even if there is only one SaP model in it.

Geeze... flickering sons are hard to kill. On the whole, much like in the normal codex... Corvidae/Divination are really, really good on an HQ. With a bunch of warpcharges, they can do stupid things.

So how does the game against ECs ended? I suspect not the best way for your opponent, since he invested more than half of his points into plasmafiends, LR and terminators, any of which is not a good choice against flickering lightning-spamming TS (or even vanila TS from SCM codex), but still...

TS take heavy loses but win on points. They end up killing everything besides a squad of sound marienes that snuck around the flank to engage the young sons. They fail to kill them, and game ends before they contest the objective. If I remember correctly, TS got slaly the warlord, first blood, and 1 objective. the CSM got line breaker. so a solid TS win. The level 4 sorcerer lord was definitely worth the investment.

speaking of which, I ran a 500 point list against a tau list... turns out 2 squads of sons can real with being out numbered. The tau brought a hamer head and a broadside, 3 squads of fire warriors, and an etherial. TS brought 2 squads of marienes and a MS level 3 sorceror with tome for golden way/precence/fliker/perfect timing. 1 squad sorceror had tome for wormhole, the other just picked up lightning. both squads had 1 golem with a multi melta.

it was a relic game... the TS tabled them, only losing 1 full squad and 2 marines off the other. the wormhole was the main reason they won. They started behind an LOS blocking building. didn't stop them from getting hit be the hamer head's submunitions and losing 2 marienes before they could be buffed. then they buffed, warped to the middle of the board, comand squad picked up the relic and went back through the wormhole(is that at all legal?). the lightning squad went through the same hole and moved to engage the hammer head. they murdered it with the melta and lightning, but then had to turn and face 24 fire warriors with an etherial nearly in rapidfire range with a broad side. they weathered it without a loss(flickering for the win) and the comand squad warped in to engage the broad side. they killed the hell out of it with a melta shot, and the lightning squad picked off a couple more fire warriors. fire warriors now take no more mariens of the lightning squad, but take a couple off the comand squad. then the comand squad woremholes behind the etherial and sparays fire at it... takes the sorceror ensuring a hit with golden way to do it, but they bring the other HQ down. after this its just a grind until there are no firewarriors left. TS take first blood, slay the warlord, and +1VP for killing an etherial. Tau take jack shit.

1)You cannot teleport through the wormhole with Relic - BRB explicitly says no more than 6" per phase no matter what.

2)If you need specific powers, it's cheaper to get Book WoP.

3)You do realize that your Sorc can only cast flicker on one squad due to "no same spells in the same turn" restrictions?

4)Multimelta?

it was book, my mistake, the relic warp wasn't really important... more just further insult to injury. still won with a table. hmm... so he would need an onslught word, a 17 point value with the robes needed to buy it. could be covered by ditching a multi muelta... you know, a bolter with a one shot double range melt attached?

Combi melta then.

Speaking about psy power restrictions: how do you managed to cast flickering on a lightning squad on the other side of the wormhole? Flickering is a Blessing with only 12" range and must be manifested at the start of movement phase. At least it doesn't need a LOS.

Also as Tau player I may add that putting both HH and Broadside in 500 army is a BIG mistake - you don't need so much anti-armor in small games, and a small squad of pathfinders instead of Broadside would be insanely more useful. And you get stupidly lucky with your saves with lightning squad: flickering gives you only 75% chance of saving, which is worse than 2+ (83%) but better than 3+ (67%), think of it like 2,5++, yet I have seen two FW squads under Sea of Fire rapidfireing terminator squads off the board in one volley. Same kind of luck with HH down - you land all three shots and he loses all three DisPod-boosted Jink saves (unless he's stupid enough to not move his tank at the first turn, and not to put dispods on everything that costs more than 100 pts., which he very well may be)

Questions about the Auxiliary

So... yeah, auxilery is very, very cool.

Could you add a note near the start with a list of wargear that appears in codexs. Like refactor field and carapace armor.

I love the expendable special rule! By extension I love every part of the cultist rabble unit. Though perhaps a note to make clear that you can put blast templates/templates over expendable units.

Also, perhaps cultists shouldn't be scoring? It does seem wrong that they both don't give first blood and can score...

typo I think? The chimera can replace its multilaser with a heavy bolter for free or a twinlinked heavy bolter for free?

on the viechle wargear section, perhaps a note that added weapons are pintle mounted by default?

Tzaangor typo

Hmm... lost a lot of artillery compared to the IG.

Does the thrall wizard sac to reduce the psykik power roll work on sacrifice powers? it says a "natural result of 12+" in the sacrifice explination... which sort of makes me question their utility. I guess free sac tokens are nice, and they are cheap psykers... but you are generally bringing 1 squad in a <2000 point game. Also it seems like a sacrificial scroll is cheaper for auto making a sacrifice.

They would improve chances of successfully manifesting Sacrifice powers, but not the risk of getting Perils out of it. Sacrifice is a "high risk, hight reward" mechanic, and by sacrificing thrall wizards you at least can lower one risk factor - chance of spending token and not manifesting power at all. Also could be used to aim focused witchfires, which need 5 or less on psy test to pick targets. And yes, scroll is cheaper, but it cannot cast powers of his own (albeit on Ld8) before being used.

Oh dear lord Tzeentch

I want to write fluff so bad. I like the idea of a whole army of golem marines.

If you really want you may. Ideally a page or two of general TS fluff and a 2-3 paragraph on each unit. I, gouig to dump my own crude attempts soon.

Ok, it's mostly in. You may see how terrible it is and any writefag is encouraged to improve it or just rewrite it.

not the OP, but going through and doing some editing... mostly trying to make it read better. not touching any of the rules.

High Sorcery

How's this interact with Deny the Witch? on a pass they have to get number of warp charges successes?--Bobthe6th (talk) 21:41, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm currently reworking the codex heavily, do adapt it ot the 7e. High Sorcery is working that way:

1) You declare how many WCs want o spend

2) You roll a Ld test with -1 bonus for innumerations (unless daemon weapon taken)

3) If you success, your opponent must roll the number of sucessfull DtWs equal to the number of warp charges you successfully spent to manifest the power, just like per regular rules.

so how does the sword power word work then? Force the enemy to get an additional success?

No it does precisely what it says: force a -1 on DtW. This means 7+ without any positive DtW mods, like a Hood or Adamantium Will, or Kharn.

so, wait... for 5 points you can force through powers past deamon armies with 20-30 warp charges? I was having a hard time evaluating some of the power words... now sword seems pretty much necessary on ML 4 models.

PDF testing

OK, it's almost done. I'd much appreciate spell check, and rules wording check in case I missed something. And yes, Discflyer get thrown off-board. Its because it should be scratch-built.

Hmm... is Inorcist+Rubric Swordsmaster as busted as I think it is.

Also... I think you might want to make the wording on the swordmaster "For each Sorcerer Lord (including Ahzek Ahriman)in your army, you may include one Ruberic Swordmaster. This unit does not take up a Force Organisation slot."

Otherwise people make truly silly deathstars. Like the inorcist, the sorceror lord, and 4 swordmasters. Yes it is stupidly expensive, but that squad will never die. Especially if you give the inorcist an onslaught word.

Suggestions/Questions

Just some things i'd like to see. Assault cannons for the terminators, since they already had those (A thousand sons horus heresy novel) Just renamed Reaper.

It was a book author's fuckup. By the main (codex-rulebook-forgeworld) canon there were no terminator-portable AC's during the Heresy. Besides that, chaos guys don't like them anyways and don't use looted ones because they require too much maintenance for their taste, especially compared to Reaper which is like AK-47 level durable.

Oh, Didnt know that was non-canon

Also i understand why the terminators have less melee weapons than proper ones, but maybe they could still get powerfists and chainfists. Maybe at an extra price so that power weapons are the basic weapon.

The guy who read pretty much all TS fluff since 2E insisted on that TS termies should have no fists.

(Edit)Got a new idea. Could they get their iconic force khopeshes/axes/halbers? I imagine the statline would be an axe

Could the Terminator sorcerors have mastery 2 maybe? To reflect them being some of the highest sorcerors in the legion.

Level 2 sorcs are automatically above "aspiring" level, so no. You may include regulare HQ sorc into the termi squad, trhough.

Also. There could be more than 1 terminator sorceror per squad as they were some of the most powerful psykers so alot of them would have been immune to the rubric.

That's a good idea. Maybe one sorc normally and one more and 9-men squad size.

Sounds good

(Edit)Could Incorsist and Techonamcers get sacrifice versions of their powers? I'll drop my suggestions. Incorsist: d6+2 revives instead, Undying could be feel no pain 3+ and vengeful spirits maybe double the amount of casualties? Tecnomancer: Machine heal. either 2 dice or on a 6/5 you get to heal 2 points instead, Burning wrath add 2 strength, 1 ap and cauterize? Corona. Attack is strength 5 and ap 3 instead. Possess vehicle, Allow sorceror to move and fire snap shots maybe? Those are just some suggestions. Im sure you can think of something way more balanced though.

Tecnomancer/Insorcist spells are already more powerful than the regular ones (hence why they cost more than ML2 sorc), and adding a Sacrifice mechanic may result in them being broken when paired with Terrorfiend or Thrall Wizards. Besides, there is little place left on their pages in PDF, and adding Sacrifice would require me to re-format them.

Questions I was looking at throw power and it refers to a Impact hit dependant on distance fallen. What is that about?

It's from terrain rules. Impact hits happen when models jump from the roofs or ruins at least 2" high. That's basically Dangerous terrain tests, excepet they ignore armour and have +1 to wound for every full 2" of fall height besides first one (so for example for 6" fall they'd wound on 4+)

Thanks. Couldnt find that rule

Are you planning on putting the spireguard into a pdf format like the actual army? Or maybe just in the same one.

I started to put updated Spireguard into the main PDF a while ago but than forgot about it. Since I have a spare time right now it's a good idea to finally finish it.

Any reason the DP comes with power armor standard? The magisters robe just seems to do the job better. I get that power armor is pretty much standard on deamon princes... but it is just wasted points if you take a robe.

First off, its for fluff reasons, since all TS DPs are marines, so they get their armor fused into them when they ascend. Also it helps balancing robe, which was initially designed for a power-armour wearing characters, and on DP without armor they grant too much benefit for their cost.

In playtesting... how scary has a battle form DP been? With darkblade it looks like it can open all of the knights like a can opener. and 7 I10 S9 AP2 instant death hits seem like it could shred through a lot of deathstars. Oh, also, any chance of getting the option to take a force staff for like 15 points? Basically a thunder hammer, granting native S9 and concussive.

Fully upgraded DP with wings for mobility, cloud for tanking heavy firepower, robes for 3++, three WoPs and one or two extra MLs costs more than a Knight while still being vulnerable to massed small arms fire. No wonder it picks it up on the offensive, being able to wreck pretty much anything with a right spells (Book/Tome for the win).

Reality warp+invisibility seems fairly busted. Makes the casters unit invulnerable to ranged fire except for a few units. Sorcerer council on disks yes yes?

This is a trap my friend falls in often - overbuffing his deathstar unit with protective spells. It never turned well for him, as I just can focus my firepower on the rest of his army. That being said, RW+Invis combo is really broken, and I thik it should be nerfed. Which I'm going to do right now.

It was mostly the 3 warp charges to say no to all shooting. Still... has he tried making a jet council? But with a better stat line, and cheaper(not really cheap) ablative wounds? Discraiders+some HQ casters feels like it could get pretty nuts.

Also, nice fix for Reality Warp. Feels much more like a proper 1 warpcharge buff. Absorbing a 6th of incoming fire(more for BS2+, a lot more for B7+. BS2 50%, re rolling BS2 83.333%, BS3 33.333%, rrBS3 49.999%, BS4 25%, rrBS4 37.5%, BS5 20%, rrBS5-10/BS10/ 23.333%, BS6 15.666%(this is not quite right... the math gets weird for BS7-9))This is the % of hits received that are reflected. I can't think of anything that rerolls BS2 often, but it would best shoot at something else.

FYI: tau drones, ork bikes and coptas

Just a couple of editing and clarification suggestions if you are still taking them: you may want to look at the dreadnaught attack characteristics. There is a discrepancy between the unit description, army list, and summery statlines. In the predator army list entry it has the weapons of a land raider listed as standard, you may want to look at that. Also, in the unit description of the "deceiver" it says its armed with an aether cannon but lists demolisher cannon elsewhere. You may want to fix that too. Aside from that, I found this book a couple weeks ago and absolutely love it! It is very clearly a labor of love that is very much appreciated by the TSons players that find it.

Hopefully fixed Mezmerro (talk) 17:15, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Came up with some rules for the Silver Tower as a Lords of War Choice. I'll post it here if you say you want to see it. CouncilOfShadows (talk) 20:13, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Feedback if you're still taking it

The Primaeris for the Athanaeans Cult strips not only ATSKNF for only 1 WC (which is insane) but also happens to strip Fearless, even from things would almost certainly still be Fearless despite Warp-trickery. I was reading through the codex and came upon this abomination of a power when I compared it to Pitch Black Presence (which we just nerfed to only be ATSKNF stripping on 3 NC's). In any case, it seems extremely powerful for only being 1 WC, and despite the ability to block it, you still only need to just throw more dice at it than people can deny (which is simple with this army). The -2/-4 Leadership is just more icing on this Warp-spawned cake.

TL;DR Broken power. If it's not broken... please explain and then I'll happily bugger off and leave you to your codex

Well, when I made it, it was a copy of BRB Terrify power with -2 Ld instead of immediate Morale check, and ability to remove ATSKNF (Terrify back then removed Fearless). The main point of Hell was and is now to reduce Leadership, and thus increase the effectiveness of pretty much all other Athaeneans powers - kind of like a telepathic markerlight. I see no problem with moving ATSKNF/Fearless removal into empowered version of the spell instead of -4 Ld - it may be more worth the risk, sinc. Anyway, that Fearless removal aren't always bad, as it allows the target to go to ground, which is often more useful against TS, given their firepower and poor melee. ATSKNF removal on the other hand is.

Just read a letter from one guy, who used False Command to move 40-men IG combined squad through the Fire Wall (only five models survived that), and then forced a Command Squad to suicide jump from the roof of an Imperial bastion. I didn't expect that kind of shit... Que nerfs to the deadly use of False Command.

Magnus should probably get the minor psychic powers right? Makes no sense for him to not have them. I also feel he could use a special warlord trait. Elusive tactician is kinda underwhelming for the primarch of the thousand sons.

I don't see the reason for him to use them. He have pretty much permanent AOE Obey, no activated wargear for Empower, cannot join squads for Enliven or Fall Back, have Halo's Fear USR by default by being a monster and Illuminate is far inferior to the Perfect Timing he can cast. Mezmerro (talk) 20:41, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

My bad. I thought he was an IC, but apparently he isnt.

Also. Im sad you removed the spire guard D=. I really liked the thrall wizards and tzaangors. Would it be possible to include some of the more unique units in the codex again?

I've got a idea for the marines themselves. The Initiative of marines should be determined by the sorceror controlling them. The sorcerer could be determined by checking the sorcerer with the highest psy rating affecting their on the sorcerers command rule. Whether it be a squad member or someone with an aura like an incorsist or magnus. Would this work at all?

Comment on Layout, Psychic Rules, Wargear Special Rules in 7th edition version of codex

Hey, just took a quick look, and I noticed somethings that um... I didn't like,

1. I would really push toward the 7th edition style of having model details and points costs in the same section.

I tried, but some units just have too much special rules, and I don't have enough art to fill space on those units that don't have too much fluff or rules.

Fair enough, templating is hard. I am just sad that 6th edition and earlier made it a thing.--NewPhyrexian (talk) 21:46, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

2. Grafting the 6th edition psychic rules into a 7th edition codex just feels wrong.

This is kind of the main shtick o the codex. Psy tests on 2+ would not cut it.

3. The fact that invul saves in this codex come from special rules packages instead of wargear makes me sad. I really like the CSM codex having Aura of Dark Glory as a Wargear choice, because the idea of auras and such as pseudo physical objects makes me smile.

4. I really don't like how you present the generation of psyker powers (separate from my misgivings about 6th into 7th) I don't like passing a value through two special rules to get into what disciplines I can get. In addition, it isn't super clear what powers a model can generate even when I glance at that.

Well, I never told this codex is simple, but generating powers kind of is - you just generate mastery level+1 powers, half from which (round down) should be from your cult discipline, and you get your cult primaris on top of that. Then books, relics and WoPs make things more complicated, but they are upgrades.

What, can you not take any BRB powers?--NewPhyrexian (talk) 21:46, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Indeed you can not, unless you buy a book of secrets. The only two BRB disciplines TS have aces to are both kinds of daemonologies. Imagine how broken could be a sorc-lord with an Iron Arm, Warp Speed and Battle Form in melee.Mezmerro (talk) 06:30, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Just noticed I was reading the codex like a 7th edition codex, and expecting the powers to be represented in the fluff statlinr page. That might be a source of confusion. Also, are you relying on the BRB's most everyone has demonology as to how psylers in your book get access to the powers--NewPhyrexian (talk) 00:55, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Cheers ---NewPhyrexian (talk) 03:38, 3 July 2015 (UTC)