Talk:Commorragh

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Great Power Status?[edit]

I'm not exactly sure why Commorragh is listed as a Great Power, haven't they struggled to deal with just small amounts of Space Marine ships before? Even in Faultless Blade it only takes one ship really to cause issues for an entire satellite realm, and I don't know of any large-scale wars they've won. Particularly in light of the recent Rulebook confirming that Craftworld Eldar represent the largest percentage of the surviving Eldar population and how poorly they fare, and their own lower power status on this wiki, I'm just not sure why Commorragh ranks as a Great Power.

Are there specific indicators used to determine who gets what status? Certain feats? Or how is it decided? --User:Malignant

  • Uh-huh, way to downplay this...."haven't they struggled to deal with just small amounts of Space Marine ships before?" Yeah....you mean that plot that was orchestrated by Vect himself to get some political leverage from his rivals? And it wasn't just a 'small' fleet of Space Marines but a fleet that is backed by an Imperial Navy itself and despite the Imperial surprise gatecrashing, they were forced to retreat once actual Dark Eldar forces came into play. Commorragh as a whole, barely flinched. Furthermore, Dark Eldar are a race of pirates and rapists, they don't care about winning large scale wars, only in getting the spoils from war. Besides that, you are talking about a city that is arguably one of the largest and most powerful polities in the galaxy, how large we don't know, but what is known is that they are a major hub to multiple xenos species and they are at the point where they have entire satellite realms to act as tributary states, Imperial China style. So the Dark City has considerable Soft Power in their pockets, more so than the Imperium. The Dark Eldar is also one of the most militarily advanced species in the galaxy, their fragility jokes aside, they are arguably more advance than their Craftworld cousins and their capabilities in stealing stars is not to be fucked with. So the Dark City has Hard Power in their pockets as well. With those two, Commorragh can project Smart Power if it wants to. There is a pretty damned good reason why the IoM would not dare invade Commorragh unless baited in the most dire circumstances, because it has no idea on how the Eldar Webway is mapped let alone trying to launch a crusade where the Imperium has almost zero influence in it. And seeing your edit history, you seem to have an unconscious bias against xenos factions, however that is how me and other editers view your work so clarify a bit or you may get called out on it. Anyways, the fact is, Commorragh is a Great Power, it may just recently had a daemonic invasion but it still stands and remains the only consistently centralized large-scaled Eldar polity. Derpysaurus
To be a Great Power it actually has to be able to perform feats worthy of a Great power. Also, if I am remebering correctly, the Imperial Navy did not ever get in to Commorragh, the battle orchestrated was against a single Salamander ship which was later reinforced only by two more. You've provided no examples of the Dark Eldar actually performing any impressive or powerful feats, you've given no indication of powerful force projection by them whatsoever. So, again, my question is then what is the indication of them being a Great Power? When have they ever displayed the capacity to project power to that degree? Also their technology is hardly that advanced, numerous weapons used by the Mechanicus and Marines far outclass them and they are regularly wiped out in large numbers by these forces. I don't have a bias, I just relate what actually happens in the canon, of course there's no point me saying this since you'll just not believe me, but for what it is worth it is there. Furthermore, again, my question is for evidence and examples of Commorragh showing it is a great power. Where is the evidence of them performing or achieving feats of that level? User:Malignant
They have a great power box, ergo they are a great power.--Namefag (talk) 19:12, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
I'm sorry I don't really understand. I'm probably missing something cause I'm new to this but can you explain what you mean by 'great power box' please? User:Malignant
The infobox in the upper-right corner and the navigation box at the bottom. They are there. Derpysaurus has already won.--Namefag (talk) 19:25, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
Isn't that a bit redundant? Also I don't know if it counts as 'winning', obviously anyone can just edit that piece, I just thought the idea was it was discouraged here to just back-and-forth edit and rather talk out to arrive at a consensus. User:Malignant
Consensus only works when you can make convincing arguments in your favor. So far, I for one haven't heard any from you. --Newerfag (talk) 19:39, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
And I can just as easily say 'I haven't heard one from you either'. It doesn't help to just say that, rather then please explain to me what it is you don't agree with and why or, better as it was what I originally asked, what actual instances of Power Projection make Commorragh qualify as a 'Great Power'. I've made clear already that, in my opinion, the fact that Commorragh has never shown the capacity to successfully defeat or project their power against any major Imperial military force is a score against counting them as a 'Great Power'. Further they're canonically now inferior to the Craftworlds in terms of proportion of the Eldar population, another thing I'd count against them for being a Great Power. Their Fleet, as far as I know, has never shown the capacity to engage any other major fleet by another major stellar power, another thing I count against them, and their inability to use the Webway to, as far as I know again as I'll admit I'm not clued up on all Dark Eldar lore, conquer or destroy any major or significant enemy force or location is another thing I count against them. These are some examples, I'm happy to provide more, but I would prefer if we could actually discuss what, in fluff, Commorragh does and does not achieve, rather than simply stating things like 'it is strong because' and 'I don't like your argument' or such. User:Malignant
How have ten millennia worth of successful raids, the destruction of numerous competitors and the enslavement of entire planets, and doing the aforementioned while keeping a relatively stable government equivalent against all odds not made Commorragh a major power in your eyes? And really? They can't use the Webway? Their entire civilization is in the Webway, it's how they've been so successful at all those raids to begin with. I can tell you aren't clued up on the Dark Eldar lore- you're making mistakes about the most basic elements of their fluff. --Newerfag (talk) 19:57, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
I do feel you misunderstood several points, so I'm going to try to deal with these bit by bit cause I'm not sure if its my poor communication or something else, but you seem to be misunderstanding me quite a bite. First: simply a long list of raids does not make one a Great Power, particularly since said raids are often against plants of little to no important and which are relatively poorly defended. A group such as, say, the Barbary Coast and such could certainly launch many raids and successful pirating ventures, but this did not make them a Great Power when measured against the actual powerful militaries of other states. The Dark Eldar are in a similar situation. Also these 'numerous competitors', who I'm assuming you're only bringing up because they are potent and significant competitors who the Dark Eldar destroying you thus feel merits note, can I ask who they are? Then, Second: I did not say they could not use the Webway, that is a complete misinterpretation of what I said. I stated specifically that they've never shown the capacity to use the Webway to strike or defeat any major force. You also didn't address some of my other points, that's fine, but I'm just pointing it out. Like I said at the outset this is not so much for me about saying Commorragh is not a Great Power, as it is me trying to understand what events make it qualify as such. I am, currently, very confused as to how the system for denoting power to the nation states works. So I'm trying to establish a barometer based on their evidenced abilities for Power Projection we see in the Fluff.
How about you stop putting the cart before the horse and study the fluff before trying to start debates? We don't have time to play teacher, and this site acts on the assumption that the readers aren't totally clueless about the fluff. Even the most cursory google searches can turn up plenty of cases where the DE won specifically due to effective uses of Webway strikes. --Newerfag (talk) 20:41, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
First: You only responded to one point, if that's all you have issue with then I am glad. Second: As I said it is not a matter of using the Webway to simply strike any target, it has to be a significant target. Most factions have a clear difference between what constitutes a significant victory or now. Biel-tain fights ten chapters and two fleets, Marneus beats M'kar, Angg'rath, Swarmlord and holds a whole Waaagh! up for a day, Sanguinor kills Skarbrand, Azrael defeats both Ghazghkull and Nazdreg's forces, Logan Grimnar defeats Grukk's Waaagh! and so on and so forth. The point is have the Dark Eldar ever used the Webway to make a strike at a significant target or force. I never disputed that they use the Webway to strike, I specifically stated it had to be against a significant force or target. The closest I can think is against the docks of Bakka, and I do believe it would constitute such an example, but my question is does that then on its own constitute Great power Status? Cause so far I have seen little in official canon or on these articles explaining at all why it is a Great power. User:Malignant
It's pointless to do so when you can keep moving the goalposts as much as you like- by their nature, the Dark Eldar go out of their way to pick on the weak and easy targets and only go after the so-called "significant targets" when it is convenient for them to do so. They are raiders and plunderers, not conquerors and empire builders.
But if you must have some kind of example, here's one: a raid on the Kroot homeworld of Pech, which led to the capture of countless Kroot Shapers and undoubtedly did a number on both them and their Tau allies. Though I'm sure you'd dance around the issue by claiming it wasn't a proper battle or what have you, the fact is that they can pull off lightning-fast attacks against foes much stronger than themselves, get away with it, and have done so since the Fall of the Eldar. --Newerfag (talk) 21:07, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
But that's exactly the point. You would not call the Barbary Corsairs a major power. I totally agree the Dark Eldar are best seen as equivalents to pirates and corsairs, hence they are not a Great Power. That is exactly the point I am making. Also I have not shifted any goal posts, my point has been explicitly clear from the beginning, I can reiterate it if you'd like.
I would consider Pech an example of this, actually, thank you for bringing it to my attention. Pech is, of course, not comparable to a main faction, but it is still an important enough one that I'd consider it a positive point for them. Also, again, just performing raids doesn't make one a Great Power. Malignant (talk) 21:15, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
Ask Derpysaurus for his rationale, he's the one who decided it was so. I'm just trying to give explanations for him. Personally, their continued survival and influence at all (not to mention being the only civilization the DE have) despite everything is enough to justify that status in my books, but apparently you'd rather have evidence of more conventional victories than the Dark Eldar are usually willing to fight. Think of them as guerrilas, not a standard military- they might not have the glorious victories of the latter, but it's no less stupid to underestimate them as a result. --Newerfag (talk) 21:21, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
But that is my point. They are like pirates, they are like corsairs and they are like guerrilas! Sure don't underestimate them, agreed, but they are not Great Powers. Viet Cong and such, guerrillas, are certainly not Great Powers. That is the point I am trying to make. Malignant (talk) 21:41, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

+

Then argue about it with Derpy, not me!--Newerfag (talk) 21:43, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
Sorry, I did not mean to argue, I was just responding to what you were saying. Malignant (talk) 21:49, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

+

Commorragh is a giant space pirate port, with countless xenos races, their own culture, political system etc. The place might be as big as a planet for all we know. It's not like the Viet Cong, it's a nation of Viet Cong, where to survive you need to learn the Viet Cong guidebook by age 2 if you want to survive. I think the issue is that Commorragh is overshadowed by all the other great powers more due to Geedubs than anything else. We just don't have that much fluff to give it's due.

Like others said, raiding is their lifestyle, they hit vulnerable targets because that's their MO. Vikings did the same thing, but I don't hear people saying they were a minor power in Europe. Hell, they were one of the biggest. The DEldar are kinda like that. Capability for destruction isn't the only measure for power you know.

  • Jesus Christ you are ignorant on the nature of power blocs. Should I quote Wikipedia for you? "A great power is a sovereign state that is recognized as having the ability and expertise to exert its influence on a global scale. Great powers characteristically possess military and economic strength, as well as diplomatic and soft power influence, which may cause middle or small powers to consider the great powers' opinions before taking actions of their own." The Dark Eldar has been shown to extend their power beyond their borders (Or what counts as their borders in the Webway) via their capabilities in conducting raids throughout the Galaxy. Essentially their influence is galactic. The Dark Eldar possess immense Soft Power via the tributary systems in the Webway (Meaning that they are the largest power bloc in the Webway) as well as their status as Pirate Hub Supreme which means they have immense leverage to other xenos or human pirates in realspace, hence why they are sometimes seen as an opportunity by Rogue Traders. Hell to give you a clue on the level of their Soft Power, they have the technology to even attract the Adeptus Mechanicus over the failing Golden Throne. And their weapons hardly that advanced? Excuse me? What levels of 'I Steal your Star for shits and giggles' do you not understand? The AdMech (Other than a few DAoT tech) do not have the same technological sophistication as the Dark Eldar, if that was the case than the Mechanicus should not have begged the Dark Eldar for their expertise over the failing Golden Throne. The Dark Eldar can rival or surpass the Imperium in Hard Power as well. These are the main pillar points on why Commorragh is a Great Power, it tick all the boxes as a Great Power. It has shown it can project its power beyond its traditional boundaries in the Webway. You do not understand anything about IR politics do you? Derpysaurus
The Vikings were not a minor power, but they did far more than just raid, so that's not even a good comparison in this case. I'm more than happy to accept that this is a result of a lack of fluff concerning them but, as I've said, my point is that I'm trying to make this judgement purely based off the presented Fluff. No I'm not ignorant of the nature of power blocs, simply saying so doesn't really prove anything. Furthermore if your definition of a Great power extends only to the definition provided by Wikipedia then we definitely do have different standards here. Then, in addition, you speak of Commorragh having a large amount of soft and hard power but give no examples of this whatsoever. Where has their soft power been used to effect major galactic change? Where has their hard power been used to overcome or defeat significant enemy forces? You only example, for Soft Power, is a single instance which, due to the recent Carrion Throne novel, we know ended with all Dark Eldar involved being killed by the Imperium without achieving anything of note. So its not a very good example. Furthermore their technology is inferior to what the Mechanicus produces. They cannot match Titans, Starforts, Ark Mechanicus, Space Marine Terminator Armour, Storm Shields and Thunder Hammers, Land Raiders, Thunderhawks and more are all superior, often, to Dark Eldar technology or vessels of the same class. Even just comparing the advanced technology now being produced as standard by the Mechanicus in the form of things like Bolt Rifles or such, or the presence of Cyclonic Torpedos and such are far in advance of most of which the Dark Eldar have been seen using. Then, in addition, the power to steal a sun seems nice but has this ever been used in anyway effectively? But I don't really want to get into a 1-for-1 on the technology, I'm merely pointing out that their technology certainly doesn't render them that much power compared to the Imperium. Furthermore I'd have to disagree completely with the notion that they even come close to matching the Imperium in terms of hard power and would like to know based off what battles you claim this to be true? Also, since it seems you want too, I can also say 'you don't know anything about IR politic do you?' It doesn't achieve much since you, like me, are just free to deny it, but if you want we can engage in it. Malignant (talk) 11:34, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
  • You seem to just ignore what I have laid out haven't you? I have already pointed out that Commorragh satellite realms and their nature as tributary systems as well as their apparent dominance within the Webway is enough to qualify it as having sufficient soft power in that region. And seriously, again with that notion of DEldar having inferior technology to the Imperium? All the things you have listed would be described as primitive or at the very least crude with the exception of the Ark Mechanicus. You're the first person I met that actually thinks that 41st millennium IoM is technologically superior to the Eldar on all fronts. If it is DAoT you may have a good point, but this is ridiculous. That and did you seriously try and use Cawl as an example? I mean yeah he did improve the Imperium, but not by much. I have already stated that Commorragh is a major hub for various pirates and has a galactic reach to attack potentially almost everywhere in the galaxy thanks to the Webway. It is far and beyond a normal regional power because of its galactic reach and its lopsided domination of the webway, however it is not a superpower since the Imperium still dominates galactic affairs. Great Power is the closest I can comprehensively give Commorragh until more fluff has been given out.Derpysaurus
    • 'But do you not have any actual examples of them using Soft power' is what I am asking. Simply possessing, for example, many ports does not automatically make one have a great capacity to project Soft Power. Want I am interested in is concrete examples of the Dark Eldar majorly affecting galactic politics through the exertion of soft power on the same level as influence which other Great powers manage in the story. That is what I am saying. Also, again, I'd completely say the Imperium is more advanced simply based on the fact that they frequently do have better vehicles, weapons, armour, shields, protection and more. The DAoT is even more advanced than that, I'd agree. With that said I'm not going to say they are necessarily more advanced on 'ALL FRONTS' than the Dark Eldar, but I am saying that they are more advanced than the Dark Eldar on 'Several Fronts'. Cawl has produced Bolters which are almost at the level or, debateably considering their AP, superior to Tau firearms, a Carbine superior to the Tau Carbine. His Plasma technology is also, largely, superior to Tau Plasma technology, particularly now that Tau and Eldar Plasma technology is not unique in that it is consistently safe. With that said what you said on your own page sounded reasonable to me and I'm going to agree with it, I think what you said there made sense. Malignant (talk) 13:15, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
      • Going back to the viking thing here. You do know Commorragh deals with a lot of trade too, right? I think the problem we have here is that you need it to be specifically demonstrated or stated that DEldar are a threat. I get the feeling you think EoM is superior due to the extraordinary feats they have managed in times of conflict. Like I mentioned before, the DEldar don't get the same love. This leaves us with lack of factual information about their capabilities. However it could be said that the same applies to the imperium, as it's often said that BL novels tend to be legends and myths, and hard to discern the truth from due to the imperiums shoddy record keeping. What we can do however is compare their military might, populations, tech etc. to figure out what they are capable of. Thanks to what we know of the DEldar, I'd consider them a major power, as do most here. Also, just because rules make guns equal, doesn't mean that stands up in fluff. Autoguns are much worse than lasguns, but they work the exact same way in game. Granted I haven't caught up with the recent fluff, but I find it hard to believe Cawl could make tech comparable to DEldar tech. These guys have black holes in boxes.
        • Again simply trading doesn't make Commorragh a Great Power. I agree completely the problem is a lack of fluff showing any evidence Commorragh can project power or effect changes on a Great Power status, byt since that fluff does not exist and thus is not demonstrated I don't see why the term is applied to them. That is the crux of what I was asking. To put it another way it felt to me like Commorragh was being given Great Power Status simply because they had a Codex, but in their actual recorded history I read in their Codices and sites like Lexicanum or 40k Wiki they have almost no feats of power projection I'd at all consider comparable to a Great Power, generally only managing to win pitched engagements against significant forces if they are allied to other Eldar, and rarely defeating any major military force, or capturing any major target, or showing the capacity to capture any major target, on their own. If there's a lack of Fluff showing power projection, for me, that'd be reason to question the power. Also I didn't know most BL novels were supposed to be considered legends, the fact that most of them have omniscient narrators and that stuff like the Horus Heresy series at least seems quite clearly determined to make a now canonical single story made me think they were generally less dubious than the stuff found in Codices. But I could be wrong on that. That being said, to be clear, I'm not rescinding what I said earlier, Derpysaurus gave a good explanation of why he made them Great Power on the discussion on his page I had and I'm still fine with that, I'm just explaining here now why I asked what I did.
        • About the technology; the thing is it isn't just the rules though. In Fluff even if Eldar technology is described as 'more advanced' it is still often functionally inferior to what the Imperium uses, making the value of it questionable. The Imperium frequently produces better armour and, despite being called the 'Masters of Field Technology' the Eldar have never produced personal shield generators, or shields of any sort, comparable to the Imperium's, as seen just in regularly equippable items like Storm Shields, which produce better and more consistent devices than any Craftworld Eldar shield generator can. Or the fact that the Imperium has arguably much more extensive access to Warp and Psychic technology between their use of null particles, geller fields, hoods of hellfire, the Imperial Tarot (which as used by Inquisitors and Grey Knight Prognosticars has a much better track record than Eldar Farseers in fluff). Then we've still got the simple fact that the Imperium just has better Genetic-manipulation technology than the Dark Eldar, despite the Dark Eldar having the Haemonculi, has things like the Space Marines, Primaris Marines and Custodes are far superior in utility to anything produced by the Dark Eldar ever. The 'blackhole in a box' for example has never been seen or shown being used effectively against anyone else, making me question its use, compared to the utility and frequent use to acquire victory of things like Storm Shields and Marines, all evidence of human technology. This is without even going into the fact that all this stuff is still supposed to be but an echo of how advanced humanity was during the DAoT. So, like I said, I'd certainly say the Imperium is more advanced on several fronts and, often, even where the Eldar are more advanced there is no functional difference making the purpose of the advancement, from a utility stand point, questionable. Also, as a final note, I wouldn't put it past Cawl at all, I mean he's something of an enormous plot device at this stage who's already supplied the Imperium with arguably better Plasma than the Eldar or Tau have, designed working grav-tech for the Imperium and is trying to create new Necron Pylons (and that's without even mentioning, again, he created Primaris Marines). So I mean I'm quite confident Cawl is the second most intelligent being to have ever lived, after the Emperor of course, reinforcing also this ongoing trend in 40k that a human is always the best at something, whether it be commanding, fighting or psychic, the best at any one particular thing, will always be a human. Or at least that is how it seems to me. Malignant (talk) 08:15, 23 August 2017 (UTC)