Talk:Damocles Crusade

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Guys, get a fucking room[edit]

Seriously, the talk page is now double the size of Codex: Knights Inductor, and it's literally just you two have a non-stop month-long back and forth. Just get a room and fuck each other senseless if you guys have that much pent up sexual frustration. Evilexecutive (talk) 07:42, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Calm down, I'll collapse the whole debate and explain what happened when this is over, in the meantime it actually is getting somewhere, pretty much everything except the Tau's "defensive walls" has been thoroughly discussed and closed. -- Triacom (talk) 08:49, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
Is it against the law, tho? -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 10:53, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
I'm guessing yes, if only because that video's not available in my country for some reason. I'll just assume it was either really filthy, or that it decidedly ended the debate in your favour. -- Triacom (talk) 14:02, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
Huh? Noo, it's just comedians Kay & Peele's turbulence sketch where they keep arguing whether not obeying the "seatbelts on" light is lawful, in a most hillarious way. I was drawing a paralell between this talk page and that sketch. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 16:42, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

The guys that need to get a room[edit]

If I printed this out, this talk page would be 82 pages long. I propose all resolved issues be deleted. If there are no objections within a timely manner, I will do some of it myself.--Emerald Claw (talk) 05:46, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

That's a terrible idea, why not just make them collapsible if you don't like how long they are? -- Triacom (talk) 07:24, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

"My god, have they got no clue." Who is "they"?--Emerald Claw (talk) 17:31, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

  • The Imperium. Looked like that statement is true in Kayuon and Mont'Ka. TheWiseDane (talk) 17:43, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
I don't think that's fair given that the only reason the Imperium lost the fight in Mont'ka is because of incredibly shitty writing. -- Triacom (talk) 22:31, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
I assumed it was saying that the Damocles Crusade was very poorly named and so the writers who named it don't understand the significance of the word "Damocles". But I wasn't confident in this assessment. I was planning on linking the word "they" to the appropriate group to avoid ambiguity. (If I was right, "they" would be linked to GW).--Emerald Claw (talk) 21:55, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
Ah, I see how that'd be confusing. Change it or link it to whatever you feel like makes the most sense. TheWiseDane (talk) 23:33, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Walk through fire? Out-meleeing Skitarii? Where does this happen? The fact that Tau survived or were evacuated doesn't mean they waded through fire, and it never says they killed Skitarii in melee. You never see more because, after snatching the xeno-tech (Heresy!) the AdMech merely returns to orbit and sits on their asses. They evacuated whatever they needed and abandoned what they didn't. We didn't see anything because the book cuts to worship Pask's ass, but that doesn't mean anyone won - most likely skitarii were shot at on the Tau's fighting retreat and got left behind because they have no transports. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 23:59, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

So how did they get out of that Skitarii ambush? They catch them in melee, then it cuts away, and the only other mention we get is when Farsight is in the war-room where it mentions that the Tau "won every single major battle." Also they don't lose any suits to the Skitarii, so the only way they could survive that melee without losing suits and while winning is if they out-fought them, not to mention you're confusing events, they appeared, took what they wanted, left, then came back later and lost. Also how does Farsight and Shadowsun leave if they don't step outside for at least a small portion? They don't have teleporters, none of the ships they had on hand (specifically mantas) would be able to dock with the base they're in and even if we assume they had ships that had could even approach the planet in the first place, though if that was the case the book says they're unable to survive the firestorm. The only possible way they could have left (since the ships can't approach) is if they exposed themselves so they could go up a grav-chute or left the base to board a ship (ie, walking out into the fire, though in both cases they should be dead). -- Triacom (talk) 04:47, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
I guess I should mention the page number when the Mechanicus come back, it happens in 67, the Tau don't even realize that the Skitarii are upon them until it is too late, but apparently not because on page 80 we learn "In the end, despite the Tau winning every major battle across the whole of Mu’gulath Bay, they had only a single strongpoint left." So they won that fight, as well as every single other fight that they were losing offscreen. -- Triacom (talk) 07:23, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
The Skitarii "ambush" them by virtue of walking straight into them without getting recognized as anything beyond polution. It doesn't say they specifically engaged in melee. And escaping such an "ambush" is quite easy when you have jetpacks and they don't even have transports. After all, standard Skitarii modus operandi is to walk towards the enemy, watch them escape and keep on pursuing. Eventually there's nowhere left to run. And that's exactly what happens - in the end the Tau lose all the ground except for their stronghold, having "won" (read: succesfully fled) all engagements. Meanwhile, for the Skitarii the engamenent never ended and they just marched forwards. And against Ruststalkers and Dragoons they didn't fare well (but they fled the defense lines...like always).
Regarding the walk through fire incident, Farsight has been shown strolling around volcanoes and the like, so we could assume suits have some protection against that. It's all an assumption, because we don't know what kind of Mechanicum fire is that. Maybe burns forever? It kills ships, so anything exposed will die, yeah. But what I understood from your writing is that they strolled around in the scorchlands utterly immune to fire. For evacuating I was thinking of a bubble shield, ablative armour or some limited form of fire-proofness, something that allowed them to escape the city but not good enough to solve the whole firewall issue.-- Zerghalo2 (talk) 19:51, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
Since when do Stormsurges, broadsides and regular Infantry have jetpacks? not to mention escaping ISN'T WINNING. There's no way you can run away from a fight (which the book never says they did) and call it a victory. Also, how do you think they weren't caught in a melee ambush? They're close enough that they're engaging the guard, sometimes in melee, then the Mechanicus walk past the guard for a period of time, then launch their own attack with the intention of capturing a Stormsurge suit. There's no logical reason they weren't caught in melee when they're that close to each other.
Dude, all Tau doctrines are a variation of "hit and don't be hit". They thrive on escaping the combat, on inflicting maximum casualties and avoiding the return fire. They call it "re-deployment", but I call it for what it is - if the enemy isn't outright exterminated either in ambush (Kauyon) or blitzkrieg (Mont'Ka) they outright flee from retribution, as they abhor glorious trench warfare. And they're good at running away - infiltrators scurry away, battlesuits jump away, infantry evacuates in Devilfishes, and Broadsides and Stormsurges...those can't really get away on their own, but you don't need jetpacks to escape when you have Orcas and Mantas. Pretty much everything actually uses those two to redeploy, even Crisis suits. TL;DR: The Skitarii kept advancing on the Tau, mainly using Rapid Fire but engaging in melee where able. Meanwhile, Tau call the alarm and succesfully evacuate. Propaganda calls the act of successfuly slipping from imperial grasp while blowing up a lot of tanks a "victory", despite the trademark "high casualties". Doesn't contradict either book or previous fluff, and it's actually fitting for both of Puretide's students. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 09:22, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
They shouldn't have Orca's and Manta's though, and that's a huge issue with how the Stormsurge suits show up, the Imperium has completely won the space battle and surrounded the planet, did they just fall asleep? Considering too the Tau's battleplan at that point was to break the enemy (presumably that's also the reason the IG don't have a single Commissar), I still don't think having to completely abandon the ace plan you kept up your sleeve and being forced to retreat after deploying every single asset you have in a last-ditch attempt to win would be called a victory (the book does say that when Shadowsun takes to the field, it will be with everything she had). I will give you though that they could have gotten away given how the book is written, after all Longstrike somehow gets away when there was no possible chance for him to escape (naturally he does it offscreen of course) however it would have been nice for the book to say what happened, rather than just "The Tau won" and given that this is clearly Tau propaganda, they'd probably call it a victory regardless of the outcome. -- Triacom (talk) 13:45, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
Whaaaat, why wouldn't they have air transports (I know they're also spacecraft, but keep reading)? You can't do Mont'Ka without Mantas, and pretty much every time you read something being "mag lifted", that's a Manta. In fact, the only way of moving Stormsurges around is through Mantas. After all, half of the Fire Caste was consolidating on Agrellan so it's normal for them to have transports. But didn't they ran away with the fleet? (the fleet wasn't destroyed, but Escaped®). Not all of them. I'm saying several Mantas, as the biggest of Tau aircraft (they're dual purpose space/aircraft), stayed with their attached Hunter Cadres and served as planet-bound transports. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 17:48, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
They didn't have air transports that took place in battles because they were too busy generating storms to keep all aircraft grounded, remember, that's the main reason the Tau were generating the storms in the first place. -- Triacom (talk) 22:06, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Come on man, how could you ignore this (all of it in page 67): "...the skies above grew murkier (so they're INSIDE the storm)...High above, at the edge of space (ie not aircraft) three streaking Mantas each sent forth a gravitic column...it was a dangerous risk (as if)...The magnetic shafts (weren't they gravitic?) pierced the roiling clouds...Rising out from the craters and striding forth through swirling dustclouds came three hulking KV128". So ferrying Stormsurges doesn't care about any storms and isn't afraid of anything. The Cheese is undeniable, but it is there man, how could you not see it? -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 06:45, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
I have to apologize again, when you mentioned aircraft I thought you were talking about Infantry moving around (as in how they escaped a fight they had no hope of winning). When they said: "With lightning storms arcing through the thick clouds above, there was little chance of air support for either side." I thought that applied to the rest of the book. Somewhere I forgot that when Farsight shows up the storm isn't there, though it does come back for the final fight. I still maintain my question though for the manta's, were the crews on the ships napping? They were DIRECTLY over the fight, and just let the Manta's drop reinforcements without any issues. They didn't even have any of the bullshit ex-machina's that Farsight had. -- Triacom (talk) 07:39, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
Well, the human armada was performing a (rather shitty) blockade on the system, and those mantas were a sub-orbital wing, a little less than 100 km of height I guess. Meanwhile, geostationary orbit (ideal for monitoring a battle) is at ~42164 km, so interdiction would need to be accomplished by Imperial suborbital flyers instead of by the armada. Either the Mantas came from the within the shield, or hidden somwhere, that I don't really know. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 19:09, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
They seemed to be doing pretty well to me until that Manta bullshit, not to mention the Imperials have Manta sized fighters too. There's no excuse for letting them through when they can easily engage them, not to mention the Mantas were hidden in deep space THE ENTIRE TIME: "High above, at the edge of space, three streaking Mantas each sent forth a gravitic column." It's just more shitty writing, like how the ground forces only use the Imperial ships to aid the battles ONCE, and then they completely forget about them every other time they could have been used to win the fight and kill all the Tau within five minutes. -- Triacom (talk) 22:35, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
Those Mantas didn't come from space, but from Agrellan. How they evaded orbital bombardment is the issue here, but the same can be said about the bulk of the Tau forces. "High above at the edge of the space" means just below 100km, that's not deep space. These Mantas don't come from the fleet. What irks me tho is the lack of bombardments from the human navy - literal one use only. Regarding those Manta-sized human fighters, what are their names of how do I search them. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 21:47, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
Oh, I see now, that makes more sense as to where they came from, but even less sense as to why they weren't destroyed. The ship in question is called the Fury Interceptor, they aren't as well armed as the Manta's, however they are well known for their resilience and Imperial ships carry THOUSANDS of them. On their own they should have won the battle, ignoring all of the ground troops, but that's just another thing the writer forgot about. -- Triacom (talk) 22:16, 29 December 2015 (UTC)
Holy shit, those are fucking awesome gothic X-wings; who cares they're much smaller than Mantas, anyone not highlighting them is bald and foolish. And yeah, now you're on my track: orbital bombardments should be more of a threat, moreso when the mission is a punitive one instead of a recolonization effort. Beyond this precise point is where one would need to concede out-of-screen stuff for the Tau to win - cloaked airports, Mantas under the dome, etc. I mean even I can come up with those simple solutions on the fly, why can't they do the same?. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 01:03, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
Around volcanoes is still very different than inside an inferno, and if the suits really could survive that, the fire wouldn't have killed every single living thing outside their shields like the book says it does. I'll repeat what I said elsewhere, if the Tau already have defences against the fire, then why does the book say they still need to build them? They don't have any sort of bubble shield outside of their main base, so that's out, and the book makes it very clear that the ships they have cannot land in it so if anything they need to leave via grav chute, ie, walking outside into the fire and being lifted out of it. As far as it's written, Farsight left the same way he entered, through thin fucking air with no explanation whatsoever. -- Triacom (talk) 20:16, 25 December 2015 (UTC)
Iffy - lava is worse than fire, yet Farsight fared better on the volcano than inside a forest fire (IKR). Everything beyond the shield did die because no only suits last barely just a few hours of heat, but also the firestorm started pretty much as an explosion, and even without the everfire it'd have killed everything in its wake. I'd call the true bs part the fact that Tau are supposedly cut off from the empire, not the city surviving the inferno. Last time I remember not only Tau could skim in the warp, but fire didn't burn in space (or the warp) and the shields took care of it. "The failure rate is high", more like "The need to add drama is high". Then how did they escape? Upwards. Not only the fire is burning the gas beneath the cloud cover (if the pollution was any higher Agrellan would've been a nuclear-winter planet), not only are Mantas actual spacecraft and Farsight is always doing HALO jumps and returning to the ships, ie, through actual thin fucking air, but there was no fire on top of them, as "the unnatural clouds continued their cyclonic whirl around the outer rim of the battle site, with a large calm eye developing over Agrellan Prime" (p. 89). TL;DR: There's no problem with the city being perfectly fine, the floor IS lava, but Tau escaped upwards. Cut off from the empire? That's the true bullshit. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 09:22, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
I'd like you to point out one section in the book, anywhere, where it says that Farsight has ships in the area that he uses in any way, shape or form. I'd also like to know how they got past the Imperial Ships. I also did account for them using that way to escape, even if they have to go up they still have to go through fire, and I don't know where you got the idea that there was no fire on top of them: "Before they left orbit, the Imperial forces had somehow ignited the strange fusion of gasses that swirled around the giant planet’s northern hemisphere. The chain reaction sent unnatural firestorms sweeping over the lands." There's also no mention that the base might be above the cloud cover, or that the fire only burns below the cloud cover. Yes I know that "over the lands" is not usually meant to be taken literally, but since the atmosphere of the planet is what's on fire here, it is quite literally "over the lands." I also know that the part you're referencing is from the Tau controlling the storms on the planet, not something that normally happens (I honestly don't know why the Imperials were so shocked given that they can do that too, but then again this book is terrible), but you want to know why that wouldn't work against the fire? "The chain reaction sent unnatural firestorms sweeping over the lands. This was beyond the enviro-engines’ ability to halt or control." So they can't do anything about the fire, it's completely uncontrollable on the planet. Another thing about the fire on the planet, and perhaps the biggest reason we cannot assume that they're safe in moving up into the ships, the planet is in the middle of the Damocles Gulf, and the whole gulf is on fire! The planet is quite literally in the middle of the inferno, the place where ships cannot cross, because the Tau don't have the shields to do so. Even if the base reached above the fire on the planet or the fire was somehow able to be controlled so it didn't go above the base, he'd have to station ships in the inferno to pull him out, which would destroy them, according to the book. As for how the gulf is burning though, according to the book, the reason the Damocles Gulf can burn is because it's a nebula, which still shouldn't burn but it does because this book is terrible. I also agree that the Tau being cut off is complete bullshit on multiple levels, not only are there are longer ways around (space is three dimensional after all) But Farsight crosses the uncrossable gulf without any incident of any kind! That's another reason I assume he just walked through the air to get to the planet and then back again. Also for how the Tau travel now, GW gave them the Necrons old FTL, you know, the ones they thought were way too OP? They kind of explain this away by saying that it's a lesser version, so the Tau don't have to use the Warp anymore while still being unable to go anywhere they please. -- Triacom (talk) 13:45, 26 December 2015 (UTC)
a) P.53 Farsight arrived in stealth transports while the rest of his small fleet hid. b) I already told you: there was a ring of calmness around the hive, aircraft flying within confirm it. c) "The atmosphere was on fire" Nope. The pollution (the "mix of gases") was the thing on fire, and it was set on a hurricane pattern beforehand - both of those things are confined to the troposphere, aka, the cloud cover. There's no mention of it, but that's how things are (on Earth anyway). Thus it's a hurricane of fire on the northern hemisphere, with a generous dose of fire on the southern one (but less), and all of that in the troposphere (so, wherever Sternshield was he's still alive). Hives are taller than that, yet it doesn't matter because they're surrounded by a ring of fire that isn't touching them. d) "Beyond the enviro engines to control" as in they cannot turn off the fires or shape them - the hurricane will keep on swirling. e) He didn't need to cross anything. Both Prefectia and the Enclaves are on the same side of the firewall. "It's not a wall, Nebula means they're swimming in fire somehow" you'll say. I doubt the fire is everywhere, as the Tau navy were the ones giving the bad news, and most of them came from the Dovar system (p. 12). Thus, the main difficulty for Farsight's extraction wasn't the fire but the need to evade the Tau fleet. If fire was truly everywhere, Voltoris would be stranded, and I doubt the Mechanicum would do that to a Knight world (althought that'd be good because they're rebuilding). I feel like the devil's advocate lol -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 17:48, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
A) Ah good, thanks for the page number as I see what I missed as far as how Farsight entered: "Unable to match the Imperial Fleet in battle, Farsight employed prototype Shi’oni class cloaked ships to enter the contested atmosphere." B)&C)&D) However the pollution was around the entire planet (even if it temporarily wasn't above the fortress at the time), and when they say that the enviro-engines can't control it, I'm pretty sure that means they can't control it. Being able to keep the environment in a hurricane pattern IS being able to control it. Adding a lot of heat and pressure to a storm would cause it to de-stabalize, which is why flammable gases being ignited on Earth doesn't cause them to retain their original structure. At absolute best it would be a violent reaction. E) Now for this one: "He didn't need to cross anything. Both Prefectia and the Enclaves are on the same side of the firewall." Yeah, they are, and the fighting took place on Agrellan, not Prefectia (you're getting it mixed up with a the bad prequel). "I doubt the fire is everywhere" Sorry but I'm going to have to heavily disagree here, if the book says "The news they brought was worse still. Fires did not burn upon Mu’gulath Bay alone; the strange phenomenon known as the Damocles Gulf had become a roiling inferno." Then I've got pretty good reason to believe that the Damocles Gulf is a roiling inferno. Also how would the Knight World be stranded? They don't have to travel through space like the Tau do, they travel through the Warp which bypasses everything, even if they're forced to evacuate as the world burns then that's just 40k for you. It's perfectly fine playing the Devil's Advocate though, without it I wouldn't have learned a few things. -- Triacom (talk) 22:06, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
Woops, my mistake, it was a typo. What I meant to say was "Both Agrellan and the Enclaves and on the same side of the firewall"; I know Prefectia was on Kauyon and Mont'Ka was entirely on Agrellan. E) And they are on the same side: remember there are no worlds within the gulf, all those worlds are on the periphery of it - "the Tau had successfully crossed the Damocles Gulf and begun to explore the cluster of worlds on the other side" (Farsight Enclaves p.32 (digital)). "But the map!" Agrellan is within crossable space, surrounded by impassable sections of the gulf. Surrounded, but not immersed within it (I colored the image to show it, but it's rather embarrasing to show, lol) TL;DR: When I say I doubt the whole gulf is aflame, I'm saying the difficult-to-cross anomaly ("the strange phenomenon") was the actual thing on fire, ie, it's truly sealed now, as opposed to "all the literal space between the worlds was aflame". B&C&D) Clear skies over Agrellan Prime, ie pollution everywhere but there. Then it comes to the point where I say that a hurricane of pollution set alight would continue to roll and you say it wouldn't. I say fire whirls enable the possibility of a fire hurricane (ie they'd be safe even without the ability to control it). Let us be reminded the gas isn't inside a container so the extra heat wouldn't mean a pressure spike as inside an piston engine (but it does increase, tho), but it'd translate into expansion, thus increased speed as in a gas turbine. And the faster a hurricane rotates, the bigger the calm-eye becomes. But I also say "who knows lol", because this is scifi. IMO, one of the virtues of books is the fact your mind auto-fills in the pariahs blanks, even with terrible writing. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 06:45, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
You can't take anything as being within the passable sections anymore (and when I say this I mean that you can't assume there's a safe way to get from it to somewhere esle), because the book says: "Those labyrinthine passageways that it had taken the Tau so long to discover were untenable once again." So even if he can somehow find a way to get off the planet, he has no way of leaving the nebula safely. Keep in mind too I'm saying that I don't think they'd have any way of controlling the fire, because the book says they don't. Everything except letting the fire do what it's going to naturally do would be controlling it, and that includes the artificial hurricane that machines are required to maintain. Also if the hurricane protected Agrellan Prime, why did everything outside of the fortress die? The fortress is a very small section when compared to the rest of it, so the fire could not be confined to being outside of it, otherwise the citizens would have been safe for a time. The problem that arises with most sci-fi, and especially this book, is when it contradicts what's already been established. -- Triacom (talk) 07:39, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
The "passable sections" stuff is actually from Damocles Warzone p. 9, thus meaning there's a safe way from the anomaly going from right around Agrellan all the way to Dovar unless retconned. About the hurricane and the relative sizes of the eye, the Tau stronghold and the hive's ruins (the stronghold was built on top of it, right?) Tau non-combatants were at the very middle of the shield...right where the Eversor struck (the hab centers). And was it truly a small section? Agrellan was to become a full sept world, and Tau make their own mega cities too, just look at Dal'yth's hexagons. Say Taugrellan Prime had an area as big as London (why specifically London? Well the prospect of bombers flying over it reminded me about the battle over London, lol). That'd mean a diameter of about 70 km, barely fitting within the eye (regular diam 65km, up to 320km for Typhoon Carmen in 1960). But now that I re-read the part where they ferry Stormsurges within the storm and the grav columns pierced the clouds, wouldn't Mantas be able to evacuate personnel the same way? After all, it looks like those grav tunnels are kinda isolated. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 19:09, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
And the impassable sections stuff is from the ending of this book, where they say that all of the formerly passable sections are now impassable. I also didn't say the city was small, quite the opposite, I pointed out that if the eye was supposed to protect them and could contain it, why did everyone outside the base (this includes the hab centers) die? I'm also sure they could pull things off of the planet, and I'm just as sure that nothing they pulled out could survive the journey. Even if we say the hurricane keeps the fire outside Agrellan Prime, something killed all of the civilians that were inside of there instantly, so if they tried to leave by going up, then whatever killed the civilians would kill the evacuees. -- Triacom (talk) 22:35, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
It is the labyrinthine passages through the sponge-like anomaly the ones that got sealed, not the calm space from Agrellan to Dovar and beyond. "Why everyone outside the base died?" Because of the fire, of course xD. Aaaah, are you asking why so many Tau died, if they were supposedly protected? No, those died because they were harassing the retreating imperials on their days-long evacuation when the gas was set alight, far away from the base. As for some specific hab centers burning, where does it say that? Now that I re-read it, however, turns out the hurricane had ended before the firestorm. Without spinning, a ring of calmness would indeed collapse when set alight, no doubt (thus much of text becomes useless, it is you who should have pointed this out to me xD). Good thing their Manta cheese allows them to evacuate through fire and flames®, right? (this gives me an idea for another grimdark songwriting). -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 21:47, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

So you're saying the only tricky part of the nebula is the part around Agrellan? I find that hard to believe since that would mean the Tau could have just gone around it. As for their hab centers burning: "Anything not beneath a protective shield dome was doomed. And only a single shield dome remained – the massive one that spread over Lo’vasht’au" which was their base. I honestly still say that nobody should have been able to leave, and also this book is so poorly written it's hard to keep track of where anything starts and ends (like when the Mechanicus fought, then left, then fought but did nothing, then left off-screen). It gets to the point that the writer forgot all about the Tau supposedly having very little troops (relatively), so they always have more than enough to counter the Imperials. -- Triacom (talk) 22:15, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

On the contrary, you kinda read the opposite of what I wrote (I hope I wrote it correctly): The only safe zone of the nebula is around Agrellan. That's why they needed to take that unremarkable world, it was because it lied in the only safe corridor out of the Damocles anomaly the same way Cadia is at the doorstep of the Eye but still entirely within realspace, being technically at the periphery while encroached by the warp, you can still arrive and depart from Cadia without major incident, and if the Eye became utterly impassable Cadia would still be accessible. Hell, I'd call this one the Agrellan gate! As for the Tau hab centers, those were inside the dome. As you can read from the Eversor section (ie the part you ignored the most) "The largest of Earth caste science domes was under attack. As Shadowsun had taken the vast majority of the Fire caste on her perimeter attack, there were few troops within the central compound of Lo'vasht'au". They say "everything" because a lot of stuff wasn't inside the shield, namely all the ground the Tau lost, all the Tau skirmish party and 50% of the human survivors. All of that burned. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 01:03, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
I think there's been a misunderstanding, I was always arguing that it should be impossible for Farsight to get off the planet and back to his enclaves, if you want to say that the planet is safe from the corrosive nebula then I'd definitely agree, though I think you'd also have to agree that there shouldn't be any way to escape it now unless you have Warp travel. I also ignored the Eversor the most because I figured it should be obvious why Farsight doesn't stand a snowflake's chance in hell at taking down an Eversor, not to mention part of that section is a bit of a problem with the Tau city. Much like the Tau's military, the city itself seems to grow and shrink in size, if we're going by the description near there, it's relatively small and barely encompasses more than the fortress (saying that it's just a foundation whereas in other places it's a lot more). -- Triacom (talk) 08:25, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
A) Right there, there's the misunderstanding - what I'm saying is that not only Agrellan is safe from the corrosion but also the safe passage beyond it. Thus, it is safe to travel from and to Agrellan (except for the whole "the surface's on fire" issue), at least from the Imperial side. B) I see no problem with the city. The Eversor would indeed kill Farsight easily, but crunch-wise only if he was on his own. The Eversor inflicts about 1.5 wounds on Farsight, and you'd need about 27 attacks to defeat the Eversor. Luckily Farsight Bombs. It boils down to wether the writer wants to represent the fluff or the crunch...and this is a rulebook. It's the same way a Land Raider is supposed to kill an entire continent yet one Lascannon can put it down. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 18:59, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
What Passage is there for the Tau beyond Agrellan? I thought we both agreed that it was still in the middle of the nebula. My problem with the city is it changes in size so I have no idea how big it actually is, sometimes it's a foundation, sometimes it's a city. That's just another thing I chalk up to shitty writing though. As far as the Eversor causing Wounds goes and Farsight hitting him back, I don't think you included all of the following: Frenzon, Furious Charge, Preferred Enemy (he was part of an execution force) and his pistol+sword (8 attacks on the charge), though I went into the mathhammer below, the end result being that he cannot survive a mathhammer fight regardless of how injured the assassin is and considering the fluff for them is even more ridiculous than the crunch, he shouldn't have stood a chance there either (let alone somehow match speed with one and shoot it point-blank twice). -- Triacom (talk) 19:57, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
You know what, I probably forgot about the calm passage given how that's something I think they went into in Kauyon as well, though I'll stick by that the book says all safe passages became impassable, so they shouldn't have been able to escape that way. -- Triacom (talk) 20:01, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
  • So I just realized something else, on page 87, 200 or so Raven Guard get behind the Tau battle-line and slaughter them, in page 88 Shrike is assessing the situation but is still clearly behind enemy lines, so what happens? How exactly does 200 Space Marines in melee range with the Tau amount to nothing? Shouldn't this completely unforeseen attack (the book does say they had no idea the Raven Guard were coming) have just killed any chance they had at defending their positions, since even Farsight makes note that the Space Marines not being killed could allow the Imperial Guard to break out of whatever trap they were heading into (I honestly don't know what trap it was since it seemed like a standard Tau gunline, not even an ambush)? I know the book says Farsight leaves to hunt Space Marines, but he was hunting the ones caught in the ambush, and Shrike and his two companies were not. -- Triacom (talk) 08:43, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
    • RG's counter-ambush killed lots of infantry and forced them to flee, but Farsight's army is mainly made up by Crisis suits, with regular infantry being more like support troops. They did know marines were going to infiltrate the battlefield, but who could prepare against an ambush? Having the Devilfishes nearby and their eyes open, that was their remedy, if any. The trap was placing holograms to make the marines deep strike on the wrong place, while he countered with a Crisis on a vertical battle, as well with concealed troops and booby traps. After the Firewarriors embark away in their transports (or are killed), the beakies look for something else to kill. After getting many officers sniped and their comms blocked by the storm, they resort to hit & run tactics like chaplain Torovac had done earlier. This is when Shrike's excerpt happens. Farsight then decides hunting dispersed marines is taking too long and decides to commit some of his forces to help Shadowsun utterly crush the siege (which she is doing just fine on her own), yet recieves a distress call from an undefended civilian sector... -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 09:55, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
I got that they caused the Tau to flee, but where are you getting Shrike and his companies resorting to hit and run tactics from exactly? Not to mention, when we last see Shrike, he was near several Fire Warriors, not battlesuits, which is why he's still in the midst of the Tau gunline, and there's no reason to believe he's been separated from his two companies either, so what happened? I know that the trap was supposed to have the Marines get shot to pieces by Crisis suits, but Shrike and his companies never fight any Crisis suits when they infiltrate (once again, he was near Fire Warriors that he and his marines shouldn't have had any problems tearing apart). -- Triacom (talk) 11:21, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
Because that's what they usually do when in doubt (like Torovac in Kauyon p.34), it's not the first time it has happened. It's also prone to happen when your officers are perfectly sniped and comms are jammed - "We killed some infantry, what next? BZZZZZZZ". Shrike even says there was no time for planning now they were in the trap in the trap. Also, if you kill a unit or make it fall back, are you still in the middle of a gunline? Furthermore, where they arrived was more of a parking lot than a proper firebase, with the mention of them having just disembarked. And the trap wasn't entirely dependant on Crisis suits. Reread it and compare the units present to the listed formations of a Farsight list. If anything, they encountered everything from Ranged Support Cadres to Piranhas spamming infinite missiles. Afterwards it says the ambush killed around half the marines present. Luckily the Ravens don't hang on plain sight to get killed, so I believe most of the casualties were White Scars. Should this melee ambush have had more impact? Yes, I think they're downplaying it. Do notice, however, that Shrike's excerpt shows yet more mechanized infantry reserves, and the Ravens came from the ground, which meant little for the snipers in the rooftops and the flying suits and drones. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 11:40, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
Inb4 "You said it was mostly Crisis suits". It's something one'd easily assume, I kept on reading a little and then posted the previous comment. This was a Kauyon after all. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 11:49, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
Firstly, I guess it's okay to assume that's what they'd do, however the only officer in their group they've had killed was their Librarian, however even if that's what they fell back on, they were still performing hit and runs against Fire Warriors, not Crisis Suits. Secondly, Shrike is reflecting on how the Space Marines in general were baited into a trap, he and his companies still didn't fall into one, and I would say he's in the middle of their gunline considering that he's still behind enemy lines and actively chasing them (keep in mind, Shrike and his marines did not arrive at the same spot as the other marines). Thirdly, any excerpt that refers to the marines caught in the ambush cannot be used to tell how good or bad Shrike and his companies were doing, since they didn't get caught by it. The last time we see them, Shrike destroys a drone and is still with the two companies, and is about to fall upon a new group of Fire Warriors. At no point after he ambushes the Tau does it say he fights any Crisis Suits (even Farsight goes to hunt down the "pockets" of marines that weren't killed in the ambush, which again, is not Shrike or his two companies). -- Triacom (talk) 20:20, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
The only officer "mentioned" to be killed, but VIP sniping is a thing Tau always do. Still, no comms hurts the battle plan. Yes, Shrike reflects marines in general were baited...but what makes Ravens separate from "Marines in general" (as in, they too attacked a sub-optimal place, namely the parking lot instead of the rooftops, thus, were also "less-than-best" footed)? I'd say the Raven ambush lost moment after killing those Strike teams and they resorted to the hit and run attacks they know and love, which is by no means a bad thing - the exact same thing happens in Kauyon when Shrike makes a gap on the Tau death ring so that Khan escapes alive. I'm not saying they faced Crisis suits, I'm arguing that killing those Strike Teams wasn't a killing blow (ha!) to Farsight because his ambush consisted of many more things. And I wouldn't call roaming hunter teams a "gunline". About the number of survivors he had on his excerpt it's a little unspecified. Nothing says it can't be those 2 companies, sure. But why is he trying to contact Solaq's 5th? If he was attached to Shrike's ambush, then that means there's only 1 company with him in his excerpt. That doesn't mean the other company died, only that they got separated. In the end they enact a fighting withdrawal to help the Scars (and themselves) to a safe zone. TL;DR: Ravens kill stuff but there's yet lots of stuff to be killed, get some casualties and resort to guerrilla fighting, but sniping and the storm means they can't coordinate as they wish and decide to help their Scars buddies out of the trap. And that's how ~200 marines in melee get downplayed and contribute little against Farsight's Tau, little enough he decides he can go reinforce the main battle. Fun note: the sniper drone isn't using the correct weapon. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 21:33, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
Sub-optimal place? He came out of the tunnels and wasn't close to the area the other marines were caught in. Their main objective was to massacre the Tau Fire Warriors, and they did (in fact, they attacked the Tau at their "jumping off point", the section the Tau were at while they were waiting to join the attack, they didn't attack the parking lot). I'm also not saying that killing those Strike Teams should have ruined the Tau's plans, I'm saying the fact that ~200 Marines running rampant after their ambush (yes I'm using that to refer to their hit and run attacks, since they can move very quickly) should have ruined the Tau's plans. Since he was still signaling the Marines with him, contacting Solaq was most likely to tell him to get out of the trap. Nothing in the passage before, or the excerpt indicates he was separated from his two companies. "Sniping and the storm means they can't coordinate as they wish and decide to help their Scars buddies out of the trap" Where are you getting this from? Shrike coordinates with his two companies through hand signals, when he finds he's unable to contact anybody he goes after more Fire Warriors. I suppose if you're pointing out that the Sniper Drone isn't using the correct weapon I'll also point out the Space Marines have scanners that would have told them the holograms are fake, but the writer not knowing shit about either army is par for the course at this point. Also if you're assuming that going to help the White Scars was what he wanted to do, helping out the Imperial Guard was also what he wanted to do, so you can't assume he'd pick one over the other. -- Triacom (talk) 22:02, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
There's a reason I said "Sub-optimal" instead of "Bad place". Their main objective was to kill everyone, not just firewarriors. I call it parking lot because it's where Devilfishes were parked. Still, it's not like their deployment zone was an option - they took what they could, and didn't suffered from it like the poor sods in drop pods. Dude, Shrike is trying to contact Solaq, wouldn't that mean Solaq is leading half of the force and got separated from Shrike? Then again...who are the guys in the pods? I thought those were the Scars that needed assistance. And yes, I think Shrike would prioritize rescuing the ones he has near rather than trying to reach the guardsmen. "Snipers and the storm means they can't coordinate as they wish", kinda hard to make plans when you're being hunted and the radio is dead. Now, coordinating all 200 marines with hand signals in the middle of a storm with low visibility? Don't think so, that's why I assumed he had less marines in his immediate vicinity (unless the ravens stood in 100 m^2 shoulder-by-shoulder instead of trying to not be seen). I do believe that, if the Ravens had been allowed to coordinate amongst themselves and the Scars, Farsight would have an extremely harder time (and that would have been fair and balanced instead of a one-sided fight the book was). Alas, that was not the case. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 22:33, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
Oh, now I see why you're calling it a parking lot, I thought you were referring to the wide open area that the marines were tricked into attacking. "Dude, Shrike is trying to contact Solaq, wouldn't that mean Solaq is leading half of the force and got separated from Shrike?" No. There was more than one force infiltrating through the tunnels and approaching from above ground, so he's most likely the one in charge of one of those assaults. Also Space Marines have implants specifically designed to let them accurately see at ridiculous distances, its how Severax spotted not Shadowsun when he was really high up and the stealth field was in effect, it's not unrealistic for Shrike to communicate to his captains, who communicate to the sergeants, who communicate to the squads, that's called the chain of command. Also they're inside the eye of the storm since they're inside the city by that point, otherwise the Tau wouldn't have been able to accurately shoot them either. Furthermore, let's assume he goes to help the White Scars, how are they still unsuccessful in breaking through? ~200 marines attacking from an unexpected quarter and serving to back up other marines should still be devastating to the Tau force, especially since they're already not doing too well as far as numbers go, quite frankly it's amazing/bullshit they had enough to take on the Imperial Guard at the end, though since the author's a moron and forgot about the most basic of artillery and orbital strikes, not to mention effective ranges and the fact that they confused Mont'ka for Kauyon (I double checked, they call the Kauyon at the end a Mont'ka) I guess they didn't care about keeping track of the resources the Tau should/shouldn't have. -- Triacom (talk) 08:04, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
I see. So, Solaq led the first Raven contingent and Shrike brought 2 companies as reinforcements, thus bringing the total marines to a minimum of ~400 (counting the Scars), half of them free to roam about the battlefield, albeit constantly pursued by the enemy. I can't compare them to Farsight's numbers because I don't know how many he brought, or what a ShiOni's capacity is. But they were successful in breaking through...to the evac zone. The actual plan was to stall Tau mobile assets (which is stupid, since they only needed to assault the shield generators, kinda like what they did at the beginning of this very book), so mission accomplished? In order to take the fight to the fortress in a meaningful way they would need to deepstrike onto it (I'd think the drop pods would bounce off the shield...but the Eversor succeeded at it), so that means disengage, get back to orbit and down again. I mean, there were 200 marines free to reinforce the main battle, but they decided to help the other marines rather than getting wasted in a frontal clash of superheavies. And just when all marines were free from the trap they hear about the change of IG command and turn towards Shrike like asking "do we keep it up?" But he says no because IG is in full retreat. And yes, the battle at the end isn't a Mont'Ka nor a Kauyon, it's one of those Siege Assault Vanguard things the imperium is so adept at. The Tau beating them at their own game is bollocks, even with the "let them advance and then we shoot them from behind" tactic. I mean, as an author, how would you keep marines from Sweep Advancing everyone in the fortress? -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 18:48, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
"I mean, as an author, how would you keep marines from Sweep Advancing everyone in the fortress?" That's exactly my question, as soon as the Raven Guard had freed the White Scars, there's no real reason for them not to press their advantage. If the marines were only free from the trap after the change in command, that would make sense, however Farsight leaves to go kill them, then comes back after having done so to several marines, whereupon he gets attacked by the assassins. So what should have happened if Shrike goes to help the other marines is Farsight goes to kill them, and is ripped to pieces by Shrike and several hundred marines. Considering too that they're right near an entrance of the fortress and both Shrike and his two companies have Jump Packs (based on their usual fighting style and how they arrived, not to mention followed Shrike in the first place), I don't get why, after helping the other marines, they didn't just dive right in. The worst resistance they would have faced is Fire Warriors at most, and we already know how that played out. -- Triacom (talk) 19:56, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
But Farsight HAS to win! This book is called Mont'Ka and his wasn't a really crippling blow, he has to win at something in this book, never mind the whole "Buy some Tau" approach to the campaign. About Farsight's movements, what are you talking about? The marines come, he ends up killing about half of them (leaving Shrike's companies and the survivors) and then goes to help in the main battle, leaving half his force behind. He never went anywhere to kill marines - he kinda was already there, hidden. About the "change in command" they do break out of the trap after Farsight leaves and then hear about Troskzer being replaced while they were preparing to redeploy, that's why they don't go return to help the IG. Because they were totally going to. Shrike vs Farsight would have been pushing Farsight's luck too much. Surviving two assassins was enough, having to face Shrike too? Good thing he left. Although, considering his fluff in the Enclaves supplement he'd inflict lots of plasma wounds on them, lose several suits and then flee instead of staying and facing them in melee (being red he goes fasta), with the marines on pursuit. That would have been a rather nice setup for another Kauyon, they should have written that. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 20:59, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
Oh I see now, he was there the whole time but they just don't mention him until much later. Then I've got another question, why didn't Shrike and his men kill him and/or his crisis suit teams? He'd have at least seen him, especially if he went to go help the other marines, and you're telling me he decided to just let the enemy commander go? Also Troskzer was only replaced after the main battle had been lost, because the Tau literally become invincible, since the weapons of Imperial Knights literally bounce off of them. Are you seriously trying to tell me that the marines were stuck fighting the Tau without any progress whatsoever for that long? Your suggestion is a lot more reasonable though, having Farsight flee because Shrike and 200+ marines are after him would have been far better. -- Triacom (talk) 21:59, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
Much to our dismay, the one battle of Farsight's Crisis vs Marines happens in the background. The ONE thing I wanted to read and it happened offscreen. I'd think Farsight would have kept on harrying the marines that deepstriked (Solaq?) while keeping his distance from Shrike's companies because he saw the clusterfuck that was Dal'yth and he himself wrote the Mirror Codex...but I cannot prove it because it happened (?) offscreen. And yes, Farsight's trap kept them busy that long, the whole plan was to keep marines out of the main engagement, while the imperial's plan was to tie Tau elite mobile assets (ie Farsight) so they couldn't perform Mont'Kas. Basically both sides tried to attack each other's elites to keep them out of the siege, technically both worked, if to a varying degree. About the invincible Stormsurges (I knew you'd point this out) they were equipped with Shield generators, the same way the first time Hammerheads opened fire on Knights most shots bounced off their shields - Tau do innovate. Then the author ruins the lesson by turning the Stormsurges into Mary Sues and they never fail their saves. And they do outrange both Hellhammers and Stormlords, aka half the superheavies the IG brought. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 23:09, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
You know what the difference is between the Stormsurge suits and the Knights when they take damage is? Let's look at the description for the Knights under enemy fire: "The ion shields of the Imperial Knights shimmered, struggling to disperse the incoming fire of the awaiting KV128 Stormsurges." Now let's look at the description for the Stormsurges under enemy fire: "High King Tybalt roared, but his rage was as ineffective as his gatling cannon – the shells bursting harmlessly off the Tau ballistic suits." You know what the difference is? When the Tau fired on the Knights, their shots hit shields, when the Knights fired on the Tau, they didn't hit shields, they hit the suits and did nothing at all despite being specifically designed to penetrate that level of armour. Also the Stormsurge's main cannon, the one that cripples both Knights and destroys Foebreaker, DOESN'T outrange any the baneblade variants (maybe I should have been more specific on the main page, but I thought it should be obvious given how they're destroyed). Unless I've missed a supplement somewhere, they've still got a good 6" on it, which is important because the Tau's main cannon becomes a lot weaker the farther away the enemy is. In addition they don't outrange any ranged weapons the Knights have either (and in fact some Knights can shoot over twice as far). -- Triacom (talk) 23:34, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
If the shots burst "harmlessly off the suits" that makes it obvious they are now shielded, how else could it happen? Oh, that's right: Gargantuan creatures have FnP(5+) and Tybalt's Gatling gun is S6, so it actually does 1.77W to a 8W creature, ie. they can toughen it up. But maybe you're still unconvinced, so let's reread the very same page: "With it's own SHIELDS shrugging off the combined firepower of an entire company of super-heavy battle tanks, the nearest Stormsurge fired its Pulse Driver Cannon". You though they were firing the hideously short-ranged Pulse Blastcannon? And about the weaponry, Pulse Driver: 72" S10, Baneblade cannon S9 72", Vulcan Mega-bolter S6 60", Gatling gun: 36" S6, Hellhammer cannon S10 36". So it is the Tau the ones who can outrange a Hellhammer. In that particular scene I didn't read anyone outranging anyone, however. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 00:33, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
Your quote only helps to prove my point, if the shots burst harmlessly off the suits, then that means they didn't hit the shields, they hit the suits. Every time a shot is reflected off of shields it says so, even for the Stormsurge suits. Also if the shots bounce off "harmlessly" then that means they caused no harm whatsoever to the suits, whereas Wounds are battle damage that something can take without being taken out of the action. I'll admit I misread what the Stormsurge suits were armed with, so they have equal range to a lot of the Knights, and there's actually less reason for them to have caused as much damage as they did due to a much slower fire rate, since they wipe out half of the contingent Tybalt arrived with somehow (that's a fucking lot of Knights). Considering that for most of the nobles the shields aren't any better or worse than the Stormsurge suits that's quite an accomplishment (especially since the Tau shields held up for a lot longer under more punishing conditions), and I know they had hammerheads helping too, but seriously how many hammerheads could they have had left at that point considering their resources were strained at an earlier battle? As far as outranging goes though, even with the Pulse Driver the Tau still can't outrange some of the cannons and missiles the Knights have, apparently those Knights just didn't feel like shooting. -- Triacom (talk) 01:43, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
A) Srsly? It explicitly says those Stormsurges were shielded. And nothing from Codex:Knights outranges the Stormsurges, only matches 72". The Banesword is the one with the most range. Honestly, you've got me consulting like 5 books here. B) I'd attribute the defeat of the Imperial Knights to the author, who had their Ion shields "deplete" from so many impacts (Hammerheads + Gunrigs + Stormsurges + any Tau Heavy Support?) while the Stormsurges don't fail any save. Notice how the Obsidian Knight doesn't give a fuck because Obsidian Knight, even after it was MIA...on another planet (but I'm happy it returned nonetheless). -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 02:58, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
After you corrected me on their range I didn't say the Knights outranged the Stormsurge suits, I just said they didn't outrange some weapons the Knights had (that doesn't mean the Knights outranged them). I guess I should have said they have the same range, and to be honest during this conversation I've also been flipping through several books too. I also pointed out then when something hits a shield, the book says it hits a shield, whereas the shells are described as hitting the suit. Honestly the book should have said the shells caused damage, but it was mostly superficial (all that armour plating should at least be useful for soaking up some damage). Another thing too with some of the Knights (freeblades) is that some of them act like Daemons (or an awesome version of Draigo) in that they'll show up in areas they obviously don't really have any way of getting to, then vanish once the fight's over (so at least that's one aspect the book got right). -- Triacom (talk) 04:25, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
Ah, that's what you meant, allright. Regarding Stormsurge shields, those are weird, but they are definitely there: "To their dismay, the Stormsurges had shield generators of their own...the solid ordnance that found its mark exploded harmlessly on thick thermoplastic plating" (Kauyon p.95). That's how I'd represent a FnP save over a fail-to-wound, seems like that plating is soaking damage. Crunchwise tho, they'd kill each other on turn 15, Knights outdamaging Stormsurges but the later having more health - assuming the Ion shield is always aimed right, the battlecannon never scatters off mark and the Stormsurge isn't squatting. It's not like Stormsurges suddenly became invulnerable, they were portrayed that way from the beginning (Gotta sell them all!). Yet hillariously the Obsidian Knight kills one with "Rocks fall, the Stormsurge dies". -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 06:54, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
I re-read that section, when they say the Ordnance "found its mark" they're referring to the Ordnance that got through the shields, here I'll change the quote slightly to prove it: "To their dismay, the Stormsurges had shield generators of their own, powerful enough to dissipate a direct hit from a thermal cannon, and [even] the ordnance that found its mark exploded harmlessly on thick thermoplastic plating." To be honest too I had forgotten that they were always invincible, though if we're going to be completely fair to the lore the Stormsurge should either be given proper vehicle stats (roughly AV12 all around 8 Hull Points), or the Knights should be given organic stats (preferably around T8, W8) because the stats right now for the Stormsurge are bullshit. It's just the author making it a gargantuan creature because they don't want it to have the weaknesses it should have, and I've hated it since they've started doing things like that. -- Triacom (talk) 07:50, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
Be as it may, the Stormsurges endure. I would have preferred them to be shootier versions of Knights, but with Riptides being MCs it felt natural for this one to be a Gargantuan creature, and swapping explosions for FnP they kinda lend themselves to be more of the resilient kind. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 08:55, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
When I said I hated it since they've started doing it, I meant I hated how the Riptides got that treatment too. They're hard to bring down, their cost combined with their resilience means they can almost always make way more than their points back and with markerlights they're just a broken model in general. Going back to 6th edition for a second (from what I remember it's when they started this bullshit), I don't see why it makes any sense for a Riptide to take on two dreadnoughts, both armed with close combat weapons, and have an almost guaranteed win. Thinking about it another way, maybe the book was written by somebody who only plays the game and knows nothing about the lore, and presumably they only play Tau against really shitty opponents. -- Triacom (talk) 10:22, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
True, it's too fluffy when it should be crunchier. Then again, coming from Crisis suits being infantry it kinda felt natural Riptides were MCs, not that it was the best move. Maybe they should have given them Centurion stats (although I think Centurions should become MCs). Maybe remove their Smash and it starts making more sense. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 18:24, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
Crisis suits I was fine with because that just felt like a slightly larger version of Terminator Armour, same with broadsides, Riptides was were it got ridiculous. When Riptides don't have access to smash it does make a lot more sense (they're not even all that weaker without it if you give them hit and run), I can guarantee that from friendly games. -- Triacom (talk) 21:13, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
I actually forgot to address Farsight vs marines, so firstly, Shrike is still attacking from an unexpected quarter with an amount of marines the Tau never prepared for, so how are they tied down for that long? How does 200 marines still not change Farsight's battle plan in the slightest? I guess we'll just have to assume Farsight's mary-sue powers he acquired pulled him through the battle (presumably he called a time-out) and 200 marines behind Tau lines literally did fucking nothing. -- Triacom (talk) 23:40, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
I don't know, and no one knows because it wasn't seen, but isn't like the Tau didn't prepared for so many marines, they just didn't prepare for those marines being there, because they did plan being busy for that long - "This delay was not unanticipated, however, as it was known that the Space Marines would be worthy adversaries". And yeah, he IS a Mary Sue! Don't you remember when he killed a Warboss in melee? Conveniently, that was also on behind the scenes! Don't be mistaken tho, Farsight really is a tactical genious. His strategy at Arkunasha was to make lots of Orks kill each other, even by broadcasting ork insults at the right time. If someone is resourceful, it's that red armoured bastard. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 00:33, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
That's pretty much what I mean (whoops, forgot to say "that many marines flanking them"), not to mention when it says "This delay was not unanticipated" it's referring to the marines caught in the trap, because right after it says "Despite losing half of their number in the initial Tau ambushes, the remaining Space Marines were proving difficult to eliminate." Which is also referring to the marines in the trap. Being flanked should have finished off the Tau in that area, and if this were well written probably even finished off Farsight with the marines taking large losses in the melee, but I guess Farsight's just too "awrsom" to lose any fight, which is why the Farsight Enclaves read like it was his own personal fanfic that he wanted to jerk off to every night. I won't say he didn't have good ideas (and in retrospect his tactics at Arkunasha actually backfired on him, before he came up with the idea of beating the Orks in melee and it somehow worked) but Phil Kelly and whoever wrote this (presumably Phil because he has a very hard time writing anything that isn't one-sided) went into near Matt Ward levels of Mary Sue with him. The only reason I say he's not above anything Matt Ward wrote is because he didn't carve a name into a Primarch's heart after killing his bodyguard, though I'm sure we'll see that in the next shitty Tau expansion because we can't possibly see the blueberries do badly at anything ever. Presumably this is why there's only ONE mention of the Marines using something other than bolters and melee weapons (conveniently, just like in the Farsight Enclaves book and I'm not even sure the missiles mentioned weren't hunter-killer missiles) which is why they all run into an obvious ambush and gunfire like they're lemmings being herded off a cliff instead of doing the smart thing and using their fucking heavy weapons in this really shitty book. -- Triacom (talk) 01:43, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
I'm inferring Shrike's companies as most of "the remaining marines", and they were difficult to eliminate because, yeah, it's Chapter Master Shrike we're talking about. Let's remember some Tau managed to flee (like always) and were able to report "we're being outflanked here, yo!". I think Farsight would engage them with nothing below Mechanized Infantry in Devilfishes (to shoot and flee), he's "awrsom" enough to know how to respond to that stuff because he wrote the damn book, I mean, remember they consulted the Mirrorcodex on Prefectia. Is Farsight a Mary Sue? Sure, the same way Creed is. I mean, how do you make a short-lived Tau relevant through centuries without turning him into such? At least Farsight can lose and realize he can't Mont'Ka everything, unlike more-tactical-than-you Creed. And before you try to MattWard him on his battle against the tyranids, he only stalled them like for 3 paragraphs, and it was O'Vesa the one who really saved the day. The Supplement reads like it was his fanfic because it's supposed to be read entirely from his point of view, and that inevitably downplays the views of everyone else. That's why other things besides bolters are rarely mentioned (and they're mentioned in Mont'Ka...being sniped away lel). In fact one of the things I liked the most from that book was trying to identify each individual daemon he describes without knowing what they are. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 02:58, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
I'm just saying there's nothing to infer that those passages are referring to Shrike's marines, as I mention, they're specifically talking about the marines caught in the trap. You'd think too the Space Marines would be equipped to deal with a mechanized company, given how last time went and in fact, since they're carrying Krak grenades and wearing Jump Packs it seems like they are prepared (to just stay away from them the Tau vehicles would have to be going extremely fast). There's also a big difference between Creed and Farsight, Creed is a military genius (admittedly more so than he should be), whereas Farsight is a experienced and extremely intelligent political figure, a superb fighter, a military genius, a sage in tune with the natural elements and a natural savant at everything in the universe. The spelling of "awrsom" was also intentional since I don't know how to bring across as much sarcasm as that through correct spelling. You can make somebody a great commander without making them the greatest creature to ever grace the universe, just look at High Marshal Helbrecht before 6th Edition for an example of that. I also wasn't trying to Matt Ward him on the Tyranids, in fact that was one of the more believable sections of that book, not fully believable because it fully wipes out the fleet when it should have wiped out a large portion, but in the end that doesn't matter since the next planet the fleet attacked would have wiped them out anyway. The supplement also doesn't read like it's his point of view because it's all third person, it reads like Mont'ka does, as if it was presented as fact and not one persons point of view. Also if it was his point of view, they wouldn't have cut away from things only he knew or experienced and say they don't know what really happened when Farsight does. I can understand liking the Daemon section though, excluding the Dues Ex Machina that was the best and most believable section in that book. -- Triacom (talk) 04:25, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
A) Indeed, there's nothing that infers it because the author doesn't give you anything to work with - it's up to you to fill in that blank. Placing them with subtlety is nice, abusing them like this book does is just lazy writing, but that's what we got. So, did they just abandon their brothers in need? If they weren't helping marines and they didn't join the guardsmen either, then what were they doing? I proposed they were counter-ambushing the Tau and helping their brothers because it sounded like the most sensate thing to do IMO. What's your proposal about their offscreen actions, considering they reached the evac point instead of the front line? B) Would they really need to be extremely fast vehicles? Skimmers can move 24" a turn, Jump pack marines cannot hope to catch them, even with Raven Guard chapter tactics, now translate that to the fluff. Not to mention Farsight's Devilfishes are indeed Fast Skimmers the first turn (Counterstrike Cadre). C) Make Creed immortal, stick him inside a tech-suit and see what he becomes. And any general has to be proficient at politics - Farsight's first problems were political in the sense of "can't send you reinforcements, golden boy". The one who turned him into a Captain America figure was actually Aun'Va, and he also later marked him as such a traitor many wanted him dead, like Shadowsun did. The element part was undeniably cliche, tho, I chuckled so hard when reading it. Still, it reminded me about what that Titan Princeps said about using the elements in your favor, so at least it made some sense. TBH I'd like Farsight removed as a casualty sometime (the assassins were a good chance for this), like Azrael, but that'd be hard to achieve without killing him. Losing a leg and fainting by looking at chaos doesn't count, and beting a Warboss was an Aun'Shi-grade exaggeration. D) I know it was intentional and I understood it as such. I merely wanted to retort to that very same term. E) Should have said Tau perspective, focusing almost exclusively on Farsight and his reactions to stuff he doesn't know, like his disbelief orks crashland their craft, or when he encounters the human's own warsuits and tanksuits (which the reader already knows are Terminators and Dreadnoughts). Humanity and Daemons seen through Tau eyes, that's what I liked the most of that book. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 06:54, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
Well my proposal for what they do is either help the guardsmen or space marines, since you're leaning towards space marines and since that's the nearest fight I'm inclined to say they'd go there, however if they did then that should have gotten the other marines out of the trap (via counter-ambush, which I was never against) and doomed the Tau, though since what they and the White Scars did amounted to nothing, I really don't know what happened. Even if they left they'd just drop down somewhere else (and wouldn't need to fight their way out later on in the book), which didn't happen, though if I'm sticking to this book, I'm betting Farsight called a time-out and had them all stand there while his warriors shot them. For the vehicles, maybe I should have said moving fast, fast enough that they wouldn't reliably be able to get that many shots off and there's not really anywhere for them to go. As for Farsight's political ability, I get that strategists kind of have to be a political figure, however Farsight is so good at politics he's able to figure out how Aun'va thinks in the Farsight Enclaves and Mont'ka, where he figures out exactly why he does the things he does, and what he's going to do/say. That's going a little too far for somebody who's already a master of everything else. As for the Farsight Enclaves book, who wrote it all down then? Before 6th edition it was easy to tell that its only one view because of how its told, the events being chronicled in a way that reflects the faction, and the reason Farsight Enclaves reads like fact is because it tells you random thoughts/epiphanies Farsight has, but is otherwise third person. In other books when they put you into the mind of somebody they made sure to let you know that it was a small aside compared to the rest of the book, in Farsight Enclaves though they didn't really do that. There's no person/people that could have written all that down, and there's no room given in the book for any doubt, not to mention at no point does Farsight or anyone in the book make an incorrect assumption in the book that they're sticking with. If there was even one section there, for example if they assumed the various hive fleets had different mindsets or rulers to each other, or if they made a mistake like Kauyon does when they assume the Space Marines have a "King", but that never happens, they just figure out everything (them figuring out how the Orks reproduce was the dumbest thing, it was really just Phil giving them knowledge just because). -- Triacom (talk) 07:50, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
The did manage to escape the trap, although I disagree with them dooming the Tau because their habit is to disengage when they lose momentum, and they're good at fleeing. Time out, what are you talking about? That time it was the imperials the ones who called for a ceasefire, and only because they needed to kill other xenos first. And yeah, fast transports wont be shooting - who cares? Devilfishes are the equivalent of vanilla Razorbacks. Positioning sometimes is better than firing on the move. It's the Hammerheads the ones who should be shooting, and if you try to reach one squad they'll re-position themselves while another squad provides covering fire. And what you're saying about Farsight and Aun'Va could be resumed as "It's like they knew each other pretty well". Farsight even knows aliens pretty well, that's his main shtick - Far sighted. And by "Tau perspective focused on Farsight" I meant third person, the person being not an impartial narrator but another Tau one (non-specific individual Farsight's Enclaves Tau, just the point of view), I should have been more specific there. And at the end Farsight realizes Dal'yth was actually a huge Kauyon and he recognizes not everything in life is solved by Mont'Ka (supported by earlier experiences), as well as there is initial uncertainty about the enemies he faces...but then he understands...everything. He's like Ender, the best commander alive. But Ender doesn't have a jetpack and a sword... I wish Farsight was kinda bad at something. Kinda like Wolverine, who is pretty good at everything due to being immortal, yet he still punches his way forward because he's rather good at it and has a whole lot of other issues...hmm, Farsight kinda did that too (his hermit phase)? But hey, Shadowsun is good at mostly everything too (and she's actually angrier), it's kind of a trend for Tau commanders. And one of Kauyon's few mistakes, if any, was to believe the imperium was KO'ed for good, not that it failed KOing it in the first place. I mean, the Ravens recovered exceedingly fast. The other time I saw a similar recovery was with Alpharius. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 08:55, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
The reason I say the Tau would be doomed in that fight is because they had nowhere to go, now if they evacuated onto Farsights stealth ships while the Tau's Fire Caste held them off, that would have made sense, but they didn't. When I say time out, I mean like the kind you see at a football game, or the kind a elementary school teacher tells their students, it's about as cartoonish as everything else that happens. Fast transports kind of have to be shooting though, because they've got nowhere to go, it's a do or die scenario, you can't run away or else you're just going to get cornered or exposed to ordnance. Also those tactics about the Tau squads re-positioning would make sense if the Tau weren't so strained on resources, and the Imperials weren't. I doubt there'd be more suits than marines in that scenario given how much of a toll the last couple of battles should have taken. I also think that if Farsight has a shtick, it's like I said before, it's being good at everything. Everything comes naturally to him which is why I hold him in much worse regard than Creed. "at the end Farsight realizes Dal'yth was actually a huge Kauyon" which is what I'm getting at when I said that he knows what Aun'va thought, since A) There's no information he could have gained to clue him in on this knowledge and B) There's no way for Farsight to know how powerful the Imperium was, or that it wasn't attacking at its full strength. Here's how you can fix this, have him guess. That's it, just make him guess a few times without him finding out the answer, he doesn't have to just know the reason behind something every single time. There's also several bits of information presented in the Farsight Enclaves that they had no way of knowing or obtaining and are presented as fact. "I wish Farsight was kinda bad at something." And there's my main gripe with the character. No matter what he does, he's the best, he doesn't even have the excuse of being really experienced like a lot of immortal characters do, he was a savant at everything right from the beginning (yes I know how old he is now, that doesn't excuse his performance when he was younger). One thing I can say for Shadowsun at least, she's not that great at close combat and she's also not good at politics. She's a good marksman, a good tactician, and that's about it, even when she has knowledge of things she really shouldn't (which certainly happens in Kauyon), I can let that slide because she'll usually make a mistake sometime before or after this. -- Triacom (talk) 10:22, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
Who says Farsight's forces have nowhere to run? They're not being surrounded by IG, it was the Enclaves the ones surrounding most marines. Why do I make this assumption? Because Farsight had to request air transport to get to the main battle, and it was far away enough he could recieve the distress call. Also, artillery didn't know about his position - his last known position was the holograms, and artillery wouldn't friendly fire on marines. A) He was on Dal'yth, he spend lots of time with both Aun'Va and Puretide, both of them important in the history of Damocles, and he always guessed how the others were thinking since his youth days against his teachers. Not only that, he had decades to meditate on those matters, ie. a regular Tau lifetime. He spent like a century thinking Aun'Va was merely a bureaucratic dick until he came to understand he was an intelligent, kinda-mind-controlling dick (am I the only one noticing he also lives like 200+ years? Did he got himself in stasis?). B) He always guesses, the issue here is the fact he always ends up guessing correctly. Guessing without finding out the reason of it working was with the Chaos Ex-Machina medallions and the Ravens infiltrating - "it's just how it happens", he (presumably) thought. Regarding the info he couldn't know, what was it? C) She's not as good as him on that matter simply because she hasn't lived long enough. Farsight parrying the Eversor strikes was an exaggeration, no doubt, but the mere act of Shadowsun blocking even a few attacks from the assassin and getting out alive is comparable to when Farsight was around her age and got an arm torn off and sparta-kicked away by a Bloodthirsther (the thing with the whip, I don't play chaos). He only survived because the daemon thought his suit was his actual body and, dumbly, it kicked him away towards the safe zone. Against the Warboss, it can be kinda progapanda - remember he didn't have the blade yet (he Fusion blasted him to death), and he's not the only Tau good at melee: younger Brightsword defeats orks and a Chaplain in melee, even before Farsight invented Battlesuit-fu out of Aun'Shi's Neo-vs-Smiths footage (and presumably using his S5 instead of his guns, if the Chaplain's corpse description is to be believed). The battle against the assassins truly puts too much Mary on him. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 18:24, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
"Who says Farsight's forces have nowhere to run? They're not being surrounded by IG, it was the Enclaves the ones surrounding most marines. Why do I make this assumption? Because Farsight had to request air transport to get to the main battle" Now that's a fair point, but wouldn't he have failed in his main objective if he ran away? I'm certain the marines wouldn't follow him and would go help the Imperial Guard (especially since Shrike's not stupid and Khan wants to kill Shadowsun). The problem with his guesses, are as you say here, he always guesses correctly. Farsight's longetivity was explained away in Farsight Enclaves, every time he kills something with his sword, it adds that persons lifespan on top of his own, and it also says that if he ever learned this he'd commit suicide on the spot, though of course he guesses that's what's happening, but doesn't do it. An example of info of things he couldn't know is stuff that happens in the Tau Empire after he's gone. He doesn't have spies, so how does he know what's happening? Actually Chaos Daemons don't see the physical world as people do, they see the souls of people as well as a distorted image of the environment. You can't fool them with a larger body make them think that's you because they can see you inside of it. You also can't fool them with any holographic trick or stealth field (which is why those don't work on Daemons if you try them in the Horus Heresy rules where the Imperium has things like those) since they can still see you and/or they'll know the holograms are fake by virtue of not having souls. I must have missed the bit where Brightsword did that before (I see it now) and yeah, that's complete bullshit, apparently he stomped the chaplain to death SOMEHOW. -- Triacom (talk) 21:13, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
If he had run away, and then only if the imperials don't follow. He left the ambush because he saw his cadres mopping up the survivors and though "they've got this, surerly I can go to the main battle". Either that or he knows an ambush only lasts so long, afterwards the survivors would dig in like we know it happened on Istvaan, so he leaves and the marines do whatever they need to do so that he can deepstrike on them another day, instead of cityfighting Shadowsun's way. We got this knowledge from a novel, wouldn't he have it from years of officer training and several generations of tactics? And I think he really knows it's the blade, but I don't think he'd commit suicide. After all, he developed crisiswings because it pained him to see the war effort relied mainly on squishy firewarriors. If he ever considered it seriously it was when he became a hermit, but the arrival of the Tyranids made him realize his enclaves still needed him. And who says he doesn't have spies? Torchstar defects to her sempai and gives him news, tech and the like, and it's stated Viorlans idolize him. And I don't think Aun'Va is the only one with spy drones. I should have remembered how daemons percieve the world, but if that was the case the Tau would be nigh invisible to them - maybe it thought he was dead after a single hit and lost interest when it saw he didn't shed blood? Anyway, Farsight would have died if he hadn't been encased in armor and thrown near a null statue that time. And yeah, Brightsword. It's very hard, but he could kill a wounded Chaplain if he dared to charge one (he dares, 5 attacks), and the Chaplain wouldn't be able to kill him because they only have 3 attacks, not to mention Brightsword's FnP. I guess they didn't bothered to write those times a Brightsword tries to melee stuff and dies, tho. This isn't the same Brightsword murdered by the last-chancers. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 23:32, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
I don't think coming in from the sides where they aren't expected to be is really Cityfighting Shadowsun's way, especially when the majority of them can go over the city. I guess we should really both write off the Marine approach as bad writing since we both seem to agree that there should have been more impact than what they had. We also first learned about the Dawn Blade in the Farsight Enclaves book (not a novel), which is also where we learned that he was a prodigy of everything. If he showed aptitude for many things, and was singled out for special training first and THEN was an expert, that would be understandable, but not the other way around. I also don't think he'd commit suicide, that's just what Farsight Enclaves says he'd do for some reason, I have no idea why. Torchstar didn't work for him when she was still in the Empire, she just defected because she wanted to, and there's no mentions of Enclave spies in the Empire at all (even the people who like him don't have a way of communicating besides defecting). The only ones that are effectively invisible to Daemons are the Exorcists, Blanks and Pariah's, the Tau don't have much of a warp presence, but it's still a decent warp presence, unlike the Exorcists/Blanks which have almost no warp presence and Pariah's who have no warp presence. The reason Exorcists have next to no Warp Presence is because Daemons take a part of your soul with them when they're exorcised from you, and blanks/pariahs were just born like that. As for the Chaplain, that depends on how they're set up for close combat, though I guess we should assume he has only base gear because in every terrible Tau book that seems to be the case. -- Triacom (talk) 00:25, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
I meant "Shadowsun's way" as "using buildings as LOS blockers and luring the enemy into more traps". Farsight is more about hitting the place where he'll cause the most damage, like killing Nobs or blowing up armoured support. I used the HH example to highlight how difficult to erradicate a small force of well-placed marines can be even when they're outnumbered by elite forces. Like you I expected more of the marines, but I accept the "decided to regroup and rearm instead of braving the trap" as a good enough excuse to keep them busy. About Farsight's developement, to me he started as a Shas'La with a very insightful mind, who was very impatient and asked uncomfortable things, as well as having an unhealthy interest for close range combat. Which is why, recognizing the need for it after several years of combat against orks he decides to adapt Aun'Shi's style for battlesuits two years before actually finding the sword, using captured orks as sparring. As for his "political prowess", he got his teachers so mad they sent him to the front lines to be killed, got a promotion by getting himself killed in a simulation, no one ever gave him reinforcements, Puretide asked to tutor him (and not the other way around), Shadowsun wouldn't even talk to him and snatched half of his command council away, he got made the Empire's poster boy, got his Ethereals killed, got PTSD (hello Kais) and decided to become a hermit rather than to lead the Enclaves at first. But he got to know what was the deal with Ethereals, tells Aun'Va to shut his trap and makes Mrs. Tsundere blush. Yuuup, space politician. TBH, the part where he could use a rail rifle better than Ob'Lotai, now that was utter bullshit. Then again, Ob'Lotai used missiles, not a rail rifle. And I never meant he had masterminded a spy network on Viorla - Torchstar was the one who contacted sympathizers on her own accord (Word of Farsight still alive slipping and her arranging a ship-sized care package under the Big Brother's eye, that'd be a rather interesting not-war novel) as you correctly say it - what I'm saying is that she briefed Farsight of what had been going on. About the warp presence, yeah, I ended exaggerating: I reasoned that, if a regular human's soul is a "tiny spark" then a Tau soul was even fainter - I thought it to be kinda like the Exorcist's. And as you point out, it's hillarious how almost every human has standard issue equipment. Have you ever seen a Raven captain without a Jump pack? Meet Solaq. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 02:58, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
And like I said, I don't think that way works when a large portion of Marines can just fly over the buildings you're trying to use as a blockade, but I think any "should haves" we can come up would be better than the nothing that happened and can probably leave it at that. See an insightful mind in a character isn't a bad thing, starting out by being able to figure out every single scenario and trap effortlessly though? That's too much of a stretch. Being able to figure these things out through experience and by being a quick study would have been far better. Did I miss something in the Farsight Enclaves book though? I searched through it and couldn't find any mention of him using captured Orks as sparring partners (or was that in a novel I haven't read?) though that would at least make some modicum of sense. I also never said that he asked for Puretide to tutor him, and according to the Farsight Enclaves his hermit phase was just a meditation to get in tune with the elements so he could figure out how to kill the Orks, not PTSD (though that also would have made more sense). I see what you mean about Torchstar then, but I still think he knows way more than he should about what's going on in the Tau Empire (especially the events that happened before she was even born). As for the people with only "standard" equipment, that's kind of why I think it was written by somebody who only played the game, not somebody who knows much about the lore, otherwise you would have Raven Guard scanning the area (the Tau aren't the only ones with scanners), realizing the holograms were fake, then doing a counter-ambush on the Tau, but then we wouldn't see the beloved blueberries win. -- Triacom (talk) 05:04, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
WIth the author's hard on for "off screen"s it'd be hard to work out anything there. And yes, you have indeed missed several things in the supplement. He does figure out things by using time and information, and it's mentioned he has photographic memory. Battle reports, recon drones, his own memories after Dal'yth, half his career killing orks. Add that information to an obsessive mind that is quick enough to figure out his teacher's codes and see what you get - it'd be akin to a guy figuring out most of the Legion's codex by lurking around in forums or understanding suicide meltas after seeing it once. About his scolarship with Puretide, I was emphasizing the fact he was chosen for many things, rather than using political skills and contacts with Ethereals to get them. And when he left for meditation it happened in the year 815 and it lasted some months. His real hermit phase began in 832, after the battle against Daemons seven years earlier, and he returns in 997 (p. 90-92, Ork sparring in "The Way of the Short Blade" excerpt). About Torchstar knowing stuff from before she was born, that's called "history", especially about her idol. She does seem to know more than what she should, but to me that's what makes her something more than just a fangirl character. And to be written by someone who only plays the game, the book lacked the trademark grav gun spam (not even a mention!), so the author also fails at gaming xD. I wouldn't be too confident about imperial scanners: Terminators using the best equipment and dedicated ship mounted sensor arrays can only see hidden genestealers as bleeps, try finding high tech ambushers - say they were using stealth-ex-machina tech - in the middle of a jamming field. About the perfect holograms, I don't know if these "new Tau barracks" were inside the shield or not (Aun'Shi's hideout is also "amidst old imperial ruins", but it wasn't inside the fortress), but you know it's not that hard to shield stuff against scanners.
Oh, I see where it is now, silly me, I was looking for it under the an entry, not the way of the short blade summary, how ridiculous of me to think a really important piece of information and the development of a style the character is most famous for would have been in the main book. As far as his plasma spam against marines go, I don't really buy it since he was supposedly told through scanners that they were wearing heavy armour... and then we get into what should be considered heavy armour, or how the scanners know it was heavy armour, or why the Tau have Star-trek level scanners when everyone else, including the Necrons, do not (or why such scanners only appear in the worst of Tau stories). I also didn't say his scholarship was political, and normally I can say "You misconstrued X as Y" but in this case I'm not sure where you got that from. I also can't find where I'm complaining about him figuring out things after the fact, I can see where I said that I thought it was fine. As far as Farsight activating sage mode goes though (where I said he was in tune with the elements), I was referring to what happens in 815, I wasn't referring to him becoming a recluse. For Torchstar, how does she (and Farisight) know things that should only be privy to Aun'va? This is easily fixable to, for example, don't have the "The Huntress Awakens" entry, or change it to just mentioning that Shadowsun's awake, and for the "Censure" entry just mention what Aun'va does, not how he feels (those are two examples). I don't think it's that much of a surprise that the authors aren't that great, have you seen some of the battle reports? I remember one where an Author decided to go with all gets hot weapons on a unit of 20, and caused 8 Wounds in the shooting phase, all of which were on their own unit (if you're curious, the weapons were firearms, which are AP6 Bolters with the gets hot rule, they aren't even good to begin with, but they chose them for some reason). Now for Imperial scanners, I think you're not giving them nearly enough credit, it actually is kind of hard to shield stuff against scanners because, while they don't tell you much about living creatures (aside from warning you that something is waiting in ambush or is moving towards you) they do give you fantastic analysis about the environment, up to and including that there are creatures waiting in ambush, and exactly where these creatures are (back when 40k still had ambush rules they could spot anything, no matter how good it was camouflaged and even now they can still spot Infiltrators, regardless of how well they're hidden). If anybody had a scanner, even if they still thought the holograms were real, they'd also be well aware as to where the Tau were laying in ambush, and I'm always going to claim that not having the Raven Guard approach from above with their Jump Packs or sneak in to scan the area and plan ahead was really stupid. As for jamming fields, that always bugged me, how exactly do the Tau know the perfect way to shut down machine spirits? And no I don't mean Imperial Machines (when they actually do something then that's obvious) I do mean machine spirits, since the Tau armoury claims to know how to make them temporarily rebel, even though they're not supposed to know what they are. I'm honestly not too sure if the dome encompasses it either, normally I'd say it does, but this book is terrible enough that it doesn't really make a difference, it's not like the author was going to remember that Space Marines have long-ranged weapons anyway. -- Triacom (talk) 06:50, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
No one ever elaborates on Tau melee. Who taught Brightsword to fight that way? What's the deal with Aun'Shi? None of this and more in Behind The Scenes™. If anything, I wanted more Farsight melee excerpts and explanations. About marine armour, he wasn't told by scanners but through "targeting data acquired on the far side of the Damocles Gulf", aka battle reports. And present day humanity can determine the density and other characteristics of materials through the use of non-destructive tests like X-rays, ultrasound and the like, albeit at extremely close range. Why wouldn't an advanced race like Tau have those scanners? Or they could just look at them and see they're huge and covered in ceramite. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 10:47, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
Aun'shi at least has a slight explanation, when Ethereals disagree with one another they solve the dispute with a bloodless duel using their honour blades, Aun'shi just took it a step further and used them for more than ceremonial reasons (which is why Farsight adapting Aun'shi's fighting style is hilarious since they're two completely different styles with nothing in common). As for Brightsword... I have no clue. That's a good point about their armour though, I was wrong about that. -- Triacom (talk) 18:23, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
It explains why Ethereals know a capoeira-equivalent, not why he's so good at it or how he can use a ceremonial style to kill hundreds of orks in an actual war. It would actually be an interesting story on its own, tho. And you're right, Farsight watching him would only explain how he realizes melee is useful, not how he transformed bo-jutsu into battlesuit krav maga and then into broadsword fencing. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 21:41, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
I didn't address this earlier since I genuinely do want to defend it and had to think about it since it was in the books that I think are genuinely good, however I can only defend it as it appears in those books, so let's get to it. When the first Tau codex came out they actually were fairly short lived (even the Ethereals didn't have their ridiculous lifespans) and 40 was considered old, though it's best not to pay attention to that since it was one of the first things about them to get retconned away. Anyway, they explained that he's so good at fighting because he was born on Vior'la, and trained extensively with an honour blade against Shas'vre, as well as took part in training exercises and rituals with the regular Tau, however training against people who barely train at all in close combat shouldn't give you all that much skill in combat, and honestly it kind of didn't. While he's extremely skilled as a Tau warrior it's still not anything too impressive when compared to other races. The Ork he kills that makes him famous was the Ork Nob in a group of Feral Orks, who he cuts in half right after the Ork kills the Shas'vre of the Fire Warriors Aun'shi was with and honestly Aun'shi jumped in front of the Ork while he was distracted and killed him without any sort of duel. When the fighting continued elsewhere, he only fought against unskilled Feral Orks, who even the Fire Warriors could throw back and spent almost all of his time holding the line and inspiring the Tau like any good Ethereal should, rather than kill Orks in droves, and though he fought more than Ethereals normally do he didn't have that impressive a kill count, if we're including the kills for Fire Caste with guns he wouldn't even have the highest, and it certainly wasn't anywhere close to the hundreds by the way he was described. Eventually he's finally rescued when Tau reinforcements came in to save him and the fifty Fire Warriors that were left since they were facing a group of Orks and the Tau's numbers were small enough that they wouldn't be able to survive another brawl (because this was before Aun'shi was just invincible).
That was it, he trained against Shas'vre, practiced forms, fought against unskilled mobs while inspiring Fire Warriors and killed a Nob when the Nob was distracted, and some people wonder why I like 3rd-4th edition so much, it's because not everyone had to be the best thing EVAR. The story also has a sad ending, Aun'shi was on the way to his retirement, having served his people well and he was looking forward to it (referring to it as a "peaceful retirement" since he was presumably sick of war) however after word of his inspiring stand got out the other Ethereals forced him to consider serving, leading new expeditions until he died. Of course in the new fluff we can't have a sad ending, so let's make him content with his forced servitude even when he's supposed to be unhappy with it. It was a good story in the 3rd book (which again, I highly recommend reading).
Now we get to how he currently is, somehow "Ork Nob" got turned into "Ork Warboss" and he single-handedly held the Orks back from the compound he was defending the entire time, tirelessly and effortlessly, because fuck the underdog, everything needs to be BIGGAR AND BETTAR because we can't have a likable character who just does above-average things, they all have to be larger than life heroes who all have ridiculous backstories, see Helbrecht for the biggest example, where he went from a really smart commander whose claim to fame was defeating Ghazghkull's fleets above Armageddon during the Third War for Armageddon (if I remember right he doesn't even fight on the planet in the old fluff) to a guy who killed a Daemon Prince with a combat knife when he was an initiate. -- Triacom (talk) 10:43, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
Uuuuugh, today's books are such blatant propaganda, dammit! It makes much more sense now that I know he held a rather small mob until reinforcements arrived, instead of the other version. It seems like those books have the right amount of grimdark (I didn't know Aun'Shi was sick of war), now I have to read them all. You've doomed me to spend many hours reading them...thank you xD. Well then, I shall question the veracity of rulebooks akin to BL's "everything is both cannon and a lie" (thus I question Tau lifespans too). I would have liked more fluff about Farsight developing battlesuit fu, but maybe a headcannon would be more satisfying - it is about my dudes, after all. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 15:42, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
Well it wasn't a small mob, it was several thousand Orks that several hundred Fire Warriors fought off, the only difference is that Aun'shi wasn't alone and he didn't hide, he fought beside them when the Orks got too close and inspired them to achieve great things, like throwing Feral Ork Boys back when they got into melee range (they also only had one Nob and no leaders or specialists of any kind, because they were a very young group). I really don't know how Farsight developed his fightan magic, since we've already established that watching Aun'shi's fights against the Orks would be effectively useless for giant broadsword form, even ignoring the fact that the weapons are different and used completely differently, he also has a completely different way of fighting (Aun'shi's style is all about defensive fighting with very little offence which is why he had a surprisingly low kill count). -- Triacom (talk) 20:45, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
I thought "Mob" was anything smaller than a million-sized waagh, but it seems it's the equivalent for "squad" to them. And he could have seen the footage to get inspiration on some moves from the Ethereal style, mix them with Fire caste's (he had Brightsword on hand) and a study of Battlesuit dynamics, and there's Battlesuit fu. About his swordplay, the Fire caste does seem to have ceremonial swords and the like - maybe they're trained in their use, even if it isn't meant for war? -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 22:43, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
Oh that's what you meant, I thought you were thinking that it was a small squad of Orks, but in this case you're right, in comparison, they're a relatively very small mob (especially since the Tau reinforcements killed almost all of them as soon as they arrived). Also the Tau do train with ceremonial blades, but that's all they are, ceremonial because they're used in bonding rituals. I can also guarantee from a family member who has studied, practiced and participated with both staff and broadsword (they're in Wushu) that there's no benefit you can gain if you study one style, then use an entirely different weapon. I think the most realistic way that Farsight could learn his battlesuit fu would be to spar using suitably sized and weighted stun batons against other Tau while they were all in battlesuits (in addition to practicing on random Feral Orks he could hunt down). -- Triacom (talk) 08:36, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, the footage wouldn't be of much help, although, since the suits don't tire or need to develop muscle, learning the forms would be the only thing that matters, no need for weighted stun battons. It only helps that the suit is equipped with nice incidental melee tools like a small shield, club arms (the barrel of the guns) and jetpack kicks. If anything, their techniques would focus on flinging the foe away or keeping him from grabbing the suit. About the sword, I thought the Fire caste, being the most violent caste, would be trained in the use of swords the same way soldiers are trained in the use of bayonets. It's more of a symbolic gesture and almost nobody uses it, but the manual is there and some thought was poured into it because there was a time when it was actually used. And then there's the excuse of Farsight's style being heavily reliant in the fact that his sword cuts through anything, making crowd control easier. In time (a lot of it) he'd have developed a style suited for duels too, on his own this time. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 20:13, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
The reason you want the stun batons weighted isn't to develop muscle, it's so that when you switch from the baton to the sword you won't be thrown off balance by expecting a lighter weapon and needing to use a heavier one. The Fire Caste are trained in forms with the swords, I did mention that before, however the only purpose is bonding rituals. The blades are still ceremonial and as such are useless in an actual fight, as shown by the Fire Warriors choosing to club opponents with their guns before they use their blades. -- Triacom (talk) 21:21, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
It's sound reasoning, but why would they want to train with stun battons when the battlesuits fight unarmed? I also question the need for live orks, given they could build test dummies. It's not like the martial prowess of an ork is difficult to imitate. And if they are trained in forms with the swords, then it's good news for Farsight's specific case, right? -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 01:12, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
That's a very good point and I didn't even think of that, battlesuits do fight unarmed and he developed the fighting style before he got the sword, and I can say from experience that using a weapon is so different from your hands and your fists that his new style wouldn't help him use that weapon very much, as well as it being even more hilarious that he looked at Aun'shi's footage to develop it. I can also state from experience that he should train against Orks because a training dummy, regardless of how well you train with it, will not prepare you to deal with a rushing opponent(s). Also due to the body differences, Farsight would have to re-learn all of his forms after he got the sword to be able to use it properly, and I think Phil either just forgot to write in that he made another new style, or the entry about his new style should be after Arthas Moloch. -- Triacom (talk) 04:39, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
I think Phil just isn't aware that a martial art style doesn't always translate into another. The dummy would have the advantage of surviving lethal damage and would be equipped with pressure detectors to determine if a hit would wound, not to mention it was supposed to imitate the ork by being loud, going always forward and trying to insert the weapon's pointy end into the tau - I mean, how would this thing be called, a practice automata? Not like there is a short supply of orks, tho. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 23:46, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
I don't think you'd be able to program in everything that the Orks would do in a fight since they fight dirty, and I doubt the dummy would, I also don't think it's a good idea to practice on a dummy, then take on real Orks, such as Nobs, since the intelligence in their fighting is different. I still say to practice on Feral Orks since at least then you'll get a general idea of how to defend yourself from what they'd do, and work your way up from there. -- Triacom (talk) 06:31, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
About his hermit phase being about PTSD, you mentioned the one at 815 (which barely qualifies as hermit) wasn't about PTSD and indeed, it wasn't. I argued the second hermit phase was about PTSD because "The visions he had seen in that crackling portal stayed with him night and day, infecting his thoughts with ever more dangerous conclusions...Heresies reeled through Farsight's mind, taking him to the edge of panic...Yet the secrets were of such magnitude that putting them to the back of his mind and continuing to lead his people was impossible". I ran short, because the main reason for his self-imposed exile was actually his subversive ideas of Ethereals being outright enslavers, as well as the concept of the warp. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 10:47, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
I don't really think it can be called a hermit phase, which is why I was trying to refer to it as a "sage" phase since he left to get in tune with the natural elements. As far as the second phase goes, I can see that, though it wasn't what I was arguing for. I think we both misunderstood what the other was saying. -- Triacom (talk) 18:23, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
You said "according to the Farsight Enclaves his hermit phase was just a meditation to get in tune with the elements", I think that's what confused me xD. But at least we agree on that one. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 21:41, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
And why wouldn't Torchstar know of Shadowsun being awakened? One of the figures of her history books, trained by Sun Tzu, had been thawed off and placed as Supreme Commander of her caste, as Aun'Va liked to bragg, and Torchstar enlisted to be on her crusade, and she saw how Shadowsun called her sempai a scum and obliterated his monument. Hell, maybe that's what drives her to defect to the Enclaves - the real question is how she knows about the Enclaves, and that's what I'd like BL to ellaborate upon. About how this is known to the reader, well, even though the book is mainly seen through an Enclaves-faction point of view, I feel like the inclusion of some "omniscient narrator" info was healthy for us readers, otherwise we'd be in the dark too. Farsight is the one meant to be uninformed of this, but his faction knows probes have been trying to find out about him, and it doesn't take a genious to figure out that he'd be labeled a traitor if word of his pocket empire got out and that he'd be replaced specifically by Shadowsun, his closest equivalent. "A collision path" is an understatement regarding an angry ex-classmate that didn't like him and has now been told he betrayed them all - he'd think she'd kill him on sight. How does he know she needed help? Because Agrellant sent a distress call and the Enclaves are closer than either Prefectia or the Empire's Sept worlds - that message wasn't meant for him? Like O'Vesa intercepting the comms gives a damn. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 10:47, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
Oh I expect her to know Shadowsun is awake, but knowing that she was woken up, then told about Farsight immediately and specifically to set her on a collision course with him because Aun'Va hates Farsight? That's a bit of a stretch, which was why I said "change [the entry] to just mentioning that Shadowsun's awake". I never thought about how she knows of the Enclaves, and that's a very good question since Aun'Va is supposedly doing a wide suppression of everyone and everything that could tell anybody anything of the Enclaves. Maybe she guessed that they were still there? It seems in line with the rest of the book. As far as narration goes, I feel it's a bad idea, if they only left in things Farsight and his Enclave knew, then nothing would really be harmed since the book cannot be used without the regular Tau codex, which would be used to fill in the blanks, and I've always said it's better for books to have biased narrators because it presents more interesting story opportunities (not to mention before 6th, every book had a biased narrator). As for him arriving on the planet, Tau space travel is slow. Really slow, at best it would take at least a week for him to even reach the planet, and the war wasn't even going on that long. -- Triacom (talk) 18:23, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
Shadowsun making Farsight's monument explode kinda revealed her intentions and means more if the reader knows she's been told of Farsight, that's why I liked those unbiased moments. It is Torchstar's knowledge of top secret info what matters here, and she simply guessing stuff out of the blue would be like people thinking Amelia Earhearth still lives. Proposal: Torchstar got to know through the Earth caste monitoring the recon drones filtering info to her and then she witnessed orwellian supression of the info, which set her on that course. About the reinforcements, Mont'Ka lasts more than 2 local months (the distance to Prefectia) and Farsight arrives around the middle. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 21:41, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
I think you could do that better by having one of those first person asides to show what the character is really thinking, rather than declaring it to be so. That proposal would make sense, OR if she was one of the people brought in for "extensive questioning" and released that would also make sense. At least the distances vs time sound a lot more reasonable like that though. -- Triacom (talk) 21:55, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
It seems Torchstar does have a spy network. Or at least Arra'kon, since it was he the one who recieved the tyranid-anomaly reports from hidden allies in the main empire. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 01:12, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
I guess we'll just have to assume, though that's a common problem in all of Kelly's books, people just know things without explanations as to how. -- Triacom (talk) 04:39, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
About those battle reports, I haven't seen them, although I was the one who wrote the excerpt of Conscripts caught under the Neuroweb jammer doing more wounds to themselves in the Tau tactica, so I kinda get the idea, lol. And you're saying it's easy to spot infiltrators when you can set them behind a wall, but when has there been consistency between crunch and fluff? In several sci-fi settings scanning-blocking shields are common, and the Tau spent the whole book jamming imperial data. Hell, aren't Ghostkeels specifically designed with that purpose in mind? About the Ravens not coming from above, if the encampment looked like it had heavy AA coverage then they weren't going to be able to do so (they drop from Thunderhawks, right?). I don't know why didn't they just bombed the place tho (it was amidst unshielded imperial ruins). And I don't think Tau specifically target Machine Spirits - they do have an insight of how imperial tech works tho. The armoury says it unleashes holograms, disco lights and friendly fire signals (very specific signals, no doubt reverse engineered from Dal'yth's wreckage) because they know it confounds imperial tech, even if they don't know they're causing machine spirits to rebel. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 10:47, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
Imperial scanners actually are pretty consistent between the fluff and crunch before now, since they're meant to be used to spot hidden things or unforeseen threats, and they've done their job in codex stories and regular books very well. Considering too that 40k doesn't even seem to have teleport-proof shields barring the World Engine I don't think it's too much of a stretch to point out that scanners should work when there's no dues ex machina suit in the area (unless you count Farsight) since there weren't any Ghostkeel suits in the ambushes. Where in the book does it ever mention the Tau having heavy AA coverage? The most I can glean is they had guns meant to take down orbiting ships but that was it, and that's exactly why I say it's stupid, there isn't good air coverage and hell, Tau turrets can't even shoot up (though given how they're supposed to be used it makes sense). As for the armoury description, that's where not having an omniscient narrator would have come in handy. -- Triacom (talk) 18:23, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
I remember Shon'tu forcing teleport mishaps too, and Void shields are examples of transmission blocking equipment. Not saying Tau have actual void shields, but their stealth tech is so advanced even sound is muffled - concievably it would be undetectable by long range scans the same way those orbital guns were hidden. I highlighted Ghostkeels as examples of Tau stealth tech (in this case working more like a stratagem), not like they actually had Ghostkeels there (albeit a Hunter Cadre formation can field them). Still, most of the teleport-blocking stuff I remember is pre-heresy, so that's a fair point - especially considering that time when teleporting Terminators caused Tau to retreat. I said "IF they had aparented AA coverage", not that they actually had any, although the shielded fortress does have lots of AA (Mont'Ka p.89 - which wouldn't prevent drop pods, considering that's how the Eversor got in). So, the most sensible strategy would have been bombing the trap (spaceships don't care about AA) and deloying massed drop pods into the actual fortress - the fluffyness of the Skyhammer formation was hideously squandered. About the armoury entry, considering it also jams iron sights and the ork's not-aiming, it kinda falls upon your shoulders to imagine how it achieves that.
It's a bit different when you have that much knowledge of the warp, think of it as a car forcing another car off a road, then when you don't (which would be an open road) however they're not always able to succeed in causing teleport mishaps, not to mention some teleporters can succeed in getting through void shields (if I remember right the Orks used this to great effect during the Third War for Armageddon). The orbital guns were hidden by stealth fields, and I'm just going to say that there's a difference between ship scanners and ground scanners, since the scanners on ships don't really tell you much about the environment besides "We believe X is in the area." I do agree about your strategy though, since artillery would be better than Space Marines and orbital bombings would be better than artillery, if only the Imperium didn't mysteriously forget that they had spaceships for almost the entire book. -- Triacom (talk) 21:55, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
I mentioned Void shields blocking transmissions, not teleports. Those are blocked by other warp-related techniques and as such are unaffected by Tau tech. Transmissions nevertheless obey to radiation signals through realspace and the Tau are adepts at masking them. As it seems, the imperials don't make use of several already-tested resources in the last battle like massed drop pods, orbital bombardments, teleportation, psykers and the like. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 00:49, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
Reading the marines codex has reminded me about the Land Speeder Storm's Jamming Beacon, which "sends out pulses of vox-scramblin static to foul the enemy’s communications" and even scrambles teleports, all of that without using warp tech. Given it would screw with deepstriking Crisis suits, I'd say that if machine spirits can interact with AI then the opposite can also happen. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 09:40, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
Whoops, I fucked up, I meant to say "even in getting through void shields" since I wanted to use them as a widespread example of how teleports could get through shields. Also the reason it messes with deep-strikes is more because they can't lock onto the destination than anything else, they could still teleport, but as far as the fluff's concerned they'd end up far apart from one another (though within 100 feet of each other and where they're supposed to be usually). I also find that to be a reasonable assessment. -- Triacom (talk) 10:43, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
Well, I never mentioned void shields blocking teleportation. About transmissions and other forms of energy emission, Void shields displace them into the warp, although I think we should leave this train of though given the Tau lack warp tech. And yes, that's how teleportation is usually thwarted (maybe should have said "Jammed" like a radar, rather than "Scramble"), by forcing erroneous coordinates, which may then become a huge scatter or a mishap into a solid wall or something like that. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 15:42, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
And I never said you did, I just wanted to use them as an example, but I think we've covered as much as we could there, I also think that we could both agree that Teleporting Terminators would make the final battle completely unnecessary since they could just teleport somewhere near the shield generator, destroy it, then the Tau are fucked. -- Triacom (talk) 20:45, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
To put it another (and much shorter) way, there's a big difference between being far-sighted and having telepathy and precognition. Using Ender's game as an example, he was able to predict pretty well how battles were going to go, both in space and when he was at the academy, however he still took a lot of losses and sometimes things didn't play out the way he wanted. When he won it was usually by out-thinking the enemy, not being given a massive handicap. -- Triacom (talk) 10:26, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
When you're the best at it it does end up looking like precognition. Example (I couldn't find the video, they were measuring reaction time in karate I think): Masters of any martial art look like they know how a regular dude is going to attack (they kinda do), and even when they don't know, their reflexes are so much quicker than yours that it still looks like it was planned...and then there's Bruce Lee. And Farsight has incurred in lots of losses too; luckily he's not only willing to disengage when he knows he lost momentum, but is also able to thanks to his forces basically being Blitzkrieg on Jetpacks. The Warboss pretty much ambushed him and this exact thing happened. On Dal'yth both Shadowsun and him out-think the imperials, yet it wasn't enough (saved by the bell tho). Against Tyranids he was at a loss and heeded his advisor instead. All those times millions of Tau died, and they lack mankind's numbers. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 18:24, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
You don't need to explain it to me, I've actually been in Martial Arts for over 6 years, enough to become a black belt in Taekwon-Do, I know the feeling and I've done it before (reacting before they've attacked), because after fighting for a while you do know how somebody is going to act based on extremely small body reactions, to the point that training white and green belts is boring because their punches and kicks are so slow and obvious by comparison. Now that certainly has done nothing to help me figure out what somebody is thinking, only in how their body is going to move. As for Farsight's losses, yes he's taken losses sometimes, however we never really see them (as in they're given the most bare bones description they could possible get), and they never carry any weight since there's always more Tau to go around since they completely forget that the Tau aren't supposed to have the Imperium's numbers, how many conflicts have there been where "millions" of Tau died again? -- Triacom (talk) 21:13, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
Nice. Now instead of martial arts make it strategy and instead of 6 years make it more than a century. Dr. House and Holmes can know how people feel by looking at small details, you can fight better by looking at small details, now imagine their military equivalent in the everything-cranked-up-to-eleven 40k setting. And about those millions of dead Tau, I'm talking about civilians and thousands of military units. Remember the orks crashing asteroids on Atari Vo? That itself is a disaster, and the ork armada arrived there because of Farsight's mistake. What about the imperium's numbers? Yes indeed, where did they go? Their numbers weren't really felt. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 23:32, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
So how is he able to master everything and learn exactly what the enemy plans to do before he's fought them and before he's lived as long as he did? Everybody I've fought against I've needed to fight for at least a few punches/kicks before I get an idea of what they're going to do. Another thing to keep in mind with the Tau is their various physiology, losing a massive portion of their Fire Caste should be more devastating to them than it is to the Imperium because the Tau can't just conscript other people to fight as effectively, they've got a relatively small pool to draw new recruits from and I'd love to see even one book that addresses this. -- Triacom (talk) 00:25, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
The same way football coaches watch videos of rival teams and develop counter-strategies against them, that's where his intel comes from - remember the mirrorcodex wasn't written during the battle with the imperials but in the aftermath, after he saw the reports again and again, with help of O'Vesa and Brigthsword. About how he manages to come with those strategies, well, that's his original shtick - remember when he understood ork society and developed the book of the Beast, and that happened on the span of a few years. I mean, if you could watch videos of your opponents before facing them maybe you'd notice some traits like their usual reactions, dominant foot and the like. And the most I've seen books adress the conscription rate basically boils down to "Aun'Va wanted more soldiers, and it was so", countered by "Farsight wanted reinforcements, but they said no".
And if he actually got information on the Space Marines before they landed then I could buy him creating a few counter-strategies, but he knows how to counter them before he fought them just like he knows how the Orks reproduce, because the author decided that would be the thing he would guess and that he would be correct. Also Farsight being refused reinforcements always seemed more of a political thing than anything else to me. -- Triacom (talk) 05:04, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
He doesn't know how to counter them before fighting them - the Mirror codex was written after Dal'yth, not before. If you're referring to his plasma spam, that was because he read the reports about the "human shock troops being extremely heavy armoured, remember Farsight got there as a reinforcement from Arkunasha. If you're talking about his fire protocol of "First marines, then the regular infantry", that was developed during the course of the war, not before it. And you're wrong: it was O'Vesa Einstein the one who theorized the Orks were asexual, not Farsight (p.23), and that was because he was monitoring them the whole time.
Well I addressed his plasma spam in the earlier comment, and as for him guessing the Orks way of reproducing, he did guess. O'vesa "had a theory" and Farsight accepted it as the truth, even though he had next to no evidence to back it up which is still a guess, even if he's just supporting somebody else's guess: "If his theories were to be believed, every morning, the rust dunes, dank with a film of dew, would shiver and collapse to reveal a clutch of immature Dune Orks, low in tech-level but spoiling for a fight.". -- Triacom (talk) 06:50, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
They got forced to consider the matter of Ork reproduction when they measured the ork number was increasing. O'Vesa could have simply said "Orks are asexual" and it'd have been enough - what Farsight cared about was that he wasn't killing orks fast enough. O'Vesa was extremely specific, how did he came up with this theory? Take a guess. Literally, because the book wont mention it either. Then again, we're talking about the scientist that invented immortality nanomachines and remote controlled a Riptide after devising a poison that killed a hive fleet. Regarding intelligence, if Farsight is Ender then O'Vesa is Bean - even smarter. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 10:47, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
I honestly don't see why they needed to say anything beyond "Ork numbers are increasing", especially when they use it to make O'vesa a student of the Mr.Fantastic school, where he's an expert biologist, a good marskman (seriously, why do the Earth Caste shoot as well as Fire Caste?), and knows how to use/develop any tech without any real issues of any kind. The things he can do and the theories he comes up with are just comic book logic (you'd figure somebody being able to remotely access the suits would also be kind of a security risk). -- Triacom (talk) 18:23, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
It is comic book logic because O'Vesa is an stereotypical genious. Then again, what isn't a stereotype in 40k? And I think Earth Caste Pilot Arrays use aimbots of some sort, which leaves you with the question of why aren't they normal issue (say they're hand crafted or something). I picture O'Vesa taking remote control of a Riptide in one of two ways: He's accessed using his ECPA account (Tau wouldn't consider anti-hack measures because their tech is too advanced for other races and they don't enact war against themselves), OR he's typing on a computer using black glasses and a trenchcoat while uttering "I'm in". -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 21:41, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
While funny, I think both of those would just make the Tau more than a little screwed against Necrons, especially if there's more like Anrakyr (and I'm sure there are) where they can put their minds into machines while saying "assuming direct control." To be fair to 40k though, at least the Mechanicus Magos aren't just masters of everything, they still have to specialize. -- Triacom (talk) 22:05, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
A Titan suddenly switching sides would be disastrous for anyone, not just Tau (except maybe orks). And yes, while I was writing the previous comment I was thinking about Magi having to pick a specialty and living many centuries. Meanwhile O'Vesa has lived less and already feels like some sort of Biologis-Enginseer. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 00:49, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
For the record too I don't want to dislike the Tau, I really don't. When they were first introduced to W40k I thought they were a really cool idea, mainly because I had the White Dwarfs that caught me onto the whole orwellian regime angle of the empire, but they've had so many shitty stories involving them, and I don't think you can find one story focusing on the Tau vs anybody else that doesn't talk about how awesome the Tau force is at everything aside from the 3rd and 4th edition Tau Codices. I think it's fine to see them doing well, but this is flat out cartoonish, its equivalent would be 100 marines holding out against a hive fleet or daemonic incursion until the hive fleet/daemonic incursion decides to go after weaker prey. -- Triacom (talk) 01:43, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
I just wanted the guardsmen to succeed at something by themselves, there has to be some stories (codexes rather than Cain novels) out there, right? Can anyone point me at them? Srsly, these Cadians get beaten more than Korpsmen and don't even make anything useful out of it. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 02:58, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
Well they're up against Tau, making other factions stupidly incompetent is just the Tau's superpower (it even happens in their regular novels). Using Cadians, the Guardsmen who are supposed to be among the most well trained humans in the galaxy (give them all implants and you could have a planet of Space Marines) as the "die in droves" army was just really fucking stupid, especially since they're supposed to be defending a far more important planet. As far as Guardsmen winning go, I've heard of at least three novels, Cadian Blood, which has Raven Guard but they serve more to be distraction for the enemy and the Cadians are the ones who leave to go save the day. There's Rebel Winter, which focuses on the Vostroyan Firstborn as they try to get a prisoner past Orks and into Imperial territory, and there's Death World, which focuses on the Catachans as they try to kill Orks on a Death World. -- Triacom (talk) 04:25, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
Will give them a read, thanks. I kinda wanted Kriegers vs Tau, or to make them push for melee like they did on Taros. The Cadian formations were barely mentioned and almost never elaborated upon. The Battle of Dal'yth felt so much better and had so much more Mont'Ka...and almost the same Mechanicum participation as this book had, lol. I guess we must wait until the next IA so that the Red Scorpions beat the Tau do something using their FW's pet powers (as if). -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 06:54, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
The Battle of Dal'yth wasn't as bad, just because the Tau took losses and at least had to think about things, even if the Space Marines and Imperial Guard were still really stupid. Also considering how Forgeworld usually does things (and how much they love the Tau), I'm guessing the Red Scorpions will have their apothecaries sniped immediately, and then charge into battle like the marines in this book, completely forgetting about their heavy weapons squads, and all of their artillery. -- Triacom (talk) 07:50, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
Is it a good tactic to try to out-dakka the Tau, tho? The rulebook says not even the best gun in the galaxy will be of much use when the enemy is bashing your head with a stick (unless you're Shadowsun, or Cypher, etc.). Earlier I was reading about the Arditi, WW1 shock troops armed with only daggers and grenades, tasked not to make way for further infantry, but to overrun enemy trenches. "These primitive tactics were surprisingly effective". They're not Kriegers merely because they were non-cloned italians. What they need is to expose those stealth suits with an EMP, flour or something, because you can't kick in the balls something you cannot see. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 08:55, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
Well... Yeah. When you've got more guns than they do and can take out their long-range firepower, pinning the infantry in place with artillery and sending Assault Squads to take out the ones who try to flank you then there's not really that much issue with trying to out-shoot them. I also just realized that Imperial Guard artillery get a mention on page 88, which means that since they actually had long-range artillery, there's no reason for the Tau to have won at all, even if we ignore the fact that the Tau shouldn't have enough bodies to take on the Knights, Guard, and Marines all at the same time. Now if the Tau had the amount of resources they normally do? Then it would be a bad idea, you'd be far better off trying to get in close. Also the Space Marines can see cloaked Stealth Suits, pretty much everyone can, it's just much trickier (it's also how Severax catches not-shadowsun) since the suits don't render you literally invisible, they work more like how the predator cloaks (which is fitting since they were made in the time when GW was ripping off several Arnold and Stallone movies). -- Triacom (talk) 10:22, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
A) I'm talking about the Red Scorpions. Marines outnumber no one, not even stranded Tau, and they don't make much use of artillery, what most marines tend to favour are close asaults. Even then, Farsight would drop with meltas, kill the artillery and jump away. Or counter Drop Marines with dual plasma. I thought Farsight would have problems with the very mobile Scars, since they operate as regular marines in the Supplement, but that'd simply lead to another of Shadowsun's Kauyons on Scars, like she does every 4th hour. About the IG, they even said they had enough to crush the Tau several times over on their own, that's why their defeat is nonsensical to me - Tau had barely enough dakka to fend off the Knights, and Enclave help meant they fend marines too. Still IG was more than enough, with the added benefit of Knights. On a sidenote, I thought the artillery was hitting the shielded fortress, and because of the communications jam no one could redirect them towards better targets so they kept on firing Barrage on a target not in LOS. B) I know marines can see predator cloak with their naked eyes, I'm talking about IG. Their only chance is to use sanctioned psykers, but they author would get them sniped anyway. C) The book's first part focused mainly on colonel Starkzahn's battlegroup Thunder, one of three, one who deliberately left his artillery behind in order to try the israelite "attack attack attack" doctrine (and that came to bite him in the ass). I wanted to read more about Drazda's veterans & Hellhound, or some of commissar Fremantle, other than him getting sniped. They even brought Attilan Rough Riders, but guess what. Off Screen. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 18:24, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
So let's go over this, the Tau have at least a thousand Tau to take on the Marines (so long as they're outnumbering them), and then would need tens of thousands of Tau to counter the millions of Guardsmen, how do they have these numbers? It would be one thing if they could bottleneck the Guardsmen, but they don't. I pointed this out a while ago, but there's supposed to be enough Guardsmen to take the planet five times over (that's what the book actually says) so you're right in their defeat making no sense whatsoever. As for the artillery, why would they fire at the shielded fortress? I guess that would explain why they didn't do anything but that course of action still makes no sense. Lastly though, you know what I just realized would completely fuck over pretty much all of these shitty Tau books? Teleporting Terminator Armour. They're fucked, only their heaviest guns have a chance to break through, and when terminators are teleported right next to their heaviest guns they really don't stand a chance, so I suppose it's only natural the author(s) completely forget about one of the Astartes most widely used (every chapter has Terminator Armour) and most effective tactics. -- Triacom (talk) 21:13, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
I'm never excusing the rout of the IG. Again, they should have won by themselves. Killing already battered marines? Difficult, but not impossible. As for the artillery, where should have they aimed at? At the stealth suits the guardsmen can't see? Would have been an intelligent move, considering marines could spot for them (had they been available) and exploding the general area is a nice way to kill what you can't see...but like we said about the Culexus, you'd need to know where they are, and all the artillery crews could hear was static - everyone had been informed of the plan because communication was expeted to be unavailable. Kinda short sighted knowing your artillery crews will be firing blind, if you ask me. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 23:32, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
How about they get inside the shield and aim at the Tau gunlines? I also remembered we've already established there isn't another shield over the fortress, it's over the entire city. The Imperium does have ships in orbit that should have given them Intelligence before launched the attack, and they also have their own scanners, they don't have to "eyeball" everything. -- Triacom (talk) 00:25, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
You mean having the artillery braving the storm and into the breach the infantry, aided by super-heavies, is bleeding to secure? Lol, this isn't Ordo Reductor. You hear me AdMech in orbit?! Also, there are Tau stealth teams hidden inside the storm, the fleet can't help them much. You know what, the Vindicare would have been much more useful by hunting these ambushers because of his spy mask. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 02:58, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
Breach? What breach? There's the city, and they're trying to get into the shield, to point out another reason why the Tau winning is bullshit, the Imperial Guard can (and from what I've read they did) fully surround the city with several million guardsmen and then just walk in, the Tau having the numbers to counter this BY ITSELF is bullshit. -- Triacom (talk) 05:04, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
Maybe you'd be more comfortable if I used the word "Breakthrough" instead of "Breach" (I thought them to be synonyms, although the latter does lend itself more for tearing down physical walls). As in, the imperials want to assault the shield generators, but Tau fire kills them and impedes their advance and the imperials cannot force an opening (which is bullshit), so I meant to say that forcing Basilisk through those openings wasn't a good move, Commissar Dan's style. Hell, I think Skitarii by themselves would have been able to break the siege, considering the descriptions of them braving tau fire from this book. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 03:38, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
So the Tau were able to secure the perimeter of the entire Hive City and lace the whole thing with traps then? There should still be plenty of streets for them to use, and for the Skitarii, the assault on the city would be perfect for them, especially since the Tau still have the Stormsurge suits and it's known that they can sneak in easily (not to mention the mobility and sensors most Skitarii have). Quite frankly I still have no idea why the Mechanicus gave up. -- Triacom (talk) 06:50, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
Yes, they should. Specifically, Sicarians infiltrators would be amazing against Tau with their own disruption tech and power swords. Maybe they did managed to capture that Stormsurge and said "Meh, I already have one". -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 10:47, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Here's another plan, send the Space Marines against the heavily fortified base, and use Imperial Guard artillery to wipe out the unshielded training grounds. Why exactly did Marines go after that spot when artillery would have done the job faster and better? I guess we'll never know what happened with the Mechanicus either since, as mentioned, that's all offscreen, though you'd think with how much they're supposed to hate Tau tech, to the point that a Genetor even asks for the Tau to be wiped out because they don't have machine spirits, that they would have contributed to the fight more to wipe out one of the alien races they're supposed to completely despise. -- Triacom (talk) 18:23, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

I propose a fluffy and crunchy battle plan in a comment up there, addressing precisely those points. And the last time I read, AdMech considered xeno tech as heresy so it'd make sense for them to fully support the crusade instead of merely Blood Raveing along, making Arcotholitis a truly one-dimensional character. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 21:41, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
  • So I might as well make a second point here to talk about a few things, first is the area the book takes place in. In Kauyon (which I also think was a bad book) the Tau took over Agrellan and then captured Prefectia, with most of the fighting taking place on Prefectia. In Mont'ka all of the fighting takes place inside the Damocles Gulf, on Agrellan as stated on page 9. -- Triacom (talk) 01:44, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Farsight's Kauyon is recognized as such and isn't mistaken for a Mont'Ka. On the other hand, Shadowsun's "Mont'Ka" is actually a Kauyon, since the used lots of stealth ambushes and never aimed at specific enemies. Or would the use of nukes, railguns and other massed heavy weaponry constitute a Killing Blow per se? (I'd say no). -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 06:49, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
My mistake on that, I just mixed those up. -- Triacom (talk) 07:14, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
  • They attacked the city from just one side? "they had the Tau surrounded and badly outnumbered" (p.92), and there are descriptions of the imperials fighting through the desert on the way to the fortress, as well as Stark placing his forward headquarters at the edge of a dissecated forest. I thought Hive cities were nothing but asphalt and buildings, so that'd mean the imperials aproached from several directions. Yes, the fact that the Tau are able to cover all fronts at the same time would indeed constitue BS. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 06:49, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
I said that to give the author the slightest benefit of the doubt, since, especially with the Knights, it really does read as if they only attacked one side of the city. -- Triacom (talk) 07:14, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
Now that I re-read, despite the three spearheads aiming to converge at the fortress, it seems they're indeed only attacking from one side: east to west through the desert. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 08:38, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
  • What Imperial Guard units would constitute an adequate force against the Tau? I'm asking because I want to see what they forgot to bring, besides psykers - they do bring the mandatory artillery, commissars and some ogryns. They even brought cavalry, but the book's IG sections focused almost entirely on Stark's spearhead. On a related note, how many companies fit in a regiment (p.20)? -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 06:49, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
A regiment (or at least the Cadian 8th regiment) consists of roughly 16 companies, which consist of 2 to 6 Infantry platoons each (which also vary in size), in total they're usually around 8000 Guardsmen. As for what they could have done, they could have brought Chimeras or Taurox. Those would have really fucked over the Tau's anti-infantry plan and Chimeras are supposed to be mandatory to at least one for each company, but in the book they're given only three mentions, one is the colonel addressing his men inside a Chimera (which is quickly forgotten), the next is in a flashback, and the third is when you see a destroyed Chimera, that's it. They could also have brought hydras, since they'd chew right through Fire Warrior armour like it was nothing, any version of Hellhounds, all of which would fuck over the Tau's plan of hiding behind cover, they could have used Sentinels to scout ahead and depending on how they're armed they could easily pin down or destroy defending Tau, or even just distract them while the rest of the Guard get into position, and all of their artillery could have easily been pushed inside the shield. -- Triacom (talk) 07:14, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
They did bring Sentinels, and the ones attached to the infantry companies were used as scouts (p.24), i.e.: Emperor's Shield and Talon's Sentinels. Footslogging infantry across an irradiated desert was dumb no doubt, although some elements like Drazda's guys (the flashback) were stated to be mechanized infantry - still, they should be the norm and not some particular case (I'm glad no one used Tauroxes, tho. Those are ugly af). Given how bad the Russes had it, I doubt Hellhounds would have mattered much, even with their Ignores cover. And Wyverns would have been a nice change of pace from the usual Basilisks, albeit the nature of the artillery they had is almost never mentioned. As for the regiment's size, I wanted to know how many abhumans they brought. I'm assuming most of them were Ogryns. An irradiated landscape filled with shooty enemies vulnerable to good honest bayonets and a siege at the end, it sounds like a job for Kriegers, their heavy guns and their Death Riders until you factor in Stealth and Crisis suits. Given how they managed to charge and defeat a Monolith I think they could have done the same to those Stormsurges. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 08:38, 21 January 2016 (UTC)]
Oh, I thought you were talking about the final battle, not just in general, because if we were doing an in general type of look at things, the Tau should not have stood a chance. Longstrike is shooting at Leman Russ's and somehow outranging them? Orbital strikes/Basilisks/Wyverns/Deathstrike missiles blow the hammerheads to pieces. Tau are defending behind a wall that pops up in the sand? Space Marine drop pods fall behind it, or Terminators teleport behind it, or deathstrike missiles are used against it. The Tau have a shielded fortress? Teleport Terminators inside to destroy the generator. Now as for those guard that I mentioned, a huge portion of the Russ's were taken out by the battlesuits getting close, which is right where the Hellhounds want them to be, and the Hellhounds would have been able to cover both themselves and the Russ's so that Farsight's tactic of dropping in wouldn't work, and/or Hydra's would have shot him out of the air before he got close enough to do it. Also I haven't seen anything to suggest that the Abhuman regiments are any smaller than regular regiments, so that means they brought along ~16,000 Abhumans on the western spearhead, and ~4,000 Abhumans on the Eastern spearhead. I think we can also assume all of them were Ogryns since I didn't see any mentions of non-Ogryn Abhumans, and they also did have Bullgryns who could/should have led the charge to soak up the fire from the Tau's defending force during the final battle (the last time we see them is before the final battle, as they're one of the many things the book forgets about).
They should have said they were outmaneuvered instead of outranged, being Skimmers vs Lumbering behemoths, or that they had more accuracy because Fire Team and Predictive Targeting, but nooo, he had to pick the one excuse that was wrong. And I mentioned the field being too dangerous for Hellhounds because there were so many Railguns in the field that even AV14 struggled to prevail, not to mention the billion seeker missiles the Tau had. And their ignores cover would be difficult to use because you need to know the invisible enemy is there, or they'd be used against entrenched troops, which helps ambushers to attack its rear with fusion guns. They'd do a great job covering the tanks from fusion guns, but they didn't have reasons to believe any Tau was going to use fusion blasters against them, given that their main antiarmour resources until that point were railguns and seeker misiles. Now, Hydras - that's another thing they forgot. And the existence of deepstrike and orbital bombardments renders walls useless, which they kinda do in the book. Too bad most of these things were forgotten at the final battle. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 10:31, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
Wouldn't the rail guns be either too focused on the Russ's or destroyed by the artillery to target the Hellhounds though? The Imperial Guard are supposed to support each other, not send in units one by one and hope they get out okay. Also the Tau have used both melee and Fusion Blasters on the tanks of the Imperium before, so they did have reason to believe they'd try to use those tactics again. Also the Imperial Guard do have scanners as well, while they wouldn't know what something was, they'd know where it is, allowing them to bombard it or allow the Hellhounds to destroy it. -- Triacom (talk) 20:59, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
Hellhound's AV12 enables Broadsides and Ion to hurt them, although armour saturation would be a sound strategy. And does the Imperium (IG branch) really learns from its mistakes or instead says "we failed because we weren't good enough, we will use the same strategy but better this time" like that Land Ironclad - Cowboys vs Tanks H. G. Wells story? Because I would have expected to see Commissars rally their men towards melee, but it didn't happen. And about Cadian doctrine, if Chimeras are mandatory what would make them different from the Steel Legion (besides better training)? Yes, they're pretty much the standard IG, but wouldn't standard IG do it like this (tanks as a spearhead, infantry following)? For armoured regiments vs Longstrike, it'd be like this instead. And doesn't Stealth means difficult to detect, even by scanners, more so while inside sand dunes? The counter against stealth tactics is indeed to blast their general area with artillery, but Stark had left his behind, and after they called for help the Tau blocked their comms. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 15:43, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
Well yeah it does enable those to hurt them, but there's far better things to shoot at when they're far away, as I mentioned. The Imperial Guard are supposed to learn from their mistakes because Imperial Guard commanders need to show some aptitude towards learning from their mistakes to be given any sort of command position, and if they show they aren't capable of learning they are either killed or put right back on the front lines. The only commanders who use the wasteful strategies, like Chenkov, are promoted because they're successful, and that's because they know when to use them, for example Chenkov sent in waves of Guardsmen to clear a minefield so that his artillery could have a good vantage point to siege a city, he didn't endlessly send waves of Guardsmen towards the city. So when I said Chimeras are mandatory for each company, that doesn't mean they have enough for all of their 2-6 Infantry Platoons (usually there's 1-4), and since there's not enough room in a Chimera to fit all of the men in there, they do advance like that, but only when they've deployed in ideal positions (they don't walk all the way from a part of a planet to another part for example). The Steel Legion on the other hand is entirely mechanized, you'd hardly find anybody who doesn't have a transport of some kind or a tank they should be inside. Now for that Longstrike battle, the big difference is first the amount of tanks, the terrain, the effective range, and the fact that there should be artillery for the Guard, and even if they left theirs behind there should be orbital strikes and heavy weapon teams. Another thing about that, despite how they're written here, all Leman Russ tanks do have targeting computers inside of them, whereas I can think of one time in the book it's mentioned and all of the tanks just seem to eyeball it rather than use them. Also the Tau's stealth suits aren't invisible against scanners, the regular suits mess with your eyes and the ghostkeel is meant to mess with your targeting equipment, whereas scanners don't try to target them, they just sweep the area. Because of this, in the older rules it was entirely possible for a group with scanners to spot a unit of stealth suits before a game started and allow you to shoot at them, and even in the current rules a unit of stealth suits cannot deploy anywhere near a unit with scanners, because they'd get spotted. -- Triacom (talk) 17:20, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
A) On the clash of armour Devil dogs would be too much short ranged to matter, and on the assault to the Tau lines I don't see why Broadsides wouldn't pick on the Hellhounds while the real Railguns take care of the Russes. And Stark never learned from his mistakes because he was undefeated. In fact, his first mistake got him stranded on a planet that got Exterminated - try learning from that. On the bridge no one asks for Stark's whereabouts, and Hawke "had been through such things so many times it was no longer awkward, but it was easier to work with those who understood the price of failure". But maybe this is also a deviation from previous editions that I haven't read, so I'll leave it at that. B) Ah, I thought you meant mandatory as if every squad was mounted, ok. C) Sentinels and Heavy weapon teams were pinned down or sniped (p.35), and if they solved everything with orbital bombardment then there'd be no book xD ,not to mention there was a storm over them, so maybe they didn't want to blow their own guys up, not without intel from a high ranking officer like when Stark did it (and these guys had their comms jammed). Without such info, High command decided to deploy the superheavies instead. D) Longstrike's example higlights some things: the Russes were on open terrain while the Hammerheads were in cover (either in ruins or just behind dunes), they had better accuracy (TL BS4 or better for Tau vs BS3 from Russes, and in the video those russians are returning fire, so effective range isn't a concern here (plz point me the times hammerheads outrange russes, thanks)). E) I see Stealth (or rather don't) as the muffling of emitted signals such as visible wavelengths, radiation and even sound. Maybe the Tau upgraded their stealth, but the thing is that rule isn't used anymore, so how could they represent it in the fluff of a rulebook (when was this rule dropped?)? Not to mention in the IG codex I couldn't find the word "scan" except for lascannons. And even if they had them, they're inside an irradiated dessert so they could have interference in their electronics (a magnocular is seen not working), and sand does interfere with wireless comms, and that's a real thing. As for Tau stealth, picture them like F-22 Raptor's stealth - both passive (Stealth drones) and active (Ghostkeel array). Then again, if the imperium used both scanners and orbital bombardments galore in the book then Warzone:Kauyon wouldn't exist. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 20:14, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
A) The Devil Dogs and Hellhounds wouldn't be too short ranged to matter on the clash of armour, you just pointed out the Strike Teams and Pathfinders that were holding up the IG companies and sentinels (somehow), so they could've easily destroyed them there. They also certainly wouldn't be useless on the assault on Tau lines, if you remember I said they'd be great for keeping suits off of the Russ's, which they'd certainly excel at, Farsight flies in to take out the Russ's, and a few Devil Dogs turn him into molten scrap. Stark's from Cadia, he'd need to have learned these various strategies just to not die. It's actually not a deviation from previous editions, for example he'd have been executed if the Tau won the main fight outside their fortress without Farsight, but nobody holds it against you if you're caught by surprise by reinforcements you had no idea existed, the people who get executed there are the ones in charge of intelligence and the ones who're supposed to be operating the scanners. C If only they had some sort of Chimeras or Hellhounds to destroy the pathfinders, or maybe artillery... Also most Imperial Guard have and Sentinels the Imperial ships are easily capable of tracking, they could definitely have just fired around them even if they cared about killing their own men. D I'm really not sure how Longstrike's vehicles hid: "The hovering Tau gunships took maximum advantage of such cover, lowering themselves so only their turrets could be seen." What does that even mean? Hiding behind a dune? Also I'd like to point out the Imperial Guard doesn't try the same strategy twice, if their tanks are getting blown up they don't send more tanks. "plz point me the times hammerheads outrange russes, thanks" Funny you should say this, as it also happens on P.35: "the Imperial tanks found themselves overmatched – they were outranged and trying to traverse open ground." In every encounter with the Russ's, the Hammerheads destroy them by firing outside of their range. E) "but the thing is that rule isn't used anymore" Yes it is, I did say: "and even in the current rules a unit of stealth suits cannot deploy anywhere near a unit with scanners, because they'd get spotted" because they simply changed the rule rather than keep it, much like Night-Fighting. "Then again, if the Imperium used both scanners and orbital bombardments galore in the book then Warzone:Kauyon wouldn't exist." Yeah and we might have gotten a story that doesn't suck in its place. Seriously, take a look at the Damocles Crusade in the 3rd edition book, it is done so much better in every way, with both sides using every single advantage they had to try and win. -- Triacom (talk) 22:42, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
A) I'm saying Devil dog vs Hammerheads. Against the ones who ambushed the Heavy weapon teams, Hellhounds would have been useful no doubt, but those guys have access to seeker missiles, and markerlights outrange Inferno cannons by 16", so watch out. Devil dogs attached to Russ companies for protection against battlesuit drops would need to be extremely careful given how close they get to the tanks (on the fluff they sometimes land on top of them) to avoid friendly fire - scatter dice and BS3 means those aren't the most accurate things (~4" mean scatter), the remedy could become worse than the disease. Not to mention crisis suits usually drop and bounce away to avoid prolonged retaliation. The real place for the Emperor's Blade hellhounds to shine was the attack on the Tau lines, because I wanted them to display that smexy OS the Cadian contingent blatantly lacks, without much reason (aren't they shock troops?).C) Come again?. D) Yes indeed, that's exactly what it means, it's a tactic also used IRL. They also used the few ruins scattered on their side (probably to conceal Skyrays). Thanks for pointing that out for me, I wanted to know all instances of hammerheads outranging russes (which is bollocks). So it seems that video example is a better representation of what actually happens, lol. E) I meant the scanning thingy. Too close and they'll be detected no doubt, either by marine super sight or IG scanners (I thought you were talking about actual equipment that costed points like the HH versions). I didn't mean they could play invisible "I'm not touching you" right on their faces (which I think happens once on the book but I'm not sure). And, in retrospective, anything that prevents Warzone:Kauyon from existing would be good, because that book sucked way more than this one IMO. But what I'm saying is that almost any land battle could be solved with orbital bombardment (the conflict itself reduced to a mop up operation), provided they are a worthy target and they don't have any tricks like shields or stealth. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 01:59, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
A) So am I, the Hammerheads could have been taken care of by Sentinels and Heavy Weapons teams, who were attacked by pathfinders and Strike Teams, who could've been destroyed by Hellhounds, freeing up the Heavy Weapons and Sentinels (though why the Sentinels are caught is still kind of bullshit, since they should've been able to outmaneuver the strike teams). I also don't get why the Russ's didn't use dunes or destroyed tanks as cover, oh right, they were somehow outranged. Considering too the last time the Tau fought the Guard, the Guard's response for getting battlesuits off of their tanks was to shoot both, I don't think they'd care too much, not to mention blast shots in lore work more like how they did in 3rd edition, where you roll to hit, and then only put down the blast if you get a successful hit (there's no scatter unless you're using a barrage weapon) and depending on how many Devil Dogs there are, there could be a lot of shots being fired at Farsight and his team (and considering he's a Commander I'm sure they'd consider killing him important enough to lose a few tanks over), and that's IF he somehow bullshits his way past the Hydras the Guard are supposed to have. C) Admittedly I fucked up my wording, because I started a thought, then changed it partway through, then forgot to go back and fix it, the gist of it is that if one strategy doesn't work, the Guard switch to another, for example the ships have scanners that can easily tell them where the IG Infantry platoons are, so they just simply shoot everywhere else, even if for some bullshit reason they can't see the Tau on their scanners. D) I really want to know why it was impossible for the Russ's to find any sort of cover, even destroyed tanks would provide the cover they needed. E) Funny you should mention that, because an Auspex is actually just another word for "Hand-held Scanner" and the versions the Guard normally use are called "Surveyors." There's also larger and more effective versions on vehicles and buildings (just called scanners) and their battleships have extremely long range and very effective versions called Augurs (meaning they could have surveyed the entire battlefield and spotted pretty much all of the hiding Tau). Considering too that they track movement (any movement), as well any emissions, be it any gas or heat (for example somebody using a jetpack) I'm honestly not too sure how they'd have a hard time spotting Stealth Teams. Even in previous lore Stealth Suits were at their best when combined with some other way of camouflaging them, such as when it's night, because even though you know where in the general area something is, hitting it accurately enough to cause damage is another matter entirely. I did use the Horus Heresy ones as examples of ones that do still have rules (they still use them everywhere in M41) but then again Forgeworld does a lot of things like that, for example their Digital Weapons work a fair bit differently. Of course the book completely forgets that the Imperium have any sort of scanners at all, while at the same time giving the Tau Star-trek like scanners. I've also been trying to avoid mentioning the fact that the Guards coms are down and the Tau's were not, mainly because the obvious solution is to use the Astropaths that they're supposed to have to communicate with the fleet (or even just Sanctioned Psykers), but we both know they don't have them because that would be cheating. -- Triacom (talk) 05:56, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
A) I seriously doubt it considering the huge range advantage of railguns over anything the Sentinels or HW teams can bring. Emperor's Talon Sentinels were destroyed by Armoured Interdiction cadres, and the ones attached to the Emperor's Shield aren't that difficult to deal with and were also attacked by Pathfinders too (which could mean more seeker misiles). Let us remember it was them who first crippled the EShield's armour support to begin with, and they also had Russes with them. And when those tanks fired upon each other to knock off the battlesuits, were they also shooting with tank-killing guns? Shoot heavy caliber weapons near your own tanks, the Emperor will know His own; shoot them with giant melta shotguns at close range, strive to make their deaths useful. I mean, regular Heavy Bolters already pack enough punch to fend off boarders and Russes wouldn't have any concerns about showering each other with fist-sized shells. I don't think you absolutely need to bring a specialized tank variant when you could bring yet more Russes. We do need more descriptions of Tau casualties instead of merely stated they that "casualties were rising". And it surprises me how Stark is undefeated but forgets basic things like artillery, which is one of the most downlplayed things in the book. C) Yeah, I thought so xD. Well, the way you describe it sounds like they behave similar to aircraft transponders, but shooting "not on your dudes" doesn't really translate to "hitting their dudes". I mean they're under a storm and a comms jam, man. There has to be something that blocks those scanners of yours. D) Because they were advancing, trying to close the gap. And why would they want to do that if they have similar range? Because at 48" they can also fire their Lascannons, and if they give those Hammerheads some respite then they'll be constantly outgunned. Force those skimmers to move at cruising speed and incoming fire becomes TL snapshots. E) Besides "scanner" I also used "auspex" and "augur" (which here function more like transponders rather than like radars). And you don't need to make no emissions to be stealthy, you just need to direct them away from enemy receptors - you could get a relatively cool jetpacks if they operate more like a turbofan instead of like a turbojet. Or have an actual fan. Or have grav tech, it doesn't need to behave like a flamethrower for them to move around. And yes, psykers are the solution - they don't care jamms or even about invisibility. I thought the Violet-eyed Cadians had bucketloads of psykers because of their proximity to the Eye. Why don't you let them bring any, author?! -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 09:22, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
A) The issue isn't range, it's quantity. If they're focusing on the HW or the Sentinels then they aren't focusing on the Russ's, and if they're focusing on the Russ's then the HW and Sentinels would have more than enough time to get into position, not to mention there are so many HW and Railguns are so inept at killing large amounts of regular Infantry I don't think for a second they'd be able to kill them all. I'm also not too sure where you're getting this seeker missile thing from, sure they were wrecked initially by seeker missiles, but on P.35 Pathfinders and Strike Teams take care of Sentinels, somehow and they don't have seeker missiles, and no vehicles with seeker missiles were mentioned to be anywhere near them. "And when those tanks fired upon each other to knock off the battlesuits, were they also shooting with tank-killing guns?" Yes. Also if you remember Heavy Bolters don't do shit to the battlesuits in this book: "more red-armoured battlesuits bounded up to join the first wave. Heavy bolter shells hit them, clanging again and again off their armour, but seldom finding purchase." The only time one does anything at all is when it knocks a battlesuit over so Pask can crush it. Also if you remember earlier Devil Dogs were only one suggestion, I said they could have regular Hellhounds with them since the Russ's wouldn't care if they're covered in flame. C) Yes that doesn't completely translate, but there's so many ships armed with warheads that they could've lanced the entire desert without worrying about ammunition. "There has to be something that blocks those scanners of yours." I honestly can't think of anything, the most anybody does to throw them off is make false positives to trick them, but to be fair there's nothing that blocks the Tau's scanners either. D) So it's just impossible to go around? It's a huge desert, there'd be cover somewhere, back up and go around, and if they approach from an angle that isn't good for the Hammerheads, then the Hammerheads need to rise up and expose themselves to move to a better location. Also none of the tanks are mentioned as having Lascannons (presumably if they did Farsight would have gotten shot when he went after the armoured column). E) Where are you getting that they're more like transponders from? In everything they've always been a type of radar. I'll give you that their jetpacks don't have to use standard fire, but at the same time they clearly let out some sort of emissions, also what do you mean you need to direct them away from enemy receptors? Scanners spot movement (and a lot more but that's besides the point), not just heat. I'm still sticking to "that would be cheating" for why they're not allowed Psykers though. -- Triacom (talk) 10:29, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
A) But the HW teams are being killed by Hunter Cadres instead of by the Hammerheads, it's an already solved issue. The Hammerheads killed the Talon Sentinels in one salvo before focusing their attention on the Russes (dumb Sentinels going at the front, forgetting they're made of paper and the like), while HW teams were engaged by Hunter Cadres and eventualy got left behind (because their max range is 48", they can't fire on the move and the Hammerheads were moving backwards). And how do you think a Pathfinder team would normaly deal with vehicles if not by using seeker misiles (inf range, and Skyrays were present). But allright, say they used their rail rifles - a penetration would explode them on a 4+. Damn stupid sexy Crisis suits, heavy bolters should do more damage than inferno cannons because of their rate of fire. Grab Heavy flamer sponsons then. I was worried the fire would seep in through the vents, vision slits or something and burn the crew/detonate the ammo, but if you say they're sealed then allright. My first proposal was melta because instand death and high AP. Then again, Pask shrugs one off his tank (cracked armour meaning 1W) and runs over him, I think that was a good enough crunch representation. Supposedly Russes aren't so easily destroyed by railguns, so I'd think that bringing more of them could overwhelm their defenses (except that it does not happen in the book), as long as they bring AA support (a Hydra forces Bravestorm to use his plot armour on p.72). So, instead of bringing specialized flamer tanks, why not bring moar Russes? Sure, Hellhound-family tanks are fast and the like but I question their resilience and their role is perhaps too specialized - vanilla tanks aren't bad. C) Oh, I'm sure they have enough lances to turn the desert into glass, and storms + radiation would clutter scans with static. If any side has IR vision, I don't think that one would be affected. Both sides should have visual of one another, but clouds do block IR, so they'd be obscured from the fleet. D) Going around was the wisest thing to do, that's why Pask did it. I find it odd an officer like him cannot rally others to follow him due to being too focused on doing his thing. Then again, he better has a loud enough voice to be heard over the buzzing of their comms. And "lascannon beams and the distinctive contrails left by railguns criscrossed the battlefield" (p.38). It's kinda difficult to bring a forward 45° gun to bear when a battlesuit jumps on your rearguard squadmate, but they did opened fire: "The armour's reflective liquid metal coating could defeat even beam technology (BS, plz author, I seriously hope you're talking about lasguns). Shield drones hovered near the battlesuits too, blanketing their charges with invisible barriers capable of stopping a direct hit from a lascannon. Yet...the red-armoured battlesuits were blasted away by the dozen. The momentum of the battle had shifted" (p.64). And Farsight wasn't targeted because he jumps, stabs and jumps away. That and plot armour, obviously. E) Well, from you description. Friend-or-foe identifyers work by recieving a signal and emitting their own, which is a concept different from merely detecting a shape via radar. To me, Augury arrays are radars. In the IG codex however, Augur Arrays are mere deep strike beacons. Then again, that's what a IRL transponder is (I've been talking about the aeronatic version of transponders, like when you select your sqwack code at the airport). I like the HH radar version more and I've always pictured them as something similar to the alien's heartbeat sensor, would that be accurate? But what you're describing is an aviation transponder, and Tau obviously wont respond to them, only your troops (which is why I said knowing where your troops were didn't mean knowing the Tau positions). I hope the have the bigger version available, I mean, does the hand-held augur has enough range? About the stealth suits, sound is movement (pressure waves) and even that was muffled, not to mention the whole storm thing. They'd emit enough emissions to be detected by scanners, but only at close range, ie: -18". And psykers is cheating, but so is being cloacked all day long. I really wanted to see that Psykana division in action. Or any Commissar, really. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 20:20, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
A) I thought we already went over how the Hellhounds could take care of the Strike Teams and Pathfinders. "And how do you think a Pathfinder team would normaly deal with vehicles if not by using seeker misiles" Well I'd think by using those, however they're not mentioned as using them in this book, so I'm assuming it's because this book is terrible. I'm also assuming the guard forget to bring along any armoured sentinels (AV 12) so that strategy would work. Oh, so they did have Hydra's, how did they get through then? I guess the guard brought along only ONE Hydra. Also Russ's can't take care of everything unless you bring along specialized variants, and there's only one of those mentioned in the army (the one that Pask favours, which is bullshit since he's supposed to have mastered and equally like all of them). C) But you can calibrate the scanners, I did mention that they detect more than heat and movement, it's not like they're just something that could be easily fooled, which is one of the reasons the Imperium has kept using them for so long. D) I also find it odd that Pask couldn't make everyone follow his lead, considering he's supposed to be a Tank Commander, but in this book they switch Longstrike and Pask's abilities, so there we go. I also find it strange that going around didn't occur to any of the other officers in the tanks. Are you so sure those Lascannons were from the Russ's and not the Baneblade? "The best Tau pilots kept calm, using their craft’s speed and tight turning radius to keep obstacles between themselves and the Leman Russ squadrons, snapping off shots as they moved. Those pilots who halted, or took too long to aim, were soon met by the hull-crumpling fire of massed battle cannons." There's nothing in there about the Leman Russ's having Lascannons. The Baneblade is also specifically mentioned as having Lascannons later in its specific entry, and the only time the Lascannons are mentioned in the tank battle is when the Baneblade joins the fight (which also raises the question of why the Baneblade waited so long). E) Oh, so THAT'S where you're getting it from. Augur Arrays aren't scanners, they're arrays specifically made for Augurs (scanners on their ships) to use as a reference. As I said the Guard's handheld versions are called Surveyors and their vehicle/building versions are just called Scanners. The handheld version doesn't have that much range admittedly, however I also learned that there's another version of the scanner that is larger than the Surveyor, and smaller than the vehicle/building versions has ridiculous range (in terms of crunch, it has infinite range). Before you ask, yes Cadians have them (and in fact, that's a Cadian in the picture). I think even if we did see the Psykana division in action, that would all be part of Farsight's plan and they'd have some Dues Ex Machina to protect them. -- Triacom (talk) 22:53, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
A) "Pathfinder teams...used their markerlights to target every vehicle in the leading Leman Russ squadron. Streaking faster than the eye could follow, volleys of seeker missiles locked on, striking the vehicles in the rear where their armour was thinner". Taking this as precedent, we could assume they'd use the same tactic against other vehicles. And I assumed the ETalon's Sentinels were Armoured (I'd use them that way) and their AV12 still succumbed to Railguns, which is why I'm questioning the use of Hellhounds; while EShield's Sentinels were the scout version and were taken care of by the Hunter Cadres. Here, if they have had Hellhounds with them it would have been useful and agree with EBlade's formation, but it'd also depend on Tau not using more seeker missiles against them (which becomes bullshit grade on some parts, where they blot out the sun and the like). And yes, it seems IG's artillery division was one Hydra and half of a Basilisk xD. Seriously downplayed, which is synonym of "bullshit". And Tau aren't too heavily armoured, so that the standard Battlecannon variant, which is also 72" would feel exactly as a Railgun to them (S10 vs AV14 & S6 AP4 vs T3 5+ Guardsmen = S8 vs AV12 & S8 AP3 vs T4 3+ Battlesuits). Pask can use all Russ variants, it just happened he was using the Vanquisher variant this time. C) Then the imperium would never be ambushed. Ever. A force that can never be taken by surprise and can end almost all engagements with orbital bombardments, then, would land battles other than PDF holdouts and Zones mortalis against the imperium have any reason to exist? D) Indeed. If the author was based entirely on the crunch then Pask would be the freaking warlord as he usualy is on many IG lists. And because it just mentions lascannons without naming the wielder, the only thing we can inferr from it is that they aren't from either HW teams nor Sentinels. E) I'm assuming that version could be very well folded and carried in a Chimera but would need to be deployed, unlike the Tau Recon drone. Are Augers and Augurs the same thing that people keep misspelling like "then" and "than" or are they different things? And now that you mention psykers and deus ex machinas, it would have been nice to see those Molochite talismans in action again. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 00:25, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
A) We can't assume that much about the Tau, otherwise we could do the same for the Imperials doing smart things, and would it really be any surprise if they were able to take down the Sentinels with the wrong weapons for the job? I think that's the least of the scene's problems. Also the pathfinder teams can only be armed with rail rifles, which are too weak to penetrate. As for Pask's favouritism: "For most engagements, Pask preferred to situate his tank amidst his personal squadron, using his long-barrelled vanquisher cannon to destroy whichever foe he deemed to be the most dangerous opposition to his tank." That's not in reference to the fight against the Tau, that's in general, as in nearly every fight he's been in, he also never leaves his Vanquisher during the entire fight. C) Actually that's what happens in most books, how the Imperium gets caught off-guard is they know something is coming, but they don't know how many there are, or what it is. If this was a good book the Guard would know the Tau were coming but wouldn't know for sure if they were pathfinders, drones, battlesuits or stealth teams. They can still be caught by surprise though, rapid and unforeseen attacks by beings who can't be detected by scanners until they arrive such as Daemons, Chaos Space Marines, Eldar or Dark Eldar appearing from the warp/webway can still all catch them by surprise since scanners can only pick up what's already there (they don't give you some ability to see into the future and know where and when the enemy teleporting in will be). Also for the vast majority of fights, there's a space battle to keep the ships occupied so they're usually not in any position to give the ground forces assistance. E) Actually it usually is moved by transport of some kind (when collapsed it can be carried by one person), however since it works inside buildings (detecting things outside of it) I don't really see why it wouldn't work inside of something like a Chimera. I'm not sure what you mean with the question about augers, there's just the regular augurs, which are the scanners on-board the ships, then there's the arrays which the augurs on-board the ship use as a reference for pinpoint accuracy. I was actually thinking about the talismans when writing that bit too, which actually would explain why the named characters are protected (there's three, one for Aun'Va, one for Shadowsun, and one for Farsight) while letting the Psykers contribute to the main battle. -- Triacom (talk) 01:27, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
A) Assuming Pathfinders use seeker missiles isn't that much of a stretch, not to mention Sentinels are AV10 on most facings, and I was thinking the ones attached to infantry were the Scout version because 'Forward Recon' gives infantry MTC but only Scout Sentinels have MTC themselves (in order to keep pace with them). And were you expecting Pask to suddenly step out of his tank to man a Punisher or something? C) No, I mean doing Kauyons against the imperium would be extremely hard because they don't deep strike on them, they just hide reserves nearby. And the imperial navy is very powerful, so it's easy for them to gain space dominance, not to mention usual Tau strategy is to get the enemy to overextend, both the navy and the land forces. Uncontested, they'd pound them from space all day long. E) Yes, it's moved by vehicle, but I think it has to deploy and set up to function. And I was asking about augurs vs augers, because I don't know which one is the correct one, unlike Ordnance (heavy weapon) vs Ordinance (order). -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 05:50, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
A) It kind of is, otherwise we could just assume the Sentinels were all armed with missile launchers/lascannons and stayed well out of the range of any weapons and markerlights the pathfinders had. I was also not expecting Pask to randomly leave his tank, I'm expecting him to not favour one tank to the exclusion of any others since at no point, in any of the main events of Mont'ka or the flashbacks he's in does he command anything besides a vanquisher. Come to think of it, switching tanks actually would have been really helpful for dealing with the sudden increase in Crisis Suits when Farsight showed up, so after thinking about it, yes I would've expected him to switch tanks. C) Yes doing kauyon's on the Imperium would be nearly impossible, unless your plan relied on them misinterpreting what your plan actually was, for example the shieldwall strategy in kauyon (so long as it's not stupid on top of that, being two or three levels deep in plan I mean). The Tau strategy of making the enemy overextend their resources never really made that much sense to me with how they fight the Imperium. Imperial ships can just completely bypass all standard supply lines by having new appear out of nowhere, and in the end they leave like that too. Sure making the enemy run through most of their resources is a good idea, but the Imperium usually shows up with so much that it should take several planets of fighting before they start running a little empty (which actually happened in the original Damocles Crusade) and the Tau don't really have any way of knowing how many reserves the Imperium have left. E) Oh, now I see what you mean, they are different, an Auger is a type of drill, an Augur can mean one of many different things, from an event to an important officer (and I see I accidentally mispelled it a few times, my mistake, it should be spelled as "Augur"). -- Triacom (talk) 06:45, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
A) That's a fair point: almost all Sentinel weapons outrange markerlights, although 10 Pathfinders in Devilfishes would become 1.6 markerhits with an effective range of 48", lessening their disadvantage and further becoming 1.6 seeker missiles. And I expected Pask to get on a new tank after his previous one got wrecked, but at that point I was fed up on him, so I was glad he was out of the spotlight. C) Boooooh. I want Ghostkeels and Stealth teams to have a similar impact to Predator. And the imperium almost always disembarks some miles away from the target. Sometimes there's the excuse of orbital defense guns being present, but other times there's no readily evident reason. And the only chance of success for the defending force against the imperium would be either guerrilla or to use the objective as a meatshield in order to not give them a clear objective to smash. I loved that HH line of the armada being able to destroy a world but not able to capture it. Ultramarines no less. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 09:41, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
A) Markerlights are still heavy weapons though, even if they had Devilfish (which they didn't) lore-wise they wouldn't be able to accurately hit anything, and I know you tried to account for that, but setup time is still a big difference between crunch and lore, by the time they hop out and set up to use Markerlights, the sentinels would have gotten away (because everything is happening at the same time, and they'd need setup time). Also even if they could use that tactic, I don't think they'd be able to deal with the sheer amount of sentinels before they were killed in turn by them, or had their Devilfish blown up by the sentinels (remember, they can have Lascannons). I completely sympathize with your feelings on Pask though, it was obvious how he was going to be taken out after the first real engagement he was in. C) Stealth teams still do have a sort of Predator presence visually, if only because they're one of the many things GW took from 80's action movies (somebody on the design team really liked several Arnold and Stallone films). Usually there's a reason the Guard disembark that far away, getting the heavy armour rolling for example is a pretty good reason, whereas the Space Marines like being right up in their enemies face, also for a pretty good reason. What's funny here is that there's very little reason for the Imperium to want to capture Agrellan, does it offer them supplies they need? Nope. Does it offer some sort of strategic benefit to having it? Nope. Do they want to free the citizens slaves that the Tau captured? Nope. Do they care about the collateral damage they inflict upon it? Nope. So why didn't they just use a Cyclonic Torpedo then as soon as they dominated the space battle? Once again I'll bring up the original Damocles Crusade, when the Imperium came across an ice planet that the Tau had captured and made habitable, they noticed it offered them no strategic value and no noticeable resources, so they performed an orbital bombardment on the poles of the planet, melting the ice which flooded the planet and killed all of the Tau on it, and then wrote it off as "uninhabitable", because why would you waste ground soldiers on a planet when there's nothing to be gained? Agrellan is after all, a planet that already had Exterminatus performed on it once before, and the only reason that doesn't happen now is because the Tau have to win. -- Triacom (talk) 11:17, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
A) I thought it was like this, their type as heavy weapons representing the difficulty of moving with any semblance of speed while mantaining the dot reasonably on target instead of the markerlight requiring a set up. Tabletop wise, if those Pathfinders were from a Hunter Cadre they could add another ~7" from running and shooting, thus becoming 52". And the "sheer" amount of Sentinels? It's only up to 9 per each 175 guys, it doesn't sound like too much. It seems Pask did switched tanks in the book...and hopped into another Vanquisher. He seems to like that version. C) On Kauyon's ending they mention they valued the planet's position (enough value to take it but not enough to make it a fortress world instead of a china-smog world, beats me), but I guess Arcotholitis said "Fuck it". After all, it was his idea alone to commence the exterminatus (sanctioned by the respective authorities). -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 19:54, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
A) Fair point, though I'd think their need to keep the light on the target for as much time as they need would also mean the Sentinels would get away. Also the units cannot be from a Hunter Cadre because they don't have several things like any battlesuits of any kind, also if it's 9 sentinels per 175 Guardsmen then that means there's ~1850 Sentinels in each spearhead, that's quite a lot (and that's only counting at the main regiments). That's also what I mean about Pask, maybe I wouldn't be as annoyed if it wasn't for this: "All of these skills were so instinctual to him that Pask could not find the words to explain these experiences or share his battle wisdom with the rest of his regiment. Nor did it ever occur to him to try." When previously Pask was teaching his crew how to be better shots. He's from Cadia for fuck's sake! The Guardsmen there need all the help they can get in holding back the forces of Chaos, to have him not even think about training anyone is just dumb. C) See, how I read that is the only reason its location is valuable is because the Tau need it, look at the map again, it's the only world that's halfway into the gulf besides the knight world they never managed to get. Performing Exterminatus would rob them of that, and passing through the gulf would become far more dangerous since there'd be no planet where you could stop, make repairs and gain resources. Even after Arcotholitis asked for the Exterminatus I still don't get why they didn't go with a cyclonic torpedo. -- Triacom (talk) 20:51, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
A) "Little did they suspect that they were charging headlong into the targeting grids of Shadowsun's massed Hunter and Armoured Interdiction Cadres". And this narrated the ambush on Shaposhnick's company, so that'd be 27 Sentinels tops. Several Companies, yeah, but massed Cadress too. Yes, Pask's attitude was dumb. You could have him be more considerate and still only rally 8 Russes to him because of the jams using hand signals, but this description makes him look as a rather closed officer. C) Agreed. Do Taskforce ships usually carry Exterminatus munitions or a special Exterminatus fleet has to be sent like in DoW2? If that's the case then maybe the firebomb was an improvised measure. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 22:35, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
A) That was a different battle, also there's still no Crisis battlesuits, so those "Hunter Cadres" wouldn't technically be a Hunter Cadre formation (and so wouldn't get the bonuses for it). Also the ambush the Captain falls into doesn't have much to do with the later tank battle, aside from calling a lot more heavy armour to the area, meaning a lot more Sentinels. I'm not too sure how you got to talking about that when I was always talking about the battle on P.35 (A Clash of Armour). If we were to talk about the Ambush at the Black Ruins then the problem is solved by "they should have spotted them with their scanners" and that's it. C) That depends exclusively on the type of ship that they have, however since they do mention they had a Lord Admiral, and since Shrike is there, they'd have to have at the absolute minimum, at least two ships who'd be armed with Cyclonic torpedoes. The reason they called an Exterminatus fleet in DoW2 is because they didn't have any ships in the area capable of launching them. -- Triacom (talk) 23:50, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
A) What I'm saying is that those Sentinels are from the previous battle's survivors, ie. Shaposhnick's: "The broken remnants of the previous Imperial Guard companies tried to work forward...LONE Sentinels stalked closer...they were met in turn by Strike Teams and Pathfinders" also in p.35, and those Strike teams and Pathfinders I'm assuming belong to the "massed Hunter cadres" from the previous page. This is after the ETalon's Sentinels were destroyed, so that reinforces the idea that they aren't the same Sentinels. Can't blame you from trying to solve everything with scanners while Tau solve theirs with seeker missiles tho. C) Being that the case then yeah, that'd prevent W:Mont'Ka from existing and no reason for my red suits to return, sigh. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 01:01, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
A) Sorry but I'm having trouble understanding you here: "What I'm saying is that those Sentinels are from the previous battle's survivors... This is after the ETalon's Sentinels were destroyed, so that reinforces the idea that they aren't the same Sentinels." So are they the same sentinels or aren't they? Because either way they should have gotten sentinel reinforcements regardless when the call for armour went out. C) No need to get hasty, we might have had Warzone: Leviathan where the Enclaves have to fight against the hive fleet that's about to devour them, though if it was just as poorly written as this I doubt it would be any better. -- Triacom (talk) 06:26, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
A) Yes, there were two sources of Sentinels: Emperor's Talon "dedicated" Sentinel squads and the ones attached to Emperor's Shield infantry formations. The Talon is stated to be destroyed by weapons commonly found on Hammerheads, so I'd say the Armoured Interdiction Cadres did it, but then they got busy with the Russes. That leaves the Sentinels from the Emperor's shield free to lend heavy weapons support, but being engaged by Hunter cadres they couldn't contribute against the Hammerheads and stayed behind to help their infantry platoons. C) I always thought that killing a Hive Fleet with poison was a weak strategy, given Tyranids can adapt at fast speeds. You'd need to poison everything at the same time and then have the poison begin to act - combat with Tyranids should invariably turn into Iyandens or Macragges, instead of what happens on Viorlos. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 07:31, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
A) And now we get back to the main question I had, how do Pathfinder and Strike Teams take the Sentinels out without any vehicle support? You claimed we could assume they used other seeker missiles (presumably off the hammerheads shooting at the Russ's) however I pointed out that the Sentinels could easily keep them at range, especially since they don't have transports in that battle, and then it got sidetracked for a while. C) I also thought it was dumb that the entire Hive fleet dies to the poison gas, how exactly does that work? Not every ship takes the resources from the planet, and in fact some of them are completely incapable of doing that, whereas here they outdo Nurgle as far as corrosive poisons go.
A) At least the Strike teams have transports, as it's stated they arrived in Devilfishes for the ambush - it's not like those transports abandoned them to wait for the retaliation. And Devilfishes may also carry missiles, but I thought those came from Skyrays TBH. That's disregarding Shadowsun's use of other Enclave's formations (even though she uses Piranha Firestreams and Pathfinders from Ranged Support cadres have Infiltrate and Shrouded). C) It was only a quarter of the hive fleet, and I thought the world eating ships would share resources with the rest of the ships, because they were reeling from losing the other 3/4 to the Tau armada (come to think about it, how are ships born? It's the birds and the Tyranids talk). Replaying DoW2, now I come to realize a joint attack from both poison and the fleet would be an intelligent course of action, as the poison would hurt them (but not single-handedly kill them) enough for the rest of the fleet to have a chance. Unless what sent them into disarray was the death of the Hive Tyrant, which would be dumb since they are merely resurrected wherever they are needed. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 21:33, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
A) Why wouldn't the Devilfish either leave or get blown up? They stay, they die, and you still can't assume they kept them or I'm free in assuming Manticores took out the Pathfinders and somehow the Strike Teams dealt with the Sentinels. "That's disregarding Shadowsun's use of other Enclave's formations" Sorry, how exactly is it disregarding that? C) I always thought it was specific ships that birthed more ships, sharing resources with attack craft wouldn't do anything. -- Triacom (talk) 22:33, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
A) "Disregarding" in the sense they didn't mention the presence of Ranged support cadres, which would have been a better asset (because Broadsides) and explain the hidden presence of Pathfinders. And what Manticores? The artillery companies were still en route from the landing zone because Stark had rushed froward and Shaposhnick rushed even more because he didn't want to disapoint. And you say it as if it was a mystery how S5 kills AV10. Artillery elements (a single Hydra lol) are seen catching up with the Russes later, and later they're seen firing barrages on 'The Grand Assault'. C) Those birthing ships would need resources to do their jobs, biomass given to them by other ships, and with it the poison. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 23:37, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
A) If they get the formation bonuses even though they're not the right formation then why can't I say the Guard have Manticores since by that point the Russ companies had caught up? I don't think the author knew what they were talking about when they wrote that formation into the lore (which is quite frankly the least of this book's problems). Also it is a mystery how 30" S5-S6 manages to kill 48" AV12, since we both agreed that the Sentinels should've been armoured. Also even if they weren't armoured the Pathfinders and Strike teams should've been unable to catch them, and before you start on the Devilfish bit again, I'd like for you to point out one single time in "A Clash of Armour" where it mentions any Devilfish of any kind. C) Oh I definitely agree there, however my point was that it only made sense for those ships, and the ones who fed off the planet to get the poison, it didn't make sense for literally every ship to get sick and die when a lot of them had nothing to do with the feeding process. I'm also very curious how the air Caste destroyed 75% of the fleet without any real issue (that sounds far more interesting), but much like a lot of this book, we don't get to see that happen. -- Triacom (talk) 07:54, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
A) Mainly because what had caught up were the Russes, not the artillery, and even when they technically don't need to catch up, the infantry had no way to rely the firing solutions to them and the Hammerheads were constantly on the move. And I said the attached Sentinels were the Scout version. A Devilfish could easily close in considering they can move at cruising speed and jink but walkers move at infantry speed, while Hunter cadre infantry can also run & shoot. It mentions those cadres arrived on them, I assumed they remained with them because Tau are always retreating, and it's easier to escape when you have a transport. C) Picture them like an organism where ones do the breathing and share it with the others. If the gas bag of a ManOWar dies it becomes easy prey for the other animals, even though the tentacles still have poison. Poisoning would send them into disarray, but not exterminate them outright, even if it wasn't a poison but a bacteria. Hell, even then, Tyranids falling prey to a disease? It's not the War of the Worlds xD, dammit O'Vesa, poison would have been more credible. And I thought this hive fleet was big - last time a cruiser had to become a warp bomb to win, and Iyanden's fleet got spent trying to destroy them. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 16:42, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
A) The Hammerheads weren't constantly on the move, they'd sit down, blow up the Russes, and then leave when the Russes got closer, if they were strafing around them the entire time, THEN they'd constantly be on the move. Also the Artillery does have their own (slightly inaccurate) computers, they don't need others to relay them information unless they want pinpoint shots. I'm also going to have to repeat what I said earlier, the "Hunter Cadre" wouldn't have the extra rules because they're not an actual Hunter Cadre, and before you bring up the Devilfish again, please tell me where they show up in A Clash of Armour. Anywhere in that section. You can't assume they stayed with them or I can assume the Guard had artillery since they arrived with them. C) The Tyranids don't work like that, a lot of ships are independent. I do agree that having them fall prey to disease was stupid especially since fucking NURGLE couldn't accomplish that, so somehow O'Vesa outdid him. -- Triacom (talk) 21:30, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
A) Oh, you're right, they retreat at the end of 'Clash of Armour' until the beginning of 'Move and Countermove', not before. But if the infantry forces aren't the "massed Hunter cadres" then what are thooose? No mention of their Devilfishes is made in that specific chapter, but then again, the cadres are mentioned in only two sentences there, and precedent of their Devilfishes was made on the previous two chapters, as well as the absence of artillery. C) I did say it wouldn't kill the fleet, no? A lot of ships are independent the same way a considerable number collect biomass, and losing that amount could save you some trouble, like when the relatively undermanned Blood Ravens defeat the remnants of the hive fleet. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 07:21, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
Those are the strange teleporting Tau that have the ability to appear and disappear wherever it's narratively convenient. Don't be too surprised, they show up in most of the battles, even in halfway decent stories. I'm also not arguing about the poison killing the fleet, I'm agreeing with you there. I also said much earlier in this discussion that it would have made more sense if the poison damaged the Tyranids' fleet and then it was finished off, either by Farsight's fleet or when they attacked the next planet. -- Triacom (talk) 09:53, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
Funny when the videogame does it better than the rulebook. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 19:18, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
One more thing on that note though, if you really wanted the right Guard force to take on the Tau, then I agree that they should go with the Death Korps, as even aside from what you mention the Korps way of underground fighting would have really screwed the Tau over (and would have stopped the final battle from happening in the first place), or the Elysian's (though sandstorms on that planet kind of prevent this, they would have been the perfect force in Kauyon) who are pretty much made to counter everything the Tau specialize in. Sending the Cadians in then having them do this terribly is just a joke (especially since the Cadians are supposed to be defending a far more important planet). -- Triacom (talk) 09:25, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
Wouldn't Tau's abundance of Interceptor and Skyfire with high S weapons severily hinder Elysians? And I didn't mention Krieg's underground warfare because I was afraid the Tau would induce artificial earthquakes to collapse the tunnels or something like that. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 10:31, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
Only if the Elysians engage in a standard gunfight, and since the Tau hate to set up stationary defences (against ground troops) and only take the battle as it comes the Elysians can easily catch them flat-footed before they've readied all of their defences, and in fact in the Taros Campaign that's exactly what they do, though that was also a pretty bad book (though not nearly as terrible as this). As far as them causing localized earthquakes go, the Korps have a lot of drills, and I do mean a LOT of drills, not to mention they don't have any concept of preserving their own lives, and the technology for causing the earthquakes is extremely rare, it would even be laughable for the Tau on the planet to have it at all. Even if they did have it and collapsed a few tunnels, most of the drills wouldn't care, and that's also assuming the Korps don't set up the tunnels correctly, they're killed in the collapse, the Tau discover they're making the tunnels in the first place, and the Tau manage to cause a large earthquake, whereas their normal ability to do so is extremely limited, and can only be done once per device. -- Triacom (talk) 20:59, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
Weren't the Elysians sent into disarray when they lost their air support and the element of surprise? And on Taros they stormed a human water plant, on Prefectia/Agrellan their light armour support would be easy prey for the railguns of the Tau mobile walls. Crunch wise most lists have plenty of Early Warning Overrides, and on the fluff they'd be prey of vertical Crisis suit attacks, only getting to the ground alive because the are too many to kill. And about earthquakes, isn't that the seismic fibrillation node's very job? Luckily, O'Vesa's gimmicks aren't so widely available to the general Tau. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 15:43, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
They were sent into disarray when they attempted to defend against the Tau who had gotten fully mobilized, losing their air support and the element of surprise only had a small amount to do with that. They're supposed to specialize in rapid insertions against unprepared enemies (even though they're fully trained to fight against regular forces as well) and if they stuck to that, were pulled out then re-inserted like they're supposed to be they would have crippled multiple Tau bases (and then we wouldn't have had that really stupid scene with the Eversor), especially since all the Tau fluff besides the two most recent shitty books portrays the Tau as being terrible on defence (and even in these two books they were only good at defence in Kauyon thanks to plot armour and the fact that they had prep time, and in Mont'ka it's entirely due to plot armour) because they hate building any static defences of any kind. By the time the shieldwalls are set up or the pilots are in the suits, the battle would be nearly over and the rest of the Guard would have arrived to take on the suits (since once again, the guard are supposed to support each other), and the only way they'd be threats to the Elysians is if the Elysians arrive in a straight-up fight after giving the Tau time to prep, which is a terrible misuse of them. As for the earthquakes, yes, that's what the seismic fibrillation node does, but I covered that already, their ability to make earthquakes is very limited, in intensity, size, and uses. It would be literally impossible for them to collapse all of the tunnels and even then, they'd have to know that the Korps were digging them in the first place and where they were digging them. -- Triacom (talk) 17:30, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
Well, their buildings aren't static anymore and it seems they love them. I'd use a Tidewall Gunfort instead of 3 Devilfishes almost every time. Not to mention current Tau lists seem to love Interceptor too - fluff wise they'd be easy to intercept because they don't fall at supersonic speeds like Drop pods, and Tau have very competent intel adquisition resources who'd call an alarm (which does happen on Taros). Not to mention they also have Skyfire, which would counter their Valkyrie DTs, and they lack heavy armour. The worst thing that could happen to unprepared Tau would be strike teams out of place (who leaves a Railgun unmanned?), Battlesuits would be in position after one turn. And why would a pilot not be inside his suit? This isn't the First Sphere anymore, suits have much increased autonomy. If I had one you could bet I'd even sleep inside it. And I think the Eversor scene was downplayed because it didn't look gory enough for me. I was worried the Kriegers would be detected by Tau microphones, but they're too many to be stopped anyway (their list is terribly outdated so it's hard to make comparisons with them). -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 20:14, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
Their buildings still need to be set up and they're useless once you get behind them. If you remember the only reason Shadowsun used them and they worked was because A) she knew where the enemy was coming from, B) she had prep-time, and C) she had a force fully mobilized behind said walls. Even their Interceptor weapons still need to be (mostly) manned and when there's no conflict actively going on or that they're preparing for right then and there, they aren't in their suits. Once again that's how the Elysians were so successful in the Taros campaign (initially), if you catch the Tau unprepared, they're screwed, if they get ready for you, you're going to have a hell of an uphill battle. Also the alarm did get called, but it was too late to stop most of the Elysians (with the exception of the assassination, but the whole point of that was for them to die in the first place). "And why would a pilot not be inside his suit?" Because the Tau actually can't stay in their suits 24/7, you say you bet you can eat and sleep in one, yet I don't think any Tau has ever been shown to do this. I also think the Eversor was downplayed, not due to lack of gore, but because it's somehow the hardest thing in the world to catch ONE Ethereal and kill him. Come on, that scene reads as if he's a slasher movie villain. -- Triacom (talk) 22:42, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
I was mainly talking about Gunrigs, which are circular. I'm assuming you're using the Elysians with support and attacking a wall on both sides at once (as it should be), because otherwise the wall would become an enclosure and it'd be hillarious. And your reasons about how Shadowsun's walls succeded could be condensed into a single one: because it was her trap. And isn't Interceptor's main strenght to be able to respond to incoming threats? If you knew how or when the enemy is coming, then you could do it yourself. About the pilots, Farsight and Ghostkeel pilots consistently stay inside their suits prolongued periods of time, but you don't need the same pilots inside the same suits at all times: it would be dumb to not have a patrol and suits ready for some unexpected attack, that's the whole point of taking turns when watching over an area. The hydro plant was mostly manned by humans, and being a formerly civilian instalation it was difficult to defend, not to mention they didn't have meaningful interceptor capabilities. Thus, the first drop wasn't really Elysians vs Tau, but Elysians vs traitors + Kroot. Elysians are fine as a mobile asset, which was the main weakness of the IG in Kauyon, but I'm saying they would suffer very heavy casualties when dropping on a proper Tau base, which would count as "prepared". SM Drop Pods would be better suited for that task...unless it was a trap like it always is. Also, I'm saying the Eversor part wasn't gory enough because he didn't need to grab hold of the Ethereal and let himself be killed to detonate: a mere scratch of his neurogauntlet would have sufficed, so he could go on his way to WRYYY more things to death. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 01:59, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
That's pretty much what I'm talking about, yes. I think the reason why Shadowsun's walls succeed is due to a similar, but slightly different reason: She was prepared. Name me one example in previous lore of the Tau not being prepared for a fight and then easily coming out on top, because everything I've seen says that's the most effective way to screw them over. Even when alarms are triggered they're still sluggish to respond because they need more preparation before they can engage the enemy. For Interceptor, knowing where and when the enemy is coming is one thing, being able to accurately hit them is another. Nearly all of the Tau systems that offer Interceptor simply (and automatically) lock the gunman's weapons onto the incoming threat, if there's no gunman currently stationed there, then they can't shoot the surprise attackers. The longest I've seen Farsight stay in his suit for was when he was trying to activate his sage mode (I'm really curious how he didn't die of starvation/dehydration) but otherwise he stays in his suit for less than 24 hours (and even that's fairly generous). Oh it would be dumb not to have patrols, but the Tau put too much of their faith in alarm systems, which actually aren't that bad, it's just that if they're up against a really fast enemy their prep-time is long enough that the enemy will be on them before they're ready, and if there's one thing they've consistently failed to learn throughout nearly every edition now is that you need to have patrols. How many Feral Ork attacks did the Tau fall prey to because they didn't have patrols? Even Aun'shi's group was caught because they didn't bother patrolling the area to make sure there's nothing in it, and to be fair, there's actually a bit of logic to this, their scanners cover a large area, so the mentality is you don't need to patrol it because you already know what's there, the problem however, is that while their scanners can detect incoming enemies and their suits are as ready as they can be, there's still a fair bit of prep-time because the pilot needs to arrive, then suit up, activate everything, then arrive at the contested area and by that time it's usually too late for a lot of Tau. Quite frankly it was actually really surprising that the Tau in this book did have patrols, and equally surprising that the Guard didn't take advantage of this to kill some more Tau. Fair point about the Elysians fighting humans there, though they did fight actual Tau later and caught them flat footed, if they had more Guardsmen, like they're supposed to, or were dropped in from above, like they're supposed to, they stood a pretty good chance (and relying on the Eversor of course) of actually seizing the Tau base they dropped near. I'd also say the Eversor was additionally stupid because he could have finished off the Ethereal in half a second by shooting him with his fucking gun that he forgot he had somehow. -- Triacom (talk) 05:56, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
Shadowsun boils down to "they attacked her, but it was a trap. They had expected that and counterattacked...but that was also part of the trap. In fact, there were another two more layers of traps underneath those, because fuck it, that's how she rolls". Them not being prepared and coming out on top...isn't that the premise of Warzone:Mont'Ka? Easy? "Long ago I surrendered the hope of anything being easy" (except fucking W:Kauyon). And why wouldn't be someone there? Isn't that the whole point of sentries? Even then, they don't need actual Tau to do that job - the Stormtroopers attached to the Elysians get pinned down by a few hidden drone turrets (who gets surprised now huh), and they sometimes place drones in the sand and the like. Sure, having good alarm systems does render obsolete the concept of having actual Tau wandering about, but it's basic logic to always have a portion of a garrison in combat readiness. Defending ground would be hard for Tau, yeah, but they'd probably retreat and hit the enemy when they are overextended - that's how they countered drop pod SM: by packing up when they detected they were coming. And if the Imperium does learn, then Tau learns better (take a note Codex Astartes (sure thing pal)). And about the time Elysians catch the Tau flat footed, where was it (I haven't read all Taros)? I hope you're not talking about the very originally named operation Deathblow, because that was a Valhallan colonel leading some 30 Stormtroopers, a drone sounded the alarm and they deployed near the base instead of above it, and the Tau response wasn't as sluggish as you'd think. It is stated they rushed to man their weapon stations, tho, the dumb blueskins. The Eversor didn't forget to shoot his gun, but discarded it because they only game him like 6 bullets. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 09:22, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
I was under the impression that the premise of Mont'ka was Farsight arriving to save his people when they were clearly doomed, especially since that's how it's portrayed on GW's webpage. "Isn't that the whole point of sentries?" I like how you think the Tau have sentries. The most they have are a few drones, and that's assuming they even remember to hide them in the first place. Maybe if they did have sentries they wouldn't fall prey to so many Feral Ork raids. "but they'd probably retreat and hit the enemy when they are overextended" the problem is when their escape rout is cut off, or they don't have one. If there's Elysians in the front, Elysians in the back, and heavy weapons teams and Valkyries targeting vehicles, now what? Also if their main command center is under attack, are they really going to flee? If they do the best they can hope for is to be spread out and show pursuers where their other bases are. I actually was talking about Deathblow, but it looks like I mistook the Valhallens for Elysians, I still stand by my point though, if they used the Elysians above and had them drop down onto the base, then what are the Tau going to do? They'll rush out, to find the enemy already inside their outer defences and from there it'll turn into a melee/firefight in close proximity, neither of which the Tau are good at and if the Elysians deployed in large numbers, they could easily cover the exits while the Eversor massacres everyone inside. I actually did forget that the Eversor ran out of bullets though (and I had to carefully re-read it just to make sure), because that's complete and utter horseshit. Such complete bullshit that I don't even have any other words to describe that, it would be like giving a Vindicare one bullet for his entire mission to kill his target, or forgetting to give a Callidus her polymorphine, or writing Kauyon followed by Mont'ka, that level of bullshit. -- Triacom (talk) 10:29, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
I'd say it was Longstrike, Pask and the Stormsurges the ones who stole most of the show, not to mention the Tau were saved by heavily downplaying Shrike and the assassins. Wouldn't Pathfinders scouting around count as sentries? I mean, there's ALWAYS some perfectly positioned Pathfinder team to relay info. It mentions them rushing again to man their forts, so it fits both criteria here. And it did come to be that Valkyrie Airborne Assault wings (elysian proxys) joined SM in drop pods, Ogryns and Armoured Regiments on an attack to the Tau HQ, but guess what happened? FARSIGHT EX MACHINA appeared with the ALMIGHTY Mont'Ka and they fell back. Empra knows where, considering they were already on Agrellan Prime, aka the Variable Size Hive. NOT saying "Ah, beating an overwhelming assault, so easy!", but how would you do it? Farsight stalls him, Stark orders a bombardment and regroups but so does Tau. Stormsurges fall, everybody dies, BS fest and they flee. They should have attacked from both sides, but only AdMech dared enter further in the city. Why they didn't teleport en masse to the city? I don't know why the book suddenly forgets about terminators. Against the little HQ base in Taros, sure, that would have killed them all. With enough Elysians anything would fall. In fact, the hydro plant would have fallen if not for the Cadians being delayed and the Tallarns being dead. And yes, the Eversor not getting a reload is actual bullshit. "Writing Kauyon followed by Mont'ka" ow my sides! -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 20:20, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, they would count as sentries, which is why I said I was really surprised the Tau actually had Sentries, they usually don't even have Pathfinders around. Also the fight initially Farsight appeared in wasn't the assault on the main base, it was the desert battle, so they fell back to their main base. Personally how I'd do it is have Farsight arrive, make a fighting retreat and then say "Everyone get on my Dues Ex Machina craft, we are getting the fuck off this planet." I also really want to know why it was so hard to fire orbital bombardments on top of the Stormsurge suits, on top of the Skitarii (leave one for them) none of them should have survived. I also realized something else, the Mechanicus fuck up the enviro-engines, then the next several times they're mentioned is to say that they're still offline and nothing could be done so the Tau can't control the weather (causing electrical storms that do not hinder the battlesuits in any way, even though they did in Kauyon), it then IMMEDIATELY cuts to Shadowsun ordering the enviro-engines to make the final storm, even though by now the engines are in Imperial hands (they're well outside the Tau base) and they suddenly function perfectly fine for no reason. There aren't any additional enviro-engines, because if there were they would've just used those to control the storm. Even if we assume the engines somehow get repaired in the seconds after it mentions they're offline, why don't the orbiting ships just shoot them? They're outside the shield! -- Triacom (talk) 22:53, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
Well, we could agree they have good alarm systems and personnel on reserve (and not on actual patrol). I'm not saying that was the shielded fortress, but it was IMO already within Agrellan Prime due to the clear skies, which means it happened within range of the enviro-engines. Or at least on the outskirts. Yes, they should make a fighting retreat, but having them merely board some vessels and depart isn't that simple because of the logistics involved in moving so many and then evading the imperial blockade. I mean, can 3 Oni-stealth craft evacuate ~half a battlefleet's land personnel? I don't even know what those craft are to begin with. And don't you start with "Imperial ships can detect Oni craft" >:U !. Did the AdMech stole all the enviro-engines or just the vital components of the main cluster? Was this irreparable damage? Maybe, as it mentions some reactors detonating, it could have been the former enviro-engines, and that should hinder their ability to control the weather "with pinpoint accuracy" - I may add that to the article. If there were onther banks of air scrubbing machines however, I'd place them inside the shiled. Come to think of it, I'd place everything inside the shield. And the lightning on Prefectia were either Electromines or Psionic storms - that's different from regular lightning, not to mention it should do what it does to modern regular airplanes: nothing. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 00:25, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
I can agree on that, personally I chalk up the Tau not having sentries and patrols to a general overconfidence in their technology. I don't want to say that it was already inside Agrellan Prime, because if it was the Tau shouldn't have had that much time to regroup, plan, set up the ambush and their defensive positions. If you remember too before the final battle the Tau are all in one building, and they arrived in bullshit "prototype" craft that somehow let them sneak past the Imperial blockade, they could make a few trips with the Orca's and Manta's they brought, and then leave while a good portion of the Fire Caste stays behind to buy as much time for them as possible. I'm not going to go on about how they "should" be able to detect oni craft because as far as I'm aware they're entirely new, and I have no idea how they work, it's why I've been calling them the Dues Ex Machina craft, because they seem to do whatever they need to, maybe Farsight equipped them all with firestorm immune shields too, you know, just in case. As for how much is taken from the engines, they stripped them almost entirely: "When reactor drives, ion cylinders and other precious tech had all been removed, the air shimmered once again, and just like that, the Tech-Priest and his War Cohort were gone." I also just noticed I needed to correct something, there are other engines, but they're all networked together in such a way that when the largest of them went offline, they all went offline, and my main point still stands, the book says they're offline and that they've lost control of the weather, and then immediately, about one paragraph later, has Shadowsun ordering the enviro-engineers to get ready to make the final storm, HOW?! Even if it was possible to repair the engine, they can't even get to it! Also don't try claiming they built another one, they shouldn't have had the time. Fair point about the lightning though. There's also another thing I've noticed, is their shield incapable of stopping the storm they've made? It reaches up so high you'd think it should be well above the shield, and goes so low that the Guardsmen who emerge get picked off the second the Tau can see them, which should mean that the storm is both inside and outside the shield right? Unless the part the storm stops at is right outside the shield, but then that means the Tau who entered the storm to hunt the Guardsmen should be vulnerable to the weapons the Guard had outside the shield. -- Triacom (talk) 01:27, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
Now that I look at the map it would seem like the battle at Blackfossil ridge happens at least as half way from Agrellan Prime to the Black Ruins or closer, which would reveal the enviro-network as a ring array. The description of the AdMech snatching parts of the engine instead of stealing them whole was what made me question the severity of the damage, especially because "integral parts were taken from the largest of the networked enviro-engines" on p.66 makes it sound as if that's not the only one, and it's again downplayed on p.80 with "...had done considerable damage to the outer defenses and SOME of the air-scrubbing machineries", which is phrased as if there were several other engines (and there should be, a single air scrubber can't clean all of Agrellan and a network is mentioned). So, maybe what they did was to reduce their radius of influence? And about the dimensions of the storm, which technically is a hurricane, have you ever been inside of one? It's not only overcast skies with rain, but the thing also touches the ground, and it's not localized like a tornado. It's fucking strong winds all over the place, except for the calm eye, which I've never been to. Just picture it like this: rain falls at an angle because of the wind, and a little humidity may slip under the windows. Here it was so much rain and so much wind the second floor was getting flooded before the first one, and the wind was so constant we were able to pour the water away on the wind's shadow at the other side of the house. Now imagine the water is radioactive sand, visibility is ~20m and that's Agrellan. Now, as long as the eye is bigger than the shield both could coexist without problem. I'm saying it's bigger because Tau infiltrators had to go into the storm (thus leave the fortress), and the few things that crossed through were attacked on the other side (ie waiting in the fortress, safe from the storm). Yes, those who infiltrated the storm were vulnerable to IG artillery, provided their orders were "help the Tau by firing blind barrages near our own men". And the Oni ships would only be able to make one trip, not to mention a diminished garrison would be swiftly destroyed then. But Grimdark and sacrifice for the greater good so, yeah?. TL;DR: Tau weather control got diminished but is still there, and the storm also touches the ground but is clearing the fortress. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 05:50, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
I think that the air scrubbers probably only scrub air, and don't really have anything to do with causing the storm, and if they could still control the weather with reduced influence, why doesn't it mention that? Why does it say the exact opposite: "With the Tau enviro-engines still offline, the entire middle-continental region was once again subjected to the fury of the polluted sandstorms..." If the enviro-engines were still working I'd think they wouldn't be offline (and at no point does it mention the Tau bringing them online after that). In fact, the book makes it sound like the storm happens the way the Tau want completely by accident: "It was Colonel Starkzahn’s idea to time their attack with the coming of a large storm. Since damaging the Tau enviro-engines, the area had been all but consumed by the driving sand squalls and rad-storms." I also did just notice that the Imperium spotted Farsight's ships (I originally thought these were just the regular aircraft): "Doubtlessly, the Imperial forces on the ground were getting pounded by Tau atmospheric bombers. Waves of fighters were scrambled, sent out in thick swarms from the orbiting battleships. Regardless of xenos perfidy, the attack must succeed" so how'd he get away? Manta's are not orbital bombers, Orca's are not orbital bombers, so my only conclusion is that the Shi'oni's are orbital bombers as well as transports, so he gave himself away and the Imperium sent out fleets of fighters to destroy them. Thinking about it a bit more, I can actually forgive it for having Shadowsun order them to make the storm, because she didn't have any way of knowing that the enviro-engines were taken offline, however then it works out just fine anyway. I have not been inside of a hurricane (though I've read all about it), and I know it touches the ground, that's why I was asking, so we're saying what happens is the storm exists directly outside the shield and not inside of it in any way right? Yes the Oni ships would only be able to make one trip, but think about how many Fire Caste Farsight would have lost, as well as how small the remaining amount of "important" Tau there would be (grimdark), so I think he definitely could call an extraction, after all, saving a few Tau is better than saving none. -- Triacom (talk) 06:45, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
I thought the air-scrubbers are the enviro-engines in the same way people often use synonyms to avoid saying the same word over and over again, like what happens on soccer narrations, calling the goalkeeper "guardian" and even "archer" (wtf?). Thus they could be cleaning the air by virtue of manipulating the atmosphere, maybe as a Maxwell's Demon machine. The loss of that network node meant the loss of clean air over that sector, but the fortress would still be within manipulation range, and it is shown it has clean air over it, so that'd mean there's another engine inside the shield. And on p.75 and 80 she orders environmental tricks, the engineers could have told her it was no longer under their control, but they didn't. And Stark is unaware the storm is Tau-made, and he even thinks it'll rob the Tau from their ranged advantage, seemingly unaware of Blacksun and Multispectrums. Then again, he took a long time to realize the comm's static wasn't a coincidence. About the bombers, I understood that section as Tau atmospheric bombers harrassing the imperials, so imperial HQ sent fighters from their orbiting ships, as even though it was a risk to fly in the storm (the xenos perfidy) the attack had to succeed. Either that or it was Oni stealth transport bombers, with talismans for good measure xD. No author, I sure don't want to read about dogfights, just mention it. This is perhaps the most downplayed thing in the book, because on the IG's retreat they're being pounded by bombers. About the D-strenght weapon signatures, I assumed they were from the nukes and Stormsurges from the next page instead of being from Tigershark-class Heavy Railguns. About the storm, I imagined it as the sandstorm scene from Mad Max: a sandy maesltrom with a well defined border, albeit with ruined buildings inside. And I don't know about the evacuation, I kinda like holdout missions, which isn't the same thing as winning a siege. I mean, abandoning all those Tau, that'd be so Imperium. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 09:41, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
I'm not so sure that the air-scrubbers and enviro-engines are the same things: "Although Colonel Starkzahn’s initial attack, along with forces of the Adeptus Mechanicus, had done considerable damage to the outer defences and some of the air-scrubbing machineries, they had not destroyed the shield generators..." That quote makes it sound to me like the air-scrubbers are still online, whereas the enviro-engines aren't. I'm still sticking to the book saying they're offline, so even if the fortress is within manipulation range, the devices they need are turned off, it would be like hacking a computer with your mind in the middle of a desert. I'd also think that if they're separate machines, then the fact that there's clean air above the fortress just means there's functioning air-scrubbers inside of it. Another thing I'd like to point out with that Shadowsun BS is they say that all the enviro-engines are offline, two paragraphs later Shadowsun gives orders for a rising storm, then two paragraphs later the storm's gathering in strength, so the book isn't even capable of keeping its own story straight for ONE fucking page, so who knows what's actually going on. Somehow I bet you could even ask the writer and they'd admit to not knowing how that happened. I honestly don't blame Stark for thinking the storm was natural, because as I pointed out in my quote, it actually was natural. When the enviro-engines went offline the storm immediately started forming like that, so I guess the Tau just lucked Dues Ex Machina'd out? Also he waited for it (though I'm not sure what that means since it was always there) partially because he thought it would hinder their range, and mostly because he thought it would take away their air-support. Here's the thing about the bombers, how many atmospheric craft did Farsight have? He had 12 Manta's, none of which entered the atmosphere, and 24 Orca's, none of which entered the atmosphere (so I don't know why he brought them considering they're otherwise useless) unless they both came down inside the Shi'oni's (I have no idea how large those are), and neither Manta's nor Orca's are bombers. That's it, those are the only three classes of craft capable of entering the atmosphere, and the Shi'oni are the only craft specifically mentioned to enter, so I'm with you in that the Imperium sent their fighters out to destroy them... So what happened? I agree that it should be one of the most important parts of the book, but I guess it's just another middle finger to good writing. Also if the flashes of titan class weaponry were from the Stormsurge suits, then why did the officers assume it was atmospheric bombers immediately? They know what the Stormsurge suits are capable of, and the way the suits are armed means they wouldn't show any titan class weaponry signatures (even Destroyer missiles are Strength D only because of where they hit, not because of their payload). Also what nukes did the Tau have on the ground? Any they had would need to come from the bombers. I guess too I see a holdout in this case as having no real reward if they actually do holdout, and I'm also a fan of those missions, some of my favourite mission scenarios (any of the last couple from the Anphelion Project and even a lot of scenarios in WFB) are some of the most fun I've had, both in a narrative sense and on the tabletop (though I'd also cry foul if Lok was somehow able to defeat the Tyranids in the end), however here there's no real way to win, especially since at any time the Imperium could just grow bored and drop a Cyclonic Torpedo. You'd also figure there'd be at least one Inquisitor monitoring the campaign too, but considering everything else I'm not surprised they were forgotten. -- Triacom (talk) 11:17, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
I'm saying they're the same thing because earlier they dismantled an enviro-engine, but later it says they had damaged some of the air-scrubbing machineries, and that's the first (and only) time they mention such a thing, and they're clearly talking about the events depicted in 'One Final Push'. Shadowsun's orders a just a page after the mention of the engines being offline could only be explained by also having some in the fortress, which would allow limited weather control. The other explanation is shitty writing obviously, but that's the trivial solution and isn't food for thought. Clear skies naturally receded after the destruction of the engines and bad weather creeped in as seen in 'From Out The Rising Storm', but The Tau fuel it a page later and Stark thought in 'Final Preparations' that such a huge storm was great opportunity. And Farsight brought 17 Air Protection squadrons, numbering I don't know how many craft because I don't know how many a squadron is, and "they had conserved much of their airpower". And Orcas aren't useless (except in the tabletop, lol) - they're pretty much the reason everyone was perfectly positioned. "Unable to mantain orbit, the Tau fleet was forced to flee", wouldn't this mean the Interstellar craft fled but the Orbital wing and Air Protection squadrons landed on the planet? (p.53). If the energy signatures weren't the stuff on the next page, then the only thing I can think of and assume it's flyers is Heavy Railguns. And the "nukes" were Earth caste reactors overloaded on purpose. A holdout would have been resisting the siege until the fleet arrived and extracted them precisely on a fighting retreat just like the one they had forced on SM a book ago. So, technically it wouldn't be winning neither a siege nor the space battle that would ensue, but a flight - everyone fitting their stereotypes. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 19:54, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
I guess that's fair, though you'd think they'd try to make that clearer. I guess we should assume they lucked out with the storm being in their favour while the engines were offline and then pulled more engines out of storage that they had "just in case". Yes Farsight brought a lot of aircraft, and none of it was used in the final fight, they used Atmospheric Bombers, and while Barracudas, Mantas, Orcas and Tiger Sharks are atmospheric craft, they certainly aren't bombers. I'd also figure that the craft that was forced to flee would be the all of the Interstellar Craft he had brought along, none of which are this new "stealth" craft, so the Imperials would have engaged them. Why would the Guard go near yet more reactors after they knew what the Tau were capable of doing with them? Also why would the reactors be there in the first place? I highly doubt they placed them there and then left them, and even if they did why would some exploding on the ground cause the Navy to assume there was Atmospheric Bombers when they didn't think it was the case earlier? I think there's quite a difference between something being dropped, then exploding rather than a detonation, or at the least the explosions look different enough to their scanners that they'd notice it wasn't just reactors. Also how exactly would the main Tau fleet get past the Imperial Navy to extract them? -- Triacom (talk) 20:51, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
Well, I assumed they build the first engines in the middle and then expanded a ring of them - the purpose was to clean the whole planet and they hadn't done it already because their control was still limited to the ring zone, which got wrecked back to step one. Aren't 6 Sunsharks bomber squadrons the atmospheric bombers they talk about? And Tigersharks are fighter-bombers - that does count. I thought the Paradox squadron's D-bombs were obsolete, tho. I don't know anything about those reactors in the same way I don't know what would the Tau build in order to turn a captured world into a sept world. Their use looked like those Planestrike stratagems the same way the missile barrage on the same page and the solar flare on Farsight's arrival. If scanners should have picked something, it should have been that - they ended up making mushroom clouds (that's why I called them nukes), albeit you don't need to be too close to one to be affected, just remember Castle Bravo. As for the Kor'vatta, they wouldn't defeat the human fleet. They could however tie them up long enough to evacuate several tau from the surface and "flee" afterwards (I thought the Imperial ships were faster, so I don't know how they escaped to begin with), suffering 40k's trademark Heavy Casualties. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 22:35, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
But it never says that's what they did, so all we've got are assumptions. The Sun Sharks were grounded by the storm and the Tiger Sharks aren't bombers, while they're compared to Navy Bombers a fair bit, that has more to do with size, build, weight, speed and maneuverability as they lack any bombing ability of any kind. I'd say that the only way the Imperials know what's happening on the surface is if their scanners definitely picked something up, but then that just raises the question again of how Farsight left. I also know you don't need to be near a nuke to be affected, however their scanners should have told them where the reactors are (and thus they'd either shell them, lance strike them, or avoid them), as while they aren't too good at telling you about living things, they are pretty great for getting reports on the battleground itself. Fair point on the fleet too, I'm also not sure how the Tau get away exactly since with their new FTL they should be significantly slower than the Imperial ships. -- Triacom (talk) 23:50, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
Standard procedure for cleaning pollutants is to divide the zone in sections and expand from the beginning. And if they're grounded by the storm then I don't know why the Fleet thinks those flashes come from bombers at all - if it were orbital or suborbital Tau bombers then they wouldn't be under the cloud cover and the Fleet would have visual confirmation, negating all especulation. Tiger Sharks technically are heavy fighters (and of the missileer kind like the F-14 Tomcat), but it's not like all fighter craft lack AtG capabilities (hillariously the Tomcat's AtG module is called "LANTIRN 40K"). Would seeker missiles capable of being used as air to ground weapons make for a fighter-bomber craft? And "although the term 'fighter' specifies aircraft designed to shoot down other aircraft, such designs are often also useful as multirole fighter-bombers" (source). And the AX-10's descriptions says they turned the Tigershark into a "formidable ground attack craft" (but being FW maybe those aren't present here, so I'll leave it merely as an example of armaments changing an aircraft's designations instead of being a design-exclusive decision). And when Farsight left, the human fleet had already left (presumably that's why he didn't leave sooner), not to mention stealth craft probably have a lesser signature than an unstealthy soon-to-explode reactor. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 01:01, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
How do we know for sure that this last base was also the first Tau base? They could've set up anywhere else but have this just be the last place the Imperials attacked. I think them being above the storm is exactly why I think the navy both notices and engages them, because most of the navy's ships are not ones made to enter the atmosphere (though they can certainly shoot into it), and scanners would easily detect falling bombs, so how'd the Tau get away? I also think the stealth craft would have a different signature to the reactors, which is another reason I think the navy noticed. Also space is pretty vast, and 40k doesn't have star-trek zoom in screens, the only way they'd get accurate visual proof of something is to send out fighters and bombers to engage them, which is what they did, so what happened? For the Tiger Sharks, I never said they lacked air-to-ground capabilities, I just pointed out they don't have bombs, and the Imperium noticed the Guard were being attacked by bombers (specifically bombs, not missiles), and if it really was just more Seeker missiles, why would they think it was atmospheric craft when they didn't think that was the case when the missiles blotted out the sun? -- Triacom (talk) 06:26, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
I thought the largest, shielded installation would have been the first to be built, especially since the ruins of Agrellan Prime could have contained still functioning "air reclamators", so it would have been a nice place to start. But who knows. I proposed explanations for the flashes, but I don't know why the imperials think they come from bombers (unless AX-10's heavy railguns). And getting visual proof of planetbound stuff isn't that difficult - that's what IRL spy satellites do, and the Fleet has scanners. Never said they ought to look for stuff on space because whatever bombers they are, they came from the planet. And I don't think Oni craft are bombers, otherwise they would have bombed Stark instead of having Crisis suits deepstrike upon them. And aren't Thunderbolts capable of deploying to the atmosphere from orbiting ships? I too want to know where these Titan signatures came from and what happened with those bombers (or rather how nothing happened to those bombers). -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 07:31, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
Actually they never said anything about that base in particular being the largest shielded one, which is good because if it was why didn't the Space Marines go for it first? What they do say however is that the developing city is largest in current development (which also makes me question why they didn't go for it first, and makes me question why they left the base standing when they took down the shields on every other base), however that helped me realize another issue, where exactly is everything in relation to each other in The Soldiers of the Machine God? (P.44). So the Tau's big base is in the Shadow of Agrellan Prime, Space Marine drop pods land, then continued to assault the rest and Shadowsun's forced to call in more and more of her reserves to keep them from getting any further. So then the Skitarii arrive, while the Tau are still fighting the Space Marines the Tau have more than enough resources to take on both the Skitarii and Guard somehow, the Guard get into optimal siege position and the Skitarii pour into the fortifications, and despite breaking through, and being beside the Guardsmen, this has no impact on the Guard's fight against the Tau defenders? How? Anyway, so the Guard eventually break through to the third and final level of defence, which the Admech and Space Marines had already broken through... So who's fighting them now? Anyway they get through that and this is all well and good, and then suddenly, the base MOVES SEVERAL HUNDRED FEET AWAY in One Final Push... So that they could have the desert battle, and now the base is inside Agrellan Prime even though it wasn't before! I've checked, all previous mentions of it place it outside Agrellan Prime, so how/why exactly did this happen? I know they described her view to the walls as a Vista of a future Tau city, but they also say that the walls guard the "complex" which includes her base, so how exactly does "complex" translate to "several hundred feet of desert" and how does several hab and training domes turn into a sprawling desert (and if she's inside a hive city, how does she see out there)? when they're already right near the hive city? Also if the next page isn't a flashback, then that means a fourth wall of defence pops up literally out of nowhere when they're inside the dome city (because if there's one thing the Tau are known for, it's not giving a shit about civilian casualties right?), though I have no idea where it is in relation to anything else. If there was seriously this much room past the defences and the city, why didn't the Guard, Space Marines and AdMech simply deploy past all of these defences and outright ignore them in favour of the base like they did everywhere else? Come to think of it this whole idea of "three spearheads" makes no sense whatsoever since they could've deployed around the base upon arriving at the planet (aka what should have happened). Those defences they fought aren't even shielded to artillery or orbital bombardment. Now for whatever's attacking the Guard at the end, as I said, whatever visual proof they'd need would easily be confirmed by the fighters/bombers they launched, and since there's thousands upon thousands of them, they shouldn't have had any problems destroying whatever bombers there were. I also thought keeping the Oni craft a secret from the Imperium would be pretty important and maybe that's why they didn't bomb them, though this negates that. You did say several times though that using bombs or artillery when your allies were close wasn't a good idea, and that's what happened here, they dropped the battlesuits because the Guard/Space Marines were right on top of the Tau, to drop bombs then would be to potentially suffer massive losses, and since Farsight's trying to make a good impression I'd say that would be a really bad idea, on top of making the Guard's flyers target the Oni ships (and therefore he'd lose his only non-Empire escape route). Also when I said that most of the ships they had not being made to enter the atmosphere I was referring to the Starhawk's and Fury Interceptors, because the book says: "Waves of fighters were scrambled, sent out in thick swarms from the orbiting battleships." I'd think if they could be safely engaged so high above the planet that there's no danger to their regular fighter craft, then that meant whatever was doing the bombing had to be orbital (and I was using that to rule out the Sun Sharks in addition to the storm). Now why the Imperium didn't use Thunderbolts to do the same to the Tau defences should be obvious, the Tau have to win. It's for the same reason that they mostly forget about their scanners (naturally it would also prevent Kauyon from happening, but that's a given since that book relied on the Imperium being stupid). Also if this seems a little overpowered, as if the Imperium has a counter to pretty much everything, that's only because they've been fighting a war for 10,000 years, and despite /tg/'s (and that author's) usual opinion of them the Imperium has gotten very good at war. -- Triacom (talk) 09:57, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
I don't know if you forgot to delete it, but you're saying it yourself: it was the largest base currently in developement. The SM should have deepstriked by all the means they have, using the IG's attack as a distraction to destroy the shield generators, disengage and then have it bombed. The end. But such an attack could have been very costly to the SM, and it couldn't be done from the beginning because they needed the Guard to arrive to the site to begin with. If not by their counterattacks on the cloaked gun emplacements, the Guard would have suffered heavy(er) losses even before the attack began. And were the other bases shielded (were there any other bases to begin with?)? I thought the most protection other bases had were cloaked gun emplacements, but if you find other things under shields by all means point them out pls. And judging by the advances of the different imperial forces, they Tau only had the resources to stall the Guard, but luckily for Tau the Skitarii were only playing a speedrun and went on to secure a enviro-engine so their Requisitioner could steal it, in the process exposing the IG's right flank. Afterwards they INFORMATION REDACTED BY THE COMMISSARIAT which totally explains their sudden ambush against the Stormsurges and their absence from everything else: Yes, the author completely forgot about them. When the Guard breaks through the third line Farsight arrives and Stark calls for a regroup with the bombardment and the subsequent battle lasts around FOUR chapters xD, from 'Battle of Blackfossil Ridge' to 'From Out the Rising Storm'. Then the spearheads get together and Stark waits for the storm to grow even more, meanwhile (?) SM scouts battled Pathfinders for weeks (?!) and learned Farsight's "location". How come there is so many distance between the defense lines and the actual fortress? I understand they left some empty space for expansion, but wasn't Stark calling it "the final assault" just before Farsight arrived? Unless Stark is badly prone to counting his chickens before they hatch. As for "if the next page isn't a flashback", the "larger installations" and the banks of gun drones weren't a fourth line of defense but the city in construction. But the base is supposed to be on the shadow of Agrellan Prime, I'd say adyacent to it, and I don't know why they didn't just skip the defenses and deploy in the desert between them and the base (unless they were fearing an attack on both sides, kinda unlikely). I too think the bomber problem would have been solved by the "fighters" and don't know why it didn't. And yes, Oni ships weren't there, that's why they (who?) didn't bomb them (who?). And I said that shooting BLIND barrages near allied forces was the bad idea, but when Farsight arrived he had visual, as the enviro-engines had just been taken offline (and Tau are always perfectly timing their attacks anyway, even perfectly timed with the flare missile). And if it was an orbital bomber then why didn't they said "Look, it's X!" instead of suspecting stuff (can Mantas bomb things?). And the Imperium didn't bomb the actual base because it had lots of AA and they don't have SM plot armour to do "daring runs" on the AA instalations and get shit done, which is one of my main complaints from the book. IG can't seem do get anything done by itself. They suffer critical existence failure when AA is present, unlike the SM. They can't fight their way out of an ambush like the Scars, or set one themselves like the Ravens (unless they are Catachans on the old book). They couldn't even win an attrition war...unlike freaking Tau! What CAN they do, besides die standing (but ultimately dying)?. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 21:33, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
There's a big difference between base and city, I was saying the the city was the largest in development, whereas the base was not. You are right in that they seem to be the only base there though, the description of the Tau only having one base left made me think there were others, but there doesn't appear to be. So why don't the guard deploy outside the base when they made planetfall? "How come there is so many distance between the defense lines and the actual fortress?" That was my question, I can't figure out the distances between anything, in The Soldiers of the Machine God the base seems to be behind the defence lines, then that turns into a massive desert for no reason, a desert that would have had ample deployment room for everything the Guard wanted. Wouldn't Oni ships have to be there to quickly deploy all of Farsights warhost? I'd also think that since they haven't encountered Oni ships before and they're presumably still trying to stealth that their readings would be a little weird, though the description does say "doubtlessly" so they are absolutely sure that bombers are to blame. Also no, Manta's cannot bomb things. Actually the bombers the Imperium have are known for their exceptional durability, and can finish bombing runs while looking like a piece of Swiss cheese, I doubt they'd get taken down especially after the Space Marines took out almost all of the ground turrets in other areas. I do agree that in this book the Guard are pathetic, whereas Cadians are supposed to have held the Eye of Terror at bay (for the most part) for 10,000 years! Sometimes they had SM help, and sometimes they didn't, and before it was retconned away the Cadians actually managed to hold out against the 13th Black Crusade! There's no reason they should be this useless. -- Triacom (talk) 22:33, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
No, behind the defense lines is the Tau complex, but that encompasses both the fortress and the construction sites, which are supposedly the size of a "sprawling desert" and should therefore allow for disembarking there, if not right over the fortress. And yes, Oni ships were there to deploy Farsight (I think I'm not understanding the problem there). About those mysterious bombers: Titan readings + "doubtlessly bombers" = ??? =! Oni ships. Whatever it was, should have been killed, except that no, says the author. "Mantain consistency and narrate stuff", says we. And on Dalyth the same durable bombers are destroyed by Tau aircraft, but it does make sense - makes you remember B52s vs german craft. Durable, but not invincible. And marines destroyed gun emplacements to secure a landing site - sounds something more easily done on the outskirts of a fortress than right on top on one. Retconned away? Don't they currently hold 30% of the ground and won the space battle? I thought Cadians were exemplars among guardsmen, and sure they didn't run away in this book, but also couldn't get shit done. Kriegers got shit done with bayonets. And a billion men, but with manly bayonets, bucketloads of artillery (take a note Stark) and some armour support. As I write this I realize the injustice of the task force not having Kasrkin, second only to astartes. 'Warzone:Waste of potential' here. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 23:37, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
So they built the base, then skipped over a massive amount of desert, then started building the city after building several defence walls? Hey wait a second, why did they even build several defence walls? What were they planning on fighting? There's no massive wildlife to worry about, the Tau hate, and I mean HATE static defences like these permanent walls and now we've both pointed out there was no reason why the Guard and Space Marines had to fight the walls in the first place. So here's what I was saying about the ships and Farsight, the reason I think the ships can use bombs but didn't bomb the Guard when Farsight first deployed is A) he wanted to make a good impression and didn't want to take any chances whatsoever with friendly fire and B) even if he wasn't worried about friendly fire, drawing the attention of the Guard's air support to the only ships he has that are capable of getting him in and out of the atmosphere without the Imperium shooting them would be a very bad idea (yes the Imperium left later but he had no way of knowing when that would be or even if they'd leave). See I still say that the bombs falling out from the ships would give the Navy some indication that it was bombers, rather than flashes of light + Titan class weapons = Bombers, though I'll admit it certainly does look like that, however the Navy know what all signatures of Railcannons look like, even if it was the heavy ones found on Manta's I don't think they'd assume it was bombers like they did here. When the Space Marines destroyed the AA guns I read that as them destroying all of the AA guns, since it said that Shadowsun used them all at the end when they were trying to deploy and the Space Marines blew those ones up, so for them to have more it would have to be retconned away. The fight on Dalyth was a bit different though in that there were far more guns and aircraft they had to deal with and they all had their sensors linked together as if it was some sort of tower defence game (once again, orbital strikes would've solved that problem and nothing was stopping the Imperium from doing that), what do they have to be worried about here? There's gun emplacements, and no aircraft because they're all grounded thanks to the storm. Actually the Cadian's DID start to run away after Farsight first arrived, and yes, they're supposed to be among the best trained soldiers in the galaxy, their training starts at a ridiculously young age, because it has to, one officer is quoted as saying "Any Cadian who can't field-strip his lasgun by age 10 was born on the wrong planet." They're serious about that too, in another quote an officer is mad that an eleven year old kid doesn't know how to strip his gun and says that he should've been taught before then. Yeah, I can definitely agree that they should've had Kasrkin (which are also Cadian's) and 'Warzone:Waste of potential' is definitely a good war to describe it, though I'd have gone with 'Warzone:Waste of Intelligence' since this book accomplished NOTHING aside from getting the Enclaves eaten by Tyranids. Aside from that everyone's back where they started before all of this bullshit, because why would we ever change the status quo? Also before you mention Aun'Va's death, the Ethereals could simply elect a successor and say Aun'Va stepped down (since even Aun'Va replaced somebody else), they don't ever have to admit it. -- Triacom (talk) 07:54, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
It all comes to the point where you mention the old fluff shows them disregarding any kind of static defense and I say Gunrigs, Shieldwalls, Droneports, Drone Sentry turrets, Area Denial Nodes and those AA emplacements draw a somewhat different picture. Maybe a change of doctrine if you will, and certainly of a change than merely changing an Ethereal supreme. Why were the walls outside the construction site, especially when they didn't expect an imperial reprisal in years? Why did they have half a crusade as garrison to begin with? That was no place for either Aun'Va nor Shadowsun to be, they should have been at the front (but otherwise we wouldn't care about some nameless garisson Tau). I'm not saying Oni ships lack any sort of offensive power, but would you expose them in bombardment attacks and not hide them somewhere (inside the shield?) knowing there is an enemy fleet up there? To me they are a cloaked, bigger version of a Manta (kinda like the helicarrier, remembering it can also become invisible), and if they didn't risk those I doubt they would risk Onis, their only remote way of escape. And marines didn't destroy all the AA emplacements on the planet, only those who threatened the landing zones - if they landed on the sprawling desert/construction zone they would have been pounded by AA without them being able to silence them without commiting in full. Not like marines can't do it, but since it involves a frontal attack (but also a steel rehn) the Ravens would be imparcial about it, and because it doesn't involve bikes...well no, the Khan would still go, because he already made a place for Shadowsun on his wall. So "I'd be hard" is what I say about deploying between the walls and the fortress. About the aircraft, imperial bombers venturing inside the shield would face tau fighters because there's not storm there. I thought those bombers could fly on space, but the only target not inside the shield would be their own forces, so deploying them makes no sense. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 16:42, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
The AA emplacements and Area Denial Nodes are the only ones that you mentioned that are static defences, everything else is mobile, and even then, the AA might be mobile by being lifted/re-positioned and the Area Denial Nodes are only deployed as an absolute last resort when moving around becomes impossible (funnily enough too this is one of the few times the Tau are mentioned as having strictly AA turrets when they usually use Drone Turrets and planes as AA). I don't get why they had such a massive garrison either, the whole point of attacking Agrellan instead of Prefectia was to hit the Tau when they were overstretched and had left some of the conquered worlds with a smaller garrison. Your points about risking the Oni are the same points I made earlier on why having them bomb the enemy was stupid. Also what's the difference between getting shot at the enemy in their initial landing site vs getting shot at the enemy in the construction desert? Either way they're getting shot and I haven't seen any mention that the AA there would be any heavier. I fail to see why the Marines can't land, plant Melta charges, and then leave, like they did on all the other AA emplacements, why would this turn out differently? The bombers can fly in space, which is why they'd be good for flying inside a storm that regular planes can't go through and then into the non-stormy base, also there's not a lot of room inside the base, and none of the Tau aircraft was up and running (only their spacecraft) so they could finish bombing runs (even if it was to blow up those other planes) and leave before those planes even took off. -- Triacom (talk) 21:30, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
A) Weren't Gunrigs the source of most of the railgun fire from the defense lines? That kinda counts as a static defense, even thought it can move and reconfigurate itself. And can Drone turrets engage air targets? B) Well that's why I don't think Oni ships were the ones bombarding the guard on the last part, especially when the offending craft are called "atmosferic bombers" instead of "???" (it's stealth transport). C) Disembarking on the outskirts means decreased risk of attacky by land or air forces, so you only hav to mention about heavy AA emplacements. By downplaying most of the previous menaces, a SM force could focus on destroying the gun emplacements over anything else. And there is just enough room over the fortress' sky. - an aproaching bomber would be detected and dealt with And where does it say Tau orbital craft were being used at the moment of the holdout? -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 07:21, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
A) Yeah most of the fire came from those, though I'm not too sure what's going on there because the wall is a very obvious WALL, as in not a wall that can float around, so I don't understand if they floated some Gunrigs over, or if they had immobile versions attached to those walls since Gunrigs aren't supposed to be locked in place (which is why they're not a static defence). Also Drone Turrets cannot gain Skyfire, but that doesn't stop author's from writing them in as downing aircraft anyway (they can still shoot at them). B) Well then what bombers could they use? I've come up with them using the Oni's just out of process of elimination. Also transports can fulfill multiple roles, they don't just have to transport (though in some cases like the Orca or the Arvus Lighter that is pretty much all they can do).

C) So why couldn't the Space Marines destroy the AA batteries that were near the desert (which was near the base) and then have everyone deploy there? There'd have to be less AA since before they wiped out all of the AA covering three separate drop points. Also decreased risk of attack? The Guard know how mobile the Tau are, there's no chance that deploying far away from the base and then inching closer to it would have them all get attacked less, especially when the mission was to annihilate the Tau, which would require them to fight all of them anyway. Also if they wiped out the AA (like they should've) then the approaching bombers wouldn't have anything to worry about, and while it doesn't outright say the Tau were using orbital craft, all of their regular aircraft was grounded, so the only craft left is the orbital craft. -- Triacom (talk) 09:53, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

A) Who says they can't move? Why can't they be Tidewall Defense Networks? Their description calls them "energized redoubts and bunkers", structures which sound static but only because we're used to them being static. About the cloaked gun emplacements, I thought at first they were orbital cannons but then some were attacking atmospheric craft, which either means they also had separate AA emplacements or that their orbital defense weapons are different to the norm and can be recalibrated to hit atmospheric targets, which is supposedly difficult. It is some of this kind of guns the ones I thought they had under the shield. B) That's some sort of Ship-of-the-gaps explanation, but it's understandable given how we are only given gaps to work with: none of this would happen without that single "doubtlessly bombers" sentence, but it's there. I doubt Onis are defenseless, but wouldn't it be like sending an aircraft carrier to the front line (I thought it carried the Orcas, akin to this)? I don't agree Farsight would risk such a resource, but I'm not him so who knows. C) Because Railguns in their face from both sides soon after disembarking, which is a lenghty process, so by the time the railguns arrive the artillery may not have yet disembarked, and the defense lines would become an enclosure - there'd be nowhere to retreat to, if such a thing was needed. And for the first part they did have shoals of flyers. And it does say they used orbital craft when the imperials were landing, as for the "BUT REINFORCEMENTS ARRIVED" plot special rule. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 19:18, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
A) Just read the descriptions: "At the defensive walls guarding the sprawling Tau complex, Commander Shadowsun had planned to make the gue’la pay dearly, before retiring behind the defences." If they really were Tidewalls or capable of moving she could just take the defences with her, so the reason they can't be Tidewall Defence Networks is because they're actual walls, also we were both wrong on them having any Tidewall elements at all on those walls, they just have gun emplacements, not gunrigs. You know what's the best proof of them being regular walls though? When they actually get past that wall and get to an actual Tidewall, the book calls it a Tidewall: "Where once had been plain desert, there now stood Tidewall barricades and gun turrets." For the turrets, you'd figure if those were the kind of things they'd have under the shield then the Space Marines would have already blown them up, after all, they didn't originally know that the storm was coming so what was their plan? Leave the Tau with AA emplacements and go into the final fight without any air support of any kind while your troops get pounded by the air caste? B) I also thought it would carry Orcas, but I guess we'll have to leave it at that. C) Railguns from both sides? Sorry, what? Why wouldn't the wall be obliterated by orbital strikes before they arrived there (like it should have been anyway)? Even if they couldn't obliterate it, why would they need to set up that close to it? Also I think the Navy's fighter/bombers (let alone the Space Marines) can provide adequate defence against any Tau defence and buy the Guard enough time to fully set up. Also having nowhere to retreat to is a pretty great real-life tactic, it makes your soldiers fight so much harder simply because there's no other option, and I don't see why the Imperium wouldn't be in favour of that. Did the Guard even get more reinforcements ever from their orbital craft after the initial deployment? Given how many Guardsmen are on the ground vs the amount of ships they have, the numbers seem a little low (especially with that line about how they could take over Agrellan "five times over"). -- Triacom (talk) 20:50, 27 January 2016 (UTC)
A) That meant her forces were going to attack the enemy and avoid the reprisal by going behind the walls. On WD:Kauyon the shieldwalls have ridiculous speed, fast enough to counter bikes. Here they feel more as re-deployable structures, which is a more accurate representation. You said it yourself, they don't like static defenses, so why would their defense lines be static? Interpreting the quote "Where once had been plain desert, there now stood Tidewall barricades" this way would fix things like the Tau suddenly adopting static walls, the identity of those railgun turrets would be revealed as Gunrigs and the "sprawling desert" would be reducted to a city-sized arid construction zone instead of "The Tau walled off a desert chunk for no reason". If the walls weren't mobile this scenario would be completely irredeemable. And about Stark's strategy, which was the first casualty, it shows a change of plans: first he leaves his artillery behind relying on air support instead, but those elements were busy guarding the disembark and he still goes forward. Series of ambushes pin the infantry elements so the advance effort falls upon the armoured regiments. They all arrive to the defense lines, which moments ago were desert, and they encounter troops coming out of them. Shadowsun wanted it to be a hit&run attack but SM drop pods cut the retreat, while AdMech joins the Guard. They breach the defenses (AdMech steals the enviro-engine, retreats and the storm begins) and, seeing a mere construction zone before him, Stark declares his now consolidated infantry + armour +flyers will make the final push, but Farsight arrives and inflicts Heavy Losses™. Thus, Stark regroups under the cover of orbital bombardment and the tanks arrive. Farsight kills those and rallies the local Tau in a counterattack, but the Skitarii appears "Outta nowhere!™" and Tau retreat. Now that the artillery has arrived and air support is unavailable, Stark waits for the storm to truly get serious, unaware the Tau control the weather because he attacked only from one side. On the way to the shielded fortress the SM encounters Farsight's massed battlesuits. Knowing they can employ their own version of steel rehn they decide to show them how it's done before they get the jump on the siege force, while Farsight shows them he can fight like a Shadowsun too. The IG advances through the (Tau) ruins inside the storm but there are many ambushers, and the few that make it get a facefull of plasma on the other side, because they were pretty much walking blind due to the reduced visibility. After the whole ordeal, a lone guardsman says "why didn't we just bombed it in the first place? And where did those damn cogboys go?". He is then summarily executed. C) Everything should be obliterated by orbital bombardment to begin with, so they actually should touch down on an artificial moonscape just outside the fortress, only to be ambushed by concealed AA guns, only to be destroyed by SM drop pods. The IG would then plod forwards and would be ambushed by battlesuits, which would be countered by Scar bikes (which are seldom mentioned in the book, as if the Scars suddenly lost all their bikes), which should in turn be countered by Stormsurges, which are not countered by Knights but instead by rocks it seems. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 02:29, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
A) Thanks for helping me prove that the "defensive" walls (P.44) are not Tidewalls, and I'll go through why: 1) Because if they were mobile the Tau wouldn't have to hop out, attack for a while, then hop back, as their speed is just another example of story and gameplay segregation. It would have been more efficient, not to mention faster and safer, for them to have just taken the walls with them, IF they weren't static defences. 2) Because they're not called Tidewalls. When the Tidewalls are used the book appropriately calls them that, whereas these walls are strictly "defensive". 3) Even if we ignore their name, Tidewalls are NOT meant to be only defensive, they're mobile offensive firing platforms (and naturally all firing platforms provide at least some defence to their gunmen). 4) One of big things about the Tidewalls is their ability to reflect enemy attacks, now a lot of things shoot at these "defensive" walls, and not a single shot is reflected. Not a single one. Now why did the Tau build static walls (which they hate) facing a desert with no possible enemies in it? Because the author's a fucking moron. Also that quote of the Tidewalls appearing from the desert is after the Guard, Mechanicus and Space Marines take care of the "defensive" walls. Also if Stark was relying on air support, why did the air support only participate in the fight in the desert after all the walls? That's also the same fight in which the Guards artillery arrives (and then falls asleep). Aside from that though I think that's a good enough summary to add to the main page. C) Considering how long the bombardment went on for I have no idea why so much of the Tau's buildings remained intact, what happened there exactly? Personally too I'd use the Guard landing as bait for any of the shielded AA guns, send the Marines in to destroy them, then for the shielded fortresses, teleport terminators inside, they'd wreck everything that close, shield goes down, base gets nuked, and everyone leaves. Yes the Guard don't do much in this scenario, but that's because they specialize in scenarios where the opponent doesn't have bullshit "everything proof" shields that cannot be taken down by either orbital bombardment or artillery (even Void Shields give out after enough artillery fire). -- Triacom (talk) 05:07, 28 January 2016 (UTC)
A) 1 & 3) Walls may be mobile, but they have a finite lenght which makes them vulnerable to overextending. That's why they don't eschew Devilfished and ride those to battle, not to mention they're not as mobile as depicted - if they floated the defense line towards them they'd be squandering the railgun's range. You're talking as if that one time they outmaneuvered freaking bikes wasn't dumb. 4) Not to mention in Kauyon they never reflect any attack. 2) That's just a naming issue. They could have said "bunkers" or "fort" and it would still be a mobile structure, as the Tidewall Defense Network's fluff refers it as such. That and the fact that the term "defense line" is used more frequently than "walls" and other elements like Railgun turrets (aka Gunrigs) are mentioned leds me to believe the book is referring to these Defense Networks. Not to mention it's said they appeared from nowhere, just like that time Sternshield airlifted them in Kauyon. There's a part that says "Each rampart structure was hit by melta beams that forced breaches in its outer walls" and it was a Tidewall. 4B) WAS. After the failed attack the storm grew and blocked air support (for humans). Luckily the artillery had just arrived and they can be seen firing in 'The Grand Assault', even making a preliminary barrage to clear the ground for the marine forces (they should have kept pounding them with artillery, but 'bolter & blade' it seems). C) Which buildings? About the base not being pounded until the depletion of its shields, I'd place my orbital defenses under the shield, even if I have to lower a section in order to fire. Not saying that's what the Tau did, tho, but wouldn't that force enemies to assault me instead of becoming a big bullseye for them? Which bring us to how a steel rehn plus teleports would have had a crippling effect on the defenders the same way daemons randomly appear all over a place - can't make a gunline against them. Unless teleport jammers, then all would fall upon the drop pods suddenly becoming the distraction themselves in order to allow the Guard to plod forwards. If all that happened combined then it would end up preventing orbital bombardment because I'd nuke my own task force, but it'd still mean victory anyway. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 08:43, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
A) 1) Sorry, what? They're sectioned off, if they want to make them longer they bring in a new section, and if these really were the mobile walls then they've get literally four rows of walls, all fully manned. How could they possibly overextend that? Also I know them outmanuevering bikes was dumb, however establishing something and then not using it here while claiming it's the exact same thing is even dumber. I also wasn't just talking about them getting closer, I was talking about them moving in general, as the Guard advanced very slowly and if they were capable of any kind of movement they'd have just backed away so that the Guard couldn't get to them. 4) My mistake, I could have sworn they did but I'll take your word on that. 2) So why is a "naming issue" so consistent? Every time it talks about the Tidewalls it calls them that, every time it talks about the defensive walls it calls them that, and it never calls the Railgun turrets Gunrigs, it only does that when an actual Tidewall shows up. Also would you mind pointing out where it calls them "bunkers" or "forts" (besides the name of one formation that doesn't describe what it actually is) because I've looked over their fluff pieces, and that doesn't come up. Also where did the Tau defensive wall ever appear from nowhere? I hate reading this book and I swear I've gone over every page now but worse and worse shit just keeps coming up, firstly with this point, the Imperium was fully aware of where the Tau's first several defensive lines were, that's why they were targeted by the drop pods, secondly here's more evidence that the walls aren't mobile: "The plan was for them to deliver a hard counter-strike and then, while the enemy regrouped, the incoming Tau forces could get within the defensive lines. In a thousand battles upon a hundred planets, such tactics had served the Tau well, and none employed them with greater mastery than did Commander Shadowsun." The walls were incapable of coming with them and this is now apparently a strategy that has been used since before the Tidewalls were even created since they're relatively new, and wouldn't have been around for all of those other battles. Also calling a section of a Tidewall a Rampart is actually accurate, minus the mobile bit that's what they are. 4B) I'm not sure what you're going on about here. C) When I say buildings I'm referring to the defensive walls, the domes past the defensive walls, the structures the Space Marines pass by, the Slave domes the Imperial Citizens are kept in, the Earth Caste domes the Eversor breaks into, the facility the Marines attack in the end, and every building that I've forgotten to mention here that wasn't under a shield. Also if this were any sort of reasonable book the shields wouldn't have literally the unlimited power to hold back everything, and if you're able to take down the shields, why not pull the ground troops back then nuke them? You'd save yourself a lot of soldiers, but to be fair the Imperium usually doesn't care about that. -- Triacom (talk) 09:27, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
A) 1) Against a few hundred bikers altering the line may be useful, but not against thousands of men and hundreds of tanks. Surrounding a complete IG spearhead would only mean they can now attack in all directions, not to mention the SM foiled most of their maneuvering plan with their deep strike. And not only backing away meant the Tau skirmishers were as good as dead (they kinda were) but "Forwards for the Emperor!" and "Fire and Advance!" solve that. 2) What other railgun turrets do they have, or did they plant Area denial nodes on the middle of the desert? And yes, the "bunker" description is from the formation's fluff, which would explain what did "bunker door opened" from p.86 mean (as in, how could they have built an actual bunker on a few hours?) And about the Tau defenses apearing from nowhere, I thought p.46's excerpt was an explanation of what one was reading, not yet moar Tau defenses. Tau are adept at making areas seemingly undefended become quickly dangerous, like those cloaked gun emplacements or Sternshield's use of airlifted tidewalls. Meanwhile, SM are adept at quickly responding to those new threats, just like how they saved IG transports by counterattacking AA guns as soon as they were detected. I too question the Tidewall's longevity as for to have been used in hundreds of planets, but Tau skirmishers couldn't retreat to the safe point because SM had deepstriked there. And about Tidewalls description go, I mentioned how they were calling them ramparts when they're pretty much floating energy fences. Meanwhile p.45 mentions Rustalkers vaulting the "low walls" - does that sound like proper static wall dimensions? 4B) I was answering why we didn't see more Valyrie assaults and that artillery wasn't asleep. C) Ah. If they weren't under the shield thend they should be dust. The mere fact they were describing those locations to us made me think they were under the shield or something, given how they weren't described as dust to begin with. I mean, to me the sprawling desert that is the city's expansion work's wasn't shielded and that would have meant the destruction of the enviro-engines from the very beginning (unless the AdMech had told them they couldn't bombard there in order to not blow up what they were going to steal). And evacuating lots of personnel was said to take weeks, and after the shield falls I'd want to bombard the place ASAP. Yeah, men are the imperium's most abundant resource and they can afford to lose many, but I was wondering if they'd treat Cadians as if they were as expendable as Kriegers, even with their huge recruitment numbers. And then there'd be the extraction of the SM elements that arrived in pods. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 11:19, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
A) 1) So what's stopping them from moving it forwards (as opposed to running over to it) then backwards? That would stop it from being a static defence, I also never said they should surround the Guard (I don't know where you got that from) and how were they skirmishers when they're defending from cover? That's the opposite definition of skirmishers, and how does backing away mean they're dead when not backing away killed them faster? If you're talking about the suits/warriors that jumped forwards, the walls weren't helping them in any way, so backing up wouldn't have changed their outcomes. 2) The railguns that're on the walls obviously. If they really were gunrigs, they'd just call them that. Also that's a formation name, not a name for any part of a tidewall, or a tidewall in general. I'm also assuming the bunker was already there and was built alongside the shielded base and it wasn't a shieldwall, since there's no part in a shieldwall that could be called a bunker (and indeed no part of a shieldwall is ever called a bunker) and the Tau were supposed to be hidden from sight, ie exactly what a Tidewall DOES NOT DO. Even though it makes no sense whatsoever of course since there's nothing to fight against on that planet and they never thought they'd be invaded, I'm sticking to what the book claims, that building a static defence is such a known Tau tactic that they did it for thousands or worlds, which is longer than the Tidewall's been around for. Also the book never jumps back in time to elaborate on an earlier section with those passages, why would it suddenly do that at that point, when it never does it before, or after that point? There's also no hint that it's what's taking place before since the Imperium was well aware of the defensive lines since before Soldiers of the Machine God, why would they be surprised when they get to them now? "Oh shit! They had defences exactly where we knew their defences were!" So the reason ramparts is accurate is because any sort of defensive fence can actually be called a rampart. It doesn't need to be some sort of tower, just a wall you hide behind. Also, yes, that does sound like proper walls because most military walls are not actually all that tall. I'm not too sure what you're expecting/wanting them to be. 4B) Ah, I see now, I was referring to the main artillery that arrived during the Farsight's arrival fight (how appropriate that the Mont'ka is called almighty in that section), since that's what we were talking about, and then you started to talk about the final battle again so I was a little confused. C) SHOULD be dust, but aren't for some reason. When the Imperium gets past the Defensive walls they very clearly come across many hab-domes that are not under any sort of shield, because that's the same place that gets hit with the orbital bombardment. Now as for why it was not hit earlier is because the author's an idiot. I can't even really see the AdMech telling them not to blow up the enviro-engines firstly because it's Tech Heresy (they should be fully onboard with destroying it) and secondly because the Imperium already has some devices capable of controlling the weather. Making them really surprised here is like having a Guardsmen being surprised that he's supposed to travel in a Chimera. I don't think you'd need to evacuate the planet with most orbital bombardments either, you could just pull your men (mostly) out of the range of the bombardments. Order a retreat and say any who can't make it out before the blasts hit were a "necessary sacrifice". I don't think they'd be willing to sacrifice that many Cadians, but I also don't think that the Cadians should have been fighting them in the first place. I've mentioned several times that they have a far more important planet to defend, and while yes, they do sacrifice a lot of Cadians on that planet, those deaths at least have a purpose in taking down Traitor/Daemon forces. Thinking more about it the Death Korps really are far more suited to this mission. For the most part too if Terminators teleported in they could teleport out, if Assault Marines flew in then they could fly out, and I'm not even sure why they'd need drop pods to take down the shields when their other options would do it better. -- Triacom (talk) 12:02, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
A) 1) Marines are stopping them. And how could they not be skirmishers? Shadowsun pretty much launched a Mont'Ka (completely unlauded and in Farsight's style). Tons of battlesuits and mechanized infantry don't realy benefit from cover, but do benefit from a place safe from enemy attack, as they are hit & run forces. 2) As if the unidentified Railguns emplaced on the mysterious Tau walls cannot be Gunrigs from a Tidewall Network - it's not like there are lots of sources of true Railguns in 7E. If we assume it is the whole formation the pieces fit rather well. About the bunkers, that's how the formation's text describes it (a convenietly unspecified "it"). Yes, this means the author doesn't know a bunker is mostly underground, but we could liken it to those floating HQ buldings they use. Kinda like a mobile Maginot line equivalent. Otherwise, where did Farsight's ambush came from, abandoned human bunkers? (He could be hidden the same way Shadowsun hid her cadres). Sticking to what the book claims even though it goes againstt your previous statements of Tau disliking static defenses? It says the tactic of hit & retreat behind a wall has worked, not that it has to be a static brick wall - that's pretty much Sternshield's tactic, and he's known to use actual Tidewalls. Shadowsun also makes them fall into the siege mindset using mobile walls. Why would they suddenly build static defenses? Unlike those static defenses, assuming the defensive lines to be mobile wouldn't really contradict anything, the closest thing would be that excerpt and that's only if it isn't an explanation that didn't fit in the previous page due to the image. The imperium was well aware of the defensive lines? It barely mentions them once on the previous chapter, and only as a far away thing that wasn't reached on time by the Tau. And a military non-provisional static defence would be a structure taller than a man that cannot be easily vaulted over, like the Berlin Wall (3.6m), with watchtowers. Or very high multi-stage fences at the least. In 40k the only static defenses that have a chance of success are IG's Maginot-style defensive lines. It's not like a mere fence could stall a comited attack, unless it was energized and mobile xD. 4B) Isn't it the same? Say, maybe artillery did play a part in the repulsion of Tau. C) As of late the AdMech have become more like the Blood Ravens when dealing with xenotech than the old times when they were like the Inquisition. Does the imperium have Hunger-games-level environmental machines tho? I know they'd go full orbital on any troop that didn't evacuate, albeit I think they'd wait a little for the elements of first founding chapters to evacuate enough members. Not like they can't take it tho. I was thinking about drop pods because of "how about they force wrong teleport coordinates" and "what if AA hinders aerial deployment" issues, but in hindsight I doubt Tau can mess with teleportation. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 09:18, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
A) 1) Sorry, but I'm having trouble following what you're talking about here, are you talking about when the Skitarii leave? Because that's not what we're talking about in this section, and there's no way retreating behind the defences would ever be considered a Mont'ka, because a Mont'ka is when you put everything you have on the weakest point of the enemy, whether that be a part in their battle line or to break their chain of command, either way it's meant to cripple the enemy, which was never her plan: "Her plans remained the same – to maximise enemy casualties while minimising her own." "Nagging doubt held her back, for this time, her goal was not to win the battle, but to safeguard Aun’Va." Also how would the Marines stop the walls from moving forward before they even arrived? Not to mention defending from cover while in formation means you ARE NOT a skirmisher. Battlesuits and Mechanized infantry don't benefit from cover? Funny, but I thought the ambush at blackfossil ruins and the Clash of Iron proved otherwise. How exactly do they not benefit from cover that would also double as a firing platform? 2) Yes, we can't assume that's what they are because they weren't called that, as I pointed out several times, if they were Gunrigs, the book would have said so. If we assume it's the whole formation, then the pieces don't fit together at all because the placement and use of the walls makes no sense, as well as the name and everything else I've pointed out. They use floating HQ's? Mind pointing out to me any section in Mont'ka where the HQ was floating? So what you're claiming with that Farsight bit is that the Marines are so blind they can't see THE SAME BARRICADES THAT SCREWED THEM OVER ON THE PREVIOUS PLANET. I'm sorry but that's so fucking ridiculous, those don't do shit for hiding the Tau either, it would be literally impossible to hide using them. Presumably Farsight hid in the facility that was next to the training grounds. If the previous walls were not static then what were they? Assuming the defence lines are mobile raises up a lot of questions, none of which you've answered. The part where it mentions them and the fact that the Space Marines had them locked in as drop pod targets both mean they were well aware of them, so why would the walls stay in position if they were mobile? Every other fight they could have helped in, yet they stayed there. The point of the Berlin Wall wasn't necessarily defensive, it was to stop people from crossing, whereas combat walls are not built higher than they need to be, and generally if somebody can reach your walls, they can get past them, and especially in 40k there's no reason to build walls higher than they're needed. Also the defence walls were multi-stage defences. 4B) So what you're saying here is there were more artillery fighting during the Red Sun Assault but we didn't see them? I'm really having trouble following this because you keep jumping from that fight to the final battle and back whereas I was always talking about the Red Sun Assault. C) I don't know the general state on the environmental machines, they seem to vary from planet to planet, though I know in some WD's the Mechanicus were stated to be able to create whatever habitat they wanted out of a world, but there's no telling what would be required or how long that would take. Either way, there's no reason to be shocked about this. I don't know how the Tau could possibly mess with teleportation considering they have nothing capable of hindering warp travel, or really anything to do with the warp minus the Talismans of Arthas Moloch, which Farsight doesn't know how to use. -- Triacom (talk) 10:32, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
A) Wha-no, I was answering to the "So what's stoping it from moving" question. And Shadowsun deploys Crisis suits armed with antitank guns from Orcas to stall IG's armour support, just like Farsight does. The destruction of critical assets, which doesn't necessarily needst to be a weak element (doomed to fail because of IG's numbers), isn't that a Mont'Ka? That other time when she sent Sniper drones to kill Commissars and special weapons, wouldn't that be a Mont'Ka too' (I see Kauyon as the attack though an unexpected vector/on an overextended enemy rather than "assassinations through ambushes"). Say, Mont'Kas also maximise casualty ratios, so it wouldn't be a contradiction. The only thing that prevented her from launching a full blown attack was her need to protect Aun'Va. And before the marines arrived no one was preventing the walls from doing anything, but would the attack force stand on a platform that moves at jogging speed at best or ride freaking jetpacks to battle? I call them "skirmishers" because they are highly mobile assets intended to strike and retreat rather than hold the line, even tho battlesuits could be classified as heavy infantry. I'm talking about battlefield roles here as opposed to unit clasifications, which have begun to be rendered obsolete since the 19th C, thus actual skirmishers are mobile infantry instead of the old light infantry definition: "Skirmishers are infantry or cavalry soldiers stationed ahead or alongside a larger body of friendly troops. They are usually placed in a skirmish line to harass the enemy...the distinctions between skirmishers and heavy infantry has now disappeared". I mean, they're not cavalry and they aren't meant to be used in meatgrinder fights like line units, how else should I call these hit-and-run troops? Harasseurs? And you know that Blackfossil was more similar to Nightfighting than to actual cover like a barricade. If they were just hunkered down on their walls their mobility would be wasted. Cover is good, but having the initiative with mobile armoured forces is better. 2) So, lack of official naming means we'll never get to know what a thing is even though we have a general description of it, right? - Heraldic vehicles? Well they can't possibly mean Land Raiders and other SM vehicles. Tank suit? Surely it can't be a Dreadnought. At last, the mysterious ways of the Gue'la are met by our equally mysterious fortification-embedded Railguns which are totally-not Gunrigs. Come on, try using your imagination to solve the confusion the writer leaves before you rather than planting your feet firmly and proclaiming it just doesn't work out. It can be fun, it led me to investigate stuff I didn't know and try to work out parallels between real things and their alien equivalents. A floating HQ is seen on Arkunasha, an outdated model by now - it leds me to believe Tau have experimented with a variety of floating buildings for a while, if not necessarily actual Tidewalls (although structures reminiscent of Droneports are used against the Tyranids on Viorlos - BLAM! No more inferring stuff). And Shadowusun hid her cadres with "overlapping stealth fields" and similar tech, not invisible tidewalls or stuff like that. And one of the main advantages of a drop pod strike is the fact that you can't really react to it because they fall at meteorite speed and only decelerate at the very end, which gives you less than 1 minute notice. You'd cover mere 175 m, and that's assuming you already had sensors pointed to the sky and orders on what to do if the enemy suddenly drops from the sky. About modern combat walls, those rely on being easy to set up or replace, and function more as way blockers and recon posts than ye olde WW2 real defense networks, which are more in line with 40k examples, IG being the most notable user. This is what I imagine as a static defense, something the Tau would never do. They'd instead build energized combat fences and make them float around. 4B) After Red Sun assault they didn't really move a lot. The first mention of artillery actually contributing to the fight I think it's in 'And None Shall Stay His Wrath', but they aren't mentioned again until 'The Grand Assault'. I mean, I don't talk about artillery around Red Sun assault mainly because there are almost no mentions of it - artillery replacing the air support after the storm prevents the later was a suggestion, not a statement. C) I'd say Tau are faster at terraforming worlds, and I've never seen a Hiveworld where the environment isn't pretty much a death world outside the cities, which are merely equipped with air reclamators and void shields to prevent the air from becoming worse than chinese air, so I'm guessing Hive air smells like bus seat at best. About xenotech, TBH I never know whether the heresy dial is either on "Blood Ravens" or "Karamazov". -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 19:24, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
A) All right, good, because I was wondering how the Space Marines could have possibly stopped the walls from moving before they arrived on the fight, and if they were Tidewalls I still have no idea how they could have stopped them from moving back considering they float. You think the deployment of Crisis Suits with anti-armour guns is a Mont'ka? No that's not a Mont'ka of any kind, she's trying to kill as many Imperials while losing as few Tau as possible, she was not trying to cripple the Imperials (and indeed it doesn't) and simply by virtue that it could not cripple the enemy meant that even if it was a Mont'ka, it was doomed to failure. No the sniping of the officers also isn't a Mont'ka, because the whole point of the Mont'ka is to commit everything to your attack, and it's a do or die attitude, if you succeed, the enemy will be crippled, if you fail, you will be crippled because you need to commit all of your resources to the fight. Hiding and sniping when the enemy has reached your ambush is the definition of a kauyon, because kauyon is waiting for the enemy to make a mistake, whether that's waiting for them to expose their armour, or walk into an ambush, or any other kind of defensive strategy, whereas Mont'ka is an offensive strategy where you make the weak points yourself and then commit all of your assets to punching through that point. Mont'ka doesn't try to limit casualties to your side, in fact it does the exact opposite, so it would be a contradiction, if you don't commit everything, then it isn't a Mont'ka. Considering that there were a hell of a lot more Fire Warriors than Battlesuits I'd figure they'd ride the walls, especially when it offers them vital protection and one of the main objectives was to minimize losses. When you want to minimize losses, why would you not use the movable walls, if they could move? Oh I see, you're talking about the battlesuits, see I was always talking about the Fire Warriors defending from cover since they were still the main army and were the ones most targeted by all the forces trying to climb the walls, though now that I know you're talking about that, and to go back to an earlier point, why would the battlesuits jump behind the cover if, like you claim, it offers them nothing? 2) So every building mounted Railgun has to be a gunrig now? That's just as ridiculous as what you're trying to do. The Gunrig's a specific firing platform, it's not lack of official naming, it's omission of specific naming. If you see Railgun fire in the final battle, is that from a Gunrig, Hammerhead, Broadside, or Broadside on a Gunrig? We need these names to know what's going on in those fights, so if they're mentioning other Railguns but not saying they're Gunrigs you can't assume that they are, much like how we both agreed you couldn't assume the Lascannon fire came from Leman Russ's because it only showed up when a Baneblade entered the fight. The Tau have had floating buildings for a while, and in fact the Air Caste live in near-orbital stations, however I haven't seen anything in Mont'ka to suggest that any of their buildings are floating, probably because it's a developing world and even if they were going to build those, they haven't yet. So what's Shadowsun got to do with this when we're talking about Farsight's ambush? Yes you can't really react when Drop pods are dropped, but that's part of the point, you need to lock in the target first, then drop. For them to see those structures and assume it's not a trap when literally every other encounter they've ever fought like this was a trap is beyond ridiculous. The speed they fall at means those structures had to have already been there, and also means the Marines had to have ignored them for no reason whatsoever. Most WW2 defence walls weren't exactly that high either, in fact a lot of them were dug down, making it easier for the enemy to get into. If you'd like to say that their walls weren't static, I'm still waiting for even one example of the walls actually moving. As I pointed out before, if they were capable of moving, how did the Guard ever climb them? 4B) Ah, I see. C) I don't know how fast the Tau are at terraforming worlds, I don't even know if it would be faster or slower than the Mechanicus when they re-seed a world following Exterminatus (yes they can do that provided it was a virus bomb) since there's no real timeframe for either. You'd figure too there'd be at least one Ordo Xenos Inquisitor who'd be watching over the Crusade (since it's not just Marines) and if that happened you could definitely write it so that they took the technology for mutual interest to both parties, but as written here it doesn't make a lot of sense. -- Triacom (talk) 20:28, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
A) Quite easy, enemy models just need to be within 1" to prevent them from moving, which represents enemies climbing over the wall and chopping up the defenders. And a Mont'Ka is all about target priorization and maximum dakka to destroy vital assets; 7E Tau codex p. 37 never mentions anything about comitting all your forces, but does make emphasis on being able to retreat quickly - airdropping Crisis suits from flyers to destroy enemy armour support and jump away, that's what Farsight does all day long. And several times he has targeted officers, assassination style, and that counted as a Mont'Ka, most noticeably on 'Mont´Ka Denied' where killing synapse creatures was considered a Mont'Ka, even though it didn't have the effect thay had hoped and used no armoured support at all. In fact, what Tau don't really do is to fully comitt to anything: they'd rather flee than hold their ground or make a last stand, to make any of both would mean their tactics were defeated. And Kauyon is merely luring the enemy to a position you want it to be, which doesn't necessarily means it's a defensive strategy but instead a non-direct attack, the same way an angler fish gets its food. Fair point about the Fire warriors being the most common soldiers, although I would think Crisis suits were the most common element of the troops sent forward. About the Fire Warriors on the defense lines, aren't those busy getting pinned down by fire and getting their heads bashed in by marines? And remembering a Mont'Ka calls for a withdrawal, the defense lines would be useful as an escape route for battlesuits, under Fire warriors cover - the battlesuits defeating the tanks, which are the bullet sponge that would enable the regular infantry to overwhelm the defense lines, which otherwise are naturally strong against infantry. 2) You say it as if there were lots of emplaced Railguns. Think of a Railgun not mounted on a vehicle. Broadsides? Not since 5E, those are Heavy Rail Rifles. These Railgun emplacements look similar to the emplacements seen on Farsight's ambush, which are Gunrigs (the ones there rose up because they were hidden for the ambush). The floating HQ example was to highlight the variety of floating things the Tau have, mainly to try to explain the "bunkers" part. I think modelling a Tidewall to look like a floating pillbox wouldn't be stretching the concept too much. I said Farsight hid his ambush forces the same way Shadowsun hid hers, and you assumed he used invisible Tidewalls or something like that, but I was thinkng he hid his guys under stealth fields and the like. Why talking about Farsight's ambush to begin with? Because I was trying to figure out those "bunkers" they came from. And arines have a history of dropping to help their IG allies, this time it was no different. So, instead of fighting on their own upon the Tau defense lines they stood ready just like the time they suspected there were cloaked AA guns, and used their IG allies as the anvil. Say, the armoured interdiction cadres are sent to attack the russes, a defense line is then mustered to serve as a retreat point and mobile elements are sent from the line to stagger the IG and cover the retreat, but marines attack before the retreat is completed. And Guardsmen didn't climb them, that was marines and Skitarii. IG just broke them with firepower. About looking for instances of the defense line moving, that thing isn't moving in the same way a parked car isn't moving either. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 01:48, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
A) So... Why don't the walls just move around them then? This isn't that hard to solve, and if you remember, they are faster in fluff than they are on the Tabletop. It requires maximum dakka, but not commiting all of your forces? That's a contradiction, and while I'll admit that description doesn't say to commit all of your assets, it says you need to attack with speed and overwhelming strength, the latter Shadowsun certainly didn't use. Fair point on the non-comital bit. I didn't say that the kauyon was a defencive strategy, I said it used them. This is in contrast to the Mont'ka, in kauyon you wait for the opponent, whereas in Mont'ka you take the fight to them. I honestly don't know what the majority of troops being sent around are, Fire Warriors still attack from the sides with their Piranhas, and we're not given any sort of numbers for who's jumping ahead. So what's going on with the Fire Warriors on the second and third lines of defence while the Marines are taking care of the first line? About the retreat, that brings up the same question, why don't they use their walls to back away? 2) Sorry, I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion, but I brought that up because that's the most evidence you have that they're using at least one form of movable barricade. Where exactly are you "seeing" these Railguns? Also another thought occurred to me, when they're attacking the defensive walls, they're right near them, yet the railguns used are described as "distant." Wouldn't it be possible for the Tidewall off in the distance to be able to shoot past the defensive walls and into the Imperials? That way they're still distant and it answers this issue. Also the gunrigs weren't hidden for Farsight's ambush, his ambush happened after the Imperials broke through those. I also have no idea where those bunkers came from (and there's no reason the Tau would build stationary ones in the first place) but there's definitely no mention of stealth or emplacements there. Come to think of it there's no reason for them to have a military base either since they never expected to be attacked until the world was finished, and when that happened there wouldn't be a base. If there were, why would the Tau need to leave through doors to engage the Imperials? That strategy would make sense, IF and only if the walls were stationary. Now considering too how slowly the Skitarii were moving (not even running) I don't see why they wouldn't back away, if they did the Skitarii never would have caught them. -- Triacom (talk) 09:37, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
A) Are they really that fast? And overwhelming dakka doesn't necessarily mean comitting all your forces. Fire warriors aren't exactly Killing Blow material when compared to Crisis suits, which have stronger guns, or just more rate of fire, and can be extracted quickly; and battlesuits are really rank-and-file Tau. Yet you could send regular Firewarriors with air support but no armoured elements to kill landbound synapse tyranids and it's still a Mont'Ka. Shadowsun used speed, and it did stall the guard, and she did send lots of bombers alongside the Crisiswing...but she did hold back her forces. Maybe is't not a Killing Blow because of its purpose rather than its composition - to stall instead of to anihilate. Ah, I understood it as saying Kauyon was specifically defensive, ok I get you now. This is a well choreographed shield formation used to gain terrain and whittle away the oposition, which wouldn't be too different from WD:Kauyon's Tidewalls vs Scars. Imagine what would happen if suddenly enemies appeared within the ranks and the formation became a melee - stratagem would be lost and with it the battle. So it was either help or fall back to the second line, but breaking the first line would make holes in it and the Guard wouldn't have had to smash them with fire, just walk through it. So, they tried to stall them, for the greater good, and bought time for the other lines to ready to the change of plans. Still, that would work too even if the wall was a static structure (albeit it does explain why they wouldn't use a mobile wall to escape towards the back walls). Say, I'm arguing it's not such a thing because it's something you told me the Tau didn't do, but if you tell me there are instances of Tau building Maginot line-styled defenses on their sept worlds, then alright, it may be static. So, heavy static defenses, is that a Tau thing? 2) Because there are like only two patterns of emplaced Railguns. About those distant railguns, sure it might just be it - they could be distant because they moved backwards or something. Or they just arrived, which would explain why marines didn't deepstrike on them instead and why they were unexpected. I thought you were talking of the previous railguns, the ones that met the incoming Russes with a crossfire, which happens right as they enter the clear zone, but we don't know how close that is. Using what you're saying, the first line would be kind of like an early warning line and barrier, and the following lines would be where the actual defense would happen? About Farsight's ambush, why can't he have a base? Most 40k fortifications are prefabricated, like Tidewalls or Aegis lines, so building a base for him shouldn't take too much time, and it said "gun emplacements rose up on lifts". I mean, these are confirmed to be floating, no way they're not tide-somethings. As for him being hidden, how do people set ambushes these days? Creed does it, Ravens do it, Shadowsun does it, why can't Farsight do it too? "Why would Tau need to leave through doors" as in through actual doors or just to leave a building? Because it's kinda hard to ambush someone if you stay in your base, even if the base moves (they aren't that fast, and only move on open ground). And Skitarii in general are slow, but the onles that jumped were Rustaklers with their "inhuman burst of speed". -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 02:33, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
A) They're certainly faster than Infantry that're just walking towards them. So I misspoke there, however let's look at your "overwhelming dakka" for a moment: "Had Shadowsun sent in her carefully marshalled battlesuit teams, she might have truly staggered the Imperial forces, but her half-measures were too easily countered." Hmm... what's Farsight think about that? "There were no half measures with the Killing Blow." Well there we go, she definitely didn't pull a Mont'ka. I don't blame you for missing that though, after all, the earlier sentence is inherently contradictory, because if she sent everything, the AdMech would just come back and the Tau would be even more fucked. So static walls aren't something the Tau used to do, before this anyway, you know how they used to fight the Imperium? One small piece at a time. They wouldn't take on massive amounts of Space Marines and Guardsmen like this, because the Tau HATE attrition based warfare, which static walls favour, and the Imperium loves attrition based warfare. If they're taking the Imperium on in the open that's a recipe for disaster, because what would have happened in a Clash of Iron had some Terminators teleported behind the Hammerheads? Or worse yet, what if the Imperium actually was able to spare the resources and dropped off a titan there? They'd be fucked, which is why previously (before Farsight Enclaves), whenever they were out in the open they'd retreat as fast as possible and need to use everything at their disposal, laying ambushes, making distractions so battlesuits could go for armour, making killing fields, and most importantly using their mobility to get out of a bad situation, if they wanted to win. So far this is the first Tau story I've ever heard of where they built any kind of defensive lines outside their cities. I guess we'll never really know what's going on with the railguns either because this book sucks at showing what's happening. Considering though that the plan had been to jump ahead of the first defensive line, then duck behind it and defend I don't think it would work like a warning line, the Tau already know the Imperials are coming, because they're fighting them before they get to the barrier. I can't see anything that would indicate the later lines being more reinforced/higher/bigger, though I'd hope they are, otherwise how could the Tau there fire over the first line? If those lines are built higher too, then they have to be static walls since Tidewalls don't work like that either, but I guess we'll never know if they're built higher or if they're on some sort of slope since we never get that much description for them. Now about Farsight's ambush, yeah, he can have a base, which would be a bad idea (more on that in a bit), but you were just saying that they'd hide using the Tidewalls, which is what I was responding too, so why would they need to open the doors on certain tidewall structures (the ones that actually do have doors) to participate in the fight? Also those gun emplacements were inside the building (the training facility), I'm not sure "lifts" means they're floating up, or if the building's just raising them up. Besides that, you can't just slap gun emplacements on a tidewall and so far I can't see anything to suggest that's what they used (the tidewall barricades I mean), as opposed to the building they're standing on. The main reason I said it was a bad idea to use them in any way, was because using them and having them in the open is the equivalent of having a giant neon sign saying "WE ARE GOING TO AMBUSH YOU WHEN YOU COME NEAR US!" Now as for why building their main base was a bad idea, building it is the equivalent of telling the Imperium exactly where all of their essential officers (generals and leaders) are staying, and since the Imperium has many methods of getting to it and it's a static defence that can only be defended in attrition warfare, building it would go against everything in the Tau way of war. -- Triacom (talk) 10:46, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
A) No they're not - they move about the same speed as infantry and they can't move back forever, especially from the Skitarii. If someone sprints then that's it. About the static walls favouring attrition warfare, well that's why I assumed they were mobile in the first place. I wont talk about that time when Farsight enacted a Mont'Ka with 80 battlesuits and destroyed all Tyranid air support xD, but you're kinda downplaying Shadowsun's forces here. Say she sent 1% of her forces, that's still 10k+ Tau. And Terminators teleporting behind anything is almost always a bad thing for anyone xD. Not that the Tau are bad in a clash of armour, as seen in Taros. Titans tho? Not a big deal since the introduction of Tiger Sharks AXs on Taros too. The back walls need to be higher? If only they had a way to rise up on lifts. Otherwise you'd need to asssume the Tau built a bigger version of the things they don't build in the first place. About those lifts, they have been gravity and mag-lifting lots of stuff on this book so there's no reason to think they're using physical elevators now. And I just happen to know the kind of building with a cannon that also floats... -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 07:31, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
A)Sure they are, the average movement speed is defined by somebody moving at a quick but not reckless pace and rarely slowing/stopping to fire one or two shots as suppresive fire, this has been the case since the third edition rulebook (where it stated this), it is in no way a walking speed. Yes if somebody sprints they can catch them, however that wasn't what the Skitarii did. Yes they can't back up forever, so it would be nice to see them get caught that way instead of staying to fight to the last man, which is another tactic that's completely wrong with Tau Doctrine. She didn't send 1% of her forces, she sent everything except her last reserves, because it said that when she took to the field herself, it would be with everything she had and the very next time she sends in reinforcements, she takes to the field herself. I think you're downplaying the aircraft that the Imperium have, if the Tau send in their huge aircraft, the Imperium does likewise, and in much larger numbers. The reason everyone crowds around a Titan isn't just because they love to watch it go, it's because Titans genuinely do need to be supported, though having said that, where the fuck were all the aircraft during a Clash of Armour? Some Imperial Bombers or Valkyries would have ended the engagement a lot faster and better. If the walls could rise up on lifts how were the Imperial Guard scaling them like they did? did they just jump really high or carry ladders everywhere? I also don't think a Gunrig counts as a building, unless you want to call a Land Raider a movable city. -- Triacom (talk) 08:47, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
A) I'm aware the 6" "walking" speed is pretty much jogging through unbroken terrain while letting loose some shots here and there, but that's undeniably slower than a sprint, not to mention IG has their shoot & sprint orders (kinda like Fire and Move) and the Rustalkers are freaking superhumen/Mantis-men. It was the Rustalkers the ones who jumped over the walls, not the IG, which just dumped ordnance on them. And even if they did (where?), that's exactly what a Combat engineer's job is. Tau don't make last stands, but sacrificing some of their own to give the others a chance? Greater good erry day. And I said "say she sent 1%", not "She did send 1%, as seen on p. XX". There's your overwhelming dakka, part of which was deepstriking and attacking specific targets, even if they only staggered the imperials at best. To a regular PDF that'd have been a successful killing blow. The ALMIGHTY MONT'KA was pretty much Battlesuits deepstriking while following 'Weapons free'. What makes it different from Shadowsun's Battlesuits deepstriking while carpeting foes with a layers of explosions? Right now I'm not defending whether it was a Mont'Ka or not, just saying "Gee, that's a lot of fast dakka". So, better tell me, in your opinion (and not one of the book's examples) how does a well executed Mont'Ka that ultimately fails due to shortage of personnel looks like? And most of the air support was mantaining an air cordon around the landing sites, which lasted several days, so they're only mentioned until just before the Red Sun assault. I'm aware the Titans must be supported, but it's usually by land units tasked to prevent the enemy from swarming it and there's relatively few air support. Not to mention Tau planes are better than their imperial counterparts, several times they're seen to win the dogfight and there's little an escort can do to protect something from D railguns at 110" away. I like how I pretty much just said "floating cannon building" and you knew I was talking about Gunrigs because what else could they be?. They're not buildings indeed, but "battlefield debree", which I'd call a misleading term; one closer to "war trash" than to "fortification". I've been misusing the term "building" in many places, as if they were the same as a battlefield debris, which is the term I should have used all along, so I apologize for that. I consider Gunrigs to be like that ADL's Quad-gun emplacement that also happens to float. And another point I forgot to adress, making a fortress entinces the enemy to attack there, which is precisely what the Tau wanted, they made them fall into the siege mindset, and the ones on the fake training grounds were explosive traps, the actual Gunrigs were elsewhere. About how they could have both a base and still be hidden...??? stealthfieldsforyall.exe -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 10:51, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
A)I'm not sure why you think I said they were faster than sprinting speed when I said the opposite. I'm also not sure if they actually did break the walls since "breach" also refers to clearing a section of the wall without destroying it. Sacrificing some of their own for others to get away is what I was referring to, they don't do it. Yes they'll sometimes fight battles they know are going to get a lot of people killed, however they don't send soldiers into an area fully intending for them to die. They didn't stagger the Imperials at all though, Stark countered her tactics just fine and the march continued on, so how is it overwhelming dakka? Yes to a planetary defence force that might have been a Mont'ka, however that has no relevance here since that's now what she's fighting. The differences between what Farsight did and what Shadowsun did were as follows: Farsight actually did commit with his forces in a concentrated attack with the intention of stopping the Imperials, whereas Shadowsun's main goal was to kill as many Imperials as possible without any hope of stopping the advance. There's no intention of it being any sort of killing blow, and it was done badly (the half measures I mentioned earlier) so how could it possibly be a Mont'ka? Honestly a Mont'ka that fails due to shortage of personel looks like what happened when Farsight took on the Tyranids. So with the titans, why exactly would they not have anti-air there either? You don't usually see planes because planes happen to be very fast, they're not exactly one for sticking around an area where they cannot stop and cannot refuel. Tau planes are better? No they're not, the Valkyries of the Imperial Guard are far superior to both the Sun Sharks and the Razorsharks, and before you bring up Tigersharks, Barracudas or Mantas, those are all atmospheric craft, and must be compared against other atmospheric craft since that puts them into a whole new bracket of far more powerful aircraft. Honestly too the range bits is one of the reasons the Taros Campaign isn't a good book, your craft is capable of flying into space and back down, coming in from above the enemy aircraft, allowing you to engage them from multiple directions if you split your forces and by the time you're able to engage them thanks to penetrating the atmosphere at your speed, all range differences are negligible, what do you want to do? "Just fly at them as if we're on a 2D plane and hope for the best." If Forge World really was the standard, the Imperium would have died a long, long time ago. Now about the siege, I still have no idea why they'd want the Imperium to fall into a siege mindset, since that's one of the things they're really, REALLY good at and it's the one area (defending from a siege) that the Tau are supposed to suck at. Hell, in the 3rd edition Codex Farsight fucked up defending from a siege so badly, that even though the ground war was going extremely well he had to flee Arkunasha when the Orks found out where his main base was and laid siege to it. Now granted, they were unable to wipe out the defenders, however they had completely surrounded and pinned down the Tau to the point that they were unable to even counter-attack in any way. Of course that's the old edition Farsight, the one who has an ego problem because when he lost that war he blamed everyone except himself. Now how they usually have a base but keep it hidden is by setting it up in civilian buildings, or some structure that seems to have no strategic value. Your enemy isn't going to attack there because what would be the point? For example, if Shadowsun's base was inside the dome cities, nobody would have found her because the Imperium just ignored them, whereas here, much like what should have happened in the Taros Campaign, the Imperium could just locate the Tau easily, then rush it with so many troops the Tau couldn't possibly contain them, rather than slowly get closer to it over the course of several weeks and only attack from one side. So long as the enemy doesn't know where you've set up your base (if it was in a hab-dome for example, which actually isn't that uncommon), you can have a base and keep it hidden. In other news though I found more evidence to for the walls being static: "The Imperial Guard and Space Marine forces attacked the Tau defence lines one by one, destroying each gun turret and stronghold in methodical order." Strongholds are not a part of a Tidewall in any way, shape or form, and apparently there's multiple strongholds, so they really did just wall off a desert for absolutely no reason. While I'd agree that Gunrigs aren't buildings, they aren't really turrets either, they're firing platforms. This also means that the Guard would have to climb over the defences, or what's left of them. I do have to wonder if Stealth Fields are going to become the new Dues Ex Machina of 40k: How'd they beat the Necrons? They couldn't see them through their stealth tech. Daemons? Stealth tech. Orks? Stealth tech. Tyranids? Stealth tech. But all of those races should be capable of building something that can see right through the stealth fields, or they should already be naturally immune to it. Nah, this is super-advanced stealth tech that not even Daemons can see through! I guess they already do have that with the ghostkeel suit, since it should only be effective against some members of the Imperium AND THAT'S IT yet it works on everything. -- Triacom (talk) 14:00, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
A)Well you kinda wrote it as if the walls had moved backwards then footslogging infantry was utterly doomed. And considering they breached a line with mortars and tanks, that breach could have been literal. After all, the Hydro plant was reduced to rubble, Wesel 1945-style, when they were following explicit orders of toning it down. Still, tearing down a not-that-high combat wall shouldn't be too hard, right? The Tau on the wall weren't sent there to die on purpose, they just happened to get caught on the marine assault, and Shadowsun is very pragmatical. The moment she saw them so close to marines she probably wrote them off as KIA. And sacrificing a few to save the many, that sounds like serving a greater good. She staggered guardsmen a little, not decisively but enough to retreat her forces, but was countered by marines and skitarii. And Shadowsun's strike wasn't a Mont'Ka because of different goals despite a simmilar execution, that I can accept. About Titan support, I think I get you now: Taros was also badly executed, and thus the felling of the Advensis Primaris is an example of how easy is to down a titan when bereft of air support, and that's a mistake that is supposed to be uncommon. Valkyries superior to Razorsharks? Such nonsense. Razorsharks simply have a better design because they are air superiority fighters - turret mounted armament, internal mounted missiles, extra maneuvering jets, not to mention they're not freaking metal boxes. Meanwhile, the Valkyrie is closer to the Mil-Mi 28 24 helicopter because it's an armed transport first and an attack craft after. Lightnings and to a lesser extend Thunderbolts, those are the closest equivalent to Razorsharks. I'm not bringing Mantas because that's closer to a spaceship than to a plane, but Barracudas? That's an atmospheric plane, and not even a superheavy like the Tiger Shark, which is also atmospherical. The first usually engages Thunderbolts, and the latter's closest equivalent would be a Thunderhawk. And that's not taking into account Air caste pilots, which are freaking bred to be pilots, unlike humans. Which use more reliable AI assistance as opposed to "I hope the machine spirit is happy today" systems supported by faith. I'm not understanding what you meant with "the range is negligible" and "3D space" tho (air battles are 3D by deffault). Indeed, sieges are one of the things the imperium's the best at. They were eager for a frontal fight, so eager many times they failed to consider the target itself was a trap. Shrike knew of this and he wasn't caught in it, yet still failed to realize in time that the attack itself was meant to divert them from the main conflict. Turrets, firing platforms, non-enclosed swivelling gun-platforms (aren't these things called "turrets" too? Like a pickup with a machinegun on the back), whatever. O, I wonder how will the Guard climb such mighty bastion. They're not the Chinese wall, man. A Tidewall defense Network is also refered to as "energized redoubt". Redoubt, fortress and stronghold are pretty much the same thing. Or should the GunFORT formation be called "Gun-Floating Battlefield Debris"? And yes, stealth would work on anything that relied on emitted radiation for detection. Psykers should still sense them, the same as Weirdboyz. The Hive mind, sure, but only near synaptic creatures or stuff with SM-grade senses (Gaunts are little more than jaws with limbs). Necrons...I don't know about them - too many retcons, I don't pay attention to them, surely they can deal with that. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 21:49, 6 February 2016 (UTC)
Just like how you didn't feel the need to write that the railgun turrets were gunforts, I didn't feel the need to clarify that there were buildings behind the walls, especially when we talked about them previously. They breached a line with mortars, tanks AND lasgun fire: "Slowly, with massed lasgun fire, concentrated mortar rounds and a surge of tanks from the armoured regiment, a section of the second Tau line was breached..." Which is why I'm iffy on whether or not they destroyed the structure itself since how could lasguns of all things possibly help with that? So what exactly were they planning? They planned to attack ahead of the walls, jump behind them... and then sit there fighting until they died. Yes the Marines stopped a good number of her forces from reaching the walls, but that doesn't change the fact that all of the Tau defending the walls were sent there to die. She also didn't abandon those who didn't make it to the walls, she sent in some of her reserves to rescue them (though not to rescue the ones guarding the walls). Sacrificing a few intentionally isn't a Tau tactic, as I said losses happen, that's expected, but sending warriors to a place specifically so that they are supposed to die is bullshit. Every time in the past those deaths were for a purpose, and if they wanted to give them purpose in this book, the Tau should have been doing a fighting retreat the entire time and trying to keep as many of their own people safe as possible so that they'd live when the reinforcement fleet arrived. If they were there to slow down the Imperium until the main Tau base was evacuated and could be moved across the planet, fine, that makes sense, whereas here it doesn't make any sense as to why they didn't move. The Tau's greatest strength has always been how mobile and adaptive their army is, so why the hell would they bunker down in a way that would easily let their enemy adapt to them (for example NOT sending the knights in where the Stormsurge suits and tanks were) and in a way that they lose almost all of their mobility? That's another reason why building a military base makes no sense for them. Well I'm glad it we can both agree that it wasn't a Mont'ka then. Oh Razorsharks are definitely worse in nearly every way, let's go with their advantages first: they're smaller, have a better design and use much more advanced technology to move, and as such they don't really have the need to refuel when out in the field, but in a straight up fight between the two in terms of practicality? Thanks to STC's and Forge Worlds the Imperium doesn't have any issues making as many Valkyries as they need, partially due to the fact that the materials aren't very advanced or uncommon, and while we don't know how long it takes the Tau to make an aircraft I'm willing to bet they wouldn't be able to keep up in terms of production. Now as for armament and armour, the Valkyries easily, effortlessly beat the shit out of the Razorsharks. If given a Lascannon in place of a Multi-laser (and since they're fighting aircraft they wouldn't be armed with a multi-laser anyway) their weapons have far more range (their missiles have double the range) of the Razorsharks and have a higher payload, in addition they're capable of taking more damage thanks to MUCH tougher armour while being able to carry troops from point A to point B and even with all of this, in a practical sense they have more mobility to them as well. I'm really not sure where you get the helicopter comparison, because it has a VTOL system? Also being used as a transport doesn't mean it cannot perform other roles, or cannot outperform other craft at their roles. For example, the Valkyrie is better at aerial domination than the Lightning, however it isn't mobilized as fast, and it's pointless to send it on the patrols that the Lightning craft go on. My main point against the Barracuda and Tiger Sharks is we can't compare them to Valkyries, it's like comparing a Space Marine to a Guardsmen, and since the Imperium has their own heavier hitters they should be compared to those. I'd also like to point out the while the Air Caste were bred to be pilots, they don't have the same combat experience that the Imperial pilots have, and while I'd say that given time they'd definitely be far superior in terms of skill, they're still flying inferior craft when it comes to the Razor/Sun Sharks. What I meant be "distance is negligible" is that there are ways to get around the fact that the enemy has longer ranged weapons than you do, and the Imperium in that book doesn't take advantage of any of them, for example attacking from below, from the side, from the front, and from above all at once would have fucked over the Tau's aerial wings. Yes please tell me how the Guard would climb them, when you said they could just float up. Think about it, if the first wall was on ground level (or close to it) then the next wall would have to be at least 7-10 feet above ground level, then the next would be 14-17 feet above ground level, so how did they climb up onto those? You'd figure if the walls fell, the book would make mention of it. I don't think you should use the trap the Space Marines were caught in as a good example, since we've already gone over how there was no point for them to attack that spot with Marines in the first place. A Redoubt is the same thing as a fortress or stronghold? No it isn't, that's entirely wrong, a redoubt is the wall outside the stronghold, not the stronghold itself. Honestly the GunFORT formation seemed more metaphorical than literal, much like most formation names unless you think a large group of Marines/Tanks/knights is a literal spearhead somehow (and I do mean the pointy object). So how exactly would a Ghostkeel suit be effective at hiding from Gaunts? Not all stealth tech does the same thing, and even with the invisible ones I'm sure the Gaunts could just smell them out, that is if the Ripper Swarms didn't already do that. I'm not too sure about the Necrons either, partially thanks to the retcons, and partially because each dynasty has wildly differing ways of achieving the same results. For example, the Necron book states that all Monoliths can recover from damage, looking as if their hulls rippled like water and formed back into place, however this is accomplished in one of the following ways depending on the dynasty: Warping time on that point so that the Monolith is restored to before the damage occurred. Microscarrabs flew across the tear and repaired the damage. There actually wasn't any damage, the Cryptek in charge is trying to impress his boss and used a holofield around the monolith to make it look like it was damaged and that the damage was suddenly fixed, thanks to them of course. On the one hand I like how the different Dynasties have more personality, on the other hand they've lost most consistency. Given how much they love detection-lightning-fields though I doubt that the Tau could fool those. -- Triacom (talk) 02:38, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
As in, how could explosives destroy a defense line? That's just what they do. "Massed lasgun fire" lol, maybe that's what kept the defenders pinned, but that's nigh useless against buildings. The buildings behind the lines are non-military buildings from the planned city, some of them may not even be yet completely built, but they're in no way any sort of barrier on their own. And the Tau in the lines were sent to cover the Armoured Cadres' retreat, and afterwards they would have retreated themselves like pretty much all Tau engagements go, noone is being sent to die. "A helicopter comparison" excuse me? The Mil-Mi 24 isn't just any helicopter, and it's a very generous comparison: VTOL, decent speed, high dakka, even higher armour and a transport capacity, that thing it's a flying tank, not to mention it's russian so the spammy potential is included as well. Yet it's not a dedicated air superiority aircraft and a comparison between them and Razorsharks will end up being unfair, which is why I wanted to compare them to Lightnings and similar craft, which I know the imperium must have brought to Agrellan (yet none are mentioned). In accordance with the previous point I also specifically didn't compare Barracudas to Valkyries, both of which fill completely different roles and are in wholly different weight classes. "Their missiles have double the range" Dude, Seeker Missiles. Also, they're not Ordnance like the Valk's (so they can fire more). Imperial planes survive attacks by being tough, Tau do so by not getting hit in the first place through decouy launchers, disruption pods and the like. Air caste pilots + lame Tau craft = inferior to supreme humans? Lol, when did this became a "Humanity Fuck Yeah" thread? Being pilots it's what the Air caste is all about, and they're aware of Gue'la tactics because obtaining info is one of the Tau's main strenghts. About the distance and the imperium not using alternate tactics to compensate their shorter range, Thunderbolts can deploy from space, which is dominated by the humans, and that'd have been a nice tactic, had we seen any Thunderbolts (what other fighter aircraft can the Navy deploy? Around a Barracuda's weight class). And I don't think Gunrigs and similar can float that high. Even though floating should make them all terrain, their low clearance from the ground makes them unable to pass over big rocks and similar, and ~14ft would mean a clearance about as high as a two-story house. I don't think they had to be (or were able to) float that high, considering the cannons are mounted on top, meaning their shadow zone is smaller. Not to mention they're not seen climbing anything, much less the third line. "If the walls fell", they were in shambles, and the other ones were breached. Doesn't look like they survived the battle in great shape either. And, considering marines always seem to want to punch their enemies in the face and aren't too keen on artillery (some would unleash artillery and then punch the enemy in the face) setting them on a siege mindset would lead them to storm a fortification as opposed to saturate bomb the area and move on. And remember "Fortification" is a very wide term. Look for "Stronghold" in wikipedia - you'll be redirected to "Fortification". There, a link to "Redoubt" can be found, which describes it as "a fort or fort system usually consisting of an enclosed defensive emplacement outside a larger fort". So, still a fort(type). I'm not discussing the individual parts of a fortification, as even the defensive walls are considered a kind of fortification even if they're not the actual same thing like, say, a Gunrig Tower or Droneport Bastion or something like that, it's still a kind of fortification (before you go "Gunrigs aren't towers" indeed they aren't, I'm merely using them as loose equivalents for towers as Tau don't really have stuff too similar to a tower - take the terms as if it was a RTS setting and it'll make a little more sense). You also mention the names of formations being more metaphorical than literal (even though that's the actual name of those), why can't the names presented on the book be of a similar nature? This is about the names, where the Gunfort's case is a clear example of how the text takes ample liberties on the naming of things, as they sometimes decide to use cool names as opposed to description-fitting ones (I think the Gunrigs belong to the Defensive Networks rather than to actual Gunforts tho, that was just an example, geez). And I never said they could fool Necrons because I'm not talking about them. None of our guys plays them, and I didn't care about them (the only egyptians in my heart are the TSons, even if the Necrons came first). Hell, before this comment the only thing I knew about the origin of the use of the term "Decurion" on 40k was that it came from a Necron formation/FOC/thing, yet I have never cared to know exactly what that thing is so, whatever you say about Necrons my policy will be "Well if you say so", lol. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 05:56, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
I'm sorry but I don't understand what you mean in the first several sentences, when did I say I was surprised that explosives did the job? I said I was confused as to how lasguns played a part in the breach. How did the lasguns keep the defenders pinned when the incoming fire made it very hard for the Guard to advance? That just means they weren't pinned. When did I claim that the buildings were a barrier? If they were meant to retreat, would you mind pointing out where it says this, and also why they didn't retreat? I think you get what I mean though when I say that just because it's not an aerial superiority fighter doesn't mean it can't be better than an actual aerial superiority fighter, especially if the latter was created by a very different people trying to overcome very different limitations. It also occured to me that the argument is kind of moot given that the Razorshark isn't really an aerial superiority fighter either, that's rightfully reserved for the Barracuda. All right you got me on the seeker missiles range (not sure how I forgot to write that in) however it's still a weaker payload. While yes, they can fire both of them at the same time, they're still much less likely to penetrate the armour of the Valkyrie than the Valkyrie is to penetrate the armour of the Razorshark, and they also carry two Hellstrike missiles. You do know that the "just suck it up" strategy does NOT reflect all Imperial ships right? There's plenty that survive just by being fast. That's not "Humanity, Fuck Yeah", that's a plot point from Taros, look at the description of the Barracuda: "The Imperium's pilots often have a hard edge of combat experience that the Tau Air Caste find hard to match." It also mentions that the Thunderbolts are very fast and the Barracudas are very closely matched with them, my point on the craft being bad was just in reference to the Razorshark. I did mention the space deployment earlier, and though I'm not too sure how many atmospheric craft the Imperium have, I do know that they have more than enough to attack from pretty much every angle. I'm also sure the Space Marines had a good number of Thunderhawks. Unless you're claiming that all the Tau in the second and third lines had cannons they shouldn't have been able to help out in the fight against the first line (and likewise the third shouldn't be able to help the second). When I said "fell" I meant fell out of the air. If the walls were floating, they'd fall when they were destroyed so the guard would have to climb over them, and if they were regular walls they'd still have to climb over them. Once again, breached can mean anything from "outright smashed" to "the troops in that section are dead wheras the walls are fine". Marines don't fight battles for no reason, why would they lock in the coordinates for these lines when they could just kill them all with a few orbital strikes? To bring up a different comparison, sending Marines in to kill everything on a planet during the Great Crusade was considered an exterminatus, however it was only done when either the other methods wouldn't work for some reason, or the Imperium wanted to keep the lands and cities and technologies intact, or Fulgrim and/or Mortarion were just assholes that day. The Raven Guard are supposed to be among the smartest of Marines, why would they ever get baited into a siege mentality when it's ALWAYS bit them before when they were fighting the Tau? They don't have the "punch them in the face!" Mentality that the marines you mention are supposed to have, hell, the ones you mention that actually do prefer close combat (only blood angels and white scars) are in the minority given how many follow the Codex Astartes. Even the space wolves had their own tactics, which included giving their veterans less armour so that they could sneak up on the enemy to shoot them, hell their close combat units are the new recruits, all the older and smarter guys get the big guns! Fortification, Fort, and Fortress are very different things, not different names for the same thing. It's like saying "all toads are amphibians, so all amphibians are toads". I still hold to what I said about the formation name, because what I said there applies to the real life formation too, and if the names in the book are meant to be used the same way, then that means those formations ARE metaphorically named, not literal (though I think now we can agree on that). I just wanted to use the Necrons as an example of one of the many types of enemy that the stealth suits like the Ghostkeel shouldn't do shit against. -- Triacom (talk) 07:38, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
Well you were asking about how come lasguns had something to do with the breach of the defense lines, and I said that those merely affected the infantry - mortars and tank weapons are also used against them, and those are quite capable of breaking stuff, either by killing people and downing the tidewalls (if they were) or actually breaking the stuff. "How did the lasguns keep the defenders pinned when the incoming fire made it very hard for the Guard to advance?" answer: "...sending geysers of rocks and splattered bodyparts down the line. Yet on came the Astra Militarum...fusillades of lasgun shots streaked out, a saturation fire that forced the Tau Strike teams to duck behind their walls, not even daring to return the shots" - this narrates a use of a "Supressive Fire!" order, which was accomplished after the part where they breach the second line and thus, with less men, which makes the "massed lasgun fire" of the previous part all the more deadly. The line can be pinned yet the guard would still recieve a lot of dakka from the line behind that. "When did I claim that the buildings were a barrier?" You say you didn't need to clarify that there were buildings behind the walls, but I'm not following; is there a problem with those buildings or something? "If they were meant to retreat..." - "The plan was for them to deliver a hard counter strike and then...get within the defensive lines" p.42, that's a retreat. "why they didn't retreat?" - "The Tau RETREAT was once again blocked", in the same page, further confirming it was a retreat. Razorsharks are Strike fighters, meaning they can dogfight good enough. A Valkyrie is more of a transport gunship and those don't really need to dogfight, their slow speed allowing them to merely turn around to face the enemy, but also makes them less agile. I did a little research and, according to the J-CATCH program, helicopters (and I'd say VTOL craft too) are very dangerous against fixed-wing craft unless these can attack at their usual long range and high altitude. Thus, I'm saying that Razorsharks can shake it better and win when using their seeker missiles, but the Valkyries are only limited by their lower dakka (Ordnance type of the Hellstrikes forcing snapfires, and 1 BS3 shot isn't reliable against disruption-assisted jinking). A Vendetta with half a dozen lascannons, now that'd be another story. About Air Caste pilot skill, I find it amazing that a well trained human can compete with something pretty much bred to pilot, but I guess it's a case of training vs skill, and now that you tell me it was just Razorsharks it doesn't look biased anymore. The imperium should have had the air dominance, I never questioned that (even taking into account that their aircraft design is shit). And when the first line falls the second and third lines are explicitly mentioned to be firing, and that's the first mention of it so either the first line also has "railguns" or the ones from the back lines have both the range and LOS to get the shots. I did take you meant fell as falling to the ground, but climbing over a fallen fortification, which may or not be rubble doesn't sound too hard. And if the fortification is intact yet its assigned troops are dead, then they can scale the wall unopposed. "Marines don't fight battles for no reason" yet the imperium seems to do so. We both agreed that most of this engagement could have been averted had they taken a "bomb it from orbit, mop the survivors" approach. Hell, we even argued they could have virus bombed the place all over again. An important number of marines like to to punch their enemies in the face: Black templars, Scars, Sharks, Minotaurs, anything Blood Angel...I know the Wolves have a lot of tactics as marines they are, but they love punching stuff in the face. Hell, the Ultramarines won't shy away from punching some faces if the codex calls for it. The Ravens do the same, the only difference is that, when the time for punches comes, they like to punch the back of the head with lightning claws after having infiltrated. Why it was them amongst all marines the ones baited into attack? Bad writing, I wanted it to be the Scars, it would have been more believable, if only a little. Pretty much the same way how Severax shouldn't have died. And I like your comparison of fortresses and frogs because that's pretty much what I did, except that I didn't make the last both-ways statement: I called both strongholds and redoubts a fortification the same way you can declare a frog and a toad are pretty simmilar despite their differences, as they're both from order Anura (in fact some toads are more related to frogs than other toads), ergo, almost everything that can croak is indeed a frog. Or like saying everything that can live on earth or water is an amphibian, as I didn't say all fortifications were redoubts but the other way, that all redoubts are fortifications(type). Stronghold vs Fort? Frog vs Toad, pretty much the same thing xD. And about metaphors, they're used in naming the same way they're also used as a narration tool - after all, what I was saying was that why couldn't the names of the book be of similar nature. About Tau stealth, come on man, let the Tau hide from at least the imperial rank and file, they kinda need it, specially when a lot of 40k likes to punch stuf in the face. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 07:11, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, and I pointed out then that the enemy wasn't pinned down, so it wasn't affecting them, not to mention if it's only targeting the enemy then it wouldn't have anything to do with blowing up the walls since the Infantry wouldn't be able to take down the artillery (or if they can they simply chose not to). The only way the lasguns could help with breaching the walls if they did what I mentioned, killing the Tau so they could take the walls. The section you quote isn't even taking place at the time we're talking about, that happens after they get through all of the defensive walls. Oh I see, though I don't get how you're confused. I said that if the walls could move, they'd be moving backwards, and I thought it was obvious that they couldn't keep this blockade going backwards like that because they'd eventually hit the city behind them and wouldn't be able to keep backing away in that formation. Also, while they pin down the Tau there, you can't say it happens earlier when it's not written like that. Yes I was talking about the lines with the retreat, if you look up I said their plan was to attack, hop behind the walls (ie the retreat you mention), then fight until THEY DIE. I asked why they didn't retreat from the walls, because they didn't. The Tau retreat you're talking about was the one where they planned to hop behind the walls, which wasn't the one I was talking about. I did address them getting caught earlier too. Yes they're Strike Fighters, that means they are NOT aerial superiority craft, and it does not mean they're faster than the Valkyries, hell, they're not even super fast craft as they don't even have the Supersonic rule. Valkyries are slow? Since When? They only usually go slow when they're dropping off their cargo, and even then they sometimes don't slow down at all and the soldiers are forced to use grav-chutes to get down, otherwise they're equally as fast as the Razorsharks, and also more maneuverable because they can stop, pivot, then fire on the weaker side or rear armour. Razorbacks can "shake it better"? How exactly? They can win using their seeker missiles? Are you serious? Let's put this into mathhammer for a second, (and we'll assume that both vehicles hit the others front armour), a Seeker missile that hits has a 33% chance of penetrating the target, so you get a 66% chance if both hit, however a single Helstrike missile that hits has about a 75% chance to penetrate (assuming you use the re-roll if it doesn't pen), which is better than if BOTH Seeker Missiles hit the target. I don't know how you can say that the two Seeker missiles are better when ONE Hellstrike missile stands a better chance at crippling a Razorshark than TWO Seeker Missiles have at crippling a Valkyrie. Yes the Tau craft have defensive systems, so do the Valkyries. Honestly I'd figure that the simulations the Tau are supposed to train in (which are supposed to be extremely realistic) would give the Air Caste all of the experience they need, which is just another reason the Taros Campaign isn't very good. Maybe the Air Caste doesn't actually train using simulations? I've never read of how the Air Caste train, so I'm not really sure. Well what I meant by that is Marines aren't supposed to attempt to sieze a location that has no significance to it whatsoever while the important battle THAT THEY SHOULD BE AT happens next door. Actually the Black Templars are one of the smartest groups, newest Codex notwithstanding, most of Helbrecht's tactics it to destroy the enemies longest ranged weapons and get them to come to you, or if they have those prevent them from getting to you as long as possible to tire them out, then hit them with your fresh warriors (not to mention one of their Castellans was actually recruited because he and a bunch of his recruits bravely ran away from some Wyverns after he killed one of them). Hell, in the Third War for Armageddon Helbrecht wins the space battle by using the long ranged weapons on their craft and preventing the massive hulks from closing in, as opposed to what you'd see from somebody like the scars, who would board it or broadside it (in the older WD's, the Third War for Armageddon definitely wasn't won by morons). Aside from that, yes a lot of Marines like the close and personal strategy, however why did the Raven Guard go along with this full frontal assault without any subtlety?, or stop the White Scars? They're supposed to be among the most intelligent of Marines, the least they could do (or maybe I should say the least they should have done) is let then White Scars go firs, THEN come down second when the enemy's revealed itself, which would royally fuck over Farsight's plan. You know, kind of like what they did earlier in the same book? My main thing about the base bit, is there's criteria to be met for something to be a stronghold, or something to be a fort, and the walls don't meet them, so they must be a fortification. I see now that when you said "fort" you were just abbreviating fortification, so I'd agree there, but I still disagree in that are not forts. If you build them up large enough so that you can technically qualify them as walls and the inside a fort, then they're no longer Redoubts. I honestly want to know how many weapons would be affected by the Ghostkeel, and the range on the suit, and how the Tau learned to interact with Machine Spirits despite not believing they exist. That could be an interesting story. -- Triacom (talk) 09:01, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
I'm aware lasguns don't do shit to fortifications, just don't forget there were other things. It pretty much says they used explosives plus lasguns to breach the defense line: I could say lasguns kept them pinned and the explosives literally broke the lines, you could say the lasguns killed the defenders and the imperials scaled the ramparts under mortar cover - it doesn't matter since the result is pretty much the same: line down. We're both guilty of losing objectivity several times, and we must keep in mind we're supposedly proposing explanations of how the things depicted in the book happened, but such proposals aren't set on stone and are little more than conjectures based on other works due to the rather ambigous writing. Several points we have been discussing about could have been solved with "Well it happened, take a guess how", and as long as you can make it work in your mind, you're set man! There are like a billion different ways for stuff to happen, and this book is pretty much the illustration of one of those random chances, instead of the actual most probable outcome, which is "orbital bombs fall, everybody dies". There were better ways, sure they were, this books just doesn't depict those *shrugs*. That been said, it seems there's no problem with those buildings then. And was the Tau plan really to make their last stand then and there, or were they going to fight a little and then retreat to their base? Shadowsun seemed too cautious even some opportunities presented themselves to her, restraining herself to consever some troops for later, even if a "later" wasn't a certain thing. Usual Tau plans are to attack for a while and retreat or "be a bait and wait until we come to the rescue", and it's not like she had troops to spend in last stands. What was her real plan? We don't know, Farsight arrived; maybe that saved her from making a mistake. Or maybe before he arrived she wasn't even going to make a last stand at the fortress, who knows - we didn't get to see that. You know Strike fighters are supposed to dogfight rather nice, right? F-15E and the SuperHornet are strike fighters, and they're no slouches on air combat. Let's make a parentheses here and remember this is all about the fluff - the same way marines are faster and have more stamina than guardsmen yet they both run D6" on the tabletop (and guardsmen can run & gun with orders) or how necrons have no souls but aren't fearless. This is how Razorsharks have extra maneuvering thrusters yet aren't agile, but being strike fighters they get employed in air superiority wings. I mean seriously, those extra maneuvering jets seem to have no effect whatsoever. As for the tabletop analysis, I'm aware of it, I did one too, yet the problem is lack of dakka, as it's either one lascannon shot or one missile, while the Razorshark can fire all its stuff, which is pretty much 2 missiles and six S7 shots, if it closes the range, which isn't too difficult considering its 66" threat range on a 72" lenght table. And tabletop wise, while the Valkyrie can turn around on a whim, it can only do so while hovering, which means it would hit the Razorshark on a 6, but let's assume it's zooming. And even with all their dakka they can't reliably kill each other on one turn. But it may be pointless to try and argue about who is better at air combat, as too many variables affect the outcome (that and the fact I've never seen the Tau not have the air superiority). "Marines aren't supposed to attempt to sieze a location that has no significance" do marines bomb a place and leave? I always see them assaulting the place, bolter & blade in rapid fire range. If the Guard was so worried the battlesuits massed there were going to get the jump on them they should have bombed the place and sent the marines to mop the survivors or something like that. Hmm, but that did kinda hapen: "The Imperial Guard's artillery began to fire barrage after barrage. They had timed their salvos to coincide with the Space Marine assaults". Nope, wait a second, it doesn't explicitly say where they were shooting at so we can't assume they were helping the marines in some sort of bomb-and-mop operation, surely they were shooting at the fortress that they knew it had shields so good not even orbital fire could harm, or shooting blindly near their own dudes advancing through the storm or something. After all, the entire book should have been solved by orbital bombardment + teleports to begin with. Say, I don't see how they couldn't send both terminators to destroy the shield and assault marines to the trap, it's not like their terminators were busy with anything. "The Black Templars are one of the smartest groups" almost everyone will be one of the best/smartest/whateverest dudes when depicted on their own book written by any competent author. Even freaking Angron becomes Shakespeare-deep when written by A.D. Bowden while Perturabo gets reduced to saturday-villain under the pen of John French. Hell, didn't the Tau suddenly became the bestest on these two books?. "Hellbrecht wins the space battle" the humans ALWAYS win the space battle, except against necrons or eldar, that's not unexpected news. Won't deny he is smart, as any chapter master should be. However, say "overzealous nuts who engage the enemy directly that won't use librarians because their founder was pissed" and "use guerrilla tactics to minimize casualties" and guess which description corresponds to the templars and ravens. Which doctrine is smarter? BOTH, as both get shit done. You seem to take the whole "punch stuff in the face" thing as if I was denouncing stupidity or something, but you know the saying: if it works then it ain't stupid. That's one of the reasons people love the templars to begin with - in fact, the part in the book where they leapfrog from gun turret to gun turret to kill more things in zero-g reminded me a lot of them, and I loved it. "The Raven Guard go along with this full frontal assault without any subtlety?" they infiltrate into the site, that's pretty much as subtle as a giant man with jet engines on his back and a chainsword can be. "Or stop the White Scars?" Ravens and Scars make a good Hammer & Anvil team, they ambush shouldn't have been a one sided fight, but they should have at least forced a stalemate. I wanted to see more of Chapter Master Shrike, Uniter of the Imperium. They should had let the Scars go first, like they did earlier indeed, but they kinda send reinforcements later, so...meh. About fortifications, I see redoubts as enclosures that provide refuge, add a fortified building inside and it becomes a stronghold, make it a full blown castle with towers and the like and it's a fortress, and all of them accomplish the mision of defending a territory. That's not saying they're all fortresses, but they are fortifications as according to the definition: "Fortifications are military constructions or buildings (they can even be earthworks) designed for the defense of territories in warfare". I took it as that you disagree with calling them "fortresses", and I wouldn't call them fortresses either, so we're not disagreeing. And the Tau interacting with the machine spirits would be akin to poking buttons on a program to see what it does despite not understanding it - machine spirits have permanence, right? They're not like ork tech that ceases to work when not in ork hands, no? Tau got lots of human military tech to experiment on after Dal'yth. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 07:18, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
All right, I guess I'll write that the Imperials broke through. Yeah there's a lot of ways this could have gone down, however if it's presented in ways that completely go against the characters in the book (whether it's the army or regular people) doesn't that make the specifics worth discussing? When Matt Ward wrote... Anything really, weren't those people justified in questioning how certain things happened, like how Calgar lost an eye and his arms to the Swarmlord, a creature that uses weapons that seem like they're far too large to do something as precise as taking out both his arms and his eye (especially when it was trying to kill him)? When he wrote about Calgar killing the Avatar of Khaine, weren't people justified in asking how? Same when he wrote Draigo taking out Mortarion. Granted in the last example there was a (surprisingly great) audio drama that explained how that went down (and how badly Draigo got his ass kicked), so maybe later we'll have an audio drama fill in the blanks, for better or worse. I'd also figure that since they have strategy training/manuals (and centuries of experience) that tell them what they should do, choosing not to do the smartest action, especially when they do it earlier, is worth pointing out. "Bomb the planet." "We've bombed the planet." "Send the Troops." "We've sent the troops, and they're getting attacked." "Bomb the attackers." "All attackers have been wiped out except a fortress with a minor garrison." THE END. I think it's worth discussing why that didn't happen. It seemed that their main plan was to make their last stand in the desert once they've lost all of their defensive lines, you know, the absolute worst possible place to make their last stand? However there were still no plans to retrieve the Tau stuck on the defensive lines, and indeed none of them make it out alive. What makes me think they wanted their last stand in the desert was the line about how Shadowsun wanted to enter the field of battle herself, but would only do that when she had no more reserves, and she nearly sent in all her reserves during the defensive line struggle, and planned to send in all of them shortly after (based on how it's written). Her plan is made very clear, she wants to buy enough time to get Aun'Va to safety, so attacking the Imperials in open battles (because every battle besides the one at the ruins was open) was counter-intuitive. I never said they're shit at dogfights, I did say that their main role wasn't to secure the air-space. If they're really meant to be put in air superiority wings, I question the mentality of the Tau. Maybe they went against random Xenos who had much worse fighter craft, but if they're up against the Imperium, they've first got Lightnings to worry about, then the Valkyries (which are also different fluffwise, I'm pretty sure they're much more durable) and everything above that is much more armoured than either of those two. If they're meant to secure air-space, then sure while their thrusters would make them maneuverable, their weapon loadouts should render them very ineffective against everything except the Lightnings. To be fair though, that might actually be a failing of the army itself (and while I didn't want to make this point earlier, even the Barracuda is terrible for taking on heavier craft with its default loadout), and this isn't meant to be a "humanity rules" type of thing, but the Imperium has been at war for a very long time, and the Tau have not. Give them a few centuries, and I'm sure they'll create great aircraft, however for some reason they insist on armouring all of their aircraft with cardboard and arming them with (very good) anti-infantry weapons and comparatively few weapons meant to penetrate armour. They've had a few battles against the Imperium before, and I know they've got guns that can shoot through the armour of a Valkyrie as if it was made of wet paper, which is why I don't get why those guns are only included on Tiger Sharks and Mantas. Maybe in the next Codex they'll get those. Fair point on them losing the Skyfire rule (I didn't know that they couldn't get it unless zooming) however when you say you've never seen the Tau not have air-superiority, are you talking about tabletop, fluff or both? If it's the tabletop, I'm going to guess that's due to the huge amount of Skyfire in the army rather than their planes taking out other craft, and if it's the fluff, would you mind pointing out where it's entirely due to their planes? Most of the time I've seen it they've had a lot of ground support helping the aircraft, and for some reason the opposite just isn't legal, in that the Tau are the only army allowed to support their aircraft in the fluff because... I don't know (for example Hydras would easily make mincemeat of anything less than a Tigershark, and even concentrated fire should down a Tigershark). Marines bomb a place and leave all the time. They did it to the orbital stations, they did it to the AA turrets, they do it to Ork Space Hulks, regular Space Hulks (in fact it's their go-to method when a Space Hulk is somewhere it shouldn't be and they have no barges on hand), the original way they dealt with the World Engine was exactly that, the way they deal with a Necron Flagship was exactly that, it's not an uncommon tactic. The Imperial Guard didn't shell the place the Marines were attacking, look a little farther in that paragraph: "The intense shelling laid down a moving carpet of explosions, the firepower clearing a path for the oncoming ground forces." They can't be helping the Marines because they had no incoming ground forces, everything the Marines had was incoming from the air, but of course this still makes no sense because they couldn't be shelling inside the shield, just in front of it, however if they did that, they'd have killed the Tau who ambushed them in the storm. There's also this: "the troops could not see the massive explosions from the artillery fire that continued to pass over them..." On the very next paragraph so they were definitely firing in front of the Guard, and not anywhere near the marines. That's exactly what I've been saying with the terminators. Actually the Black Templars were written that way in the White Dwarf articles that featured them (these were also based off of battle reports that later were integrated into the chapter). Nothing I mentioned was from a novel, and the way Helbrecht learns is by taking these strategic cues from successful Imperial Guard operations because he's not an idiot. Considering how contested the space battle was over Armageddon (it was way more of a clusterfuck than the ground battle) then it actually is a little surprising, especially when he wins it in an unconventional way, though I'll grant you that them normally winning the space battle isn't much of a surprise (though they did lose it over Vraks). I guess the Tau definitely did become the bestest in these two books (also in the Taros Campaign, though as mentioned before that wasn't very good for multiple reasons). I'd also say that a competent author knows how to write an army to not be perfect in everything. How I'd like to see the Tau written is a force that doesn't initially perform well, they know this, so they do small incursions to see how the enemy fights and what weapons they'll use, then once they think they've gotten a handle on things they attack in full, and do really well. In Kauyon Shadowsun is attacking, from what I understand, the very first Fortress World the Tau have ever come across, yet they have no trouble dealing with the orbital stations or defensive fleets (yes the Imperium does have those) or in taking the planet, which they do in a single day. That's not competent writing, that's just lazy mary-sue making. You're really underselling the Black Templars, just because the Templars are overzealous doesn't mean they can't make solid battle plans, or that they charge in blindly, when the enemy breaks out the heavy armour they've been shown to pull troops back in favour of dreadnoughts or tanks. When the enemy gathers in large numbers, they'll only fight them in defensible positions, they might fight as zealots, but not they're not madmen. Do you know what Black Templar Marshals/High Marshals (aka the guys who have had the most experience in combat) are supposed to do? Stay the fuck out of combat and organize their forces to counter the enemy. If they engages the enemy at all, that means the plan has gotten really fucked up and he had no choice, because putting the commander on the front lines is generally considered, by them, to be a really stupid idea. It's also why most Black Templar High Marshals live long lives (Ludoldus ended up living longer than Dante's entire current lifespan). If you're curious, that was actually their role on the tabletop too. Yes Raven Guard are just as smart (if not smarter) however they go about it in different ways. So what about the Raven Guard in the Drop Pods who are caught in the trap? All right I'm glad we're able to agree on the fortifications, so I'll get back to why we were arguing about it, amid the defensive walls there are strongholds, and I was arguing that those would have to be static defenses. Now we can agree that Redoubts make enclosures, but they're not a stronghold by themselves. A building inside them makes it a stronghold comprised of two pieces, that does not mean they are both individual strongholds making a bigger stronghold, and as far as I know, the Tau don't have mobile buildings like that (I'd also hope that we can both agree that firing platforms are platforms, not buildings). Yeah the Machine Spirits don't go away, but I don't see why they'd work for the Tau (especially the older ones) since the Tau don't know the correct activation rituals. If you're going to say that the activation rituals are just pushing buttons or perform maintenance, I'd like to point out that how they wake up certain machine spirits, or put certain machine spirits to rest includes singing specific songs to them until they wake up/fall asleep. Maybe they could get human defectors to tinker with them, but given how the knowledge of machinery has been guarded pretty closely by the Mechanicus, I doubt the humans would know how to work them either, since even the Imperial Guard need Enginseers to turn their tanks on for them (some of which they used to do by apologizing to them). -- Triacom (talk) 10:23, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
Those are huge events carried out by some of the most important characters in the setting. This is a defense line being overrun by literal nobodies. I'm not aware of where did Shadowsun planned to make her last stand, or if she planned to make one in the first place. Maybe she was going to commit a mistake as she did on Voltoris, and that was going to get the Tau killed on a last stand on Agrellan or something. About the evacuation of the defense lines, dunno, afterwards they evacuate even more Tau using pretty much one sentence: "Within moments, the Tau armies had retreated to set coordinates to meet incoming transports" just like that, seems evacuating the ones fighting on the lines would have been about as difficult, only taking into account the "they're killing us" part, if she was going to evacuate them. Or it could be like you say, that she sent many to die because she's cold, like the time she prematurely labeled a city in Dal'yth as "spent/killed" and Farsight had to enact a EPM-assisted ambush, of all things, to save them. I hate that redhead. If a last stand was going to happen either it should have happened at the lines or retreat from there and fight under the shield, not on the middle of the desert. Attacking the imperium in the open isn't such a bad idea considering they're usually slow-ish, until one remembers they had orbital support, which luckly for them the author forgot. Yes, the aerial superiority role is reserved for the Baracudas, and I don't know why GW is so reclutant to even mention the use of FW models, even after the adoption of the Piranhas. I want Barracuda formations, and I wanted the target adquisition team on the Firestream formation to be a Tetra (wasn't it like that on a previous publication?), but I don't see it happen. And yes, human aircraft everything is very well armoured so the Tau dakka is usually insufficient, which is something they'll need to change on the coming centuries - I did mention the dakka wasn't enough, as it always is, especially on aircraft. Razorsharks being multirole aircraft still have the problem of "what do you mean that tank also flies?" as their S8 overcharge doesn't work against flyers. I mean, I would have thought an airplane armed with autocannons and missiles would have been enough, but AV12 tells me that's not the case. You're right on the point of arming them with railgun variants or something tho. About the times they have air superiority, that's on the fluff yes, and that was Air Caste vs Orks, which probably meant several kinds or aircraft, or the times they give marine planes a run for their money, but it's true that they're usually supporting their airplanes with ground troops and the enemy's ground-based AA is suspiciously absent at the same time. And when I say "bomb and leave" I mean it as in "no infantry was required on the spot", which is what didn't happen on the orbital stations, as the marines jumped around the gun emplacements, planting bombs and killing as they went, which is exceedingly nonsensical as orbital stations are pretty much giant sitting ducks and shouldn't be a problem to the human navy to begin with - solid munitions have infinite range on space, energy weapons hit almost instantly and orbital stations aren't too keen on dodging either. Yes, they should have treated them like space hulks and torpedoed the stations, but no, polish those claws boys, in we go! There's always that "something" that is forcing them to get close and personal, like the time it was Necrons vs Minotaurs, or the Blood Angels and space hulks. Admittedly, those are rarities where the normal tactics proved ineffective...but those are the stories that get narrated, mainly because most other stuff isn't "news", as it's the norm. Hmm, I suppose the artillery didn't help the marines because we would have seen it on 'The Coiled Spring', but the way it's written confused me, as the marines were indeed part of the ground force (Scars + DS Ravens). And the human armada beats the hive fleet over Macragge and the black-something fortresses over Cadia, few things give more bragging rights than that xD. And I'd like to see the Tau the same way you do. I accept that Agrellan fell in one day because Shadowsun pretty much went unbound and spammed Riptides at the end - she went full That Girl there, I read it and chuckled. Prefectia, however, didn't fall in one day. That one was Agrellan, on WD:Kauyon it lasted months even after the marines left, and when they were there several days are mentioned to pass. And I'm not underselling the Templars, all the contrary - Their zeal works so well I'm saying their effectiveness matches the Raven'scomplex plans (maybe re-read the previous comment), because here's the thing: there are no dumb space marines. The Minotaurs are always punching stuff in the face and they're also almost always winning. I'm not saying the Lamenters need to start punching things in the face, but victory needs no explanations and defeat allows none. What have you got against punching stuff in the face? It's not a dumb thing to do, maybe that's why there are so many mentions of it. About the fortifications, Tau don't have any strongholds, and if those are mentioned then just picture the closest thing one could do with tidewalls that could resemble the most to an actual stronghold that also doesn't violate the "Tau hate static stuff" point, and say the author was using methaphor/ignorance/exaggeration and called that thing a stronghold. Woah, hold a second, a Leman Russ cannot be started without a Techpriest? Do the billions of guardsmen memorize a lullaby for their lasguns or do they wait individually for tech support to get to them and turn their lasguns on? JK, some things aren't so complex or rithualized for sake of logistics and simplicity - the Catechism of the Autoculus is pretty much "lever forward + button = ignition" with mysticism all over it, and guardsmen do mess around with their tech. The Last Chancers do it, and it's not like they were also techpriests or something. Sure, it's heresy, care to inform the Catachan, Commissar? IG sarges are willing to let some things slide if it means the tank can be started again. The Tau figured out how to travel faster than light, surely they can figure out how to fool a lasgun - say they emit a signal similar to the ones emitted by other imperial tech to engage the friendly fire safeties or that they flood the enemy receptors with static or something - their disruption abilities come from captured equipment, which is how the Vindicare's spy mask was unaffected by it: because they haven't caught any Vindicares . -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 21:53, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
Ah yes, the famous Battle for Orar's Sepulchre, one of the greatest events in the entirety of 40k. If you know which one that is immediately upon hearing it (somehow I'm going to doubt anybody will) then you can claim it was a huge event. It's certainly written as if she was going to make a last stand, since if she had a retreat plan it was never stated or hinted at. The retreat you mention is after all of the Tau on all of the defensive walls were killed. She labeled a city on Dal'yth as spent/killed? Mind pointing out when, because I must have missed that, and it also goes completely against the Tau's doctrine. I agree wholeheartedly with that sentiment about the last stand, and I'm not even sure how they got away, did the Imperials just stand there while all of the Tau ran away, or did all of the Tau get superspeed for that one paragraph? Granted I don't expect them all to get killed, but the book makes it seem like the fighting just stopped and they were allowed to leave without opposition (kind of like what happens with Longstrike, who should have been dead or injured). I'm not sure if they had a formation like that involving the Tetra, though that would make more sense. Oh, well I can definitely see them having air superiority against the Orks, since there's not usually too many Ork aircraft, and the ones they do have usually aren't very good, I'm glad we otherwise agree on the aircraft though. Usually when they give Marine planes a run for their money they've got drone turrets or some scanner network that allows all of the planes to target the Space Marine ones, so it's not just aircraft on their own. Oh, I see what you mean with the bombing, the only time I can really think of then is the Third War for Armageddon, it was one of the tactics Helbrecht used, aside from that, I recall them favouring that option when it's available, for example a Battle Barge versus a Space Hulk, all of the other times they'll jump in, plant charges, then jump out because it's the second best option. Yeah their fight against the orbital stations didn't make much sense, especially when you consider how khan and Shrike would have gotten over there. Again, if it was terminators being teleported in, then out after they've placed their charges, that makes sense (aside from why they didn't just shoot it) but sending in regular marines to bomb it? Why didn't the shields keep them out if they were able to resist the shots from the ships (yes the shields are supposed to repel those kind of things)? At least with the Necron fight they tried to engage the Necrons at range, it just didn't stay that way because the Necrons had to close the distance since their own weapons are relatively short ranged. Well in any case, the artillery was definitely written to be flying over the heads of the Guard, so what's it hitting? If it's hitting the shield, that doesn't really make sense since they know by now of the Dues ex Machina generator, and if it's hitting in the storm, shouldn't it pulverize the Tau there? Oh, my mistake, I just mixed up Agrellan and Prefectia. Now the reason I stated that about the Templars is because I thought you were only selling them as a force that charged towards their enemy to rip them apart, when there's actually very few stories in which that happens. I'm not saying the tactic of preferring close combat when you're a massive killing machine and wear armour that can withstand almost anything is stupid either, I was trying to point out that there's more to them. That's right the Tau don't have strongholds, however because of this I have to assume they built them because that's what the book says they did. I can't assume they're mobile because they've given no evidence of that, and given how the book contradicts so much already, why is it really a surprise that it writes the Tau as using a tactic they're supposed to hate? You know you joke about the Guardsmen memorizing songs, but the Uplifting Primer actually does include litanies the Guardsmen are supposed to say to their guns when doing various things with them (though I doubt they'd actually do anything, aside from the rare case of a gun somehow being able to fire without any ammo or if it's working when it's in no condition to work). I also thought it wouldn't be a surprise that they need Enginseers to get them anywhere, in fact there's quotes of officers mentioning how they wouldn't have gotten anywhere if it wasn't for the Enginseers since the tanks can just randomly get really upset (and starts using the computer to threaten the crew), and an Enginseer will run over, apologizing which calms it down. Pretty much everything involving machines has mysticism, however pissing off a Machine Spirit is pretty dangerous, just look at what happened to the Orks who attacked the Crimson Fists. The attack woke up a Land Raider (and I do mean "woke up", as in the Land Raider was sleeping), and by itself, it went on a cross-country massacre of the Orks before attacking a full Ork Warband, an annihilated the whole group (the Land Raider also yelled out its own battle cries through its speakers). I'd be really surprised if they were able to do what you say, since the weapons the Cadians are armed with are different to the defenders of Agrellan and Prefectia, since each Imperial Guard army seems to have their own version of the lasgun, all constructed from separate STC's. As far as disrupting it goes though, I'm still not sure how that works given that a lot of the gear they have works off of the user, rather than a computer. Providing inaccurate coordinates or gumming up targeters? Sure, but that shouldn't mean the user can't figure out what you're doing and shoot you anyway. -- Triacom (talk) 10:16, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
Exactly, Orar's! Not that specific relic fight, but the event of a duel of the tops dogs like them, as in killing an Avatar...back when it was something other than bragging rights. Given how the Tau extraction of so many forces happened in only a few lines it doesn't surprise me the lack of buildup on any evacuation plan, if there was such a thing. She labels the city of Dal'Ryu as a spent force on the "Fists of Dal'Ryu". Indeed they should have had it difficult to extract, especially after the Skitarii ambush which was completely ignored. The Tetra formation was in the Apocalypse book, I think, back when there were priority rolls or something like that. And yes, I'm aware the article about th Templars spending the day stabbing stuff is just fun, I was just trying to point out how rushing forward could also be the product of a well thought plan. The Tau "stronghold" I thought it to be closer to the word "portable", the same way Aegis lines are referred to as "instant fortresses" - I just assumed the Tau could do the same using the Tidewalls, and at least one element is described to be raising, not unlike a Tidewall element rises to unleash troops hidden under it on WD:Kauyon. About the guardsman training covering the technical aspects of their lasguns, I thought it came with basic instructions about field manteinance as to please its machine spirit, lest it may rebel and abandon him on the heat of battle, which I took as a mysticized field manteinance training to avoid failures. The quotes about the Enginseers getting the tanks in shape I took them as pretty much that - getting the tanks back in shape after some failure, not merely turning the engine on. Pissing off a MS can be dangerous not only to the enemy, but to the offending guardsman, as it could cause some malfunction/Gets Hot! and place his life in danger. And the very concept of a STC means the core design remains the same, not to mention some lasgun patterns are available on a lot of worlds. Against simpler stuff that doesn't rely on computers to work properly (eg: jamming iron sights), the Holophoton countermeasures range from fake friendly signatures engaging safety locks to mere disco lights forcing you to snap fire at it (even with their Occulobe, marines suffer from blindness on the tabletop, explained by REDACTED BY THE COMMISSARIAT). Meanwhile, the Ghostkeel Electrowarfare suite is more about jamming scanners and wearing better the stealth provided by its companion drones. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 02:56, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
Well I think you get what I mean, though I don't get why you're holding the Space Marines above the Tau, fighting a craftworld is important, yet fighting several of the greatest leaders of the Tau Empire on a planet they have no way of escaping isn't important? I'm not sure if Shadowsun actually had a plan in Mont'ka or if she's just making shit up as she goes along, don't get me wrong her precognition in kauyon was a little ridiculous, but this fight just seems to follow the Space Wolf strategy of "make it up as we go along." Oh, you're right about her writing off those defenders. FUCK THAT. That's so completely wrong. Fair point on the Templars then. But where in the book are we given any indication that the strongholds and walls are portable? Also would you mind pointing out where the defensive walls were described to rise? Because the only time I see that is when they get through all of them to the Tidewall. Yeah it does come with basic instructions for pleasing the machine spirits, though that does include singing to it. Fair enough about the Enginseers, I've been looking through and that quote I mentioned is from an Enginseer trying to calm down an uppity machine spirit. The Imperial Guards various armies use different STC's for their lasguns, yes while they all make the same thing, I doubt they'll all have the same process for doing it (presumably that's why some lasguns are bolt action). Also I'd figure that the "disco lights" would make it pretty easy for them to be targeted by artillery, and how does it fool guns that don't have safeties or whose safeties are hard locked? As for the Ghostkeel, its ability to jam targeters (not scanners) is why I'm a little confused as to how it works on things that don't have targeters. -- Triacom (talk) 03:39, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
The conflict as a whole is important, but you know campaigns are things so big that several details will escape explanation. How did Shadowsun escaped certain death at the hands of an assassin? Well, she had to do this, and that, and hope for X...how did the nameless many breached the defense lines? A mighty assault. Yeah, but ho-Mighty Assault, pictured in any way you decide it works. Keep in mind I'm not condoning the fact that the author doesn't explain many other things that are indeed important, like how come they retreat so easily, or giving a decent excuse of why would the imperials send marines to assault Farsight's encampment instead of more viable solutions, to name a few amongst the many. "Making up as we go" I don't know, but any plans she had (if any) certainly began with "this fight wasn't supposed happen what do I do now". About writing off the defenders, I know right xD? It's as if that book tried to put Farsight on a higher pedestal by not only idolizing him, but also by demonizing everyone else (which is why I took it as if it was Enclave propaganda, or meant to be read as if the reader is being schooled in the Enclaves or something). She takes away half of the war council, doesn't talk to Farsight and has pretty much an Iron Warrior's kindness - the book puts it as if she's not even angry, that's her regular self. However, between her Enclaves depiction and her omniscient WD:Kauyon one, I'd take the former every time. About Farsight's encampment, it read as if he, an unexpected newcomer suddenly had an encampment, which would have been impossible to plan forward to give him (unless...), unless such things are as easy to set up as ADLs. And I was talking about the line "the actual gun emplacements rose up on lifts", not walls, on p.86, similar to "To Torovac's horror, the structures he had taken for static defenses rose upwards and moved away on anti-grav fields" on WD:Kauyon p. 34. As for bolt action lasguns, come on, those are a rarity - I thought Cadian organization and weapon patterns were pretty much the general IG model. Oh, and change the line "disco lights" to "disco lasers", as those have minimal disipation and wouldn't give your position away (unless you use IRL night vision I guess). Example, they shine a laser on a guardsman's eyes so he flinches and his shots are way off (snapfire). Didn't communicate with the lasgun's machine spirit, didn't jam the mechanism itself, it just shone a bright light on his eyes. About blast & template weapons not being able to shoot because they can't make snapshots, dunno, maybe the guardsman is trained to not blind fire a flamer due to the risk of literal friendly fire. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 18:43, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
The problem is when they add details that don't quite work, or are confusing as to how they're written. If they said that the lasguns kept the Tau pinned while the tanks blew apart the tidewall, then that would fix everything. I wouldn't be arguing that they had static defences and walled off a desert for no reason, and we'd know for sure how the lasguns helped them break through. If they left out that bit about the lasguns there also wouldn't really be an issue since it would be obvious then what them breaching the walls with tanks would mean. That's a fair point on the Enclaves book, as in it putting him on a pedestal higher than everyone else is a far point, however it's still presented as fact, and not the biased kind of writing that it should have if it was just showing their view since in that book, Farsight is perfect in nearly every way. I'd also take that version over her "just as planned" self, though it's surprising that version ever became a Commander. Wait, what's confusing about the buildings he used? They said in the book he used a training facility (even though that's not how those look or work AT ALL) that he tricked the marines into attacking, so what's confusing about that? Oh, well then those gun emplacements are well after the defensive walls. If you find any mention of the defensive walls being mobile then please let me know. Cadian organization isn't the standard for the other Imperial Guard, and neither are their lasguns, just as all Guard armies get their lasguns from different STC's, they have different organizations. Sure there are some areas in which they have common ground, for example the lasguns give the same performance even though they're different patterns and the regiments and companies across the Guard are used to tell how many Guardsmen there are, but otherwise there's not a lot that they have in common with each other. I guess that works for the lasers then? It still seems like it should be easy to get around, and that by doing it should make them a bigger target. -- Triacom (talk) 21:06, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
Well that's where the reader's previous knowledge comes in to patch the writer's ambiguity, ie: fix it yourself. I mean, it's not like the lasgun's battlefield role is a mystery. As for more confuse settings, like why was there a defense line, thread carefully and consult second opinions. About GW's statements of the only certain cannon being on the rulebooks, I'd doubt that, since the fluff in rulebooks are some of the most biased texts I've read (ratlings killing iron warriors as if it was the easiest thing ever, even though they have the same BS4), even more so on supplements/warzones. On the Enclaves supplement few things are presented as fact and more are glorified opinions, uncertain assumptions and biased memories. And if Kais, which has as many mental issues as John Rambo made it to Commander, then Shadowsun sure can too. I meant the buildings he really was in, not the barrack surrounded by fake gunrigs he used as a decoy...or did he come from the same barracks after marines deployed onto it and the thing basically exploded (I'm just asking)? And about the defensive structures, I did made the assumption of "Torovac saw defense structures being mobile, then ALL Tau defense structures of that kind (direct enemy combat, ground defense) are mobile, as immobile Tau structures of that kind aren't supposed to be a thing". We see Gunrigs mentioned as cannon emplacements, then, all cannon emplacements are gunrigs, unless they have a different purpose like AA/Anti-orbit, which we don't know besides complex-sized and optional shield/cloak. As for 'Cadians, standard issue and you', consider "the influence of Cadian regiments can be felt on worlds in every Segmentum, influencing combat doctrine and logistics. Cadian Interior Guard forces employ standardised Departmento Munitorum equipment and vehicles, allowing them to seamlessly transfer into the service of the Imperial Guard, and there are only a few types of regiment that cannot be raised from Cadian forces", which mainly means their recruits are good, but also means there is an attempted standard, and Cadia adheres to it. Notice I say "attept" as the Imperium's size makes a true standard impossible. It's like saying all cars on earth are similar, and they are - 4 wheels, 1 axis of symmetry, crystal windows, thus, a common countermeasure for most cars are spikes. Now replace "cars" with IG and "spikes" with Tau stealth (IG has one axis of symmetry, lol). Easy to get around? I honestly don't know, the next time I'm throwing things at some invisible dude shining light on my eyes and throwing stuff back at me I'll let you know -oh wait, that's called "Talk:Damocles Crusade" xD! -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 21:54, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
So what you mean is I should just assume the I know what they mean on something that has multiple definitions? Maybe it's just me but that doesn't sound like the best of ideas. Would you mind pointing out the parts that aren't fact in Farsight Enclaves? Because from what I can see most if not all of it is presented as truth. Last I checked with kais he didn't just decide "THEY ALL HAVE TO DIE!" Without considering or attempting diplomacy though, and I'm also pretty sure he never abandoned the people he was supposed to protect. What building he was really in? Isn't that building the same as the barracks? What other building was anywhere near there, or are you talking about when he was in the Command Center? Also when did the building explode? If having mobile defenses was normal for the Tau, why was everyone so shocked when these walls moved? Influence isn't the same as "modeled after" because, while they follow structure for things like their regiments, they have different recruitment, tactics, training, officers, etc. That cars example though could also easily apply to lasguns, if we take all cars, for example both gas powered and electric. Wait a minute, I know that we couldn't find a reason why it would work on artillery, but wouldn't making that big of a display just make you a massive target for orbital bombardment? I guess "orbital bombardment solves everything" could also be another way for summing up this conversation. -- Triacom (talk) 01:28, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
What I mean is that the only thing left up to us is to interpret and assume whatever we need to keep it in line with previous fluff, ie pick from those multiple definitions the one that fits the best. "It is said that Farsight bested the beast in single combat, though none were there to witness it", or "Within a single training cycle, Shoh was getting more range and accuracy out of his battlesuit’s heavy rail rifle than Shas’vre Ob’lotai himself" both are propaganda, "Given the depth of the oxide residue, that ancient civilization must have included several artificial cities the size of mountain ranges" is the same as IRL scientists saying Mars was a forgeworld by merely looking at it, "in the minds of the Tau citizenry, the ‘Molochites’ were a dangerous new race of aliens and little else. O’Shovah, for his part, held suspicions closer to the truth – that the grotesque creatures were not of the physical dimension at all" because he just has to know, right? And that's how Kais exited the training, as inmediately after the game he was pretty much "muh PTSDs" and Puretide had to teach him how to be a balanced commander, as all he wanted was to kill them all by himself, a Monat, ergo, Puretide is the best teacher xD. And I thought the place where the holograms were all but exploded ("rockets crashed into the Tau's decoy gun emplacements and exploded", and I'd think the explosions were meant to have a bid radius, otherwise it'd have been useless as they were a ring on the outermost section of the battle), but maybe a Fire Caste Academy can whitstand it, so they came from it, dunno. "If having mobile defenses was normal for the Tau" is it normal for the Tau to have defenses in the first place? Here on Agrellan they had gun emplacements, but on Dal'yth the AA was the Air caste force. Dunno, as you mentioned, they are supposed to be making changes to their military as the time goes on, and this is one of those changes. "That cars example though could also easily apply to lasguns" yes, that's the point. And a laser isn't meant to be traceable except by the one it hits, it's not like a searchlight on a foggy day and if it worked akin to orbital bomb beacons, the ones on the bullseye would be the ones targeted by it, as it happens with IRL laser guided bombs. Blinding someone isn't a big display if you hit the pupils. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 14:42, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
I can agree with their earlier statements, especially the Daemon bit, it's what I meant when I said earlier that the characters are privy to information that the reader is, just because they are. I thought the missiles hitting the decoy guns were just krak missiles, which have a very small blast radius, because frag missiles don't have the power needed to reliably wreck them, not to mention frags don't have a big blast radius anyway. Also if the place was destroyed by the missiles, then the real guns would have been wrecked too. I think the problem is the marines forgetting that they had missiles as soon as the decoys were destroyed, since those would have easily taken out a lot of the battlesuits. It's actually not normal for the Tau to have defenses at all (with the exception of orbital stations) aside from fire and air caste (remember Aun'Shi? This not having defenses bullshit is what very nearly got him killed), they're really proud of their mobility and so base pretty much all of their offensive and defensive power on them. Is it really making a change to their military when previous campaigns are backed up for this new shit? We're effectively in the same spot in the timeline, almost as if the Tau can remember how the previous editions were fought and so can counter the enemy just perfectly. I know that the Tau's technology is very sophisticated, but I really question whether or not it's capable of doing all that and not being seen, when there's many ways we can view lasers (it's not like Cadians are short on equipment either). -- Triacom (talk) 21:11, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
I thought the rockets were seeker/battlesuit missiles and the decoy emplacements were explosive booby traps (like those red barrels on videogames), but maybe the rockets were the imperial's - maybe it came from IG's rocket artillery. It kinda makes more sense that way, but it's still a little vague to my taste because the ones mentioned carpeting the landscape with missiles usually are the Tau. I don't understand what do you mean with "previous campaigns are backed up for this new shit", but the Tau have had 250+ years to learn from the imperium since the Damocles crusade in 742M41. Agrellan falls on 757.999M41 (wtf does 757 means?), and 3+ months have passed, to technically it's M42 here. And without dust in the air you wont be able to see a laser unless it's pointed at your eyes, not even at night. Dust? But we're in a desert! Shhh! Then try making up another way to make a guardsman have less accuracy, can't be too hard. After all, the regular Cadian isn't too well equipped, as they were dying of rad poisoning by the end of the book. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 00:18, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
But that would mean the Tau blew up their own emplacements before the Imperials got there, what purpose would that serve? If they were the Imperial Guard, why were they able to attack and target the turrets so well, and why did they only destroy the turrets without damaging the rest of the area (like the real turrets just below them)? By what I said I mean previous good campaigns are retconned into non-existance so that we get kauyon and Mont'ka. I'm not sure what that number means either. There's technology that lets you see lasers though, that's what I was talking about, and the usual Cadians aren't short on equipment (like the hostile command squad, which they should be using already given the planet they're on) since they're supposed to be the best of the best, and defending one of the most vital planets in the Imperium. -- Triacom (talk) 04:51, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
Well it reminded me of videogame red barrels xD. If the usual Cadians were equipped that well, they'd all have night vision, would survive in that rad wasteland and so on (ie: they wouldn't have suffered the sandstorm as much as they did, remember gas mask don't protect against radiation). And what was retconned away? Besides necrons. Cadians aren't the best of the best (that's Cadian Kasrkin, absent here), but the best of the many. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 15:38, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
And if the rules reflected the Catachan properly, they'd all have T4 (or Feel No Pain), Infiltrate, and their weapons would get Ignores Cover as standard (the rules aren't really supposed to reflect the individual armies that well), but the only way we'll get that is if they make a separate army list for them, like the Death Korps for example. Also the Kasrkin are supposed to be a part of the Cadians, they're not a separate army. Yeah there's not too much they could have done against the radiation, unless they had Chimeras and other transports they could have used that they're supposed to have. As for the retcons, how many times has the Damocles Crusade been done now? Every time it's done differently with a different outcome, not to mention every time the Tau fight the Imperium in general the fight seems to get retconned so it can be done again later (and worse). -- Triacom (talk) 17:47, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
Whaaaat? Cadians aren't above human toughness or something like that. In fact, the thoughest/strongest characters from the codex are actually Catachans (they used to have nice rules, I want those back) because they're Rambos, while Cadians are SAS, Green Berets and that kind of special forces. Krell should be a bit more durable, but that's it. Cadians are fine like their formation depicts them (above average accuracy and commanders), if anything I'd have included more psykers. Funnily enough, the Cadian WT table and relics are more suited for Krieg tho. And Kasrkin aren't an army, they're merely Cadia's Stormtrooper equivalent, being loved by all because they recruit from Whiteshields as opposed to the elitist Schola Progenum. And speaking of radiation, maybe the Steel legion was the best regiment to send, being mechanized infantry from a polluted world and all. And aren't these Warzone books sequels to the 2013 WZ:Damocles instead of reboots? But what can we expect when even a bigger thing like the 13th BC got retconned. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 21:25, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
You misread what I wrote, I said CATACHANS would be T4 or have Feel No Pain, I never said that the Cadians are tougher than them. Yeah I agree that Cadians should have more Psykers, they're supposed to have more on average from being right outside the Eye of Terror after all. Steel Legion probably would have been better, however given the war that was going on in Armageddon (unless they want to have the story progress and get Thraka thrown off it AGAIN) sending them to fight the Tau makes only marginally more sense than sending Cadians. I honestly can't tell what's a sequel any more and what isn't, at the very least they've done the Damocles Crusade three times now, four if these new books are meant to replace the older one. -- Triacom (talk) 23:57, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
Whoops, I did. Yeah, base FnP(6)/Purchasable character FnP wouldn't unbalance the things too much. Add the 'Whoops, sorry sir' rule, stealth(forest)/infiltration and it's allright. And Gazakull did leave Armaggedon, but on his own terms and the fight still rages on. Krieg and Cadia are the most numerous guards, so it made sense one of them was available (shold have been Krieg, tho). These two books don't replace anything by being sequels, so technically they are the only thing not retconned right now. Let that sink in. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 07:27, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
I thought Thraka left to go elsewhere for no reason, as in he wasn't chased away by Yarrick and Helbrecht (and as far as I remember he actually hasn't left the planet yet). Cadia is a lot more important than Krieg is (and the Death Korps) though, if they had sent less troops and mostly fought alongside others then it would make more sense, but to commit several million to a planet you know is radioactive without giving them the proper equipment? That's more than a little ridiculous. Now I'm not 100% sure if these books are replacing anything, though I think they are, not only because of the warzone they're a part of, but because I can't find anything in their timeline about the previous Damocles book, so I think it is retconned (or maybe I just can't find it). -- Triacom (talk) 08:13, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
Oh, that was also retconned away? Dammit no more Yarrick & Helbrecht road trip. Yeah, I was suggesting Korps precisely for that reason: they are expendable (even more so than regular IG) and they know it, not to mention they're used to polluted landscapes. These new books reference the previous Damocles book (WZ:Damocles 2013, from my perspective) by mentioning some events from the fall of Agrellan. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 16:58, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
I guess they reference events? They do it so casually that I'm really unsure of whether or not they're meant to be sequels, after all they might take some events from that (the ones they liked) and then just ignore the rest, which seems to be the go-to style for all the new books, like the new Warzone Fenris books. -- Triacom (talk) 17:53, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
Haven't read those, but I hear everyone is a wolf lord now. At least these two WZ don't contradict anything from Damocles 2013 (saying the evac of Prefectia felt eerily similar to Agrellan's and the like). -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 23:19, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
Well I think we've finally hit the end of this discussion, so I'm going to make some adjustments to the main page based on what we've discussed here and if you disagree we can easily reopen it. -- Triacom (talk) 00:19, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
Thraka wasn't retconned. Instead, his plot actually progressed. He left the planet because the planet got bogged down in the storm of fire (that's not a retcon. This was always the reason he left) and Helbrecht and Yarrick chased after him. In his own supplement, the plot actually progressed to where they caught him. If I recall correctly, they were actually winning, but then a warpstorm happened and he escaped. He sees this as divine intervention by Gork and Mork. He then went on to conquer Octavius and kick some butt in the Octavius Wars against the Tyrannids for a bit before once again leaving after the Tyrannid situation was a bit more under control, allegedly due to a vision from Gork and Mork. And he ended up... somewhere but I forget where. TiamatRoar (talk) 23:32, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
Originally all of the Ork forces on both the planet and in space were defeated, the Orks on the planet were in the process of being exterminated, and Thraka fled because if he didn't he would have been killed, and he was being chased down by the Black Templars and Yarrick. In the new lore, none of that has happened (and he left because he thought he was told to), so it IS a retcon. -- Triacom (talk) 00:19, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

What actually happened in Mont'ka?[edit]

Tau Propaganda

All right, I'm making this section mostly to try and start an interesting discussion; I can easily argue that Mont'ka is Tau propaganda, since it's so fucking stupid in how everything works, and I'm curious what it would be like if the author wasn't too busy (perfectly) sucking off one of the armies. Personally I'd say the Imperium arrives in force, quickly takes control of space battle while taking a few losses, then dominates the ground war with Space Marines acting as fast attack units, going down to blow up shield generators and the Imperial Guard acting as a siege force, what with all of the artillery they should have had. The Tau, not being stupid, would do hit-and-run tactics and rely on stealth fields when resting to try and make themselves less of an easy target both for the Imperial Guard to shoot and the navy to bombard while they wait for reinforcements. Eventually Farsight would mount a rescue mission, arriving too late to save Aun'Va from the one Culexus assassin (and only the one assassin) the Imperium deployed to kill them, but managing to save Shadowsun and a good portion of her forces, before making a retreat, eventually dropping her and her soldiers off somewhere else (presumably Prefectia), and heading back to his enclave (any of the deaths caused to him or his forces are easily explained as being killed in action against regular Imperial forces, or sacrificing themselves so others could escape). After they've finished their punitive action on that world, the Imperium goes off on their merry way to deal with other threats, and Shadowsun and/or other Etherals come up with the lie of the planet and the Damocles Gulf being on fire forever to explain why they aren't going to expand until they've significantly upped their own tech and tactics since they've seen the smallest of what a pissed off Imperium can do, and they don't plan to be caught off-guard a second time. Also for anyone asking "But where's the killing blow? That's what Mont'ka means." There was no killing blow in the regular book anyway (unless you consider an army losing offscreen without any description as to how as being a killing blow), so it's a moot point. If you have your own thoughts on how the fight would have gone, please post them. -- Triacom (talk) 08:40, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

It is Tau propaganda, as Newerfag pointed out in the Tau talk. The first part sounds nice, but you make it look like Farsight's army is bigger than the half Tau Crusade on Agrellan (it's killier, not bigger), and I kinda liked the way the Imperium sort of gave up on it and poured fire on everything. It'd be nice if there was only one assassin and some of the changs you propose - how could anyone artificially block a space route without using warp stuff anyway? - but that's like, just an opinion, man. As for where was the killing blow, it happened when Farsight arrived to pop several tanks just the way he did on Dal'yth...and that was it. Then again, how many times can you describe a Farsight bomb and not sound repetitive? In the book called Mont'Ka, what was lauded the most was the fact Farsight ended up performing a Kauyon of his own. Anyone looking for a true Mont'Ka should grab the Farsight Enclaves supplement instead of this book. Maybe this is why they don't want to advance the plot? Because they know they wouldn't be able to make it justice. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 18:59, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
Wait a minute, THAT was the Mont'ka? Killing those tanks that didn't actually do anything? Also when I said that Farsight mounts a rescue mission I had meant he showed up to save people rather than fight the Imperium, so he'd have roughly the same fighting force he did in the regular book (as in very small and made up of tough units) barring the size shifting ability they had there. As far as him taking on the Eversor goes, he does get into a one-on-one fight with a heavily injured assassin (minus two wounds) and WITHOUT his shield generator. There's no way he should have survived that. Even crunchwise, Farsight causes 0.444 Wounds on the assassin, whereas the Eversor causes 3.851 back on him (in the turn he charges, which he did in the battle and no shield generator as well as being part of an execution force giving him preferred enemy), on top of this, the Eversor strikes first, so in the second turn he'd cause 1.805 Wounds. Even if we are extremely generous and give Farsight his shield, AND put him up against an Eversor with only one Wound, the Eversor causes 3.7305 Wounds before he is killed, and when he explodes he'll cause 0.3333, bringing it up to 4.0638 so no matter what Farsight is FUCKED in gameplay, let alone how he should have been grappled and torn limb from limb in the story during that one-on-one fight. -- Triacom (talk) 19:50, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
Yup, that was the Mont'Ka. The book doesn't say it but, despite the heavy casualties® he inflicted on the humans it was actually a rather unsuccessful attack that merely allowed the Tau to regroup and, eventually, retreat. When you say "would mount a rescue mission" are you narrating or proposing? Because if that's your definition of a rescue mission then that's exactly what Farsight did allright. On the supplement it was manifest that a Mont'Ka fails if the critical enemy isn't killed or if the attack stalls and loses momentum, and that's exactly what happened here - you could name the book "Failed Mont'Ka" and it'd make more sense lol. About the Eversor, damn, I forgot about the PE and the malfunctioning shield (but wasn't it repaired/replaced en route?), but that'd set the number as high as 8*((2/3)+(2/9))*(2/3+2/9) = 6.32 wounds with the power sword (+1A, Frenzon, FC & PE), or a rather survivable 3.16 with the shield, and the explosion causes 0.222. As in, I don't know where you got those numbers. It also comes to mind that Farsight was inside a unit, so that's where the needed attacks (and overwatch) came from. Had he gone for Farsight (ie a challenge) the other dudes wouldn't have died. All in all, both of them performed as was expected, with the Eversor going all Wolverine on them, bursting through the wall, shouting WRYYY, jumping on the suits, surfing on a drone and conveniently killing only the disposable members of the unit, with the "I killed a Warboss" Farsight getting a lucky shot and a lucky slash, all Taumurai style. I mean, Aun'Shi pretty much killed a Waagh by himself 300-style too, yet a regular Chaplain could end him. Fluff thrives on lucky dice. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 20:39, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
All right, I'll break down the numbers though I can say to start off we're actually both wrong on them (I think we both messed up Preferred Enemy).
The Eversor has 4 base attacks, he charges, increasing those by 3 thanks to Frenzon, and he has a pistol + Power sword for 8 attacks.
He hit's on 3's (0.6666% of attacks hit) causing 5.3333 hits, preferred enemy allows half of his misses to be re-rolled (since only 1's and 2's missed), adding an additional 0.8888 hits.
Furious Charge adds +1 to his Strength, so he Wounds on 3's, causing 4.148 Wounds, half of the failed rolls are re-rolled (same reason), adding 1.3827 Wounds for a total of 5.5307 Wounds.
No armour save allowed to Farsight. Farsight is now dead without his shield generator.
Now let's look at turn 2, the Eversor has 5 attacks, hitting on 3's, causing 3.3333 hits. Half of the misses are re-rolled, adding an additional 0.5555 hits.
No Furious Charge this time, so he wounds on 4's, causing 1.9444 Wounds, one third of his misses are re-rolled, adding an additional 0.324 Wounds, for a total of 2.2684 Wounds.
If Farsight has his shield generator, he'll take 2.76535 Wounds the first round, and 1.1342 every other round for 3.89955 Wounds. He'll be dead before he can kill the Assassin (by that I mean cause a single Wound on him), as he only causes 0.444 Wounds on him per turn (4 (perfectly timed) attacks, 2 (perfectly timed) hits, 1.3333 (perfectly timed) Wounds, 0.6666 after Lightning Reflexes, 0.4444 after Feel No Pain).
Now as for his death explosion, I forgot about the explosion not ignoring armour saves, so you are right on that, however this also means that if he somehow killed the Assassin in turn 2, he's still dead. Not to mention he DID get in a one-on-one fight with him, so this scenario should apply, I also don't think his shield was repaired since he didn't use it at all during the fight, and as demonstrated even if he did have it, he's still dead. As far as fluff exaggeration goes though, he still doesn't stand a chance. Eversor Assassins are ridiculously powerful (not to mention fast) in the fluff (1 of them being the equal of 10 Space Marines, and you know how powerful Space Marines are in the fluff), to the point that 3 of them wiped out all human life on a planet (small planet, more of a moon but you get the idea), one that would have had its own military. As far as the fluff is concerned, it's a miracle that Farsight was even able to block a single sword swipe from one, let alone a flurry of them.
Turns out I overestimated PE, being 8*0.88*0.88 so my actual wounds get reduced to 4.84 unshielded and more forgiving 2.42 shielded - you multiplied by 2/9 instead of 1/9 in the wounding part. It was 6 Eversors, but yeah, they're a walking Exterminatus; it is the crunch the one that doesn't do justice to the fluff. If it did, having an Eversor inside a Land Raider would be game over most of the times. My mistake, I thought Farsight had deepstriked as a unit and the Eversor had to hack his way towards him (it kills 6+ suits, Oblotai being one of them) and forgot about his actual duel with him. Remembering a Crisis is modular I thought they merely replaced the fried shield with a spare part, but maybe he didn't. Although I never intended Farsight to survive the 2nd turn of combat; I relied on the part where everyone shoots him as the source of the needed wounds, that's the "somehow". When the Eversor actually reaches Farsight he was already on borrowed time anyway. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 13:50, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
You're still getting preferred enemy a little wrong, it is not a flat 2/9 or 1/9 (and initially that's where I went wrong too), it is a re-roll whose value changes based on earlier results. In the first round it's (Y(1/2))*2/3) = Z where Y is the failed amount number in the To Hit/Wound rolls. In the second round it's (Y(1/2))*2/3) = Z for hits, and (Y(1/3))*2/3) = Z for the Wounds. Here's the full equations on the first turn, start to finish:
Chance to Hit: 8(2/3) = X
Failed to Hits: -X+8 = Y
You do realize this Y you got equals to 8(1/3), right? You're kinda walking in circles here, no need to write it as an equation with unknowns: rerolls are calculated as (1-OriginalProbability)*OriginalProbability and added to the result. The actual values are flat because this is a dice roll and the probabilities are indeed constant. Do it on Excel. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 10:28, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
Preferred enemy re-roll: (Y(1/2))*2/3) = Z
Thus Z = 8*(1/3)*(1/2)*(2/3) = 8*(2/18) = 8*(1/9)
Total Hits Caused: Z+X = A
Chance to Wounds: A(2/3) = B
Failed Wounds: -A+B = C
You did it backwards, this would actually give you a negative number and you can't have a negative probability. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 10:28, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
Preferred enemy: (C(1/2))*2/3) = D
Total Wounds Caused: B+D = E
Result of the save: E(1/2) = F
I did it your way just to check it. The answer you'd get is the same as my answer, and the same as Mathhammer's: E = 4.84; F = 2.42. You either misclicked or didn't follow your own procedure (which is exactly the same as mine, but in equation form). -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 10:28, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
You know what? You're right, I mistyped the final results and the equations are the same, so I thought something was a little wrong, your corrections and points to my equations are also correct. -- Triacom (talk) 22:13, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
They definitely didn't swap shield generators (though that would have made sense), because they wanted to take Farsight back for repairs, but he insisted that such repairs should be made en-route to the battle as he had a major role to play (though despite not making it to the fighting at all, the fight was still won). Also if the Assassin was on borrowed time, why did he survive yet ANOTHER point blank blast from Farsight's Plasma Rifle without even being slowed down in the slightest? Remember, his body is rigged to blow if his vitals drop below a certain point (this doesn't have to be when he dies, and in fact in the book he was still alive when the bomb went off), the fact that they hadn't after taking that much damage means he was still fine. You are right about the 6 Eversor's though, that's my mistake. -- Triacom (talk) 00:58, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
I was referring to the part where he insists the repairs are made en-route. Was his insistence successful and got it repaired? IDK, but he kinda needs to, and having O'Vesa (immortal because utter genious) and his spare parts bodyguards with him I wouldn't call it an impossibility. TBH I forgot the part where they shoot him again, but plasma did mess up the Eversor. He got thrown across the room so hard he bounced off electic cables and Farsight recieved him with a clothesline WWE style. Looking in disbelief as the torso still crawled towards him, the Tau knew the true face of plot-anger. Quoth the Eversor " >:U " -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 10:28, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
I figured that if he wasn't interrupted en-route they would probably have been successful (remember, initially they wanted to pull him completely off the field), but he had to stop mid-way, and as I said he doesn't use it at all in his fight with the Eversor, speaking of, when I read that the Eversor flew off the plasma coil, I read that as him leaping off of the lines back at Farsight, who cut him in half. Even if it was the current propelling him off of the plasma coil, his bio-readings were still not low enough for the bomb to go off, meaning he still wasn't in serious danger of dying. -- Triacom (talk) 22:13, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
Farsight wanted to reach Shadowsun's lines even after the botched assassination, our hot-blooded blueskin never wanted to stop to resuply and simply changed destination when the distress call came to him, all the while insisting on getting it done literally on the fly. Although he never seems to use the shield in melee anyway. When the Eversor bounces off the cable I'm not sure wether he gets thrown by the electicity or jumps deliberately. Like you said, his vitals didn't deemed it necessary to self destruct so he could still keep it up, that monster. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 06:56, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
Well it looks like we've finally come to an agreement here. Eversor's are definitely monsters, and in a good story I'd be interested in seeing how the Tau kill one. -- Triacom (talk) 08:58, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
Now as for the scenario, Farsight didn't mount a rescue mission, he enacted a battle strategy that despite failing, still somehow (perfectly) won the war (despite taking no part in the final act of it even though his part was crucial). What I was proposing was him showing up to hold off the Imperials so that the Tau could try to evacuate and they'd avoid a major slaughter of civilians. This wouldn't be a major attack, it would be communicating a message to the planet to have everyone arrive at designated locations, he'd show up very quickly to put up a fight against the Imperium while all non-military personnel are lifted out, then when his plan stalls he leaves as well, taking with him as many Fire Caste as he's able.
Hmm that sounds more reasonable, especially the part where the Tau survive by fleeing like always instead of defeating the Emperor's Fury (which are dedicated siege breakers) in a fucking defensive siege. Although Farsight was instrumental in diverting most marines away from the conflict, and it seems the Guard can't achieve anything on its own these days so it was a rather necessary move for the Tau to have a chance. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 13:50, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
As for erasing answers, I don't think you did, I checked your contributions page and didn't see anything, though this is the second time I've typed all of this up because a weird browser issue that happened. -- Triacom (talk) 09:20, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
Damn, I think I erased one of your answers by mistake. I hope you could post it again, Im outside on my phone right now. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 21:09, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
It's more accurate to say the fluff entirely ignores the crunch whenever it's convenient to do so. As for this entire discussion, do what I do and assume whatever's being written is exclusively composed of half-truths and whole lies meant solely to flatter whoever the subject of the book is. --Newerfag (talk) 20:55, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
The best shield is plot armour allright. Now that we're talking about points of view, mine is more about trying to explain how stuff happened tho. Its fun. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 21:09, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
The big problem I have with that attitude is the book is portrayed as fact. This isn't like the 5th/early 6th edition Codices where you could say that it's got intentional bias, and now it's going to become canonical for both the Imperium and the Tau (Until they redo it like they do every single fucking edition I guess). -- Triacom (talk) 09:20, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
Dimg ding! Of course they'll redo it, just as they did when Eldrad died during the 13th Black Crusade campaign way back when. It will either be retconned, painted in a more flattering light for whoever's codex is next to be written, or simply forgotten about entirely. You're taking all of this way more seriously than it deserves to be taken; my advice is to say to yourself "GW doesn't care about basic consistency, why should I?" Better to just pick and choose what is and is not canon for yourself from what they provide, and be the quality control GW never had.--Newerfag (talk) 00:46, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
If you're assuming I'm deeply bothered by this, you're off the mark. I'm really not, it's something to talk about when I'm bored, in fact boredom was primarily the reason I started doing mathhammer to begin with, and curiosity was the reason I started off this section in particular. I do not think about this on a daily basis and It'll fade as a memory in time, in the meantime though I'd like to get as much mileage out of it as I'm able, and that includes wondering how it could have done things better. Also to give it a bit of credit, the 13th Black Crusade was given a definitive end before they retconned it, spoiler alert, he fails at it (Abbaddon and all the Chaos Lords were stranded on planets, dominating the ground war but losing the more important space war). -- Triacom (talk) 04:18, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
I understand. Sometimes one can newer tell.--Newerfag (talk) 05:39, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
The actual problem with these books isn't the fact they do have a preferential bias (as if other factions didn't have it), but the fact it's played incorrectly. The Tau already won in Kauyon, can't the guard have a little win some time? Mont'Ka is a big "Look how much guardsmen suck!". Where's the old "It was hard, yet we did it" Guard? The fluff on the relics was more entertaining than the actual book. Even Chenkov managed to win, and that's why he was such a grimdark gem. And Triacom said it, those Cadians don't even look like Cadians. Where are the Kasrkin? Or at least some of the actual formations presented in the rules section. I love Commissars, and one of the only mentions of them were how they were headshoted with perfect shots. Hell, there's not even lots of Mont'Kas in the book either. Ok, people love Pask I get it, but could we get Cadian shock troopers that feel like shock troopers? They teased us with the Skitarii but they barely show up too. Like I said before, what we get is the guard failing utterly without any redeeming trait whatsoever. About my attitude, I find it entertaining when something happens and I get to imagine all the considerations necessary for it to happen, and realize how much luck and skill and plot armor was needed to pull it off. Like surviving an Eversor and the like. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 13:50, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
In that same vein, you know what they could have done to kill the Eversor, or really any of the Assassins? Fire missiles at them, not at their feet, but at the assassin, sure they're going to dodge, but so long as you have some way of detonating a missile in midair (proximity detector) you'll still hit them. Burst cannon fire from multiple sources would have also done it, rather than the stupid shots that hit them in this book. The Callidus for example is just as tough as the Eversor, and she dies to far less damage, but you know what would have fixed that? Do what happened in Kauyon, have the Tau in the suit be a decoy while Shadowsun commands from a hidden position (like a smart commander). The Callidus would think she completed her mission, then either leave or get caught, either way there's no plot armour needed to survive that encounter. For the Culexus you're fucked unless you are able to command the drones to fire on specific areas (markerlight it first somehow so they could track the markerlight while it moves for example), and for the Vindicare... You're fucked. I'm sorry, but the Vindicare has such a long reach on that rifle, he could have executed Farsight without the Imperial Guard even knowing he was there, and there wasn't really any way for the Tau to know he was there in such a scenario until he fired. The fact that the book had him get so close to his target in the first place was just stupid. I guess you could try the decoy thing again, but Farsight isn't the kind of guy to just lend his armour without due cause. -- Triacom (talk) 00:58, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
IRL missiles explode by proximity so it might just work, although 40k ones behave more like RPGs because, to GW, missiles have to punch you in the face to be effective. Almost anything would have worked better than having one dude fire a carbine at them (and the guy who wrote the Callidus seems a firm adept of -4Str). Markerlights can't fight the Culexus except by saturation bombing of the area he is in, and the Vindicare should have kept on firing. "Oh you'd take a bullet for him? Ok, make a line then". He got picked for this mission by scoring two headshots with the same bullet after all. They can headshot a target inside a metal box inside a metal box. But I'm a total Farsightfag so I wont elaborate on that and I'll just hope someone gets that bitch Shadowsun one day. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 10:28, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
At the least with the Culexus though, you could try to fire something on him that would leave some sort of trail that the drones could lock onto, but of course that sort of knowledge can only be gained after encountering one the first time, so they're still fucked. I'm really honestly at a loss as to how they'd deal with a vindicare that actually is allowed to keep their abilities, maybe an excessive amount of shield drones? -- Triacom (talk) 22:13, 2 January 2016 (UTC)
I mean, Culexii are both transparent and ethereal (wink wink), so even after markerlights you still shoot at BS1; kinda hard to keep track of a master infiltrator except by looking at the corpses. About how to deal with Vindicares, explode his general area. That's how I'd deal with pretty much everything, really. The only limit for them are the quantity of ammo they carry. What I feel that happened to this Vindicare wasn't much the reduction of his range (it's never stated, although it was inside a storm and you've got to mind the wind) but the sickening amount of plot armor for Darkstrider. I mean, firing from several blocks away inside a storm would be an impossible shot for regular mortals already. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 06:56, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
They aren't transparent (adaptive skinsuit notwithstanding), just very hard to focus on because your brain and technology just naturally rejects their existence so it's hard for anybody to realize they're looking at one (they'll just naturally scan past it without even realizing they've done so). Of course knowing how to counter them can only be done when you A) Know that they're there, and B) Have fought them before, so in either case the Tau were screwed. I don't think that the storm is any kind of excuse for the Vindicare though since they are ridiculously accurate, to the point that one was able to kill the a Dark Eldar pilot while he was traveling to collect new victims (aka at top speed). Even with the storm, wasn't the eye around the city and not the base? He'd be able to go anywhere he wants for a killing shot rather than right near where Farsight was landing. That is a good way of dealing with him though, but like the Culexus, appropriate countermeasures can only be used when you know he's there, which is usually too late. -- Triacom (talk) 08:58, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
Hmm true, the most dangerous quality of assassins is the fact you don't know they're there. About the Vindicare's position, he chose the tallest spire because of its height rather than its proximity to the target (allowing him to be spotted by Darkstrider, because he too likes to snipe with a carbine and great minds think alike or something). And now that you mention it, if there was an Orca flying then the extraction point was indeed outside of the storm. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 02:12, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
Except the Vindicare did choose the location because of its proximity, and if you were just basing the idea that he chose it due to it being a good firing point off of his journey to his firing site, I could buy that, except a bit later it says: "The Vindicare knew his target was close. While Tau technology had ensured their foes’ comms signals were scrambled, there was no impediment to the Vindicare’s equipment. Through his spymask, the lone sniper received translated Tau communications. He listened to reports, gauging when his quarry might draw near. The Vindicare knew Commander Farsight had made arrangements for himself and his cadres to embark upon Orca dropships, and this perch looked over the site where he would board. It could only be a matter of time..." He could have chosen to set up anywhere there was a clear line of sight between him and where Farsight would eventually be (it's not uncommon for Vindicare's to wait over 10 hours for half a second of opportunity) and yet he insists on getting as close as possible to the drop site, and still fucks it up. -- Triacom (talk) 05:00, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
In one story in the Assassin's codex, there's a vindicare that sits perfectly still inside the eye socket of a statue for several years(Can't remember if it was 4 or 10), and subsisted off of lichens and birds that nested too close to him. He had only a half second reaction when his dark eldar prey appeared into realspace, and he executed the guy with a turbo penetrator through the cockpit without even thinking. These guys are INSANE in their patience.Evilexecutive (talk) 07:07, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
Six years, never stopped aiming (Dataslate Oficio Assassinorum p.38, digital 23/08/2014). What I loved most of that story was the fact he collected the stuff one-handed and without looking, because the food pills only last a few months. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 07:54, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
That's pretty much what I'm getting at, having the assassin approach their target just because it would let him kill Farsight quicker instead of having him do anything else that would have been much smarter is just terrible writing. In fact, the risk involved in approaching their target (and thus the risk of failure) is the exact reason the assassin in that story waits for so long. It's not like they gave the assassins any timeframe anyway. -- Triacom (talk) 08:16, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
You said it yourself, the priority was to get line of sight, and that's not the easiest thing to get when there's skyscrapers everywhere. Or ruins, I don't know what they were. If the target is between buildings, then you end up needing to camp on top of any of them, which would bring you relatively close to the target. Makes me wonder about his first sniping point, before the drone detected him. And he didn't really fuck it up, Farsight just happened to roll a 4+ on his second LOS roll, and the second round wasn't a shield-breaker. But he should have kept on firing. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 06:19, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
Given how Imperium cities are constructed, it would have to be a miracle for there to be only two eligible sniping positions of a wide open area without any cover of any kind. I can link one image of an Imperial city that would show he could be hiding in dozens of places up high, and still have a clear shot to the wide open area that would be used as a landing pad (I can guarantee there's way more than just one tall building given how the assassin jumps from rooftop to rooftop, and I can also guarantee that there were many tall buildings much farther away than the position he took). It's just a really contrived way of writing him into one specific spot because the author doesn't seem to know how far or how accurately an Exitus rifle can shoot, and it's a really stupid way of stopping him from just tailing Farsight when Farsight was going Space Marine hunting (where the assassin would have been able to easily kill him), or explaining why the Vindicare doesn't put a few Turbo Penetrator rounds into the Orca Farsight gets into (which also would have easily killed him). -- Triacom (talk) 07:00, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
I guess I imagined the Orca hovering near the ground instead of over a helipad because of the presence of regular fire warriors, but maybe they were waiting already for extraction too. What the author actually needed was to place the Vindicare on a specific point so that Darkstrider could perfectly ambush him instead of storming the wrong skyscraper, so I had the idea he had compromised the visibility. After all, everyone knows the range and power of the Exitus rifle: "hella". And now that you remind me of the headshot on the dude inside a LR inside a "flagship", this Vindicare could totally have killed Farsight within his Orca, before sniping the Orca itself and killing everyone inside on the crash. I defended how Shadowsun survived the Callidus and how Farsight survived the Eversor, but honestly I can't find any excuse of how he survives the Vindicare. It's not the first time anyone has survived both a Vindicare and an Eversor, though (Dataslate Oficio Assassinorum p.39, digital 23/08/2014). -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 07:54, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

I don't really want to talk about Kauyon, but...[edit]

Kauyon

At the end of Kauyon says "...the great victory was also broadcast to those civilizations that had allied themselves witht he Tau empire, and even many who had not. There were those amongst them who realised that under the triumphalist claims was buried a death toll that likely spiralled into the billions". Amongst WHO? Death toll of billions of what? I thought the imperials already knew how many they had lost, so they being the WHO seemed unlikely. Then would that mean billions of tau? I didn't think they had so many warriors available to crusade. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 23:42, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure who they "amongst them" refers to, though I'm presuming the allied races based on context, and as for the death toll, that would have to be the Tau since they don't try to hide the losses the Imperial's take. It's just another example of something I said earlier, no writer ever pays attention to the amount of Tau there's supposed to be. -- Triacom (talk) 00:25, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
  • Out of curiosity I figured I might as well make an estimate of the Tau's numbers. The Tau do not overpopulate any planets, and have five castes, one of which is really small compared to the others and one which takes heavy losses during battles, so assuming each first Tau Sept world has ~4 billion Tau, the second phase septs have ~2 billion (I'm probably way overestimating that) and third phase have <1 billion (rounded to 1 billion to accommodate the random Tau colonies), there are about ~48 billion Tau, divided into five Castes. Now the Castes aren't equal, most citizens are Earth and Ethereals are a really small portion of the population, however considering their losses before Farsight as well as the fact not every Fire Warrior makes it through their training (this is mentioned in Farsight Enclaves) I think it's fair (maybe generous since they'd also reproduce slower due to having fewer members) to say that the Fire Caste represents a fifth of the overall Tau, so 9.6 billion Fire Caste. Now the Tau way of defending territory is to spread themselves out, so they'd be split up through the various Sept Worlds (roughly 400 million for each world while many of the others were to defend the various colonies and/or were stationed in various fleets). Now factoring in losses is difficult, mainly because the Tau don't release how many of their own died, however we know they took massive losses fighting the orks (I'll generously say only about 1.5 billion over their history of fighting them), massive losses fighting the Tyranids (about 500 million, since they lost explorator fleets, colonies and almost an entire Sept Fleet to them) minor losses to the Necrons (a planet, about 20 million at most) as well as constant fighting against the Imperials. Now in previous books, and I don't see why it wouldn't be the case here, Imperials annihilated many colony worlds before being stopped on Dal'yth, I'd guess the losses from the constant fighting, between fleets, colonies and the final world would at least come to 1.5 billion. As for repopulation, the Tau can't replenish their Fire Caste as quick as many other races can repopulate their fighters, since they need to be born from a certain group of Tau, then they need to be trained extensively, then they're used on the field. I'm honestly not too sure how to calculate this especially since it's never mentioned how the Tau's re-population has been decided by the Ethereals. In any case, without factoring in repopulation there'd be about ~6 billion Fire Caste to defend the entire Tau Empire (and since I've been generous with how long they've been fighting certain species like the Orks and I didn't factor in random species like the Arachen I think that's justified), when Farsight left he'd take a massive amount with him (and given how many he uses, loses and the fact that he was in a fleet that could be classified as a crusade to take all of the Imperial planets) I'd say that they lost about another ~1 billion thanks to him. Then Shadowsun launches her attacks on the worlds and has a death toll in the "billions" so that's at least another billion gone, about ~4 billion Fire Caste left to defend the entire Tau Empire (3 billion in the worst case scenario), leaving about 150 million to defend each sept world and the rest to go defend the various Tau fleets, maybe even 3 billion if they stationed the appropriate amount of Tau in the Dovar system to guard against anybody who might retake the planets (so worst case is 2 billion left to defend the regular Empire). Now the Tau who can pilot the various battlesuits are even less, I'd say there's about 50 million Shas'ui per sept world and that's another generous estimate. As far as numbers go too with the Tau that had been on the planet and the ones who had been defending it, that seems about right when compared to the numbers the Imperials had, however this also means that if the Tau were to be hit by another hard invasion anywhere, they'd be screwed, it also means at this point the Imperium shouldn't really have a hard time in crushing them (especially if we remember how strong Space Marines are supposed to be in the fluff). -- Triacom (talk) 01:22, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
  • Personally I like to think that happens at the end of Mont'ka, because it says Farsight is fighting the Tyranids, he calls for reinforcements because he desperately needs them, none show up, and then the book ends, presumably with the Enclaves and Farsight eaten by the Tyranids because they can't be beaten by the same trick twice and the hive mind knows how to make the Tyranids nearly immune to plasma fire. I can't think of a way for Farsight to beat them, or their ships especially considering his fleet would be divided across several planets. -- Triacom (talk) 01:22, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
    • I actually need to update this a bit because the Farsight Enclaves (and the Tau in general) are doing way worse with their military than I thought. I missed the part where it actually does mention how much damage the Farsight Enclaves took from WAAAGH! Grog. Three of Four Sept Worlds were consumed by the fighting, and less than two centuries before Mont'ka happens, so after Mont'ka, the Enclaves are screwed in their fight against the Tyranids, so screwed (no wonder Farsight never got those reinforcements, there weren't any), but at least the more sympathetic characters won (and after how GW's been treating them the nids need a break). -- Triacom (talk) 06:50, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
      • Remember a great percentage of the population of the Enclaves are Fire Caste and Viorlos is about the same size as Viorla (the other core worlds are maybe the biggest examples of "Planet of hats" I've ever seen). I don't really know why you're saying a sept world has ~4 billion Tau. We are ~8 billion and we don't have mega cities like Dal'yth, and we aren't using most of Siberia, Australia and the Sahara desert. I'd put the estimate for 2nd Sphere septs aroun 15 billion Tau. And even then then, Earth being 70% water would be considered an ocean world, so rocky planets would have even more inhabitants. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 10:52, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
I say they have about 4 billion because the Tau don't overpopulate planets and they'll keep large portions of a planet completely uninhabited or in a state they can't (or won't) colonize just because it makes them happy, not to mention they'll build cities on the best spots, and then ignore other areas that wouldn't be quite as nice, rarely opting to build a floating/orbital city over the area instead, or making the area industrialized and most of the Sept Worlds are supposed to be self-sufficient (meaning growing all their own food, making all their own supplies, training all their own people, etc). If they were like the Imperium where some worlds would just be primarily cities and other worlds would be primarily agri-worlds, then I'd agree a bit more. I'd also point out that not only do we not know the relative sizes of the planet, but also that even if I do increase the population, I'd have to increase the casualty list to match since they lost a lot of Fire Caste in repeated offences (since casualty percentage in conflicts doesn't really change). Overall I think the percentage of losses (and the percentage they have left) would stay the same. -- Triacom (talk) 17:43, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
At 8 billion I wouldn't call the Earth "overpopulated", regular worlds would have even more space. I'm not saying Tau build Hive worlds, but they dot the landscape with so many cities networks that the planet ends up looking artificial, like Dal'yth or Lubgrahl - those are examples of planetary sized city networks that also leave empty space as ecologycal reserves. Not to mention Tau still populate worlds even if they are adverse - Viorlos is a volcano planet like Mustafa? Cap the volcanoes. Viorla is seasonally bathed in plasma? Builds domes, still contributes more Fire Caste than most worlds. And Tau can create specific planet types, not as exaggerated as the imperials, but by increasing one caste over the other you could get a Martial world (Viorla) or an Academic world (Tolku) without negating that world its PDF, defense stations and home fleet. The percentage of losses would remain constant but the rebuild speed and available number of forces would nevertheless increase (Say you lose 50% of 4 and 15 billion: that's 2 and 7.5 billion survivors and a shorter rebuild time for the latter, kinda like Dal'yth after the battle). -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 19:59, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
That's a fair point, though I stand by the final percentage since the Tau are handicapped by the Caste system (which they can't just do away with since it's their basic physiology), for example if they have 2-7.5 billion survivors then they'd have about 400 million-1.5 billion Fire Caste, and they'd also be spread over a larger area (sept worlds, colony fleets, explorator fleets and colonies, as well as any bodyguard fleets or conquest fleets). Unless they're screwing like jackrabbits (and start enrolling children) I don't think they'd have the ability to grow their fire caste anywhere close to the rate they lose it at. -- Triacom (talk) 20:43, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
Returning to this example and factoring in the Enclave's increased Fire Caste population I'd say it translates into 1-3.75 billion Fire Caste, and that's about one single hypotetical world. And comparing them to humans that mainly have their offspring in a single batch per lifetime (or several, but keep reading), then factoring in Tau live less that would mean they don't reproduce like rabbits, but actually like fruit flies. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 21:41, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
Aren't most of the Fire Caste supposed to be on active duty though? Not to mention the Enclave's supposed to have nearly three out of their four worlds worth of supplies lost to WAAAGH! Grog, I also thought that the Tau live an average human lifespan, though I don't know how long it takes them to make a kid or how many kids they can have at once since I've never heard of more than one (though it could definitely be more). Most of those just seem to be average human and when commenting on Tau physiology the Mechanicus doesn't mention faster/slower aging or reproduction. -- Triacom (talk) 22:05, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
Those worlds were attacked centuries ago and the Tau are fast builders - those worlds have been repaired, and if Farsight considered prudent to send reinforcements then they may be sufficiently well footed now. "It burns so briefly, the light of my children, so briefly. But, by the Greater Good, it burns so bright!" —Aun'Va. I've seen several people say Tau live about 40-70 years (a Tau in his 40's was considered old); nothing like the average ~20+ a worked-to-death forgeworlder lives, tho. I commented on the fruit flies example because a generation lasts about a month and you can monitor any changes quickly, which means reproduction would be more frequent even if they themselves don't devote much of their time to screwing around like rabbits do. An example of this is ~6 generations of Brightswords in 250 years, albeit most Brightswords lived shorter than average lives, some weren't related to each other, and Farsight himself had a military career of about 110 years before getting the sword if the timeline is to be believed (He had to be in stasis for sometime after Dal'yth, even if the book says otherwise. After all, the book also contradicts itself saying he enrolled in 771 but fought from 715 to 825). -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 00:49, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
Sorry but I'm going to have to correct you there, they weren't attacked centuries before, it was less than two, and the only place he could send those reinforcements from is the single untouched sept world, and they were already fighting the Orks. As for the quote you linked, Aun'Va says that not because the Tau are short-lived, but because they were short lived in comparison to him since he's supposed to be hundreds, if not thousands of years old since Ethereals age differently than the other Caste members. The 6 generations of Brightswords I really don't think should be used since, as you mention, the title being passed on doesn't really have anything to do with age, as far as we've seen you lose it when you die (or go into life support). Truth be told I didn't even see that little 771 before 715, but I guess I shouldn't expect as much from a supplement that said Farsight's forces "cannot not include Shadowsun or Aun'Va" or one that listed Farsight as an eligible bodyguard for Farsight. Proofreading? What's that? -- Triacom (talk) 10:43, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
In retrospective, I shouldn't have abreviated "1.7 centuries" as just "centuries ago". My mistake. But many were evacuated, it's not like they all died and only one world remained. I'm kinda disapointed Tau short life span was retconned away. About the last part, not including them in an Enclaves army makes sense, since those two kinda want to kill Farsight, and his Commander Team rule is perfectly undestandable. If anything, I liked more the previous iteration because you could take as few commanders as you wanted. Now all of them must be picked, and that prevents Fusion Blade spamming in low point games. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 15:42, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
    • I'd be nice if the Enclaves were kinda like Cadia, with everybody being more than mere civilians. After all, the Fire caste conforms the vast majority of the population in the Enclaves. Although without the xboxhueg human navy and without space marine shock forces, who could prevail? They'd need to pull an Iyanden. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 02:58, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
You might have misread that, [here's a link for proof.] So as the rules stated, when the book came out it was illegal for you to have an army that doesn't include both Shadowsun and Aun'Va, because proofreading costs too much money. I don't get why the commander team [lists Farsight himself as one of the bodyguards he is eligible to take either.] It could have said "his bodyguard must be chosen from the following models:" and then not listed himself for example. I will still say though that the Enclaves having three of their four worlds engulfed in war (obviously the Fire Caste from the fourth would be fighting too) then having to fight against against Kraken, then less than three years later needing to fight against the Imperium should leave the Enclaves in a state where they are in desperate need for more Fire Warriors, and that's why I say they should be screwed against Leviathan. -- Triacom (talk) 20:45, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
Aah, I seem to be using a different version of the supplement that doesn't have that mistake. And the wording of The Eight is techically incorrect as it strives to portray Farsight as equal to the others, but I always saw it as being fixed by calling them "Farsight's Seven", athough it sounds as if they were going to rob a casino xD. Even tho it says the waagh "consumed" 3 worlds we read about stuff like city nodes full of refugees being lifted, the orks killed and the same cities returning to full productivity within the week. And when they fought the Tyranids, they evacuated the Viorlos in a week too (despite allowing thousands of civilians be killed in daily conventional-war battles), and supposedly it was a desperate situation, yet the fleet had destroyed 3/4ths of the Tyranids and Violos was the only planet where they made landfall. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 22:43, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
Oh I know that the worlds weren't destroyed by any measure, however my point was always that the Fire Caste for the Enclaves would be woefully lacking in numbers since, while the nodes could be evacuated, the Fire Caste wouldn't be on them, they'd be fighting against the Orks so that the cities could return. Even against Kraken's singular attack they'd still lose Fire Warriors as well, especially since they tried the Mont'ka strategy first. -- Triacom (talk) 08:36, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
Never said they didn't incurr in casualties, but I do mantain their military isn't crippled, especially when their civilians restored much of the damage in less than a year (weeks in some cases). Say Viorlos has around 15 billion Tau and the other 3 septs and colonies make another 15 (which I think would be an underestimation). Of those 30 billion Tau a third are fire warriors, because Farsight Enclaves. Half of them go to combat and the other half stays as a garrison. 2/3 of the garrison die and the crusade suffers heavy losses but is still combat capable, so that's 1/3 loses and 5 billion Fire warriors total. Say a full half died before Farsight's epiphany. That's 2.5 billion active fire warriors which no doubt increased before the Tyranids arrived, and this time the Fire caste had a respite because most of the fighting was made by the Air caste, and the Mont'Ka over Viorlos was suspended because Tyranids were immune to it, not because the casualties became untennable (they destroyed they Tyranid's air support and did most of the fighting floating beyond the swarm's reach). Farsight arrived to Agrellan with a small contingent, way less than a million Tau, but that wouldn't be too much of a strain to the Enclaves. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 20:13, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
I think you're vastly overestimating the numbers the Enclaves would have, especially since they're only there because they were a conquering fleet and have received no backup from the Empire, at first not because the Empire refused to send backup, but because it couldn't. I don't think for a second the numbers they have in the Enclave are at all comparable to the numbers the Tau have on their normal Sept Worlds simply because they didn't arrive with anywhere close to as many, and it has been less than two centuries. I do know why the Mont'ka was suspended, however my point was they'd have taken large losses in trying it, and I never said their military was crippled, I said they'd be in desperate need of strengthening it. Now against Leviathan, which would have the plasma resistant Tyranids and have ships made to counter previous Air Caste tactics, do you really think they'd stand that much of a chance since the Hive Mind isn't stupid enough to make the same mistake twice? -- Triacom (talk) 21:21, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
They were meant to reconquer those former colonies, but the plan was also to resettle them, right? I mean, it does mention civilians, as if the former settlers had returned, tagged along with him or something - the cursade's roster does mention colony ships (how big could they be?) and they feel a lot more than the Crusade's attached scientists and ambassadors. They did have some time window for resettling to happen, although it does sound too hurried and half assed of an explanation for that many citizens, not to mention so many civilians were moved without any Ethereals? I don't know HOW they got so many Tau, but Viorlos is stated to rival Viorla in warriors, and it has several academies (and a world isn't composed by a single caste). How could a crusade without descendants/resettlers hold so many worlds and systems on its own anyway, especially after ~65-80 years? (no srsly, how?) -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 01:12, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Yeah the plan was to resettle them, but wouldn't that also mean they'd have less Fire Caste in the colony ships? Not to mention the Farsight Enclaves only had three Ethereals. THREE. Less than one Ethereal per world, so I don't know how they got that many on over there. "How could a crusade without descendants/resettlers hold so many worlds and systems on its own anyway, especially after ~65-80 years?" That's basically my main problem with the Tau numbers, it doesn't make any sense. -- Triacom (talk) 04:39, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
With so many people I don't know how he even started with only 3 Ethereals to begin with. And the colony ships could have had fire caste non-combatant elements like children, academy teachers and the closest things to civilians they have. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 23:46, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
Maybe they didn't have that many people and the ships were mostly loaded with supplies, for example the stuff they'd need to actually build the Sept Worlds into Sept Worlds and then more colonists would arrive later? Aside from that I don't see why they'd go in with only 3. -- Triacom (talk) 06:31, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Daemons and AIs

On second thought I was way too generous with those numbers, the amount of years they've been on those planets would not be enough to increase their numbers by that much, so they should only have about half as many on each world minus T'au, meaning there's about only <1 to <2 billion members of the Fire Caste left at absolute most, so no they don't have the numbers of Fire Caste to waste on those kinds of world, and they're dangerously close to being without a military. Personally I always thought the Farsight Enclaves would be more suited to making AI advancements to compensate for their lack of a military, and this should bite them in the ass since Daemons can possess any unprotected technology (like their battlesuits for example). -- Triacom (talk) 04:20, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
Well, comparisons between the Tau and pre-Golden Age humans have been made in-universe. I thought it was the main Empire the ones who would have better tech in all fields simply because they have more Earth caste scientists, yet at least on the AI side, Enclave drones seem more intelligent, as well as having exclusive patterns like Warscraper drones and the like. But I think it'd be the most autonomous systems the ones that would be posessed, like Taunars and Gun drones instead of Crisis suits. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 04:36, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
I also thought the main Tau should have been better partially because they had all the scientists, and partially because they had the unity of the Ethereals, because the Ethereals used to actually do something. Before the Farsight Enclaves they were the reason the Tau had no civil war and why the Tau were all happy with their jobs, without that unity the Farsight Enclaves should have at least had a little division, not make even more scientific progress. Now the Ethereals are just a parasite on the Empire. -- Triacom (talk) 05:04, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
Forgot to address the possession point, from what I've read it's easier for a Daemon to corrupt something the more advanced it is, so I'd agree on both the Taunar and the gun drones, however I wouldn't rule out Crisis suits since a lot of what's in them isn't any less advanced (arguably more) than the gun drones and unlike pretty much every other race in the game the Tau don't know how to make their technology possession-resistant. -- Triacom (talk) 06:54, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
I wouldn't say possession depends on how the complexity of a machine, but rather on how independent it is - usually measured by the quality of its machine spirit. The AI of a Ghostkeel would choose its pilot (like its pilot chooses it over other Tau) over a daemon because it grows attached to him. Meanwhile, Gun drones on independent patrol would be easy target for daemonic manipulation. And now that I think of it, have Titans with loyal crews fallen to chaos? I do remember tales of crews fusing with their chaotic Titans, but I always thought the crew was corrupt too. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 10:47, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
But the Tau don't have machine spirits, if they're using AI's in their suit that can learn and grow attached to their pilots, then the problem there is that Daemons find it pretty easy to corrupt AI (in a Gaunt's Ghosts novel there's a lot of AI that get corrupted by Daemons within a few seconds of being exposed to them). You've got a good point in the independence of the machine making it easier to corrupt, but I wouldn't say that other AI are less of an issue. As far as the crew in Titans goes, either the Titan becomes laced with enough Daemons to control it that it no longer needs the crew, or the crew fuse with it and Daemons. As far as I'm aware, all of the crew who fused with their machines and became Chaos Titans were corrupt themselves. -- Triacom (talk) 18:23, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
Weren't those AI independent ones? I'm saying battlesuit AI are co-dependent of the pilot like the machine spirits that help a crippled marine to pilot his Dreadnought body. Although yeah, if you cram enough daemons into anything it eventually develops spikes and moves on its own, kinda like what that Transformer's Cube did. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 19:59, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
Yeah they were independent, however I don't think it would take that much longer for them to corrupt co-dependent AI, at the very least they'd start messing with the ability of the pilot to control their suit. -- Triacom (talk) 20:43, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
Empty suits could be used like puppets, but don't you need to neutralise the marine pilot of a dreadnought before it can be corrupted? -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 21:41, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
Dreadnoughts work differently because the Machine Spirit itself can fight against Chaos, and all Marine Tech is warded in some way shape or form against Chaos. I will say though that I haven't heard of any dreadnought taken over while the marine inside is alive, usually CSM just kill the marine then re-purpose the remains of the dreadnought. -- Triacom (talk) 22:05, 12 January 2016 (UTC)
Then there wouldn't be Chaos Dreads - the bulwark against chaos was the marine, not the machine spirit itself. Otherwise we'd hear about dreadnoughts ejecting their traitorous pilots. I like to think of them as depicted in Entombed (fanmade, I know). I especially loved the line "I am We once more". Dreadclaw machine spirits were more independent and agressive (the descent was mostly automated) and look what happened - traitorous spirits ejected their loyalist passengers. I see most Tau battlesuits more like high-tech-yet-piloted F-22's rather than the pilot-optional Eddie UAV from Stealth.
What? I'm not sure how you gathered that I said the machine spirit being able to fight against possessive daemons made it immune to possession. Just because you can fight doesn't mean you will, and just because you will doesn't mean that you will win. What it does mean is that the Imperium usually doesn't have to worry about tanks eating their passengers during the fighting, and it's also one of the biggest reasons that both machines and humans are looked at so thoroughly once the fighting is finished, to make absolutely sure there is no warp corruption/possession going on. -- Triacom (talk) 10:43, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
I think I'm understanding now. You're saying loyal machine spirits prevent daemons from pupeteering them like simple machines, yet would be helpless if a daemon was forced upon them. It'd appear like machine spirits come to exist because the AdMech believes so (faith is a true thing in the setting). Then, if an actual friendship is formed between a Ghostkeel and its pilot, wouldn't that turn its AI into some sort of machine spirit even though Tau have no notion of such a thing? -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 15:42, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
Pretty much, and I don't know if the AI of a suit would be like that for sure, but I don't see any reason why it wouldn't. The creation of machine spirits is weird, I don't think any book has fully gone into the process but every machine in the Imperium has a machine spirit that can cause it to do really strange things when asked too, like not shoot a techmarine even though the gun itself should be fine, or locks opening because a tech-priest communicated with the machine spirit and convinced it to open, and then there's the famous one about the Crimson Fists Land Raider, where it woke up by itself, realized Orks were attacking the planet, and then went on a rampage everywhere killing as many Orks as it could, all without any crew of any kind. Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) for now the Tau don't really have true AI, the best they have is Oblotai 9-0 which is a mnemonic AI, and we actually have those now, however while the machine is capable of learning and remembering, they have no self-awareness and cannot make their own decisions, everything they do needs to be programmed into them. -- Triacom (talk) 20:45, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
Well I think some examples of imperial machine spirits are actually ways of masking their nature as true limited-sentience AIs. Tau have simple AI, but they have them, either as pilot assistants or drone networks - individual squirrel intelects that end up combining in a network until they begin to resemble Skynet in the most superficial form (recieving orders but not the specific instructions of how getting it done). Mnemonic AIs must be programmed to be the way they are, but the scanning of a person is the programation, and their decisions are mostly the same the original would do, their free will being akin to wanting a black car and exclaim you're in luck because black is the only available color. I mean, I'm of the same opinion as the first part of Entombed (except for the "machine spirit, take control while I check facebook" parts, should be the opposite) and say Ghostkeels have integrated TARS (Interstellar), being able to joke and the like. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 22:43, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
Some ways in which they differ though is that machine spirits can be found in machines that do not have any sort of components that would allow them to have AI, not to mention the reason a Mechanicus Genetor wants the Tau exterminated is because their technology doesn't listen to the Machine God, and I've also been told of another story (though I'm having trouble remembering what this one is called so don't quote me on it) where the Mechanicus describe Tau technology as "dead" since they can feel no machine spirits inside of any Tau tech, and the tech itself does nothing when they talk to it. As far as mnemonic AI goes, the AI can be programmed for various situations and it can adapt, for example, if you tell it that falling is bad and you push it over, it'll fall, do it a few more times and eventually it'll catch itself and not fall without needing to be told to catch itself (if you're interested I'd recommend looking up the video where they show off a tiny robot that does this kind of thing). -- Triacom (talk) 08:36, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
The AdMech invest so much belief into every piece of tech that even some gears would develop a spirit, and most Tau tech are soulless because they don't usually treat them as anything beyond, well, tech, even if they're prideful about it. That lack of soul makes me remember a faction of soulless metal egyptians. Tau aren't utterly immune, Kais is the prime example, but even then chaos couldn't get a lasting hold on him - he got severe PTSD at worst. Now imagine a tiny Tau soul inside a battlesuit with even less soul. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 20:13, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
Getting chaos disruptions however, that'd be more of a likely scenario rather than posession. Kinda like that time pre-heresy battle automata didn't register daemons as targets because, to the robots, there was only empty space and glitches before them. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 20:16, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
I know the Tau are a much smaller blip on Chaos' radar, which is why I've been focusing on the AI. That's a good theory on why machines develop souls, and also a good point about the Tau tech not recognizing Daemons. A group of drones would be possessed before they even recognized any sort of threat. -- Triacom (talk) 21:21, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
What I'm saying is that Tau machines would also have a smaller blip on chaos' radar than imperial ones, not to mention chaos is mostly addicted to human and eldar emotions. I feel like most chaos would probably say "Why would I want to bing daemons to several tau drones, when I could summon Nurgle's flies" or something like that. Maybe their Dark Mechanicum allies would be interested, but the vast majority of chaos comes in Renegade/Cultist flavor. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 01:12, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
I doubt that, just because a machine has a machine spirit doesn't mean it's a larger target, Daemons possess anything that's possible to be possessed, it's why there's so many space hulks floating around that have been completely taken over by Daemons, it's why it is possible to find pre-Imperium tech that's also possessed, and it's also why Daemons chose to possess a robot with an AI (not a machine spirit) the second it was able to. Their whole goal is to get into the Materium and corrupt it in any way they can, which is why it's possible to trick them into entering a body and lock them into it, and in that way create a Daemonhost. Also the only way for a Daemon to stay in the material realm is either to be near a place of worship/be near offerings, or to possess something, in which case they can stay in the Materium indefinitely (until that thing is destroyed of course), it's also why Daemons are so possess-happy. -- Triacom (talk) 04:39, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
I would say a machine spirit stands out more than a regular machine in the same way a psyker stands out more than a regular person. And space hulks have been in the warp, so it'd be expected of them to have chaos taint. But taking into consideration their wish to manifest themselves in this realm, possessing sounds like something they would do. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 23:46, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
I guess I can see that, though I'm just saying I don't think Daemons would ignore regular machines, meaning that I think if they saw a machine without a machine spirit, and one with one, they would possess the one without first and then attempt to destroy the machine spirit with the possessed machine, especially since Daemons always take the path of least resistance (they're kind of lazy like that). -- Triacom (talk) 06:31, 16 January 2016 (UTC)