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Slightly less recent, but still new skub[edit]

At least with the D&D Drow you know where you stand: these are sprung from the fapfic fantasies of a borderline disorder edgy gothic kid. -- 11:31, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Really? Are you aware the whole Forgotten Realms started as Ed Greenwood's sex fantasy?
--Justalurker (talk) 01:19, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
I think it says a lot about how jaded I am that it took "it's normal for siblings to have sex as long as no one gets pregnant" for me to raise an eyebrow as far as kinkyness went. Crazy Cryptek (talk) 09:15, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

I see my review echoing across websites and I'm happy. This webcomic could be SO MUCH more, much more amazing when these Drow were not under thrall of religion... yet sunk so low and laden with logic fails... My anger is more of disappointment than intolerance. Heck, I love Warhammer 40000, thhe holy grail of grimdark because it does not have cringy bisexual drow, but true badass Dark Eldar. --SaltyMan (talk) 10:12, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

No, in warhammer 40.000 just happen to have a hermafrodite god of perverstion who wants to murder and rape the entire existence and the reaction of the dark eldar so far is to murder and rape other races to avoid their soul to be fuck by the disaster THEY create....But hey! they are badass! that fix everything in this fucking wiki --Estegio (talk) 19:23, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

To be fair Estegio, the Imperium has a believable downward spiral that caused it to become horrible and evil, and nobody is trying to make them out to be some sort of utopia. Likewise the Dark Eldar aren't trying to play the victim card and they're also fully aware that what they're doing is unnecessary and evil, they're just massive hedonists and don't care. The biggest difference between them however is that you're not supposed to sympathize with the Dark Eldar. -- Triacom (talk) 08:21, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
Sure the imperium have somewhat believable downward spiral, just point out this wiki seen to defend it a little waaaaaay to much, just look the page of the imperium that can be resume in "this genocidal dictatorship is not that bad", point if I can sympathize with chararter like Caphias cain or eseinhorn who are nice men who work with a super genocidal and fascist society them I can extend a little bit of sympathy to the drow(granted this is just about their moral, having mecha golem but still needy slavery is just plain stupid)--Estegio (talk) 18:16, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
The wiki defends it because it is believable, and provided you're not in a hive world or on one of their ships life in the Imperium really isn't all that bad. Another difference is that the heroic characters in 40k genuinely try to make the Imperium better, whereas the characters in Drowtales care little for changing the status quo (they might say they do, but their actions amount to very little). -- Triacom (talk) 19:22, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
Golems are not robots. They are hard and expensive to make, need mana and skilled pilots to operate. --Justalurker (talk) 01:19, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
The status quo in DT world is endless clan war, starvation and demon infestation and the protagonists (you do not have to call them heroes) definitely try to change it. The problem is they do not agree about the best solution (like what clan shall win the war, end on the top and bring peace and order ;-P )
When/if someone brings peace, safety and prosperity to Chel, then it will be time to organize local chapter of DETG (Drow for ethical treatment of goblins). Face it: the story, the plot and the DT world do not revolve around humans.--Justalurker (talk) 01:19, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
There's no reason for that to be the status quo. A quick search showed me that there are in fact people in the setting who use golems in place of slaves, and not all golems require pilots. There's no real reason for them to be starving aside from forced grimdark, as stated on the main page they could easily have enough food and with such an poor and needy lower class population there's no need for slaves at all, even if we ignore the fact that golems should be doing the work (or people piloting them if they really needed to). Also it's not like they're super short on mana either, they somehow always find a way to get more. Any intelligent faction would have just left all the others to rot and go off to do their own thing in an area where they wouldn't be starving and fighting, however since the drow are both evil and the villains of the setting they are more focused on being the kings of their sand castles than they are in living in luxury without fear of conflict. For the record there is no reason that the story needs to revolve around the humans, so I really don't get where you're getting that idea from. I used the humans on the main page to give examples of how the Drow are evil, and in no way am I asking for the story to revolve around them. -- Triacom (talk) 05:00, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
In the main page, you say the Drow shall farm for food and trade with the surface. They are doing it. In the caverns around Chel farmers grow mushrooms and raise tiktikis, but this is not enough for the big city. The surface colonies are used to grow food, and goblin slaves are used there, because Drow cannot live on the surface without mana (at least for long). And golems need mana just like Drow.
Most slaves in the Chel itself are Drow, slaves from surface are few (gladiators, light elf sex slaves)
The mercantile clans do trade with goblins, but we do not see it much in the story. Ariel is Sarghress, raised on the stories of Quain conquering and plundering all three worlds, you cannot expect her to be merchant ;-)
There is nowhere to run from Chel, the underworld is mainly desert (inhabited only by Dark Sun nomads). Sources of water are few and have already cities built over them.
Using mistreatment of humans as example of Drow evil? Whatever Drow are doing to humans, they are doing to fellow Drow, only 10 times more.
--Justalurker (talk) 08:41, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
You miss the point. All this simply explains how the flimsy justification of "no villains, we are poor widdle people" shtick doesn't work. We do not complain they are evil (heck most of us are Wh40K fans, deepest Grimdark), we are shocked by the immaturity and dissonance of a lot of features. Especially usage of Goblin slave plantations THEN claiming "actually muh unique Drow setting are pretty sympathetic." No sir, they are not. --SaltyMan (talk) 08:56, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
If they're not doing it enough to feed their entire population, then they're not doing it enough. It's not as if it's impossible or that the land isn't available, it clearly is, they just choose to be evil instead and I'm fully justified in calling them out on it. Next up I see no reason for why the ratio of drow slaves to other race slaves is in any way relevant. Next up, we don't see trading much in the story because it would ruin the status quo. If the drow entered into a mutual agreement with people on the surface then they'd be able to get as much... anything really. They'd never have a food shortage again if they simply promised something like being the muscle for some king's army (it's not like they'd have any chance of losing after all). You also can't expect me to believe for a single second that it's impossible for them to get some sort of drinkable water either routed down to their city, or dug up near their city considering that rerouting rivers has been possible for literally thousands of years now in real life. Next up, that's the point, they're mistreating their slaves not because they need to, but because they're the villains despite the fact that the fans refuse to see them as such. -- Triacom (talk) 09:37, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
The starvation is due to war. During Diva's rule things were better (still shit for the lower 99%, but no starvation), but the wars are going on for 30 years, since Nidrachaal coup, and getting worse. --Justalurker (talk) 11:26, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
And why is there such war when resources are supposed to be limited? As I've said on the main page, they could have just left for somewhere else and be fine, but they continuously choose not to, and war also shouldn't make it impossible to get food and water. This isn't 40k where they've got explanations for the various wars, in here the only reason they have them is just for the sake of having them since it would be easy for all the drow to live peacefully and they just choose not to (once again, because they're the villains). -- Triacom (talk) 18:41, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
Let's not forget the heavy lack of males and even the senselessness of matriarchy. D&D Drow were imbued with a female clergy, so there. In Drowtales, we have a matriarchy with no father figures and lots of lesbian sex. Fuck, even a funded sex fiction featured Maya crying about not seeing the surface and lesbian-groped by a female guard. I can dig it back up given enough whiskey: shit's so Edgy all of you got to understand when I rage-filled the whole page earlier: its fans are mostly, exceptions not withstanding degenerate Deviantart "lesbians" (e.g. Male in real life). It is perfectly moral to hate such things. --SaltyMan (talk) 10:05, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
The canon says that Drow women are bigger and stronger than Drow men.
Average Height - Females: 2.25m / 7'4, Males: 2.08m / 6'10
yes I understand these physical proportions make no sense, if their planet have anything like Earth-like gravity, but this is the canon.
--Justalurker (talk) 11:26, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
> (gladiators, light elf sex slaves)
>well it doesn't feel like they have a case of "oh noes we are a famine-wracked empire... not to mention the sheer "tragic" tone of their race's "sad" past in the intro nicely flies splattering to the wall...--SaltyMan (talk) 10:43, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
The intro clearly says that their tragic past was of their own making (and their light elf cousins).
--Justalurker (talk) 11:26, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
Warhammer's Druchii never make excuses or apologize for their actions. They're awful, horrible people and own up to it. Meanwhile the Drow are so full of apologizing or excuseology that it just comes off as hollow attempts at being sympathetic. At least when the Nazis in wolfenstein try to insist they're the real good guys in all this the game goes out of its way to show this is nothing more than them having a completely fucked sense of right and wrong rather than agrees with them. I also generally prefer the Druchii to the Drow because I always found something kind of off about the evil elves in D&D being pitch black. Not only does that open up some unfortunate implications but it also doesn't make a lot of sense. Being underground encourages albinism, not dark colouration. And if you wanted a skin tone to hide in darkness it'd be dark blue, not black or purple tinged black which would produce a more noticeable sihlouette. Meanwhile the Druchii are pale but that's because they live in A. Fantasy Canada or B. The sunless depths of the webway where only the elite really gets to feel the light of Commorragh's stolen suns. It makes sense. Meanwhile at this point I'm pretty sure that the Drow are mostly just played for unironic fetishism in any media they pop up in. Hell I think there's a whole subgenre dedicated to D&D esque dark elf erotica. I generally dislike fiction that reads like the author had one hand down their pants while writing it unless it states itself to be outright erotica and the Drow in general just give me that vibe way more than the Druchii do. I appreciate honesty in author intent, when the creator just outright says they're doing it because it gets them hot and bothered like that weird guy with the mask who made Nier Automata I'm cool with that. When you try and rationalize it endlessly I'm just going to side-eye you and your Magical Realm. Like monster girl realm? I'm fine with that, monster girls aren't my cup of tea but the creators are at least honest about it being fap fodder. Drowtales comes off as people who want to make fap fodder but are kind of ashamed about it so they instead try to excuse it. Crazy Cryptek (talk) 07:11, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
I approve heavily. --SaltyMan (talk) 08:06, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
Both DnD and DT Drow are descended from dark elves, who were always dark even before they turned evil (I know, it was retconned in DnD).
And neither DnD nor DT Drow are into apologizing for anything.
Dark elf/Drow porn is real, and it powers even this site ( at least I see on this page ad for "dirty fantasies from author of the Spider Queen"). The main income for DT comes from Daydream subscriptions, this is no secret.
--Justalurker (talk) 08:41, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
I didn't mean the characters did, most of the negative response here is the author's flimsy apologist attitude that his "unique Drow" aren't evil or cruel. Either be the monster you are and own it, live up to it, or don't be a deviantart wangsty elf. --SaltyMan (talk) 09:00, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
My issue with evil elves being literally jet black for no sane reason just rubs me the wrong way in general? It seems kind of unfortunately racist (put your pitchforks down I'm not saying it's intentional, just that it rubs me the wrong way) and it gets even weirder with how heavily fetishized the Drow generally are. And again, living in lightless conditions tends to do one of two things, you either go albino because producing pigmentation chemicals is biologically expensive or you take on a colour that absorbs the most common wavelength of light in these conditions (usually seen in the deep sea where a lot of life forms are kind of reddish because red is the wavelength of light that pierces the farthest in water). Black isn't even a good colour to hide in darkness because it produces a pretty stark sihlouette, as I said dark blue would be the best. And well, as I said, if Drowtales just advertised itself as being heavily about sexuality I'd be fine with it. I've got not qualms with stuff like the Cummoner or Oglaf that are very brazenly about porn or have no shame about their sexuality. I'm not actually sure if Drowtales is unembarassed about its sexuality but as I've said, I dislike authors who are dishonest about how they use sexuality. Like quiet in metal gear V where we get "oh she breathes through her skin" and then you see someone else with her condition who doesn't dress like that and all I can do is "sure, whatever Kojima." Then Yoko-san says the leading lady has high heels and a fantastic ass because "he just likes girls" and you know, I'll actually give that a thumbs up, rock on you weird mask wearing weirdo you. My general issue with sexualization is honesty, when you have the gonads to admit that you want cute girls in sexy outfits because you like cute girls I've got tons of respect for you. When you try to hide behind rationalizations and in-universe excuses rather than just admitting you like yourself some T&A I just think you're being a big chicken. Plus generally speaking, people who are unashamed of their sexuality tend to be much less weird and creepy than people who try to excuse it no matter what fetish it is. Even Lolicons/Shotacons who just admit it; as gross as I find the whole fetish; tend to be less skeevy than the people who try to dress it up. Crazy Cryptek (talk) 12:58, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
OH OH OH, do you know Drowtales had plenty of Lolicon sex of Ariel with a dragon in older versions? Kern quickly covered it up and forbade it, but Old Shame never dies. So yeah, a Vore/lolicon/Guro loving Kern we are facing; much the reason I hate him for a good reason. Links are in badcomicsreview ;)--SaltyMan (talk) 13:10, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
Still beating this long dead horse? One page is not plenty, it was deleted 10 years ago, and it was Ariel transforming herself into grown up dragon woman with big T&A (overpowered ability breaking the law of conservation of mass, I know).
Lolicon is the canon for DT setting
but do not expect Kern drawing any of this shit, because prison is no joke ;-)
--Justalurker (talk) 19:07, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
First of all you linked a dead image. Secondly the links on the badcomicsreview page show that she definitely didn't transform into an adult. -- Triacom (talk) 19:26, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
World setting link fixed, and surprised it is still there.
The original infamous page was shown only for few days, IIRC, and for paying members only afterwards.
The next page is here, if it is what you meant
you are right, I misremembered it, Ariel is not "huge", but she did transformed. "Shell of mature person and organs of child?" Law of conservation of mass obeyed, but better do not dwell on this any longer.
--Justalurker (talk) 20:00, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
Still that shows Kern's pedophiliac misantrophy. Seriously look at it: loli turns to dragon and fucks a dragon. Furry, Loli, human-hate smorgasbord we have in the whole setting. This is fucking disgusting, and one of the main tenets why Drowtales is bad, because it's built on a rotten as fuck fundament. Like the surface town human counterattack: we have a kind empath berating the humans who want to save their families that they should just go and accept it, and she gets whiny at the enraged human that "Why don't you take the survivors and leave?" Before Ariel kills him: the person who spoke of eliminating slavery, and standing against it. There is something seriously brain-dead here. --SaltyMan (talk) 05:51, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
>One page is not plenty, it was deleted 10 years ago,
God wiling, it will never be removed from the web. Tiny details such as these reveal plenty in a person's rotten character. You like loli? You deserve to go to prison. Period. One part of animu culture that should be banned is loli&shota: it's legitimizing Child Pornography, FULL STOP. --SaltyMan (talk) 05:53, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
If having a different point of view was enough to excuse you of wrongdoing, then there'd never be a need to have prisons. The drow in the setting are well aware that other races are sentient creatures, they simply don't care. They know what should be morally right and morally wrong, they just don't care. They know that horrible shit happens, but they choose not to do much (if anything) to solve underlying issues (such as the ones we've already discussed). The fact that the drow regard everyone else as lesser beings is exactly one of the reasons they are so evil in the first place as that's intentionally ignoring the idea that other creatures might be equal to you, which is one of the biggest tropes for any villain. If we were to accept the setting, then I could easily claim that the drow are a bunch of instinct driven emotional fuck machines with no soul, and because I have a different view to you or anyone in the setting nobody would be able to tell me that I am wrong. As for the other pictures (I'm going to assume that I know the ones you linked since photobucket's currently undergoing maintenance, so all that is showing is that 'hang in there' kitten gif), yes she transformed, but I'd like to point out that when she says her 'organs', apparently that also includes the one between her legs (at least that's what the image implies, so it's very much pedophilia), and it was only her outside shape that was modified. I agree that we shouldn't dwell too much on it, however I'd like to point out that the creator wasn't all that apologetic, all they really did was go "well if you are offended, I guess I'll get rid of it". -- Triacom (talk) 05:55, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Photobucket's back up, yep the image was the exact image I thought it would be. -- Triacom (talk) 05:57, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Which is the whole reason I started the whole page months ago. Kern has already revealed a lot of issues that makes my crankiest morning or nightmares look like Alice's wonderland. Pedophilia, Guro, Vore, Cannibalism, wannabe Nietzsche edginess with attempted justifications behind it. This guy isn't a "shy nerd", he is a fucknut that would shoot up a school or rape a girl IRL if he could. Seriously the way he designs the plot, he'd make a pretty fitting Columbine shooter. Yes, that's why I had written that were he to kick the bucket, the world would lose another degenerate psychopath. Sadly we take their shit as "art" nowadays... --SaltyMan (talk) 06:09, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
I have taken finally a gander at the pic, and jesus I need a whiskey, and a sedative, or a gallon of Fluoxetin. "Maybe the Drow aren't bad, sir..." Wait, I bought your ass off slavers and put you to an arena of death for FUN, and now gave you sex in a child's form. Moral, Logical Dissonance topped with pedophilia and batshit crazy broken logic. That picture is a sum of everything fucked up with the guy.--SaltyMan (talk) 06:46, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Drowtales is bad and you should feel bad.[edit]

I don't even know why you're trying to argue against this Geniewalk848. Having some redeeming bits doesn't mean something isn't terrible. Having people that like it doesn't make it good. If you can provide reasons that make sense for why something is as bad as it is, despite the fandom that it's garnered, then it's still bad regardless of how many people like it (see the Twilight series or 50 Shades of Grey as other examples for critically panned but commercially successful literature). Also pointing out that criticism leveled against the series is being deleted definitely isn't a complaint, it's just pointing out that a scummy thing is going on behind the scenes. -- Triacom (talk) 04:48, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

Drowtales is not bad and you should not feel bad.
The majority of this page is a rant about the Nagyescsed plot, which is something the creator himself has addressed as being a weaker part of the story, as well as having so little to do with everything else that the human characters were not even named. The fucking humans in this story are like the 50 Ironborn assassins running from Ramsay Bolton in Game of Thrones because he had some dogs. Yes, it was stupid as fuck, but the story is so much bigger than this one scene that the dogs shouldn't be the sole focus of all discussion. Imagine trying to describe Tyrion, Tywin, Brienne, or Ned Stark to someone and the only thing they say is "But the dogs! What about the dogs? They ran from some dogs, right?" That's what Drowtales is like.
The page doesn't even mention Nuqrah'shareh, Felde, or Mimaneid, plot points that have 100 times more importance than "Ariel once attacked a human castle." There are thousands of pages of the drow characters fighting each other in beautiful full color pages that update daily. Even on /tg/ there are people who defend it.
Good day, here is Saltyman, the original starter of the whole thread under the Drow page. Thanks for agreeing with me, but then screw you for shifting posts and deflecting the points. It is bad. And not just one flaw, starting right from the start, with a moral compass attempt in a same page with a massacre on "Halmes" village, and watching mutilated slaves in an underground Arena while talking about how sad it is to die this way and talk about purity and Sharess and buy a human slave for a bodyguard drawn from death pits. If Drow were so overpowered, why buy a human? Then comes the "bludgeoning child with mace to death as initiation into a warrior's heart" scene. If you cannot feel the utterly fucktarded dark edginess hiding an incredible plethora of psychopathy on Kern's part, I can't help you. Some people BEAM their broken psyches. And even you agreed on how shitty iy is, seriously, even I don't defend my ideas that savagely. --SaltyMan (talk) 06:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
also, If you want to argue, you might as well explain this Drowspeak: which is which. I don't know what is what but surface colony vs desperate humans trying to save their kin and get killed by Ariel who also didn't mind the captives in the village would be sold as slaves despite blatantly being a heroic, anti-slavery one for now, was truly the last straw. That moron Kern can't stay consistent for ONE FUCKING STRIP --SaltyMan (talk) 06:34, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
Ffs how many times do I have to point out that the artwork is undeniably well-made but the plot is fucked? Have you even read the page????--SaltyMan (talk) 09:47, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
The original header was perfectly accurate - it's skub. Anons fight over it. Talk about it's flaws all you want. But some anons actually do like it, and even if you don't it's ridiculous to compare this to something like FATAL. -- Geniewalk848 (talk) 05:07, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
Strange, it looked to me like the bits about that story were just that, bits about that story while the majority of the article discusses the series in general. As I stated before having people who like it does not mean that it is good, unless those people can find a way to counter the bad points (which you've yet to do), and nothing that you've posted here states why that second bit you keep removing should stay gone. If you think it's in the wrong section then instead of deleting it, you should move it.
Something bad can still be skub because being bad does not mean it can't have a fanbase (unfortunately). That doesn't mean it's not bad and if that's too complicated for you, then you really shouldn't be on this wiki. To give another example, I'm a 40k player, and there's a few 40k books I think are really fucking shitty (see the talk page for the Damocles Crusade as a good example of that) however I can find dozens of people who like the books that I think are terrible. At the end of the day I can point out why these books are terrible, and these people state that they like them anyway, regardless of what flaws those books have. Does that mean my points are somehow invalid? Because people will just like shit while being unable to defend it from being shit?
Also I'm putting your argument in the topic I made to discuss this point. Making additional topics just to reply to earlier ones is a stupid idea. -- Triacom (talk) 05:32, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
I'll tell you what, if you don't want this to be called bad, then why not counter all of the negative points? If there's more negatives to the series than positives (and in Drowtales there's a hell of a lot of negatives considering that the series is flawed at the basest level) then it's a bad series, regardless of how many people like it. They can still feel free to like it all they want, and in fact there's an entire genre of media called 'so bad it's good' where people intentionally expose themselves to terrible things and enjoy them, while fully admitting that they're terrible.
Like I said, having a fanbase does not automatically make something good, or magically prevent it from being bad. -- Triacom (talk) 05:39, 15 April 2017 (UTC)
Told you, they don't even deny it.--SaltyMan (talk) 06:51, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Well I just started reading the webcomic after watching this.....let call it "review" and so far is not really that bad, I mean sure it have is fair share of fail but almost every work of ficcion have those, specially if they last long And about the moral relativism....REALLY? in THIS wiki? I mean almost 80% of the content here is about warhammer, a setting who pretty much define grey and black morality with one of the worst regimen in history and they create that waaaaaaay before it was mainstream to complain and bitch about that, so far some people just accept the moral compass of the story just like they acept Ned stark(you know, the good guy everyone love and cared)beheading a poor men right at the beginning of the story or gushing about Jaime being redeem even when is idiocy kinda kickstart the war of five kings. Last point not even a fucking good review, it looks like salty is just rambling about different points, is one thing to point out shitty part in any given story but so far this just look like shitposting --Estegio (talk) 19:23, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

You mean the Night Watch deserter. There is a good difference between callously apply the law to kill a deserter and not listening to him(he was a Night's Watch who was bound by law he agreed to, though not in best circumstances), and claiming morality and being anti-slavery THEN casually strolling in a surface colony where the humans are massacred, survivors are stored for later sale, getting an orgy, and killing the desperate night raiders who wanted their kin free while chanting Sharess' holy fires and shouting cheesy lines. You need to read and think more before you speak. --SaltyMan (talk) 06:14, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
First of all, the issue is ethical dissonance. Warhammer and Warhammer 40k very much know that they have evil characters doing evil things while Drowtales tries to pretend as if there's no good and evil while nearly all the drow are evil hedonists. Secondly what people accept in other works doesn't really matter, if you want to point out the ethical dissonance there then go right ahead. Finally I'll agree that Saltyman needs a time out, as they're acting like a child right now, however this page doesn't deserve to get removed purely because somebody is ruining it for everyone else (instead they should be removed). -- Triacom (talk) 05:26, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
No the best of circumstance? wow that is understandment if I ever saw one, a guy who saw a bunch of ice demon who look straight of wrath of the lich king, he run for is life and in the end his head is taken by noble protagonist(who honor means he most do the deed himself), all while is child looked,and this protagonist is love by all people(at least all the right people), Ariel killing that child is just the old trope of values dissonance in order to make things harder, now with triacom I disagree, just because the series point out they are bad dosent make imposible to gain simpathy(and having them being villian is a moot point because all of them already cross the moral evident horizon)and even them that dosent stop of having outright hero like caphias cain or eseinhorn, anyway I dosent matter since the page was edit and it seen more reasonable now. --Estegio (talk) 18:16, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
I never said it was impossible for them to gain sympathy, I just said that in 40k's case they're fully aware that they're evil whereas Drowtales likes to pretend as if there are no villains. -- Triacom (talk) 19:22, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

^^ this above is all I wanted to say. Plus I ALSO hate Game of Thrones, Estegio. For the EXACT same reasons. --SaltyMan (talk) 09:01, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Just keep calm[edit]

  1. There is no need be so hysterical. It is a web comic, after all. If you call author of web comic you do not like "virus of mankind" and want to "strangle him at birth" you need little more perspective. Shut down 4chan for a while and watch some news from real world, and you will see there are some worse things than bad art.
  2. This comics is called Drowtales, and it is about Drow, not humans. Humans are part of landscape, no protagonists. If humans never existed in DT world, nothing in the story would have to change (Kern said in one of the livestreams that he wouldn't use humans in the DT world if he was starting again). Drow are overpowered compared to humans, like IRL humans are overpowered compared to dogs, pigs, monkeys or other animals, but the story is about Drow fighting other Drow.
  3. If you are spreading this review "across websites", thank you. DT is one of the better known webcomics (rank 250 at right now), but there is no such thing as not enough publicity.
  1. That's pretty much the reason. Not even entertainment media isn't clean of Edgy corruption. Mind you, I'm a working man in a relationship, from a quasi dictatorship of a particularly evil religion, and I've had it, somebody's got to read these. --SaltyMan (talk) 06:22, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
  2. >like IRL humans are overpowered compared to dogs, pigs, monkeys or other animals, that's what I meant. He is a little misantropic fucknut who uses porn patreon money to draw broken plot. He could just stick to drawing porn and voila! Everyone happy. Again, thanks for agreeing with me.--SaltyMan (talk) 06:22, 17 April 2017 (UTC) Not to mention seeing humans like pigs and whatnot even though Drow and Men share CLEARLY sentient and communicable minds, emotions, bodies and culture indicates a heavy clinical Psychopathy, (potentially) on YOUR and (DEFINITELY) on HIS part. --SaltyMan (talk) 13:58, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
  3. I don't mind if people see it. As long as people see thhe horrible broken plot and moral compass, and maybe goad him into shifting to a more rational and less Edgy style, Why not? He may mature a little. --SaltyMan (talk) 06:22, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
Literally kill the author? Glory to the Drowtales? Why is everyone so passionate about this all the sudden?-- 02:23, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
a man who is in denial of his own conscience and acts though truly is a miserable little fuck that should have strangled at his birth. I know people like him, and they are a drain on any workplace I've been in. Creative, in a way, but harmful to everyone. The true viruses of mankind. At least you can satiate parasites, these are the disease..." - Posted on 23:23, 15 April 2017‎ by SaltyMan
Read the history of this page. I am not passionate, more like amused, watching this perfect example of nerd rage ;-).--Justalurker (talk) 02:35, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
Woop woop here come the bitch brigade. What sockpuppet of Kern are you? The one he jerks off in Tuesdays? -- 06:04, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
While I'll agree that SaltyMan's overreacting, this webcomic is really shitty and it seems you've completely missed the point Justalurker. Drowtales should be focused on the Drow, but to have them be such blatantly overpowered Mary Sues who are right simply because we're told they are is dumb and worth ridiculing. Introducing characters just to have them fulfill tropes or act as doormats for other characters is even dumber. It honestly doesn't really matter that the humans in the setting are getting shit on, what matters is how the characters are portrayed, after all you can have powerful characters who aren't mary sues, but if you lift them so far above everyone else in the setting, it's hard not to see the author stating that their favourite munchkins are better than everything else in the setting, and that there could never be any real threat to them beyond some other drow. Hell, if there were only drow pretty much all of the shitty points would remain as they are (especially every single bit regarding their slaves) and having no other races certainly wouldn't fix the series' completely and utterly broken moral compass, nor would it fix the blatant favoritism or poorly written characters and plot points. -- Triacom (talk) 04:50, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Hello Pot, my name is Kettle...[edit]

Personally, I find it hilarious that the whining about a shitty webcomic is now actively becoming even more cringe-inducing than the webcomic could ever hope to be. If this is some kind of satire, congratulations I guess. If not...then wow, you really need to evaluate your priorities in life. --Newerfag (talk) 22:17, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

The very fact that I made you lose your time posting here and reading it is worth it, dipshit.--SaltyMan (talk) 06:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
Look who's talking, you're the one who has nothing better to do with his life but rant and rave about a bad webcomic. What are we, short on bad webcomics?--Newerfag (talk) 13:51, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
Wait wait wait wait, WHY are you particularly upset about this then if it IS a bad webcomic?.... --SaltyMan (talk) 13:56, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
Because your demented ranting manages to match the webcomic for badness. At least learn how to write it as if you don't have a personal grudge against the author, because all the bile you spew makes it seem you have a far more personal interest in this beyond just hating a shit webcomic. --Newerfag (talk) 13:59, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
I'm sorry to tell you Newerfag, but Saltyman acting like a bitch isn't good enough justification for deleting the drowtales page and as much as I disagree with how they're wording their arguments, I do have to agree with them on that point. -- Triacom (talk) 14:48, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
Once again, this is for everyone else, but somebody acting like a child isn't enough reason to slap the delete tag on a page. That's simply not going to do anything in this case besides lower you to their level. -- Triacom (talk) 05:26, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Tl;dr review by Saltyman[edit]

Hello. I'm the dude that angrily wrote about Drowtales in Drow section ages ago. If you cringed at the page, here is a shorter review. It's like someone with the drawing skill and funds of Michelangelo drew Dickbutts in Sistine chapel, then drew the Judgement Day around it, and then pissed on the drawing and sprinkled purple skinned, pointy-eared and white haired Kaldor Draigos in it. --SaltyMan (talk) 09:49, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Okay what the fuck is going on here?[edit]

I have not read Drowtales nor do I ever plan to but I keep on seeing this getting onto the recent edit page with kilobyte level decreases and increases in content. Right now I'm kind of inclined to go "a pox on both your houses" because this is starting to look like a mess and neither of you are conducting yourselves with a great deal of grace. Seriously, shape this shit up. Also, why is this comic inspiring this much rage while we don't have jack shit on a treasure to tabletop gaming like Darths and Droids? And if we managed to get a Homestuck page of all things going that was generally free of skub and arguing even at the height of its popularity (although to be fair, I don't think the 10-13 year old squeeing fangirl part of the Homestuck fandom has ever read 1d4chan) then I am damn well in my rights to hold other webcomic pages to that standard. I'm going to sleep on it in a few minutes then I'm going to see about working out a compromise so we can end this fucking edit war before you fuckers start digging god damn trenches. Crazy Cryptek (talk) 21:31, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Go for it!-- 21:38, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
Like the wizard Saruman, Kern has combined Drizzt Do'Urden with Anime and created the ultimate skub. -- Geniewalk848 (talk) 21:41, 17 April 2017‎ (UTC)
My sides are in orbit. --SaltyMan (talk) 13:35, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
No, it's one asshole with a gigantic hateboner and way too mu h time for his own good. Heck, I say just get rid of the whole thing, his edits have consistently been shitty rants, butthurt, and paranoid rambling. --Newerfag (talk) 04:45, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
Luckily for the world, we do not act on the whims of a Drowtales fanboi, or any single person for that matter =) --SaltyMan (talk) 13:35, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
You know that applies to you too, right? If you don't want to be treated like an obsessive nutjob who can't force his mind away from a webcomic he hates, then stop acting like one. You'd be better off on Encyclopedia Dramatica with the way you carry on. --Newerfag (talk) 06:40, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
I'm glad you caught the venom of ED in my writing. It's what DT fanboys deserve. --SaltyMan (talk) 11:58, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Happy birthday to Drowtales! Time to party![edit]

Why is this day not like other days? Because it is 16th anniversary of Drowtales! 16 years gone, and many more years to come! Years of fun and games for some, years of pain, rage, suffering and hot salty tears for others (not naming any names). -- 16:12, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

  • sigh* Troll harder. You see, Newerfag, just because you logged off and then posted as anonymous does definitely make you look even more pathetic than you are. Plus if you have fun with slave RP rape porn and gladiatorial combat of captured slaves, with the sexual light elf x dark elf porn DEFINITELY played by two males in which you jerk off in your folds of fat is up your alley, have fun. --SaltyMan (talk) 17:00, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
  • First, way to project. Second, I don't even recognize that IP and sure don't give enough fucks to care about that comic's anniversary. I do, however, approve of anything that makes you look like an even bigger fool than usual, and this anon's pointing out a fact that it has in fact survived this long seems to fit the bill. --Newerfag (talk) 04:42, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

>Second, I don't even recognize that IP and sure don't give enough fucks to care about that comic's anniversary. Right, you didn't. XD --SaltyMan (talk) 13:34, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

    • I could just as easily say that you were the one to post from that IP, and I would have just as much proof of it as you do. Which is to say, none. --Newerfag (talk) 06:37, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
And still, we know who is the asshole here hiding behid sockpuppets. --SaltyMan (talk) 09:03, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
Before you make another baseless accusation SaltyMan, ask yourself this, what are you going to gain from continuing this argument, even if you're correct? The way I see it you're just making somebody else annoyed for the sake of it, or maybe because you were bored. You got your jabs in, and now it's time to move on and just let it be. -- Triacom (talk) 09:37, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
You know it doesn't feel right to let such people have their way. It sorta goes over to RL for me as well. Such people's words are tolerated WAY too long for me.--SaltyMan (talk) 10:39, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
If there's nothing to gain and no point to be made with the argument, then continuing it is only going to make you both mad. Sometimes it's just better to let somebody else have the final say in something, even when it irks you. -- Triacom (talk) 18:41, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Shut The Fuck Up, Everyone[edit]

To start off, Drowtales is, I believe we can all agree on, better than the Goblins comic. We can also agree that it has a LOT of the exact same problems, at least the ones not related to the art. If you enjoy at least parts of the comic, great! Write a synopsis and keep some good humor so you can jokingly point out the problems. If you hate it, great! Give as fair a summary as you can, make sure you sell what sucks. Chances are good that both exactly the middle ground that both sides could agree on. The problem with this page is the EXACT SAME as the problem on the World of Warcraft Forsaken page. A handful of autists cannot seem to let a short and concise summary that pokes fun at the work stand, and either feel the need to remove what they deem as an attack or the people who dislike it feel the need to rant and fucking rave on and on and on and fucking on about it. You lot may as well be young teenagers reviewing each other's fanfiction given the level of maturity and restraint shown in the Skubfight over this article. Know what I remember about Drowtales? Robot chicks beating a space elf into a state of submission then forcing her to breastfeed poison from their bionic boobs; that's fucking stupid, fucking hilarious, and the ludicrousness of such a situation should take more precedence over a long dissertation on why the work is bad or why the person that wrote the aforementioned dissertation should be sacked. Final point: why the fuck aren't you lot uploading images to support your arguments? Post the offensive pages in question so they can be mocked all the more! Post some of the pages with decent artwork too! At least filling this space with something to look at is more constructive than reversing each other's edits and being snippy little cunts to each other in the summary bar. --Thannak (talk) 05:43, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

I've been thinking of heavily editing it to explain everything away without the massive whining that other users are currently doing, the only reason I'm holding back on it though is because I know my work would immediately get undone by Saltyman or whoever else still has it out for this comic for some reason. -- Triacom (talk) 06:10, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
No, no, go ahead, just don't overly cut everything, and let 1d4chan's snark stay. I'm interested in your perspective. --SaltyMan (talk) 06:15, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
Daydream should have it's own section. I'll explain: Drowtales hosts multiple comics on the site, the main ones being Moonless Age (Ariel's mary sue adventures and the war between the Drow clans, aka the "real" comic) and Daydream (some insanity where subscribers vote to see cyberpunk space drow orbiting Earth while growing nanotech dicks to fuck each other with). That's why some pages seem so off the wall compared to others, they literally don't take place in the same universe. -- Geniewalk848 (talk) 07:09, 18 April 2017‎ (UTC)
So I've gone over the main page now. For such a small bite change it's a rather drastic alteration, and please try to keep it to about that level. If you want to add anything to it from that point forward, go ahead, I'm just sick and tired of this editwar and hopefully this ends it. -- Triacom (talk) 08:17, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
Well this saves a lot of work on my end. May as well delete this doc I was drafting about proposing a compromise. Good work on stopping a budding edit war. Crazy Cryptek (talk) 12:19, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
Pretty good!--SaltyMan (talk) 13:33, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

We broke this page?[edit]

I cannot see any more replies, is it possible we broke the talk page? ;-) It is now bigger than the main page, this does not happen often.

If you want to continue talk about Drow slavery, economy and grimderpness, why not move it to official DT forum? The forum is not as active as it used to be, but still alive (about 50 messages per day).

The second arc of DT is over and the third arc is about to start, this is the best time to persuade Kern and DT fandom that DT needs less fluff and love and more ProudAnd DefiantGrimDarkness. The worst that could happen to you is ban. ;-) --Justalurker (talk) 11:43, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Persuade Kern? Persuade his Deviantart lesbian (e.g male in real life) fanbase? No thanks, I'll lurk elsewhere to inoculate the masses against valus dissonance and how dumb it is to parade an artifical moral code when one is emotionally immature. Making sharks vegetarian sounds easier. --SaltyMan (talk) 11:57, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
Not to mention why make it Edgier? It should be re-constructed in many ways, so that it can be less of an Edgyboi wankfest and more of a Reconstruction of the Drow concept. Vaelia could have been a perfect supporting character in bettering surface relationships. --SaltyMan (talk) 12:00, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
What do you mean broke this page? I can still see the replies just fine, and if somebody hasn't replied in 6+ hours then it's likely that they're at work or went to sleep (sometimes doing one right after the other). In any case I'm not interested in moving it over there because aside from fixing the main page, I care very little for this trash. When a series consists almost entirely of mary sues doing their thing then I find it extremely hard to get invested, especially when new plot points are pulled out of somebody's ass with next to no buildup (if there's any at all) and personally I don't find the art style all that appealing. It's not bad, but it's not my thing either. -- Triacom (talk) 18:41, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
I could not see my own replies once I posted them, and it was my fault :-(. Disregard this topic, if you can :P --Justalurker (talk) 19:09, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

Goddammit, where's the funny in all this skub?[edit]

So, 1st, I fixed the first section, simply because it was breaking the TOC. I like a bit of order in my threads.

2nd, I know this stirs the pot further, but the current article, in all its skubtastic glory, is not looking to me like a normal skubby 1d4chan page. The Chakat page (which is skubtastic AND bad) goes into FAR less length on the author's potential mental or social issues, and the ENTIRE page is less than the "So about those Drow..." section. Granted, chakats MIGHT be less fucktarded than these Drow, but that's your flavour of skub to taste. However, it's almost as long as FATAL's mechanics section, and that's with that section using multiple bullet points to explicitly break out examples of WTFness in a mostly orderly and factual pattern. Does this article really need to be this long? To make these many attempts at points? What's with all this pseudo-pop-psych? Is 1d4chan now 1dFreudchan? Are we here to speculate (or make blunt accusations ala "dammit, we KNOW he's a closet pedonecrobeastisadomachochist with delusions of adequacy")? And what's with all the quasi-philosophical wankery about ethics, morality, and cognitive dissonance? It's all over the place like you went on an Olestra binge!

FFS, folks, it's a SHITTY webcomic. You do NOT NEED ALMOST 5000 WORDS to communicate that! What, did you fail 8th grade English? Were you never exposed to "Essay-format"? Can you not sum up an argument with at most THREE properly chosen examples? By the bronze balls of Khorne, you're all gamers of one stripe or another! You've all been exposed to shitty writing in the form of bad rules, idiotic worldgen, and expy-character gen! Can you not learn to do better without editwarring it into the ground? Love of god, RaHoWa's less than 2000 words, and perfectly well conveys how utterly stupid an RPG concept-in-practice can be. Right now, this article is like Angela Dworkin took up webcomic review on behalf of the Prairie Home Companion. Be the meme, and get shit done on making this a shorter, pointier article. At the very least, then, it'll be easier to print out, roll up into a spike and jab a fanwank in the eye with it the next time they open their mouths to defend this pile of feces. -2001:56A:F107:D500:5CFA:FD39:BD72:BF80 10:15, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

For your second paragraph, these are not comparable. You're asking why a page explaining why an entire setting and story is bad is longer than a page that needs to explain away a single race (you might as well ask why the Kender page is shorter too, and you might as well ask why Matt Ward's page is longer than both of those, and roughly equal to Drowtales). The page is almost as long as the mechanics because it covers about as much, Drowtales is by no means a short series after all. I also removed all of SaltyMan's mentions that Kern might be a little messed in the head, however after reading that bit earlier up this page (the one about the dragon dude) and also in the interest of not being a tyrant I decided to let them have at least one jab in there. By the way saying that it goes into less length on the author's mental and/or social issues is a lie since there's only one mention of the author's possible issues, and the rest of the page is just poking holes or describing this shitty comic. I have no idea where you're getting this 'psuedo-pop-psych' unless you read the one jab and just assumed that the rest of the page was like that. As for you comment about what we're here to do, we're actually here to do both (also if they draw underage characters having sex and then try defending it, then I think it's fairly safe to say there's something a little wrong with them), we just talk and edit/delete as time goes on and we discuss what needs to change and what needs to stay. I also don't get what's hard to understand about the dissonance, that's the main reason the webcomic sucks and it needs to be covered in full.
I submit they are. RaHoWa's about an entire setting, with people, motivations, background, history and mechanics to play within them. It's spectacularly badly done, IMO, but it's there in complete (more or less). Drowtales is ALSO such a setting, group of people, varying motivations, etc. Yet RaHowa sums it up in a lot less words. I used the Chakat race as an example, as that page is less than the entire Drow section to boot and yet has been spooged about by more than the original writer (my god, Chakat fanfiction...), and yet still properly conveys why it's just so damn bad. I don't need to ask why Matt Ward's page is longer (although I think it could use a trim), as Wardicus is responsible for multiple codexes and related books, the fucktardation of an entire era of 40k, mass lore and fluff rape, and other acts of nerd rage. He has touched many books, many authors work and many cool ideas in places that should not be touched without consent (can you show me on the Dreadknight where Ward raped your chapter?). The Drowtales author has touched on one race, poorly, if at length. The Psych comment comes in part from the revisions to the page (comment goes in, comment goes out) and the derp on this page on the same topic, although I admit that's purely my opinion and added for rage reasons at the time. And I flatly disagree with you on "in full". It needs to be conveyed "well". Factually, point-form, simply. This is a wikipedia, an online encyclopedia. Not someone's Master's thesis.-2001:56A:F107:D500:5CFA:FD39:BD72:BF80 21:49, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Racial Holy War's a game that doesn't have plot points, characters or much of a story at all really, so it doesn't need nearly as much to go over. Drowtales is also really fucking long, far longer than that game could ever hope to be if it had a series (hell, it's far longer and more in depth than the Chakat series). Personally I'd rather cover several things long and with an in-depth look, rather than covering a lot of things in a very poor way. Even Wikipedia has extremely long pages rather than short bullet points, so bringing that up doesn't really help your argument (just try searching wiki on Wikipedia for an example of that) and if this really is supposed to be an online encyclopedia, then going into detail is one of the things that it should be doing! -- Triacom (talk) 05:56, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
It's...a...story. A very badly written one, with pretty pictures. If you want to cover something in depth, then write a novel about it, or an essay. This is a wiki. Feel free to pull examples of wikipedia pages that cover a single novel or story that are longer than this article, and I will grant you that part of the argument. And, no, an encyclopedia is literally this (from Wikipedia no less): An encyclopedia or encyclopaedia (also spelled encyclopædia, see spelling differences)[1] is a type of reference work or compendium holding a comprehensive summary of information from either all branches of knowledge or a particular branch of knowledge. I would point you at the words COMPREHENSIVE SUMMARY. It's fine to mention facts, but reference it back to the keep it simple, stupid principle. -2001:56A:F107:D500:5CFA:FD39:BD72:BF80 07:57, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
I can point to literally every tv show on Wikipedia as an example, as well as any comic book series and considering the format Drowtales uses to tell its story, as well as the fact that it has seasons then I don't think it would be unfair to use those as examples (though if you want book ones, look up Harry Potter or The Wheel of Time). If this was supposed to be a comprehensive summary of the series, then I'm sorry to tell you but it's actually a lot shorter than it should be. There's so many characters and story arcs that this page doesn't even begin to cover (scroll up, another anon was mad at the fact that they were omitted) to the point that its current length shouldn't be a problem. For the record I am working on making it shorter, just not at the expense of facts. -- Triacom (talk) 08:15, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
Now for your third paragraph, this page isn't just trying to communicate that it's a shitty webcomic. We do not need to summarize everything with "this is bad". If somebody wants to go into as much detail or as little detail as they want then what's wrong with letting them do that? If somebody wanted to add recaps of every single season of Drowtales then I'd be all for letting them do that, I'd just add my own things to it as well. If you want to trim the fat of the article, then go right ahead, just don't expect your deletions to remain deleted if somebody here feels you removed something important. -- Triacom (talk) 17:18, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Because length for sake of length does not mean your argument is sound or good. It just means you like to talk/type at length.-2001:56A:F107:D500:5CFA:FD39:BD72:BF80 21:49, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, and the page also covered a lot of issues and in a more in-depth way than its current revision. To break something down fully and to talk about it best you need to talk about it at length, otherwise you get what the page currently is, a page on a series that does nothing to cover the plot, the setting, most of the characters, the infamous moments or even bringing up the best examples for what the series got wrong. You're acting as if this page is only supposed to cover one aspect of this terrible series when it is not. -- Triacom (talk) 05:56, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
Again, you are conflating length with coverage. They aren't the same from an editing perspective nor a thesaurus basis. If your method of point-making comes across as skubbiness (and the length of this talk page alone implies your role in that), then consider "less is more" then.-2001:56A:F107:D500:5CFA:FD39:BD72:BF80 07:57, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Um...was...the old angry review better or something? I dont get your angry --SaltyMan (talk) 12:00, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

To apply that anon's own advice to himself, I believe he means to say "just give the basics of why it's shit while keeping it short and to the point, anyone who wants to see how deep the rabbit hole goes can do it themselves and nobody came here to watch us play armchair psychologist/philosopher even if Kern's writing is completely insane". --Newerfag (talk) 13:45, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
Yup. Started to type that, then thought, "Why should they get all the fun in spooging about something they hate? Why can't I cook up some fun too?"-2001:56A:F107:D500:5CFA:FD39:BD72:BF80 21:49, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
But that's not the point of the article. The article's about the series Newerfag, not just about it sucking. If it was only about that then I can guarantee you I'd never have tried to keep so much information there. -- Triacom (talk) 05:56, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
As a note, I'm not Newerfag. Also, you can still sum up a series of stories succinctly. This article does not, IMO.-2001:56A:F107:D500:5CFA:FD39:BD72:BF80 07:57, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
My indents were correct here, because I was replying to Newerfag, not you. An unspoken rule on this wiki is that in the event of multiple people talking, the indents show who you're talking to. In this case we were both talking to Newerfag, so we only indented twice. -- Triacom (talk) 08:15, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

I don't get this. Why read here then? This is similar to ED, though far less tame of poking-fun-department-of-Skubness. Can't we? A lot of other pages are even crazier than my rant. --SaltyMan (talk) 14:07, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

The craziness of those pages has nothing to do with the complaints being voiced, and 1d4chan isn't just ED with a /tg/ theme. Look at the articles for FATAL and Chakats if you want a better idea of how the page ought to look, as the anon earlier mentioned- despite covering equally crazy shit in their subject matter, they're able to eviscerate it with far less rambling and rage, bur without sacrificing wit and humor in the process. I've said this many times in the past, and I expect to say it even more in the future- don't use 1000 words for something when 100 words would be equally effective. You could start by cutting out the more overcomplicated parts of the plot summary or removing excess detail on the characters, for example. --Newerfag (talk) 16:05, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
But why does that need to happen? If you really want to trim something down because there's a better way to say it, then go ahead, but what's wrong with having more in-depth explanations on something? As I said to the anon, this isn't comparable to those pages because they cover a single race and not a setting and I can guarantee you that if this page was only about the drow in Drowtales, that it would only be as long or in-depth as the Kender page or the Chakat page, since at least there it would be doing the same thing as those pages. If we're just going to compare random pages then I'm going to ask why Drowtales isn't longer than the sword page. -- Triacom (talk) 17:18, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
But there's no point to having all that in-depth information if A.) most of the detail doesn't act as a strong enough support for the argument that the article is trying to make and B.) said material will be irrelevant to the people reading, who just want the snarky commentary without being bothered with shit like who's conspiring against who. Those in-depth explanations simply have no reason to be there unless you're curious enough about the comic to want to know more- and I highly doubt that such an effect is what this article is aiming for.
And I disagree about those pages not being valid comparisons- they all discuss subjects that are controversial at best outside of their devoted fanbases (assuming FATAL ever had one) and are covered in a manner that clearly illustrates all the things that's wrong with them without wasting a few thousand words dissecting every single one of those things. An excess of detail is just as bad as a deficiency of it, and this page is a good example of too much detail. Even in this very talk page I can see it- why call it "cognitive dissonance" when "hypocrisy" would be both simpler and far more accurate? It's not like we need to use fancier terms in the page just to look smart.--Newerfag (talk) 20:59, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
(Added as a response to Triacom, nearly overwrote Newerfag's posting in the process) If there's confusion on a topic, by all means, more explanation is fine (although I would first argue that that means that you need to reword your argument in the first place as it's weak). My issue, as the rager in question, is that as Newerfag so nicely caught on, the page doesn't NEED to be this long. The longer you make it, the less likely people are to read it in full and properly appreciate why it's a shitty webcomic. Here, glance through this for details, Google "How to write online" for more. You and Salty have made a simple proposition: This webcomic sucks. Good! It does. Now, why? Point-form, please. KISS principle. If you can't explain why a certain point is bad, toss it into Talk for record-keeping and discussion and pick another point (there are many). And to address your comment from above, no, no his loli fixation does not need to be covered in full. Many of his failings don't. Trust your readers to get why a loli-fixation is a Bad Thing. Plus, considering how badly 4chan and to a lesser extent /tg has/had a loli fixation of their own at time, it's comically hypocritical. Touch upon it and move on.
Also, I think you're conflating the need for a lengthy depiction of a single Drow race with the need for a lengthy depiction for the entire Drow race (or Chakat or Kender). As an example, I submit that the moment the amount of history written about the Soviet Union surpasses the amount of written history of the Russian, Ukrainian and other related races and countries, then you've skubbed up the Evil Empire a bit much, no?
And at the rate it seems to be growing while being actively trimmed, I estimate it WILL be larger than the sword page by the end of the year. We may have to break it into subpages then.-2001:56A:F107:D500:5CFA:FD39:BD72:BF80 21:49, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
That won't be necessary. I've taken the steps to refine the most important parts of the article about why it's so crappy while removing all the irrelevant tangents, so now it's a far more manageable size by far. If you have objections to what I cut out, feel free to voice them- it may be possible for me to re-add the essential gist of what was removed without repeating the original problem of "wall of text regarding shit only the drowtales fans would care about". (On an unrelated note, I looked up the values dissonance talk and technically it could be applied here in that it's arbitrary to apply human standards to a nonhuman species. However, the way it's so badly executed combined with how inherently irrational most of the in-universe explanations for said values happen to be effectively neuters the argument- it's stupid by their own standards as well as ours, unless we are to assume they are either more arrogant than the Eldar, more sadistic than the Dark Eldar, or just completely insane.) --Newerfag (talk) 22:25, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
For Newerfag, there isn't really an argument that the main page is trying to make. You're assuming the argument is that the series is bad, but that isn't the case. I've said it above and I'll say it here again, it being bad is more incidental and if it wasn't bad, I can see it getting about the same amount of explanation. Take for example the Imperium of Man page, do we try to make an argument, or are we explaining what it is? Also while we're at it, that page is too wordy and needs to be cut down because it doesn't make whatever the argument is concisely enough. For your disagreement, those other pages still cover very different things, only being one race as opposed to an entire setting and if you accept those, why isn't the sword page a good example? Also as far as the cognitive/ethical dissonance goes, I chose it over hypocrisy because it explains the situation far better, and not because it sounds smarter. No they don't mean the same thing and while you could make the argument that 'double standard' means the same thing, dissonance implies better the idea that they don't even realize there are double standards or that they're being hypocritical since it's hard to say either of those two things in as short a form while saying that they had no intentions of having a double standard or being hypocritical. -- Triacom (talk) 05:56, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
For the proxy server (at least that's what I'm guessing you're using, since I'm pretty sure those are mainly the things that give the messed up IP's), then why not keep the essential information and snark to get readers interested, and make the more in-depth stuff in a collapsible section? That keeps the page as it is at a relatively small size on first glance and anyone who wants to read further into it will have to choose to do so, rather than being bogged down the second they get to this page. Also this page wasn't really meant to just be about how the webcomic sucks, it was supposed to explain various aspects of the setting as well as some of the more infamous events (I am omitting the child rape, that's something I'd rather not put in) and in its current form the page doesn't do that. I really think you're making the wrong assumption about what was intended based on what you've written. Also it's not hypocritical for a wiki to call something out that its forum might have been into, especially when most users of the wiki are against it, and considering how many various users are on that board, it would only be hypocritical if a previous user there was into it, then decried it as you can't hold an entire userbase accountable for the actions of some of the members. -- Triacom (talk) 05:56, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
No, it's just shitty Canadian telcom stupidity, although I will respond to 'Proxy' if you want. The collapsible thing is an option, but it doesn't entirely satisfy my desire for shorter, pithier sections. Having now read the Bad Webcomics Wiki entry (which is, yes, far more in depth and also better written, but also is an article on a dedicated wiki about these sorts of things), I feel you can trim their wordiness down even further, and make something far more tg-ish in nature. Yes, I know that's not very useful potentially, since I'm trying to sum up an attitude towards writing and explanation that's been jacked from a sub-board of a more-or-less defunct imageboard (well, undead, maybe. IMO, it certainly needs a length of wood inserted somewhere...), but I feel you CAN do it, Triacom. Mentioning the child-rape, is in fact, something I AM fine with. Because having glanced through the comics referencing it, it's just plain bad writing there too. Tropastically bad, in fact. And I don't find anything wrong with calling it out either (although holding a group of people liable for a few members of their society is highly traditional; see Hitler/Germany, Pol Pot/Cambodia, Lenin/Stalin/Putin/Russia, more or less every American president...and that's usually their own citizens tarring and feathering them too, The Radical Right, The Radical Left, The Greens, pretty much every religion, and so on), instead I think it's a good thing. It acknowledges that there have been and are differences of opinion that may become issues in the future. But it still feels...overburdened. Too wordy. Oh, and thanks for the reminder about the indentions earlier on; I am aware of it, I just misread the attribution entirely. My bad.-2001:56A:F107:D500:5CFA:FD39:BD72:BF80 08:47, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
As I said before, if you want to make it shorter yourself, feel free (just expect further edits if we feel you added/removed too much). I might later, I might not, right now I'm not sure what I'd do to cover the same points with fewer words (maybe cut down on the mentions of slavery across the page) but I'd also like to point out that even the badcomics coverage only covers the general series and doesn't cover plot points or massive character arcs. In other words they've done what we're doing here, but with a lot more words. Sure it's better written, but if you're fine with that length there and not this length here, then maybe it's not the length that bothers you, perhaps it's the writing in general. For the record too if I was to add tg-ish things to this page then it would only make it longer, and until people stop going on about the length of the page I'm simply not going to do that (I even deleted some of them before because some people were arguing that unnecessary bits should be removed from the page). For the record that also includes adding the child rape, it's simply not going to happen until people decide the page isn't too long anymore. -- Triacom (talk) 08:56, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Too much deleted.[edit]

Sorry Newerfag, but you simply cut too much away. You did a decent enough job with most things before the characters (I'd rather the drow were called out more on their bullshit but I'll take this I guess) however you can't remove Kiel'ndia as she's a terrible addition to the series and is one of the most annoying things about it. Likewise you shouldn't remove Naal'suul or the mentions of the other characters that travel with Ariel (shorten Naal'suul's entry if you will, but don't remove it). Removing the Hope Spotted section however is simply unacceptable. Not only did you miss Vaelia's bio (which now makes no sense) but Vaelia is easily the biggest example of why Drowtales sucks as hard as it does, and why/how it squanders golden opportunities. Removing the In Summary section also shouldn't be done, or at least the information about how the fans and developers hand-wave away the issues should be moved elsewhere, which you didn't do. I don't hate them like SaltyMan does, but given the image they made to try and explain away how the Drow aren't evil (which doesn't work, since even if Drow don't have human morals, as humans we have human morals, and by human morals the Drow are evil) and refusal to accept their favourite race as evil, removing them does the page a disservice. You also shouldn't have removed the bit about what happened to the humans on the Drow planet during Day(wet)dream. By the way, Drowtales is edgy as hell, so linking that page at the bottom makes a lot of sense. -- Triacom (talk) 05:23, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Oh, you also cut out the bit about what they did with the human settlement. That needs to go back in. It's easily one of the most infamous parts of this entire series and you cannot leave it out. Leaving it out here would be like not mentioning Grey Knights when somebody asks about some of the things Matt Ward did poorly. -- Triacom (talk) 05:26, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

If anything, I wonder if I cut out too little. This isn't the Bad Webcomics Wiki, which has incidentally made an exponentially better version of this page as SaltyMan himself admitted. Nevertheless, I concede those points enough to make mention of them as needed. Now, everyone should just stop adding shit, anything else at this point is a useless burden. --Newerfag (talk) 07:08, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
The page length didn't change and if you'd looked at my edit you'd have seen that! Could you explain to me why words are scary? The length wasn't an issue thanks to those collapsible sections, my main page was about as long, if not slightly shorter than yours and I'm willing to bet you didn't even read it before you hit that undo button did you?
Considering you want to keep this short, explain to me where in your edit you say that the elves have a different culture compared to the drow. Explain Vaelia's character. Explain the missed opportunities of the setting. Explain to me that bit about the human village (it is mentioned on your page, your mess of an edit didn't remove it). Why are you so scared of having words that don't make the basic page any longer? -- Triacom (talk) 07:22, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
"...what is it with people here and their addiction to irrelevant detail?" I wasn't aware that explaining a setting was an irrelevant detail in a page about explaining a setting. For a serious answer though, as far as I'm aware most of us are 40k players, or at least Warhammer players. Discussing details is a main thing that happens on this wiki, and it's also something I do with my gaming group since new codices usually give us the same stuff but with the details changed around, so you simply learn to pay more attention to those and it kind of bleeds into other things you do and write. -- Triacom (talk) 07:28, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
As I tried to explain, there is a point where the detail stops being helpful and starts being overwhelming, especially to those who neither love or hate the subject matter. I was paring it down so the key points that said detail was trying to make remained, even though not every single element of the setting was dissected. More importantly, why should we waste time elaborating on a setting which is objectively terrible- did we bother to do that for Neveria in FATAL's page? Details should have a good reason for being on the page, and if the generalities serve an identical purpose then the details are nothing more than an unnecessary burden good only for boring readers. --Newerfag (talk) 07:31, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
But removing key points doesn't help at all, and explaining them poorly isn't helpful either. As I stated before your edits left in mentions of the human village and said that the page would get to it later, but it never actually did because you deleted one of the most infamous scenes. You also deleted all of Vaelia's character while leaving her description as saying that she'd be covered later. If you really want to shorten it go ahead, but you can't just delete points like that in the interest of keeping it short, that would be like me deleting the Matt Ward timeline on his page because him being an unfavourable writer was already established (or deleting the living conditions in the Imperium page because it's already said once that it sucks to live there). For the record I don't think my edit's perfect, and I fully expected it to get edited, I just didn't expect it to get butchered to the point that critical information was outright removed. -- Triacom (talk) 07:39, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
Kiel'ndia is annoying, but her story arc made sense.-- 05:37, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
You know what? Everybody leave the page alone, I'm going to edit it again in a way that'll have everyone happy and (hopefully) bring this editwar to a close. -- Triacom (talk) 06:25, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
There. I've edited the page so that all of the specific information that only somebody who really wants to know is out of sight for everyone else. Now the main page is slightly longer than the Chakat page while being shorter than the Kender page. Hopefully this makes everyone happy since now it's not so wordy for new viewers while losing no information for the older viewers. -- Triacom (talk) 07:15, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
I still insist you completely missed the point in that there's no reason for that specific information to even be on the page at all, but I know you and SaltyMan will bitch incessantly if I try to demonstrate how it ought to be written instead so I'll just try to salvage what you've got. Still, I urge you to consider the possibility that just because you can put it on the page doesn't mean the page actually benefits from your doing so. Say more with less- why is that so difficult to understand? --Newerfag (talk) 07:26, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
And why isn't there need for that stuff to be on the page? As I said before, this isn't just a page stating why Drowtales is bad, if it was I'd have made your massive deletions for you. I'd also like to point out that I said I was in favour of a lot of your edits, and I've also said that if you find a way to say the same thing with fewer words then I'm all for it. It's also why I incorporated some of your edits into mine and shaved off about ~4000 bytes, and why I'm not going to delete your edit which was changed by about ~2000 bytes. -- Triacom (talk) 07:30, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
By the way, please don't try and claim the moral high ground, as you come off as pretentious when you say you know how the page 'should be written'. I too can claim to know how the page should be written, and I know that you and the anon would just bitch incessantly if I try and demonstrate that, so I'm trying to meet you in the middle. I did mention above that Drowtales wasn't the only page that lacks the same style as kender and chakats, once again I'll point out the Imperium of Man. If kender and chakats are how pages are supposed to be written, then why isn't the Imperium of Man page written like that? -- Triacom (talk) 07:35, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
More precisely, those were examples of what pages about things that are skub or shit should be like. Otherwise it sounds like hate being spewed for hate's sake, and we have Encyclopedia Dramatica for that. Do you want to sound like you're just the opposite extreme of the fantards? Because when I read through the original article, that's exactly how it came off as. Now if the Imperium of Man was as badly written as Drowtales is, you'd have a point, but the difference is that it isn't badly written and is also several degrees more complex than a setting of Mary Sues in a crap webcomic. In short, it doesn't deserve the degree of detail that the Imperium's page has. (Oh, and speaking of pretentiousness, I'll note that I had no clue what values dissonance even was until I looked it up- if using fancy terms for no reason like that isn't pretentious, I don't know what is.) --Newerfag (talk) 07:41, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
I never got involved in this thing until the editwar started, and now I'm trying to end it in a way that every party ends up happy. Give me a little more time and I'll prove to you that it is possible to edit down the main page without a massive loss in detail like the one you did (I'm editing it now). For the record with the dissonance though, as stated before I used it because it fit the situation better. Hypocrisy implies intent, Dissonance implies ignorance and it takes more time to state that the fanbase and characters aren't aware of how hypocritical everything is than to just write something like 'ethical dissonance'. -- Triacom (talk) 07:57, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
Not really, because you can just call them idiots. Besides, "ethical dissonance" is an equally technical term- if someone has to look up what a term means just to understand it, you shouldn't be using it. --Newerfag (talk) 13:26, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
But that hardly carries the same meaning. Personally I fail to see what's so wrong about expanding somebody else's vocabulary when the words fit the situation, just like I fail to see why it;'s bad to cover the basic plot in a page about the setting. If this page really was meant to be a comprehensive summary of the series as a whole, then no joke it would easily be as long as the 40k page since Drowtales is really long and a lot of garbage happens in it. -- Triacom (talk) 18:45, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
If you look at the setting now, you'll see I've done what you've wanted. It's no longer a massive blurb, instead it's kept to precise points and if the page was made more like that then I don't think anyone would have any issues with it. -- Triacom (talk) 08:07, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
I've now also shortened up Vaelia's character too. Overall the page itself is now quite a lot shorter without losing the facts. If you want to make it shorter but retain the same information, be my guest. -- Triacom (talk) 08:24, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
If Vaelia is your favorite character, you shall rejoice - she and her family are back in the newest chapter. This page would warm your hearts, because Ariel gets boot to her face, how cute!
Either drow suffer from really severe snow blindness, or Valeria's son got really good training. --Justalurker (talk) 01:35, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Sorry to tell you but at this point Drowtales is not going to win me over. There's so much garbage early on that even if the next 10 chapters were literary masterpieces it would still be a really bad comic. -- Triacom (talk) 01:42, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Rejoice in the Skub![edit]

In related news, as of right now, this Talk page is at about 86k words characters (derp). The Drowtales page at Bad Webcomics Wiki is about 32k. Rejoice in the skub, fa/tg/uys and ca/tg/irls! We should rightly feel proud of this, as it's in the best traditions of TG and 1d4chan. Can we skub it like the best of them? Yes, we can! -2001:56A:F107:D500:5CFA:FD39:BD72:BF80 08:53, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

That's nothing. If you want to see true skub you should look at the discussion page for the Damocles Crusade (I really should collapse that one someday). On the plus side it means that the main page is 11k shorter than the other wiki. -- Triacom (talk) 08:59, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

God Bless You, You bastards.[edit]

Saltyman here. Finally we agreed on a good enough and less ranty page. God bless you all faggots, even you Newerfag. It is nearly perfect, though it could use a bit of hyperlink jokes like Tvtropes or ED, it's become good. Now I should really share this in Drowtales forum, especially to that pedophiliac psychopath Kern, whaddya think? :D --SaltyMan (talk) 17:58, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

They already know about it, and are laughing at the nerd rage.
Nerd rage of one salty nerd that does not know when to quit.-- 18:11, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
Good. Good. Let the butthurt flow through you. --SaltyMan (talk) 22:02, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
My words were not understood. Well... Fuck.--SaltyMan (talk) 22:08, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
OK, I'm going in. I really have to go in. I'm unloading all the trolling there tomorrow, especially the members' edginess and lack of working neurons. The guys still think we didn't like the weakness of the humans at the surface town attack. These people are completely, and utterly brain damaged. --SaltyMan (talk) 22:15, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
>puts 1000 points about why the plot is hypocritical and to enjoy the broken character immersion is impossible
>haha lol but its not like that, Humans can reproduce faster and dont need mana, so Humans aren't unbalanced.
This shit makes me want to grab one and scream in their ear. Are they acting intentionally like a mental handicapped person? No idea.--SaltyMan (talk) 22:26, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
Geez, and I thought I was the autistic one here. Although I'm not entirely surprised that they went into full denial mode- what did you expect they would do, agree wholeheartedly and admit they've been flushing money down the toilet for porn they could easily get for free? (Who are we kidding, nobody reads that for the plot.) As for trolling...well, good luck with that but you had better have a proxy or three at the ready. Or just have someone hack the page, odds are that'll fuck their shit up ten times harder than any trolling.--Newerfag (talk) 06:17, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
I've seen fandoms like this before (check out DarksydePhil if you want to find a scumbag with a shockingly devoted fanbase and a much larger anti-fanbase) so I'm not surprised that they've got their heads so far up their asses that they cannot figure out why something is bad, or even understand what you're arguing about. -- Triacom (talk) 07:19, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Well screw hacking, I'm shocked that a person could not understand what we are talking. It's not the scale of power, grimdark and depression. It's the shocking Moral Myopia and utterly brain dead lack of comprehending, which everyone wrote here a plenty, and not the mary sue.. jesus. I'll handle this in a few hours. I need a shisha. --SaltyMan (talk) 09:30, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
I'm sure they understand just fine, but the thing is that they just don't care. They just see the characters they like (what's likable about them, I can't imagine) being "badass" and don't waste time thinking about the details. Especially when they could just be jacking off to lesbian drow. As for the moral myopia, the thing you have to remember is that in the eyes of the average fandom, if the designated heroes do it then it must be right- any real-world ethical considerations are simply irrelevant. People like you and me are just thinking too much about it, as far as they're concerned.--Newerfag (talk) 16:18, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
I should write a venomous post to the thread. What should I focus on... hmmmm -- 16:38, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
May as well go all out, since they'll A.) not listen to whatever it is you're trying to say no matter how many good points it makes and B.) you'll probably get banned for some bullshit reason due to them not wanting to hear you point out those flaws. May as well point out that there's plenty of much better drow lesbian porn out there that they don't need to pay 7 dollars a month to see.--Newerfag (talk) 16:41, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Do you want a comprehensive summary?[edit]

I've been thinking about this while at work, but do you, Newerfag and anon, really want this page to be a comprehensive summary of the webcomic? If you don't, then please say what you'd like it to be, and if you do, well here it is. Take a look at the size of the pages on that wiki and add them together. Furthermore, take a look at just the story events on that wiki. Even if we assume that 50% of it could be removed, it's far bigger than this page because Drowtales isn't a short series by any means, nor is it a shallow one (in terms of shitty plot/characters only).

I'm asking this because I don't want complaints of 'Too long!' To come up again, as simply saying the page is too long without saying why and/or without trying to shorten it yourself isn't very helpful, especially when a comprehensive summary would make this page far longer. If you think an element is repeated too much, then say so. If you think that a certain point's already been covered enough, say so. Saying it's too long is putting a stranglehold on it that means we can't add extra running commentary on anything and it prevents us from adding other egregious events (like the child thing). In other words anon, the reason this page doesn't have that '/tg/-ness' that you want, is because adding that would make the page 'too long'. -- Triacom (talk) 07:17, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

That wiki is an official wiki that alleviates no problems. It has no self-awareness either. I have never found it a useful resource for understanding what is going on with the content.-- 15:07, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I'd prefer that it be more of a basic summary that goes over the basic plot and characters as well as its major flaws. While it's not perfect in its current state, it will do for now. --Newerfag (talk) 16:08, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
In that case Newerfag, this page cannot be the comprehensive summary you wanted it to be. Since you want it to be a basic summary then what constitutes 'too long' to you? -- Triacom (talk) 17:15, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
I never said I wanted a comprehensive summary, but a basic one. As in, general overview of characters, plot, stupidity, etc., without wasting time on detail that would likely only be appreciated by the fans of the comic. For example, the Vaelia bit could have some of the detail pared down; we don't need know why she was locked up in a cage, only that she was. The fairy crushing thing is stupid, but the article aready established that drow are assholes despite being the nominal protagonists. Some of the stuff about dwarves is redundant since it pretty much says they're fantasy terrorists twice in the same sentence. Basically, if something can be taken out without weakening the overall point of the section it's in, then you should do so. Seeing as I am naturally inclined to err on the side of shortness, I will leave it to you to decide what is and isn't necessary.--Newerfag (talk) 21:11, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
That's going to be tricky. If we wanted to summarize the plot points and why they suck, the plot alone (even the most basic of summaries) would be longer than the entire page itself. Like I said before there's so much story to cover that this page is going to get blown up a lot by covering it and as such I'm loathe to add any of it if there's still this general idea that the article's too long. Also my mistake, I thought you and the anon both wanted a comprehensive summary when it was just them. -- Triacom (talk) 22:28, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
As a positive thing though, thanks for the examples of how to shorten it, that's the kind of constructive criticism I like to see. -- Triacom (talk) 22:30, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
I don't want one.-- 00:07, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Why not? If you used the time and attention you spent arguing on this talk page on the main page, there could be comprehensive summary of the whole DT with detailed reasons why it is all wrong from the beginning to the end. The page would be longer than page and no one would ever read it, but no one would ever read this talk page either. --Justalurker (talk) 01:25, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

I don't think I have been arguing that much. I just want Salty to stop.-- 01:44, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Why, because suddenly we are starting to make sense? --SaltyMan (talk) 07:53, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
No.-- 18:09, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Yes. :) --SaltyMan (talk) 05:50, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

100k long page? Admit it, you love Drowtales.[edit]

It is time to admit it. If you are spending so much time and space debating how much you hate something, you love it.

You love Drowtales. You hate loving Drowtales and love hating Drowtales. You cannot live without Drowtales and cannot live with Drowtales. Becasue Drowtales are life, and Drowtales are love.

Peace and ... love ;-).

--Justalurker (talk) 01:46, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

The argument on the Damocles Crusade page about Mont'ka went on for ~500,000 characters, that doesn't mean Mont'ka isn't a massive piece of shit thought shouldn't be lit on fire. I do admit that I love hating Drowtales though, and that's because it fell into the trap of continuing when it should have ended. If they ended it, then when they remade it they could have fixed the main issues and explained away a lot of the problems, but they didn't, instead they just kept on piling on new loads of garbage until that's all the series was (this is a trap that other series have fallen into as well, see Naruto or Bleach). -- Triacom (talk) 01:50, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
So you say DT was once good (or less bad)? HERESY! Wait for the Salty Inquisition to arrive...
When it should have ended, in your opinion? When Arc One of story ended or earlier?
--Justalurker (talk) 02:03, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
It shouldn't have started. They're an embarrassment to the real Drow. You know, the spider-obsessed ones who don't need justifications to be assholes and have a massive bitch as their patron goddess. --Newerfag (talk) 02:35, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
You need to dig up the original version from year 2001, Chronicles of Drow Sorceress. This was set in DnD world, with Lolth, spiders, rape, torture, blood sacrifices and all that makes Drow Drowish. This is exactly what you wanted. --Justalurker (talk) 04:51, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
So why did they change it then, fear of being sued by WoTC?--Newerfag (talk) 06:23, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
That's new to me, and it also sounds a lot better than what they've currently got. I wonder why they decided to change it. -- Triacom (talk) 05:51, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
No, it was never good, but at least if it was short, or even decently sized, then it might have been salvageable when the remake came around. I honestly can't pick when it should have ended as those endings would all be too abrupt, but they should have gone the Drizzt route of keeping Ariel underground for a while then drop it off when she went to the surface. -- Triacom (talk) 04:12, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

Just looked at and it is indeed awesome. And it is work of Triacom and one other guy. You are the true Kings of Skub.If only I had your patience, I would use it on even more pointless things ;-) --Justalurker (talk) 04:51, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

On the plus side, so long as you've got the patience to read it, it'll go over pretty much all the problems of the modern depiction of the Tau, and it took almost an entire month to write. -- Triacom (talk) 05:51, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
Next time you think something is loved because its being picked and analyzed, think of Godwin's law, Third Reich and Serial Killers, JustaDTfanboi. Troll harder. --SaltyMan (talk) 07:52, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Drowtales *could* be good if Ariel or some character would realize that their life is full of hypocrisy and self destructive stupidity, and would finally ask her musclegirl stepmom to organize an alliance of less-asshole Drow and maybe some human deriveratives for a stable realm. Or keep the oldschool evil and do away the technology, making slavery and raids necessary to sustain luxury, just like Roman Empire.--SaltyMan (talk) 07:56, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Also surprising to hear "love" from an edgy bitchboi that faps to drow slaves getting blasted,raped,mutilated into dragons and put to deathmatch arenas, owned by Drow who sacrifice girls to Sharess who was supposed to be a kind sorceress-savior... Here's a tip in life. Edginess and waving away logic dissonance does not grow your dick or score you girls. If anything, it ruins your resume, future and relationships with healthy people. --SaltyMan (talk) 10:56, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
I'm certain he's just fucking with you to get a reaction, ignore him. --Newerfag (talk) 12:35, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
'sok. I transcended the rage the moment I realized I wasn't alone realizing this was a shitty comic. And his attacks are ineffective. --SaltyMan (talk) 12:49, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Beta pages.[edit]

So here's something I think we can benefit from, when you want to make a new massive change to the front page, like expanding on the characters/story/controversy, why not post it in a collapsible segment here? That way we can agree on whether or not it's a good idea without users editing the main page to be what they want before coming here to talk. Post it here and if nobody objects for a day or two, add it to the main page. -- Triacom (talk) 04:39, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

That sounds like a good idea, and should be used for pretty much every other page that people are bickering about as well. --Newerfag (talk) 06:22, 23 April 2017 (UTC)