Talk:Endhammer

General Dicusssion

More Ideas on Why Skaven Got Screwed

While the civil war over the new council is a good start, I feel the Skaven really need to, to put in bluntly, be SUPER fucked over to properly counteract how god tier the faction became during the End Times. I had a few ideas, but one I wanted to talk about involves the Horned Rat. The idea was that Thanquol (or any grey seer hero really) could have noticed the large city size chunks of warpstone showering down from the blown up moon and realized it could be key to achieve almost unlimited power. Of cause, absorbing the magical properties from such huge quantities of warpstone would make the white rat explode, but with the Horned Rat walking amongst them, a new opportunity would present itself. With the Skaven's connection to their diety, a god that now walked amongst the living, the connection could be magically hijacked and used to store the magical energize of the warp stone, basically using the deity as a power energy which one could tap into. Now that sounds very stupid and insane...Which is the point. It goes horribly wrong, resulting in the caster and the Horned Rat vanishing in a flash on green light.

Now I know what you're thinking. What does this ACTUALLY accomplish? Two things actually. First, when the civil war began over the new council naturally the Horned Rat would step in whether in person or in visions to tell the Skaven to get their heads back in the game and take over the world yet if he suddenly vanished just when the conflict started, the ensuring panic would only escalate the conflict. Second, it's quite possible that, after some time, a rumor could begin circling around that the Horned Rat has either died or abandoned the Skaven race. Instead, he has been replaced by a new Deity, the Great White Horned Rat (I like the idea that the fact the Horned Rat's fur was always white doesn't even cross the cultist's mind) a god that is almost identical in every way. Of cause many Skaven would find worshiping such a god appealing since they might give blessings and gifts where the old god did not, resulting in new cults popping up all over the Skaven Empire. This would threaten the Grey Seer's powerbase, forcing them to stamp out these cults wherever they appear much like the Empire and Chaos Cults. This could result in internal Clan civil wars further weakening the Skaven putting them on a more equal footing to the other factions.

Does anyone like the idea? Does anything need improving? What aspects could be taken for the fiction and what should be caste aside?

The idea of replacing the Horned Rat with The Horned Rat 2: Electric Boogaloo is pretty funny. I like it.--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 04:58, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

There is already a built in way for the Skaven to fight amongst themselves. (Though honestly, the fact they are Skaven is enough reason.) Clan Pestilence was at war with the rest of the Skaven once before, and it could be fitting that they have crafted their own god now that they believe stronger than the Great Horned Rat, and now venerate their god new god, as The Great Plague Rat.

Gotrek & Felix Discussion

Don't read on if you haven't yet read the last Gotrek & Felix novel and care about spoilers. Two questions: -How to resolve the last Gotrek & Felix book with Endhammer? -Should we do something with Felix?--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 21:05, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

Update:Map

Added a map of the Old World with political divisions. Let me know what you think.--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 04:07, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

On Changes

Thinking of putting in some ideas for TK and lesser figures from older Warhammer lore who were forgotten in ET. Should ideas for changes be put here in Discussion, or applied directly to the page with any that are disapproved of being put back as others see fit? An idea I had was that since Sea Elves were a single group back in the day which was seperate from High Elves, making one of the distant fortresses a fourth Elf group (using words from the High Elf dictionary in High Elf Heraldry, the Sendai or Nadrur seem appropriate) under that name which can operate independently and have vague fluff for others (by which I mean players, for "Your Dudes" potential) expand on. Also, are the Elf gods remaining dead? If so then maybe uplifting a new pantheon is an idea. Like the transition from Titans to Gods in Greek myth. --Thannak (talk) 20:53, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

I am excited by the prospect of a new pantheon, but that may be drifting too far into the realm of... just making up random bullshit. Which we've gotten very close to with the Indish Beastmen. I would prefer to new additions to be discussed either here or in /tg/ before being added (so you can get pushback or support). /tg/ is probably the best for dealing with TK and lesser figures, as you'll get opinions from non-Endhammer people, too. A few additions have been made (like the Inheritor and a change to the Automaton statline without discussion -- and it's a bit odd).--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 00:41, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

Suggestions

please don't fuck over ind so badly.guys, come on. did you guys really have to fuck up people of ind so badly.they got the worst status of any faction in the setting.

if you guys wouldn't mind here is a idea how the story of ind could take place.

as the southern cathay provinces were striped of their armies to strenghten the northern armies in order to expel the invading forces of chaos,orc and skaven. the kings of ind sensing opportunity gathered a massive army and launched a surprise attack on the undefended cathaian southern underbelly but the chin emporer anticipated this move and directed a mountain size warp stone to fall upon the army of ind as it attempted to cross the chimal pass in the mountains of heavens.the warp mountain destroys the armies of ind and closed the only pass between cathay and ind.saving cathay from fighting another foe.

seeing the armies of ind destroyed the beastmen launch the biggest invasion of ind in history. vast herds of beastmen attacked all the major human cities and villages.entire citties fell before they even know what is happening and soon it seemed the destruction of the people of ind was at hand but help came from the most unlikeliest of benefactors, the skaven.

the skaven had orchestrated both the destruction of the armies of ind by the cathayan emporer and the invasion of the beastmen.so when they saw both of these powers had been weakned by the war and would be easy picking they attacked but soon they found out they had attacked too soon for both the humans and the beastmen still had a lot of fighting left in then and so the war continues and will continue till other 2 powers have been compeletly destroyed.

• A double-suggestion - What about writing a paragraph or three about how this new broken world create new opportunities for new heroes, mercenaries and villians to emerge, who are not involved in fighting battles between the factions, but use the broken state of the world to clear out a new life for themselves. Adventuring parties with heroes from many factions roam the lands in search of coin, fame, relics or simple do-good, trying to help a wounded world, while Warbands of mercs or ne'er-do-wells stand in their way.

Basically: Your adventure, with your miniatures, using simple rules (Age of Sigmar-like, for example). You want a merc band with humans, Ogres and Necromancers? You got it. Aspiring Chaos Sorcerer's retinue of warriors and acolytes, out to find new knowledge? All there.

This retains the ability to play the simple games of Age of Sigmar (which attracts some people to the setting), while allowing for Your Dudes and building a setting around it. TheWiseDane (talk) 19:01, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

• 'Olaf Godhater Rules'

Olaf Godhater, the Norscan of Salkalten (WIP - Help Required)

• An Empire Army with Olaf Godhater may take an Exalted Hero (Olaf), Chaos Marauders (Special), Chaos Marauder Horsemen (Special), and Chariots (Rare).
  • If the Exalter Hero is your general, Chaos Marauders are a Common choice.
  • Exalted Hero (Olaf) may buy Plate Armor for X points
  • Marauders may buy Heavy Armor for X Points
• Empire-Aligned Marauders do not get access to Chaos gifts
• Hatred (Monsters) replaces Eye of the Gods
• 'Special Rules'
  • "Disciples of the Old Gods" replace Marks of Chaos
    • Disciple of Ursun (Points cost?): Devastating Charge
    • Disciple of Ulric (Points cost?): Immunity to "Always strikes last"
    • Disciple of Tor (Points cost?): Grant the Lightning special skill Dragon Ogres have (not sure on this one)
    • Disciple of Taal (Points cost?): Foreststrider

-question, is any more work going to be done on this or has everyone involved lost interest?--Tw6464 (talk) 02:19, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Well, I'm back out of boredom, but this is a year and a half later!

question regarding Norscan of Salkalten - why is he not Harry the Hammer? He's mentioned as having a propensity for killing the living dead aka undead, not to mention he's got loyal followers. in addition, he wouldn't have died to Vlad in Middenheim, so I think it's a no-brainer. Plus it would lead to interesting interactions with Vlad due to him being an elector count now.--Tw6464 (talk) 15:56, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Bretonnia

Bretonnia Discussion

How devastating should Bretonnia's destruction be, given the civil war with Malobaud and Arkhan's fuckery?--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 14:08, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Not a common user so I don't know the format for these discussions at all but would it not be prudent to revisit the idea of Lileath not actually being the Lady, or post End Times the Lady taking a life of her own? After reading discussion after discussion on Knights of the Round forums, the biggest dissatisfaction with Bretonnonia during the End Times story was the completely inconstant portrayal of the Lady both from previous fluff and her appearances between the various end times books. Expanding on or adding doubt to Lileath's claims would be worth some discussion.

For the record, hit the Signature sign so people know who you are when you say something! As for Lileath, our decision so far to handle Lileath/Lady has been to... brush it under the rug and try to ignore what people didn't like. Essentially, Gilles le Breton knows, but he keeps it hidden from the rest of Bretonnia because he believes keeping their faith in the Lady will be more useful in the long run and telling them the truth will only hurt a weak Bretonnia.--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 02:01, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

I understand that is how you are currently explaining it. I suppose what I was trying to say was the Lady being Lilieath at all was something no one likes. Given who she is post End Times, and her world being created what more need does she have of Bretonnia? Why would she continue to grant the Kingdom her blessing, or go along with the whole charade now that her stated reasons for tricking Bretonnia are largely fulfilled? It might be for the better to cut out Lileath as explicitly being the Lady and in fact remove any and continue her mystery. Another question is since Gilles as the Green Knight was often the tester of Questing Knights before they supped from the Grail, who would continue that roll into the future now that Gilles is running the show back home? --Darker Sheep (talk) 13:01, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

When looking at how to change things, it has to be plot progression VS GW's attempt to close all plotlines in a paragraph or so. Lileath being 100% certainty to be the Lady was part of their effort to end all dubiousness regarding the Brets, WElves, and the lingering HElf god plots so they could get back to Archaon killing the Empire faster. So if the world is going on, the question must be "Does this progress the setting or end a story?" and "Does this story need to end, or just have another chapter added to the end of it?". The way I see it there should be importance placed on if this adds potential storytelling or not. It could be interesting if Lileath was slowly building another world, being the Old One of it in secret. We've already done away with Lileath killing Isha, considering Ariel is still going on. There's still some debate on how the Khaine thing would go, and whether Lileath even keeps on going as an important character is dependent on that. The Lady still needs to exist in some manner for the Grail to remain part of Bret culture let alone keep empowering the options in the army, unless they replace it with some other thing that grants them power. So in the end I guess the Bret discussion is reliant on the Elf discussion. Which unfortunately is a bit Skubby and not likely to be resolved until someone puts their foot down and decides the way its going to be. Although I'd like to put forth the idea of the Lady being the Green Knight's wife, and give it a Mary Magdalene kind of feel. --Thannak (talk) 19:59, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

That is a fair point I suppose. The Elven pantheon not being figured out for this does throw its connections in the human world off quite a bit. I'm interested in how this could be resolved, but I'm still convinced that sometimes perhaps it's better to leave things unexplained when you don't have a satisfactory explanation to a mystery.--Darker Sheep (talk) 22:40, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Personally, I thought it was always pretty obvious that the Lady was some kind of elven creation or deity. So the Lileath = The Lady bit never surprised me. The Wood Elves were always semi-divine fairies/monsters to the Bretonnians. So, I say Lileath = the Lady. But why do we need to keep the dumbass reasoning with the "creating a new pantheon"? We can change Khaine. We can ignore GW's weirdness (making a pantheon with... humans?) Could be that Lileath just shows favor to humans as well as elves and isn't a racist when it comes to accruing followers. Or, Lileath saw the benefit of having a human wall of flesh (empowered by her blessings) in the way of Athel Loren to keep the Orcs, Norscans, Beastmen, and other monsters in check.--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 02:36, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

That is a fair point. To be honest I think it works better that she is at least somewhat caring for Bretonnia and is not just using them as a meat shield. She genuinely seems to care Louen Lencour in End Times Glotkin, so it's not completely beyond reason that Lileath has some true affection for the people and the nobles of the country. It'd be nice to see the Brets don't have a completely false faith.--Darker Sheep (talk) 00:44, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Also who came up with Duchess Frederique? As interesting as a female knight and duchess is there are a lot of implications from what information has been given. Is she a lesbian? Is her wife a lesbian? Did she and her wife know each other before her wife was kidnapped by Beastmen? It'd be one hell of a coin flip to have them not know each other before hand, marry and then the duke's niece realize her husband was actually a woman, but then also turn out to be into chicks or is so smitten that she suddenly becomes bi. On top of that she also seems to be given a lot of lore making her super benevolent and able to work with refugees of different races with none of the setting's characteristic prejudices. My point is that she seems fairly mary sue. I think there are some good ideas in here, with a woman raised as a boy becomes duchess. Hell you can even have her be a lesbian. She just needs a bit more fleshing out if you're going to go this way with the character because right now she is pretty special snowflake.--Darker Sheep (talk) 14:35, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Someone on the /tg/ page came up with most of these Duke stories. I was not and am not a fan of the Frederique story. But I wasn't about to just dismiss an idea out of hand. I wanted some more reactions until I made a decision.--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 02:33, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

So I guess that brings me to another question. I can't find any other place aside from here that this is being discussed though there seems to be a lot of information that is being discussed and put on here. I checked /tg/ on 4chan and 8chan and couldn't find any pages discussing this. Is there some kind of link or direction someone can give so I could contribute a bit more to the discussion.--Darker Sheep (talk) 03:10, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Also curious. There was Endhammer threads for awhile, but they never really went anywhere. The Warhammer Fantasy community on /tg/ seems really divided so both WarhamFan and AoS threads aren't even reaching autosage anymore, with Endhammer split between them. --Thannak (talk) 05:06, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Huh. I didn't even know Endhammer had seeped into AoS. I've only ever discussed endhammer in the /tg/ Warhammer Fantasy General threads. I've been loathe to create Endhammer-dedicated threads. If they have existed, I didn't even know about it! (Sorry -- forgot to say this is AU9 Dude)--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 18:20, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Fair enough, but this seems to be a slightly inefficient method of discussion. What I'm curious about is if you think there is a more efficient method of discussion about Endhammer because I really want to contribute to it. I like the idea you have going on.--Darker Sheep (talk) 20:03, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Enlighten me! Where would you prefer for it to take place? Is /tg/ not good enough?--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 21:54, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

I mean I don't know if /tg/ is a bad forum for it, I just never see posts about it when I look through 4chan and 8chan. I guess with that information I suppose I can do most of my discussion right here. I'll start working on some stuff for Bretonnia... see if I can fix Duchess Fredrique. Make her less of a mary sue.--Darker Sheep (talk) 04:21, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

I mean, the Warhammer Fantasy General thread on /tg/ was entirely filled with Wood Elf Endhammer discussion. You just need to look more often. In addition, I'd be for removing Duchess Frederique. If you've got another idea to replace her.--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 22:23, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Bretonnian Character Discussion

Status of Dukes of Bretonnia at the time of Endtimes.

-L'Anguille - Duke Taubert - cool dude who kills beastmen inland, but has lost most influence with his growing port city. Interesting if he died and the merchants managed to mess with the succession for more power.

-Aquitaine - Duke Armand he was known for Questing in Disguise, being Standard Bearer of Bretonnia - he had only held his position for 3 years and was still learning the non-fighting ropes.

-Artois - Duke Chilfroy - Huge dude with little that interests him aside from crumping beastmen. He could live, or if he died, might be neat to see Larret as Duke. ACTUALLY, there was an adventure prompt that suggested that Chilfroy wasn't fighting beastmen in the forest, but allying with them, and that this could lead to his downfall.

-Bastonne - Bohemond - The best monster killer. Rode to help out Empire during SoC, so probably did too during end times. Is actually descendant of Gilles, so it would be hilarious for him to live with his ancestor back and technically outranking him - still, he would probably willingly give up the Dukedom. He much prefers finding the biggest baddie and wrecking it.

-Bordeleaux - Alberic - The one sober guy in a province of drunks, and makes all his knights suffer sobriety too. He is getting older and is worried that he didn't go on a Grail quest due to having to rule, and his son was still on his - the End times would most certainly see him leave to do it since the world might be ending.

-Brionne - Theodoric - A bipolar sort of dude. Off the battlefield he cares mostly about poetry and music (and also pimp - so probably TONS of bastards). On the battlefield he rips and tears like a goddamn Khornate.

-Carcassone - Huebald - A rare Bretonnian that intos tactics. He does great against orcs because of this and is a great strategist (orcs have no honour, so he doesn't need to use full chivalry against him). Never smiles and seems pretty grim, yet has four kids.

-Couronne - Leon was Duke of here and the only mention of family was the Bastard.

-Gisoreux - Hagen - Best friend of Leon, and SUPER CHIVALRY ALL THE TIME. So chivalrous he even criticized Leon at times for not going full chivalry. Hagen doesn't even care if chivalry leads him to do dumb stuff so he might have been in trouble - also, it's noted that he rarely left Leon's side, so it'd be interesting to see what he did when Leon got killed.

-Lyonesse - Adalhard - a simple man. Feast, gamble, fight, rinse, repeat. Many suspect he is part norscan due to the Lyonens getting viking raped more than the Irish. Lyonesse is known for cutthroat politics, but Adalhard is known to crush dissenters and take their lands, so people avoid pissing him off.

-Monfort - Folcard - Other Dukes think he's weird for preferring to fight on foot due to, GASP, living in the goddamn mountains where a horse would be useless. He responds that getting to where the orcs are to kill is more important. Is also the most Bro of the dukes - he actively tries to save his peasants from Orcs, and after saving a village offers his services as arbitrator for any village issues. He is also sexy in the tall, dark and handsome way and all the girls in Montfort are wet for him. It doesn't say what he thinks about this.

-Moussillon -Had no duke, but Mallobaude declared himself duke. And then he died.

-Parravon - Cassyon - The youngest Duke - in his early twenties, but already a Grail Knight, which should tell you something about his abilities. Unfortunately, knighting is all he's really good at, but he's so young and nice that his councillors have trouble reminding him about the other important Duke-ing things.

-Quenelles - Duke Tancred II is really old and his only living son is 10 years into a grail quest with no news of him. He was still hoping the son would come back to be successor.

Ideas for Fates of Dukes During Endtimes

-L'Anguille -Duke Taubert perishes (perhaps returning to face his mysterious fear of the sea?) and his nemesis, the merchant Godemar succeeds in gaining more power, making L'Anguille either an independent citystate like Marienberg, or giving it more power in Bretonnia. L'Anguille, which already angered knights for having cannons for defense, modernizes in ways that disturbs the rest of Bretonnia - but still, the cannons and other nonsense are only for peasants...

-Aquitaine - Armand's luck finally runs out and his recklessness leads to a glorious death - he succumbs to wounds sustained while recovering the banner of Bretonnia, his old charge.

-Artois - Duke Chilfoy sides with Mousillon and when things turn, turns to the Beastmen for cheap troops. Chilfoy is slain and replaced by Duke Larret.

-Bastonne - Bohemund gives up Dukedom on return of Gilles, wanders the world as The Jolly Knight of Bretonia, the Wandering Duke, the Hedge Lord.

-Bordeaux - As everything is going down, Alberic's son return. After a reuinion, Alberic sets off on his own Grail quest in the midst of war, urging his son to stay and protect the lands. Alberic dies shortly after witnessing the Grail.

-Brionne - Theodoric, warrior-poet, dies not long after the war ends from an infected wound. His succession is in turmoil due to many illegitimate children.

-Carcassone - Huebald is the only traitor who sided with Mousillon who lives. Gille graciously allows him to go south to fight and conquer, technically removing his Dukedom, letting his son be Duke.

-Couronne - Leon is dead, his son succeeding him (Did he have a son? His son would technically have been king for a short period before Gille came back. Maybe there was no son)

-Gisoreux - Hagen perishes, refusing to leave Leon's side, and without heirs. The closest relative that can be found, his niece, is abducted by Beastmen in the chaos and assumed dead - until she is rescued by Frederic Desfleuve, of Castle Desfleuve. The niece and Frederic marry, thus making Frederic Duke Frederic of Gisoreux. When Gilles tours his country after the war has settled, Frederic admits his dark secret - his father, upon the death of his mother, never remarried out of loyalty and love and so raised his only child as a son to be his heir - the young Frederic is a woman! However, seeing as she completed her Grail Quest and showed exemplary bravery and chivalry, Gilles allows her to become Duchess Frederique.

-Lyonesse - Adalhard sides with Mousillon, something he regrets. Never one for scheming, he chooses a death in battle against real enemies over having to own up to this later. His cunning wife takes over as Duchess of Lyonesse, convincing everyone she had nothing to do with the whole treason business.

-Monfort - Folcard is gravely wounded and crippled but is saved by a horde of loyal peasants. He settles down and marries, becoming a major stabilizing force in the aftermath and helps get his fellow knights to be more accepting of the peasant promotions.

-Paravon - Cassyon lives thanks to the sacrifice of a fellow Duke, and returns to rule, now wiser.

-Quenelles - Duke Tancred dies, but his son is still missing, leaving the Dukedom in the hands of a steward.

Current Dukes of Bretonnia

-L'Anguille- Duke Claude is the child of the late Duke Taubert, being only about twelve years of age and controlled by the wealthiest man in Bretonnia, Godemar Fitzgodric, who pressured the barely cognizant widow of Taubert into marrying Claude's older sister to him. While Fitzgodric's plans of independence for L'Anguille have been put on indefinite hiatus due to the return of Gilles and the weakness of the Empire (who could have been an ally), he still pushes forwards with his modernization of L'Anguille, accepting both Imperial and Elven refugees into the city.

-Aquitaine - Aquitaine, due to it's notorious feuding, exacerbated by war, has not been able to properly select a new Duke, as two factions have put forwards their own claimants. The Armandists suggest Duke Hugo, an infant, under the regency of Earl Desroche. The Progenists believe that King Leon was mistaken in not giving the land to the daughters of the old Duke of Aquitaine - and now that one of them has a son, Earl Fluvia backs him as Duke Pascal.

-Artois - Duke Larret is the cultured scion of a cultured dynasty - during his period of errantry he worked as a minstrel in Tilea, something that some of the more crude knights tease him for. While he is approaching his sixtieth year and is a little overweight and balding, he is an adept administrator and strategist. He had old Castle Artois burnt and abandoned after the old Duke, Chilfoy, turned traitor with Mousillon and was found to be allying with Beastmen - Chilfoy was slain in battle with Marquis Desfleuve, Reynard le Chasseur and Baron Chlodegar and a major beastman herdstone uncovered and destroyed. A new Castle Artois has gone up nearby Larret, which Larret has turned into one of the fairest cities in the land.

-Bastonne - Gilles the Unifier, on his return, is once again Duke of Bastonne - Bohemond willingly gave up his dukedom. Gilles has set down the stones for a new capital of Bretonnia near Castle Bastonne, which he has returned to.

-Bordeleaux - Duke Frermund has succeeded his father Duke Alberic as ruler of Bordeleaux.

-Cuileaux - Duke Othon rules here. The bloodlines of dead Cuileaux were kept alive in many places among peasant villages who only married others of such lineage, and among many families of Quenelles. In the chaos of the war, such a man rose up to protect the people, a petty hedge knight with a peasant mother known as Othon. Despite his upbringing he fought valiantly for the people and it was due to Othon that the bodies of Louen and Hagen were recovered. Gilles declared that as the Dukes of Mousillon had fallen since he had been gone, he would raise a new Duke. He offered Othon the arms of Moussillon, but, to honour Louen, Othon placed a golden griffin on a green field. He now rules the plains from the river Brienne up to the Barrows of Cuileaux, Quenelles being able to do little to protest due to their perished Duke.

-Gisoreaux - Duchess Frederique rules Gisoreaux, after the death of Duke Hagen and the curious events that managed to turn Marquis Frederic to Duchess Frederique. She has set up her court in Gisoreaux itself and has already endeared herself to her people through her acceptance of refugees - many Gisoreaux lords bought houses in the city but never lived in them, and Frederique has turned these into places for people to live. She is also friendly to Imperials and there is a large population of displaced Reiklanders and Marienbergers here. She has even accepted many Grey Mountain dwarves by using Reiklanders as go-betweens, and is interested in the idea of the dwarves tunneling a road to the isolated northern part of her province.

-Lyonesse - Duchess Konstanze is the widow of Duke Adalhard, who managed to keep her reputation despite the treachery of her husband, likely due to his heroic death, though many dislike her, as she originated as a minor Reikland noblewoman. The poor Duchess, having four daughters but no sons, was forced into taking control of the land until she can find a new husband. She is actually more cunning than she lets on and is already planning to increase her power - the many suitors who want to win her hand, and thus Lyonesse, have become useful tools, though at the moment she is preoccupied trying to avoid losing land to the ghouls to the south. One thing that has angered many nobles is that, due to damage to Lyonesse itself from storms and large waves (caused by the sinking of Uluthuan, the Duchess has moved her court to Sigmarsheim, claiming that when the city is properly repaired she will return - though many believe she simply wishes to surround herself with more Imperials. However, since her absence, the city and most of north-west Lyonnesse has been taken over by Norscan warbands.

-Monfort - Duke Folcard survived the wars and continues to rule, although now sporting a fetching new eyepatch. Folcard has been a stabilizing influence in Bretonnian politics and is even more beloved by the peasants - many think that Gilles will position him as an ambassador for what is left of the Empire.

-Parravon - Duke Cassyon of Parravon survived the war, now matured, and with more interest in managing his province.

Chaos

Engra Deathsword

The Butcher of Praag. Ultimate badass from the time of Magnus the Pious. Was discussed on /tg/ and given some rules. (http://boards.4chan.org/tg/thread/46631160/warhammer-fantasy-battles-general-whfb#p46660656). We should involve him, possibly as the newest Chaos big-bad.

• WIP Rules
  • M4 WS9 BS3 S5 T5 W3 I8 A5 LD9
  • troop type: infantry (special character)
  • equipment: black armour, the butcher's blades
  • special rules: hatred, immune to psychology, fear, eye of the gods, wind of destruction
  • black armour: the black armour grants a 1+ armour save
  • the butcher's blades: the butcher's blades are a pair of weapons that grant +1 in strenght and the killing blow special rule
  • wind of destruction: whenever engra has to roll on the eye of the gods table, instead roll a scatter dice (if a HIT is rolled you choose the direction), all enemy units under the line drawn between engra and the direction rolled are hit by the wind of destruction, d3 models per rank under the line must pass a toughness test or be removed as casualties, if a piece of terrain is hit by the wind all enemy models inside or in contact with the terrain must take the test instead and have to reroll succesful rolls of 1 for it; for each friendly unit hit by the wind or in contact, or inside, a terrain hit by the wind, roll a dice, on a 1 the unit suffers the effects of the wind as if being an enemy unit
• how many points should he cost? considering that a chaos lord costs 210pts, but engra's profile has more +1 in WS and I in comparison, a magic armor that confers a 2+ is on the rulebook and costs 45pts, but engra would already have his chaos armour (4+), engra has fear, hatred and immune to psychology because he was a leader of some swords of chaosbnefore , the upgrade for a chaos knight to become a sword of chaos is 5pts; ensorcelled weapons for chaos knights cost 3pts, on the other hand there're magic weapons conferring the different bonus of the butcher's blades for circa 20pts per bonus. finally there's the wind that is difficult to do an estimation for the cost, but it replaces completely the bonus from the eye of the gods and is not very reliable. How about around 450pts? above valkia and sigvald, still below stuff like kholek, galrauch and archaon--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 17:25, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Who is Agrod the Inheritor?

Saw him added under "Warriors of Chaos" but he hasn't been discussed in /tg/ or in this talk page.

Chaos Dwarfs

• (Moved to the proper section) Quick question as well, are the Chaos dwarves still a thing? Could get a big fourway going on the worlds edge mountains with chaos dwarves, dwarves, goblins, and skaven.Dragoon508 (talk) 01:33, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
• (Moved to the proper section) Chaos Dwarfs are still a thing, but they got a little rocked by Grimgor's passage east. --AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 02:19, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• I've got a question about that, the Chaos Dwarfs have arguably the best fortress the old world has ever seen, so how did Grimgor destroy it? It never made sense to me in The End Times (presumably that's why its destruction happens offscreen) and it doesn't really make sense here, so I'd propose a change. A while ago the Chaos Dwarfs pissed off the mother of all dragons, one so huge you could be forgiven for thinking she was several really large hills and managed to force her into slumber after injuring her in a fight. With the End Times waking up all the dragons, why not have her wake up, attack them, fuck up their defences, get driven off and then Grimgor shows to finish the job. Otherwise an actual fight between Grimgor's Horde and the Chaos Dwarfs would be one where Grimgor sits outside until his army starves to death/gets melted by lava magic/machinery since he has no way of breaking down the walls. -- Triacom (talk) 08:52, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

• In Endhammer fluff, the Chaos Dwarfs dedicated too many men to the Eastern and Western fronts (engineers for Archaon in the west, and then they kinda led the charge in breaking the Great Bastion of Cathay in the East). They did this because the Chaos warlords convinced them this truly was the End Time. They left so few Dwarfs in Zhar Naggrund that Grimgor was able to take advantage of a slave uprising to capture the fortress from within while his Mega-Waaagh! remained outside. The few Dwarfs that remained were probably killed and eaten by their black orc slaves. This is why the Chaos Dwarfs are so resentful after the End Times don't come about. The over-committed to the fronts.--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 23:00, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

• Sorry but that seems a little ridiculous, the Chaos Dwarfs were nearly destroyed by an uprising of Greenskins (after they created the Black Orcs) before that they take every precaution now, not to mention when they go to war they take Greenskins with them to use as meatshields so there shouldn't have been any way for the ones inside to win in a rebellion (not to mention it's just reusing an older plot point). Another thing I'd argue that could be done is the Chaos Wastes to the north are full of giants and mammoths, why not have Grimgor either make a detour to pick some up or call them to him while he's on his way over to the Chaos Dwarfs? -- Triacom (talk) 19:08, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

• I feel you. We can do the mammoths and giants idea, though you'll need to flesh it out a bit more. In addition, it's important to note that the Chaos Dorfs are completely crumped; just the big capital of Zhar Naggrund.--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 23:59, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Dwarfs

Some unresolved plot threads for dwarfs:

-The Book of Grudges and the Throne of Power are presumably still at Karaz-a-Karak, and the Dwarfs can't really begin rebuilding the Karaz Ankor without both.

-The position of High King remains vacant, and I doubt Ungrim would take the throne without retrieving the Throne of Power first.

-The Engineering Guild(s) have countless blueprints and prototypes lying around that would be invaluable to Skaven, Chaos Dwarf, and Human engineers.

-Barak Varr likely has a fleet of Ironclads still moored in the cavernous docks, waiting for someone to take them out to sea.

-The Phoenix Crown is still lying around somewhere in a Dwarf vault, and I'm sure Malekith is keen on retrieving it.

Elves

Post-Khaine Elves (AKA How Much Of Khaine Needs To Be Retconned To Make This Work)

• (Moved to the proper section) Not a fan of Malekith remaining in charge. Really not a fan. It basically assures there's only one Elf race, a really big sticking point of fans of all three groups of Elves. A proposed "fix" to GW's End Times fiasco would be a way to keep all three groups independent and existing, even if not making them in total open war anymore. Alarielle is stuck with the Wood Elves, although there was the Chekhov's Gun that didn't fire involving Eltharion passing his lewt onto his family as a force ghost. Plus Alith Anar was kind of forgotten about. Morathi could make a comeback, not like it would be an asspull considering she popped right back in AoS.

• (Moved to the proper section) Alith Anar needs a bigger part in this just because he is one of the few old high elf characters who did something then got forgotten about. Maybe he leads a rebellion against malakith to reform the high elves and is trying to raise uthaln again. Or morathi could lead the dark elves as a faction that does not want to follow Malakith.Dragoon508 (talk) 06:28, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

• (Moved to the proper section) I'll get to the elves, later, but they can have all three armies separate with Malekith still at the head. Say, Malekith appoints generals that can best command their own people, and none of them are particularly loyal or friendly to each other (allowing for combat between them), and there can still be some angry High Elves from Aestyrion left over. It also allows someone to use the Host of the Eternity King if they would really like to. Lileath is still around -- Gilles kept her secret. Alarielle and Malekith are married, and as suggested by an anon on /tg/, they birth a child for whom Teclis sticks around, trying to at least educate and guide the future Phoenix King so he doesn't end up like his fucked up father in an Arthur/Merlin story. Morathi can come back, sure.AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 15:00, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

• (Moved to the proper section) Albion I say should stay around, Since it is a nexus for the winds of magic, we could see Teclis trying to use it to make another vortex of magic, because it is sort of needed to keep daemons from manifesting throughout the world like crazy. Dragoon508 (talk) 01:33, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• (Moved to the proper section) Albion is still around as a chain of islands that represent the old cliffs/mountains/hills of the island. Teclis forming a new magical vortex there would be great, if you want to write something up about that.--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 02:19, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

• (Moved to the proper section) ::Alright I will do a quick thing about albion and teclis in a bit, one problem though I reliezed is without the incarnates, tyrion would not get revived, since it was the binding of the wind of light that let him live again. Dragoon508 (talk) 04:48, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Undo ALL the end times retcons. The Lady? A goddess of Bretonnia completely unrelated to the Elves. Malekith? Was never the Phoenix king, and the entirety of Khaine never happened. It was nothing more than an alliance of convenience that occurred between the High and Dark Elves, and now it's over. The Empire? Now ruled by the reincarnated Sigmar, who is now the eternal Emperor.108.28.77.135 00:14, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

I have to disagree with you on most of these suggestions, unfortunately. Especially the Empire/Sigmar suggestion. I think you're the anon I spoke with on /tg/, right?--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 01:18, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes I am. You had better be taking notes down on what I'm saying there, its leaps and bounds better than the current suggestions. To reiterate: The Lady stays mysterious because the ambiguity about who she is makes her good fluff and taking that away is bad for Bretonnia. HEs, DEs, and WEs only banded together because they had no choice after Chaos blew up Uluthan and Naggarond, Tyrion is the new Phoenix King and the HEs are in a state of cold war with the DEs. Morathi now leads the first force of Chaos Elves. Oh, and Harry the Hammer is the "face" of Warriors of Chaos. 108.28.77.135 01:46, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry. I really don't like any of your suggestions. If anyone, Arbaal the Undefeated would be a far better face of Chaos, given that he succeeded in his missions in Ind. As for Harry -- I originally wanted to create a new Norscan character, but others seemed in favor of making Harry relevant and unique again, along the lines of an early edition or Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay Norscan. Tyrion as Phoenix King is especially off. But luckily, this Talk page will take note of everything you say.--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 02:15, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Arball it is then, but I'm telling you you're making a big mistake with the Elves by trying to have your Matt Ward cake and eat it too. Just drop the idea and let the Elves be three unique factions again. Here's a scenario for you now- after the End Times, Malekith launches a surprise invasion that forces the weakened High Elves out of Uluthan, and declares himself Eternity King of all Elf-kimd- in practice, only the Dark Elves accept his rule since everyone else sees him as a usurper. Tyrion now has to go and reclaim Uluthan and rebuild the High Elf Empire from.scratch. Is that better? --108.28.77.135 02:46, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

This means Tyrion is no longer a tragic hero. He's just... elf-champion guy. While you may disagree, I find this rather boring. And why do we need an Eternity King? Could split off the Wood Elves, after the End Times. They never were part of the High Elf-Dark Elf dichotomy. Then have Malekith claiming the title of Phoenix King and some High Elves stubbornly refusing to acknowledge is reign and fighting against him.--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 03:07, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

From my perspective, Tyrion is a tragic hero in the same sense Achilles is. He's interesting to read about, but...he's a complete asshole who's responsible for his own fate because of a string of dick moves, and is unfit for command of anyone but himself and small groups of warriors. He's no Beowulf. I really dislike him as Phoenix King as well for that reason. Not as much as Malekith who is fucking Darth Vader and putting him in charge of the High Elves shits on ALL High Elf lore and players (and I could rant for awhile, and did during ET on /tg/), but still no love from me for Tyrion as an alternative. Honestly I'd see the Phoenix King role die, unless you bring back Asuryan too since he's the one that made the office. Without Isha, there's no Everqueen either; just a super powerful Queen (who the fuck knows what happened to all of the past Everqueens supposedly tied to Alarielle's soul, seems GW forgot they existed). Technically Elves ho no real monarchy save that which is accepted by themselves anymore. I'd honestly eliminate the idea of Elves as a united race entirely. I'd have them branch out (no pun intended) and abandon all ties barring similar goals. Wood Elves would remain with Alarielle, but they'd take on some refugees from Avelorn and Ghrond. High Elves would bring along with them the nobility of the Woodies and the residents from Clar Karond. All of the ultra-arrogant High Elves (so Caledor) and the really fucking crazy Wood Elves would stay with Malekith. Then just assorted groups following characters like Alith Anar, Eldyra (are we bringing her back from the new world?), Morathi, and so on and spread worldwide so we have more Elf cultures rather than less. I don't care about Chaos, because I don't care for Chaos lore, but there's Dechala to use for something I guess. --Thannak (talk) 03:43, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Fine, have the High Elves be dying off for real then because Uluthan was their life source or something too. Why does Tyrion even NEED to be a "tragic hero"? This is Warhammer, not fucking Hamlet. Besides, having all three Elf armies separate preserves the flavor of them all without them being watered down. Tell me- why should I play what's effectively half of an army when the only advantage I have for it is a SINGLE unique character? It makes no sense from a competitive standpoint, and it sounds like you want to keep it just to be stubborn.Did you not even read the reception of Khaine? 70.192.207.47 03:25, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Do we need Elves to be dying off anymore? Isn't that plot kind of played out and...well, just really fucking played out. Also considering the "there's as many Elves as the plot requires", there's no real risk at all. Just an artificial sense of having lost before you begin, which again is kind of a numbed storyline now. Uncertain future, fine. But this "Oh no, our last female died just exploded after a Daemonette crawled up her soul an-oh wait, there's like a whole bunch over there" shit is just old. --Thannak (talk) 03:43, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

This is why I like the Malekith Phoenix King bit. Because it allows the elves to be resurgent under two of their most capable leaders in history, the Witch King and Teclis (serving in Sultan/Vizier or King/Seneschal roles). Elves considering war on the humans of Tilea/Estalia/Araby to take back their old colonies that they've let the upjumped monkeys squat in for rather long enough. BUT keep the armies separate, both within Malekith's forces and without. High Elves are best commanded by other High Elves. Same for Dark Elves. So you'd have separate armies, but loyal to Malekith. Could even have Teclis traditionally lead the High Elven branch and Malekith the Dark Elves. But, in addition, you have a number of independent High/Dark Elves. Perhaps they even take part in the Age of Exploration colonies, some returning to Naggaroth (no where else to go) or setting up shop in Lustria. Or trying to take a Tilean city or two for themselves. Could even have these independent Dark Elves start up a slave trade with the Amazons where they ambush and Shanghai human colonists and sell them to the Amazons of Anaconda. Have some Dark Elves take over Copher in Araby, maybe? As for the Wood Elves, they would return to their isolationism and mourn Ariel, not really contributing much to Malekith, and thus remaining independent. Best of both worlds? Get the Malekith/Tyrion plot which I enjoy, but all the independent armies you could ask for, as well?--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 03:56, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

I don't think Teclis has ever actually commanded an army actually, outside of one time when he showed up in the middle of Nehekhara to help them fight off a massive Daemon invasion and go home. But arguably that could have just been him accompanying another force. Also, I'd say Caledor I was the most successful Elf leader of all time for managing to fight off a much stronger force and boot them back to their homeland then rebuild an entire civilization from the rubble up. Buuuuuuuuut...according to this new lore, he was lolcrazy and was an automatic failure because Malekith is the spiritual liege. Bleh. I just don't buy the High Elves abandoning their entire culture because their god, who died, revealed they were lied to or that all the ones who refused to follow Malekith just allowed themselves to drown out of bitterness in an actual Squatting. High Elf culture is quite defined by not being a Dark Elf, Dark Elf to them is defined as "evil assholes who follow Malekith". Old lore flat-out states that High Elves and Dark Elves would never consider working together even in the face of the alternative being mutually assured destruction, and the Khaine epilogue lore "The Dark Elves saw the High Elves as destroyed" is SUCH bullshit. (Yeah I know, I'm just bitching, but it still irks me more than anything in AoS has. HE following Sigmar makes more sense than acknowledging Malekith is anything short of a mortal Daemon). --Thannak (talk) 04:32, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Well you could do cadyreon or however you spell his name as the new incarnation of Asyrun, and he is not happy with malkith. Basically asyrun left a bit of his power in cadyreon and now it rebirths him back into the world. Would help bring a divide to those high elves who flock to this new god and those who want to stay with malkith. Instead of the chaos elf idea which is pretty stupid I have to say, you bring morathi plotting against Malkith by raising a new child she had, this male elf she is going to make into a male sorcerer as a way to kill malakith, whom is said to only be killed by a male using dark magic. With that you got high elves going their own way and dark elves going theirs while still letting those who want to have a combined elf army following malakith as the eternity king.Dragoon508 (talk) 04:48, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Chaos Elves is only bad if viewed through the lense of 40k, which Fantasy should have less influence from anyway. Caradryan is odd, since without Asuryan he has literally no plot whatsoever. Plus a mute king is just discount Keeb Blackbolt. I'd still eliminate the Phoenix King role, without Asuryan it has no actual context anymore. Honestly, retconning all of ET: Khaine would be a good direction, it was the first ET book that most people were pissed off by (not just because of the magic thing). I can see keeping it in theory, as a mass exodus from Naggaroth and Ulthuan to the Old World under a loose confederation of some kind, but as a whole that mess isn't worth saving. The elimination of all the flavors of Elves into just angry refugees under king Anakin is just awful. --Thannak (talk) 15:50, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Hmmm. Alright. Let's try coming up with a retconning of Khaine, because I dislike most of it. The problem is I quite like the central bits (like Malekith becoming the leader of a confederation of elves -- even if he's King Anakin, I like the irony). In thinking of the title of Phoenix King... maybe leave it all ambiguous? Cut out all of the "he just had to stay in the fire longer and be confident." We don't know what happened. All we know is that Teclis felt that Malekith was the kind of King the elves needed for the end of the world (ruthless and military-minded) and so he manipulated and schemed. He and Malekith both SAY he is the Phoenix King. Hell, maybe Malekith even thinks he is, and Teclis just pulled off the whole 'protect the King from the fire' deal without telling him. The idea would be that everyone is arguing and no one is a reliable narrator. The only one who would know, Teclis, is a known liar. Tyrion feels betrayed and turns on Teclis/Malekith. Same whole schpiel. Alarielle sticks with Malekith and she trusts Teclis' guidance and just wants to keep the Elven race without it falling into civil war. Tyrion and his boys say "fuck it" and go the civil war route anyway. Draw the Widowmaker. Keep the major elements of Khaine, but change around the motivations, you know? Then, in the aftermath, Tyrion remains rebellious and angry, taking the 'true' High Elves with him. Dark Elves and politically inclined High Elves remain with Malekith/Teclis/Alarielle. Wood Elves go back to doing whatever shit it is they do. Bam. Three armies.--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 18:06, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

That works, although maybe keep some remnants of Naggaroth and Ulthuan around. No need to have the bridges entirely burned, say most of Ulthuan sank but not all, say that Chaos took most of Naggaroth but not all. HE holdouts remain in Ulthuan, DE holdouts remain in Naggaroth, those loyal to Mal and Alarielle went to the Old World. But there's still the question of how Tyrion survives without Incarnates unless the whole thing changes and why Teclis saves him if he does at all. Maybe an idea is instead of sinking, the floating island of Ulthuan drift apart and become randomly roaming landmasses on the seas? --Thannak (talk) 19:06, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Teclis could heal/revive his brother only because he is his brother and he loves him? Teclis could feel extremely guilty that he had to betray his brother and knows that Tyrion won't listen to his explanations, but he cannot bring himself to let him die, anyway. As to Naggaroth -- I would prefer to keep it in the hands of roving Chaos hordes and serving as the basis for a new period of elven colonization. The surviving Dark Elves, realizing they don't want to just bum around Athel Loren are divided. As in the main page, some consider returning to Naggaroth and picking up where they left off (as much as they can) while some want to take their old colonies from the humans. With Ulthuan... I would still prefer to sink the continent as a sort of Atlantis, but you could give it the Albion treatment so that some of the mountain tops remain as islands above sea-level.--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 19:14, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Well, they do have a telepathic connection somewhat in the novels. Maybe Teclis uses part of his own soul to rez Tyrion using and severing that connection to do so, making Teclis from that point on evil enough to shrug off Malekith's evil. Can keep Alarielle's new crazy primal nature vibe from AoS to explain her massive change in character too. The Anulli mountains being colonized by HE doesn't work, they're mostly just fucked up portals to Chaos that Daemons come from and not much else at the peaks. Maybe Grom still wandering around, but that's it. Seems kinda like you just want to wipe away old High Elves and keep Tyrion's Dark Elf/insane High Elf army against Malekith's forces and some hiding Woodies, so whatever. I guess keep Ulthuan sunk and use the Aestyrion as the new conflict instead. Not sure what to do with Morathi if she isn't Chaos though. She just ends up a much less competent Neferata. --Thannak (talk) 20:22, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, I wasn't clear. Scrap Aestyrion. Tyrion only takes High Elves with him. So the "High Elf" Army is represented by Tyrion and his bros. And the "Dark Elf Army" is represented by the Dark Elves and High Elves serving Malekith in fluff. The Wood Elves under Orion and Ariel do not remain under Malekith. The Wood Elves remain in Athel Loren and want their elven refugee kinsmen to leave. So, Malekith needs to find a home for his people. Tyrion does, as well. And we can talk about where we'd like them to go. I'd prefer not to return to Ulthuan.

Well, there's the High Elf naval bases at the Madagascar and Thailand equivalents of the Warhammer World to retreat to, the Fortress of Dawn and Tower of the Sun respectively. Not sure what friends Tyrion has, he teamkilled Korhil, Teclis and Alarielle are apparently with Malekith, Eldyra is waiting for Araloth to appear so they can act out Lolita in the new Elf-only world, Caradryan has no plotline except following the now nonexistent Phoenix King position meaning he probably defaults to Malekith. Aislinn, Eltharion, and Finubar are all dead, Imrik is a race traitor Dark Elf now and Malekith's Mortarch equivalent, and Alith Anar was sworn to Malekith via his patron Lileath who is the one who has been keeping him alive all these years. So High Elves literally ONLY have Tyrion as a preexisting named character now unless you want to just start chopping up ET:K and ET:N into "happened" and "didn't happen". Not to mention they lose the Phoenix Guard, and all of the Lothern Seaguard, Lothern Seahelms, and Lothern Skycutters since the High Elves lost their entire navy in one battle. Plus the Gryphons and White Lions were indigenous only to Ulthuan, Bolt Throwers were only made in Lothern and most probably went down with the fleet, Shadow Warriors and Sisters of Avelorn both go with Alith and Alarielle respectivaly, Flamespyre Phoenixes have to roost in the area around Asuryan's shrine to maintain their heat, the horses of Ellyrion were allowed to roam free through the plains and thus all probably went down with the continent, and the Dragons have to sleep in volcanoes and can only be awakened with the songs of a Caledorian...so yeah. Spearmen, Archers, Mages/Archmages, Nobles/Princes, Silver Helms, Frostheart Phoenixes, Tiranoc Chariots, and Swordmasters. Those are the only things that High Elves have left. Almost 3/4 their army options and all their named characters other than Big T now belong to Malekith or are at the bottom of the ocean...fuck it, Age of Sigmar is better from a High Elf perspective. Plus Woodie lore is pretty fucked too, losing their two racial leaders, all of their gods, and being forced into serving a foreign queen by obligation with the only other option being fading into the deep woods of the world in the Tolkien Curse style. So there's a vibe that everything involving your lore was resolved by other factions and you were informed how it went afterwards. Gotta say, only Dark Elf fans get anything nice in this scenario by getting...well, literally everything except Morathi and Tyrion. --Thannak (talk) 06:21, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Well hang on, that is just the characters with models, since their are other factions with dead characters with models we can bring in some new ones as well and if you fight with the model it is just a counts as. For instance we got Princess Eldyra, who I think is still alive, whom was the squire of Tyrion. Could easily do a count's as for eltherian or something. Calador dragontamer could not have gotten kidnapped so there is another good high elf who could be a counts as imrik in a high elf army. You got the blind eltherian swordsmaster if you want to bring him back into the lore. Belanare can be a counts as teclis, he was one of the top archmages of the high elves. Imralion could also be used as a bad ass prince character. Point is I can list a ton of high elf characters from the fluff who could be used as the true high elves under tyrion or even as characters under malakith. Just as the empire lost some of their important characters so do the high elves, I mean we got karl franz dead now along with a bunch of their special characters.Dragoon508 (talk) 07:49, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Eldyra became the new Ereth Khial (Elf death god) and went to the new world to await Araloth as his much younger wife. Caledor the Dragontamer is so fucking powerful he'd be Elf Nagash (he already is an emaciated skeleton when he's not pissed off and using Slann-tier magic), he ain't no Archmage. Also he was pulled into the Warp with Morathi, so he'd have to survived too somehow. Eltharion died in End Times: Nagash. Belanaar is a Phoenix King who died of old age three generations ago. Not sure who "Imralion" is. Fact is though the Dark are making off with everyone's shit in that. --Thannak (talk) 08:00, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Different Balanaar, this one was one of the archmages who was the teacher of Teclis. So same name but different person. The Eltharion I am talking about is the one before they retconned him out of existance. He was one of the swrordmasters of Hoeth, set up to be a counterpart to Cadryeon and Korthil so they would have a hero character for all three of the major special infantry of the high elves. Imralion is/was the general in charge of Eagle pass. Caledor was a suggestion to use if morathi came back you could bring him back as well for the high elves. Another unit you could pull out is Gilead, apparently he was an old dogs of war unit. Anyways there are others and I could spend awhile listing them all, the point being that even if you say that the dark elves got all the characters and leave a true high elf faction with just tyrion, we could just pull out new characters or older ones who never got a model/rules. For instance I think his name is prince arolan from the blood island starter set. He could become a special character and have a bigger role now.Dragoon508 (talk) 08:23, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Looks like I missed something! Okay, Thannak, I have said from the beginning that I only wrote extensively for the factions that I knew well, so you are totally correct in saying that it doesn't seem like I wrote much for factions I didn't know. Hence why I'm relying on people like you to help! You mentioned dividing Khaine into "did" or "didn't" happen. Let's do that. Let's save some characters (the kill-count was stupid as hell in End Times) and change some stuff around, and make sure that High Elf players can still play High Elves like... High Elves. Reverse some of the God stuff (like sending elves into the next elf-world, as that's not necessary given that the world didn't actually end). Save Orion/Ariel. Don't turn Alarielle into a nature deity -- keep her as Everqueen. Any other suggestions?--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 15:35, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

I think the Belanaar you're thinking of was killed in Sons of Ellyrion, skinned alive partially and impaled on a Slaaneshi pole to be used as a still-living banner. After Morathi turned his daughter to ash to use her soul as a spell component in summoning Chaos Spawn into Saphery to weaken the Swordmasters. Eltharion the Blind is the exact same character as Eltharion the Grim, Blind was retconned to Grim in 6e I believe (whenever he got the Stormwing model).The Dogs of War one is Asarnil the Dragonlord, who was banished for an unspeakable crime (implied Chaos worship in the Cult of Pleasure). Althran is the only viable one, but he's totally devoid of any character. Same with the IoB Mage, Caladris. Their only personality or backstory is being friends. Caledor would have to have INSANE stats to reflect his lore. Most other HE are dead. The faction really doesn't work with Khaine, or a complete replacement of most of the army book options. --Thannak (talk) 15:35, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Right, so how would you rewrite Khaine and save some folks/units?--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 18:35, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

How about this; the Gods sent their powers into mortals, but didn't merge with them. Thus they survived, if greatly diminished. The Vortex unbinding didn't work right, Ulthuan is slowly sinking which allows for time to fully evacuate as well as explaining why there's no Incarnates. Not all Elves participated in the war, many outraged Elves told their only options were to join Judas or Lucifer took option 3; leave. This includes HE from every kingdom, meaning every option still exists. For Phoenix Guard, Asuryan's plan hinged on ET unfolding as it did, and thus when it didn't they realized destiny is a lie and many left as well. The magic of Ulthuan spread through the world, Phoenixes roosted in new lands as they followed the feel of home, the unbound Wind of Fire caused new volcanoes to form as High Elvessearched for new homelands far from the sinking island. Fragments of Cothique broke off, becoming wandering islands full of Elf cities and ghosts in the seas. When the Vortex unbinding failed, the pressure of it reversed and leeched magic back into the world for a short time, draining Chaos and empowering mortals (causing Archaon to lose to Valten). Morathi and Caledor were flung out into the world. Meanwhile, Orion andAriel live on as spirits unknowable even to the Wood Elves, stranger now than any force in creation and leading those of their race willing to follow down an unknown path. --Thannak (talk) 23:08, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

That basically just makes it AoS in the old world. I would go with no on that as well.Dragoon508 (talk) 01:33, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Well we honestly should keep an option for people who want to run an army of the eternity king list as in all three factions together, but you can save a lot of people if a lot of the elven gods survived, such as vaul for instance. The warhammer armies project has a good book about special characters which I looked through for some of the ideas of other characters. This is the same guy who did the norsca and kislev books so they are decent, but point I was making is we can use this to bring in new characters or older ones that never really got screen time. The empire is a faction I can point at that got a majority of their special characters killed off but in this setting they have done new stuff.Dragoon508 (talk) 22:01, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Though I doubt it'l be received well and I'm somewhat an outsider to this affair I feel relatively compelled to comment on these changes to the Elves, particularly since I assume everyone's voice here is equal (if not just inform me thereof). On a very technical aspect I think it's important to accept that the suggested changes, heavily maintaining End Times Khaine's controversial moments, is inevitably going to anger and alienate a large portion of the Elf fan base since to many it attacked or undermined key characteristics of their favored setting and army (there is a reason Khaine is when many decided End Times was no good). So that inevitability aside it's important to keep in mind the purpose of this fan project; is it to present as broad a spectrum of the fan base with something they would enjoy? Or is it the personal project of a clique on the net of their personal favored vision? To note neither options are wrong or better than the other, just something to have clarity on when doing this. For example even as a casual reader with nowhere near the same history as others on here, no doubt, this setting seems to heavily favour Malekith and Teclis (based on their End Times states) over characters like Tyrion, Finubar or Eltharion and seems to clearly side with the former party's cause. I can admit that, for example, myself and many High and Dark Elf players I know would be unsatisfied with this state of affairs. So that's the heavy technical stuff out of the way. Then, on a minor note, Alarielle and Malekith having a kid seems very implausible (can Malekith still have kids?) when one considers both hate each other explicitly in the lore and that in End Times 5 we are told the two have 'no intimacy whatsoever' and do not stay together or even touch each other. Not to mention in this setting, I presume, Alarielle then knows Teclis organized Aliathra's death and Tyrion's fall? That'll change her calculus in the matters too, in End Times 5 we are told she is horrified and disgusted when she finds this out. Add onto this the fact that Tyrion is alive her and matters are even more complicated; End Times 5, core and novelization, inform us that Alarielle still loves only Tyrion and that Tyrion has great sway and influence over her. In the core End Times 5 book Sigmar wants Tyrion's support for his plan because he believes that'll be key to winning over Alarille and, unsurprisingly, he is correct. We are told twice in End Times 5 that once Tyrion agrees to a point or is won over by an idea that, as a consequence, Alarielle also agrees and supports it. A world after the threat has passed where Alarielle knows about Teclis's actions even somewhat or, more importantly, where a non-corrupted Tyrion exists will be a very, very complicating for any 'united' elf regime. Which, it seems, there isn't in this setting anyway which removes Alarielle's only motivation for the alliance in the wake of there no longer being a Khainite threat. So, I'm sorry, but a child seems to be absolutely impossible to imagine between the two.HiddenAway (talk) 10:10, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

You're rigbht. You're absolutely right regarding the child and Alarielle. What would you like to see changed? Have alarielle go off with Tyrion and the rest of the High Elves?--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 19:25, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

UTC)

Since Ariel isn't dead and Dark Elves still have Morathi there's no reason not to keep her a High Elf. --Thannak (talk) 20:02, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Morathi's dead in this setting, no?--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 21:24, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

But offering creative input is so much harder than armchair criticisms. But in all seriousness if I were to make suggestions, and I'd like to preface that with the fact that I'm not 100% on the fan project's timeline so any mistakes I might make please excuse, I'd say that a general piece of advice which might help with the elves is comprised of 3 general tips. As a forewarning this advice deals with giving a wide spectrum of fans something they enjoy, its not a result as bold or big a departure from the status quo as others might want, I'm not going to weigh in and argue for either side being more right or wrong just making the context clear (personally I think it just comes down to personal taste in most cases). So the 3 general pieces of input I'd give are; 1) Many people want the three armies to remain distinct from each other, although as far as I can tell that's already the thrust of this project, so that they can play their 'Dark', 'High' and 'Wood' Elves without thinking of them as a united polity. 2) No one of the three actions should be disproportionately stronger, militarily or politically, than the other two in the lore. 3) Rank the characters on a hierarchy of power, taking into account magic and ability to rally and lead masses of people, and then make sure the division of characters between the three factions are relatively comparable. So for example Malekith, Orion, Ariel, Alarielle, Morathi and Teclis are all probably your top belt (note the point of this is not who's strongest in minute detail so, for example, the previously mentioned group could all be put in a single 'power group' and then we could see that there are six which, luckily, divide neatly between three factions for equal spread). This will allow balance between the factions as. I think, as a High Elf player, that's probably my biggest gripe with the current setup. The 'High' Elves just look like Tyrion and a few warriors who have little to no support from any powerful or wise individuals or any large population to even lead, they come across like just some roving warriors who'll die out since they little to no political or people support. How that hierarchy breaks down, well, that'll probably be a little contentious. I'll give my example now, so long, but by no measure is this list infallible or anything, just an example to help demonstrate my idea (note I'm only using Characters with Miniatures here, barring Ariel, that's also open to change if people want);

• A Group: Alarielle, Ariel, Malekith, Morathi, Orion, Teclis

• B Group: Alith Anar, Durthu, Hellebron, Imrik, Malus, Tyrion

• C Group: Caradryn, Eltharion, Shadowblade, Twilight Sisters

• D Group: Korhil, Kouran, Lokhir, Tullaris

Beyond those three general pieces of advice, answering your specific question about Alarielle and the child, well...I'm far from certain what I'd suggest. That there is no child makes sense to me. What Alarielle should do? Well partly it'd depend on the aforementioned power system, putting her somewhere which needs someone of her level but has no one, or moving her out of a faction already to full of very powerful people. I'd personally, just narratively, see 3 potential alternatives for her in a post-End Times AU and all of them depend on the context. If Ariel dies ad fuses with Alarielle you can easily put her alongside Orion as the new heavy and political leader of Wood Elves. She can easily also still continue to co-rule alongside Malekith, if so its just important to play up how the division of the regime at the highest level of power does lead to a very fractious and strife-ridden political system (not a bad thing necessarily since it can add intrigue) with Alarielle despeising her co-ruler and Malekith paranoid that Alarielle will betray him or try to install Tyrion over him. This second option only has one tiny flaw, which can be ignored, which is namely that Alarielle's actions in End Times are motivated by the need to unite in the face of the Aestyrion and then, later, certain death. If there is no certain death impeding, no Aestyrion and no union of all Elves, her motivation for continuing to work with Malekith seriously loses its justifications. Thus in this second alternative an analysis of her motivation is perhaps necessary to create her reasons in the new setting for continuing to tolerate Malekith. Thirdly, as you pointed out, one can have her go and be with Tyrion and the 'High' Elves. In this third alternative one most likely has it that, having discovered now that her daughter was allowed to die on ppurpose and that her lover was corrupted on purpose as well, that she decides to abandon Malekith and Teclis as her aforementioned primary reasons for helping them (union of all Elves and imminent apocalypse) are gone and she instead joins with Tyrion. In this third alternative she most likely takes the role of political leader of the 'High' Elves (which is good cause any faction with Tyrion as a political leader is in serious trouble since he sucks at anything beyond fighting in melee and sacrificing himself for others). However all three are doable, I have my preferred option, but all three are doable. My preferred option would be, yes, have Alarielle join with the 'High' Elves but, to me, a large part of that is about pragmatics. As can be seen in the A Belt Alarielle is the only of the very powerful Elves who has a believable motivation to be part of the 'High' Elf faction since Morathi is dead, Malekith and Teclis are who they oppose and Ariel and Orion are obviously sticking with the Wood Elves. As a result just to give the 'High' Elves some parity to the other two factions, not just in individual power but also in people power since Malekith gets most Dark Elves, Ariel and Orion get all Wood Elves, but if you had to divide High Elves between Tyrion and Alarielle she'd probably get more of them. Having Alarielle on Tyrion's side thus makes sense from a narrative point of view and also gives the 'High' Elves a believable number of supporters which allow it to be more than a group of embittered raiders with no true chance at hurting the domain of the other two Elven polities.

Aside from that thanks for the invitation to speak, I appreciate it, and as said before none of this is absolute and I'm open to discussion on any points. Also Morathi being dead might complicate the power dispersal, with only 5 A's, but as long as no 1 faction has 3 and the others both only have 1 it should be fine. HiddenAway (talk) 12:14, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

• There's also Eldyra. Assuming the new world plot is dropped, she remains. Hooking her up with Tyrion would be mighty creepy, but she presents a blank slate otherwise as needed. She's a tactician warrior, high nobility from Tiranoc (who would hate Dark Elves more than anyone now), and Tyrion's apprentice. She can be fluffed up from grade E character to grade A if needed. Could start a new royal line using her as "High Queen" (or whatever), could use her as the balance to Tyrion having no idea how to do anything but wage war, and so on.
• Looking at it from the old lore perspective, we have to first establish if the High Elf gods are 100% gone, then the status of the royal line (because by nature any non-Aesteryion High Elves will reject Malekith and any Dark Elves, possibly barring Morathi if Tyrion puts his foot down on the matter, as anything but an eternal enemy), then finally if the Princes and Princesses and the old kingdom heritage can maintain unity. Those three things have always dictated the HE direction, so going forward it needs to be decided which still apply.
• Retconning "all opposed to Malekith willingly drowned on Ulthuan" needs to be retconned entirely, since it was both fucking stupid and an excuse for the inter-Elf conflicts to be dropped for Archaon.
• The first thing independent High Elves need is a homeland. I know there is a bent towards Old World being the location of everything important, so the fortresses are out. I suggested chunks of Ulthuan remain floating and drift towards the Old World, but that idea was not popular. So what remains is High Elves move in with the Brets, move in to Albion, take some of the Badlands, or take over part of the Chaos Wastes. None are great options, but I'd suggest Malekith's group hunkering down in Bret ruins, possibly Parravon, rebuilt to Elf aesthetics on the edge of Athel Loren, and the independent High Elves and Dark Elves being nearby. I'd suggest keeping the High on the coast of Bretonnia around where Marienburg was or further north of it, and the Dark in the Gray Mountains east of Athel Loren. --Thannak (talk) 17:18, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Well the idea of Eldyra hooking up with Tyrion isn't objectionable or strange, he's her only interaction of any importance whatsoever and clearly they have developed a close familial bond which can easily be seen as developing into a romantic one if Alarielle is removed from the picture, I must admit that taking this measure, to me, fails to address several key practical issues which make Alarielle still a more attractive alternative for the sake of narrative and balance. What is certain is that if Eldyra survived in this, I am not certain if she did, she is one of those few High Elves who would choose Tyrion over anyone, including Teclis or the Everqueen, so she would definitely be amongst the 'High' Elves. Unfortunately her presence just wouldn't change much; she's definitively beneath Eltharion and Tyrion as commanders and warriors, has no magic and is never referred to as being charismatic or possessing the loyalty of great forces. Having her with the 'High' Elves continues the problem that their faction is just a group of dispossessed warriors compared to the thriving populations of the other two Elven factions. I will admit I don't quite see how she could be an A character at all but would be interested to hear the idea behind your suggestion. As for the comment about her complementing Tyrion's insufficiencies, well, problem is that Eldyra is never said to be any good at anything but war either (and she's worse than Tyrion at that). Although I don't mind adding detail to her character if she was some very charismatic or phenomenal competent leader it would probably have been mentioned in the fluff. As it stands in fluff she is largely treated as a female Tyrion Jr. with Finubar coming to rely on her, we are told, when Tyrion is not available. But, on the other hand, there's no reason to think of this as two mutually exclusive options. Like I said Eldyra will be a definite member of the 'High' Elves but you still need to give reasons why they have numbers on par with Malekith and Orion and also power. Alarielle is still the best answer to this problem.

Of course, to add to the above, we have to sort of begin dividing discussions between their 'fluff' circumstances and their more practical requirements. For example due to practical requirements Eldyra being added, a D character at most, is fine and fun but doesn't change the problem that the 'High' Elves need stronger characters in their faction and also a reason why their numbers are comparable to the other two Elven factions. If we are having a 'fluff' discussion then we can discuss, less importantly but more fun, things about character dynamics and interaction. For example if people don't want a return to Alarielle and Tyrion being in love with each other one can, as you suggest, Have Eldyra and Tyrion start a relationship. However since practical requirements would dictate that Alarielle be part of the 'High' Elf faction we can both add her and have Eldyra and Tyrion be in a relationship, then we can invent a fluffy reason (Alarielle is still incensed after having learnt the truth of Malekith and Teclis and thus refuses to cooperate them and leads what she sees as 'her' people away from them but Tyrion still feels betrayed by her and thus refuses to return to a relationship with her but instead pursues one with Eldyra. Then you can have a kingdom where there is one Queen and her top commander gets along poorly with her, adding political intrigue). All this is doable. Personally I prefer the simplicity of Alarielle and Tyrion simply hooking up again but mostly that's because that is what canonically happened in End Times 5 so I see no reason to deviate from canon on this matter. However I'll freely admit my personal taste shouldn't be the deciding factor her.

The status of the Gods, of all races, I agree is a paramount thing that must be decided. As I said I'm far from fully read on this, has their status in anyway been determined or has the discussion not yet been had at all?

As for the homeland question, yes, vitally important. The Wood Elves have this matter luckily already solved, have the Dark Elves, or the former-Dark Elves (I am not certain how to address them now, do they simply call themselves Elves now?) already been situated?

Regardless I'm happy to help in what ways I can and find this sort of discussion interesting.HiddenAway (talk) 18:23, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

You would have to build up Eldyra more as a character, taking the reigns of leadership. As it is she's more Eltharion than Tyrion, since she uses the same tactics that he used. I'd argue strongly against her starting a relationship with Tyrion as he's her father's age, and it continues a very creepy theme of Elf maidens in Warhammer invariably ending up with much older men. Even Morathi herself was Aenarion's junior. --Thannak (talk) 19:43, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Though I think building her up as a character is fun, certainly something I would love to do if allowed some degree of creative decision making related to the 'High' Elves, it doesn't change the fact that a young character 'becoming' a better leader or such can't be compared in influence and power terms to the established heavies and thus the 'High' Elves still need an equalizing factor for their numbers and powers. I agree with your point about avoiding the inevitable trap of pairing her off romantically with Tyrion, as I noted above since canonically Alarielle and Tyrion get together again in End Times 5 I'm more in favour of going through with the simple and canon approach. I think one thing this entire fan project should avoid (but which is easy to fall into) is needlessly diverging from canon when it would make things more 'controversial'. If I were to sketch a rudimentary view of the 'High' Elves it would probably consist of Tyrion, Eltharion and Eldyra as your primary leaders beneath a High Queen; Alarielle, and then Korhil and other minor characters remaining as well if they are still alive (Like Aislin). Not sure where one would geographically settle them, perhaps an Araby, Cathay or Ind Colony, but the core idea would probably be a large population of Elves from the homelands of Eltharion and Eldyra, some personal supporters of Tyrion (the smallest group most likely) and then a large deal of the survivors of Averlorn accompanying Alarielle. I don't want to overstep any boundaries here so I think I'll stop here and open that any other players interested in the Elves (All three factions) discuss anything they'd like to see (or not see) so we can try to come to a conclusion which suits as many (hopefully all) of us as possible. HiddenAway (talk) 16:37, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

I still suggest entirely undoing Khaine. The only point of it was to eliminate the Elves as separate factions and to bring them all to the Old World. If the Elves are remaining different factions and are not existing in the Old World, there is no point. Almost all of the named characters were killed off anyway so it really gimps them going forward unless Endhammer introduces a huge batch of OCDonuts. The Aesteryion should still exist as a force united under Malekith for people who want to use it, making me think that a small number of Elves moving to the Old World in part of Athel Loren as a united group looking to save their races is the best way to move forward. If for example Korhil and Malus both took groups of soldiers to join that group, they still exist in the High and Dark Elf armies and can rejoin their kin if need be, but also exist as options for that faction as well. Like all factions in the game it should have a legitimate reason to fight itself, and being constantly hindered by backstabbing and politics like the Empire in an eternal election year would be perfect. Leave Naggaroth under constant, 24/7 war against the invading Daemons while Ulthuan Kingdoms divide themselves due to lack of a Phoenix King and start waging war on each other for territory. More blank check options for people to have believable narrative for their own battles if High Elves end up fighting High Elves or Aesteryion VS Dark Elves. Attempting to unite an entire group as one single entity that can't fight itself unless "LOLCHAOSCORRUPTION" or "LOLMISCOMMUNICATION" has been a sticking point in GW lore for a long time anyway. There's no built-in reason for Lizardmen to fight Lizardmen, or Ultramarines to fight Ultramarines for example. So taking this as a chance to undo their idiocy and give even more logic to matchups is a good way to progress. --Thannak (talk) 20:42, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Though I understand your desires it is also true that there is definitely people who wish to maintain some aspects of the changes which End Times Khaine created. But, to be fair, before I continue I'd like to know from AU 9th Edition Dude if he has any thoughts on how to proceed from here. Or if he has a way he'd prefer to continue or discuss changes or potential additions. Like I said before, without going to much into the fluff, personally all I'd want in something like this is three distinct Elven factions which comparable power and importance in terms of manpower and special characters. That being said I understand some of what you are saying, above, but personally am not quite as opposed to End Times Khaine as you perhaps are (but that's just my tastes, I think it has nothing to do with the quality of the work, simply how I feel). Perhaps we could begin actually discussing what the shape of the Elves in the fan project could be, I don't what to overstep boundaries, so I'd rather defer to AU 9th Edition Dude if he has a format or methodology he'd prefer we use when it comes to constructive discussion. Although fun, this discussion I mean, it does feel as if nothing is really having an impact (as if we are just talking around points without making final decisions) so perhaps sketching out things we'd 'want' to have and then seeing if we can compromise to include as many people's 'wants' as possible is a potential method? I don't know, like I said I'd prefer to defer to the creator's judgment on this, but am open to partaking in anything decided.HiddenAway (talk) 21:06, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Hey folks! I've been focusing too much on /tg/ thread, itself. So, here's where I'm leaning for the Elf Discussion: (1) Malekith remains "Phoenix King," but more High Elves go off with Tyrion, including Alarielle. Imrik and the Dragon Princes of Caledor remain with Malekith. (2) Teclis is a sometimes-advisor to Malekith, trying to maintain the feeble peace between Dark and High Elves, but eventually realizes it's largely futile and begins travelling the world, trying to fix all of the trouble of the End Times. (3) The leaders of the High Elf faction are far more militaristic (being Tyrion, Alith Anar, and Eltharion). They're nominally matriarchal, with Alarielle, but the reigns of power are ever more in the hands of warriors. (4) Morathi's dead. Lokhir's alive. Hellebron... maybe? I'd like to keep the "Tyrion drew the sword and became Khaine before being brought down." So, we'd need to figure the faith of the Dark Elves. Could just have them keep worshiping Khaine and to an extent Malekith (what with being able to throw away Widowmaker. (5) Wood Elves keep Orion and Ariel and remain in the woods. I kinda like keeping these guys how they were, especially given their isolationist nature. (6) With the world -not- over, Lileath realizes she's still got time to collect for her New World Pantheon and sticks around. Gilles keeps the secret so that no one else in Bretonnia realizes whats going on and he can still rely on their religious fervor, while they keep being noble and good and becoming Space Marines-- I mean Grail Knights.--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 02:29, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

I personally agree with your points above, I think they largely help to balance the factions as well, Malekith and Teclis for the 'Dark' Elves, Alarielle for the 'High' Elves and Orion and Ariel for the 'Wood' Elves. It is true the 'High' Elves still have a disadvantage but, with only 5 comparably powerful characters, this was inevitable and so I think the current setup is as balanced as can be. Alarielle, at the very least, means that the 'High' Elves will have a large population now because she commands respect from a very large portion of the Elf population. Only thing I did not know was that Alith Anar was with the 'High' Elves. I thought he was an enemy of Tyrion who stuck with the Malekith (as per Khaine's canon). I don't mind putting him on the 'High' Elves side, just didn't realize that he was. So I agree with your primary points, and would love to help flesh out the fluff of the 'High' Elves if I may (I think I'll be useless at the actual rules so I'll limit myself to fluff). That then brings us to the importance of determining the extent of Khaine's canon and its impact on the story. Also determining who lived and who died and the nature of faith in the aftermath, as you said, is also pertinent. HiddenAway (talk) 03:44, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

I would keep Morathi alive, since infighting should still be a Dark Elf thing and otherwise we'd have them wholly united. There's still the question of where everyone is going to settle though. If Ulthuan and Naggaroth remain gone while the Empire and Brets are in reclaim mode, we have two massive chunks of Elves in varying degrees of amicability who need a homeland in a place where there's no room. That's a good plot point, but you still need to put a dot on the map and say "They start here, this is the capital". Teclis wandering is fantastic, gives a good secondary theme for anyone wanting to mix armies in Aestyrion and meddle in other plots. I think the problem with Lileath/Lady is the three major groups all had a different version of her. High Elf gods are more like ancient heroes who shaped fate. Wood Elf gods are very Fey, very alien, very hostile. To the Brets, the Lady is some mysterious otherworldly unknowable thing of good which walks the earth as a mortal woman waiting for her champions. These are all very irreconcilable ideas, and the presentation of Lileath fit none of them in End Times. --Thannak (talk) 03:55, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Lileath is easy. Everyone is wrong. They all see phenomena and apply it to their own idea of the god, but no one is truly correct, and Lileath is different even than what the Wood Elves (the closest to 'correct') believe. As for Morathi -- it's not something I'm a fan of keeping around. I think her time is past. Malekith's quality as an interesting character was always undermined by the implied incest subplot which just seemed to be there for edgy quality (as I never really bought the Greek myth angle -- but I could be wrong). I actually liked the idea of Malekith embracing his future and taking control of his own destiny as a real leader, even if he was still a tyrant. If you -really- need conflict within the Dark Elves, you could base it around the injection of new High Elves (led by the ever-ambitious Imrik), and possibly joined by Lokhir Felheart or some other Dark Elf power, as a "Privy Council" for Malekith who are sometimes antagonistic. Or Hellebron could still be around and leading a group of hyper-violent Khainanites who hate Malekith for sinking to allow High Elves to join him and taking the title of Phoenix King. As for where they are going -- I was thinking the Dark Elves and Malekith are divided. Some want to return to Naggaroth (what with Ulthuan gone) and reclaim it. Others want to take back the colonies of Tilea, and maybe take Tobaro as part of Malekith's nascent empire. The High Elves, meanwhile, have the Dragon Isles (far away), the mountains of Ulthuan (which are now islands), and I was thinking southern Naggaroth/Central America. To HiddenAway, regarding Alith Anar, Alith Anar never hated Tyrion, as I understand. He wanted to stop him, as he'd gone off the deep-end to become Khaine. In this timeline, Teclis saves Tyrion before he can be killed, but Alith Anar contributed to subduing him. Later, Alith Anar and Tyrion reconcile. In addition, Tyrion doesn't kill Korhil.--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 04:04, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Ah! Tyrion doesn't kill Korhil? I'm glad to hear that. When reading End Times Khaine I remember my biggest irritation, not the biggest criticism just the thing that bugged me most, was the way Tyrion and Korhil just wallowed in endless misery incapable of achieving anything other than ruining themselves more. The two just seemed like enormous punching bags for the nominally 'good' cast. Anyway on the issue of 'Dark' Elf infighting I think the best option is too look at someone like Teclis. Hellebron is an option, as she was in End Times canon for infighting, so you can still have Imrik petition Malekith for her exile but, without Alarielle to also pitch in, Malekith equivocates in the matter leading to souring relations between Hellebron and Imrik. Teclis and Malekith in the other hand might politick against each other near constantly, Malekith wary (as he was in End Times canon) of Teclis's penchant for using anyone and anything as a tool to achieve a 'greater' objective and Teclis wary of Malekith not necessarily fulfilling the objectives he wants him too. Personally I'm not more or less of a fan of Morathi than, say, Malekith, but honestly I don't mind if she's dead or not, from a pragmatic point of view it simply alters the number of Elves with world-shaking power levels. Similarly I'll admit I'm not as big a fan of Malekith as I've noticed MANY people are but, to be fair, that's just a matter of taste, and I can respect that other people have different likes to me. Infighting amongst the 'Dark' Elves is doable. One question I have, just out of personal curiosity, is does Eldyra survive in this continuity as Eltharion did? She was always a favorite of mine so just interested in whether or not she can be written in to the 'High' Elf faction along with other minor characters like Aislinn and such. then as for the matter of Alith Anar being with The 'High' Elves is fine, particularly since it will add a major aggressor to their faction. Alith Anar will certainly be actively involved in gearing the 'High' Elves towards conflict with the 'Dark' Elves. Actually the 'High' Elves have a nice amount of internal conflict now. The Lilleath thing...I don't know, was never too invested in it, so there is not much I can say about it. But the setup as is now sounds nice, interesting and workable to me. I'll put some thought into how the 'High' Elf faction can perhaps develop, the interaction of the former Aestyrion with other's, the decision to anoint a single Matriarch and the politics of the interactions. From what I can tell the only permanently dead characters are; Aliathra :( , Morathi and Finubar.HiddenAway (talk) 04:24, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Honestly the only reason I argue for the survival of Morathi is because her personification in Defenders of Ulthuan is what made me like Chaos for the first time. I'm all for removing her from Dark Elves for the most part though, that book series made it quite clear she's pure Slaaneshi and only uses Malekith as a connection for Elf cannon-fodder since the humans are too disorganized and dipshit for her liking. But removing her from "Dark Elves" and the Aestyrion lorewise by making her a Daemon Princess, or just going back to being Slaanesh's champion, would be interesting. Are we keeping Sigvald around? Lotta fun to be had for suggesting something in vague terms, letting players decide their own take on that. Dunno. Also, High Elves can't inhabit the tops of the Annulli. They are holes into the Warp that mutated everything that wasn't an Elf, it'd be the same as living at the Warp Gates. So if the only remnants of Ulthuan are the tips of the mountains sticking out above the water, then that means there's portals into the Warp shooting out Chaos radiation on some tiny islands in the middle of the not-Atlantic ocean. Maybe, there IS the fact that the White Lions of Chrace (kitties, not keebies) were regular lions mutated into super lions but somehow aren't Chaos-aligned monsters. But in the lore regular Chaos beasties regularly came down from the mountains, and killing them was the Chracian passtime in all of Ulthuan. In fact, one of the possible invasion routes for the Dark Elves was a pass the High Elves DIDN'T kill the monsters in, making it almost impassible for any army. One of the Gates, can't remember which. Unicorn maybe? --Thannak (talk) 06:54, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

The point about Morathi is actually intriguing and also an inventive solution to this. As you say she need not be a current member of the 'Dark' Elves for her to still be a character within the canon of the story. Personally I wouldn't object to Morathi 'dying' and then being returned as a Daemon Princess of Slaanesh. She might even still be seeking her 'Aenarion' giving her yet more reason to muck things up for Alarielle and her faction. So personally I think making Morathi a Daemon Princess is an interesting move, I certainly wouldn't object to it, but ultimately the decision on all matters should rest with AU 9th Edition Dude since its his setting so we'll wait to hear his opinion too. Other than that he point about the Annuli is a good one and, personally, I foresee that the 'High' Elf faction will most likely stick to the former colonies of Ulthuan scattered throughout he world, becoming a primarily maritime Empire. A capital is still located, for sure, so later I'll actually look at the High Elf Map again, haven't in a while, to see which options would work. At least that would be my solution. Personally I think an interesting and crucial element well eventually have to come to is talking out how End Times Khaine ran in his world so as to understand the situation of the cast and the survivors from the dead. [[User:HiddenAway|HiddenAw--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 23:01, 12 October 2015 (UTC)ay]] (talk) 08:25, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Maybe I was too quick to say they can't inhabit the Annulli summits, if somehow the events of End Times caused those portals to close. Or something. I don't know, maybe say they're contained in some kind of modified Waystone-thing that magic can be drawn from making the middle of each island into a Tower of Saphery or some shit? I dunno. Just an option I guess. A plot point I really loved is the sunken mansions of Cothique, and how the Elves who drowned the first time Ulthuan flooded refused to leave and just became ghosts living in mansions. Maybe the ghost Elf population rose or something, use it as a throwaway plot hook. Just another idea. Oh, and the final battle for Tor Elyr never happened. Supposedly the city and the invaders would be washed away by the ghosts of Ellyrion's horses which would appear as ghost-shaped waves during the final battle of Ulthuan, but that never happened. So hell, maybe the city is still floating out there with ghost horses keeping it up waiting for its final battle (I say that somewhat sarcastically, although once again it'd be a neat idea). It may be a bit out there, but Grom the Paunch was regenerative because he ate raw troll flesh, trolls are Chaos mutants technically, Grom disappeared into the Annulli where Chaos is in one version of the story. Kind of a blank check to explore too. There's also Morai'Heg's island nearby where the Vortex was. A small roaming island that enchants those who look on it, lined with skulls of men that tried to swim to it because the crazy fucking Amazon Elves dedicated to her won't let men onto the island since it contains a cave of prophesy that alters fate or some shit. So there's that too, maybe it wasn't a part of Ulthuan and was something else if someone wants to play it that way. Plus Saphery was full of flying castles and shit. --Thannak (talk) 08:48, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

I thought I'd said this elsewhere, but given the confusion, I should say how our "version" of Khaine goes. Catch me if I miss something. So, Malekith invades Ulthuan. Stymied. Imrik the Dragon Prince comes to the 'rescue' to betray his fellow High Elves and let Malekith past the Eagle Gate. Before the final battle between elves can commence, Teclis intervenes and reveals surprise surprise that Malekith really is the true phoenix king. This doesn't have to actually be true. All that matters is that Teclis can 'convince' enough people to avert war. Malekith walks through the flames (possibly with Teclis' help, like all the "Phoenix Kings" before him). Teclis makes the argument that the elves need to unite if they're going to avert the end of the world, which finally results in most of the High Elves begrudgingly laying down their arms, save Tyrion and Korhil. Tyrion draws Widowmaker. Everything goes to shit. The High, Dark, and Wood Elves fight to stop the Aestyrion. Morathi, unhappy she's been supplanted by Teclis, tries to woo her son back to her arms, but fails. She goes rebel (but gets merc'd by Caledor Dragontamer). Ulthuan starts sinking. Tyrion is ultimately defeated by the combined arms of Alith Anar, Malekith, and Orion (without everyone dying). Teclis cannot bear to let his brother die and teleports him away at the last moment, saving him. Malekith tosses away Widowmaker and leads the elves to the Empire to help fight Chaos. The end of the world is averted, however, promptly taking the wind out of the sails of elven unification. Alarielle, who learns Tyrion was saved, leaves with many of the angriest high elves (Eltharion, Alith Anar, maybe the prince from the Isle of Blood boxset). Orion and Ariel return to the forest. Malekith still has Imrik and Teclis (who Tyrion refuses to see again, despite saving him). Does that all work?--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 23:01, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

For the most part. It gives a good reason for the Elves to ally for people who want to use the united armies, gives a good reason for them to still be unique races too. Cross-allying for HE who want to use Imrik or Teclis, leaving Morathi's fate ambiguous lets DE still whip her out and even any Chaos faction players who want to use her model as a Keeper/Champion or something. Still the question of the DE and HE homes now. If Beasts get the powerup they can be booted out of Athel so the DE can take the blighted part of the woods for that nice "Maleficent's castle" setting. HE can get together with the Brets maybe, perhaps at "Lady" Lileath's urging giving that full-on cavalry of light force a lot of people in the ET threads were wanting. It may take away the mystery of the WE to hand off the light and dark, but they still have their Fey weirdness at least. But that's still wholly up to you, as is the state of the pantheon. If their gods really did incarnate as mortals or not, if Assy is still planning and if Morai is gonna do something next time; or at least if they're real in the Greek sense or weaker. Or if Aislinn and the HE/DE fleets are gone. But yeah, good start. --Thannak (talk) 01:48, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Personally the location, and thus fluff involved in that, isn't as drastically important to me so I don't mind how much of Ulthuan is or is not gone, it can be completely sunk for all I care, although I can understand the allure of certain features remaining, as you described above Thannak, and don't see anything particularly wrong with that. To just make a short comment on geography; personally I assumed that if there is a so-called 'Exiles' (Elves who don't want to serve Malekith or be Asrai) faction that it would most likely set up shop in the Colonies of Ulthuan; maybe Tor Elithis or Tor Elasor as capitals, but I honestly don't particularly mind how that goes. Then, to AU 9th Edition Dude, as an aside if its troublesome discussing in this forum you must say, is there a preferred place you'd like to discuss these matters? I simply do it here because this is the only place I know of. If you'd prefer I discuss this elsewhere please simply inform me. As to what you said about Khaine, largely it makes sense to me, only two niggling issues I have is that I'm not quite sure why Morathi isn't played straight as she was in End Times Khaine (like you did with Imrik and such) and teams up with Tyrion and the Aestyrion from the start? Losing Morathi simply unbalances the fight against the Aestyrion more then it already was in the canonical End Times (where Morathi and the Widowmaker were the Aestyrion's only insurance against the combined world-shattering might of Alarielle, Malekith, Teclis and all of Caledor's dragons). The odds are already heavily stacked against the Aestyrion so it seems strange to me to remove their major ace-in-the-hole. Is there a particular reason for Morathi's change in motivation? Aside from that the only other niggling thing is that I'd imagine Alarielle's motivation for leaving Malekith and Teclis won't be because she discovers Tyrion is alive but will be because she discovers Teclis and Malekith conspired to kill Aliathra and Finubar and purposefully caused Tyrion's corruption. But since you were only briefly touching on things I understand if that's what you meant you were just giving a rundown of things in short. Other than that it makes sense. I have some suggestions, which I'll write down, but feel free to ignore these if you want (they are mostly minor anyway I am simply putting them down here if anyone likes them):

- I'd imagine Belannar still dies, makes the fight against Arkhan seem meaningful, and thus he's out as anything other than a magic ghost (not a huge loss since he had no stats in the latest edition).

- Eltharion and Eldyra, if they survive and reach Ulthuan, will almost surely join the Aestyrion since; they both have close bonds to Tyrion, Eldyra's true loyalties lie with Tyrion and she was already willing to support him against the entire Phoenix Council and King in End Times Nagash and Eltharion has just discovered that the mission he was sent on, in which he lost many friends and comrades, including Belannar, was doomed to fail from the start since Teclis intended Aliahtra's death. In addition to this he'd discover that Maleith and Kouran killed his Nephew and Niece so Eltharion and Eldyra will definitely fight on the side of the Aestyrion here, which is nice since the Aestyrion do have a deficit of Special Characters otherwise.

- If we wish to involve Hellebron and the Cult of Khaine more (like much of End Times Khaine I was disappointed by how liminal Hellebron and the Cult was in the story) We can have the Cult of Khaine actually fighting alongside the Aestyrion this time, Hellebron and Morathi politicking against each other, so that they're more involved and the Aestyrion feel more Khainite. In addition this helps since the Court of the Phoenix King does already have five of the strongest Elves (Alarielle, Ariel, Malekith, Orion and Teclis), Morathi may no longer be an Aestyrion and has a combination of High Elf, Dark Elf and Wood Elf Special Characters (Imrik, Aislinn, Caradryn, Arlathan I'd assume, Ystranna, Kouran, Malus who I assume survives in this, Twilight Sisters, Durthu, Daith, Alith Anar and Araloth). Whereas the Aestyrion only have, if Morathi is no longer a full time member, have no-one at the same power level as the leaders of the Phoenix Court (all five of them) and its strongest member is the okay-grade Tyrion supported just by the relatively unimpressive Korhil and Lokhir. Adding Eltharion to this is nice, sure, but Eldyra doesn't help much so giving them Hellebron and Shadowblade (whilst still far from equalizing the forces) does at least help them a little bit.

Those are the suggestions I have regarding the AU events of Khaine. I also have some suggestions concerning the 'High' or 'Exiled' Elves themselves but I'll wait till you perhaps inform me where you'd like to have such a discussion.HiddenAway (talk) 05:05, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Here is fine. Or on /tg/'s Warhammer Fantasy General. Also, I made an executive decision to rewrite the quick summary of the Elves in the Setting section.

Princes of Ulthuan

Ideas for the Principalities of Ulthuan: The Annulli Mountains make up a circular chain of islands, around which a Bermuda Triangle has formed. The center of trade of the Warhammer World has is a navigational deadzone where compasses lose true north and the skies are always cloudy. However, some of Ulthuan's magical creatures, such as Griffons and Phoenixes, remain in the Annulli's surviving and feasting increasingly on a diet of fish. Naggarythe and Tiranoc were blasted by the Dark Elf invasion, but after Malekith took the Phoenix throne and Tyrion drew Widowmaker, Alith Anar sides with the Druchii. Many of the Shadow Warriors questioned their king, but when they saw the devastation wrought by the Avatar of Khaine, they understood his decision. Once Tyrion was subdued, Alith Anar broke ties with the Witch King and went into the west, towards the "New World." Imrik and Caledor sides with Malekith early and brought him victory at Eagle Gate. So, while they may have suffered at the hands of Tyrion's followers, they were protected by the Witch King from the deprivations of the Druchii. Imrik now sits on his council with Teclis, enjoying more power than he did as governor of Caledor. Ellyrion's low-lying plains were swamped as the continent sunk. Many of the wild herds of Ellyrion mustangs drowned in the cataclysmic event. Thankfully, sorcerers of Saphery managed to save large numbers of the noble beasts, teleporting them and their riders to the safety of the ships. The Everqueen and the people of Averlorn were welcomed onto the Witch King's vessels, as Malekith desired Alarielle at his side. Yvresse, a mountainous region of Ulthuan, is still largely intact after the cataclysm. Eltharion the Grim now finds himself ruling over one of the largest islands in the archipelago formerly known as Ulthuan. Having survived his encounter with Arkhan, the retconnedblindprince has joined Tyrion in rejection of the Phoenix King. Similarly, Korhil wasn't tortured and killed by Tyrion. He and the White Lions of Chrace have joined their prince in exile, going west and plotting to come back and kill the traitorous Imrik and the false Phoenix King. Low-lying Eataine was hit hard by the floods of the cataclysm, and Lothern is now a city lost beneath the sea. Luckily, what Lothern Sea Guard and cutters remained have joined Tyrion's High Elf diaspora, establishing new colonies in the west and east, and even considering taking one of the dead cities of Araby. The Vortex goes kablooey because of Morathi.--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 19:47, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Where are the actions taking place after TET happened if the Druchii abandoned Naggaroth and Ulthuan sank? I still wouldn't like for Ulthuan to sink, but if it needs to happen...also nice juxtaposition with Tyrion and Malekith.

Non-Bret Humans

• (Moved to proper section) So it looks like the major powers in the world are Brettonia and the vampires, with the orks coming back to the old world soonish to be a big threat. I would honestly say try to make another human faction able to contend so you have 2 main human factions, I would suggest estalia or Arby. Arby would be cool to have since they basically fought the skaven to a standstill outside their cities before getting rained on with warpstone and dieing. Even if I would want Kislev to be powerful I don't see that happening.

• (Moved to proper section) Araby could be a major power, of course. Don't disagree with that, at all. In fact, in the original outline for Endhammer, Araby is the reason it even exists in the first place. The Golden Magus, using the three Royal Djinni he had bound up in his ancient urns, activated the Great Hourglass of Copher (which he stole as the city was about to fall). Turned back time to -just- before Valten died, and like the Butterfly Effect, the glaive missed, Thanquol went wildcard, and the whole path of the world changed. But I'm getting side-tracked. Tilea/Estalia would also be a great idea for a human faction. But don't count out the Empire completely -- there's still half of it intact. --AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 02:19, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
• (Moved to proper section) I am not however discounting the empire, it just seems that they are out of it for now because of the looming civil war. Bretonnia seems to be doing a lot better than them plus the empire really is going to have a problem with the vampires if Vlad tries to become king again, since they got sylvania and the border princes now to call upon.Dragoon508 (talk) 04:48, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Empire

• When Vermintide comes out, you can write something for the Empire characters in it. Just an idea. --Thannak (talk) 06:07, 31 August 2015 (UTC

Ulfric Rahul 22/Feb/2017 Is no one going to talk about the fact that since Teclis stole the fire and thus Ulfric weakened possessed the body of Gregor Martak ( the supreme patriarch) And that Vendel Wolker is also alive? How about this? With the fire gone the weakened Ulfric is still in the body of Gregor Martak because he wants revenge on Teclis and probably won't stop till either one is dead (Teclis of Martak) and thus Gregor with the help of some random flagellants goes on a hunt for Teclis. And Wolker takes the rank of Reichsmarshall.

Genevieve

Canon or no? Seems like the vampire intrigue would be perfect for moving forward. She'd be Karl's agent into the workings of the undead as a neutral party. Furthermore what about Felix? Assuming Gotrek didn't become a god that means him and Felix should still be wandering around killing shit. --Thannak (talk) 05:26, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

Karl-Franz is dead. I would like to figure a way to still make Gotrek & Felix's story apply in our version of the End Times (as it did a great job with the "post-apocalyptic" feel, even if much of the story was underwhelming. And Felix retiring to run a tavern with Kat was something that people seemed to want on /tg/.

Kislev

Since I am extremely interested in this setting, I got a question on Kislev. Did it get frozen like it did in the end times by the Tzarina? Are the vampires still running around up there helping or have they retreated down to the empire? Is Albion completely gone or is there a few islands and lands still around? Since it had all those old one ruins I was kind of hoping they were still around.

How about the gods of the setting? Have they all sort of died/gotten eaten? For instance ulric if the al-ulric is still around, did teclis not kill him? Or the al-ulric come back after killing the changling version of himself. Are the winds of magic still bound to their mortal hosts? Just some basic questions that I came up with on the top of my head.Dragoon508 (talk) 06:05, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Reply to Dragoon508: I should have definitely been more clear. The Incarnates/Warhammer Super Friends never happened in this setting. Some gods are dead (like Usirian/Morr) but have been replaced (with Nagash now bound to the underworld and serving as an unwilling Anubis). Others which died in the original End Times did not in our timeline, as the First Battle of Middenheim was won. For example, Ulric is still 'alive' and the Flame of Ulric still burns. In addition, the winds of magic (beyond Shyish/Nagash) were not bound to mortal hosts. Ungrim Ironfist is not a fire-dorf.

Kislev is frozen. It is part of the reason that the Tzarina survives and is able to continue her guerrilla war. Most of the vampires have retreated from the north with the fall of Nagash and the breaking apart of the Undead Legion. Many of the von Carsteins are back in a resurgent Sylvania under Vlad (save Mannfred). The surviving Blood Dragons are with Abhorash at the Blood Keep. Ushoran is summoning the Strigoi to Moursillon. Many of the Necrarchs are dead. The Lahmians are... well, I was never very familiar with the Lahmians. Albion is mostly wiped out, save for a few island chains representing the mountains and highlands of the island that have sunk. Some odl ruins on mountain tops and cliff-sides remain. As do inbred druids.AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 14:26, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

The Empire

So if sigmar is no longer bound inside the wind of heavens, does that mean he will be able to have more influance on the world? The only reason he was so inactive is he was stuck in the vortex. Now I am not saying he should bring the sigmarines into the world, but he would be more active unless teclis is going to try to bind him again to put in the new vortex instead of sacrificing himself.Dragoon508 (talk) 07:51, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

When was this made clear? I was under the impression the vortex was held by Caledor Dragontamer and his bros? For the record, I don't think that Sigmar should have a very large role in this new world, no.--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 01:30, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Balthasar Gelt's Automatons

I have added what was suggested at /tg/ to the "Rules" section, but they really need a complete statline and some greater discussion of the rules. Any crunchmeisters here that could help? The Automatons, if you haven't read, are for those who actually want to use Sigmarine models. They are explained as clockwork warriors designed by Balthasar Gelt and Leonardo di Miragliano, powered by necromancy/souls bound by Gelt.--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 17:14, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Someone edited the Balthasar Gelt Automaton statline without asking about it or discussing it here. What's up? I'm not against the edits -- I'd just like to see some discussion on /tg/ or here.--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 00:38, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

---If Balthazar is still a Necromancer living in Nuln, shouldn't he be seeking the artifacts of Elspeth Von Drakken? Being able to control time itself with her hourglass seems like something Gelt would want his hands on ASAP. Plus I think adding the anathema rules that Elspeth had to Gelt and his Automata would be a fluffy addition, where they count as Undead and Daemons with whatever special rules apply.

You would need to explain the Anathema rules for von Drakken.--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 04:53, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

Greenskins

I wanted to discuss something from the recent /tg/ threads about the return of Gorbad as a wounded, shaman figure hiding who he truly is. Something like a Wurrzag, but less crazy and more intimidating -- peglegged and still wounded from the runefang, advising Gorfang Rotgut/Troll-Eater, one of the orcs who never got mentioned in End Times.--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 01:30, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

• (Moved to the proper section) Forgot Skarsnik. Also Wurrzag. Afterall, Grimgor and Skarsnik are Mork and Gork/Gork and Mork. Plus, Lileath should still be alive. Also as much as I hate to say it, Be'lakor should still be chilling with Drycha and Hellebron. --Thannak (talk) 08:19, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

• (Moved to the proper section) Continued Reply to Thannak: With regard to Skarsnik and Wurrzag and the Ogres, I mentioned in the early /tg/ posts that I needed more help with regard to Orc and Ogre characters beyond Grimgor Ironhide, as I really had no experience with them. So, really, it's all on you to come up with stuff! I think Skarsnik's squig died, though, right? --AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 17:19, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

• (Moved to the proper section) And as for Skarsnik -- I'm cool with whatever. What would you like to see be done about him?--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 22:20, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

• (Moved to the proper section) Skarsnik was actually traumatized and defied greenskin lore by mourning Gobbla. May be interesting to explore that, and parallel Grimgor's journey in reverse between east and west. Not sure how Wurrzag fits in though. He was the will of Gork and Mork, and Gork and Mork's champions both failed to gather into a supreme and final WAAAGH against the greatest enemy, Chaos. So if G&M are still gods, their reaction to the whole thing becomes important. --Thannak (talk) 23:01, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

• (Moved to the proper section) To the Orcs -- the one thing I don't like about not including the Incarnates is that we don't get the mighty Waaagh! to end all Waaagh!s and Grimgor's head-butting of Archaon. But that was kind of an end-of-the-world scenario in its own right.
• (Moved to the proper section) Could have Grimgor headbutt somebody big, maybe just invent a random Warrior leader for him to kick the ass of so nobody's favorite Worfs to him. Can't really imagine an ongoing story for Skarsnik other than marching off to die, but the idea of him wandering and being a single calm greenskin surrounded by frenzied members of his own kind who doesn't really seek war anymore and just finds it is interesting. But I'd let a hardcore O&G player have the say, I'm only really big on Savage Orcs and their lore doesn't even change in AoS, let alone post-End Times. --Thannak (talk) 03:43, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Skarsnik ought to be the one to let the Old World know that Grimgor's on his way back. With Gobbla gone and still riding high on the success of WAAAGH Grimgor, he's liable to have beefed up a little by fighting for himself. He's got gobbos and hob-goblins with him, and we could even throw in a little Revolutionary Grot into him. He wants to make sure all da Boyz can get a good scrap when they want it, instead of 1% of the Bosses doin' 99% of da krumpin' like Grimgor is.

Undead

• (Moved into the proper category) I guess it depends how much control Nagash still has. If he can manifest for short periods still (letting people use his model), gets all souls without Chaos intervention, or can control the Death Wind enough to weaken those he doesn't favor then he'll still own some of the Undead. Nef is about control (her vampires basically ran a mostly female Illuminati/Court of Owls worldwide) and Khalida is about proper rule, her god, and killing assholes. So they could maintain a fortress under an awkward truce and provide a haven for the living cool with Necromancy. Maybe have the Moot be relevant for deciding whether to join them or remain with the Empire? Apophas depends entirely on Nagash. If Nagash's afterlife is what Apophas wants (otherwise he could go rogue), if Nagash uses him to obtain promising souls to have Necros revive and do his bidding, or what. Skarsnik was last seen leaving the Slayers for the big final fight, and Reynolds said he wound up in the final fight with the Incarnates against Chaos. So he'd be in the vicinity during that conflict. As for Gobbla...could always have an undead Squig to control a greenskin Warboss with if you want. Might be wanking undead too much though at the cost of greenskin fans. Braugh Slavelord is the only notable Ogre I know of that'd be worth mention. He doesn't have much backstory, he just kind of exists to use. Plus, Albion is always a thing with its uncorrupted Giants. --Thannak (talk) 19:59, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

(Moved into the proper category) Suggestion here as well is to include some stuff about Drachenfels since he is still a fan favorite. Probably about him fucking off back to his fortress after he takes a ton of people with him. Starting up his own psudo army maybe? The vampire counts are a pretty powerful faction if you count all the border princes they converted, easily a pretty big nation just with themselves. With High Queen Khalida -- yes, please, let's do something with her! And let's not have her settle her grudge with Neferata! Make it even worse! And I always did like Apophas and his Scarab Body. Dragoon508 (talk) 06:28, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

(Moved into the proper category) Reply to Thannak: I'm not at home, so I can't address everything, right now. Suffice to say, if you have ideas for the Tomb Kings or other Vampire counts, please feel free to add them. Not my forte, whatsoever. Maybe make Phar some "Poor Yorrick" for another Tomb King or Vampire Count? However! Ulrika and Be'Lakor were main characters in the last Gotrek & Felix novels which I won't spoil for you. Suffice to say, that's the reason why I am not mentioning any of the characters from Gotrek & Felix (or else my inclination would be to make Felix Jaeger an Elector-Count -- plenty of them are dead, anyway. AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 15:00, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

(Moved into the proper category) I'd prefer Khalida and Neferata's rivalry to remain and for the both of them to leave the Moot. The idea of Tomb Kings dicking around in halfling country seems just... cringey and awful. Let's not keep that. I would prefer to scrap Nagash from the setting entirely, as he's just too powerful to keep around. He would automatically win in this torn up and tattered world. If people want to use him, they can play End Times. But if other people want to see more Nagash, I'll concede. Apophas serving as his lackey (along with Arkhan the Black and Mannfred) sounds good. An avatar of the new Death God doing his bidding because of promises that his soul will be returned. What should Chaos-touched Settra be up to in Endhammer? AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 22:20, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

(Moved into the proper category) Nef has a blank check, she has agents everywhere so she can retire wherever. Her original desire was to retake Lahmia, giving her a reason to fight all her ancestors and put her square next door to Khalida. Khalida is pretty much just a vampire killer, so she'd go back to her pre-ET self unchanged basically unless she took some people home with her. With her god being possibly dead she's lost her divine support though, unless you say that because its venom was literally in her veins that she took the reigns of godhood. Like Aislinn/Mathlann to Nagash's Asuryan/Khaine. I'm fairly certain Settra's fans would hate him going Chaos though. They got pretty big (no pun intended) boners/ladyboners over "SETTRA DOES NOT SERVE, SETTRA RULES". I for one don't care too much for Nagash, but as a rule I'd say to try and keep everything Warhammer Fantasy in the game so AoS would remain its own thing. Say Nagash can only manifest portions of his power in his relics, and sparingly so he really has to budget his manifesting carefully to achieve maximum effect with minimum result. Say he has to fight Chaosor something so he can't keep a Nagash puppet going in the material plane too long. Also, you should probably decide of ArkhanxNeferata remains a thing or if it was just a fling they shared twice for brief periods. I'd vote for it to stay, people seem to like it more than feminazi illuminati Neferata and Boba Fett Arkhan, but its your thing. --Thannak (talk) 23:01, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

(Moved into the proper category) Doesn't have to remain my thing, though. I don't control this! Anyone can add stuff. ArkhanxNeferata seems like it could stay. I don't have anything against it. And sure, let Nagash manifest from time to time. Regarding Settra -- he was brought back by Chaos, but that doesn't mean he serves Chaos. He's an ungrateful shit, essentially. I was asking, with regard to Settra, what he would do now that he's woken up and angry? Regarding Khalida, was anything done about Asaph? Did Nagash kill Asaph as well?

(Moved into the proper category) So Nef and Arkhan bonded over hating their position in life. Arkhan seemed to go back and forth on wanting to be bound to Nagash in ET, Nef always looked for independence but mostly just gets apocalypse-tier pissed when someone is promoted over her or doesn't pay respect (again, like girl Settra). But she recognizes Nagash is higher than her, and every time he manifested she served him. So...now that he controls the afterlife, she'd have a good reason not to piss him off and would likely obey any direct orders while otherwise her and Arkhan would be on their own doing their own shit. So there's two options for Nef; going back to manipulating the world, or take over directly and establish a kingdom. Arkhan just needs a purpose in that, he was just kind of a merc for the Tomb Kings for quite awhile (like raising a bridge made of bones over the mountains to allow a pissed off Necrotect to attack the Empire in exchange for some Warsphinxes) and otherwise not doing a whole lot so I suppose he'd enjoy holding down the homefront and being sent to fuck shit up or aid someone every so often. I don't know what happened to Asaph, I kinda assumed he was killed. --Thannak (talk) 03:43, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Here's an idea I have for the undead; They stay two factions but they are the Vampires (mostly Von Carstein's under the rule of newly-returned Vlad) and the Undead Legion of Nehekhara (like the one in the End Times, except they're formed from a grudging alliance between the Tomb Kings under Settra and vampires under Neferata; rather than both factions browbeaten by a demigod Nagash). The fluff continues as it did in the End Times until Nagash entered the Black Pyramid and the Underworld. He still beats Usirian, but this time we throw Tzeentch a bone; he and his daemonic armies attack before Nagash can become a full god of the dead. The end result has Nagash deified but trapped in the Underworld by Tzeentch, ala General Zod in the Phantom Zone (or how Tzeetch trapped Sigmar in the Wind of Heavens in End Times fluff). He see through undead avatars or influence through artifacts but cannot act in the Warhammer world... unless he escapes which he's trying his damnedest to do. Mannfred is nominally with the Vampires, but being Mannfred. In my opinion the whole "Nehekhara gets destroyed" and Settra's interaction with Chaos can be axed. In this version, the Vampires special characters are; Vlad (Mortarch), Isabella, Mannfred (Mortarch), the Red Duke (tweaked rules) and Krell. The Undead Legions of Nehekhara special characters are; Settra, Neferata, Arkhan (who can't be in the same army as Settra or vica versa), Khalida, Rahmotep and Nekaph. I've added more in the relevant sections on the page. Feel free to comment or prune. Necro thread, I know, but fitting given this is about undead. Flufflion 03:43, December 14 2015 (UTC)

Vampire Counts Discussion

Going to be adding Bloodline characteristics for the Vampires in the vein of 6th edition.--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 20:37, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

• (Moved into the proper category) W'soran and the Necrarchs, Neferata and the Lahmians. Her plot was more or less being in charge, or at least feeling like it. Like girl-Settra, although like Khalida knowing when to pretend to back down and become a Mortarch. That and the strange romance between her and Arkhan, and the awkward end of her rivalry with Khalida. Not to mention the Lahmians should still in theory be controlling humans world-wide. Plus, Genevieve and Ulrika never really made an appearance. --Thannak (talk) 06:07, 31 August 2015

-Another idea for the direction for Mousillon. What about Abhorash being the new ruler of the "Grand Duchy of Mousillon", rather than taking over some bastardized order created by a man (Walch) who wound up being too weak (Khornate champion?) to stay to the true path that Abhorash created? In this way Mousillon will be a larger and more powerful kingdom rather than just being some ghoul infested city. It can be a dark reflection of what Bretonnia is, home to Knights of the Black Grail who know the truth about the Lady of the Lake after drinking from the False Grail (see Affair of the False Grail in 5th edition army book). Mousillon can be both a kingdom of the dead with vampires, skeletons and all their sort, but also to dark knights and false prophetesses who want the truth of the lies of the Lady of the Lake and Gilles le Breton to be revealed to the rest of Bretonnia. So in the end Bretonnia has a natural rival and enemy to fight both physically and spiritually, while Abhorash rules a kingdom where he can create his perfect warriors with a blend of martial skill, discipline and chivalry. --I actually kinda like this idea...Does fuck over Ushoran, though.--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 19:55, 4 April 2016 (UTC) ---Just put Ushoran back in Mourkain. --Thannak (talk) 22:34, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Tomb Kings Discussion

It has been suggested that Nagash appears to be incompetent. I didn't think he seemed incompetent so much as arrogant. Can we get specific ideas about how we would revise Nagash? In addition, more substance for the Tomb Kings like Settra/Apophas would be welcome.--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 14:08, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Nagash seems to be in the position of being a Chaos God almost. Absent as a character in the world, served by massive legions, only loses due to full-retard backstabbing and wanking a faction of posterboys. So I'd roll with that idea; Naggy has achieved his goal and established himself in a Death-themed section of the Warp like Horned Rat, also explaining why he fucks up so much due to being an arrogant backstabbing prick and doesn't actually perma-lose. Make Nagash models be like Great Unclean Ones to Nurgle, mini-me manifestations of his will. Group up the undead between those loyal put of desire for power and immortality (like how Morathi used to view Slaanesh before that Atharti bullshit) or those bound to him (Apophas as Wulfrik, since he basically already was) including Neferata, Mannfred, and Arkhan, and those on the mortal side of things like Vlad and Isabella, Ushoran, and Khalida. Liche priests dedicated to the old ways would just become Liches lorewise. --Thannak (talk) 15:42, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

• (Moved into the proper category) High Queen Khalida for sure needs a mention. Her only character motivation was being an Egyptian "good queen" like you'd get in any fairy tale over her kingdom of priests dedicated to the Snek god and her fuckton of living statues, and killing all Vampires especially her cousin Neferata. But being a good queen, she knew when to bow to someone stronger. First to Settra, then to Nagash. Nagash forced her to get along with Neferata and the Vampires, and in fact their last moment in End Times was pretty much shrugging off their rivalry. So...I have no idea what you'd do with this, but it's there. Most of the other important Tomb Kings were forgotten about, barring the ones who were killed and they've never really had enough lore to make the ones only mentioned once in sidebars memorable to most fans. There's Apophas, who was punished for killing his family to take the throne by Usirian by wandering the world trying to claim a soul equal to his own, which is something impossible meaning he was just a punished random wandering psycho assassin like Wulfrik The Wanderer. Could do something with him and Nagash. There was a King Tut Tomb King mentioned once, Prince Tutankhanut with a golden body. King Phar had his skull tossed in the desert by Settra in ET:Nagash, but he could still do something. Sehenesmet of Quatar was just a Vizier who was pretty much a Necrotect, and built essentially giant robots of the TK gods and mythological monsters before putting himself in one. The "Barrow Kings" were druids of the early humans who managed to achieve the Tomb King internment techniques in the Old World, long before Sigmar and were never mentioned again really. Amanhotep hates Bretonnia because they kidnapped him mistakenly thinking he was one of their ancestors. Behedesh fights Goblins in the Badlands, Setep wanted to control the Border Princes, Alkharad and the Slayers make eternal war over a disk set in a hammer belonging to a Dwarf who raided Nehekhara for gold way back when, Pharakh was killed by Empire troops and was waiting to resurrect for revenge, and so on. --Thannak (talk) 06:07, 31 August 2015

Could add living beings to Nehekhara through something. Nagash is no longer in the world, the Wind of Death no longer flows through it, and Nagash forced all the Tomb Kings out so they're going to be coming home rather than having been there all along. Maybe make it like a flooding of the Nile, say that during the battle with Valten and Archaon that the planet sorta cracked leading to the Wind of Life flowing through the middle. --Thannak (talk) 03:43, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

I monitored /tg/ Endhammer/Warhammer Fantasy discussion today, seems like there's interest in someone adding more TK lore but nobody is actually willing to put forth ideas. Someone mentioned adding in the Curse of Zandri Tomb King from Dreadfleet back in since no undead other than Konrad really stayed down in End Times it seems (or Ushoran, but since they rezzed him in a BL novel it's more an issue of him being forgotten than anything). Nobody can agree on what to do with Elves still it seems too, as a side note. --Thannak (talk) 06:21, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Today I added some ideas for the Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts. I think the reason people are unwilling to add things is because it will have a large influence on the story. I've tried my hand, feel free to discuss, comment or add. Flufflion 03:43, December 14 2015 (UTC)

Ogres

• (Moved to the proper section) Ogres are like Tomb Kings, they run on one-mention characters in fluff sidebars although most Ogre ones don't survive to the modern age for obvious reasons. But there IS that Necromancer Ogre named Braugh The Slavelord I wrote an article about recently. --Thannak (talk) 06:07, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

(Moved to the proper section) Braugh Slavelord's model is ugly as sin from the back. Dear god. Why did I look at that? --AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 22:20, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Braugh is a nice blank check since he barely had any lore other than being a slaving asshole who keeps undead via magic artifact. So he could:

• 1) Have gone with Grimgor and become a character in Cathay along with the rest of the Ogres.
• 2) Gone west, hooked up with Nagash's forces in exchange for more magic goodies.
• 3) Become a merc for the more liberally minded portions of the Empire.

Unless Grimgor needs the undead boost, I'd go with 2 or 3. 2 has the most potential I think, although its important to note most people don't have access to his model so he should probably be stuck with more Ogres, living or dead, so he can be an excuse for someone to fluff up their Lore of Undeath Ogre wizard rather than be an awkward character you can't emulate in any way outside homebrew. --Thannak (talk) 06:29, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Lizardmen

• Oxyotl? Maybe the return of Kroak, as like Morathi GW already ate the incredulity for you. --Thannak (talk) 06:07, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
• Thoughts, Maybe all the traditional Slaan (Mazda and his pals) are now all Relic Priests like Kroak, having fried the last of their neurons by the effort of their mass evacuation of lustria. Maybe deep in the jungles of the Southlands a Spawn Pool issues forth a single fragile tadpole like creature, the first (Only?) of the Last Spawning. Lizardmen now need to find a new place in a destroyed world while safeguarding their last chance at a new Mage Priest to understand the Great Plan. I'd love to flip the Lizardmen Dynamic a bit
• Another idea from JackCrack: Perhaps the fractured chaos moon brought down more than just Warpstone onto the surface of the planet. Scattering more Golden Plaques across the globe for the Lizardmen to seek in order to divine the next step in the Great Plan

Salkalten

I just wanted to let you know that this is a fantastic idea. What Warhammer needed for a long time(since all the Norscans were turned into Chaos worshippers which I think is a faulty premise) was more of a civilized / Denmark style of Norse. In fact, just the mention of it made me very happy. If the Fail Workshop realized the potential within Fantasy, they'd make Sigmarines unto a parallel product(like Mordheim or Man o War) rather than it nixing the universe.

Because I really do like Norscans, I just don't necessarily like the Chaos aspect of it. And wanted more of a schism between "weak southerners" and "crazy, mutated northlanders" in Norsca, but I guess Salkalten will do.

Come to think of it, it offers rich possibilities for alliance(s). Just by looking at the world map, granted it's not post TET map, but prior to it from Gitzman's Gallery, you can form a "Northern Alliance" by allying with Erengrad, Neues Emskrank, Norden and possibly with Dietershafen and Salzenmund too.

JACKCRACK: Love this idea, might be an idea to look into Danelaw and the settling of England by the Vikings for inspiration, a new Elector Count trying to balance the needs of his powerful warriors coming off the Chaos high and the needs of his new subjects in the Empire

Thanks, guys! I do appreciate it. It's been a while since I've been on this page. I got more and more disillusioned the more AoS content I saw coming out and the more /tg/ grew bored of the threads, but it's nice to see people were still editing this, responding, and making additions.--AU 9th Edition Dude (talk) 04:52, 21 March 2019 (UTC)