Talk:Fallen Angels
Combined Unforgiven vs Space Wolves[edit]
Before we get into an edit war, Just to qualify the recent edit, the Unforgiven are noted for the close ties they share beyond simply their opinion of the fallen. They have been shown to be willing to trade officers with one another (in the Codex), they "incorrectly" refer to each other as brothers instead of cousins (the novel Pandorax), and the second founding chapters at least have been shown to take orders on occasion from the supreme grand master (e.g Vraks and a few instances in the Jericho Reach), also the inquisition and the High Lords of Terra actively suspect them of legion building (also in the Codex). By contrast, the wolves, though undoubtedly over strength, can actually be numbered in the rules as playable companies. yes, they 7E codex says that Leman Russ refused to split his Legion an retained twelve companies of hundreds of warriors, this is clearly no longer the case 10,000 years later, plus in the Battle of the Fang in M32-33, much of the under-structure of the Fang was already being abandoned and the corridors were quiet --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 19:28, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
If this isn't the case then why does the 7th edition codex say that it is? 7th edition changed a lot about the wolves, including all but removing any sort of tactics from that group, making them on par with the World Eaters in terms of strategy (again, it actually says they prefer just a blind infantry charge), and I haven't seen anything in the codex that says their numbers have significantly decreased. - Triacom (talk)
I'm not disputing the fact that the Wolves are clearly not a Codex Chapter or that they are not oversized, and when put together have the potential to overwhelm any other single chapter (and maybe several considering the reputation of the Wolves). But for the fact that Great Companies have actual rules in that very same 7E codex, even if you count up twelve of them then added in the chapter support in terms of Rune/Iron/Wolf Priests & Dreadnoughts and Vehicles, they could not add up to any sort Legion at least not in a sense comparable to other legions of many thousands. In fact if we went further than this and said that each Company was 1000 warriors they would still only add up to a very very small Legion in itself, which might have been true in the time of the Horus Heresy but I think we all realise this is not the case in 40,000. Again, as I posted originally, during the battle of the Fang, the Twelfth Great Company only had a single Strike Cruiser available, those being documented as capable of transporting and supporting a single Battle Company in other Chapters (Battle Barges by contrast can support up to three) so I think that gives a good indication into reasonable scale. I did some research today and the Apocalypse formation for the Great Company actually provides the better fit, since the cap on Blood Claws has no upper limit, and from there you can generate pretty impressive numbers. By contrast I'm not saying the Dark Angels themselves are Legion either, but they are the ONLY Chapter other than the Astral Claws (that I can find so far) that the term "Legion-Building" has ever actually been used in canon to describe them --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 16:10, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
- That being said, I do concede that the Space Wolves have a VERY impressive battlefleet, listed in the 7E codex as eight battle barges and thirty or so Strike Cruisers. Not counting all of the stationary defenses and escorts, those ships alone could accommodate ~5400 Astartes Warriors. I myself have put forward the number of Space Wolves at around 3000 during periods of high recruitment if we use the Apocalypse Great Company as a guide for an Actual Great Company, which seems like a reasonable number (you could go nuts with Blood Claws and have unlimited size... but that would be silly), and that also falls in line with the fact that most chapters have more fleet assets than battle brothers to carry in them, which is common-sense, since to lose just a single vessel would cripple the mobility of the entire organisation. I also proposed that they might have been around 6000 or greater during the Horus Heresy, so the fleet assets match up assuming they got them back from the Wolf Brothers chapter, since it was genetic instability that caused them to break-down, not going rogue with their fleets (yes I know some ended up in the Battle of the Fang on the side of Magnus, I will have to re-read that, but I'm just trying to make sense of the numbers we've got) --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 17:20, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
The Space Wolves companies are not based on any sort of average, while one might be small another might be massive, and since they're oversized we cannot tell just how many of them are in each of their ships since they might be one of the few chapters that can make full use of thier fleet depening on how many Marines they have. You do have to concede though that the original speculated size of the Dark Angels posted if they were to try and call in their successor chapters (above legion strength) is absolutely absurd (they would need well over 100 full strength successor chapters to qualify as above the average legion strength, and if they did they alone could mop the floor with the 13 Black Crusade without needing any outside help), and I don't believe for a second the successor chapters would help kill fellow Astartes unless it's clear their secret is in danger of leaking (which right now it is not), that's flat out heretical as far as they're concerned. If they did come into conflict over this I believe it's more likely they'd just do a penitent crusade instead of declare war, that way the Templars leave somewhat satisfied (though by no means trusting) and the Dark Angels don't have to give up any secrets. In light of what you posted though and in the interest of not having an edit war I'm going to edit the article to still favour the Angels, but make it slightly more ambiguous with both their numbers, the Space Wolves, and the Black Templars since we do not know concretely how many each of these have, and how many could be called upon if they were to fight, since numbers mean nothing if they cannot reach the battle. - Triacom (talk)
Agreed, there is no number given and we can only make educated guesses when we consider surrounding facts that point us in a general direction. I've got no problem with the article as is. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 07:20, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
Fallen angels are really alpha legionnares.[edit]
The fallen angels have likely been lost in the warp or killed. The ones the dark angels are hunting today are actually alpha legionnares trying to drive the dark angels into heresy.
