Talk:Fire Emblem

...So, in the interest of not bein' an edit warrior... you may've corrected a couple've my complaints and factual errors, but in the process you restored many factual errors I had corrected and a shitload of whinier, less-substantiated, nitpickier complaints I hosed down and set fire to. And I ain't happy about that, but I'm coming here so that we can try to strike an accord, and get what we both want. In my case, I would very much like to have at least some of my work survive. --SpectralTime (talk) 05:06, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

What do you want added or removed? Admiral Apathy (talk)

Coulda sworn people called Bartre a good axe-unit back in my day... guess the tiers've shifted, huh? I do welcome corrections to stuff like that, Agiltek. Sorry. --SpectralTime (talk) 00:32, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

...Sigh. This historical-revisionism, "old-school best school, newfags go home" eternal back-and-forth exhausts me. You can say you want to be fair all you want, you're still erasing legitimate criticism of the aged-like-milk Archanea games whose only merit to the franchise is that the Japanese market can't shoot enough of the nostalgia they provoke into their veins, without even bothering to actually defend their archaic mechanics beyond a weak-ass "isn't this wacky lol" that's a reprint of a joke already made earlier in the entry, and of an installment that was controversial in the extreme with, and sometimes verging on downright hated by the fanbase even at launch to modest critical praise at best that has only been leavened with time (Radiant Dawn), in exchange for dumping a lot of stupid tumblr groupthink criticisms on one of the most popular and important installments in the history of the franchise, many of them which you cannot deny can be legitimately applied to many earlier installments, and which reeks of the same old "Newbs in my clubhouse!" mentality that had people lamenting that Blazing Blade was getting an English release. It does not incline me to bother listening to you, frankly, any more than I listen to the people who occasionally vandalize the articles here on modern RPG products to rant about how 3.5/2e/Basic was an immaculate masterpiece from which all modern games are disgusting, heretical deviations meant to appeal to the smelly mobs of the unwashed hoi polloi. And, I give up. Do what you want. I'll just go back to curating various Fire Emblem pages on TVTropes from mobs of vandals who all coincidentally talk and think exactly like you while claiming they somehow represent independent thought in this equation. --SpectralTime (talk) 06:27, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

...That was extremely rude of me. I'm not happy with these edits because I do feel they're defensively deleting extremely-legitimate criticism of old titles that only get a free pass from an extremely-small and insular community of elitist grognards who don't even represent the views of the vast majority of the old-school fanbase, let alone the medium- or modern fans... but hell, you didn't wholesale erase all my contributions, and I don't want to minimize that. I'm frustrated, but I'm also posting at 2:35 AM and I'm frustrated in part because it feels like we can't both get what we want: you, to defend wholeheartedly installments of the series I hate and feel I am being extremely generous by not dragging out behind the woodshed and beating with iron bars until the marrow oozes out of their pulverized bones, and to shit on modern installments for things I either don't agree are problems or think are being wildly exaggerated by people with bad ideas of what defines quality or have willfully ignored the presence of in other installments, and I, to... well, to do the opposite of those things. And I don't know how to compromise between us, and that's also part of what frustrates me. That, and I keep having trauma-flashbacks to every time I ever got called names and treated like shit by a subsection of fans you seem to share many opinions with, which is also unfair to you, and on me. You've treated me respectfully even when I didn't deserve it, and I'm sorry. I will leave the above section here, because I do not want to be a coward who erases his mistakes or rewrites history, but I also want to say that it is stupid and mean-spirited of me to attack you like that. You're a grown-ass person, like me, whose voice deserves to be heard every bit as much as my own. I don't have to agree with you to respect you. Sorry. --SpectralTime (talk) 06:38, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

I am willing to take this to discussion, again. I have laid forth many criticisms you yourself admit are legitimate, and argued in ways you admit you have no counter for that all your complaints about Awakening, save that the translation, while lighthearted, is unfaithful to the original in some respects (and even that is a very arguable point in terms of whether or not it actually negatively affects the quality of the game) are either presented as automatically bad on extremely specious evidence (creating a customizable protagonist rather than a preset one when the actual difference between the two is fairly negligible is the obvious example), reliant on dogmatism without an actual argument (unfaithful translation as automatically bad and wrong), extremely prominent in other games in the series (shaky continuity and meandering plotlines both riddle Blazing Sword, and no one cares including me unless they're dragging it for being more popular than its predecessor), or ascribe to the Archanea games a degree of depth they simply do not warrant. Complaining about the taguel not showing up is the nadir of this; why should it even be addressed at all? That world is not very well fleshed out; it's not like the much-deeper Jugdral or Tellius games failed to acknowledge their existence. This is why I am fundamentally extremely unsympathetic to you, man. Because, at every stage of this process, I have gone out of my way to try to incorporate your point of view, and to add arguments you make that I do not personally agree with so that your voice can be heard, and you can't dispute my arguments so you try to rip my tongue out and silence me. --SpectralTime (talk) 07:30, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Your only argument against the criticism's of Awakening's plot was that the games they were piggybacking off of were "shallow and they're arguing based on dogmatism and nostalgia", which is zero context and blatantly biased. You're just labeling it bad without explaining. Awakening's plot has obvious plotholes, so much so that the wiki has an entire section dedicated to all of them. Mystery of the Emblem never had gaping plotholes like an entire arc popping into existence and never accomplishing anything for 1000 years, then only be mentioned once in the story. And you're really going out of your way to completely rip on older titles, far moreso then Awakening's criticism was mentioned. And finally, Hector is officially an Armored Knight, not a leather clad and headband wearing Fighter. He does not have the movement and stat line of a fighter. Hector has; very high defense unlike a fighter, has very low speed unlike a fighter, has low movement as a Great lord unlike a Warrior, is a General in Binding Blade, is an armored unit in the game/cipher/Heroes, and his uniform looks exactly like Oswin's as opposed to the leather worn by Bartre and Dorcas. Admiral Apathy (talk) 17:05, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

I tried to be more conciliatory in my edits this morning... guess I failed. Oh well. Here's where I step back and give up again, for a long time if not forever. I do think you should at least clean up the grammar and spelling errors in your work, though. And possibly put back in some of those corrections for mistakes I tried to include? I don't know. You've successfully convinced me that we'll just have to agree to disagree, since I try to keep your shit when we edit war and you feel free to dump as many babies out with the bathwater as necessary. --SpectralTime (talk) 18:06, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

That said... I'd somehow forgotten that Hector doesn't gain a movement bonus upon promotion. Perils of always using Boots on the same guy, eh? I still think he's more of a high-defense Fighter than an Armor Knight, but I guess I've found more sympathy for your viewpoint there regarding his promotion.

As to ripping on earlier titles more than Awakening... I've literally added more criticism by length of Awakening than entire entries of the earlier titles in the series I "ripped on," enough to make a whole 'nother paragraph if that wouldn't fuck up the formatting and cause the whole damn thing to look ugly and discontinuous. And this morning, I came back and went out of my way to try to not only incorporate your defenses and moderate my criticism, removing some of my harsher analyses, but to incorporate critiques I'd solicited from other Fire Emblem fans to not only correct errors, but to get opinions from at least one guy I know is a Shadow Dragon guy. As to plot holes... sigh. I don't see that as a super-solid argument against a game's pure quality, because Awakening is clearly going for a more light-hearted story than the dense realpolitik of the Tellius or Jugdral titles, just like the original Archanea games it's in-continuity with. And Archanea isn't exactly a super-detailed world about which every little fact is known; that's why eternal fan theories about all the other games being on other continents even exist. It's an old-fashioned NES excuse world, man. We're not exactly complaining about the insertion of rabbit-men into The Lord of the Rings here, where every rock and tree has a three hundred page history and half-a-dozen constructed languages with detailed linguistic analysis created by a trained philologist all inform carefully-crafted cultures. Dragon Quest doesn't get to be considered a deep fantasy masterpiece just because it was the first in the series; it gets credit for trying new things but most people admit that that first game has aged like milk and doesn't get to be considered immaculate anymore. And those who don't? I think saying they're blinded by nostalgia is a very-valid way of putting it, just like I think that reflexively deleting criticism of earlier titles or trying to rework them into ways they're actually awesome and great comes across as thin-skinned and defensive of you. Especially when, again, I try to keep your shit and you throw out mine.

As to translation... I just got zero sympathy for purists arguing based on dogma that localization is bad because it's bad. There's no argument there; it holds a very-debatable truth to be self-evident. Phoenix Wright would not be a beloved piece of pop culture and a critical and commercial success here in the West if it didn't skillfully use localization to take a bunch of jokes and situations that would not make sense to a non-Japanese-speaking Western audience and rework them into witty, charming scripts. Skies of Arcadia would not be a beloved cult classic if they hadn't all-but rewritten the entire game from scratch, keeping the plot the same but redoing all the character dialogue so that character tics that would not have come across in the manner intended to a Western audience are redone while maintaining the core of their personalities. None of these things made the games worse, many of them resulted in an improved product for the Western audience. And this modern movement of hurling localization onto the bonfire of the vanities with religious fervor, dragging it outside of town to be stoned to death, witch-hunting for the slightest, most minor changes as reason that the translators must be crucified... Well, again. I just got no sympathy. Their argument is based on unreasoning, kneejerk dogma, and mine on historical precedent and actual consideration of how it affects the quality of the work of art. --SpectralTime (talk) 18:36, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Your version is blatantly NPOV accusing anyone of liking Thracia 776 or having any criticism towards Awakening of being a "nostalgia tard Neckbeard" and other weasel words. And if Archanea is so terrible bad with so many plot holes that you fail to list(nevermind that the series answers most questions about the world even explaining how tomes work), why did Awakening feel the need to piggy back off its popularity

If anything you deleting of the mildest criticisms of Awakening or Fates, shows you are the one that is thin skinned. You say want the article to be neutral, yet when it implements both praise and criticism to all games, you throw a fit and rewrite the article so it only praises the games you like and only criticizes the games you admit to hating. If anything I could just as easily say you're nostalgia blind about Awakening given how old it is now and how later games have improved on practically everything in it.

And Hector is totally an armor: Armored Axe knights have existed prior to him, he has very high skill unlike the inaccurate fighters, his brother is a General, in the game's beta, Hector promoted to General, and anti armor weapons like Hammers and ArmorSlayers literally deal effective damage to Hector. Admiral Apathy (talk) 19:18, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Plus this wiki is about tabletop games, people who come to the article will want to read real info on the original TCG rather then just your rant that it sucks and no one should play it.

And that localization rant had nothing to do with what we're talking. Admiral Apathy (talk) 19:33, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Well, for one, a decent chunk of what you're erasing isn't even my work, so there's that. For another, if they're not here to read my opinions, then they're not here to read yours, so the solution is cutting every individual game entry rather than leaving it as-is. For a third, I didn't even make that last edit, which at least emboldens me that a third party has seen your poorly-written, badly-spelt, mangled-English knee-jerk fawning defenses for what they are. For a fourth, saying my localization arguments have nothing to do with the conversation moments after reverting the page to restore a lengthy rant on why Awakening sucks because baaaaw changed = bad translation suggests that you're not interested in having a legitimate discussion, but in silencing dissent and promoting your view at its expense.

Nonetheless, if you're going to suggest the remedy is to remove all editorializing about the games in question, well, I'll take it.

Also, please don't move Laguz back to the bottom, because your inability to recognize that the classes after Lord are fucking alphabetized has been a great burden on my conscience for much of this process. --SpectralTime (talk) 20:36, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

You erased almost everything done by Agitek and Boyd the reaver, all the complaining I did erase was only from you. I've been polite to you this whole time even when you've insulted again and again, and even worked at a compromise when you had abandoned the page. And I get absolutely no gratitude from you, just more whining about how games older then Awakening suck and the only who play them are weeaboos, note I've never said or edited anything so hostile unlike you.

I said nothing about localization, you're Skubing about an argument that doesn't exist and my edits simply mentioned the positive points and negative points of Awakening. Your edits deleted anything positive about the TCG or Thracia 776 among other games, whilst leaving nothing but a giant hatefilled Skub about how they suck and no one should play them.

And removing POV means removing your gigantic rant about the TCG is crap because its old, so I don't appreciate you restoring it. Admiral Apathy (talk) 23:21, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

I didn't write that. It was like that before I touched this page. In fact, after you edited it in an apparent effort to imbue undue and ahistorical importance and meaning into an obscure game I literally can't find information about after days of looking, I went back and moderated the original entry to try to incorporate your assertions about its historical value, and before you edited it I went out of my way to mention it was notable for being a source of artwork for various wikis. And as to your complaints that I'm being rude... well, it's not easy to be polite when I expend hours trying to see things from your point of view and incorporate your criticisms into my work, moderating my old complaints about games I really hate quite a lot to be much more even-handed, and all you have to do is click on the undo button and dig in your heels and shout nonono and never give a single solitary inch in response to my giving quite a lot until you exhaust my stamina and I give up and go away. But, either way, I guess this settles things. --SpectralTime (talk) 23:37, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Someone else will have to fix this idiot's horseshit someday, maybe after he's gotten tired of futzing around on a wiki almost entirely unrelated to his interests and moved on. Won't be me. I'm out forever. --SpectralTime (talk) 17:00, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

I trimmed down the praise/criticism section to mainly focus on each game's additions and be less of "the great wall of text." Admiral Apathy (talk) 17:21, 24 July 2020 (UTC)