Talk:First Founding

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Hey guys, are there no estimates for the White Scars or what?

Not really, all the other figures for the legions have been pieced together from the Forgeworld books, which haven't got as far as the Scars yet. The novel series isn't much help either, because a Departmento Munitorum general gets attached to the Legion to make sense of their logistics, since they move around far too much and don't send back reports. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 17:13, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

Ah okay, thanks for the clarification!

I thought that info on the Tarot cards was kind of interesting. --Not LongPoster Again 01:35, 18 August 2012 (BST)

Legions in 40k[edit]

While I realise this is skub, I've taken the issue here rather than argue in the article. I believe the point has been missed regarding the Ultramarines, it's actually has nothing to do with the combined number of their successors nor has it anything to do with Matt Ward, but to do with who is in charge and how it breaches the spirit of the codex.

The issue is more with the status that the Ultramarines hold; by comparison the Imperial Fists as a First Founding chapter will certainly have greater respect and latitude but they don't hold any greater authority over their successors. By the same token with the Blood Angel comparison; Dante DID call the successors together to obtain fresh gene-seed and manpower, but was only able to rebuild his chapter after he stopped making demands and instead phrased it as a respectful request. Showing how interactions between chapters "should" (strong emphasis) be done in practice.

There are numerous examples of the Ultramarines issuing declarations and/or interceding on behalf of their successors in a manner that is more than just "fraternal concern" (such as telling the Mortifactors to give up Guilliman's knife or taking issue when the Minotaurs gets into conflict with one of their descendants) or are always taking command in whichever joint engagement they are involved in. (fair credit to Calgar though, he is a great and respected commander) or that even though they hold a democratic senate, the Ultramarines always hold the position of leadership.

The Genesis chapter by GWs design has no apparent purpose except as plot device to back-up their forefather, a role no chapter should have, as the codex intended chapters to be separate and independent.

The Ultramarine Honour Company (a contentious organisation in itself) is a prime example of this behaviour, in that even though it is made up of a combination of Ultramarine successors, it is considered "unusual" for a non-Ultramarine to lead it. But at least by the 13th Black Crusade a successor captain is appointed the leader, presumably because he's more competent. But you never hear of a successor chapter master holding leadership over the primogenitors as a whole.

Basically, what I'm getting at is that even if all the successors follow the Ultramarines via an established democratic consensus the spirit of the codex has been breached because putting a single individual in charge of all that power was what Guilliman is purported to have wished to avoid. If it is less formal that and they are only conceding to the Ultramarines as a "elder brothers" then we return to the skub issue of them being the "best marines evar!" --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 07:50, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

This may be because the Ultramarines, unlike the Imperial fists, and to a lesser extent the Blood Angels, divided the Legion into chapters, they were fairly uniform instead of being relatively distinct(like the IFs). So like the DA, the Primogenitor has greater control over its descendants due to old relationships from Legion-era CoCs surviving intact and not because of intentional rape of the Codex Astartes spirit. Pilgrim of Terra (talk)

Word Bearers Numbers[edit]

Book 2 - Massacre puts their war disposition four decades prior to the Heresy as 100,000 at the razing of Monarchia. Their numbers were believed to be considerably higher than that, approximating 140,000 but suggesting their numbers may have rivalled the Ultramarines (250,000).

If we ignore Book 2 for the moment. Book 5 - Tempest actually gives us several numbers to work with: Bearing in mind Calth happened one year after the fighting at Isstvan. Tempest also shows that the Shadow Crusade of Lorgar and Angron started almost immediately after Isstvan, with the two of them burning a "bloody trail across the eastern segmentum" just to get to Calth. Between the two Legions, Tempest says they had approximately three hundred thousand Legionairies, which is consistent with all prior dispositions of both legions at about 150,000 each. If the Word Bearers numbers are wrong then the World Eaters need revised upwards to redress this. When Lorgar got to Calth, after all the fighting in between, Tempest also says he split his armada into half a dozen fleets, keeping the largest portion of the fleet to himself (but with fewest ships of the line) and sending the main force of his fleet and 50,000 legionairies chosen from those least devoted to his cause or the most unstable, to Calth. Tempest also points out that Lorgar had little hope for Calth's success, corroborated by the Black Library books which say he chose not to be there because he wanted Guilliman alive and was executing a purge of his own legion in the process. Nearly all of the Word Bearers were destroyed in the battle as part of of the sacrifice of the Veridia star.
If the Word Bearers were only 100,000 from the outset of the Heresy then it would certainly have been less by the time he actually reached Calth; would have had fewer true believers in the Legion than than genuine followers of Chaos; and would show that Lorgar would be willing to expend more than half of his forces on a battle he never intended to win. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 09:44, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
Also: Tempest page 79 "The numeric strength of the Ultramarines Legion would not be surpassed, though in secrecy the late expansion of the Word Bearers would come to rival them by some assessments, while wilder claims as to the strength of the Alpha Legion also have them run closer than official records indicate." Agreeing with everything stated in Massacre p143. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 10:13, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

The absolute truth about the II Legion[edit]

There is no need to explain why all information about the second Legion and its Primarch was removed from all sources. Third Primarch.jpeg The Great Revolution of 1917

Malevolence Numbers[edit]

Blood Angels were said to have 300 companies of 500 Astartes, or some 150 000 Astartes, by the final years of the Great Crusade, making them one of the largest Legions.

White Scars are stated to have reached a peak of around 95 000 Astartes circa 007.M31.

I'm updating their Legion numbers accordingly.