Talk:Games Workshop

From 1d4chan

Games Workshop was never good. - Ahri 21:53, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

No, but Games Developer's Independant Workshop was.

Except for being acronymfags 75.173.87.67 17:19, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Dark Eldars got a codex and new shit -Frank

TO WHOEVER WROTE THAT FAMILY GUY SHIT: GO DIE IN A FIRE.

VASSAL Game Engine has a really nice 40k mod. Vassal doesn't host it anymore due to a take down, but its still pretty easy to find.

Crons got update. Epic update. Even Matt Ward is capable of writing a good thing once (under constant supervision of two capable writers, of course). Still point stands, Resin is fucking overpriced. 80.187.96.53 00:38, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

I gave up around the time of the fucking screwtops, so I don't really know much past third ed. Someone want to pick up the torch? Tim 18:16, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Elegan/tg/entlemen, I have a plan that might work, but it could also back fire terribly. Either way it might draw interest in 40k from the general public. I'll wait for a few days and if anyone is interest start something on my talk page.Voidsman 19:43, 4 July 2012 (BST)

Is deleting 10000characters really the best way forward??
depending on which 10,000, probably.Voidsman (talk) 19:25, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Games Workshop's game plan[edit]

While it is good that Games Workshop have progressed the storyline, this could be a case of Games Workshop trying to practice 'Torch the Franchise and Run'. Could this be case?

Probably not. 40k is their biggest money maker at this point, and you'd think they would learn not to do that with AoS.

Fluff[edit]

When it comes to GW's writers, who's better at writing fluff; Phil Kelly or Jeremy Vetock?

lawyers[edit]

Claiming they own SPACE MAHREENS? That's nothing. I had one of their legal goons claiming they own MARINES. As in, the word. Their entire legal notice was full of lulzworthy fail like this, so it got taken apart, discredited to pieces and the remains sent back with a note telling them to stop wasting their time. :V --109.243.13.130 17:11, 26 March 2013 (UTC)


big-ticket items from GDW[edit]

Oh God, can we stop with the half-assed O-level business interpretations? Please? Yes, their prices are ridiculous. But must we go so far in justifying that hatred with business analysis that is flawed at best?

Um... has anyone else seen this yet? --Orion Nexus (talk) 03:21, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440270a&prodId=prod2160196a

Jesus Christ. "Price: $14,140.00 " --NotBrandX (talk) 05:37, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
I wonder who that's for? I imagine if I had the money making my own chapter might be nice, but why lock yourself in like that? Is there some group of super wealthy 40k players out there that we don't know about?Voidsman (talk) 16:38, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
At this level it's easier to play 40k using real people for minis.--Boss Ballkrusha (talk) 20:35, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

When they used to be good[edit]

Remember when the GW website had interesting rules and scenarios, such as the whole winter war campaign section? I was just flipping through their old archives and found this gem:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/blogPost.jsp?aId=16100001a

Nowadays Gw would actually print this, im afraid...

An analisis of /tg/ points of view on GW (from a loyalist's perspective)[edit]

Interestingly some of the points at the main article may be argued, as anyone with enough knowledge of how share holders companies actually work (and obviously most people at 4chan dont qualify), the only reason why large companies exist to begin with is because they actually have share holders as they, well, bring the money, before you say it is the sales what bring the money let us explain this point, any project needs money to begin with and no matter how large a company can be, there is always need for someone to give a solid economic foundation, this is what share holders are for, they bring the money and hence they have what most people at 4chan dont have, a voice, a vote which actually counts. Not letting them have a voice is basically the quickest way to make them take their money and leave the enterprise, which results in disaster.

Now you may say, that's ok because either way they are burying GW to the ground, however, that may not be the case, while they may make general choices which would sound awful for your regular fan, they are not stupid, they make choices because they want to make a profit, which is the whole point of being a share holder, they actually want GW to succeed as this means more money for them, while they may not be the most sympathetic people they actually have a far larger motivation to make things work than the fans themselves, as at difference of your average elegan/tg/entleman they will not just lose a hobby but their money and source of living, switching to idealists is not the solution as examples such as those from Duke Nukem Forever show there need to be deadlines, accountants and executives to keep things running.

Which comes to the next point, how many people in the creative field do have experience in managing a company? Examples such as the above mentioned Duke Nukem and games like Command and Conquer show people with a great ideas about gaming and settings are not necessarily the brightest when it comes to sales or management, that's why most companies have salesmen and marketing departments, to actually convince people to buy the products, sure, you got the fluff and the fans, but would anyone really know how to sell the hobby? Would any person read a 200 pages or even a 25 pages short story and get into the game? Of course not, it's all too complicated, we need someone to actually bring the message and we need to know how to target the audiences.

And on that sense having more publicity is correct, however this is a double-edged sword, as it means soaking up resources, in the past it has been shown companies such as Electronic Arts have spent 3 times more in publicity and advertisement than in development, would you like to see something similar happening to GW? Or even more to the point, would you like the franchise, which in the end has been always been part of a niche-market appear in the public spot? What do you think the morality guardians will say when they find out about Slaanesh, or the Daemonculaba, or the Dark Eldar, or the explicit sexual scenes in some of Black Library novels, or, well, all the amount of violence both Warhammer and 40k have? Do we really need to catch their heavy handed and dour attention? At best we may just have to weather a public storm, at worst we may end getting a watered Blizzard's Warcraft-ish version of the game, do you really want that to happen?

It has been criticized the 40k setting has only white people, is that really truth? What does some people define for white people? Nazis didn't consider russians even human, which would actually make the Valhallans and Vostroyans a minority if we are going to go to bring an extremist perspective about the definition of race, while in the real world some latinos actually consider themselves white, or at least that's how they are considered in their countries of origin by other ethnic groups, then you may pick your average catachan regiment, which contain latinos and brown-skinned men. Similarly the White Scars and the Attilan Rough Raider are mongolian non-white people, then you get in the novels a wide array of ethnicities, from the viridian dragons to Prospero's population prior bombardment, Rynn's world to Tallarn, also race doesn't seem to be a problem when it comes to achieving high echelons in the Imperium, we have had our share of dark-skinned inquisitorial agents, in fact, for a setting so accused of racism anyone who look past the official painted miniatures may discover there is enough of racial variety in the Imperium to wave off most accussation on that matter.

And here is another interesting point, for a lot of people Eldar, as elves, are the epitome of white supremacy, no, seriously, most elves, particularly those based in LoTR, are considered worldwide the next step in what a white person may look like, including the whole theme of fall from grace in the wake of a younger rising race and the recurrent decadent theme, while some white readers may get impressed and even outraged most people from other ethnicities may find this self-evident (unless wanting to rise some spirit of contradiction), yet GW seems to use the eldar as the punching bag for when they need someone other than the Sisters of Battle to get slaughtered.

But do Sisters of Battle and Eldar are truly the punching bag of GW? While their win/lose ratio is not quite good it's important to remember neither of them have been short of remarkable victories, perhaps a focus in their respective stories and their battles may help change that image, however there is always the challenge of bringing them into a positive light, or at least as triumphant factions.

Ineed for the Eldar there is the whole problem that they are race on the brink of extinction and to bother well, alien, writing a novel from the Eldar point of view is quite difficult as they have a whole different perspective than humans, they are aliens after all, similarly this makes them far more difficult to sympathize with, for that to happen they have to be humanized, which brings down the whole point of being alien. In the end there needs to be a balance akin to what we find with the Imperium, they are just another faction trying to survive the whole mess of the 41st millenium, while some of their defeats have been quite sad, they have had shining moments and with the new stories and codices they may get some remarkable victories.

The Sisters of Battle have a problem akin to the eldar when it comes to win/defeat ratios, aggravated with their portrayal of heavy-handed fanatics (even by the standards of the Imperium) there is not really much people, aside from SoB players, who will feel sorry about them getting killed. After all, and smoothly pointed in one of Ciaphas Cain's book, the Adepta Sororitas forget their main point is to defend mankind, and killing enemies is a mean to an end. While some interesting exceptions are found both in Black Library novels and the codices they are exactly that, exceptions, the average portrayal of a Sister is one of a death-seeking fanatic ready to shoot anyone who presents any hint of doubt and seems to be only interested in killing those who do not hold to their point of view. On that sense there is no wonder they haven't been given really much attention by GW, after all, would a player choice them over the more humane Imperial Guard? Or the self-sacrificing Space Marines? Aside from flavor and design there is not really much to make them attractive to the Imperium's fans, and while both points are central to any faction they seem to actually be what makes them so restrictive and hence an easy pick to get slaughtered.

We may argue that making them more humane may be the trick, after all it worked with the Newcrons, somehow, giving them more charisma as actual defenders of the peoples of the Imperium (and here people is the key word, not Imperium) rallying to protect them along with a more noble-bright look may do the trick, or maybe not, after all their fanbase was attracted in first instance for the portrayal of medieval catholic fanatics, as this is mere speculation just boosting them with more options and some new powers may help too, then again, the Newcrons come to mind. Shield of Baal brings us an excellent example in the form of Canoness Grace, whose forces were originally dispatched to rout out divergent doctrines from Lysios, when the tyranids came to the world she put aside the religious persecutions and instead convinced the whole population of the planet to fight back the aliens, she was making a point of showing the main reason of the Imperium's very existence is to defend mankind, and by putting herself and her sisters in the frontline to defend the citizens of the world she was doing far better evangelism than with public executions and polgroms.

More to come (work and grammar check in progress)

Analysis Rebuttal[edit]

You make several good points, though there are holes in your arguments and they do raise some questions.

  • "Interestingly some of the points here may be argued, as anyone with enough knowledge of how share holders companies actually work (and obviously most people at 4chan don’t qualify), the only reason why large companies exist to begin with is because they actually have share holders because, well, they actually bring the money, before you say it is the sales are what bring the money let us explain this point, any project needs money to begin with and no matter how large a company can be, there is always need for someone to give a solid economic foundation, this is what share holders are for, they bring the money and hence they have what most people at 4chan don’t have, a voice a vote which actually counts. Not letting them have a voice is basically the quickest way to make them take their money and leave the enterprise, which results in disaster."

The problem is that Games Workshop is appeasing their shareholders at the expense of their customers’ desires. Without their customers, they cannot thrive as a business, so the wants of the customer should be addressed as well.

  • "Now you may say, that's ok because either way they are burying GW to the ground, however, that may not be the case, while they may make general choices which would sound awful for anyone, they are not stupid, they make choices because they want to make a profit, which is the whole point of being a share holder, they actually want GW to succeed as this mean more money for them, while they may not be the most sympathetic people they actually have a far larger motivation to make things work, as at difference of your average elegan/tg/entleman they will not lose a hobby but their money and source of living, switching to idealists is not the solution as example such as those of Duke Nukem Forever show there need to be deadlines, accountants and executives to keep things running."

A valid point in some ways. Their lack of sympathy is hurting their profits as they alienate parts of their fanbase; mainly 40K’s non-Imperium players (Tyranid players come to mind), casual gamers and their fanbase from the days of Rogue Trader. Trying to make the hobby more mainstream means they will have to strip much of its more unique/controversial elements that make it stand out, which could reduce their playerbase through alienating current fans and discouraging new fans with lack of appeal. Combined with their arguably unreasonable high prices, this will make them lose profit in the long run.

  • "Which comes to the next point, how many people in the creative field do have experience in managing a company, examples such as the above mentioned Duke Nukem and games like Command and Conquer show people with a great idea about gaming and settings are not necessarily the brightest when it comes to sales, that's why most companies have salesmen and marketing departments, to actually convince people to buy the products, sure, you got the fluff and the fans, but would anyone really know how to sell the hobby? Would any person read a 200 pages or even a 25 pages short story and get into the game? Of course not, it's all too complicated, we need someone to actually bring the message and we need to know how to target the audiences."

In that case Games Workshop should let the creative people take care of the creative side and the business-savvy take care of sales and customer relations; not let the salespeople dictate the lore and gameplay.

  • "And on that sense having more publicity is correct, however this is a double-edged sword, as it means soaking up resources, in the past it has been show companies such as Electronic Arts have spent 3 times more in publicity than in development, would you like to see something similar happening to GW? Or even more to the point, would you like the franchise, which in the end has been always been part of a niche-market appear in the public spot? What do you think the morality guardians will say when they find out about Slaanesh, or the Daemonculaba, or the Dark Eldar, or the explicit sexual scenes in some of Black Library novels, or, well, all the amount of violence both Warhammer and 40k have? Do we really need to catch their heavy handed and dour attention? At best we may just have to weather a public storm, at worst we may end getting a weather Blizzard's Warcraft-ish version of the game, do you really want that to happen?"

This is true, and a mistake Games Workshop is making; for example, retconning out Malekith and Morathi’s incestuous relationship. Doing this then allowing the Slaaneshi champion Sigvald to still be inbred doesn’t make sense. A theory is that since one business plan is to have parents buy the models for sons or daughters who play the game they think mother-son incest would offend parents more than brother-sister incest. However incest is incest, a repellent and taboo subject regardless of the relatives involved.

  • "Now it has been criticized the 40k setting has only white people, is that really truth? What does some persons define for white people? Nazis didn't consider Russians even human, which actually make the Valhallans and Vostroyans actually a minority, while in the real world some Latinos actually consider themselves white, or at least that's how they are considered in their countries of origin by other ethnic groups, then you may pick your average regiment, which contain Latinos and brown-skinned men. Similarly the White Scars and the Attilan Rough Raider are Mongolian non-white people, then you get in the novels a wide array of ethnicities, from the viridian dragons to Prospero's population prior bombardment, Rynn's world to Tallarn, also race doesn't seem to be a problem when it comes to achieving high echelons in the Imperium, we have had our share of dark-skinned inquisitorial agents, in fact, for a setting so accused of racism anyone who look past the official painted miniatures may discover there is enough of racial variety in the Imperium to wave off most accusation on that matter."

The problem lies in Games Workshop’s art of humans and their depiction of models. While there is plenty of variations in hair and eye color, there are almost no variations (only 1 in 100) in skin color on humans in their art or the display models, when in real-life humans with non-Caucasian skin tones make up the majority of the world’s population.

  • "And here is another interesting point, for a lot of people Eldar, as elves, are the epitome of white supremacy, no, seriously, most elves, particularly those based in LoTR, are considered worldwide the next step in what a white person may look like, including the whole theme of fall from grace in the wake of a younger rising race and the whole corruption theme, while some white readers may get impressed and even outraged most people from other ethnicities may actually find this self-evident (unless wanting to rise some spirit of contradiction), yet it seems GW seems to use the eldar as the punching bag for when they need someone other than the Sisters of Battle to get slaughtered."

This is debatable. Provide evidence to support this view of elves being a statement of white supremacy; there are several examples of elves in fiction with non-Caucasian, and even non-human, skin colors (such as the Elder Scrolls games).

  • "But do Sisters of Battle and Eldar are truly the punching bag of GW? It seems that this actually has more with the victory/defeat ratios, for the Eldar there is the whole problem that they are race on the brink of extinction and to bother well, alien, writing a novel from the Eldar point of view is quite difficult as they have a whole different perspective than humans, they are aliens after all, similarly this makes them far more difficult to sympathize with, for that to happen they have to be humanized, which brings down the whole point of being alien."

This is true and indicative of a lack of skill from Games Workshop’s writers. It is possible to do stories from an alien perspective (look up ‘Xenofiction’) while keeping the characters believable and sympathetic. For reasons unknown, anthropocentricism is increasing in popularity among both the creators and consumers of fiction in society.

  • "The Sisters similarly lack the elements to make them feel sympathetic, with their portrayal of heavy-handed fanatics (even by the standard of the Imperium) there is not really much people, aside from SoB players, who will feel sorry for them, and with reason, consider they are made from the same bunch than commissairs and the Schola Progenium, Cain and Gaunt aside, don't see to bothered in making sympathetic characters. While some interesting exceptions are found both in Black Library novels and the codices they are exactly that, exceptions, the average portrayal of a sister is one of a death-seeking fanatic ready to shoot anyone who present any hint of doubt. On that sense there is no wonder they haven't been given really much attention by GW, after all, would a player choice them over any other of the Imperium's forces? Aside from flavor and design there is not really much to make them attractive to the Imperium's fans, and while both points are central to any faction they seem to actually be what makes them so restrictive and hence an easy pick to get slaughtered."

The problem is that not all Sisters are death seeking fanatics. They’re militant nuns and the female counterpart to Space Marines, minus the genetic engineering and with acts of faith instead of psykers. Games Workshop’s neglect of this all-female faction and showing blatant favoritism to their all-male Spaces Marines raises unfortunate implications and is why they’re viewed as being reduced to punching bag by fans.

  • "We may argue that making them more humane may be the trick, after all it worked with the Newcrons, somehow, giving them more charisma as actual defenders of the peoples of the Imperium (and here people is the key word, not Imperium) rallying to protect them along with a more noble-bright look may do the trick, or maybe not, after all their fanbase was attracted in first instance for the portrayal of medieval catholic fanatics, as this is mere speculation just boosting them with more options and some new powers may help too, then again, the Newcrons come to mind."

This is a flawed point. Necrons and the Imperium are separate species and factions with enmity towards each other; the Imperium are the futuristic humans with traits of medieval religious zealots while the Necrons were originally an army of near-mindless, alien kill-bots serving cosmic entities whose nature was somewhere between Marvel’s Galactus and Lovecraft’s Great Old Ones. The most disliked changes were the retconning of the C’tan’s role in the Necrons history and the loss of pariahs, though it was good to give the army some character.

Here's hoping that the people that write some of the stuff above do realise that whilst streetspeak etc may be cool in something like this, don't use in at school etc - experience of seeing things in the world of work does not always support that people do know the difference and adapt language to context.


Wow I actually did forget about this, but let's see what we can do...

  • Yes, I do agree with you a company can only survive if their customers require enough of their good and services to make them profitable, however, who their customers, and what's more important, those customers who really count is what does really matter, so far as we have seen GW has always enough people buying at them, at least in their 40k brand to be profitable, what happened with WFB may be an indication that they had lost too many customers, but why? Now I am making assumptions, and yes, you have a point to point at it, but according to them most people just buy their models because they like the models, this may make a lot of people mad and angry, but it may be true in the sense that most people can't always play the game, but just to actually play it you will most likely need some minis, so, you have to buy and assemble them, unless you want to use cardboard constructs or something like that, and since they are not spending in GW products, well, it's quite academic.
  • Perhaps, perhaps not, it's just how they handle the mainstreaming process what matters, look at Star Wars, there are some things which are mainstream but you also get a lot of complexity past the films, you need to make things accessible but you can still keep the complex stuff, on that sense AoS has the potential to grow a lot and the setting seems to be far more flexible than the old WFB world.
  • I think they do to a reasonable point, I mean, check at the stuff their staff make, while they may not always make likeable things (I am looking at the Taurox model) they still seem to have so much skill and creativity that you may fall in love with at least 50 percent of what they do (if some of the comments at the wiki are any indication, but then again, quoting ourselves sounds biased) for a franchise to achieve such a thing it's quite an accomplishment.
  • Well, I am not a fan of incest but I have seen enough stuff in certain asian media to know it has some fans, for that matter, there are ways to deal with topics about sexuality, it depends how they portray it, but then again, we don't really have to go far to make things interesting, although it's actually good to see people dealing with many of these topics, for example the bible, just to point at a popular west literary source, has sexual scenes, incest, torture, mutilation, horror and some stuff which may be rate +18 in any country, series such as Harry Potter don't go that far but they still deal with serious topics and even Tolkien could implicitly add rape attempts, extreme violence and genocide in their literary work.
  • Well, I still have to see a fan of GW works of african ethnicity, I myself am not european or even white yet I don't feel bad about a brand which break with the one-third-of-our-pics-must-show-some-sort-of-minority, and I don't need every franchise to have this political correctness to feel good with myself, I don't need your compassion.
  • First off I am latino, and I live in a south-american country (that may explain why my english isn't as sound), not Argentina by the way so I am not "the whitest", I really don't want to go through the whole work of recording people talking about the elf matter and then adding some subs so you may understand what we are talking about, but trust me, we have this perception on white people, we talk about it from time to time and find it quite amusing. In practice this really means little to us in the sense it's just a fact of life such as war, public violence and death, on the other hand, most of us just prefer to smile and be polite with the mighty whitey because they mean a source of income for us, you don't mistreat your tourists and investors, and however tough the deal may be for our part, most of us we still gladly accept it over "anti-colonial" alternatives or 90 tons of pure democracy, we like your dollars and your condescending appreciation, we will take the most advantage of whatever is available to us to get ourselves better conditions, even if we have to do some dirty jobs for the "elves", and I may actually point out that dark skinned elves are quite a recent creation, and they are not that popular in the media we get to break that perceptions, everyone here knows what an elf looks like but not everyone knows how a drow may look like.
  • It's easier I guess, I mean, I do like necrons, I loved the novel Devourer because it was mostly narrated from the point of view of the necrons, but then again, it's easier for people (both writers and readers) to get in touch with the humans.
  • Perhaps, perhaps not, at this point I suspect it's more about what do the designers like to work with than anything else.
  • I still think they may make a more sympathetic job with the sisters, perhaps the "knight in shining armour" deal? I quite like Faith and Fire as the sisters actually disliked some of the rituals officially sanctioned by the Ecclesiarchy, but then again, we really don't know we can go without losing the obligatory moral dissonance.

Hope you find my points interesting, if not a bit salty. --McNash (talk) 09:15, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Stock Markets, Codex releases and external factors[edit]

By the way guys, here is the link of the codex releases from the last years:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codex

Compare them with GW stock exchange:

http://www.londonstockexchange.com/exchange/prices-and-markets/stocks/summary/company-summary/GB0003718474GBGBXSSMM.html?lang=en

While we may still need a list of past release dates from FW and WHFB/AoS I believe it's cleat both the releases of Astra Militarum, Space Wolves and Orks and 7th edition as well as the End Times and the Age of Sigmar have allowed GW to recover a lot of what they lost after the supposed 'nids meganerf, which may not have such an actual impact, instead it seems the crash was generalized as CNN shows on these news:

http://money.cnn.com/2014/01/31/investing/stocks-markets/

There is even a sort of trait where the upcoming release of a new Codex brings up share. --McNash (talk) 23:38, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

What needs to be said[edit]

Games Workshop has been taken over by EA.

EA knows how to turn a profit.--Asorel (talk) 03:11, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Time For A Rewrite[edit]

With these interviews (here and here) there's enough fodder for a much better explanation of GW history. --Thannak (talk) 19:14, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

An interesting read, but I'm not sure how it detracts from the commonly-held view for the company's fall: Sales had too much control over Creative, the company pretended it wasn't a games company, and it's all Kirby's fault.--The Forgefather (talk)

[edit]

Should the real logo go at the top and the joke logo be put in later? Because the usual thing on pages is legit company logos at the top. --Thannak (talk) 19:06, 2 March 2016 (UTC)


Time For A Rewrite IE JUST DELETE IT ALL AND DO IT AGAIN[edit]

Yeah that's basically it, I mean what I said above this shit is a cluster fuck.

No. --Thannak (talk) 05:48, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
Why not clearly this has reached the point where half the shit on this page isn't good for anything. I can't make heads or tails of most of it, if we don't delete this and start over entirely at we,you or whoever the fuck wants/can can revamp this shit because it's easily the most confusing page on 1d4chan.
If you think the page needs to be re-written, re-write it yourself, instead of pointing a finger on someone else to do it. If you don't like something, then do the hard work yourself. --The Awkward Man
I agree with awkward man here, if you think it needs a rewrite, get working, but you'll need a masterwork if you think it's going to stay up for more than five minutes. On another note, but perhaps more importantly, follow discussion rules when adding to talk pages. Discussions should be signed (done by hitting the tilde key (~) four times) and as far as layout goes, increasing numbers of colons are used to indicate the end of one user's words. --Josman (talk) 03:25, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Sueing[edit]

"Laughably, Games Workshop are extremely protective about their precious intellectual properties." I read that TSR also sued many times. They also had big business problems, which destroyed them. TSR was even translated sometimes as "They Sue Regularly". Notice the similarity.

Why not just edit and add a new section?[edit]

Simply, keep a large part from the page and just add a new parte talking about the 2016 onwards changes. We all knoe that this year and a half has been an stupidly great year, so why not? --CMLR (talk) 07:57, 26 March 2017‎

I am of this mindset as well. I think that this page deserves something of a makeover. Don't remove anything, but put some new skin grafts on it and staple the most gaping of wounds closed. Maybe we should have time-stamped headings for /tg/ analysis, especially all of the doom and gloom stuff. Perhaps a timeline of varying /tg/ opinion, in wikitable form? --FlintTD (talk) 20:18, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

This is the worst fucking page on all of 1d4chan. We need to trash it and start over - Everybody who reads this page - NathanielPrime

Horus Heresy isn't dead or in a coma since Bligh's death.[edit]

Did Bligh's death mess up Forge World's plans for the Horus Heresy? Yes, is it dead or in a coma? No. Games Workshop still sells the legion Marines on their website (with an exception being the Mark II, which I've never seen anyone use) and all of the old guns/weapons can still be gotten, either on Forgeworld's website or in the legion boxes. Today they even teased a shot of the new book and they've been releasing new models in the meantime so pretending as if we're not getting anything is just stupid. -- Triacom (talk) 20:01, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

Pretending it's something akin to what we get when Bligh had a full team is even more stupid. Pretending three fucking people is enough to make rules for both 30 and 40k is moronic. There were exactly 5 models for Horus Heresy not ready in February that got released that year, Titan not included. Games Workshop fucked both starter boxes, intentionally screwing up any neophyte. Last post on Warhammer Community on Horus Heresy is dated April. Even LOTR gets more releases than Heresy. --95.28.167.165 20:31, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
I'm not pretending anything, pretending it's dead or in a coma is stupid. This year we got more HH models than Eldar models, I guess that means the Eldar are a dead faction, so are Tyranids, Dark Angels, Grey Knights, Inquisition, Assassins, etc. Yes there's been a slowdown in how much material is released but pretending 3 people are not enough to make rules for 30k is moronic since GW has made plenty of rulebooks in the past with 1-3 authors contributing to them (that we know of anyway), aka the majority of rulebooks that they've released, not to mention Bligh was practically the sole writer of the Auxilia's rules. "Games Workshop fucked both starter boxes, intentionally screwing up any neophyte-" Sure they did buddy, got any other conspiracy theories? Did Forgeworld's teaser of Malevolence prove that they're not making any other books? -- Triacom (talk) 04:59, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
I think I'll also address this: "Screw it. Go buy some legion upgrades." Sure thing, I typed "Legion Upgrades" into Forgeworld's search bar and it came up with Legion upgrades for everyone except the White Scars, who never had their own unique units. Obviously that means they've squatted the entire range right? -- Triacom (talk) 05:07, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
Scratch that, Forge World actually has the White Scars upgrades as well, I just missed them. That makes all 18 Legions that they still have the parts for, they've definitely gutted the Horus Heresy range haven't they? As far as I know the Mk II armour and the Magos Dominus are the only things they've cut (I'm not including things like the Heavy Squads, which are literally regular squads in a slightly different pose that you can still make by running hot water over the resin models/heating up the plastic ones), while you can still get both a Magos Dominus and the regular Infantry Squads from different models (you can have any AdMech HQ/Myrmidon as the Dominus, while you just get Mk III/Mk IIV for the infantry). -- Triacom (talk) 07:58, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
You're trolling me, right? No fucking way you can be that narrow-minded. When talking "upgrades", I'm not talking about shoulder pads. You have transfer sheets for that (that weren't squatted anyways), unlike torsoes and heads. You're also comparing entire game system to a single faction both in model count and in numbers of authors working and hilariously can't see why this is wrong. Rejecting the fact starter boxes were squatted is also a bad argument because they obviously were. The game system without a starter is a bad thing. Malevolence initially was going to be released year ago. Is it normal situation in your head for Codex to be delayed for a year? Solar Auxilia was written by Skomorovsky, not Bligh. Go and read about the models they squatted, you'd be surprised how incomplete your list is, don't foget to compare release shedules before and after Bligh's death, then forget it happily and pretend all is well with HH. --95.28.167.165 11:59, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
You're the one making the claims, the burden of proof is yours. Go ahead, show us this big list of squatted models. --Newerfag (talk) 14:50, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
Unlike torsos and heads huh? Alright, tell me how many legions lost their torsos and heads, because unlike you, I've been to their website before and can tell when somebody's full of shit. Oh you're not going to do it? Well then let me answer it for you, here's all the legion parts you can't get or easily recreate: Death Guard Torsos, White Scars Torsos, Iron Warriors Torsos, the end. Such a long list! If you want heads, buy heads! They never squatted those. All the other legions can be recreated either by getting their legion specific units and using normal legion heads/shoulderpads, or keeping them as-is with different equipment, which has always looked much better than the basic upgrades.
Wrong. For example, where are my Ultramarine's heads (Invictarii) and torsoes (both Invictarii and Pratorian). How am I supposed to make Locutarus Storm squad? If you put your shit together and actually looked at the FW site, you'd find the only ones with torsoes are Imperial Fists, Thousand Sons and Alpha Legion. Therefore this argument is invalid. --95.28.167.165 16:45, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
Last I checked, Locutarus Storm Squads were just Assault Marines with more pistols and Praetors don't have anything different about them save for the more extravagant armor that any Artificer Armor model can fill in for. You don't need a fancy pants conversion kit for everything when all you need is green stuff and creativity. --Newerfag (talk) 17:55, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
I disagree, that's exactly why FW is making Praetor kits for every legion. Most of unique units from various legions are just standard ones from Age of Darkness lists "with more extravagant armor". There are few exceptions here and there, like Gal Vorbak, but point stands. Following this logic all unique Contemptors should be dumped. --95.28.167.165 18:44, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
Newerfag's right, they are just assault squads with power weapons, so grab an assault squad, grab the power weapons and you're set, that's how you make them. They don't suddenly cease to be that unit just because the optional cosmetics aren't sold (and even then you can still use their other unique units with assault marine parts). "Most of unique units from various legions are just standard ones from Age of Darkness lists "with more extravagant armor"." And so were the legion upgrades, which were usually watered-down versions of the unique armour, which is why it always looked better to use the unique armour when you could instead of the legion upgrades. You also want to know why unique Contemptor's aren't getting dumped yet? It's because they still sell well enough to justify making more of them, because they're a business and they want to make money. This is why your comments about Betrayal at Calth's sales have always been retarded, so long as something keeps selling, they keep making it, plain and simple. -- Triacom (talk) 03:38, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
And besides, the only "unique" Contemptors are the Contemptor-Osiron, the Mhara Gal, and the Custodes Contemptors. And as Triacom said, the only reason they still make Praetor kits is because idiots like you keep lapping them up instead of just kitbashing normal models. --Newerfag (talk) 04:40, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
Nice logic, Newerfag. Following it there is no need for Chaos models in 40k - just glue some greenstuff spikes on Imperial ones. FW should throw that new BA dreadnoughts out of the window. No need for various marks either - use greenstuff. Hell, no need for models even, you can make all what you will from greenstuff! Do I really need to explain why this is ridiculous? --95.28.167.165 13:22, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
No, because the Locutarus Storm Squads were never going to get models because of how they're literally assault squads with better wargear and complaining about something you could have easily fixed yourself in the time you spent ranting about it is what's really ridiculous. --Newerfag (talk) 17:05, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
I think you should explain why it's ridiculous and you know why? Because Chaos Space Marines are an entirely different faction with different looks and different weapons, unlike Horus Heresy models which lorewise have almost always used extremely similar armour with different paint schemes (same with dreadnoughts) until Forge World decided to change that with their legion upgrade packs. You also missed the lesson behind what Newerfag said, which was that there's no difference between any normal legion Contemptor Dreadnoughts aside from cosmetics, CSM's on the other hand have a lot of differences between themselves and their loyalist counterparts. It's the difference between "Here's a different version of the exact same thing." And "This model counts as X." -- Triacom (talk) 19:45, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
They had an upgrade pack to make them stand out from normal Assault Marines. If you're so fond of every army looking the same bar colours - ok, the discussion is over. Half of CSM codex are literally the same things as Loyalists get because CSM are just SM turned traitors. --95.28.167.165 19:52, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
You're really floundering now, the upgrade pack was cosmetic, the Space Marine/Chaos Space Marine kits aren't since those come with different wargear. However if you really wanted to make CSM's out of Space Marine components via kitbashing, nobody's stopping you and I know a GW employee who'd highly encourage you to do so. -- Triacom (talk) 03:55, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
"You're also comparing entire game system to a single faction both in model count and in numbers of authors working and hilariously can't see why this is wrong." Both groups have authors split between multiple systems and I don't know if you've noticed this yet, but 30k and 40k have 27 and 28 factions respectively, but only if we include the Ynnari (one specific model and a keyword otherwise) the Renegade Knights (not even a unique model, it's a transfer sheet only) as their own factions, in which case I'm also including Talons of the Emperor as their own separate from the two that make it. If we were to remove Talons, Renegade Knights and Ynnari then the ranges have the same amount of factions, yet Forge World has far fewer people covering them and their most prolific writer died. I'd be stunned if they didn't experience a huge setback from that.
Technically right, but you're overlooking the fact FW HH team was reorganised after Bligh's death. FFS, there is only one guy from the old guard there, and he only came to HH at book 3! With all due respect, while Bligh was a true father of a system, he didn't do all the work alone, and his team didn't scattered to the wind all by themselves. It's not like he didn't have a deputy to carry on his work, like Hoare, who was also quite a lynchpin. By the way, he was tranfered in Specialist Games by GW, like many of his colleagues. --95.28.167.165 16:45, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
Oh, and by the way, I'm watching GW's stream right now, Specialist Games have 12 people total working on the rules of three game systems (Bloodbowl, Adeptus Titanicus, Necromunda). --95.28.167.165 17:01, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
So you know the team was re-organized, so why are you acting as if there shouldn't be delays? There are so many reasons for why the transfers could've happened (ranging from not wanting to work on that system without a good friend/team member, to wanting to work on the other games more) that it's pointless to speculate on them until we know more. -- Triacom (talk) 03:38, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
There are delays as of GW's "we fucked up and that big FAQ is coming two month later" and such as FW's "we fucked up for more than year". The difference is quite obvious, as are the reasons for it. --95.28.167.165 13:22, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
"The difference is quite obvious, as are the reasons for it." Only for the paranoid and the obsessive.--Newerfag (talk) 17:05, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
Because apparently you think only those can put two and two together. Fine. --95.28.167.165 19:52, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
So having a one of their lead writers dying is Forge World fucking up? Or are you really assuming you know the real reason for the shake-up that followed after his death? -- Triacom (talk) 19:45, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
The real reason for Horus Heresy ending where it's now? Written below. It's not a big secret either, no corporate secrets there. --95.28.167.165 19:52, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
It's ending? You should tell Forge World, they keep putting out teasers and making new 30k models to sell, almost as if it isn't ending. I think you also forgot to write why it's ending. -- Triacom (talk) 03:55, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
"Rejecting the fact starter boxes were squatted is also a bad argument because they obviously were. The game system without a starter is a bad thing." Yes, I seem to remember the starter sets going away, it's almost like they started doing away with them when GW started producing the infantry sets in plastic on their main website or something, weird that they'd stop them when the vast majority of what's in them suddenly changed... Oh wait they brought starter sets back you moron. It's actually a pretty good deal too, there's a nice discount in getting the starter set over everything individually. Also if you're really mad about starter sets going away, you must be pissed at GW because always discontinue starter sets after a while and when they're no longer selling as much.
Dude, I don't want to make you look like a shithead, but your hyperlink isn't working, and, once again, if you check the site, all of starter sets with Calth have "ERROR 404 - ALL RECORDS EXPUNGED FROM LIBRARY". GW does not discontinue starter sets for systems without making and adequate replacement, we're not talking about boxes like Renegade and the like. --95.28.167.165 16:45, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
They weren't even intended as starter boxes for HH, have you forgotten they used entirely different rule systems and acted as self-contained games? If they were starter sets for anything, it was for mainline 40K since it was their test run for making plastic Mk4 Marines, Contemptors, and so on. Anyway, seems Triacom broke the link, the real one is here: [1] --Newerfag (talk) 17:55, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
Oh, okay, I saw those, but they aren't that impressive compared to both BaC and BoP in money and in model count. They are really more like GW's Start Collecting, but worse. --95.28.167.165 18:44, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
My mistake I had one more character there that usually separates the links from the text, and forgot external links work differently (as well as the wiki doesn't automatically detect a problem with it, you also made this exact same mistake slightly further down the page). In any case once again Newerfag's right, they weren't even 30k starter sets (least because they didn't even come with 30k's rules), unlike the starter set on Forge World's website which, according to you, doesn't have starter sets on it. Also when GW swaps sets they usually swap armies and having new armies as the new starter kit isn't exactly an adequate replacement, especially if you really don't care about either army that's being sold in them. I will say I like how you went from "they don't exist" to "well... they're not impressive." Pretty quick. They're also hardly worse than GW's start collecting since you do still get a discount on it and it comes with more models than most GW Start Collecting bundles. -- Triacom (talk) 03:38, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
Well, they kinda did come with the rules, remember Custodes rules in White Dwarf? For the rest of them - do you really think they were not doing to try and bait the buyer into purchasing 86$ book? Thing is, I don't say they were a true and proper starter, but rather from the models perspective (which is the most important) and their price. I also went from "they are not starters because they cost double compared to BaC and BoP with less models" to the same fucking position. --95.28.167.165 13:22, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
You are not the one who gets to define "starters" here, they are. Now you're just sounding sour because you can't pay for Forge World prices. --Newerfag (talk) 17:05, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
And you think your average person can? Are you running a drug cartel or something? --95.28.167.165 20:36, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
The average person player can, since they can easily go to ebay/the Chinese/the Russians. How I got my models is some Forge World direct orders (like Scoria) but otherwise mine second-hand purchases through ebay. Currently I've got one hell of a Mechanicus army (and one hell of a SA army) and if I stopped at a 2000 point army(s) it would've been cheaper than a 40k army. -- Triacom (talk) 03:55, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
"Well, they kinda did come with the rules, remember Custodes rules in White Dwarf?" Wow, you mean to tell me Burning of Prospero came with a free copy of White Dwarf? Oh wait it didn't, and the game didn't "kinda" come with the rules, it entirely came without them. If you need to buy the rules elsewhere, then that means they're not included. "I also went from "they are not starters because they cost double compared to BaC and BoP with less models" to the same fucking position. " No, you went from "They don't exist." To "They're not worth as much." How exactly aren't they real starters when it's literally everything you need for a small army? 2 HQ's, 2 Troops, one Heavy Support, you're good for your first lower points games. -- Triacom (talk) 19:45, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
Because the only thing you're getting for free from this box are Praetors. Someone above also made quite a point they are not needed and can be easily converted. It's not nearly as cost-effective as the old box, but hey - I quess you're all are pretty chill with HH being a hobby of a select few. I also don't remember my 6th edition Dark Vengeance coming with the rules either (though to be fair, it may be localisation's fault)--95.28.167.165 20:40, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
So you're getting them for free, that's a discount. Yes you can make them as well, but you're still getting them for free with this set. If you don't remember Dark Vengeance coming with rules then you got fucked on the box by somebody, not only did it have rules for everything in it, it gave you specific scenarios, one of which I remember because it could be played with only one person as a way to have people new to the game practice with the system. -- Triacom (talk) 03:55, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
"Malevolence initially was going to be released year ago. Is it normal situation in your head for Codex to be delayed for a year?" If one of the authors dies, yes. Also my mistake with SA, looks like you got me there. "you'd be surprised how incomplete your list is" I doubt it, seeing as how you thought legions lost their heads and yet every single legion still has theirs. I think you'd be pleasantly surprised by how much is actually there. gone. "don't foget to compare release shedules before and after Bligh's death" 'Foget'-ing to compare release schedules would be like forgetting how to spell 'forget', and I didn't do it. I've always said that it's slowed down so you can stop pretending as if I'm ignoring it. -- Triacom (talk) 18:06, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
Are we discussing grammar here? Pointing at such mistakes is not a valid argument. You may also notice I'm not a native speaker (by my IP, duh), so have patience, there is more to come. You somehow forget Mk4s dreadnoughts, most of their weapons, SA medics, Rapiers and tank crews, cataphractii shoulder pads (all of them), most tranfer sheets (only Ultramarines, WB, AL, SW, TS, BA and 2 Titan Legions have those now) and other things like Gorgons (the tank Militia uses). FW said all of it was to free space for new models - a year has passed, and nothing to justify such drastic means has shown up so far. There is a "slow down", and there is 5 new models a year made. By the way, how long ago has the Heresy FAQ arrived? It seems all the king's men of 1d4chan can't upgrade the Tactica with it in mind. Doesn't look like the old days at all. --95.28.167.165 16:45, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
I'm looking at the site now and I see way more transfer sheets than that. Rapiers of all types are also still present, so while some things may have been removed you're blowing this out of proportion. Besides, this should be in the FW page and not the GW page. --Newerfag (talk) 17:55, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
I stand corrected, I searched for "Legion tranfer sheet". Still, some of them are gone, like house Malinax and SA. The reason why it belongs to GW is given below. --95.28.167.165 18:44, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
I'm not discussing grammar, there's just some things we've both been forgetting and I was having some fun with it. "so have patience, there is more to come." Funny, Forge World said the same thing but it seems you're not taking your own advice. "You somehow forget Mk4s-" Not only are those still being sold, I already told you where you can find them. "SA medics-" You mean the ones only being sold alongside a named character that ended up having a short run time in the first place? I remember, I also remember that anyone who used the SA just got medics by combining a SA with the medic from the Guard Command Squad and saved a ton of money. "most of their weapons-" Hold up, which weapons are you talking about because there's still a ton of HH weapons available on the website, including all of the heavy weapons. I guarantee you that any you can't find on the website for some reason are instead in either the Mark III or Mark IV box. Forge World removing the Gorgon isn't a mark against Horus Heresy since that wasn't originally a Horus Heresy model. "By the way, how long ago has the Heresy FAQ arrived? It seems all the king's men of 1d4chan can't upgrade the Tactica with it in mind." I'll admit I'm unsure of what you mean by this, when the FAQ's came out there were some revisions to the pages however the pages always assume the reader has both the rules and FAQ's in front of them, they're not going to state what's in them word for word. -- Triacom (talk) 03:38, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
Mk4 DREADNOUGHTS. Gorgon, of course, is not a HH model but is the only suitable DT for IMaC (and don't start on Aurox with 10 models inside, even Grenadiers with Plasma won't fit). There is also that Militia was going to be unsupported from the beggining, true, and no one in FW really considers them a proper faction, true, but still, it leaves them pretty butchred. The part about FAQ is pretty self-explanatory - with releases slown to a crawl, new rulebook being mostly a joke with only minimal amount of mistakes from the 7th corrected, promises about time frames being constantly broken and the FAQ and errata itself not being nearly as extensive as it should be, too few really care about HH anymore. It's like a vicious circle. --95.28.167.165 13:22, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
If they were going to be unsupported from Day 1, then honestly you're not in a position to complain about them staying that way. And is there some magical force preventing you from using Mk5 Dreadnoughts all of a sudden? --Newerfag (talk) 17:05, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
My mistake, when you said Mk4 and Dreadnoughts I thought you meant those separately, because Mk4 Dreadnoughts are not Horus Heresy models. It doesn't matter if they discontinued it because it has not basis on your argument. "Gorgon, of course, is not a HH model-" Full stop, end of story. Doesn't matter how it fits with an army, it's not a Horus Heresy model. "The part about FAQ is pretty self-explanatory-" Apparently not since I still don't know what you mean, the new rulebook was never meant to be anything more than a re-skin and slight alteration of 7th edition (much to my disappointment) and we've gone over the delays already. I do like how you ignored all the links to the weapons though, it's almost as if they didn't get rid of them since those aren't even all the ones I could find, I just felt that was enough to prove a point. -- Triacom (talk) 19:45, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
I never said a word about infantry weapons so I felt free to ignore something I know still in place (the same way you ignored the fact I was talking specifically about Rapiers of Solar Auxilia, but it doesn't really matter). Of course Mk4s Dreadnoughts are not HH models. Infantry in mk2-6 aren't either, by the way, they all appeared in Badab campaign. New Rulebook was said to be "the first edition of Age of Darkness rulebook, based on 7th edition", and what everybody got is 7th with grenades thrown like in 6th, no Invisiblity and Tanks being able to shoot after Ramming, with added flavour of "Solar Auxilia Levy Squad". --95.28.167.165 20:36, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
"I never said a word about infantry weapons"- Got a newsflash for you here, when you say they got rid of most of their weapons, that means you're referring to all of their weapons, Infantry and otherwise. " Infantry in mk2-6 aren't either, by the way, they all appeared in Badab campaign." Then why were you bitching that the Mk 2 armour is gone, if it's not a Horus Heresy set? The rulebook was also exactly what it was described as, the main difference was flavour text since all of that was re-written to be HH specific. -- Triacom (talk) 03:55, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
If you want to make an argument for the system being largely unsupported, of which a few models were discontinued (not squatted - no one's retconning them or pretending they didn't exist), in which the rule set is also not well written or updated often, fine. Personally I wouldn't even attribute BaC and BoP's being discontinued to this (it makes more sense that they discontinued them considered they now have 4 starter sets, plus mini versions of Dark Imperium and Battleforces), but if you feel like twisting it that way, go ahead. All that said, GW is not destroying HH - they are slowing down after a lead designer died and are trying to focus on their main games to make them affordable and actually fucking playable (even giving LotR some love), and HH is temporarily suffering because of it. Even if it was all that bad, this belongs on the Forge World page, not here. --Kracked Mynd (talk) 18:41, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
Dwarfing rules team to 3 men who can't do their job efficently is not "slowing down". Everybody knew BaC and BoP are not meant for 40k or as a standalone games, there is no "twisting" there. Forge World has nothing to do with this reorganisation as it was under GW's orders. --95.28.167.165 16:45, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
Is that why Betrayal at Calth and Burning of Prosper used different rulesets from HH? Sounds an awful lot like a standalone game to me. --Newerfag (talk) 17:58, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
"Everybody knew BaC and BoP are not meant for 40k or as a standalone games-" Then why did they have advertising that they were standalone games, and why were there books/pdf's released allowing the models to be used in 40k? Seems to me the only one who thought they weren't for 40k or a standalone game on their own was you. -- Triacom (talk) 03:38, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
Or why the Tartaros, Cataphractii, Sisters of Silence, Custodes, and Contemptor all got 40k rules and they all got plastic sets in the 40k section of GW's site? --Kracked Mynd (talk) 18:08, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
I mentioned that already but decided to be generous in assuming that he meant the units, rules, and the like that are specific to Horus Heresy. That said, Forge World in general has been suffering from schedule slip ever since 8e was released so the delays are hardly suggestive that HH is being singled out for "being dead or in a coma". --Newerfag (talk) 18:39, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
First, it's new GW's practice to give rules to each and every one plastic model in 40k, nothing's going to be wasted (see Blackstone, for example). Second - a standalone game even an author of which complained nobody ever bought it for his rules, lol. Whatever you say, believe what you will. Third - Forgeworld has been suffering because of a) reorganisation order by GW that sent most of the old guard in Specialist Games b) changing their physical adress, they finished moving in only recently. --95.28.167.165 18:44, 20 December 2018 (UTC)
Oh, so they were meant to be used in 40k then? It doesn't matter why people bought it, the point you tried to make was that the company didn't intend for it to be a standalone game or 40k addition, which is clearly false. Also I'll fix your link for you since it seems you made the same mistake I did. Lastly, how is it you know these things and are still surprised by delays? -- Triacom (talk) 03:38, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
GW got rid of standalone rules for most boxes the moment they realize nobody needs them (see Forgebane and Eldar vs SM boxes, with exceptions of Blackstone (which is a part of larger Warhammer Quest) and Rogue Trader (part of larger Killteam)). It's simply not worth the trouble. Following your logic, Blackstone Fortress and Killteam - Rogue Trader are also 40k releases because they have rules for models inside allowing them to be used in 40k. Is a concept of "not wasting anything" that hard to understand? Lastly, see the piece about Specialist Games and Forgeworld teams. I have to explain myself, however: by no means I think most of the old guard got moved in Specialist Games against their will - Hoare is the same to Necromunda that Bligh was to Heresy, for example. But that doesn't explain FW team being basically left on the cold - it's not like they had a chance to do anything with HH the first half of last year with 8th coming out and all the Indexes, FAQs and erratas. They obviously in desperate need of either more experienced stuff or an increase in numbers, which is, as we see, not something GW is going to do. Therefore the present and the future of HH is grim, and it's NOT only because of Bligh's death (however, I'd be damned if he'd allowed any of this shit).--95.28.167.165 13:22, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
Do share with us the crystal ball you're using to predict the future here. Or have you not considered the possibility that they're not going to announce it until it's done?--Newerfag (talk) 17:05, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
Which ball? The same that told me Specialist Games have all their books written for 2019, unlike FW's team, who don't even have a slightest clue when Fires of Cyraxus, for example, would be ready? It's called Warhammer Community Twitch, sometimes worth checking, you know.--95.28.167.165 20:36, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
It's almost as if Forge World makes its books on its own time and has always done so, weird right? -- Triacom (talk) 03:55, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
GW got rid of Forgebane and Wake the Dead? Well, that's news to GW. Also that's a re-write of what I told you earlier, they get rid of them when they stop selling. "Following your logic, Blackstone Fortress and Killteam - Rogue Trader are also 40k releases because they have rules for models inside allowing them to be used in 40k." That's right, you're slowly figuring it out. These boxes were advertised as having the rules in them so you could use them in 40k games, that makes them 40k models. Is that hard to understand? "Is a concept of "not wasting anything" that hard to understand?" Then why does GW leave certain models out of their new Codices and you need to carry a copy of the old Index around to use them? GW's no stranger to dropping old models, yet I don't see you complaining about that sort of thing, like the vast majority of OOP characters in Age of Sigmar, or OOP Daemonettes, or OOP Raptors. Once again too I like how you point out the problems that Forge World had, yet decide to still treat the delays as a surprise and ignore that they did do stuff with HH, they kept making models and shelved stuff like: Imperial Armour: Talons of the Emperor until they could get some HH stuff out since they didn't want to make it seem like they were dropping it for 8th edition. By your logic Fires of Cyraxus doesn't seem to be coming out, so the future of the Mechanicus looks grim.
This is getting fucked up. Where did I EVER said a word about Forgebane and Wake the Dead getting rid of?! They, however, have no standalone rules like BaC and BoP had! If you think Kill Team and Blackstone Fortess are 40k release, I have no further questions. GW leaves certain models out of their new Codices because they no longer produce them, yeaah, so? 40k has 30 years of history, HH has 6, and GW usually either replace models or produce something new instead of making empty promises they are not going to keep. Problems are always the reason of the delays, but if a team can't get their shit together for a year, maybe it's not a temporary difficulties, but a pattern? Adeptus Mechanicus are GW's army, and comparing those, as was already said, is wrong. --95.28.167.165 20:36, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
"This is getting fucked up. Where did I EVER said a word about Forgebane and Wake the Dead getting rid of?!" I think it was right here: "GW got rid of standalone rules for most boxes the moment they realize nobody needs them (see Forgebane and Eldar vs SM boxes-" Either you're saying they got rid of them since you're using them as an example of something GW got rid of, or you don't realize what you just said which, given how you've said English isn't your first language, I'd understand (and I genuinely don't mean that sarcastically). "They, however, have no standalone rules like BaC and BoP had!" That's right, it's almost as if these models were meant to be used as 40k models and not meant to be their own separate game with a crossover feature. " GW leaves certain models out of their new Codices because they no longer produce them, yeaah, so?" There you go, you just answered why these models are getting cut, they're no longer being produced and that happens when they no longer sell or want to come out with a new kit. When the rulebooks get updated they might go or they might not, or they might receive new models, we don't really know now do we? "GW usually either replace models or produce something new instead of making empty promises they are not going to keep." Did Forge World promise to keep all of its models in stock? I don't recall that happening. Like I said earlier, there have been more things happening than just Bligh's death, having delays like this after these sort of setbacks isn't surprising and is relatively common in other industries as well (especially the videogame industry). You also completely missed my comment about the Mechanicus, Fires of Cyraxus has the rules for the 30k Mechanicum models, it not coming out means you wouldn't be able to use them in your 40k game and since you keep claiming that 30k's ending, the future for Mechanicus looks grim since how many models would they lose out on? -- Triacom (talk) 03:55, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

Could we, like, *not* do this? This conversation is clearly not going anywhere. It’s clogging the feed LordPorkins (talk) 18:54, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

It's either argue here or on the main page, and I'd rather do it here any day of the week. -- Triacom (talk) 03:40, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
I say we just show him the door. He's done nothing but bitch, moan, and whine about his little pet peeve and isn't going to stop unless he's forced to do so. --Newerfag (talk) 17:07, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
I'm tempted to agree, the anon's resorted to trying to claim that certain discontinued 40k models are really HH models and it's wearing thin. Their conspiracies about why the delays are in place (while still acting as if there shouldn't be delays like this) are also nuts. -- Triacom (talk) 19:45, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
So to sum up, you think everything is well, HH is in turmoil definetely not because of GW disbanding the old team following Bligh's death and new team failing to work with same efficiency (apparently, voicing those facts are now "conspiracy theories", "paranoia" and "obsession"), and everything would be better still? Have it your way, I have no problems leaving the field clear for you to edit whatever Absolute Truth you want to put into the article. --95.28.167.165 20:36, 21 December 2018 (UTC)
What I think is that you're making a mountain out of a molehill and are letting your bias cloud your judgement. Are things slower? Yes, have they stopped? No, therefore the game isn't dead or in a coma. Listing things like GW killing Betrayal at Calth because it outsold the AoS range is a conspiracy theory, that's what I'm referring to, same with claiming that GW is the one who shifted the people to specialist games. In the way that you said this, you makes it sound like GW's intentionally working against HH (although maybe that was unintentional on your part). I've no problem with people calling stuff out, but they have to be accurate when they do so. -- Triacom (talk) 03:55, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

Wow this is FUN. It’s almost like we’re back on 4chan proper ey Boys? But really though, we should probably stop this. This page is getting longer than some of the proper, full scale pages. I think it’s got Mechanicus beat right now. Which, considering this is mostly circular bickering is a bit... unbecoming. LordPorkins (talk) 00:51, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

We can always collapse it later, it's better to talk here than through summaries on the main page or ending it by trying to kick out a user when they're still participating in the discussion. Besides, it's still not as long as another particular talk page. -- Triacom (talk) 03:55, 22 December 2018 (UTC)
His participation is now nothing more than maddened ranting. Skip "trying" to kick him out, just do it. --Newerfag (talk) 07:19, 22 December 2018 (UTC)

[edit]

IDK I like GW Death Korps of Krieg Soldier (talk) 01:20, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

GW's "Warhammer is for everyone" backlash just started[edit]

https://boundingintocomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/2020.07.03-02.06-boundingintocomics-5eff3b5ae3bbf.png

One fan was completely done with GW's stance for BLM and booting out fans if they don't agree with them.

That fan comes off as just whining without really knowing what they're whining about, and GW's right to put out their statement, because you should not allow everyone into your community, as that author thinks. When you have outspoken racists like ArchWarhammer, who house and give a voice to pedophiles in their discord server (not to mention making them a mod) you should not allow them in. When you have homophobes like Gamza who compare being gay to being a pedophile, and who endlessly bitch about the new Sisters of Battle not being hot, then you should tell them they're not wanted. If the author of that long and verbose statement doesn't get this, then they need to take a step back from the hobby and think about what happens when you allow these people in. Being tolerant of other people does not make a tolerant community, oddly enough, it just creates a community that favours and supports those who are better able to exploit it. Finally, if this is what drives them away then I have no pity for them, the game itself isn't going to change, GW isn't putting rules in place that force you to paint Guardsmen black or include women in your force, regardless of what it is, and unless their hobby group was full of the racist homophobes like Gamza and ArchWarhammer then the people they play with will remain the same, and if not, it's better they're no longer around them. Any statement by GW is meaningless when it comes to the models and gameplay.
TL;DR: that former fan won't be missed. -- Triacom (talk) 18:15, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

They seem like they know exactly what they are on about. GW has added more fuel to an increasing politically aggressive fandom. It's getting to the point that online people either want female space marines and talk about how "problematic people" should be kicked out the fandom and using fucks like Arch as scapegoats to group anyone right of Stalin and who disagrees with them as bigots, or how you don't want the hobby to include women at all and calling anyone left of Mussolini an SJW, and using delusional Trannies making stupid videos online as their scapegoats. Both sides are now more vocal and unbearable as ever. This guy wanted GW to calm everyone down but they did the opposite and it pissed him off enough to quit the hobby. GW was really fucking stupid to make that post and should have just stayed quiet.

Also unironically using "won't be missed". Was it you're plan to out yourself a faggot or do you just lack that self awareness. -- SabbatMartyr (talk) 22:01, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Either you allow tools like Gamza, ArchWarhammer and his pedophile mods in or you need to state that kind of behaviour is unacceptable, there is no middle ground on this issue and GW was going to have to come out in favour of calling them out or showing support for them. Doing nothing at all would be as bad as showing support because you're still allowing them into the community and tolerating what they're saying as if it's acceptable. Vocally denouncing them doesn't mean you need to go right on through to making female space marines however, it just means you're not in favour of racists, homophobes or pedophiles. "Also unironically using "won't be missed". Was it you're plan to out yourself a faggot or do you just lack that self awareness." I'm assuming this was meant for me, so I'll explain. I said that because wanting a company to accept everyone regardless of their personal beliefs or the beliefs they force onto others shows that the author is extremely naive, as I said above, being tolerant does not lead to a tolerant community, and either this former fan does not understand that, or they sympathise with those the post was targeting. In both cases nobody will miss them, we don't need somebody telling us we need to accept anybody I've mentioned above, and we definitely don't need somebody who chooses to sympathise with them. -- Triacom (talk) 22:14, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

It would have been fine for GW to not call out these people out because you can realistically count them on 1 hand. The idea that if you don't call out every little nasty person you are approving of them is bullshit. Not to mention the the exact problem of that this guy is talking about is how it made tensions worse in the community, with some people trying to use it to push anyone they don't like out of the hobby for even the slightest idea of wrong think or disagreement, on both sides of the political spectrum mind. And all of these stupid fucking arguments start on Reddit, Facebook or Twitter anyway were very few actually make posts or talk about stuff publicly, so it's a minority of the minority that GW were trying to please with this statement.

  • But regardless, we shouldn't actually be using the talk page for a political argument. I'm assuming anons original post was trying to imply if we should add a paragraph about the backlash to the article. I would say yes, but actually talk about it from both points of view and try to be unbiased about it. -- SabbatMartyr (talk) 23:25, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
"It would have been fine for GW to not call out these people out because you can realistically count them on 1 hand." One look at ArchWarhammer's discord shows that's bullshit. You don't need to call them out individually, you just need to state what is and isn't acceptable, and as for tolerant communities getting overrun by shitheads, all you need to do is look at people like Mister Metokur to see examples of that. Both himself and anyone he runs with who prides themselves on having a tolerant community gets overrun with the worst of the worst, and by not curbing their behaviour they only enable them to turn their community into an echo chamber for their own beliefs. After that the original creator gets influenced by them, and it isn't long before you find them ignoring their own failings, intentionally using racial slurs in a derogatory fashion (I remember Mister Metokur going from a somewhat okay person, to calling a black kid with glasses a "ni--er nerd") and looking for scapegoats, which are likely the Jewish or Chinese. "some people [are] trying to use it to push anyone they don't like out of the hobby for even the slightest idea of wrong think or disagreement-" GW's statement has nothing to do with them. They do not advocate for bullying people out of the hobby and anyone trying to do that is just as free to leave, they're only slightly less of a shithead and the hobby's better off without them. "so it's a minority of the minority that GW were trying to please with this statement." You should take some marketing classes, one of the first things you learn is the outspoken on social media are only the tip of the iceberg, and you're guaranteed to find thousands more like them if you look. "But regardless, we shouldn't actually be using the talk page for a political argument." It's a political issue, you cannot talk about it without being accused of being political. After all, you seem to think I'm being political when I'm not, unless saying that racists, homophobes, pedophiles and their sympathisers are not wanted in the hobby is somehow political. If you really think that's political, then you should give a long look at which party you think you're joining when you call other people faggots for saying pedophile sympathisers won't be missed. "I would say yes, but actually talk about it from both points of view and try to be unbiased about it." What exactly do you think the 'other point of view' is on this issue? It isn't the people advocating against stuff like female space marines or custodes, that wasn't even on the table as far as GW's post goes and anyone crying about that sort of thing, regardless of where they stand on it, is off topic when it comes to GW's post. -- Triacom (talk) 23:47, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

"GW's statement has nothing to do with them." Except the guy in the original article was pointing out how GW's statement made these types of people more aggressive and vocal, so while GW technically didn't say they should do this, it is still their fault for making these people more emboldened and self righteous. And while I agree Gamza and Arch are cunts (I didn't know about the pedo enabling thing till you told me), I feel like the community as a whole was fine at dissociating themselves to them without GW's need to toss some petrol on the fire. As for the two points of view, it was people who think the message was necessary people who think the message was unnecessary. -- SabbatMartyr (talk) 00:20, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Hold on a minute, you just said that choosing to do nothing is not a show of support, however GW's statement doesn't support the people you're talking about and you're trying to act as if it does because it doesn't speak out against them. You can't have it both ways, and this is what I was talking about earlier, if you house that type of person within your community, choosing to do nothing against them only emboldens them. "I feel like the community as a whole was fine at dissociating themselves to them without GW's need to toss some petrol on the fire." Except that leads to GW also getting lumped in with them by allowing them to be a part of its communities. "As for the two points of view, it was people who think the message was necessary people who think the message was unnecessary." How exactly do you think that's going to translate to the main page? If you say some people didn't think it was necessary to speak out against the types of people I listed, then the point one the page is going to look very one-sided. -- Triacom (talk) 00:38, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm not saying GW is supporting people bullying other people out the hobby. I am saying that their actions accidentally caused this type of behaviour to escalate, when I feel like if they had not said anything, the community would be calmer and less aggressive. GW is not supporting this behaviour, they just accidentally caused it. As for how you show both sides fairly, you say "Some members of the community believed this message was necessary to call out specific people (/pol/) in the community to try and clean out it's less likeable parts, while others believe that the message has caused more unrest in the community and caused people to be pushed out of the hobby for simply having opposing political views to someone else". -- SabbatMartyr (talk) 01:08, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Except they said nothing in support of those people, they took no action against them which caused their behaviour to escalate, and that is my point. By doing nothing you make the situation worse. "I feel like if they had not said anything, the community would be calmer and less aggressive." If there's anything we've learned since the announcement that the old world was returning, it's that this isn't the case. People get vocal about everything, and neither side needs an excuse to jump at the other's throat. As for how you'd represent it, that sort of vagueness does a disservice to the original statement unless we post the original statement in its entirety, but then that makes those other people against it look bad because it'll become clear which "political views" GW was targetting. -- Triacom (talk) 01:22, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

"Inclusion by Exclusion" Is blatant hypocrisy on GW's behalf. i don't care who you are, warhammer is for everyone Regardless whether you like it or not, No if's buts or "you will not be missed." It's only let to further hatred and discrimination in the community, who cares if you browse a korean basketweaving forum, its not peoples place to scream MUH YAHTZEE and to have you decapitated, nor is it your place to even bring that up, you are there to play a game, you put your differences aside and come together to enjoy something. GW bringing politics into an escapist hobby they have no grounds to has only done harm. --TheRealAOG (talk) 13:52, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

And yet by being fully inclusive they'll be excluding/alienating people who don't share the same beliefs as the most outspoken people in the hobby. I've already gone over this above, but since you didn't read it I'll repost some of it: "GW's right to put out their statement, because you should not allow everyone into your community, as that author thinks. When you have outspoken racists like ArchWarhammer, who house and give a voice to pedophiles in their discord server (not to mention making them a mod) you should not allow them in. When you have homophobes like Gamza who compare being gay to being a pedophile, and who endlessly bitch about the new Sisters of Battle not being hot, then you should tell them they're not wanted." It would be nice if everyone could put their differences aside to play the game, unfortunately that's not the case. These are the same people who are so are so unable to divorce their own politics from the game that they have a fit about Warhammer Adventures as if it's going to blow up their collection, and these are the same people who literally write email campaigns and ask all of their fans to spam GW's customer service to "save" the hobby whenever something happens they don't like. If you really do want the game to be something where everyone puts aside their politics to play it, then you need to exclude those who cannot put aside their politics to play it. -- Triacom (talk) 18:03, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

TLDR Lol ok Bigoted discriminator --TheRealAOG (talk) 04:59, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Powercreep in 9th Edition[edit]

To give a counterargument to the "new codices always win tournaments with a focus on new model kits" argument: New codexes almost always bring new challenges to the table that even experienced players and tournament goers need time and first hand experience to overcome. This results in a spike of victories for new codices until everyone else figures out how to beat them. Once the meta had settled, older 9th Ed and even 8th Ed armys still place high in tournaments. Source: https://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2021/07/03/warhammer-40k-9th-edition-top-itc-tournament-lists-june-2021/

That new model kits tend to be overrepresented can generally explained by two factors: It makes sense from a business standpoint to being out new stuff and incentives people to get it and secondly new stuff opens up new oppertunitys to play in a tournament setting.

These two factors result in new models getting introduced into the meta and, depending on their actual effectiveness they either stay part of the meta (the Sister Nundam character or Bladguard Blobs) or fall to the wayside (mass mortifiers). But this also creates waves of reconsideration of old units and their ability to counter new stuff. The Space Marine Contemptor with double Volkite Spam comes to mind, something the fraction could do since early 9th but only just started implementing in tournament winning lists.

Overall the balancing of 9th Ed Codices is quite good, no single unit combination is currently dominating the meta like triple Riptides did at the end of 7th Ed and all fractions can place high with most fractions getting their spor in the limelight.

Just my 2 cents

37.201.215.153 07:25, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

I disagree: the most recent examples of Dark Eldar and AdMech Codexes show they were not properly tested or purposefully broken. What fixed them (somewhat) were nerfs via FAQs, not meta changes. --Flutist (talk) 18:26, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
I heard that T'au have a ludicrously outdated Codex and have performed quite well, as did the Harlequins. I won't contest Codex creep exists but I can't tell you if its worse or not this edition. But for now, at least its nothing like the BS of the Iron Hands Codex Supplement. --Lord Of The Lemmings (talk) 19:33, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

A very civil discussion about recent events[edit]

Krustykrabunfair.jpeg

Geedubs is Unfair! Kevin D. Rountree Is In there! Standing at the concession, plotting his Oppression!

How will Games Workshop handle 3D Printing?[edit]

So, how do you think Games Workshop will handle 3D printing, as in a few years the cost would have reduced to the level that most people who want to collect anything more than a few models would save money by buying a 3D printer and printing models (plus custom models are much easier to make).

So far, probably the way they've been handling it; by ignoring it entirely. They've not exactly been known for being consumer friendly and with their extremely strict rules when it comes to models in their officially sanctioned events, you can't exactly use custom made 3D printed models. I think it'd take a majority of their entire consumer base shifting over to 3D printing for them to publicly acknowledge it, much less deign to compete with it.
Honestly I think that 3D printing is oversold as a threat to GW. Their real value lies in their Intellectual Properties rather than hawking DYI Army Men.