Talk:Grey Knights

Time to fix this page

Where is the humour? Everything is so uptight and serious!

Its a huge mess of outdated butthurt, that no one thinks is funny and walls of text of writings that should be on other pages.

Article at Grey knight consists of:

The Grey Knight are a bunch of fucking badass SPESS MEHREENS that also, like their brethren, do it for the EMPRAH. Playing a Grey Knights army is like playing 40k on "Hardcore Mode". In an average 1,000 point match, you'll have 20 models and a land raider. But it's okay, because they kick ass. Plus all of their models subscribe to the Rule of Cool.

Is it worth saving? PregoCat 03:16, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I'd say just glue them together and stick a redirect on top of it. Fatum 21:51, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

This article is still a mess. I'll give it a look when I can and fix up the run-ons and redundancy.

This article is surprisingly free of butthurt at the moment, and it reads like a GW sales rep wrote the thing. There's not a single mention of the new Dreadknight model that /tg/ has been so upset with, and nor is there any rage over Draigo nor any flagrant Matt Ward bashing. I'd dare to think GW themselves has had a hand in this, but that would imply they actually give a fuck about what the community thinks. Honestly, I really expect a bit more cynnicism, bias, and sociopathy from 1d4chan. I mean, is 1d4chan ok with this as it is? It's informative, but not very amusing and not all that reflective of /tg/'s current attitude. 09:05, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

We saved the hate for MattWard's article.

A complete remake of this article with no mention of Mattard would be actually nice, with all the new fluff and official editing, even the super-secret box crap sounds more like 1d4chan trying to force a really bad joke (...) than anything ripped off from Spongebob Squarepants, indeed, everyone agrees the Dreadknight is just ridiculous, but it's time to cut the sea of complains. --McNash (talk) 04:13, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

How to Troll anti-Ward posters

We all hate Matt Ward, but we also love trolling people, so here is something you can post on forums to troll people bitching about Ward's fluff...

One of the main themes of the fluff in this latest book is that the GK fight daemons with sorcery. As one or another of them is quoted as saying, the GK don't have to suffer the criticism of anybody who thinks this is a contradiction. Now, is this a revision of previous fluff? Not at all! The closest we come is that GK refused to work with radical Inquisitors who included daemonhosts in their retinues. Fine. All this establishes is that GK don't trust anyone who is not a GK to do this kind of thing. And that's another one of their major themes. That one is heavily implied in the Daemonhunters book and now explicitly laid out in the new book: GK do things that other Imperial citizens are absolutely forbidden to do. Does any of this contradict previous fluff? Nope. That principle is at the very heart of the Inquisition fluff.

One of the purposes of this "fighting fire with fire" theme is to elicit horror. Accessing the power of the Warp is supposed to be really, really terrible. Nothing new here, either. And this reinforces the "GK are able to do what is forbidden to others" theme, given that wielding the Warp is actually a great burden and responsibility for them. It's so dangerous, in fact, that most Imperial citizens, even if they are utterly loyal, need to be executed or at least mindwiped if they become aware that the GK do this or even if they become aware of the very existence of the GK. More horror and nothing new. Indeed, the new book retells the infamous story of the purging of the victorious IG units after Angron was defeated at First Armageddon.

Understanding these themes, we can see how the story of the battle at St. Mariel on Van Horne both makes sense and fits perfectly with past fluff. So the GK arrive to find a few faithful Sisters of Battle holding out against insurmountable odds. The GK kill the Sisters and use their blood to concoct a holy ointment that allows the GK to resist the Bloodtide and win the day. People have shown disgust at the sacrifice of the Sisters. Why? The GK will destroy the loyal population of whole worlds to prevent people from remembering daemonic incursion. What's a few Sisters? People have also said that this seems to be the GK using a daemonic approach that is out of character for them. As to the daemonic approach -- well, yeah, that's exactly what it is. As to not being in keeping with the character of the GK -- haven't you been paying attention? The GK use the weapons of the enemy against them. In the case, the weapon of the enemy was magical tainted blood. The GK fought it with magical pure blood. The pieces should start falling together now.

Maybe you don't like the story. That's one thing. But the story is not "stupid." It makes sense, both internally and in the context of the GK fluff/character. It also doesn't contradict anything that came previously. Matt Ward actually did a pretty good job. It's at least as good as what's in the other codices. As a fan rather than a hater of GW, I'd say that means he did a great job.

Troll bait?

More like troll chum. Mr. Spooky 7:10 PM 27, April 2011 (UTC)

These are flawed arguments, but that's what trolling is I guess.

I got banned from /tg/ for 5 days for posting that.

You should have used a proxy, I get banned all the time but since I use a dynamic IP I ban-dodge, I always purposely get banned then dodge said ban and rub it in mootikins face, the end result is that he gets pissed royaly at me and has been trying to find a way to perma me for months. Downside is that he's become too easy to troll these days.
Mr. Spooky May 9, 2011 (UTC)

The Using body parts of holy people isn't new, old White Drawfs stuff about City of Death have Grey Knights, then daemonhunters used the blood of priest to paint anti-deamon wards. Also it fits with the Sister's theme of martyrdom. It would have helped if Ward wrote it saying the sister's glady allowed themselves to become paint if it would win the battle but yeah.

Also I agree we need a major clean up because 90% of the artical is just butthurt. So unless you want be to add stuff bitching about how the Legion of the Damned ALSO set fire to Nurgle's garden.--D715 (talk) 13:13, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

7th Edition

Is it just me, or was the Grey Knights' Marysueness reduced a bit in the latest Codex? I mean, they suffer heavy losses, they are shown to be actually struggling against demonic temptation, they even lost once...46.121.114.218 07:33, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

7th Edition : this article NEEDS edition

7th Edition Codex changed a fuckton of stuff about the Grey Knights : gone are the Khornate Knights, Kaldor Draigo acting brawn without brain and pwning the Warp for centuries, the sueness of the Gay Knights being invincible no matter what, most of Ward dumb stuff (but still his few good creations), and above all the whole "telling without showing" issue.

Now, the gene-seed of the Emperor just makes them average marines with a different mindset giving them no sensitivity toward chaotic corruption. Most of their fights against Chaos are desperate battles where their only hope of winning comes by acting smart and cautious and not just brandishing their purity like a huge cock to bitchslap Daemons like under Ward's pen, and sometimes this isn't even enough as the Daemonic foe can prove himself to be too much to handle for the sons of Titan, forcing them to declare Exterminatus on a planet after being buttfucked by Slaaneshi daemons (SLAANESHI ! Seriously, the guys that get it in the ass by Khorne daemons, and they like it). Kaldor is shown taking time to elaborate strategies with his fellow Grand Masters (his own plans not being always the best), leading his men through the midst of battle and relying a lot on teamwork, and drowning under Nurgle tarpits only to be saved by badass Sisters of Battle, with whom he gets BFF and doesn't even think once about turning into armor paint. Fluff-dedicated pages also do less purity-and-awesomeness-fanboy fap and more actual telling about why and how they do things, ranging from their recruiting to their precise Chapter organisation, the structure of the Citadel, or many short stories less dedicated to show their sheer badassery and more about which issues they may face in finding the right way to deal with a major Daemonic incursion without being butchered straight away. And also about telling good stories you'll enjoy reading.

All in all, the new Codex is not perfect and didn't undo all the Wardian stuff (some questionable elements, such as the OMGSUPERSECRETBOX, are still there), but is more lively, better written, better balanced, and makes them less mary-suesque. Cue, this page need a LOT of revision, and also sister pages such as Kaldor Draigo's.

• Agreed. Alas, despite being one of the most unabashedly shameless fanboys of the GK, I don't have the 7ed of their Codex (money's tight these days) so I'll have to leave that to a resident neckbeard. Then again I guess I could always just lame it out like it's Cross Tekken and download a copy from somewhere/someone. I need to stop being such a lazy shit and do some fucking writing anyway, so maybe this'd be a good opportunity to get into it again. Creed of Heresy (talk) 23:53, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Loyalists?

So for the holiest of holier-than-thous, they sure do fuck over the Imperium a lot. They've genocided the Celestial Lion for.. well, just for the lulz apparently. They did the same with a bunch of Sisters, may or may not kill any Guard or civilians they cross paths with, and picked a fight with the Space Wolves for christ's sake. Are we sure these guys are actually loyalist? Nevermind their use of warp powers, the fact that they're so eager to genuine loyalist Imperials is just a tad suspicious. -- NathanielPrime

I don't recall the Grey Knights ever meeting the Celestial Lions, let alone fighting them or having any sort of disagreement with them. The Inquisition has had a problem with them in the past, mainly because the Celestial Lions went out on a verbal crusade when an Inquisitor decided to kill the populace of a world whose entire command structure and defence force was taken over by Chaos forces (not surprising in the least that he did that, he was also surprisingly courteous to the Lions as well). The reason they killed the sisters is because Grey Knights are one of the few Imperial forces actually allowed to perform a type of sorcery, in older lore they would also bleed priests dry because their blood, much like the sisters blood, can be made into wards or empower their weapons against any sort of daemonic force. The Grey Knights also do not kill Guard or civilians, they mind-wipe them so that if they're part of another daemonic invasion or daemonic cult, they'll have no clue what to expect or defend against, it's actually much better than killing them because it also wipes the traumatic experience of meeting the daemons/chaos forces and the subsequent war from their mind. They also didn't pick a fight with the Space Wolves, the Space Wolves picked a fight with the Inquisition (and later the Grey Knights) and they've done so multiple times. It's honestly surprising that the Space Wolves haven't been declared traitors seeing as how they defended a Radical Inquisitor Lord who used daemons to counteract a different daemonic invasion, and that's on top of the months of shame. Yes we're sure that they're loyalist, they're the group that epitomizes "The ends justify the means." -- Triacom (talk) 19:48, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

Gene-seed

Has it ever been stated where their gene-seed is from, or should we finally change their Primarch to "Unknown, possibly chimeric". -- Triacom (talk) 20:10, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

It is stated in "Emperor's Gift" by ABD that it is indeed come from the Emperor himself

Got a page number? I'd like to double-check that, especially since ADB writing anything with the Emperor usually goes as well as pouring water on a gasoline fire. -- Triacom (talk) 17:26, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

8e Codex Grey Knights: page 7: "the Grey Knights were born of a new gene-seed, one without the flaws of those that had gone before, and which carried the gift of the Emperors flesh and soul"; page 27: "Along with his pure genetic legacy and psychic power, it was one of the Emperor’s gifts to the newly founded Chapter."; page 37: " They create the germ cells known as gene-seed needed to mould new recruits into mighty Adeptus Astartes. This is the life blood of the Grey Knights, and is their genetic link to the Emperor himself.". Also in The Emperor's Gift: page 334: "They were genetic thinbloods; their gene-seed formed from the flesh and blood of the Emperor’s son, Leman Russ. Our geneseed came from a more direct, purer source. We didn’t call it the Emperor’s Gift as a jest."TheNuclearSoldier (talk) 21:22, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

See my point on the Traitor Legion Loyalist page as to why there was no way for the Emperor to have created it. If you can find something to contradict that, please post it there. -- Triacom (talk) 21:32, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

It was just contradicted. Its stated even in their codex that their geneseed is that of the Emperor's gene-code. Your fan theory doesnt matter.TheNuclearSoldier (talk) 21:35, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

It's not a fan theory. Find me a moment in which the Emperor could've made it, was it when he was stuck on the chair, unable to do anything or was it after he went to fight Horus and was too crippled to do anything but go back on the chair? -- Triacom (talk) 21:40, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

8e Codex Grey Knights page 6 states he started getting everything set up that they needed around the start of "Horus’ final campaign", likely the Solar War. By the siege of Terra, everything was ready, including gene-seed stocks. So the gene-seed was made during the Solar War. TheNuclearSoldier (talk) 21:53, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

AKA when he was on the chair and unable to do anything, that's the source you're citing? If that's what you're going with then we know the Emperor was unable to make unique gene-seed because he could not leave the chair. -- Triacom (talk) 22:23, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

The Emperor had an army of doctors, engineers, and scientists at his beck and call. As shown in The First Heretic, the Emperor didnt make the geneseed by himself. He had his science division do it. All they would have needed is a sample of his genetic code, which they would have no trouble acquiring from him.TheNuclearSoldier (talk) 22:42, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Where in the Grey Knights book does it say that's what happened? I also don't recall a single mention of any strain of gene-seed being made without the Emperor also working on it himself (to what capacity we do not know). Do you have a source where this isn't the case? -- Triacom (talk) 22:46, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

All the Codex needs to say, and it has (see above) is that the Grey Knight's geneseed is made from the Emperor's genecode. End of story. End of debate. Quit posting false info.TheNuclearSoldier (talk) 23:02, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

It's not false info to point out something contradicts something else. Do I need to repost the editor, designer and writer all stating that nothing is 100% fact by design? You seem to have missed that because you're acting as if the Codex could not give you unreliable information. -- Triacom (talk) 23:05, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

If we went with "everything must be 100%, then this site would have 0 entries on 40k. The 8e Codex and a Grey Knights focused fluff novel say their geneseed is made from the Emperor's genecode, older fluff alluded to this as well. Nothing has contradicted this. Your fanon that it would have been impossible to make the geneseed without the Emperor doing himself is just flat wrong. TheNuclearSoldier (talk) 23:09, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Did you somehow miss how the author of the novel you are writing says that there is no true canon to the setting? Furthermore, do you not get that a Grey Knights book is not a good source to go to if you're looking for proof that the Grey Knights don't just believe they have special gene-seed? As I've already pointed out, it contradicts all previous lore of the Horus Heresy to say that unique gene-seed was made for them because the Emperor was unable to move. It is not fanon to point that out, it is fanon to assume that only the passages you like are canon and nothing else is, not even the author who wrote them, which is what you've been doing. Even your guess as to how the Grey Knights got unique gene-seed is an assumption that isn't supported by any in-universe source, you don't get any closer to fanon than that. -- Triacom (talk) 23:15, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

This discussion is over until you show me where it says anywhere that the Grey Knights have chimeric geneseed. Cite your sources and stop trying to push your fan theory. I have shown you more than ample evidence that the Grey Knights use gene-seed made from the Emperor's genecode. Including excerpts with document and page citations. All you have given is your bogus fan theory over and over.TheNuclearSoldier (talk) 23:23, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Show me where it's stated factually on the page that the Grey Knights have chimeric gene-seed. Your only evidence is new lore that contradicts a lot old lore, to the point that these events are mutually exclusive. Either the Emperor did not need to stay on the chair, or the Grey Knights do not have unique gene-seed. -- Triacom (talk) 23:27, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Its in their infobox where it lists their primarch. The fluff umabigiously states they use geneseed with the Emperor's genecode. Now you are making this into a circular argument. Ive given you the excerpts and citations. You have nothing.TheNuclearSoldier (talk) 23:31, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Quote me then where it factually says that their gene-seed is chimeric. If it says that then it should be easy for you. -- Triacom (talk) 23:34, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Also if you want to keep using the Codex, please show me where it's established as an infallible source. -- Triacom (talk) 23:29, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Please show me where you are any source whatso ever.TheNuclearSoldier (talk) 23:31, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

I'm not and don't pretend to be, what I can do is point out contradictions, and point out how the game is designed so that the lore is inherently unreliable. -- Triacom (talk) 23:34, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Yes you are. You are deleting info from the page that is stated in the fluff, and replacing it with you own fan theory. You are deliberately vandalizing the page.TheNuclearSoldier (talk) 23:37, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Show me where it's stated in-universe that the lore in the Grey Knights book is infallible and I'll agree with you. Failing that, I'll throw you a bone, show me where the authors have said the Grey Knights Codex is an exception to their rule that nothing is infallible. I'm not replacing your info with a fan theory, I'm pointing out to you that your source has massive holes in it that make it an untrustworthy source, and that we cannot use it as a factual source. -- Triacom (talk) 23:40, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

The codex doesnt need an exception. Nothing contradicts it. Saying the Grey Knights use geneseed from another other source than the Emperor's genecode is flat wrong. You are trying to use the "Nothing is 100%" as an excuse to try and push your fan theory. You have yet to provide anything to even back your fan theory.TheNuclearSoldier (talk) 23:44, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

All the lore stating that the Emperor could not leave the Golden Throne contradicts it. It's not an excuse to say nothing is 100% true, that's how the game was designed. -- Triacom (talk) 23:48, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

That means absolutely nothing. He didnt need to leave the golden throne. Nothing requires he was needed to make it himself. You are just bullshitting at this point.TheNuclearSoldier (talk) 23:50, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Show me where it says he was not required to make it. -- Triacom (talk) 23:52, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Meet me in the middle...

Since I'm growing sick of arguing, I'll try meeting you in the middle. As I've stated before the reason I've undone your edits is because they're presenting information we cannot know to be true as fact. As such I've edited the pages to include what the Grey Knights believe, while making it clear that this isn't 100% confirmed. -- Triacom (talk) 00:07, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Reconciling the lore of the GK's geneseed

Proposal: we take the lore as is, and make the best of it without attempts to fill in the gaps. We state that the Grey Knights use geneseed made from the Emperor, but that we don't know how he made it, as it has not been expressly shown and would be difficult for him to have done so given the events of the Horus Heresy lore, and we smooth it over with humor. We can also include a section specifically for the attempts to fill the gaps/form a complete picture which includes speculation that the geneseed is from another source as well as methods for how he could have had the geneseed made.

* We have lore that states the GK geneseed uses the Emperor's genecode. (Codex Grey Knights 5e/7e/8e; The Emperor's Gift; Pandorax; etc.).

* No in-universe source has ever brought their genetic lineage into question. All debate over their gene-father comes from our beloved fandom.

* We have no evidence that the genecode came from any other source.

* However, the Horus Heresy series does not actually show him making it, which would be difficult given he is kinda glued to that gaudy office chair when he cooks up the plan to make the Grey Knights.

* Yet, as shown in sources like the short story: The Board is Set, the Emperor can use psychic telepathy, and create a psychic projection of himself to communicate and interact away from the throne (which includes planning). Granting the latter only occurred to Malchador and only within a special chamber.

* Conversely, novels like Belisarius Cawl: The Great Work and The First Heretic show that the Emperor didn't develop the Astartes geneseed project alone, he had help from a (notedly non-AdMech) team of scientist and engineers of unknown size, called the "Biotechnical Division".

* We do not know to what extent this Biotechnical Division was involved in the development of the geneseed or how much knowledge of the gene-science and biomancy needed to make the genecode in the geneseed any particular individual member had (the most we have is Ezekiel Sedayne was recruited before the start of the Unification Wars by the Emperor himself and later helped develop the Black Carapace; the Biotechnical Division was seen working on modifying the gene-expression to fix malformed geneseed organs; and the entire Adeptus Astartes development project is named after Amir Astarte who was the director of the project).

* From the novel The Outcast Dead, we do know that Arik Tanaris, a Thunder Warrior and not part of the Biotechnical Division, was also personally educated in gene-science by the Emperor. This allowed him to later reverse engineer the Astartes Proginoid Glands to the point of being able to rapidly clone it.

* There are also the later developments and modifications of geneseed carried out by characters like Cawl and Fabius Bile. Such as the Primaris project and the Chimeric geneseed of the 21st Curse Founding. But these occurred thousands of years after the creation of the Grey Knights.

* However, the Emperor is still the only one we know for sure had the knowledge to make the core genetic material used to make the geneseed.

So given this:

* Taking both sides as canon would have the GKs geneseed being made from the Emperor's genecode, but leaving it unknown how the Emperor actually managed to do it. This is the gap in the lore.

* Saying the GK geneseed is not made from the Emperor's unaltered genes (or even that the GKs only believe it to be which strongly implies that it is not) makes sense of what is directly shown in the Horus Heresy series, but contradicts the lore of the 40k codexes and novels.

* Saying that the Emperor did make the GK's geneseed from his own genecode stays in line with the lore given in the 40k fluff, but isnt shown happening in the Horus Heresy series.

* Anything outside of these boils down to speculation. Such as saying he had his Biotechnical Division make it in his stead, that he projected himself into his lab and made it, that he had a batch already made as an early experiment, that the GK's geneseed is purified/refined Thousand Sons geneseed, that the GK's geneseed is an early Chimeric geneseed, etc.

Sure, if you look on the Traitor Legion Loyalists talk page you'll see that I proposed this solution a while ago, at the time you didn't want to consider it. -- Triacom (talk) 21:47, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

I just did not agree with your version of the comprise as it still caused a contradiction to the lore given in 40k. I apologise for not making myself clear on that, as it would have saved both of us a few headaches. Hence why I looked back over everything and came up with this one that takes both as canon, but with a lore gap as is migraine inducingly common in 30k/40k. A regular couple of Ordo Originatus Inquisitors, aren't we?TheNuclearSoldier (talk)

I think the only thing I would change is adding "according to the Grey Knights Codices", because that makes it clear where you're getting your info from in case somebody else wants to check on it, and it makes it clear the gap in info happens across two separate series rather than in the same one. -- Triacom (talk) 23:51, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

I added a section specifically for their gene-seed. While rolling with the 40k info that it is Big E's baby batter, I pointed out that we really do not know how the Emperor overcame the issues needed to make that happen. We still need the section for speculations on how he did it (or if he actually did).TheNuclearSoldier (talk)

Been thinking about this, but should we even have a Primarch listed on the card for the Grey Knights? If their gene-seed was really derived from the Emperor then that means they're pretty far removed from the other Space Marine Legions when we look at those and the relationship they had with their Primarchs. Furthermore, listing the Emperor as a Primarch is going to cause some confusion by definition (it would be like listing you as your own son) and it's a pretty big simplification of the gene-seed section. If we make it bigger to try and explain the issue though then we're going to make the section too long, so maybe it would be best to delete it entirely. I'm also out currently, and I'll add more to the gene-seed bit when I get home. -- Triacom (talk) 05:14, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

I put that they have no Primarch (because the Emperor is not a primarch), but the gene-seed is made from his gene-code. TheNuclearSoldier (talk)

And I get doing that, I guess to me having it say Primarch: none, is pretty much the same as deleting the line. It doesn't matter too much anyway so we can leave it. -- Triacom (talk) 06:38, 31 January 2020 (UTC)