Talk:Hyperion

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Problems with Homebrew Rules[edit]

We really need to be considering balance with this character, so lets break down what we have and consider cost and effectiveness.

TO this end, we start with a Grey Knights librarian, so base cost. (110p). Add another Mastery Level, so plus 25 points. (135p) Add a storm bolter, so plus 5 points. (140p) Add a "locator beacon," by which I assume they mean a teleport homer, so plus 10 points. (150p) Add a personal teleporter, so plus 30 points. (180p) His Grey Wings of Doom rule should have a 5 point tax. (185p) His Blade Breaker rule should have a 10 point tax, minimum. (195p)

Finally, his absurdly overpowered relic, whose points cost is hard to calculate, but I think my reasoning is sound here. His weapon is essentially a mastercrafted paragon blade, and as if that wasn't enough, it's also an Iron Halo that affects his entire unit. So just for the mastercrafted paragon blade bit we have 35 points, and considering it's an AP2 at initiative weapon, there should be an upcharge for it considering that the Burning Blade relic from the space marine codex (a weapon that does the same thing as the offensive part of this one, without the added invuln save, and it has a chance to hurt you every time you use it) and for all that it's 50(!) points. So we have a Burning blade (50p) minus one point of strength (45p), without it's risks of use (60p), with a built in Iron Halo (70p) that applies to an entire unit, potentially adding 10 4++ saves, so let's call the final cost on that ridiculous relic 90 points.

So we have a 285 point librarian, and that's even ignoring that upcharge most independent characters get in modern codecies.

Now, for this 285 point character, what do we get? Basically just a ML3 Librarian.

His Blade Breaker rule and his kickass staff would make you think he'd be good in challenges, but no. By pure mathhammer, a Khornate chaos lord literally less than half his cost can kick his ass unless he relies on psychic powers, and even then every major challenge character in the game will butcher him. There are only a couple characters in the game with points costs comparable to this 285 point sum (Papa Smurf, Abaddon, a couple Phoenix Lords), and they'll all butcher him.

So if you have to avoid challenge characters, you're basically paying an extra 80 points or so to make a librarian into a very bad challenge character.

I'm going to overhaul his character build considering what would turn him into the most effective and cost effective build.

Also, I don't think the Locator Beacon wargear even exists. It's not listed on battlescribe, but that may just be a typo, so let me know if I'm wrong.

  • Locator Beacons do exist. Scout Bikers and Drop pods can take them. They are the same thing as teleport homers except instead of just allowing terminators to deepstrike without scatter like the TH does, the locator beacon allows all friendly deepstrikers to do so without scattering. So the question is: do you really want to give him the ability to make *everything* not scatter on a deepstrike or the more arguably fluffy non-scattering terminators?--Naeondaemon (talk) 20:18, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
Ah, okay, that explains it. I was specifically just looking at the Grey Knights special character wargear. Normally they can't take the personal teleporter either, but the Dreadknight and squad commander for their jump troops can take it. I'll edit the listing back to locator beacon, as the only reason I was changing it was that I thought it didn't exist. Josman (talk) 22:51, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Problems with homebrew rules part 2[edit]

Three problems here.

One: He's dramatically overcosted, for reasons discussed above.

Two: He's bad at being a librarian because he's going to start taking wounds the more powers he uses.

Three: He's bad at being a melee challenge character because of his mediocre stats.

Given his confused tabletop performance and high cost, no one would ever take Hyperion in anything but the fluffiest games. For his 200+ point cost, you could just bring a librarian and a brotherhood champion, who would both do better than Hyperion in their respective jobs. The solution? Quit mixing your models. Make Hyperion what he's supposed to be: A really good librarian. He's not a challenge character in the lore, so why would he be on the tabletop? These are bad rules, and with just a couple changes, they're pretty good. Josman (talk) 17:00, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

Problems with homebrew rules part 3[edit]

Although I agree with Naeondaemon's points assessment for Hyperion's ML3 Librarian stats, the weapons points/cost analysis was flawed due to misreading the Relic stats. The Relic is S+2 AP4: NOT AP2. In other words, a Nemesis Warding Staff, but with the 6ed buff to Invulnerable Saves (and the FNP...). Hyperion is absolutely not a 'challenge' type of leader or Warlord - if anything, his storyline resolved with him in the much-REMFier role of Prognosticar with a good dose of PTSD. That being said, with tweaks he could be balanced and used as a buffing non-tanky commander.

Lose the Personal Teleporter - he's not an Interceptor any more, although he could still use 'em as troops. Just give him the Deep Strike USR like Strike Squads get if you want to call him in from DSR. Lose the Locator Beacon - he's not calling in Assault Marines. At best provide a Teleport Homer. Lose the FNP from the staff (makes no sense fluff or crunch). Have the staff provide a 4++ for him alone (iron halo), but allow harnessing Warp charges on 3+ when casting Daemonology (Sanctic). For that matter, as a named character he shouldn't be rolling for powers - Give him Banishment, Sanctuary, and Bladebreaker, harnessing all on rolls of 3+ instead of 4+. Maybe Prescience too, since he's a Prognosticar after all.

So: Librarian (ML3): 135 points

   Storm Bolter: 5 Points
   Artificer Armor (vs. Lib TDA): 5 Points
   Relic Weapon (w/Iron Halo): 25 points
   Grey Wings of Doom: 5 points
   Teleport Homer (not Locator Beacon): 5 points
   His Prognosticar ability has penalties associated with it, so 0 points

Total 180 Points - seems reasonable.

One, it wasn't naeondaemon's assessment, it was mine, although I forgot to sign it so you can hardly be blamed for the mistake. The assessment was based off of the old rules that he had up in which his stats were better, his power was different, and his relic was AP2. The current rules up on the page are my more balanced interpreation. Josman (talk) 05:59, 9 December 2016 (UTC)