Talk:MedHammer 40,000

Deletion

Since a lot of my ideas were not very well received, and it looks like people want to take MidHammer drafts in a different direction, would it be alright if i delete my MidHammer Pages? None of them make sense with the current page, and I am not the original creator of the MidHammer Drafts concept, so I think it would make more sense to remove the pages I created, or at the very least leave them blank, so that they can be worked on by someone else interested in the MidHammer Project. Not sure what the process for this is.

Deleting it all and going back to the drawing board is certainly an option; the only other option I can see is branching it out in several different directions simultaneously and sorting all the pages carefully by branch. Blowthemandown (talk) 07:41, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

What do you mean? Something like Brighthammer 2nd Edition? Because my current plan was just to retool it on my own, or simply move on to other projects. --Wammnebu (talk) 16:28, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Is this alright? I can take this down, if i need to? but I transferred it to a new series of pages?--Wammnebu (talk) 19:39, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Comments

Although the writing so far has been successful on a cosmic level, I think that it would be beneficial to point out the flaws and objections of the galaxy, especially the Primarchs. The heroes and technology just seem too good. Maybe show the fundamental rights violated by having three people effectively run the Imperium, or the sheer number of conflicts that still occur between the Imperium and the Eldar, despite their kinda truce. Also, a more official name for the Lorgar Letdown would be great. --Kracked Mynd (talk) 19:10, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback! Definitely agree, any ideas and advice are welcome!

So on the main MidHammer talk page i had a couple suggestions for names for the Lorgar letdown. The main one ive been going with is "The Great Treachery" because it highlights how naive this Imperium is, while at the same time stressing how the Imperium views the psychological damage.

As far as your second point, you might be right that I might have made it too good, but let me explain my current thought process, and tell me what you think:

I'm operating under the premise that the phenomenal Warhammer 50k is canon for vanillla. As such The Imperium is holding on but in reality it never had a snowball's chance in hell of facing off against the true threats to the galaxy. In wh50k chaos does. The Imperium does have that snowball's chance in MidHammer 50k. But that requires one of the factions to not make it. Giving the imperium the webway changes too much, and removing factions like necrons or tyrannids makes no sense. The midhammer premise is based on the idea that the heresy was a bust, so chaos is obviously the weakest faction and therefore is a prime candidate to not survive to 50k.

So the current idea is less that the Imperium has it good, but that Chaos has it bad. So bad to the point where the traitors see their end in sight, and the Imperium is slowly gearing up for what will actually be the main fight for the galaxy: The Necrons, C'tan, and Tyrranids. This universe shouldn't be grimbright because everything is dandy, but because for the Ruinous Powers the universe is grimdark, theirfore the Galaxy has an actual fighting chance against the true galaxy ending threats.

In the meantime, if you have some suggestions for how to make ths more "grim," please write them down. Here are some of the ideas i have, but have yet to flesh out.

• Rogal Dorn's Segmentum Tempestus is an actual nightmare to live in. He is so obsessed with making an inpenetrable fortress that the whole segmentum is a nightmarish dystopia where everything is nothing more than raw materials for Dorn's obsession.
  • The Tallarn are now migrants, they were kicked off their home when Dorn decided he needed the planet for his massive architecture projects.
  • When i say Dorn is obsessed with preparation to the point of madness, i mean he will build dysonspheres on stars which transform "unnecessary" agriworlds and feudalworlds into uninhabitable darkness.
• I think the Lion's Segmentum Obscura should be bad too, but im not sure how yet (any ideas?).
• Ultramar, while the heart and soul of this new world, is also not a great place to live. The kingdom is swarming with petty fighting nobles, religious fanatics, tyranid invasions, and t'au incursions (speaking of...)
• I'm thinking that the birth of ynnead will be less of a hail mary pass for the imperium and more of when the eldar try to go on the offensive and the truce frays.
• The T'au in this universe are much more aggressive, they are puppets of the Eldar who are essentially using them to poke at the Imperium's underbelly whenever things start going too well for them.
• Because the Dark Eldar (from the origional page) are significantly less dark and because the webway wasn't overrun by demons, The Eldar have more unity than in vanilla, and because of that they can bully the Imperium out of the webway.
• Tzeentch and Alpharius stole the Heart of The Emperor, so until the Imperium gets that back the Emperor will never fully recover. That means they actually have to WIN against chaos, and win before the Necrons wake up and the Tyrannid Fleet arrives.
• Because of Gulligod and Chaos destroying itself, Malal and his servant Corax is much more powerful in this universe. That could pose problems for both the Imperium and Chaos.

I wanted the Imperium to look like it was in holding pattern until the emperor has recovered. Not really winning, but not really losing either. They aren't really able to beat anyone (except maybe chaos) until the emperor is better, but they are doing their darnedest to hold on.

Do you have any ideas for fleshing out events and scenarios? --Wammnebu (talk) 21:28, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

Personally, I'm only marginally interested (and I have a lot of other shit to do), but I'll see if I can't drop in here and there. --Kracked Mynd (talk) 05:29, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Cool, yeah looks like you have a lot of neat projects. Let me know if you run into something that i am writing you think is stupid or bad.--Wammnebu (talk) 22:12, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

The Midhammer main page seems to disagree here with the Drafts page. And honestly, I like the ideas of the Midhammer page better. The current tone you set is getting to be close to Nobledark Imperium.

--Washington001 (talk) 23:03, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

That certainly wasn't my intention. Which parts in particular do you think are too Nobledark? Are there particular offending sections, or is it the entire drafts page. Do the other MidHammer Pages have similar problems? --Wammnebu (talk) 01:47, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Nothing really in particular, the destruction of two legions, effective dissolution of two more, and one not even fit to be called a company just kinda feels off. I dunno. Also, idea: Lamenters are now Ultramarian. --Washington001 (talk) 00:23, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

I'm not married to the idea that EC and TS be eliminated, the main reason i wrote that was.

1. added some grim but were also the smallest legions. The imperium has 10k years to hold its strength back up, it can afford to lose some in the LL.
2. on the main talk page it was mentioned that this scenario probably accelerated the primaris program. since fulgrim/magnus are the science primarchs, making them lose their legions would drive them to accelerate the project. Perhaps by m41, magnus has a Primaris Thousand Son army.

Definately open to alternatives though

Ultramarine Lamenters is a great idea. If you have an idea for them you should put them in the SM page . I based The Golden Sorrow/Black Eutenites on the Lamenters. --Wammnebu (talk)

I definitely agree about the tone being wrong in this draft, with the destruction of entire legions being emblematic of why, along with the destruction of Terra (wasn't the basic idea behind MidHammer that the Heresy wasn't as bad?) and heartbroken Primarchs running around crying everywhere. Or running around at all. If MidHammer's grimbright tone is about how salvation lies in the common soldier laying down his life every day until we make it through the darkest hour, then having galaxy-shaping epic heroes running around just gets in the way. And if a primarch isn't a galaxy-shaping epic hero, he isn't a primarch.

I suppose you could have one or two, just to show that MidHammer isn't as completely hosed as 40k. Maybe Magnus runs the Adeptus Astra Telepathica, and Corax is playing Sanguinor with his sons: showing up, helping, vanishing without a trace. But you shouldn't just say that this one is running the Imperial government and that one is Warmaster now. Most of them should be gone, maybe vanished into the Eye, and probably one should die to the Archtraitor right before the climactic fight with the Emperor - the Sanguinious to his Horus. Maybe Horus himself? Blowthemandown (talk) 05:34, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for taking the time to look it over! Sorry i am responding to you so late. If you wouldn't mind me defending my positions a bit.

You are probably right that i have overhyped the darkness of this universe a bit, but all of this grimness is for the 30k world, the point is that things get better by the I think this may partia

" If MidHammer's grimbright tone is about how salvation lies in the common soldier laying down his life every day until we make it through the darkest hour, then having galaxy-shaping epic heroes running around just gets in the way." I like this idea, but that is absolutely not how it is portrayed in the original Midhammer page. Its essentially a given that the Emperor, and several of the primarchs are not only alive, but are active in Galactic affairs. To quote the opening of the MidHammer Page " aims for a grimbright or 'grimlight' feeling; barring the Emperor and the Primarchs, plus maybe a lucky few exceptional people, a single individual is unlikely to alter the state of the galaxy meaningfully, being but a single drop on the platter of history. Yet together, the people of the Imperium stand, each doing their part, pooling their single drops into an unstoppable tide that washes away the darkness. Many die, and they shall sadly not be remembered, but their deeds shall forever be honoured." The page also seemed to imply at the time that most of the Primarchs were involved in the administration of the Imperium to some capacity, but the details were unwritten. Given the way the page, and the origional /tg/ page was written It seems like Horus, Sanguinius, Fulgrim, and Ferrus Manus are alive, loyal, and active (with fulgrim and ferrus manus being the exception as they seem to just be going on adventures together). That's why i Had Roboute Gulliman killed, it seemed like a valuable asset to the imperium, but wasn't part of the "Dont Touch" primarchs mentioned above.

Im trying to make the Lorgar Treachery bad, so the Imperium actually has some something to bounce back from. That being said, unlike in 40k, nothing was destroyed that couldn't eventually be rebuilt.

Destruction of Terra -I go into more detail on that with this page, as well as the Religion pageby M40 i dont think Terra is so much destroyed as there is a ceiling on its development. Instead of being the massive nightmarish metropolis that it is in vanilla, Terra is small-medium sized administrative center. So where in vanilla, Holy Terra is the sprawling capital like London, Moscow, Tokyo, Beijing, Caracas, and New Delhi; Magna Terra in Midhammer is Washington DC, Ankara, Ottowa, Canberra, Nursultan (Astana), and Brasilia still potent citties in their own right, but are overshadowed by much more wealthy and populous cities within their own country. This is something i think works to the benefit of the Imperium as a whole. It encourages the development of the rest of the galaxy. Because Terra is now no longer sucking the entire imperium dry to feed its glut and sprawl, you can have new major centers, and cultural and industrial hubs develop across the imperium, which in turn, allows the rest of the Imperium to develop and grow. Now the High Lords and Fulgrim, would go around developing the other planets of the imperium, making it stronger as a whole. The Imperium of Man likely has a similar issue to the old Spanish Empire with its treasure ships, wheras spain is so dependent on getting its golden payday from these ships, that it doesn't care how inefficient and wasteful the process was, leading to The Spanish Empire as a whole stagnating. That Gold could have been used to develop the empire, but instead the gold just left the new world colonies destitute, and even left Spain destitute as the gold just went to fighting wars in Europe. Here some of those resources have a chance at being invested properly. I dont think a War of The Beast in this world would ever even get close to Terra, and between the greater prosperity of the Realm, and the redundant defense networks (Imperial Legions, Tributed Auxillaries, Segment Primarchs and their armies, Codex Astartes Chapters), the forces of Chaos don't have a prayer of taking the Imperium. In fact they are on the defensive, with Cadia being a stronghold of perturabo that the Imperium can just keep throwing guardsmen at. Meanwhile Terra is much more secure from both internal and external threats. The Custodes have much more control over the planet's affairs, and a smaller planet means there is less intrigue and corruption. Terra is now a quiet city of of Metahumans and Monuments.

Destruction of the Legions Only three legions were destroyed. The Thousand Sons, Space Wolves and the Emperors Children, and those were legions with both the smallest numbers as well as severe problems with their geneseed. The Imperium still has Seven Full Legions, and some partial (Dark Angels, Salamanders, Blood Angels, Luna Wolves, Iron Hands, Night Lords, White Scars, Death Guard), and when the Primaris Founding happens, the Thousand Sons and Emperor's Children will get their legions back, moving that number to 10. Meanwhile The Forces of Chaos have only 4 full legions, (Alpha Legion, World Eaters, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers), since the Raven Guard and their Malal Worship means they can not be counted on for the black legion, and Mortarion's Death Guard saw a mass desertion under Garro.

In the Case of the Ultramarines and Imperial Firsts, they are Retired legions, but they aren't destroyed, they were just shattered into chapters. All of whom are doing very well, if not much larger than their pre-horus heresy strength. So now the Galaxy has all of these sons of Dorn, Gulliman, and Fulgrim (adopted Iron Hands), protecting the populous from incursions and building fortifications. I really dont think the Imperium is undermanned. Chaos is certainly undermanned, but they were never the real threat to the galaxy, that would be the orks, tyrannids, and necrons. The much more powerful T'au and Eldar are certainly threats too, but they can also be reasoned with when facing the true galaxy ending threats, and are a much more comprehensible enemy.

Is there a better way i could world the destruction of these legions? If i said they were "Retired" would that sound less bad?

The Destruction of the Primarchs The Horus Heresy primarchs are a bunch of whiny arrogant primadonas. The point of all the bad things happening, was that they are forced to confront their past behavior and "grow up." Magnus has to grow out of his arrogance, Fulgrim his vanity, Horus his insecurity towards the Emperor, Konor his dark alter ego, and The Lion his Paranoia. They have a couple mellinia to cope and find themselves, they'll be fine. And ultimately when they do, it works in the imperium's advantage. In the case of Horus for instance, i wanted his stepping down as warmaster to be temporary as he reckons with his own insecurities. Meanwhile Sanguinius will try his best to be warmaster, but eventually give the job back to Horus, in this universe's equivalent of "Dark Imperium." And again, the origional page gives very little to the treachery, i had to make it devastating somehow without actually affecting the imperium's fighting capacity. As far as their managment of the galaxy goes, its a big place and they cant be everywhere, I think i mentioned on the page, but most primarchs aren't actually involved with the day to day affairs of government. The segmentarchs are, but their reach only extends to their petty kingdoms, and even then that involvement is limited. Rogal Dorn's Tempestus is little more than a Building Supply store for his ambitions, and Vulkan's Ultima Segmentum is so vast and thinly stretched he is mostly running around putting out fires. The only primarchs that are involved in the day to day management of the jobs would be The Lion, Jaghatai Khan (who oversees the Codex Chapters), and Horus (who does all the messy management for Sanguinius). Magnus is managing the Golden Throne, Fulgrim and Ferrus manus are off having adventures, and Curze does whatever he wants.

All in all, i really am trying to follow "Grimlight" but "Grimbright" and "Grimlight's" definitions are really vague. If everyone thinks that this is inappropriate, im probably too far gone to just drop it. Do i ask that it be considered MH 2nd Edition, like they did with bright hammer, or do i move it off the page to somewhere else. Either way, did these help explain anything, or do you disagree? If so do you have anymore feedback for how i could adjust the tone?

--Wammnebu (talk) 16:58, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

I dunno, man, it seems like there's a fundamental disconnect between the original idea of Midhammer, and what you've written. Let me quote the OP from the thread:

"What if the Horus Heresy had not been as succesful as it was, /tg/? What if fewer Primarchs fell to Chaos, fewer heretics fought against the Emperor, and big E himself was only extremely heavily (but not as soul-shatteringly as he actually is) injured, and only has sat upon the Golden Throne for 10,000 years to recover ever so slowly instead of fading away? What if the growth and progress of the Imperium we know from the Great Crusade had been severely slowed or perhaps even (temporarily) halted, but not collapsed into the totalitarian 1984 on steroids we know today? Would this setting lend itself to HIGH ADVENTURE? In short, what if we took the middle path between Warhammer and Brighthammer; MidHammer 40,000, if you will?"

So the original idea was that the Heresy was not as bad, with an emergent tone of "shit's fucked but there's a glimmer of hope." But when I read the drafts here, I don't see that. I see every recruiting world cleansed of life, and every primarch either killed or broken spiritually - worse than Dorn was after the Heresy. The idea that the LL was this bad so that there would be room to bounce back rings false. This is NOT the spirit of the Great Crusade being preserved, this is more like jumping into the grim darkness of the far future a few thousand years early. The more I read this all, actually, the more it seems to me that this was written by someone who hates Warhammer. Someone who wants all the named characters to suffer, and all the unnamed characters to die ignobly - and not in the fun, Shape Of the Nightmare To Come kind of way.

What exactly is the point of wiping out the Thousand Sons and the others? I mean, it's dramatic, I guess, but when I try to think of what it means for Midhammer, I keep coming back to this: all it really means is that you can't do a story with them, because they're gone. You fridged half a faction. Who is that supposed to appeal to? Not the people who like the Thousand Sons, obviously, but not the people who like the Ultramarines or the Imperial Fists - it has nothing to do with them, except that they can't have their Fists fighting Rubric Marines anymore. If they were changed into something else, even something unrecognizable (like, I don't know, a legion of blanks or shapeshifters), there might be people who liked that new thing, or if you just had to give them up in exchange for something else, where it wouldn't make sense to have both, that would be acceptable. But there's nothing to replace it, and it doesn't mesh with the central idea of a less damaging Heresy leading to a more hopeful 41st millennium.

As for tone itself, that's sort of tricky. Our own page on it describes the difference between grim and noble as whether an individual can achieve more than just an individual victory, and describes brightness as a setting that provokes awe and wonder, with an important indicator being the ability to heal grave/crippling injuries fully. By these definitions, Grimbright sort of matches the Midhammer tagline:

"To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the hardiest and most resolute regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Remember the power of technology and science, for though so much has been forgotten, yet more shall be learned and re-learned. Hold close to your heart the promise of progress and understanding, for in the twinkling dawn of the future there is still hope. There is no true peace amongst the stars, yet it is not all carnage and slaughter. Thirsting gods laugh as they send their minions to work evil, but their laughter is drowned out by the defiant battle cry of the loyal - for the Emperor! His Will be done!"

But it's a loose fit. As always, the tone of 40k shifts depending on if you're talking about the Guard or the Space Marines, or just living on an Agri-, Feudal or Hiveworld. Still, I think it's obvious that a setting would be more Noble for having living Primarchs in it. More importantly, the OP describes the intended tone as between the Grimdark 40k and the Noblebright Brighthammer - basically neutral. I would actually encourage a review of that thread, a lot of fun ideas were thrown around that seem to have been dropped in this draft. I particularly like what they did to Magnus - the Emperor forgave him but reiterated that he was forbidden from using psychic powers, an order the Thousand Sons have followed long after everyone else reinstated their Librarius, waiting for the Emperor to come back and rescind the order Himself.

Honestly, all told, I think there's more bad than good in this draft. It might be a bit much to just nuke it all, but it's definitely time to explore alternate ideas.--Blowthemandown (talk) 23:13, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Current Plans for this Page

Here is what I have planned for the MidHammer 40k drafts page. These are the categories that I have most of my ideas for, and the things i want to embellish.

• Story about "Imperium Secundus" and what its like
  • currently in the works
• Embellish the Final flight of The Maiden of Espandor
• A section on The Astra Militarum and Segmentii Militarum
  • A lot of these Warhammer Alt-Histories become Space Marine Wanks, i want this world to be the opposite
  • Yeah the Legions are mostly intact, which means they are spread out even thinner.
  • The Imperial Gaurd needs to essentially be made from scratch.
  • I want each segmentum primarch to be leading armies suited to complement the primarch's fighting style and character.
• Flesh out The Little Horus Heresy
  • The Little Horus Heresy needs to be mentally and spiritually devastating to Horus, but it has the risk of being corny
• A Section on Royum Ultramar
  • The Pseudo-Independent Kingdom of Ultramar is my pet project, and i have a lot of ideas of what its like,
• More embellishment on the Black Eutenites.
• More With the Eldar and The T'au
  • Since Chaos is the weakest faction in MidHammer, The Eldar T'au need to be more agressive,
  • I want to set up some events on the road to M40 that have the Eldar/T'au Block angling itself as a rival power
• Develop Segmentum Tempestus

Things I need help Fleshing out

I don't have as many ideas on these topics, if anyone has some ideas, they would be welcome.

• Orks
  • I know they are important, but i dont have any specific ideas or events.
• Macharian Crusade
  • I know that Macharius still goes on his great crusade, conquers a whole swath of worlds
  • I also know that the Regency council intervene in the High Lords/Macharius spat, advocating for the creation of "Grand Macharia" as an independent (ie Vassal) state.
  • What i'm less sure about is what that realm looks like and what it does after the crusade
• T'au
  • I want the tau to be an agressive counter-imperium, and the Eldar's pitbull, but outside of that, im not sure.
• Events between The Lorgar Letdown and M45
• Astartes Chapters
  • The Astartes Chapters need to be remade from scratch, a lot of the famous ones from Vanilla shouldn't exist. I might eventually make a new page for this reason.
• Necrons
  • Ultimately the Imperium needs to be gearing up for final war with these guys, what they are doing in the meantime i don't know
  • What's Trayzon doing? The Flayed ones? the Silent King?
• The Loyalist Legions
  • I dont really have many ideas for the Loyalist legions and their Primarchs, what they are up to
  • Especially the Blood Angels and sanguinius.
• Ideas for IG and SG armies.
  • I want these to be more unique and varied than vanilla hammer, not just cadians. These are going to be the Imperium's first responders until Sanguinius and Horus bring the Big guns.
• Mechanicus
  • How are they different in this world?
• The Eldar Craftworlds and Ynnari
  • How do these factions differ from vanilla counterparts, and how do they take advantage of a safe webway?
• Ideas for the black crusades
  • The Black Crusades should be reversed
    • in Vanilla The Imperium "Wins" each black crusade with each Pyrrhic victory costing more precious resources, equipment, and manpower
    • So in MidHammer, Lorgar for the most part "wins" every black crusade and obtains what he is going after, but it costs chaos more than it gains
    • Lorgar's black crusades unravel chaos and with each costly success, the willingness of the Ruinous powers to cooperate diminishes, to the point where in the later black crusades they are actively undermining it.
• Malal
  • Malal and his Raven Boy are up to no good. How?
  • Malal has a demon prince Primarch and his perfectly intact untouched legion. Pretty dangerous assets
• Ideas for The Great Treachery.
  • I know how the Treachery starts, and i know how it ends. I need some help with the middle.
• The Inquisition
  • They should be much smaller in both scope and size in this universe.

Rough Shape of Things to Come

I mentioned where i thought this grimbright future was going so here is a rough idea of what i was thinking. (ive given you the super rough summary for brevity/spoilers, can create page for full thing if you want)

Pre Epochs: age of Old Ones, War in Heaven

• Epoch 1: The Age of Eldar (ending with the Birth of Slaanesh)
• Epoch 2(M15-M25): the Age of Man
  • The Age of Terra and Dark age of Technology
• Epoch 3 (M25-M35): The False Age of Chaos
  • The Timeline starts to diverge from vanilla around M30
  • Chaos isn't defeated by M35, its more like Chaos' Manzikert/Lepanto. Still formidable but its power is clearly declining
• Epoch 4 (M35-M45): The Second Age of Eldar/Age of T'au
  • Imperium starts its decline around M40/41 with the birth of Ynnead (which in this universe is a bad thing)
  • The Eldar's second wind through Ynnari
  • T'au conquers huge swaths of collapsing Imperium
  • Tzeentch is "killed" Emperor is beginning to fully heal
  • Tau break free of Eldar control towards the end
  • Chaos "sick man" of the galaxy, Malal gaining strength
• Epoch 5 (M45-M60) "The Age of Malal"
  • The age of anti-chaos. Tyranids and Greenskins merge, most of the galaxy consumed.
  • Major powers now rump forms, fight devastating war for survival
  • 4 of the primarchs die, most of the "imperium" as we know it is gone
  • War so bad even two C'tan die fighting tyrannids
  • All Chaos gods die except Slaanesh
  • The Aurelian is "pseudo killed (think Khaine)" defeating Malal
• Epoch 6 (M60-M70) The Last War in Heaven
  • Final Battle of C'tan vs rest of galaxy
  • Humanity, T'au, Kroot, and Galaxy nearly unrecognizable from 30k
  • Last Chaos gods die, redeemed Demon primarchs die as well
  • Emperor dies and unites with Shattered Aurelian to govern the Warp.
  • All but 3 Primarchs survive to the end of the War in Heaven
  • C'tan defeated, but Eldar and T'au are now extinct
• Epoch 7 (M70): The Second Age of Man
  • This is where The Emperor is trying to reach, this is the "Grimbright end"

WH40k is Epoch 3 and 4, its barely even the End of The Beginning. So while things might be doing "reasonably" well for The Imperium now (its still not great), that's because the actual fights are yet to come. The "Forces of Good" will need everyounce of strength they have to face off against the true threats to the Milky Way.

So in the eye of an omniscient reader, the future is "bright" because yeah, humanity wins in the end. But at the scale we are talking there is non-stop misery and bitter fighting for at least 30,000 years, thats 6 times the distance between the present day and the beginning of recorded history. Taking comfort in the second age of man, would be like trying to comfort a shivering lonely Cro-Magnon with "hey dont worry, in 40,000 years, your distant descendants will be fat and stare at colored lights all day." So yes, humanity can win in the end, it has achievable goals, but the distance between misery and victory are absurdly vast. --Wammnebu (talk) 17:04, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Artwork Question

I created a gallery on my deviant art with all of the artwork Ive been working on. Can I put a link to it on the page, or should I upload all of the images?--Wammnebu (talk) 04:54, 5 June 2020 (UTC)