Talk:MidHammer 40,000

OK...so what's the difference between this and Nobledark Imperium? Pilgrim of Terra (talk)

In theory, this is not full nobledark. The possibility of a full recovery for the Imperium is still there if it lasts long enough for the Emperor to heal, which doesn't seem a long, distant possibility, but a very achievable goal.--Alumno Alumno (talk) 07:48, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

My, my, Nobledark has its own pages on this site. We are possibly not talking about the same thing. The Emprah is perfectly fine and being an active ruler in NI, and the 18 Primarchs all remained loyal. Pilgrim of Terra (talk)

Ups, you're right. Well, MH still has enough things to differenciate itself from BrightHammer. MidHammer's current situation is grimm, but it's not catastrophic, and the Imperium has a clear and achievable goal, as well as the means to reach it without devolving into full grimdark. --Alumno Alumno (talk) 06:33, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Xenos and their role in the galaxy

Considering the Emperor never really went anywhere, how is imperial policy regarding xenos? Eldar are a relatively easy species to deal with, as well as orks and nids (just shoot them until they are no more). But what about necrons? The Emperor obviously has to know something about them, as his fight with the Void Dragon still happened. How could the Imperium react to the existence of Necrons? Would they be exterminated on sight, or would the Imperium try to deal with some of the more reasonable dynasties? How would the primarchs (and especially Ferrus "necrodermis-arms" Manus to them?

And while we're at it, what about the Tau? They are obviously a much lesser threat than they are in regular 40k, both on the militar and the ideological aspects. Would the Emperor try to assimilate them and their other servient species? --Alumno Alumno (talk) 08:48, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

"The Emperor obviously has to know something about them, as his fight with the Void Dragon still happened. How could the Imperium react to the existence of Necrons? " -Alumno Alumno

Since the LL was a dud, perhaps at some point the Void Dragon re-awakens (Maybe M41?) along with several Necron Hiveworlds. Or something Necron Related could be this universe's War of The Beast. The War of The Beast likely wouldn't have had nearly the same impact as it does in vanillahammer without it seeming forced. Not only because You still have so many legions to fight it (Led by none other than Horus Lupercal), but because so much of the War of The Beast's strength came less from the orks than from the Imperium's incompetent reaction to it. High Lords of Terra complacency, Mars, Ecclesiarchy, and The Inquisition playing The War of The Beast against each other, SM chapter politics, the Inquisition, Ecclesiarchy, and Mars using the Imperial Navy as a pawn for their own political schemes all led to the War of The Beast Spiraling out of control. Grimbright Imperium would make quick work of the War of The Beast, so it needs an scaled opponent to match its newfound competence. --Wammnebu (talk)

We could still have a War of the Beast, but instead of the Beast being a massive ork warlord, he could be a massive ork warboy who's also a weirdboy. He could also try to get into the Webway using WAAAAAGH energies and there's a massive fight to try to stop the orks from entering Terra from the inside instead of from orbit. --Alumno Alumno (talk) 17:46, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Human Webway Project.

What about the Human Webway Project? Magnus never really broke it down in this version, so it might sill be there. With the Emperor taking his holy time to recover, it would be up to Magnus (and the Eldar if they want to reach some sort of deal) to do it. Does Lorgar know about the Webway project, and if he does, what can he do to twart it? --Alumno Alumno (talk) 09:13, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

So how about this: What if the Project is still around, but the Eldar got spooked by The Lorgar Letdown, so they work together to keep mankind's use limited. Certain approved groups of Imperial forces are permitted through the webway, with their presence sanctioned by at least one of the craftworlds. Humanity is also restricted to certain gates and certain paths, at the risk of provoking a full Eldar/Human war. So The Webway project still exists, but it is essentially an emergency channel, and further development is on a 10,000 year hiatus until The Emperor has fully recovered. For the most part, The Imperium is still heavily dependent on Warp Travel and the Astronomicon. --Wammnebu (talk) 12:00, 15 March 2019 (EST)

Do we even have Primaris Marines?

We do have the Emperor still active, so possible Space Marine upgrades designed by the Emperor Himself are not out of the question. It would definitiely take a form other than Cawl's designs, but we could still have Upgraded Space Marines. --Alumno Alumno (talk) 09:19, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

I'd postulate Primaris are implemented maybe a little faster, since Big E can speak and offer tidbits. As well, Primarchs are alive, and such. That's gotta count for something. Cawl probably can get shit done a lot easier. --User:Washington001; 10:47, 8 Jan 2019 (EST)

They would have to do something like The Primaris right? Afterall without it, Primarchs like Magnus, Corax, and Fulgrim would all be without sons soon. What I want to know is what Russ's thoughts would be. Would he accept the Primaris Marines as a second chance? Or would he detest the very idea and decide that the galaxy would be better off with his line dead? --Wammnebu 4:41 March 14 2019 EST

Russ would probably hate the idea, since it reminds him too much to his failure to keep his sons in check, plus the Thousand Sons would use primaris extensively, increasing the regret effect. Maybe there could be specific primaris individuals with Russ' geneseed, but mostly as an special ops units and never reaching even a hundred. Also, what's with the sudden interest in MH? Did something happen? --Alumno Alumno (talk) 17:33, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

It could be that Primaris manages to get Russ a little group back together, like 50 ish Marines. It'd be hard to make even a single one of course, and they wouldn't have the history of the chapter... But, well, there'd be a few. -Washington001 14:00 Mar 20 19

That would make sense, 50 "Companions of The Wolfhunter." The Primaris would likely be focusing on getting the Legions of Fulgrim, Sanguinius, and Magnus back to strength anyways. So The Wolf would be less of a priority.

--Wammnebu (talk) 15:02, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

How do the Grey Knights work in this?

With Lorgar as the archtraitor, the menace of daemon incursions is still as dangerous (if not even more dangerous) than in regular 40k. As such, the need for a specialized anti-daemon force is still there. Do we still have Grey Knights, or are the regular legions enough to deal with them? Also, are they hidden from the rest of the Imperium? The Emperor is still active, so I don't see why they should be. --Alumno Alumno (talk) 09:21, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

The Grey Knights are probably a more specialized anti daemon organization/division of the Ordo Malleus, which you wouldn't go to for most other jobs if the dedicated chapters were available. As well, y'know, all psyker chapter, probably associates with Thousand Sons, etc. Also, I'd like to point out:GK are less well equipped, since they don't really deserve their own FW, and are probably not a external legion. -- Washington001; 10:52, 8 Jan 2019 (EST)

This is probably where the Codex Astartes/Horus Legions system existing side by side would work in the Imperium's Advantage. The Chapters would have the ability to create more specialized missions since the defense of the Imperium would be taken care of by the legions/ig. A lot of the work of The Grey Knights and The Inquisition would be done by Chapters like The Exorcists who specialize in these things. Maybe it could get even more specialized (have a chapter that deals specifically against Slaaneshi demons for instance). The Inquisition probably is a lot smaller and looks more like Malcador's original vision for it, not the giant bloated mass of crazy gestapo it is in Vanillahamer. --Wammnebu (talk) 11:55, 15 March 2019 (EST)

Imperial Guard/Imperial Auxilia

The 40k Imperial Guard as we know it appeared when it became clear that the remaining legions weren't enough to protect the Imperium as they were, so they took the original Auxilia and turned it into the Astra Militarum. In MidHammer, the state of the legions is much better than in regular 40k, so how would the Imperial Auxilia look like? Maybe it wouldn't need to be as massive as the IG, but instead becoming some sort of elite force, much better prepared and trained than the Guard, but not nearly as numerous. They would be cheaper to mantain and deploy than Astartes, so they could still be very useful for the Imperium. --Alumno Alumno (talk) 09:38, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

IMO, AM is the warhammer to the SML's dagger. They have a large amount of force, a massive number of ships, and a lot of grit. Legions, while pretty fuckin big, ain't as big as the AM. As well, the SMLs are probably subdivided a little to make manuvering such large forces easier. -- Washington001; 10:54, 8 Jan 2019 (EST)

Yes the SM are more intact than they are in Vanillahammer, but its still bad. Where the lore stands now The Imperium is short at least 6 (XX, IV, XII, XVII, VI, XIV) and a Half (Luther's Dark Angels) Legions, not including casualties to the other Legions. That's over a third of the Legio Astartes total Strength. (As an aside, a third is actually the amount of Angels in Catholic Angelology that are believed to have joined Satan in rebelling against God, So that's a good number). So the Imperium is probably going to call on the IA/IG for help, even if they dont need them as much. Plus the Emperor himself wanted to eventually replace the Space Marines once the great crusade was done anyways, the LL probably accelerated this.

The real problem for the Imperial Guard is that a lot of their unique armies are a result of the Horus Heresy and later events where the Imperial Guard had to pick up the flak for the lack of SM. So Groups like the Vostroyans wouldn't exist. So The Imperial Guard would need to be rebuilt from scratch in this world to ensure it doesn't just become generic Cadians.

I know it was suggested that the remaining loyal primarchs govern the Imperium in Sectors, so how about we take advantage of that and let each Primarch design their own Segmentum Guard that complements the fighting style of their Space Marine Legions and their own personality. The "Imperial Guard" would then be recruited from Empire wide and could be more ornate elaborate versions of Cadia. Example: Phoenecia Militarum: Super Vostroyans. Meticulously specialized with artisan weapons. Sanguines Militarum: Drop Troopers that stay as far away from the Blood Angels as possible. Rogales Militarum: Someone has to man all those forts. etc. --Wammnebu (talk) 11:39, March 15 2019 (EST)

Wouldn't that contradict the point of the Codex Astartes? If the militar power of the Imperium is still squarely in the hads of primarches/astartes, what's the point of dividing the legions in the first place? It would be just changing one power for another. --Alumno Alumno (talk) 17:37, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I believe it was mentioned on the page that that the Legions and Codex are side by side. Which are legions and which are astartes to be based on the primarch's opinion on the codex (ie Khan likes it, Horus doesn't).

Feudal systems are nothing if not redundant. Redundant systems make sense given the size and distance the Imperium is operating on. If the primarchs are ruling the segmentums, then they would be governing their own little microimperium. Which means they would need to both provide for the defense of the realm as well as still have their legions available for Horus when he calls a crusade. Wammnebu (talk) 20:04, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Ecclesiarchy and the Imperial Cult

With Lorgar, the most religious and zealous of the primarchs, leading the heresy, it might be safe to assume that the Imperial Cult and the rest of his works were banned and persecuted. In these circumnstances, the Imperium simply never created the Ecclesiarchy as an organization. Do we have Sisters of Battle? How do we justify their creation without the Ecclesiarchy? --Alumno Alumno (talk) 09:41, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

So I have an idea for how to do Religion/Imperial Cult, I Put it on the main Midhammer 40K Page (Should i put it here instead?). Since Sanguinius is still alive and kicking, Gulliman died in the Lorgar Letdown instead. Ultramarines take over duties as Sad Marines from the Blood Angels, complete with their own Grimbright version of The Black Rage (the Golden Sorrow), and Sanguinor (The Aurellian). Ultramar turns into Space Bretonia complete with Lady of The Lake, Noble Houses, and Grail Pilgrims. So now rather than treating the Codex Astartes almost like a religious Text, it is a religious text. And The Ultramarines are now the High Priests of his cult. Sisters of Battle are part of a cult that takes special devotion to Gullimom. Terra is a Holy Seat. But it is not actually the True Capital of the Ecclesiarchy (that would be "First among Thirteen" Espandor in the Pseudo-Independent Kingdom of Ultramar). Even then Calth, Maccragge, Nova Thulium, Sotha, Arda, Prandium, Gantz, Saramanth, Uldregor, Laphis, and Ophelia are also Holy Seats, so there is much less capacity for the Spiritual Liege to go Vandire.

Additionally, because The Empire realized that forcing the Imperium to pretend that Chaos didnt exist was a bad idea, that trying to suppress Mankind's religious instincts just got Lorgar, and that Believing in the Imperial Truth doesn't necessarily save you from falling to the ruinous powers (Perturabo, Horus' close call). The Primarchs (Khan, Magnus, Vulkan, and Fulgrim in particular) were able to convince The Emperor that Using him as a focal point for devotion actually moved Humanity forward as a psychic race, and for now it would be better to have mankind's religious instincts under his careful surveillance. Rather than becoming Fanatical Theocracy. Grimbright Imperium is a secular state with multiple "accepted" cults. Ultramar is a Theocracy, but Ultramar is independent, and is hobbled by its own Fragmented codex. Vulkan's Promethean Cult, and The Cult Mechanicus (which has developed followers outside of the Mechanicus regions) live alongside the Aurelian cult and the Imperial Truth. Wammnebu 4:33 March 14 2019 (EST)

I do believe there would be no place for any imperial cult in a post Lorgar Letdown Imperium. Everyone saw that the most fervant primarch and the staunchest defender of the Emperor as a God ended up becoming the most dangerous individual ever, and thus everything remotely asociated with him would be purged, included the Imperial Cult and the Lectitio Divinatus. Maybe there could be a massive campaign to inform and demistify the daemonic and religious side of the war, while also squarely condeming it. And with the Emperor still around, he could pretty much confirm this, so there's no chance for misinterpreting things. --Alumno Alumno (talk) 17:57, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I agree about that there is no place for A crazy theocracy in the Grimbright, post LL world. Howver I'm a little more skeptical on the complete lack of religion for a couple of reasons:

• In the Garro books it mentions The Soldiers practicing a folk belief in the God-Emperor. And Im pretty sure that it had nothing to do with Lorgar. So unless the Imperium goes through a purge of it (maybe send "good" curze), and the Grimbright Imperium is a Fanatic Anti-Theocracy, with The Inquisition taking more from The KGB than The SS, my guess is some sort of Emperor related religion would continue.
  • It might not have the same organization that Lorgar created, which would make it significantly less grimdark.
• There is even less place for Imperial Truth. Unless we are drasticly changing the preheresy timeline, The Council of Nikea and its after affects still happen.
• The Loyalist primarchs likely wont play ball.
  • As you mentioned with Horus being mad about Big E lying to him, he certainly wouldn't entertain going back to The Imperial Truth,
  • Magnus likely despises the Imperial Truth for destroying his reputation, his legion, and his homeworld, ditto for Leman,
  • Yes, Lorgar destroyed everything, but very few of the traitors actually believed in him, or found his arguments convincing. Betraying the Imperium for other reasons.
  • Khan never supported the Imperial Truth anyways.
  • It clearly doesn't work since the main Traitors were also major adherents such as Perturabo and (Curze/Corax).
  • Primarchs like Mortarion were pushed away by the imperial Truth.
  • Bobby G in Vanilla Hammer drops the imperial truth when he wakes up.
• The Emperor is not really in a position to do anything about it right now. Yes he is healing, but he is still weak.
  • Additionally the Emperor has made bargains on religion before out of necessity
• We aren't going to throw away all of that cool St Celestine, SoB, baroque stuff are we? that would be sad.
• Disinformation campaigns only go so far in a spread-thin imperium that still relies on relative autonomy and warp-travel.

So if the Primarchs really are governing the Imperium, what I think would happen is you have some religions that are tolerated but possibly harassed. Rather than the Ecclesiarchy being the only religion, there are several religions and a modified form of the imperial truth existing side by side. An Softer form of the Imperial Cult could try to get something like the Deal the Emperor gave the Mechanicus, where the Emperor is not a god, but he's a really powerful entity you should obey without question. --Wammnebu (talk) 21:40, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

So what about something like This. Post LL, the Loyalist Primarchs get together, redact the Council of Nikea, and make a heavily revised Imperial Truth. So rather than the Militant Atheism of the Imperial Truth, they offer a softer "Yeah, chaos exists, but listen to The NOTGod Emperor first." As far as non-Ruinous Powers religion is concerned, they kick the can down the road till Big E wakes up. Whether or not religion is fostered or persecuted they leave up to local administrations that don't cause trouble.

--Wammnebu (talk) 22:45, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Curze as a Malal follower?

I've seen in the thread that Curze should not be undivided, but instead a Malal follower that fights against everything and everyone. How would it work? --Alumno Alumno (talk) 05:29, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

How about this? The Cabal in this universe visits Curze. Curze was already involved in their schemes to kill Vulkan in Vannilahammer anyways. They try to play Curze's own knowledge of the Future against the Imperium hoping to convince him that this was necessary. Curze becomes a willing agent but ultimately fails to kill Vulkan, and by that time the Lorgar Letdown is over. At some point in the future Curze becomes convinced that the Cabal itself is a tool of the Ruinous powers, and that the only true way to kill evil is to join with an entity that makes itself known to Curze. --Wammnebu 4:33 March 14 2019 (EST)

I thought it would have been more fitting for Kurze just end up more and more dissapointed in everything, rather than being manipulated. He sees the slaughter he has to do in the name of the Emperor and joins the traitors. But when he sees the traitors' actions are as bloody as the loyalists' during the Great Crusade, he just decides everyone is wrong and fights both sides. Maybe he even tries to carve a small empire for himself, but because he's Kurze, he ends up the MidHammer equivalent of North Korea. Maybe he ends up worshiping Malal as a result of his desire to destroy both sides of the conflict, though if that were the case he wouldn't be able to create an empire, since selfdestruction is Malal's theme. --Alumno Alumno (talk) 17:42, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Alternatively, what might be interesting would be to have Corax and Curze switch places. Corax reluctantly joins the Traiters for some reason. Either he gets tricked into it by the XX^th or ruinous powers. He could also form a pact with the ruinous powers (like say Nurgle) for protection or to repair his destroyed legion. Or he just loses his sh## after so much of his legion is massacred.

Meanwhile, Konrad Curze could slowly have a change of heart following the events of the LL. Maybe between watching what happened to his fellow Angry bois (Angron, Mortarion) become in their fall to Chaos and seeing Corax turn into a monster like him forces Curze into some introspection. Starts to apply his own principles against himself. Then to top it all off, his own visions of the future start to clear up, because the timeline has changed. Im not saying he completely loses his edge, just less Spawn, and more Frank Miller's Daredevil.

--Wammnebu (talk) 23:01, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

How would Horus not fall?

The key element from MH is that Lorgar doesn't manage to corrupt Horus, and this completely changes the plans for Chaos. How could we justify Horus not falling? Maybe he could still be stabbed by the Anathame and see the Chaos God's visions, but instead of instantly getting corrupted, he goes straight to Terra to ask the Emperor personally about it. They have a heated argument, in which the Emperor admits some of his own misjudgements, and Horus sees that his father is not an all powerful figure he thought, thus keeping his inferiority complex from kicking in and making him turn. This event maybe accelerates Lorgar's plans, thus having no time to try and corrupt more primarches. --Alumno Alumno (talk) 17:51, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Another option could be to have one of his sons take the hit for him. That Son (Amurael, Abbaddon, Falkus, etc) could eventually rebel, taking a chunk of Horus' legion with him (Not Fallen Angels size, but still significant). Then Horus's experience in the Heresy can mirror his father's as he comes to terms with the betrayal and having to kill one of his own sons. Additionally you saddle Horus with the Survivor's guilt of knowing that blade was meant for him, and that while his son betrayed him, he could never truly fault him.

--Wammnebu (talk) 18:56, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Idea: The Little Horus Heresy

Whether it was a case of Mistaken identity or defending the Primarch, Horus Aximand was the one who was stabbed with the Anathame blade instead of Horus Lupercal. Between Horus Aximand and Lorgar, they were able to Corrupt the Mournival, Mutiny and Imprison Horus to bring to Lorgar for Corruption. Horus eventually escapes, and has to kill all of his traitor legionaries. So when he finally does find out about the Anatheme Blade and how this whole mess could have been avoided (and Little Horus could have been saved), he gets really mad at Big E. At the same time his hatred of chaos outweighs the anger, and as you mentioned, it keeps his inferiority complex from kicking in (partially because he sees what Lil' Horus' inferiority complex does to him). --Wammnebu (talk) 18:29, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

The page is in need of a cleanup

I'm not an admin or an editing expert, but the main page has suddenly become very crowded with suggestions and discussions that probably should be in the talk page. Otherwise, the main page will be too cluttered to get anything done. Should all of the suggestions be moved here? --Alumno Alumno (talk) 18:41, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

That is probably my fault. All of the [suggestions] are mine, because I was really excited about the concept and wanted to share what I was thinking. I didn't want to impose them on the page.

I can move most of it to the discussion page here later today/tomorrow if you would like. Sorry about that. Wammnebu (talk) 19:51, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Fixed. I put all of my suggestions here. It should be clean now.

--Wammnebu (talk) 18:33, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Angron The Servant of Nurgle

Rather than give Angron to Khorne, I think he would be more interesting if we gave him to Nurgle. Nurgle could offer to cure Angron of his butcher's nails either through some weird twisted way, or by forcing his captive gf Isha to do it. It's not like Papa Nurgle could be any worse of a dad than any of Angron's other "fathers." Plus it makes his Chapter Legion more appropriate. The "World Eaters" could now represent the fungi and flesh eating diseases he carries around with him. Maybe he and his Legion walk around with massive pus-filled tumors where their implants used to be, and big grins on their faces.

--Wammnebu (talk) 20:53, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Idea for Dorn

So Here is my suggestion for Rogal Dorn.

In Vanillahammer, Dorn seems to have a penchant for self-flagellation, callousness, and abandoning posts out of despair. So my idea is that we build on that, and make dorn similar to Midhammer Russ. In this universe, the only thing he really loses in The Lorgar Letdown is his pride. There is a scenario similar to the Iron Cage, but instead of losing ²/₃ of his legion, he really loses only about 20-25% max. However, the main casualty of this iron cage is That Rogal Dorn is kept away from Terra, long enough for Alpharius/Omegon to wound the emperor.

Dorn takes this humiliation personally, resigns from post as praetorian, and eventually decides that to make up for his failure, he would do what Dorn does best, fortify the Imperium for any future threat.

Dorn takes command of the Segmentum Tempestus (where Inwit is) and over 8000 years and transformed it into a Turtler's wet dream.

• Its a miserable bleak existence for everyone in Rogal's Hermit Kingdom, which is now to WH Cadia what Cadia is to Castel Del Monte.
• Rather than Dorn abandoning his Legion to go sulk or dress as a centurion around The Emperor or whatever, The Imperial Fists Legion abandons Dorn. Sigismund and Kantor decide they would rather crusade with Horus and defend with Khan than play Lego's with Dad.
• Dorn offers a reason for the universe to be grimbright because the dystopian misery of The Tempestus comes with the benefit of expecting the worst for 8 mellennia.
• When The Tyrannids finally do Show up in The Tempestus Segmentum, its less grimdark Starship Troopers and more like this scene from Tremors.

--Wammnebu (talk) 18:43, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

Corax and Curze

So if The Grimbright Universe has a Malal follower, how about if Corvus Corax and Curze Switch places. Konrad Curze becomes a little less Grimdark in fitting with the setting, while Corvus Corax ultimately becomes an unwitting demon prince of Malal/Necoho.

Reasoning for Good Boy Curze:

1. His visions clear up since WH40k cant actually happen anymore

• not saying he isn't still haunted by visions, im suggesting that since he sees the worst possible future, he notices that his visions have gotten significantly less grimdark.

1. Everyone is considerably less smug now, so that's a plus for him.
2. Corax goes crazy leading to him feeling better about himself.
3. Doesnt get the Opportunity to torture Vulkan so he is still on speaking terms with him.
4. Can take over Russ Duties as The Emperor's Executioner and be given a more productive outlet.
5. Post LL, Everyone is going to be on the lookout for stability of Primarchs. So Magnus, Sanguinius, Fulgrim and Horus could start trying to help him out.

• plus since they dont have to pretend that Chaos and Magick doesnt exist anymore post LL, so they can do something to help him.

1. Reformed Curze would be the Posterboy for Grimbright - you can't change the Fate of the Universe, but you can change the fate of yourself.

Reasoning for Chaotic Neutral Corax

1. That's kind of what he is already now.
2. Corax was a fervent believer in The Imperial Truth. Imperial Truth pretty easily lends itself to Malal/Necoho worship.
3. The idea of chaos demons running from giant Raven Demons is pretty cool.
4. Currently Corax doesn't have much to do.
5. Adds some grimdark to Chaos: Is even the Eye of Terror safe?

What do y'all think?

--Wammnebu (talk) 20:53, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

What about Omegon?

So it's stated that Alpharius is now a demon prince of Tzeentch. But what about his Brother Omegon? Is he a traitor too? Is he Loyal and the twins split ways? Is he treacherously loyal while Alpharious is Loyally Treacherous? Or is the opposite true? --Wammnebu (talk) 20:13, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

Candidates For Khorne

In the interest of making the Midhammer different from Vanillahammer, I suggest we take Angron for Khorne off of the table.

So with that in mind here are some of my thoughts for potential picks for Khaine:

Rogal Dorn

Dorn's Angery Bois got it from somewhere. Dorn can be a pretty angry and heartless person, and is more than happy to bring pain either on himself or upon others.

Pros for Khorne Dorn:

1. Since Perturabo joins Slaanesh, and since Khaine hates Slaanesh, and Dorn hates Perturabo, its a pretty good combination.
2. Angry Dorn has his Black Templars

Cons for Khorne Dorn

1. Roboutean Heresy already did it
2. Doesn't really take advantage of Dorn's love of Architecture
   1. unless of course Dorn Builds Khorne a Citadel of Bones.

Mortarion

Mortarion's silent murderers and ruthlessly tough warriors fit Khorne's overall approach

Pros for Khornate Mortarion:

1. Hates Psykers
2. Death Guard are experts in mass murder
3. Like Khorne, indiscriminate dispensers of murder
4. Death Guard is a pretty good name for warriors of Khorne
5. DG's Great Crusade and pre great crusade MO is a much better fit for Khorne than Nurgle.

Cons for The Blood Gaurd:

1. Like Dorn, his anger is less obtuse and more of a silent rage (might be a plus though, show a different side of Khorne)

Konrad Curze

Curze would be a good fit for Khorne for much of the same reason that he is for Malal.

Pros for Khornate Curze:

1. Cruel but Fair, much like Khorne
2. Dislikes Schemers, like Khorne
3. Enjoys murder, like Khorne

Cons for Khornate Curze:

1. Legion likes to use Psyker abilities
2. Dislikes open combat, unlike Khorne
3. Curze + Khorne = Judge Death

The Lion El'Johnson

Man with a lot of anger issues, could be tipped over the edge with the Fallen and accusations of his treachery

Pros for Khornate Lion

1. Giant Angry Lion Demon Prince
2. Enjoys killing Demonbeasts on Calliban
3. The Fallen could provoke him to rage
4. Is a good leader, but is also more prone to rage than others
5. Gets to be Called "The Lion of Khorne" instead of "El'Johnson"

Cons for the Lion of Khorne

1. The Imperium loses a good leader
2. Entire Dark Angels legion falls to chaos
3. Khorne only gets half of a legion (but i guess he already got the spacewolves too...)
4. Dark Angels like using Psykers

no one

Not an ironic Post. What if Khorne didn't actually get a traitor primarch in The Lorgar Letdown? To his rage. Was supposed to get Leman Russ, but failed.

Pros for Khorne not getting a primarch:

1. Khorne still kind of has a legion in the Space Wolves
2. Highlights the overall failure of The LL, and the difference between MH and VH
3. Could be given extras from other legions to compensate
4. could eventually be given another major leader as his demon prince
   1. Examples include: Goge Vandire, Fyodor Karamazov, Mecharius, Cawl, Bile, Sigismund, Zso, Abbadon, Yarrick, one of The Ultramarines, etc
5. Perhaps finds his champion in another race entirely. Maybe he offers Craftworld Saim-Hann or one of the Exodites his protection from Slaanesh in exchange for loyalty?

Cons for Khorne not getting a Primarch:

1. Not really fair to Khornates
2. Makes Imperium too powerful.

Personally I'm Partial to Mortarion or No One.

Mortarion because its a good fit for the character and The Legion.

No one because I think it opens up a lot of unique and creative ways to change the Warhammer mythos, and it leaves opportunities for Khorne to try something in the future.

--Wammnebu (talk) 20:37, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

Name for the Lorgar Letdown

Since we cant have all of the in-universe accounts refer to this event as "The Lorgar Letdown" I propose that the in-universe term should be something like the following:

• The Treachery of Lorgar
• The Urizen Betrayal
• The Great Treachery
• The Betrayal
• The Desolation of Alpharius
• The Great Unraveling
• The Great Destruction
• The Urizen Uprising
• The Four-Times Treachery

Giving the Lorgar Letdown an overblown name highlights the naivete and good fortune of this universe. Similar to how everyone called World War I The Great War or The War to End All Wars, and based their philosophies around the idea that The Great War was as bad as humanity could get. The Term for the Lorgar Letdown should be grandiose and exaggerated. Everyone involved should agree that this was the absolute worst thing to ever happen, and the Imperium was tried and tested. Thats what makes his universe grimbright: We, the readers, know that it could be so much worse, but all of the characters involved (except maybe Curze) don't know that. Additionally the fact that they can think this is bad and still have the military and industrial capacity to over-correct is one of the reasons this universe has the chance to turn out better.

We will also need new terms for other aspects of the universe, such as:

• What do the Forces of Chaos Call the LL?
• What do the Forces of Chaos call Lorgar instead of Heresiarch?
• What do the CSM call The Emperor (Since Corpse-Emperor doesn't make much sense)?

--Wammnebu (talk) 15:38, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

Tone and Consequences of The Lorgar Letdown

In order to make sure the Lorgar Letdown isn't too anemic, We need to give Lorgar Legacy a somewhat different tone from The Horus Hersey

Perhaps the Lorgar Letdown does not permanently cripple The Administrative (The Emperor and Primarchs) or Military (Legions, Warmaster) capacity of the Imperium, but it should damage everything else.The Lorgar Letdown should leave deep irrevocable scars on the Imperium that are still felt 10,000 years later. So while damage to the Emperor and The Primarchs would be minimal, everything else is fair game.

Here are some of my ideas for the Consequences for the Lorgar Letdown:

• Alpharius performs a great terrorist attack on Terra, leaving billions dead and the palace in ruins.
• The Eldar block Humanity out of Webway Travel, so while a new Eye of Terror wont form, The Webway is off limits until the emperor heals
• Terra, Chemos, Deliverance, Prospero, Maccragge, Luna, and Calliban are all Death Worlds, and require heavy terraforming.
• The Luna Wolves, Emperor's Children, and Thousand Sons legions are exterminated to the last man. Their mentally and spiritually scarred Primarchs have to start from scratch.
• The Surviving legions (Dark Angels, Sons of Horus, Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, White Scars, Salamanders, Iron Hands) all take much higher losses from battles and desertions.
• Fewer legions and Primarchs fall to chaos, but at least a 1/5^th of nearly every legion does.
• The Light of The Astronomicon goes out for at least a month or two, causing untold economic damage and causes an Imperium-wide panic.
• Ultramar takes the Brunt of the War, so rather than being the most prosperous realm in the Imperium, it is irrevocably damaged and is a pathetic shadow of its former glory.
  • Im imagining that Ultramar looks like a tiny version of Vanillahammer 40k. Petty kingdoms in pseudo autonomy squabbling amongst each other with the only unifying force being their alliance with the Imperium and a Neutered-Ecclesiarchy in The Aurelian Cult
• Alpharius is able to steal the Heart, eye, and Hand of the Emperor, putting him on life support, and giving Tzeentch some leverage in how he can inhibit the Imperium's progress.
  • So the Emperor is Goes between Guillistasis, Comatose, and Hospital bed bound for a while (meaning Magnus has to spend a lot of time on the big chair). He also needs to be watched and protected from attempts to corrupt him.
  • The Emperor can still occasionally offer advice from his infirmed state, but the Imperium is ultimately left to the Primarchs
  • Its not uncertain what is happening to the Emperor, he is recovering, just at a glacial pace.
  • The Emperor will not be leading any great crusades until around the 53^rd mellinium
  • The Adeptus Mechanicus insist on not giving the Omnissiah Mechanical Perfection made flesh inferior parts, and instead are using state of the art procedures to help him grow his missing parts back. It is the Ordo Biologis' highest duty.
  • The Emperor's well-being takes top priority so it slows Cawl's progress on Primaris
  • In order for the Emperor to truly be well again, the Imperium must steal back the Heart, Eye and Hand back from Tzeentch.
  • Aesthetically, The Emperor looks halfway between the iconic Skeleton (cyber eye, missing hand, exposed ribcage) on the Golden Throne and Glorious Emperor.
• Alpharius and Tzeentch decide to cut their losses and hijack the Lorgar Letdown, turning it from a failed battle of The Imperium against Chaos Undivided, into a successful move for Dominance in the Great Game.
  • So Tzeentch and his scheming forces are more powerful in this universe, it comes at the expense of Chaos as a whole. The other chaos gods are mad about being duped, and Lorgar has a harder time in getting his black crusades together.

So while the Imperium is greatly damaged and it will take Millennia to repair. What makes this universe different (and thus Grimbright) is that it can be repaired.

Meanwhile Chaos should be in full-fledged Grimdark mode. The 40k books seem to portray Chaos as optimistic and somewhere between Nobledark and Grimbright (in its own way). The Black Crusades end with Abbadon saying "aw shucks, The Corpse Emperor got another Pyrrhic Victory. Oh well, good hustle guys! Same time next month? Dont forget to take home all of your spoils and irreplaceable relics!" But here its the other way around. There should be an overhanging sense that their best days are behind them, that their greatest wasn't good enough, and that they are fighting not for victory but for borrowed time. --Wammnebu (talk) 16:18, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

What if The Emperor died?

Don't get me wrong, i like how the setting is developing already, I wanted to share this thought because I am trying to gauge the difference between Grimdark and Grimlight

So let's say that The Lorgar Letdown is a general failure. Except for the one big thing: Alpharius and Lorgar kill the Emperor.

Apart from that everything goes well for the Imperium.

1. only 4 primarchs turn, (Pert, Morty, Alph, and Ang), even Curze stays loyal

• So 13 Loyalist Primarchs with 11 ¹/₂ loyalist legions vs. 5 Primarchs with 5 ¹/₂ Traitor Legions (feral wolves don't count because they would't be under control).

1. Horus, Ferrus Manus, and Sanguinius live
2. Apart from the Fallen and Chaos wolves the Loyalist Legions are intact and only suffer negligible losses
3. No Mechanicum civil war
4. No Drop Site Massacre, or Drop Site Massacre is limited.
5. Prospero is devastated but survives
6. At least one of The Traitor Primarchs dies
7. Malcador Lives
8. The Webway Gate on Terra isn't compromised. No risk of second eye of terror.
9. Traitor legions suffer heavy losses.
10. Either one of the following is true

a)The Starchild Theory is true and The Emperor looks after the Imperium as a full-fledged deity

b) Thorianism is true and Perpetual Emperor eventually reincarnates sometime later.

Would this scenario be Grimdark or Grimbright? If Grimbright, how much would need to be changed to make it Grimdark?

--Wammnebu (talk) 22:27, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Constantine Valdor

In Vanillahammer, Captain General Constantine Valdor officially out-ranks all of the Primarchs but usually took a distant role from imperial governance. I dont think that would be the case here. I think he would take a more active role in this one.

Because the Emperor died (or "between life and death on the golden throne" or whatever) he, and all of the Other custodians were depressed that they had failed to protect The Emperor. Since The Emperor -despite being out of Commission- is in a much better state, in this universe he would have less depressed resignation, more righteous outrage towards the Primarchs. So rather than, "I'm sorry Emperor, I failed you! I'm going to go on a penitent crusade!" its "You f##king idiots! You almost got the Emperor killed." Rather than despair the Custodians would be motivated, because the emperor's good health and recovery depends on them.

So he is going to be less likely to leave things to benign neglect, and instead take an active role in making sure the Emperor's Primadonnas don't compromise terra, harm the emperor, or in general ruin everything again. So Valdor is going to swing his "Magisterium Maxima" around a lot more here. Not necessarily a pro-active role in policy, more like Babysitter in cheif, and step in when he thinks the primarchs are acting stupidly.

So regardless of who is the proclaimed regent or the Face of the Imperium, Constantine Valdor should be clearly the Power Behind the throne and smacking down either the High Lords of Terra or The Primarchs when they start acting against the Imperium's interests. --Wammnebu (talk) 21:42, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

Thoughts on Nature of The War and strategy in The Lorgar Letdown

One thing we absolutely cannot do is just make analogues or equivalents to the horus heresy. The actual capacity both in terms of actual military strength and military experience is greatly reduced than it is in the Horus heresy. Which means that the heretics overall strategy for The Lorgar Letdown needs to be completely overhauled.

Playing to their strengths

So looking at the Heretics we selected and who is incharge, we have:

• Mortarion
  • One of the Best in Ship combat, and orbital bombardment
  • Excellent in personal combat, and close quarters combat
  • Legion undermanned, and was mostly used to supress weaker opponents
• Angron
  • Berzerker rage
  • Good when used as the pitbull for a larger army
  • Again, tactically, someone like angron would be really easy to defeat by a good general like Gulliman, Horus, Sanguinius, or The Lion.
• Lorgar
  • Noted to be the weakest of all the primarchs in terms of military skill
  • specialty was subduing planets
  • Would be excellent in summoning demonic hosts
• Alpharius
  • Specialty is not getting into combat at all, focus on infiltration of legions and subversion
• Perturabo
  • Seige and fortifications
  • outside of seiging or fortification, Perturabo is a very poor general
  • Capable naval combatant as seen from the Battle of Phall

The lack of generals and tacticians in this traitor force is palpable. The forces that betrayed were the ones who either subdued weaker populations, or roughed up the larger ones so that the tacticians could finish them off. Everyone is a very specialist legion that is made to work for specific circumstances. Since the Loyalists have such a disproportionate number of brilliant generals and well rounded legions, going into astartes v astartes combat is too risky. So considering they don't have the manpower, equipment, or brainpower to take the legions head on. I think they would try to avoid that entirely. Instead the Great treachery should play to the strengths of the traitor legions act like The Viet Cong, and this is one giant Thramas Crusade. The conflict should be absolutely brutal in terms of civilian death and ambushes, but leave the war machine of the imperium intact (hence why its grimbright).

Namely:

• Misinformation and intelligence
• Assassination, Sabotage, inciting mutinies, and other underhanded tactics
• Augmenting their own weak manpower by encouraging deserters in the loyalists
• Wearing down loyalist legions through iron cage like scenarios.
• Subduing imperial worlds to deny them access to materials
• Use of demons to compensate for well rounded forces.
• Use of mortal auxiliaries
• Use of exterminatus and bombardment (you dont have to fight them if you can nuke them from orbit)
• Naval combat
• Ambushes and luring legions into favorable conflicts (like the iron cage, or cqc on ships)
• Demoralization campaigns
• Connections to the dark gods allowing greater ease of warp travel

The Lorgar Letdown should be a war where demoralizing atrocities are frequent, misinformation campaigns are rampant, hit and run attacks are common, paranoia inducing mutinies and sabotages are regular occurances, and planets are still scarred by the frequency of demonic incursions and civil wars.

The Lorgar Letdown will have a lot more Kriegs and a lot less Vostroyas, because there will be more planets encouraged to launch a civil war. Those uprisings would be futile ultimately, but they would mean that the Imperium wastes time fighting them and loses space marines.

Have you guys played GMT's Labyrinth:The War on Terror? If you have I'm imagining that the Traitors play similarly to the Jihadists in that game. You can't actually fight your enemy head on, so the goal is to start more fires than The Allies has the time or resources to put out, stretching their forces thin while you gain in strength. --Wammnebu (talk) 03:13, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

MidHammer Drafts

So I've been working on MidHammer Drafts for a while now, and I have a lot of stuff I was planning to import over. Currently I made it as its own page as MedHammer 40,000, as a sort of MidHammer 2E. Is this ok, or should i just move this off page? --Wammnebu (talk) 14:53, 30 May 2020 (UTC)