We need to get a picture of the mini with the grinning skull on the page. --Not LongPoster Again 18:52, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
Best close combat special character?
So I've done a little mathhammer with New Nagash vs Thorgrim from the 7th edition Dwarf book, who as far as I'm aware is one of the best (if not the best before now) combat character GW made thanks to his 8 attacks (four coming from his weaker bodyguard) 7 wounds, hatred, always wounding on 2's, causing D3 wounds and a 1+/4++ save, mathhammer wise he beats Archaon (even excluding his bodyguard which are better than Archaon's horse). Archaon causes more wounds if his weapon is unleashed but he has far less wounds and hits himself, both cause him to die faster than Thorgrim. He also beats Skarbrand (same case, causes more wounds base but has a worse save/less wounds and dies faster), now with him vs Nagash the final results came to:
Thorgrim (first round): 1.5 wounds caused after saves (1.25 get increased by D3), 4 wounds at max roll for D3. Thorgrim (second round): 0.995 wounds caused after saves (0.83 get increased by D3) 2.65 wounds at max roll for D3. Nagash: 1.05 wounds caused after saves (get increased by D3), 3.15 wounds at max roll for D3. Now I have not added thunderstomps, but even rolling only 1's for how many he gets would put Nagash ahead of Thorgrim by turn 2, and since he strikes before Thorgrim he wins mathhammer wise around turn 3 (with the lowest thunderstomp result and best D3 rolls for the both of them, otherwise wins at turn 2 with any other thunderstomp result and best D3 wounds) and I cannot think of a special character that can stand up to him in close combat in this current edition or any edition before it.
I suppose on the table it's entirely possible for that version of Thorgrim to win (since they can both cause enough wounds to kill each other on Turn 1), but it is unlikely. If I got anything wrong here feel free to correct me --Triacom (talk) 7:24, 2 September
- I tried not to include anything outside combat, if he's up against Dwarfs (and if the dwarf player is smart) Nagash isn't going to get much of a magic phase, and spending what little of a phase he's going to get on healing himself means the rest of his army is going to be suffering horribly since Nagash really needs to support it, he's also going to be extremely lucky to get into combat in the first place (he's very vulnerable to cannons blowing him off the board on turn 1 or turn 2) and if he does get into combat with a Dwarf Lord like Thorgrim, he'll be lucky to survive the unit of hammerers after killing the Lord character. If I did include magic, then it would only be appropriate to include the shooting phases, Nagash can only ever regain one wound per use of a spell or item that restores wounds to him (it's in the "resurrecting fallen warriors section") which means he's going to be riddled with shots once he reaches close combat (and that's only if he casts spells from the Lore of Vampires when he's better off casting spells from Lore of Undeath), and since both of those are so unpredictable, I left them out since he doesn't need them to win anyway. --Triacom (talk) 1:04, 8 September
No longer the best close combat character.
All right, so we've now got two new models to take on Nagash: Karl Franz Ascendant and the Glottkin, we'll start with KFA, let's look at how this plays out. One thing to clear up first, this is math hammer looking mostly at averages, if there's ever an exception it'll say so and that will only be to clear up why something would/wouldn't work, secondly unlike the previous fight of Nagash vs Thorgrim this fight will include the magic phase for Nagash, and lastly there is the omission of miscasts and dispels, both of those will be affected by models/players outside of this challenge and I want to keep it strictly to between these two. Note this also means KFA will be incapable of dispelling Nagash's spells, and for fairness's sake, Nagash will be unable to dispel Lord of Lightning.
Round 1: KFA has higher initiative so he strikes first, They're both WS7 so he'll hit with 5 of his 10 attacks, which auto-wound, 2.5 will go through the ward save (no armour saves allowed), and on average D3+1 wounds caused will take that to 7.5 wounds caused. With his current statline KFA will, on average kill Nagash when it's his turn to strike, regardless of how much Nagash increases his own Statline. The end. Nagash dies before he ever gets a chance to strike back.
Round 2: So let's say that Nagash buffs himself with magic before the fight starts, we'll give him Always Strikes First and Heroic Killing Blow. Nagash will hit with 3 of his attacks (2 of which are HKB), 2.5 of those will wound (0.333 of HKB will be 6's), KFA saves all but 1.25 of those (0.166 being HKB) and an average D3 roll will buff that to 2.5, not even close to kill KFA, who'll proceed to kill Nagash next, sadly HKB is ineffective at dealing with KFA.
Round 3: So let's buff Nagash some more, give him Always Strikes First and WS10, I10, as well as making four of his attacks Heroic Killing Blow: Nagash hits with 5.333 of his attacks (3.556 being HKB), wounds with 4.444 of those attacks (0.592 of HKB will be 6's), and KFA saves those down to 2.222 (and saves HKB down to 0.296), an average D3 roll will bring that up to 6.666, which is significantly better than the last round, but still not enough to kill KFA, who'll proceed to kill Nagash when he strikes back. Slight thing to note here, on average it will be impossible to get all four HKB attacks as well as the two Lore of Light spells Nagash needs, since Lore of Light will require 5 dice, you'll get 7 for Winds of Magic, I made an exception here to point out that HKB is ineffective for killing KFA.
Round 4: Now you might argue that there still a way for Nagash to win, if he uses the signature spell from the Lore of Shadow he can reduce KFA's WS down to 4, though this isn't an average roll we'll make a very slight exception here, if he then increases his own WS to 10 and gives himself ASF he will be able to do 6.666 wounds per turn, while only receiving 5 wounds back since this time KFA hits only 3.333 times, and causes 1.666 unsaved wounds before the D3+1, allowing him to kill KFA in two turns, though since we're giving Nagash this much of a Magic Phase it would only be appropriate to give KFA his own magic Phase, with the Lord of Lightning spell KFA will on average, cause 7 hits (on average he'll be able to continue the spell once) which then cause 2.333 wounds, and since Nagash WILL need two turns on average to kill KFA, Lord of Lightning helping him will strike Nagash dead before he ever makes it to the second round, and Lord of Lightning will happen in the Empire Players turn before the first combat happens, making sure Nagash is dead after the Close Combat phase and before he can heal himself, or it will happen after the first combat which will also kill Nagash before he can heal himself.
Unfortunately for Nagash, there's not too much else you can do to help him in combat, for an average magic roll he'll get seven dice, five of which are needed for the Lore of Light Buffs, one is needed for Lore of Shadow, and any direct damage spells you try to use with one dice on KFA will be facing a 2+ Ward save, stopping them from injuring him enough for Nagash to kill him in just the one round. If you really want to argue that Nagash would be able to stop Lord of Lightning from being cast and it's unfair because I've omitted dispels, then you'd be right, he could dispel it quite easily, though in the same way it would be unfair to only look at Nagash dispelling Lord of Lightning, the Empire Player could put all of their dice into stopping some of the Lore of Light spells (or Lore of Shadow) from happening, and if they stopped one of those spells (and on average they will) then KFA WILL kill Nagash in a single combat phase. As before, if I've missed anything, please feel free to correct me. --Triacom (talk) 2:13, 9, November.
Nagash and Dwarfs
In the End Times book, Nagash unsurped the power of....Valaya the ancestor goddess of the Dwarfs. Shouldn't that be mentioned in the article because if the dwarfs ever found out that would be the mother of all grudges. (and how he got yet another power boost in his quest to become Chaos Undivided God!)
Nagash is not number 1?
I just saw someone edit the article by making nagash the second necromancer and the second most evil character in the warhammer fantasy world....I mean I don't get the joke and there is no citation found anywhere so proofs?--TheSpoilerHeretic (talk) 08:27, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
About the using new technology against Nagash
Where was this from? that the "Lybaras brought with them new technologies (including steam-powered hot air balloons) and Lahmia brought guns from Cathay"? also what kind of guns did Lahmia bring? probably not the flinstock rifle like the empire use but still needs to be specified. And where did the steam-powered hot air balloons came from? was it from the dwarfs? because it sounds like a dwarven invention.--TheSpoilerHeretic (talk) 07:48, 30 August 2017 (UTC)