Re: The fourth paragraph. In the interests of NOT turning this page into another Drowtales, I am re-phrasing the paragraphs to reflect that there is still contention about that topic and that the reader is invited to look into it themselves. I am explicitly noting the paragraph about the Tiger tanks. Yes, German tanks were not the end-all be-all of tankdom in WWII, but there is a fair amount of research from both the period and afterwards, that literally 30 seconds with Google you can find, that state that Allied tanks did not like engaging German armor due a range of factors:
-  - Mentioning M4 rounds bouncing off the front glacis of a Panther at "turned the corner and hello!" ranges.
-  - The German tankers loved the Panther, called the Tiger the "furniture van". That said, it shrugged off the standard allied 57mm AT gun round.
-  - Mentions the issuing of the 76mm cannon and later in the war the HVAP shells that very much equalized the exchange of fire. Add to it that late war M4's had gun stabilization, and were faster, and it's no wonder Tiger's got creamed.
-  - The Chieftain weighs in with IMO one of the better anti-Wehraboo analyses.
-  - Mentions one of the bigger deciding factors late-war. It's hard to field armour when the skies aren't yours. Hell, it's hard to develop new armor to keep up with your enemies' developments when the skies aren't yours.
-  - A review of the Tiger's capabilities. Short version, not bad, over-thought, and out-produced. LEss than 1400 Tigers ever made. Sherman production cracked 2000 monthly.
-  - What I hope this discussion turns into rather than what the Drowtales/SJW/pol talk pages are.
-  - Contains quotes from a allied tanker about facing German armor and infantry.
As a note, Salty, I believe I get the gist of your edit, and agree with you in principle about combating Wehrabooism, but let's not inadvertently start another edit war here please. Yes, this is TG-wiki, so your fact-per-sentence mileage may vary, but I think it's better to get people to actually research themselves then drift into an ideological battle (which that damned Tiger vs. Sherman fight always triggers on other forums).
Oh, and the bit about the 88mm gun and the M4 roof came from a link I can't find anymore; from a British tank commander who while hiding behind a hedgerow at dusk, waiting to ambush Germans, found a German tank column advancing on his position. Apparently this led to a German Tiger II tank commander going "hey, a hedgerow, what a perfect place to set up an ambush". It pulled up opposite of the Brit, who while keeping his cool for a few minutes, eventually decided that the Tiger was going to spot them (and then they'd die) so they might as well fire first. He ordered his gunner to fire as fast as they could, got three rounds off point plank into the front of the Tiger, at which point the Tiger fired back (presumably rather rattled). The shot opened a furrow in the M4's roof the length of the turret. The M4 decided running was the better part of valor. It's not reported what the Germans were thinking (although a change of undies was likely ordered). -2001:56A:F107:D500:F831:2E:E00D:BD1F 14:44, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
The Advanced Status of German Equipment
I am nothing close to an expert on Nazi equipment (or history in general, it all comes with the benefits of a classical education, but as I understand it, the wacky British war machines and American aircraft far outclassed German armaments by the end of the war, with most of the advantage being from 1939-42. I'll try and do some research (I own a few home encyclopedias and a single book on the history of warfare, plus the mental capability to Google and check sources on Wikipedia), but I'll leave this to folks who have a basic understanding of WWII. --Kracked Mynd (talk) 23:23, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
- It depends on what we're looking at and what time period we're looking at. One of the main things to remember is that by the end of the war Germany was fighting defensively and didn't exactly have the resources the allies had, nor did they have the capacity to manufacture good gear in such high numbers, and as the main page says, a lot of it was "overly complicated and unreliable to the point of being dangerous to its user." -- Triacom (talk) 00:03, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
- ^This. Essentially, German capacity for engineering throughout the war was easily as advanced as Britain or the U.S., arguably more; but just as you say, by the turn of the decade (1940) they were increasingly on the defensive, that is to say, in a "total war" environment, getting worse and worse as the war went on, I mentioned this in my edits about the Stg44 being a less-than ideal assault rifle (even if it coined the term) vs., say, the AK-47, which (obviously) came later but which would have been totally in theory technologically realiseable in 1944 Germany, but for the lack of certain (well, a bunch of) essential resources; and of course the Stg44 was a major influence on the AK-47 which learned from some of it's problems (some of which were due to the restrictions in materiel which were in effect in Germany at the time.) The AK-47 or something like it could've been developed by the Germans in some alternate history if they had a little more time and a bunch more resources and this could've turned the tide of the war. I only have any real knowledge about small arms though. Based Tzeentch (talk) 05:09, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
- Also, just to put it out there, I think that this page had ought to be renamed (with a redirect) "WW2 German Equipment" as nothing here really has to do with the NSDAP but rather with, well, the arms that Germany fought with in WW2. Based Tzeentch (talk) 05:09, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
- I disagree on the name change, as not only is it already ingrained in cultural memory, but there's so many games, books and movies based around Nazis (and specifically Nazis, not just Germans) and their gear, and so having a page that plays into that is a bit better in my opinion. -- Triacom (talk) 05:26, 7 September 2019 (UTC)