Talk:Ork Empire of Charadon

Charadon's Power Status

On what grounds is Charadon a Great Power? Simply having size and numbers cannot alone constitute Great Power Status if one's capacity for Power Projection is so limited that, as seen with the Orks of Charadon, they have practically never engaged in a successful attack against anyone and their primary military force has been defeated by very small numbers. Places like India and China were not Great Powers during the heyday of the 18th and 19th Centuries just because they had large numbers, large territories and large resource deposits. Charadon has failed to be as effective in conflict as even the Tau Empire, a much smaller nation, so I see no grounds for Charadon to be called a Great Power. Or, rather, can anyone adduce evidence of Charadon as a Great Power? Otherwise I'd like to restore my edit as I feel it was based on the clear fact in the lore that Charadon has never displayed any capacity for Great Power Status.

• Labeling Charadon a minor power is also a ridiculous stretch as they have proven to have regional capabilities. Placing Charadon as a minor power because they lost to the Tau isn't really a good reasoning as this can be compared to Soviet Union failing to crush Afghan insurgents or the United States, France and China losing to Vietnam. Military losses is not the main answer in telling the political power projection of a nation state, it is in the state's regional influence and how it is able to project said influence is what allows the state to project power. And yes, size and numbers do play a hand in terms of empire building, especially when dealing with a species such as the Orks in which size and the number of followers is everything to them. In the case for Charadon, it has proven itself to be capable of launching multiple large-scale campaigns and even capturing a good chunk from a neighboring sector. It is seen as a historical rival to Ultramar to the point that the Ultramarines view them as a threat. And the status of Warlord gives the Arch-Arsonist significant political weight to lesser Warboss surrounding Charadon. If Charadon is not a Great Power, it is at the very least a Regional Power. To put Charadon in the same weight class as the Tau, a polity that is viewed as nothing more than a buffer to outside forces by Ultramar alone is ridiculous. Derpysaurus
  • You misunderstood my point, Charadon's Orks have never been defeated by the Tau (to my knowledge) but they have been defeated by tiny forces compared to what the Tau, an explicit minor power, have themselves defeated. Again, I agree completely that the ability of the state to project power is crucial, but as I've said the Charadon Empire has an incredibly poor track record of projecting power, with basically every offensive they've ever launched ending in defeat, even when the odds were overwhelmingly in their favour. For example a tiny and undermanned group of Crimson Fists are able to hold off the Warboss and his personal Waaagh! very effectively, whereas the Tau have shown they can successfully fight and defeat multiple major Space Marine Chapters, Titan Legions, Imperial Guard Regiments and more simultaneously. The Tau have simply displayed a far better track record at projecting power successfully as the amount of effort exerted to stop them has been greater than that needed to stop Snagrod and, additionally, whereas Snagrod has been stopped the Tau have not. I see you already did alter it, so never mind this part then, I'm glad we were able to reach a compromise. User:Malignant
• You seem to not understand the nature of geopolotics, IR and Political Power Play. In the end of the day, it does not matter how much losses one polity gets, so long as said polity is able to project its influence and is able to sustain the projection is what is most important. Again, it is the same way why Russia invaded Crimea despite knowing about the deliberative consequence of economic sanctions. So long as Russia can project that it has the power to effect Europe, the International community would recognize Russia as a Great Power. The same can be said with Charadon. The Empire of Charadon DOES. NOT. CARE. if it loses a dozen battles to the Tau, so long as it can give a message to the Tau that they have the power to project its influence beyond their natural borders while the Tau can't do the same. And don't forget, Charadon conquered an entire sector by itself, which in itself boosts credibility and Smart Power inspiration among neighboring Orks. But other then that, there is nothing else to discuss. Derpysaurus
  • • You...again don't get my point. Did you not see where at the beginning I said to my knowledge Charadon has never been defeated by the Tau, let alone fought them? I'm trying to be very clear on this. Power Projection is all I'm talking about, my point is that the Charadon Empire has terrible power projection capabilities, that is literally what I'm saying. Almost every attempt to project there power has failed for them, all the Waaaghs! they've launched have failed for them, they've been defeated by tiny forces and they've failed to make any sizeable threat to anyone ever. My point is that the Empire doesn't have sufficient Power Projection capabilities to be called a Great Power. Furthermore Snagrod did not capture the entire system, only some of it, and only one world of consequence; Badlanding. In addition to that we're told Snagrod invaded Rynn's World with a force of Orks of such number that the only invasion comparable was that of Ghazghkull's on Armageddon, and yet this force still lost. Give me examples of major victories, conquests, land grabs and permanent territorial gains by Snagrod against opponents, but until then if Badlanding is the only example, then Charadon does not, at all, to me have the power projection capabilities befitting a Great Power. User:Malignant

They have a great power box, ergo they are a great power.--Namefag (talk) 19:12, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

They have a regional power box, as far as I know. User:Malignant

• I changed it to regional as I read that their power was waning as of recently. However the matter stands that they did conquer an entire sector by themselves and their assault on the Tau is significant as Charadon by itself is no where near Tau space, which means they do indeed have the capability in projecting power beyond their normal regional constraints. You literally have shown me that you are painfully ignorant on the nature of politics between power blocs as you are so determined to view successful military campaigns as a sign of one's power. Yes military projection is important but IT IS NOT EVERYTHING, to think otherwise is dishonest. If you look at the god dammed map you would see how extensive Charadon is. That success to expand in itself and hold its own from Imperial assaults especially from Ultramar is not a military failure, but a testament to Charadon's power.Derpysaurus
• I would finally like to add in that this entire argument has been done to death. To simply reply more is simply beating a dead horse as I already changed Charadon's power status to reflect its recent hegemonic fatigue. I very well understand your point, and that point has been stated multiple times already. I wish not to parrot the same argument again over an issue that has been fixed.Derpysaurus
  • What Imperial assauls has it resisted? Can you give me examples? To my knowledge the only Imperial assaults it suffers come from the Ultramarines and most have been described as successful. Malignant (talk)
• I should have restate what I meant. Charadon has so far has not yet being under any major assault by the Imperium despite their threat of expansion that I know of. Which can means either the Imperium has too much problems dealing with Abbadon or that Charadon is deemed too risky by the Imperium to invade with all the shit that has been going on.Derpysaurus