Talk:Ossiarch Bonereapers

From 1d4chan

Just typing a starter. Hope to see more people add to it.GreySeerCriak (talk) 15:45, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Nids[edit]

Look at their forms and even their arms. It's just Tyranid Warriors without flesh. Geedubs doesn't shy away to show that AoS is nothing but 40K Lite.

Wow, and Goro is just a Tyranid without chitin! Come on, the only real similarities are colour and arms. They don't have chitin, tails, they have many-faced heads, different body structures, different themes, etc. -- Triacom (talk) 22:41, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
I agree with Tria. My first thought on seeing them was 'are these new Tomb Kings or Sigmarcrons?' --58.162.223.230 09:20, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
They look like a mixture of haphazard bones from all species all sewn together to form a sturdy body. The skele-horses all have different heads, one even being a bird skull. And who knows. Maybe there is a tyranid-esque race hiding somewhere in the mortal realms and that’s why they bare some minor similarities. But that’s not reason to get up in arms over it.GreySeerCriak (talk) 21:44, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
To be serious for a second, I'd like anyone to honestly tell me they don't see how they're more similar to the Morghast than anything else. It's almost like Death already has a visual style of many bodies making up an undead construct. -- Triacom (talk) 21:49, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
Then again, the Morghasts date back to The End Times for Warhammer Fantasy. They're also not constructs; lorewise they're angels of Ptra - the Tomb Kings' sun god - who Nagash killed and turned into elite undead under his control. I also only compared them to Tomb Kings based on the shape of their shields, two of their units and being a nation of skeletal undead and undead constructs. I also hope they get a bone giant. -- Flufflion (talk) 21:08, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
And visually they're definitely constructs, made in the same way as the bonereapers, this is especially evident when you look at their legs. Also all of the Morghasts would have been destroyed in the End Times, so none of them in AoS would be the original beings, they'd have to be constructs. As for the shield shape, it's not similar, the Tomb Kings have an rectangle topped by a semi-circle, the reapers have round shield's. Their units don't look like Tomb King's and if we're looking at similarities just because of "constructs" (and not any similarities between them) then we might as well claim they're inspired by the Daughters of Khaine. Finally a nation of undead is one of the most common things in the setting, seeing as how one of the Grand Alliances is based around it. -- Triacom (talk) 17:43, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Why Bones?[edit]

This has been bugging me for some time, but can anyone explain to me why the bonereapers are made out of bone instead of what their armour/weapons are made out of? I know how strong bones are, but if it really was the end-all-be-all material that Nagash had access to, then they wouldn't be using other materials for their weapons and armour. It just comes off to me more grimderp than anything else, and like nearly everything in AoS it feels like it's trying too hard. -- Triacom (talk) 04:58, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

It is easy enough to justify, bones are far easier to collect than most metals and are litered in lord knows how many graveyards around the realms and enemies delivering bone as tribute is a lot faster and can be delivered in greater quantity than mined minerals. Also as deathlords, bones are far eaiser for them to manipulate than minerals as the necromantic power doesn't have as much effect on it as things related intrinsincily to death (eg. bones) thus it is harder for their magic to manipulate and animate. So actually it makes sense they would use bone as it can be animated by the spirits of the dead and than just manufacture the armour they need. The time and cost it would take for them to animate some metal constructs would never allow an army to be made in the numbers Nagash requires. The novels Black Pyramid and to a lesser extent the Lords of Death goes into this in more detail. Really them using bone as the building material makes perfect sense when taken into context about how Shyish magic works and I don't think it is "Trying to hard". -- Gbc343 (talk) 16:31, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
I'll look those novels up when I'm able (I can't find "Lords of Death" so I'm assuming you meant "Rulers of Death"), but why would they go with the easiest and cheapest route in an army where quality is supposed to beat quantity, and if they only wanted to do what was easiest, then why wouldn't they continue to just reanimate bodies with these new distilled souls, if not use the new souls in the Nighthaunt? -- Triacom (talk) 23:22, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
Even with quality it still has to be efficient enough production in order to create them in numbers to even make matter in the grand scheme of things. If they can create a thousand bone constructs for the time it would take to make one iron golem the choice is obvious. And these guys while still harder to create than standard skeletons or nighthaunt are more overall durable than either of them and don’t require as much direct supervision. Deathrattle and Nighthaunt require much more supervision and support from necromancers and leaders, while deathrattle don’t have much in the way of independent thought and Nighthaunt for the most part are highly mercurial, shifting between basically feral killing machines and single minded tools. Nighthaunt can’t be relied upon to garrison a castle, or to properly hold captured territory, as most aside from high ranking ones are basically tortured, barely sentient spirits. And also spirits are highly dependent on sufficient death magic in an area to maintain there forms and are very vulnerable to wards and anti-death materials (salt, silver etc). Ossiarchs on the other hand are all individual personalities completely capable of independent thought and tactics. Can operate away from central command and are durable enough to take on the heavy hitters from other races while being less dependent on a necromancer or surrounding death magic to sustain their forms and being less vulnerable to hex wards. Basically they act as actual soldiers instead of animated weapons. And again, death magic manipulates bone much easier than metal so it makes sense to use it to create more durable bodies that can survive more than a couple hits without needing a necromancer to restich a skeleton, or reconfigure a spirit that got dispersed. -- Gbc343 (talk) 17:47, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
Those are good points, and I'll accept them if the book comes out and has those points (or ones similar enough) in it. If it doesn't have those points, and if it doesn't explain how/why Nagash apparently has production issues with anything that isn't bones/spirits, then at least your points will have been some good speculation. At the very least I hope there's a reason given in the book for why Nagash didn't make a ton of vampires and then strip the parts of their souls he doesn't like off of them if he wants the cheapest investment with the greatest return. -- Triacom (talk) 00:06, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
Some was speculation, some was taken from sources that compared the various undead (soul wars, Black Pyramid) but most of that I actually got from the reveal articles. Though obviously I had to use some level of critical thinking in some areas but I am very confident the book will spell this out more. For instance there still a lot we don't know about them. Why are we just hearing them now? How long has this army been in development? Why is arkhan there but not any of the other mortarchs. All in time I feel. -- Gbc343 (talk) 18:49, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
Most of your questions are answered in the most recent Stormcast. They've been around in one form or another since the age of myth, hidden beneath Sigmar's cities where apparently nobody noticed them. We're only hearing about them now because that's where we're at in the timeline when they retconned them into existence, and I guess Nagash just kinda forgot he had them. Arkhan's there because apparently transporting the grave sand was his idea, so the skellies who carried the sand were reshaped into reapers and given to him as a reward for his loyal service. I'd still like to know why in-universe they're going with these guys over soul-stripped vampires when those just seem better (if they wanted a quick and easy force to raise), but maybe they'll have something. -- Triacom (talk) 01:59, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
That can just easily be handwaved away by the fact the creation of a soulblight is a much more complex process that can't be replicated en masse to make a true army. And vampires true value comes from their magical and logistical services to Nagash, not role of footman, and a skelaton construct would probably be more durable to an undead flesh body (that wouldn't be as powerfull as a regular vampire). The battletome will almost certainly not contain an outline why creating bone constructs is better than creating quasi-vampires. They don't tend to go that deep into lore in battletomes.
Are you sure it's that much more complex? Because when the Soulblight were first expanded upon in the setting it said tons of vampires were created by bat swarms feeding off the wounded/dying, who would then get turned into vampires. That's why I'm a little confused, because going by that lore Nagash could've just sent bats at towns, then stripped their souls of unwanted elements after they become vampires and there you go, you got your vampire legion. Also yes, their real power comes from the fact that beyond their physical might, they can inherently use magic and think/plan for themselves, which means they fill the role the Bonereapers are meant to fill and then some, since they'd also be capable of reanimating armies of their own in the field. I'm also going to say that assuming the Bonereapers will be tougher than vampires is a huge leap, especially if their stats are anything to go by. Vampires are almost always tough as nails, especially when we get to the more powerful ones. Even the weakest ones you can currently field are a world above Bonereaper footsoldiers on a one-to-one basis if we go by stats. Like I said above though, it just needs to give at least some sort of reason for why Nagash went this route, as the more I think it over, the less I'm convinced that 'takes effort' should be an excuse for an elite army unless there really is some sort of massive production issue. -- Triacom (talk) 06:07, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
Also if they just wanted to go the cheapest/easiest route, why are they wearing armour and armed with non-bone weapons? -- Triacom (talk) 23:27, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Before anyone responds that it's in the name, they also collect bone to make sculptures and structures that are aesthetically pleasing to Nagash, so it's not like they don't have a reason to gather bone if they're made out of a different material. -- Triacom (talk) 05:00, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Out of universe reason = It's an aesthetic thing. In universe reason = ???, maybe it's easier to animate bones than whatever their weapons are made of? --58.162.223.230 05:26, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
We know it's relatively easy to animate constructs, the Tomb Kings were doing it before necromancy was even created, and Heinrich Kemmler was also able to animate his own constructs (in what seemed like only an afternoon) when he fought the Wood Elves. In the most recent Stormcast Phil Kelly mentions that some were made out of rock that also happened to be bones for rockbeasts, so it's not like they're limited in material. The in-universe reason is what I'm really looking for here, because I'm just not seeing it. -- Triacom (talk) 06:03, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
My best guess is that it started with RULE OF COOL, then that one intern at GW asked your question, and the design team completely ignored him, too busy one-upping each other with more BONY COOLNESS; the crickets chirped for a comedic effect (because they're bugs with a good sense of drama). Next thing you know Bonereapers will be riding floating (and flaming) skeletons of sharks --Taufag (talk) 06:33, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
They can't do that, that's the Deepkin thing to do. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they did it though, they already ride bone rhino's instead of horses, that apparently are very easy to dodge and don't hurt all that badly when they run into you. Maybe once they're done making bone versions of Khorne's Juggernauts they'll move on to make boney sharks. -- Triacom (talk) 09:14, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

So now that Wrath of the Everchosen is coming out, there's a bit of an issue with the Bonereapers, and it's one I feel comfortable reviving this topic for: why aren't they all like Katakros? He's a mix of bone and marble (so it's not like they're limited to only bone) and he has many spare bodies he can quantum leap into if one's killed, so how come all of the Bonereapers aren't giants capable of wrestling down Greater Daemons? Also don't tell me they don't have the supplies to make them, the Bonereapers build cities out of the stuff, so making the rest of Katakros' 10,000 like him should not be an issue. -- Triacom (talk) 09:28, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

From absolutely no position to know, I'd guess the answer would be that 1) a proper army has to have variance to defeat most armies (imagine if an army of giant Bonereapers move to get the toll from an old-school Empire-style city with huge walls with more cannons than hedgehogs got spikes. Bad time bears all around), and/or 2) the process of making a regular Boneboi could be way easier to sorcel and craft compared to the intricate design of Katakros. It could be the difference between creating a Space Marine and making a Primarch. Close to the same result but far from similar in resources and time needed to make it. TheWiseDane (talk) 10:03, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
But what does an army of smaller Bonereapers have that giants could not? Mounts? Just make giant mounts. Artillery? You can still make that. In addition, the smaller Bonereapers are not less vulnerable to cannons than big ones, in fact it's quite the opposite since they would have a more dense formation. As for effort, see above for why I don't believe effort is an excuse when it comes to making an elite army. Also as far as we know, Katakros' bodies are just bone and marble, and there's a lot going on behind the scenes in the creation of the Primarchs that explains why the Space Marines aren't like them, and there's no reason given for why the Bonereapers aren't like Katakros. -- Triacom (talk) 18:12, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
If we want to look at it from an outside viewpoint, it's probably because GW wanted to make a normal army and not AoS Imperial Knights. As for the in-universe reason, I agree with Dane on the 'variance' point, there's a reason why even really heavily standardised armies like those of the early modern era still kept non-line units like heavy cav, skirmishers, etc. For the Bonereapers, if they were all Spooky Scary Primarchs, then they'd be easily defeated by small corridors and stairs. Also, maybe Katakros wanted to be a special snowflake? Because I admit it's weird they can't do the Sigmarine thing and respawn after death. --203.40.182.34 10:46, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
When the Bonereapers attack a city they raze it, they're not doing so in order to take it and so smaller corridors would not be an issue for them when they could just rip everything apart. I've also yet to see an AoS city that has doors and corridors that couldn't accomodate them, since every faction seems to have their buildings constructed at a massive scale, and apparently they can do the Sigmarine thing because Katakros almost immediately respawned after he died. -- Triacom (talk) 18:12, 3 February 2020 (UTC)