Talk:Phoenix Lord

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Missing Phoenix Lords/Orphaned Aspects

Is there any information regarding Phoenix Lords for the Warp Spiders or Crimson Hunters? Did they somehow crop up without Phoenix Lords of their own, or are they just missing?

No in either case. There's also nothing that says an aspect *has* to have ever have a lord, it's just their founders tend to become Lords. 72.83.39.122 18:04, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
If I'm not mistaken both are too young for a Phoenix Lord to form yet --D715 (talk) 20:36, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Damn. I want a teleporting, monofilament-spamming, tarpit-fucking Phoenix Lord. Also, a vehicular Phoenix Lord would be pretty interesting. Well, there's always the next codex - or maybe Forge World, with any luck.

Probably Lhykosidae, as Lycosidae is the scientific classification for a Wolf Spider and GeeDubs being anything but original i.e. Corvus Corax.

On Jain Zar VS Straken[edit]

I find it kinda preposterous we cannot factorize the squad, since straken is forced to always be with them. And in so far that's the loadout most people will take! (Heck, the tactica here references the ideal loadout as Meltas, medi-pack and priest, plust deddog). Why can't we consider this?

Fuegan[edit]

So the article said this motherfucker fucked 32 greater daemons compared to gary stu in shining armour and super angel vampire. Here's what I want to know:

1. Did he gained those kills over the time when he was alived?

2. Did he used some tactics, like having meatshields to tanking or distracting the greater daemon so he could charge up his B.F. gun and aim directly to those bastards brain?

I think it's both alive and as a soul eating armor. So ten millenia give you plenty of time.

Pimping out this page.[edit]

Added a bunch of stuff for most of the Phoenix Lords. Fleshed out their lore, added stats and a quick summary of their tabletop abilities and stats, but note that I'm not an eldar player so I might have missed a rule or fucked up a stat or something like that, and my conjecture on how they play is largely just that: conjecture. My comments are informed by our own tactics page and a few off-cite resources, plus my own experience from fighting Phoenix Lords on the tabletop (which has happened exactly twice), but if some eldar player notices I fucked something up, by all means, correct it! Peace. Josman (talk) 02:56, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Drastanta.[edit]

I can't find anything on this guy. No art, no rules, not even much lore. Does this guy even have rules or a model? Josman (talk) 03:03, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

No art or model, but snippets of lore are found in the Iyanden supplement and the only rules that exist relate to his lance, that's really about it.--Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 11:23, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Links[edit]

What's the point of having all the Phoenix Lords in the Eldar "box" when it just links to this one page?

I do think some of the more prominent Phoenix Lords (Like Asurmen and Jain Zar) deserve to have their own pages at least.

TLDR: Fucking Eldar xxx[edit]

Cato Sicarius is a Space Marine Captain, Ragnar Blackmane is a Space Marine Captain, Uriel Ventris is a Space Marine Captain, Space Marine Captains have achieved numerous feats more impressive than dying to a dreadnought, killing a Transcendant C'tan comes to mind, so I see no reason why comparing Phoenix Lords to Space Marine Captains is wrong. Malignant (talk) 08:58, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Not sure if you're being a troll or not, in case you are genuinely looking for a discussion on this, and cos I'm bored, I'll give you a counter-argument;

Now since this article address both the lore and tabletop tactics for these characters I'll take both into account. In terms of the tabletop these guys are Chapter Masters, no question, same statline, unique relic items and unique aura abilities. In the tabletop the equivalent to a Space Marine Captain would be an Autarch. Since you seem to be fixated purely on the combat prowess of the Phoenix Lords for making this comparison then again I'd say you're looking at a Chapter Master. My justification for this is that unlike a Primarch the Phoenix Lords are not demi-gods, they're Eldar Exarchs with a large amount of experience and skill, in a similar manner a Chapter Master is essentially Captain with a large amount of experience of skill. So in terms of skill technically yes it could be argued that a Captain is a Phoenix Lords equal, however your average every day Captain probably wouldn't a highly experienced and skilled Captain could, but I'd also argue a highly experienced and skilled Captain could also match a Chapter Master. Essentially all three are simply extremely highly skilled warriors and could feesably achieve similar feats so yes a comparison can be drawn, however, I believe the comparison of Phoenix Lord = Chapter Master is probably more accurate when taking into account the average skill level that these two represent. Another quick note on this point, this is also reflected in the tabletop, if you spend a decent amount of points on a Captain they could definitely give a Phoenix Lord or Chapter Master a good fight.

One thing you seem to be ignoring though is what these Phoenix Lords represent to their Aspect. I would personally argue that in this respect there is no direct comparison as I'd place them somewhere between a Chapter Master and a Primarch. I say this because due to the Phoenix Lords ability to resurrect they kinda are like a Chapter Master, the most skilled Exarch becomes the next Phoenix Lord and leads the Aspect, similar to how generally the most skilled Captain will become a Chapter Master. However, these guys aren't simply the leaders of their Aspect like a Chapter Master, they're the first of their Aspect, their fighting style and tactics shaped how their Aspect fights, in this respect I'd say they're more like the Primarch equivalent to their Aspect, even though in neither the tabletop or the lore are they a match for a Primarch in a one-on-one fight.

So cos I rambled on for a bit in summary I'd say there is no direct comparison, but a Chapter Master is probably the most accurate equivalent. --A Suitable Force (talk) 20:16, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

  • As they represent a single aspect of Eldar warfare, it's not unreasonable to compare them to primarchs, too.
Autarchs are not comparable to Capains, even a moderately well-equipped captain will smash an Autarch to pieces, even smash Yriel to pieces, Captains are considerably superior to Autrachs in Crunch and in Fluff the gap is even bigger. Captains, in Fluff, regularly beat Greater Daemons, Riptides, Warbosses, Autarchs, Farseers, C'tan and more in single Combat, Autarchs do nothing close to this whatsoever, Autarchs are considerably inferior to Captains in general. I'd dispute Phoenix Lords aren't Demigods, as the Phoenix Lord novels displays that Khaine himself considers them 'children' and that they've become bound to him, but its an immaterial distinction to me since Demigod or not doesn't change how they stack up against Space Marines. Further, if you want to expand the comparison to non-combat abilities, then there are tons of differences; Phoenix Lords don't stay with a single homogenous culturual group and train it, they are nomadic loners who only briefly intersect on a battlefield, Phoenix Lords aren't omnidisciplinary geniuses like most Chapter Masters who are their Chapters greatest warrior, commander and leader all in one, Phoenix Lords are VASTLY older and have spent more time fighting than all Chapter Masters, seeing as they all become 'established legends' by M32 according to their Codex, so there is a big difference between them in non-combat ability to. I am glad we agree they aren't comparable to Primarchs though, that was ridiculous, a Primarch would easily dispatch all the Phoenix Lords. Considering what you are saying though why don't we just get rid of the comparison entire? Malignant (talk) 11:41, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Why can't you just write something like: "If Aspect Warriors are Eldar Space Marines, then Phoenix Lords are Eldar Chapter Masters". -- Triacom (talk) 18:03, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

Cause in most fluff Aspect Warriors aren't close to comparable to Space Marines and get killed in the dozens by them, so they aren't comparable. I'm all for just getting rid of the comparison, but as long as the comparison is there it has to at least be acknowledged that Phoenix Lords and Aspect Warriors are at best inferior versions of Space Marines and Chapter Masters. Malignant (talk) 09:30, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Read it again. I'm not saying they are space marines, I'm saying that if Aspect Warriors are to Eldar what Space Marines are to Guard (not entirely unfounded) then Phoenix Lords are their equivalent to Chapter Masters. I'm not saying one is like the other, I'm using the Marines as a frame of reference. -- Triacom (talk) 09:37, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
By what measure are they 'like Space Marines' then? They aren't genetically enhanced Eldar, they don't run semi-independent states separate from the Craftworld, they don't practise a specifically different culture or faith (lack thereof) from all other Eldar of their Craftworld, they don't share genetic information or heritage, they aren't mono-gendered, so by what measure are they 'like Space Marines' at all then? Just get rid of the comparison at all then. Malignant (talk) 12:08, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Again, I'm not saying they're Space Marines, I'm using the Space Marines as a frame of reference. If you think I'm saying that they're like Marines then you're misreading what I'm writing. I'm using the Marines because they're easy to establish as being the elites of a respective race and saying X of another race is the Space Marines of that race is to say that X is the elite warriors of that race. It's like saying "If Termagants are the Tyranid Guardsmen, then Warriors are the Tyranid Space Marines." You're not saying that they're just like Marines there, you're using them to show the difference between the two groups. To use an example on this wiki, there's a page that likens Khorne Daemons to Grots when comparing them to An'ggrath, this does not mean that they actually are Grots, just that when compared to something like him they look like Grots in comparison. -- Triacom (talk) 19:28, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
No, I get what you mean, I just still don't think the comparison is valid. If anything Aspect Warriors are more like the Imperium's Tempestus Scions, not Space Marines, Space Marines are FAR to much above both Eldar and Humans for Aspect Warriors to be close, if you want to say Aspect Warriors are like the elite of their species then compare them rather to Tempestus Scions, who are far closer to them in capabilities than Space Marines are. Other than that I just think comparing everything in such general terms isn't necessary. Should the Tau Battlesuit page note that Sha'vre are like 'Tau Space Marines'? Should Ork Nob pages note Nobz are like 'Ork Veterans'? and so on and such. As I've said I just personally don't see a need for it and, personally, think it gives the wrong impression to a reader. A reader of 40k fluff shouldn't think 'Phoenix Lords are comparable to Chapter Masters' because they aren't. Phoenix Lord's have had millenia of time and basically never achieved anything, many Chapter Masters who are just a handful of centuries old have done more than all the Phoenix Lords combined, so I think, from a narrative point of view, the comparison is misleading, personally now. But I do get what you mean by the general 'Aspect Warriors are like Elites' I do grasp that. Malignant (talk) 09:42, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
See you say that Space Marines are far above aspect warriors, but that doesn't stop aspect warriors from butchering a shitload of marines so I wouldn't say they're 'far' above them. Also aspect warriors have demonstrated abilities well above that of their 'normal' Eldar brethren so again I don't see why it's bad to use Marines as a frame of reference here. If we were to compare them as you say, aspect warriors are far above regular Eldar, whereas Tempestus Scions are not far above regular guardsmen (and are easily equaled by veteran guardsmen). As for those other comparisons, the term MEQ exists for a reason, just like how every gun in the setting is inevitably held up against the bolter. Also once more I'm not comparing the two, just using the Marines as a frame of reference to distinguish the aspect warriors and their Phoenix Lords. You keep saying that you don't want them compared to them when my suggestion does not compare them at all, so I don't think you get what I'm going for. -- Triacom (talk) 23:51, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
I don't know of any time of Aspect Warriors murdering a shitload of Space Marines, I know of many times when Space Marines have done so, two Blood Raven Sergeants between them kill over 50 Aspect Warriors, but I know of no example in-story of Aspect Warriors butching large numbers of Space Marines, could you perhaps provide examples? I'd have to disagree, the difference between base Eldar and Aspect Warrior is far smaller than the difference between base Human and Space Marine, they are not similar in that regard. If you're using them as a framework by which one is directly being related to the other (for example: they are equivlant to the Space Marine variants of their faction) then there is a comparative aspect to that judgement. Personally though I'm fine with what the current page says, so unless you have an issue with it you'd like to discuss, I think we can leave it as is. Malignant (talk) 15:38, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
Actually I'm going to take back this point because while I swear that I could remember it happening, I can't remember the title of the book(s) it happened in, and the ones I do remember off the top of my head having Marines being butchered in ridiculous numbers have the butchering either done by the Harlequins or the Dark Eldar (which in my opinion, both are worse choices). The only one that comes the closest is Biel-tan vs several astartes chapters, in which Biel-tan won (that one is in the Eldar codex but it sheds very little light on the actual battle). For the record that craftworld is so focused on aspect warriors they make up the vast majority of its military and are also its ruling class. As for the difference, I don't quite agree there, if we were to look at what they can do, especially after they become Exarchs, there's a much bigger difference between aspect warriors and Eldar than guardsmen to Marines. This one all you need to do is look at the older codices to find the differences and while they've been dialed back in the rules, the lore certainly has not dialed back how powerful Exarchs are. "If you're using them as a framework by which one is directly being related to the other..." That's exactly what I'm trying to go for here. Also the current page as is gains nothing from a TL;DR section because it currently says nothing of any value. -- Triacom (talk) 03:24, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

When have Dark Eldar butchered large numbers of Space Marines? Harlequins too. I know a Shadowseer and Death Jester killed a bunch of Custodes in that piece of Crap Beast Series, but I can't think of any time I've read of Harlequins butchering Space Marines in large numbers. In Death Masque the Deathwatch largely own them and in the Fabius Bile books Harlequins can't beat Chaos Space Marines one-on-one at all and are usually dying in droves to them. Yeah I know Rasilena, its pretty much the only time Craftworld Eldar have won a fight against random no-name Space Marines. As you say though no details are given about it beyond the participation of 'ten chapters and two battlefleets'. When have Exarchs been particularly dangerous? In Swordwind two Deathwatch kill multiple Banshee squads with Exarchs and in Forge of Mars an Arcoflagellant kills an Exarch. Anyway; since I felt the comparison bit at the end did add nothing this change for me is just more accurate. I'm still totally in favour of just getting rid of that bit at the end though, if you're okay with it I'd be happy to just delete that bottom little bit. Malignant (talk) 18:38, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

The Dark Eldar butchered a good number of Space Marines in their own codex starting with the 5th edition codex, for all the love people give Phil Kelly his fight against the DA is absurdly one-sided in the DA's favour. Apparently it's super easy for them to win in a fight against the Marines and they've also taken down a lot of Marines in the Legion of the Damned 'codex'. As for the Harlequins, I believe it's in their codex and while in Death Masque the Deathwatch own the later half of the book, the earlier half has the opposite opinion of them, although Death Masque is really inconsistent on how strong the Harlequins should be (it's a shit book). At times it's easy for them to kill Marines, at other times they just jump around not doing anything until they get hit. As you say the piece of shit Beast Arises series has them take down a lot of Custodes who are well above Marines, so there's that. Exarchs depending on the writer and if they remember what they can do or not are significantly more dangerous than Marines, hence the list of super-powers they used to be able to use on the tabletop (which were sadly taken away). As for those examples you list, I haven't read Swordwind so I can't weigh in on it but that just sounds like something that should not happen, and an Arcoflagellant killing an Exarch is just about as stupid as a cultist picking up a lead pipe and beating a fully armoured Marine to death with it. -- Triacom (talk) 19:27, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
Fight against the DA? Death Masque and Beast are shit, I won't disagree with that. Eh Exarchs lose to Space Marines a lot, two Blood Raven Sergeants between them casually kill a ton of Howling Banshees and a Warp Spider Exarch, in fluff I can't think of many times Exarchs have been a match for Space Marines at all, in the Fabius Bile books Harlequins aren't even a match for Chaos Space Marines. But anyway, I think the matter's resolved then, so I'll just delete that bit at the bottom. Malignant (talk) 21:20, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
I meant to say DE, whoops. That major fight can be found in Vect's rise to power and like I said the other fight is in the LotD codex. I don't think it's a good idea to use videogames as examples, otherwise I could just as easily point out how Space Marines can be gunned down by Guard Squads as apparently dozens to hundreds of Marines die in every single battle. -- Triacom (talk) 21:48, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
Hmm? I remember in the Vect rising bit that just 100 Marines are holding out against the three greatest houses in Commorragh so well and killing their men so much that they give up and tell Vect to do it, don't remember them getting butchered, they do very well if I remember correctly. The Blood Raven thing is from one of the novels, or comics, I think, not the game, and the Fabius Bile stuff is from the recent novels Primogenitor and Clonelord. Malignant (talk) 21:56, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
I guess you missed or forgot the bit where the Marines got a ton of reinforcements then? If the Blood Ravens thing isn't from the game then I don't know it and I'll refrain from commenting on it. -- Triacom (talk) 23:38, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
If the Blood Ravens bit is from where I think it is, then that was from one of C.S. Goto's works and can be safely disregarded. --Newerfag (talk) 01:53, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
Well I mean according to the Codex the Marines hold out with minimal losses whilst devastating the Dark Eldar for sixteen days, so that's already impressive considering they are literally right in the middle of Commorragh with no help for more than two weeks and the Dark Eldar can't, apparently, in that time finish them off at all. The Blood Raven bits are from the novels, though I went and checked and the particular bit I was thinking of was from the comics. Malignant (talk) 08:08, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Again you seem to be missing the point, look beyond what the Phoenix Lords are capable of and more to what they represent, also you should note that I said that the Phoenix Lords are not demi-Gods, unlike the Primarchs. As for the Autarchs are not equal to a Captain they really are, they're the military leaders of an Eldar War Host as a Captain is a military leader of a company of Space Marines, and in the tabletop having fought fights between Autarch's and Captains they are roughly equal, a Captain does have a slight advantage in melee, but honestly this mostly comes down to access to much more equipment than an Autarch, whereas an Autarch is a better leader thanks to the Path of Command ability. If you're looking for a genuine fair comparison between the two look to the tabletop rather than the lore, the Space Marines have a huge bias in the lore as they are the most popular faction and so yes will pull off crazy incredible feats that paint them in a good light, the tabletop however actually has numerical stats that can be used to compare a Space Marine and an Eldar. Quite frankly the lore content of the Phoenix Lords is much more in-line of what they are actually capable of in the tabletop, you ever tried taking on a C'Tan with a Space Marine Captain? It's not a good time for the Captain. Personally in games I've played I've found that Phoenix Lords actually pull their weight more than a Chapter Master, and in particular I've had Asurmen kill a Chapter Master in a one-on-one fight on multiple occasions. Just for a quick note before you claim this is me being a but hurt Eldar fanboy I actually collect both Space Marines and Eldar. --A Suitable Force (talk) 18:21, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

I know, I said I dispute Phoenix Lords not being considered Demi-gods (in other words I think its easy to consider them as such) but that it is immaterial for the discussion. I did discuss what they represent, and also all the VAST differences between them and Primarchs as well, beyond just their across the board inferiority. Then, here, we're just gonna run into an intractable problem here; I think using Crunch to discuss the story is impossible, I seperate the two completely, and only use Fluff for narrative purposes. I'm not gonna use the crunch for determining or discussing the fluff, so if you intend to then I don't think there's much point in this conversation. What I will say though is that even in Stats a Primarch will wipe the floor with a Phoenix Lord with ease. But, with that said, I don't think Crunch reflects or has any bearing on Fluff. Finally; I would never accuse you of bias due to the army you collect, don't worry about that, I don't think it matters what army a person collects for this discussion. That being said I still stand by my position, I think the comparison should either be reduced to Captain or removed outright. I'm willing to compromise and accept Chapter Master, since its better than some ridiculously untrue claim any Xenos Character bar 1 could match a Primarch, but still not to my liking. At this stage I think getting rid of the comparison wholesale, particularly considering how inferior in fluff Aspect Warriors are to Space Marines anyway, would be better. That's my personal opinion. Malignant (talk) 19:27, 7 December 2017 (UTC)