Talk:Primarch

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The Fate of Rogal Dorn[edit]

Are we sure he's dead? There seems to be two versions of what happened to him. One of Ian Watson's Black Library novels says that he was killed and his skeleton is encased in amber, but there's been other sources saying they only found Dorn's skeletal hand and a few of his weapons. --Hellforged Savant 01:10, 10 June 2012 (BST)

The only source-ONLY source is the book Space Marine. Check the lexicanum page, even they show Space Marine as being their source. Space Marine is displayed as a heretic tome on the BL website, and so is definitely NOT an acceptable source. What actually happened was ONE hand was recover. Rogal is either missing with one hand, or his corpse is missing with one hand. We don't know which, so he is MIA. Deal with it.

Index Astartes II also says that Dorn died and his remains (including the hands) were recovered, and that one IS canon. Clearly you didn't look carefully enough at the page. And learn how to sign after you edit on a talk page.--Newerfag 23:43, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

He is not confirmed dead. One thing wrong with Index Astartes II as your source: First is that it does not say they recovered his body. It only explicitly says they recovered his hands. He is MIA. Stop being a bitch about it. Also the hilariously non-canonical Space Marine is the only source for the 'encased in amber' thing. Regardless of if he is dead or not, no valid source contains the word 'amber'.

Okay, fine. The mentions of amber are gone. But last I checked, having skeletal hands usually means that their owner is dead, so you stop being a bitch about it. And if you absolutely must start an edit war over this, the least you could do is get a username.--Newerfag 00:52, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

It does usually mean the owner of the hands is dead, but not necessarily. It is likely he is dead. It is not explicitly stated. That would make him MIA. List him as such. And actually, the least I could do is nothing.

Then just stop complaining before we both get banned for edit warring. Seriously, nobody gave a flying fuck about this until you showed up. --Newerfag 01:32, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Obviously someone did or you wouldn't have changed it, and this discussion topic has been open since June. List him as MIA. Say he is "most likely deceased". Simple Shit.

Now you're making shit up- you were the first one to change this talk page since June, so clearly nobody else had a problem with it until you showed up two days ago. There is no evidence at all that Dorn survived, and unlesss you can come up with that, we're assuming that he is in fact dead. If you don't like that, fine- just don't drag this on any longer.--Newerfag 03:31, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

  • To bring up more recent matters, in Prince of Crows when Konrad Curze sees Rogal Dorn for the first time he has a vision of Dorn being mobbed by murderers and killed, indicating that yes, Dorn being dead is indeed still canon. -- SFH 04:03, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Making nothing up, Hellforged savant was the first to start this discussion page, and I am not he. I do not need to prove Dorn is alive. There is no solid proof he is dead. His hands were found. Unless Primarchs have all their vital organs in their hands, it does not prove their death. Kurze saw that Dorn would die at some point? Great, no evidence it has come to pass. Point is, we do not know 100% he is dead, so don't list him as dead. There's really no two ways about it.

  • You know what? That's fine. But you're not putting in the article. We have provided proof that Rogal Dorn is dead (Index Astartes and Prince of Crows), you have just chosen to ignore it. So I ask you this: where is your proof that Rogal Dorn is alive? -- SFH 00:54, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

There IS no proof he is dead. The Prince of Crows proves he will die at some point, meaning he won't live until the end of eternity. Index Astartes II proves his hands were found. I have yet to see anything that explicitly says he is deceased. That means it is conjecture to state he is dead, which means he should be listed as MIA. I am not proving he is alive, and I agree it is likely he is dead, but there is no reason to state his death as fact.

  • If you agree that it's likely that he;s dead, just drop the issue already. The majority of people in the fandom are acting on the assumption that Dorn is dead because otherwise we would have to make some rather dodgy assumptions about why Dorn has never bothered to tell anyone in the Imperium he survived, among many other things. Now please stop splitting hairs. If you don't agree with the consensus, fine- just stop acting like you alone know what is and is not canon.--Newerfag 05:26, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Discovery order[edit]

Hi guys, I'm trying to put together a piece on the actual discovery order of the Primarchs, but it'll involve a lot of research and I don't currently have all the available materials to hand, plus I might miss something.

So as a WIP I'm putting what I've got here for the moment, with side-notes so everyone can see the reasoning, though if anyone has anything else to mention please feel free to comment:

One assumption I'm making is that the Great Crusade lasted 200 years and officially ended at the Dropsite Massacre on 006.M31, even if the dates are wrong it will probably not matter too much, they are mostly for comparative purposes.

Generally speaking, only Horus, Guilliman & Alpharius I can say are fixed at the moment and everything else is relative, so I realise when more evidence arises that the list could changed radically, such as Leman Russ moving much further up the list and being replaced by a missing primarch in discovery order, so right now the list is mostly for comparison while I work on it. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 18:11, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

I heard that someone from GW actually said what the order of discovery was somewhere on the Internet, but I can't seem to remember exactly where it was posted. If I find it, I'll let you know. --Newerfag (talk) 19:30, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
Thanks dude--Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 20:14, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
Here. "Please bear in mind that we will fix two really minor details at the next printing of one of the novels." probably means that the Emperor's conversation with Corax in Deliverance Lost will be subtly changed, along with some other contradictory passage somewhere.--71.47.208.127 20:09, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
Now that's interesting, my list wasn't that far off, but I pulled my research from more recent sources than 2013, I'm not going to dispute against a BL member, but it seems that the fluff is becoming contradictory, I placed them relative to each other based on campaign dates and statements made by characters in universe, particularly surrounding Mortarion in Daemonology Maybe the fluff is shifting? --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 20:25, 2 March 2015 (UTC)
When Big E is talking to Corax after finding him, it's pointed out that the 2 missing legions were already dealt with, meaning that he was found second to last as the absolute soonest.
You are correct, but they released an unofficial official order.--97.104.199.133 20:21, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

Primarch Discovery Order[edit]

Found Name Discovery Year (if known) Additional notes
1 Horus ~800.M30 Well established as first found
2 Leman Russ? Known to be before Perturabo
3 Ferrus Manus Known to be before Perturabo and Vulkan, contemporary with Fulgrim
6 Fulgrim Flagship was completed 160 years before Horus Heresy began
7 Sanguinius arrived shortly after Fulgrim
8 Vulkan prior to 840.M30 existence was revealed after a delay, though the Legion's fortunes turned in 840 with his arrival
7 Rogal Dorn 840.M30 Took part in 160 years of the Great Crusade
8 Roboute Guilliman confirmed as eighth in Unremembered Empire, potentially a dig at the Lion who may have come later
9 Jaghatai Khan uncertain, perhaps before the Lion
10 Lion El'Jonson presumably after / contemporary with the White Scars, since an "early" campaign had them relieving the scars at Sarosh.
11 Perturabo Late 840s.M30 Date given in Conquest, also confirmed after Guilliman and the naming of the Dark Angels
12 Magnus prior to 900.M30 had joined earlier, but legion reached fighting strength midway into the Crusade
13 Konrad Curze ~900.M30 was discovered a century into the crusade, after Fulgrim and before Mortarion
14 Lorgar Magnus was there at his discovery
15 Angron discovered before Mortarion and after Perturabo
16 ?
17 Mortarion 930.M30 was discovered 70 years before the Horus Heresy, and after Angron & Curze
18 Corax uncertain: expected as third or second to last
19 Missing Primarch?
20 Alpharius 981.M30 known to be last, and date of joining the Alpha Legion is given

Primarch Return theory[edit]

So I read up a while ago about how one of the loyalist primarchs might be returning as a traitor (I think on Jaghati's page). I was thinking, with the new picture of Gulliman where Cypher is seen leading the Fallen has led me to wonder if Lion is in fact a traitor and the Fallen are actually Loyalist whereas the Dark Angels are the actual traitors. If you take into account that the Dark Angels are very secretive and obsessed with capturing Fallen before they can reveal the secret, it could make sense. Tyranid Memestealer (talk) 08:28, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Only that Luther was actually a traitor who wanted independence from the Imperium and was delving into chaos lore and starting to use forbidden sorcery (not the Nikaea kind, but actual bad kind), and that Astelan ordered that the Lion's incoming fleet be fired at first and triggering the battle that led to the splintering of the planet. Not every member of the "Fallen" was aware of the treachery and many were fighting amongst themselves before the Lion even arrived. The 40k Dark Angels behaviour is consistent with what they know of the story, since they were only left to clear up the pieces afterwards based on fragmentary information. They just aren't able to assume that some fallen are the "good guys" and others are "bad guys" they need to catch them all to find out and are willing to let those who fought against them recognise their mistake and repent. The "fallen" Cypher, whoever he may be, has actually been to the Rock openly several times in times of great importance and has been let go each time. His first appearance was to actually tell the Dark Angels successors that the Fallen were a thing, and trigger formation of the Inner Circle. Without Cypher, there would be no monolithic hunt for the Fallen. If the roles were reversed, then you'd think that the Unforgiven would have known of their guilt from the outset, and wouldn't bother expending so much effort to capture the "loyalists" alive and extract confessions from them. Not to mention that many so-called Fallen have actually succumbed to chaos and are irredeemable. And the fact that his brother Leman Russ actually understood and respected the Lion and the two became close after the Heresy, to the point that Russ mourned his passing. However, if the Lion was to wake up, he'd likely just disavow his own chapter for taking the hunt too far and neglecting their duties to the Imperium, the very same thing he stabbed Russ through the chest for in the Imperial palace. Lord Azrael is actually very aware of that exact problem with the hunt and there may be a reckoning some day that would destroy all the Unforgiven, but admits that it's gone on too long for them to actually stop until they finish. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 11:51, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Mortarion Fluff[edit]

As a Death Guard fanboy, I'm just curious where it's established that Mortarion has the biggest realm in the Eye and was the last to kneel to Abaddon. Anyone know?

It wasn't established. I was curious too so I looked up every version of the Legion War that I could find, and the articles on here about it are either very lacking, or outright false. What happened is that in the final days of the war, the Emperor's Children attacked the Sons of Horus, nearly exterminated them, stole Horus' body and destroyed their fortress. That was how the Legion War ended, everything after that is part of another conflict altogether and after that event the major infighting within the Eye of Terror ceased. The only major things Abaddon did immediately following the Legion War was to reform the Sons into the Black Legion, and then he went to destroy Horus' clones and also Fabius Bile's labs. There were never rumours that Abaddon dueled and banished Fulgrim (I don't know how that made it onto the Legion Wars page) just as there was never anything about the Primarchs and their respective legions kneeling/bowing before him in any way. Abaddon merely got the Primarchs to work with him by exchanging something, whether it was something material, a favour, or an act. The deal he specifically made with Mortarion was the Primarch stated he'd create a plague to bring the dead back to life if Abaddon would spread it across the stars. Given how common that specific plague is it was the equivalent of paying Abaddon five dollars just to get him off of Moration's lawn, and apparently Abaddon realized that too since he's never used that plague to my knowledge, just like he's never contacted Mortarion again past that (again, to the best of my knowledge). -- Triacom (talk) 02:44, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

In Talon of Horus by ADB, it specifically notes that Abaddon and the Black Legion definitely fought against Mortarion, who came closest to wiping them all out, and Magnus, whom Iskandar Khayon forced to kneel, earning himself the "Kingbreaker" title. - a lurking fag

I'll admit that I have not read the book, so was this during the Legion War, before the war, after the war, or unspecified? -- Triacom (talk) 05:16, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Edit to this comment: Talon of Horus ends with (SPOILERALERTSPOILERALERTSPOILERALERT) Armless Abby killing the Horus clone, followed by Iskandar Khayon talking about how after that, they went to earn every Primarch's support. This was prior to his first Black Crusade, where he campaigns to gain the support of the traitor primarchs. I believe this is during the Legion War, due to that. Off the top of my head, I recall nothing about a duel with Fulgrim, however, there is a duel with Swagismund - if it's anything like the ending of Galaxy in Flames it'll break my heart, since I'm such a fanboy. - the same lurking fag as above.

I've since looked up Talon of Horus (after writing my first reply), apparently him getting support of the Primarchs A) Happens after the Legion War and B) Didn't actually happen. The book makes it clear that Khayon's a lying asshole who's saying a lot to scare the Inquisition and none of the other... everything ever mention anything like that. If he did it would create a lot of problems, first and foremost would be how the Black Legion managed to survive going toe to toe with the other Legions after they were weakened before (they could barely take on the Emperor's children after the other Legions had their way with them) and it would also beg the question of why nobody else ever mentions this. -- Triacom (talk) 07:34, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Can you tell me where you got that from? I've actually read the book, and saw nothing in there to make me think Khayon is portrayed as a liar. The Black Legion didn't take on the EC, Abigail and a couple hundred Sons of Horus, World Eaters, and Thousand Sons did. This is specifically stated to be before their armor was painted black, and was also supposed to be a truthful (for 40k lore) telling of the history of the Black Legion. Not once in the novel do I see anything that makes me think Khayon is lying about the whole thing, and having read pretty much all of ADB's books, I don't see anything in them along those lines either. I can go back and pull page numbers for everything I'm talking about, where are you pulling this from?

Really? You didn't think Khayon was lying when he was talking about his Dark Eldar buddy, specifically in how he stopped Slaanesh from consuming her soul, which was absolute bullshit. Nothing remotely close to this was possible before, and if rebinding souls was that easy then literally every Eldar would do it, binding other souls to anything at hand specifically when they died without a spirit stone but before they get eaten (as if there's any sort of window) and then binding them to the infinity circuit afterwards. How about how he knew better than Ahriman about the Rubric, being somehow left behind at Prospero (because apparently he was present for everything) and also how Gyre is somehow a benign Daemon? That last one is something that is so completely impossible that in the Dark Heresy books they have an entire paragraph telling you as a GM to never do it under any possible circumstances and on its own it brings into question everything else he's talking about. I'm not exactly why you're sure that this is such a truthful telling of events, as in the final part of the book it becomes clear Khayon's telling them all this just to fuck with them.
Now as for them fighting the Emperor's Children, yes that did happen, when the Emperor's Children stole the body of Horus during the Legion War, which was also the last event of the Legion War. The sons were left in a terrible state afterwards and had to get most of their numbers back from other Legions. -- Triacom (talk) 21:24, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

All valid points, but take into consideration the entities being dealt with - these are the most favored allies/Chosen of the Chosen of Chaos, and we're well aware that the gods break their own rules in the pursuit of immensely complicated plans. Along with this, fluff shows the gods tend to allow their pawns the illusion of freedom/holding the upper hand. Would it be beyond them to allow Khayon to keep Nefertari's soul temporarily? Gyre most definitely isn't "benign" or friendly - only under Khayon's "command". The Prospero bit only shows that he was there for the Burning of Prospero, which isn't really a problem.

So Slaanesh allowed somebody who wasn't their pawn to keep a Dark Eldar soul, allowed him to banish one of its greater servants so that... what's the end game here? Nowhere in the book does it sound as if Slaanesh is allowing him to get away with his acts. There's no real benefit here, she dies later anyway and if she had been killed earlier then maybe it would have been Khayon that the Horus clone killed instead. We're given no real reason why Slaanesh would want all of this to happen, not to mention I can't think of a single other time that Slaanesh ever let anyone else claim an Eldar/Dark Eldar soul like that. Personally I find it a lot harder to believe than the thought that Khayon's just lying about everything, given what I mentioned earlier he might as well have temporarily gotten access to the Black Library, it would fit right in with everything else he claims to have done.
To Khayon Gyre's definitely both benign and friendly, which is the big problem I mentioned above. Simply put that should not happen under any circumstances, while the chaos gods like their servants they're not going to let them get away with doing whatever they want, and we've seen time and time again that the chaos gods are more than willing to devour anyone stupid enough to believe that they or their servants are friendly or even just because they feel like it, regardless of who they are (hell, that's the entire reason Daemon weapons try to kill their wielders). If you thought I meant he was benign and friendly in general, then that's my mistake and I should have been clearer. -- Triacom (talk) 22:18, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

I'm still leaning towards it being truthful, though you've pointed out some pretty blatant fluff violations. I don't think it's quite fluff rape on a Goto or Ward scale, but ADB is a better writer (not saying much, I could drag the hair on my nutsack across my phone screen and write a better novel than those hacks) and was able to rule of cool his way to a point where it's open to debate. Personally thinking the Nefertari thing was 1) to protect Khayon til he found Abbadabadoo and 2) to do it in a manner that would not make him realize he was being manipulated. Khayon finding the armless wonder is one of the most important fluff events in 40K history, but his biggest role is after that - How many other psykers could have both controlled the Tlaloc and be willing to work for/with Creed's bottom bitch? Without Khayon, I don't think the ball would have ever got rolling on the Black Crusade, making him important enough to break rules and sexually harass the fluff. I haven't ordered this wall of text as neatly as I'd like, but I'm busy and just throwing shit down as it pops in my head.

I'll agree that ADB is a very good writer, as far as scene and dialogue goes, and a lot of the bad things he writes can scoot by unnoticed because of that. Unfortunately he does have a lot of bad in his books still, take what I've already mentioned as one example, and then look at Master of Mankind for another. For some reason ADB is 100% set on the idea that the Emperor is a complete asshole extremist who was always doomed to fail, and one who only made the space marines and Primarchs as warriors and nothing else, to the point that the Emperor intentionally leaves the Butcher's Nails in Angron's brain completely unaltered. Yes he knows that Angron might be more open to the ruinous powers this way, and yes I know that removing them was stated to kill him, however I'd like to point out that the Emperor does fuck all as to trying to alter what the nails do or to suppress their effects. It's not as if he had to leave them exactly as they were, he should have easily been able to tone down their effects, if not entirely remove said effects while keeping the nails in Angron, but that's never brought up.
This is all ignoring the fact that if the Emperor only wanted warriors then he'd never have stopped using the Thunder Warriors. Those were superior to Astartes on the battlefield in nearly every single way, however the Emperor stopped using them because they were unstable super-soldiers who only excelled at killing- oh wait that's exactly what ADB stated the Emperor apparently wanted with the 12th Legion. Whoops.
Getting back to Talon of Horus for a second though, let's consider what it would take for Abaddon to make all the Primarchs bow down to him, and why he would want to do this in the first place. In the latter's case, it's actually detrimental since pissing them off would deprive him of very valuable resources, troops and create enemies where he can't afford to have any. Even the Primarchs who don't like their respective gods (Mortarion and Magnus for the most part, arguably Perturabo but he's not dedicated to anyone) would have legions of daemons to fight him with should they get mad, and fighting against them inside the eye of terror is essentially a fight that will be impossible to win since their Daemon legions will be infinite in number, whereas Abaddon's chaos marines are not (not to mention the battlefleets he'd have to fight through and the Primarch's own daemonworlds). If he was to legitimately conquer their territories and also make them bow to him, then considering how much manpower he'd need to burn through their Legions alone, the Imperium would never need to worry about the chaos space marines ever again. Seriously, this was something I had a problem with in Fall of Cadia, Abaddon's troops never stop coming, even when he should have nothing left whatsoever when you factor in all of his losses and what strength the Legions were when they entered into the eye in the first place. ADB's a good writer, but he never once bothers to explain how the chaos space marines are still so much of a threat, instead he keeps treating each and every single legion as if they still have unlimited numbers (and don't try to use the Daemonculaba excuse, that was never stated to be applied to more than Honsou's group).
This is aside from the fact that Khayon's details aren't supported in any other lore, codex or supplement, even ones written by ADB himself (seriously, Black Legion mentions none of this and that's far more 'official' than Talon of Horus). Yes there was always a clone of Horus, yes Abaddon always killed it, everything else though? Not mentioned. Unfortunately Khayon being a liar is the only way that I can look at what happens in the story as being anything except 'really well written but ultimately extremely stupid' fluff. -- Triacom (talk) 01:19, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

ADB has serious daddy issues. I think Chris Wraight has one of the best portrayals of the Emperor yet - what with him simply being so far beyond humanity - the Primarchs, even, that he seems socially retarded because there are no true equals to him. I want to see how the rest of this series plays out for sure, as it does bring up serious contradictions in fluff, and I want to see how they get handled. Also, ADB writing the duel between the new Warmaster and Sigismund sounds like a wet dream I had recently.

To be fully honest I'm getting wary whenever anyone touches the Black Templars now as pretty much everything I liked about them is gone. Their vast numbers, their style of fighting (having commanders who actually organize and direct troops instead of fight in the front lines as a short example), their beliefs, and how their whole system works has been entirely changed. Now they're basically the male versions of the Sisters of Battle. They've been downgraded to chapter-size thanks to GW corporate (I have no idea why), their commanders apparently took a few bolts to the helmet so now they fight on the front lines like everyone else. Going by the most recent gathering storm (and keep in mind, ADB's stated to have a hand in writing these) they're now kinda fine with the whole 'witches' thing, even though that was one of the chapter's most defining traits and to top it off, the Emperor's Champion, aside from having a set number of positions (which I still hold was a fucking retarded move) is now a position one can be promoted to for fuck's sake. It's a shame too since they were my favourite chapter and I'll hold up the Black Templars 4th edition codex as possibly the best codex GW's ever made. The only similarity between that codex and how they are today are the names of the characters, the chapter, and the fact that they still have the Crusader Squad (even if it works entirely differently). All that's left is for somebody to fuck up Sigismund and that'll be it for my favourite chapter.
Getting back on topic, I don't think these contradictions will ever be resolved in any sort of satisfactory way. ADB always seems to have his own vision for the 40k canon and anytime there's any sort of inconsistencies, he doesn't change whatever he wrote, he just barrels through anyway and lets the reader try to sort it all out. -- Triacom (talk) 07:05, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

Wait, what? That's horseshit. Why would EDIT: CONCERNING NEFERTARI - Reread the conversation concerning Nefertari, she never actually died - her heart was destroyed by a Keeper of Secrets, but Khayon saved her by using his power to keep her alive. So it isn't quite as bad as you thought - he didn't challenge Slaanesh or steal her soul, he got to her before that would be possible, so it fits quite a lot better now. they do that to the Templars. They are one of my favorite modern chapters for those reasons. The whole leading from the front in frothing rage thing is cool but it gets a little old after a while, was nice seeing Helbrecht shown as a great void commander but an average duellist. And EC being a promotion? It's like the people writing this shit didn't read the original fluff in the first place. They fuck Sigismund up and I might actually burn GWHQ down.

Concerning Nefertari, she still had her soul bound to her body by Khayon though. If he was to keep her alive just by using his power then he'd have literally nothing to give for any other fight he was in, let alone doing ridiculous things like banishing a Bloodthirster on his own. -- Triacom (talk) 22:12, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

Just going by feats, Khayon is OP as fuck dude. I know the Rubric was supposed to provide a massive boost to psychic power to all TS sorcerors, and that was combined with both power increasing with use & being in the eye, but the bastard is starting to sound like a primarch when I step back from just the context of Talon of Horus. He isn't necessarily binding her soul to her body, however - it's more like he forces her body to keep functioning, even after death. KoS are the (relatively speaking) weakest Greater Daemons, but they should be beyond a single Astartes - but this is fluff where inquisitors one shot skarbrand.

Yes he is OP, unless we consider that he might be lying about what he did which suddenly makes a lot of his feats more reasonable. Even as one of the weakest Greater Daemons, fluffwise they should be well beyond all of the most powerful of psykers, unless said psykers know exactly what to do to banish them (like Grey Knights), are obtaining focused power from other sources (again, Grey Knights) or the Daemon in question was made far weaker by something such as its true name. This Keeper of Secrets (I remember it does have a name but off the top of my head I can't remember it) had none of those come into play when it fought Khayon and Nefertari.
Also to be entirely fair I don't remember any fluff where Inquisitors one-shot Skarbrand. The closest I can think up is when Hector Rex fought An'ggrath. Unlike Khayon however Hector Rex has a lot of reasons for why it makes sense that he'd win that fight, even though he's weaker than Khayon and An'ggrath is far more powerful than a Keeper of Secrets. First of all he has a lot of experience under his belt and is familiar with pretty much every enemy the Ordo Malleus fights against, he's fought directly and indirectly, he has a shitload of wargear designed to help him fight daemons, he's a powerful psyker, he's had an audience with the Emperor (keep in mind, something previous books state is that coals burning in the Emperor's presence are enough to hurt daemons, let alone somebody who actually stood before him, though in both cases it's the belief and the act that hurts daemons more than anything else) and his sword was designed and blessed specifically to kill greater daemons like An'ggrath. Even with all of these in mind, before he even took on the daemon he spoke An'ggrath's name first to weaken it, allowing him to fight it on somewhat even footing and even then after all these preparations he was still nearly killed in the following duel (though he did end up winning in the end).
That's the sort of preparation and fluff that justifies having somebody fight and ultimately kill a greater daemon, not simply just banishing it with all the effort that it takes to push out a stubborn shit, and once again the only way that it makes sense to me is if Khayon's lying about his abilities as well as what happened. -- Triacom (talk) 01:46, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Just one question for you guys. It's probably not that important, but there's no mention of the developing series of the Primarchs novels on the page. They do give the reader some insight into the minds of the Primarchs, their personalities and how they think. Do you think it would be worth mentioning them in some small, closeted bulletpoint at the bottom, in passing? Khor'neth.

I don't think it would be that important to have on this page. They all think and act differently and if we added it here it would bloat it too much, so I'd suggest keeping it to their own personal articles. -- Triacom (talk) 03:23, 20 August 2017 (UTC)
Ok. As I said, it's not that important. Khor'neth.

Next Primarch to Return[edit]

Anyone got any ideas on theories on which Primarch will return next? And will other Loyalist Primarchs return at all?

It's anyone's guess now. Let's leave the speculation for when we have something solid to work from. --Newerfag (talk) 16:14, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
I’m not sure about that, I think we can narrow it down. The next traitor Primarch will probably be Angron, as he’s the only one left that gets shit done, and also is the Khorne Primarch- we’ve had the Nurgle and Tzeentch ones, so Angron is very likely. As for the loyalists, we can narrow it down to the two remaining chapters of the ‘big four’ with Primarchs that are still to return and/or are still alive: Russ and the Lion. To counter the sheer close combat prowess of Angron, it is quite likely that Russ would be released a couple of months later. Crumbles (talk) 20:33, 1 November 2017 (UTC)
Angron tried to come back to Armegeddon during the 100 year fast-forward period but you also can't forget about Fulgrim, who's been making appearances in the fluff recently. It could be either of those two. Lorgar is rumoured in the fluff to be preparing to return and Perturabo has always been around but I'd be astonished if they got around to the non-aligned daemon princes before finishing the aligned ones. IMHO, considering that he's the one responsible for this entire mess, Lorgar would really be most suited to be the final daemon primarch released to give off that final boss kind of vibe. 173.73.26.18 23:15, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Primarchs and Legions[edit]

So, who likes these boxes?--Namefag (talk) 22:27, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

They're alright. Tactical Mehren (talk) 05:08, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

They're alright, but they could use a reformatting. Maybe taking the pictures out, moving the portrait over to their name. Otherwise it just strings out the big blocks of text in the "Description" field because it doesn't have enough space horizontally. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 08:22, 22 November 2017 (UTC)
Personally, I think the "descriptions" and pictures are unneccessary. Those are better suited for the individual pages. They just seem unneccessary here for what's supposed to be a quick reference list. -- SFH (talk) 01:58, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
Personally I just though we were copying wikipedia's style on their article about the Primarchs. Tactical Mehren (talk) 02:01, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

Tarot Cards Now?[edit]

You're really reaching here, especially when a lot of the Primarchs are very similar in one way with only a crucial difference setting them apart at the end in terms of their personalities. The connections are only there on a surface level or if you try your hardest to twist it so that it fits (and even then, the website linked is still just outright wrong in a lot of ways). -- Triacom (talk) 01:27, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

When to mention the Emperor's Retcon[edit]

I'd like to bring up this bit that was added to the page:

The Emperor was a dick like that. (Or rather, he supposedly never saw the Primarchs as 'sons', just as carefully crafted tools to enforce his will and vision, so he in essence made them get at it on the double to catch up with His schedule. Which is actually even more Dickish. While this is a heavily debated take on the Emperors mindset towards his sons ita) cannot explain current canon as we know it as of now - unless GW retcons it, as it has always been emphasized that the Emperor just could not bring it upon himself to kill his former most favored son, i.e. Horus Lupercal in their final fateful duel on the command bridge of the Vengeful Spirit, and thus held back throughout almost the entire fight.. Thats nothing a living would do for his most loved hammer or screwdriver, right? So, unless there is a massive retcon of the final duel the Emperor also partially lied to himself, that his sons were merely tools to them. Also, one should not ignore the fact that his "evidence" is based on Guillimans meeting with the Emperor following his resurrection 10,000 years following the Horus Heresy. So who knows what might have changed within the Emperor himself to give his son such a "heartwarming" welcome. And b) why build living quarters for all the Primarchs if the Emperor had no plans for his "son" following the Great Crusade? It just does not make a whole lot of sense right now)

It's correct and I get the initial reason why it was removed. That being said, I feel like it covers the whole aspect of the Emperor's sons formerly being his sons and not his tools better than the current page does, especially the later mentions since they're spread throughout the page and don't quite get the same point across. Maybe it would be better to tidy up this bit and change those later mentions to be more in-line, since I feel putting it earlier is better for the article as a whole. -- Triacom (talk) 09:00, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps, although right now I don't see why there would be a problem having said mentions dispersed as they are. Perhaps for now we should wait to see how much they retcon the final duel- at this point it's almost an inevitability that it'll be drastically different from how it's been portrayed in the past (Laurie Golding said as much before), but it might give at least a hint at what the Emperor's true feelings were towards the Primarchs. Remember, none of the previous depictions of Emps have been from his own point of view but with something that important they wouldn't be able to avoid showing it. --Newerfag (talk)
But as written the page starts you off thinking that all the later bits about the Emperor actually loving his sons isn't correct, or that he's always thought of them purely as tools. The retcons being dispersed also makes the page seem inconsistent, since part of it's going on about how cold the Emperor was, then part of it has the opposite stance. I don't recall it being an issue to record in one page two separate depictions, so long as the page makes sure to mention that they're separate depictions that were either changed or retconned. -- Triacom (talk) 17:16, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
Easy to reconcile: he intended to see them only as tools when he created them, but gradually grew fond of at least some of them. Now, seeing where it lead him, he hates himself and all his decisions and is in deep denial that he actually felt anything for them. Also, he may have always seen Roboute as a tool, with the special place in his heart reserved for Horus and Hawk-boy, so Guilliman was still told the truth and has all rights to be pissed.
Again, that's at odds with what was written recently and the issue with the page is it doesn't go over this properly. -- Triacom (talk) 19:07, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

The Lion[edit]

I removed the overplayed joke about El'Jonsons loyalty. 1 because it’s overplayed as it is and 2. Because we have the Emperor saying that El'Jonson loyalty was never in question


plus lets be honest if we play this joke then we have to play the all wolves have rabbies joke (aka space wolves and lunar wolves both fell to chaos). and saying Russ is a khorne worshipper despite his home dogs carrying an axe of khorne, wulfen being mutants/demons direct from the warp and Fenris having feral spirits which are clear as day actual freaking deamons from the warp upsets some players. go figure right? but really if we poke at primarchs too hard it becomes a we all covering shit up debate and I for one actually hate that angle. emp TTS plays on it too much as it is.

Big Plan[edit]

So, apparently, all the primarchs had some role in the Great Plan, also, each embodied some aspect of E himself. I'm not very knowledgeable of their stories, so, could someoe actually fill the list? From what I know: Magnus - arrogance - to be a first Heretic and power the Throne after being captured Vulkan - compassion - ? Leman - ? - to be an executioner and capture Magnus after his betrayal Lorgar - faith - useless in his worldview/corrupt Magnus (not Horus) Angron - camaraderie (anger is caused by Butcher Nail) - none, everyone is a tool in a great plan and noone is equal to him Dorn - steadfastness - to build the empire true Perturabo - brilliance and diligence - to clean others' messes

Fanon, The Chamber at the End of Memory, and the leftover marines of the lost Legions[edit]

There's a really, really common misconception about The Chamber at the End of Memory, where people who didn't get to read the story (i.e. most people - thanks a lot for the limited release crap, Black Library) seem to think that it confirms that the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists absorbed the two missing Legions.

As someone who actually read it, it leaves it open as a possibility at best, and only since Dorn and Guilliman are confirmed to have convinced Malcador to spare the leftover Marines and mind-wipe them (it never even says what Malcador did with them after that). I think one or two people who got to read the story early on just read too much into it, ended up presenting their theories as fact on places like /r/40kLore, etc., and it spread from there.

Maybe it's worth doing a rewrite of the lost Primarch sections to try and kill this off? Mentioning the theory is fine, since it's obviously hinted at as a possibility, but it's not confirmed in the slightest, and way too many people seem to think otherwise. --45.67.96.125 14:58, 20 May 2021 (UTC)