Talk:Psyker

Psyker Hierarchy?

Remove/Re-do the list? I agree with the previous author that is is pretty stupid and incredibly subjective... some fanboys will inevitably ascribe a higher power level to the character they love most, and cite numerous fluff events as to why they think they should be at that rating so we end up with another List of Mary Sues. (I mean, who actually said Mephiston is more powerful than Njal Stormcaller & Ezekiel, but just as powerful as Tigurius? or that a normal Librarian is more powerful than a Primaris Psyker?) Instead I'd suggest simply putting up the Assignment scale from Alpha-Plus > Omega-Minus and only putting characters where they're actually supposed to be. I mean, the fluff says that humans generally can't be Alpha Plus psykers without going bat-shit insane.

Ravenor "was" (emphasis) canonically a Delta level psyker I think but he himself no longer knows what his assignment is any more, but since we see him as a protagonist in his own series people will naturally assume he's powerful as hell. by contrast; Grey Knight Brother-Captain Stern was listed as Beta level but we don't see as much epic stuff from him other than slaying daemons.--Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 07:50, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

I've never really minded the list as it is, but what you're suggesting with using the Alpha to Omega scale instead sounds a lot more appealing, and fluffy. I'm for doing that, though I don't have the sources to do it myself. --StargateNerd (talk) 12:05, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

--Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 12:50, 26 December 2014 (UTC) I'll get on that then, I originally did it for Lexicanum ages ago so I can just use my older work as a base. It'll remove a lot of the listings, since there isn't a source for pretty much all of it but it'll keep it fluffy and informative. At least it'll stop the fanboys from trolling things that can't really be proven. Turns out I had exactly the same arguments back in 2009 as well. One suggestion I do have is if people want to compare them and see if one psyker is better than another, then compare them mechanically, which is also just as valid a topic. For example: seeing how Ahriman compares to Tigurius in the mathhammer and such like.

Discipline:Telepathy

Shouldn't you remain visible to, say, a CCTV cam even if you are an accomplished telepathic psyker? Rockingpilgrim (talk) 14:42, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

Page updates

Does anyone else have any more ideas for random superfluous lists formatted in yet another different way? We have a list of types of psyker by faction in obtrusive boxes, a list of psykers by the Imperial power scale, a list of psychic disciplines, then another a list of psykers by power level. We can top this.--Namefag (talk) 04:54, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

This page needs a clean-up... badly. A good gutting is in order... especially getting rid of the subjective lists and all of the "assumed" shit where people are just assigning power levels based on what they feel like. Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 06:51, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

• Ditto on that. The Psyker page has become so convoluted with pointlessly small images and subjective power rankings that it's borderline unreadable. I had reorganized pages that was either a mess or inconsistent before, but this....this is on another level. The same can be said with the Xenos page as well, it was previously short and concise but now it suffers from a hideous formatting and subjective opinions that skews too much from the Imperium's perspective. Talk about a couple of clusterfucks. Derpysaurus

”Skews too much from the Imperium's perspective?”—97.104.193.184 17:04, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

I found little of the Psyker power section subjective, we have very good info on how strong most of these characters are since we've seen how strong people like the Emperor or Magnus or Eldrad is, so I hardly see what's difficult about it.Malignant (talk) 17:29, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

It's easy enough when it's the obviously strong characters like Emps, Magnus, Eldrad or Ahriman... but when people are simply guessing assignments for other characters it loses its objectivity. For instance: the Chief Librarians are undoubtedly powerful, but there are very few instances of them ever encountering each other, let along being compared to one another. "Assuming" they are all Beta level is a bit of a stretch. Even using old Mastery Levels isn't comparable to assignment ratings, because Arvann Stern was canonically Beta (and one of the few characters to actually have it explicitly known) but was only ML2 on the tabletop, the two things are not like-for-like. The assignment list already did a good enough job of guessing with broad strokes, rather than trying to list each and every psyker in order of hierarchy. I could point out the fact that Hector Rex was listed as Alpha level, for no other reason than he beat Anggrath. Couldn't that just be plot armour? Besides, I've been expanding the article further to explain other instances where psy rating is not the "be-all-and-end-all" of psychic strength. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 17:47, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against expanding and adding more nuance and detail, and think for the most part that's good, I just think that we can definitely create rather accurate hierarchies of psychic power too, there is definitely enough information on it to do so I feel. Maybe we can't use the ratings they use, but I certainly thinks its possible to point out in broad strokes which Psykers are stronger than others, is what I am saying. Further Plot Armour can't be ignored, as what does and does not constitute it is always gonna be tough as shit to agree on, and we shouldn't ignore what actual Fluff says. Plot Armour is still fluff, its still canonical, so I don't think it ought to be ignored at all, its part of the canon Malignant (talk) 18:02, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

I never said plot armour should be ignored, but you need to be careful about what conclusions you draw. How does beating Anggrath correlate to psy rating? Hector Rex had a fancy sword, empowered by the Emperor that does phenomenal damage to daemons, as well as having been blessed with an audience with the Emperor himself. If the plot dictates that one psyker beat another in a tempestuous duel of wills and energy, or defeats another in a subtle game of foresight and suggestion, then certainly we can say that one is better. I'm all for it. But I'm just weary about fanboys using the vaguest excuses to place their favourites higher on the list. Using broad strokes is fine, trying to pin down who beats who without comparators is just futile. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 18:29, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

If that's what you meant then sure, I can fully agree to something like that.Malignant (talk) 18:36, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

It doesn't have to be instances of direct competition between psykers, though those would be most helpful, because if one beat another, who was then beaten by a third or fourth we could easily start drawing a hierarchy together (perhaps separate from assignment ratings). Using instances where they succeed (or fail) at performing similar feats to each other helps too since it shows the extent or limits of their ability in similar situations, but you need to be careful about how much weight you put on that. Mirroring the Hector Rex reasoning: Mephiston defeated M'Kar, but Kaldor Draigo did it twice, and using that to suggest that Draigo is more powerful than Mephiston, but since Cato Sicarius and Marneus Calgar also beat M'Kar on multiple occasions its not necessarily anything to do with psychic power, but that M'Kar sucked. There are ways of doing a hierarchy of psykers, but it will probably be a laborious process. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 18:57, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, I get that completely. To be honest for your example I think a more obvious way of pointing out Draigo is the stronger Psyker is because he can literally walk through the Warp unscathed, crush Tzeentch's city, burn Nurgle's Garden, reforge and purify a Bloodthirster and also kill Slaanesh's favourite Daemonettes in the Warp, so none of this is physical all immaterial, so that seems apparent that he's the stronger Psyker. 'Sides if we use the logic that someone sucks cause they lost to a Space Marine character then every single non-Space Marine sucks. I think most of the Hierarchy's easy. Emperor's at the top, Primarchs come beneath him, then Malcador, then Ahriman and Draigo and Voldus, then Tigurius and then probably Eldrad and then Mephiston and Ezekiel and such. I'd leave Gods out of it personally, the Hive Mind too, but that's me, I'd stick to singular entities personallyMalignant (talk) 19:13, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

In Draigo's case that's more of a combination of plot armor out the ass and the Grey Knights' trademark incorruptibile pure pureness; in fact, I don't even remember seeing him ever use any powers in the fluff beyond the use of a force weapon. (Never mind the part with the bloodthirster not even being in 40K at all- that was from Age of Sigmar if memory serves.) So yeah, if we absolutely must make comparisons when we don't even know anything for sure beyond "The Emperor is the most powerful mortal Psyker", it should be only things where any other factors involved are so minor as to be irrelevant. --Newerfag (talk) 19:49, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Plot Armour doesn't matter, if he can literally sustain himself in the immaterial realm of the Warp for centuries and still defeat among the greatest servants of the Chaos Gods on their own home turf then that is what he can do, Plot Armour doesn't matter for it anymore then it matters for the Swarmlord or Phoenix Lords being chumps. You're right about the bloodthirster part though, I mixed it up with AoS, apologies, he just kills them. Well we know several things. We know the Emperor is beyond all of them, any Primarch Psyker too, we can also point out Ahriman's stronger than Yvraine, Kyasudras and the Yncarne and such, so there's enough to work with to create a hierarchy, we can point out Librarians are higher than Warlocks, Warlord Psi-Titans stronger than Eldar Psi-Titans, we can't make a comment about every single possible match up, sure, but there is more than enough to make quite a few statementsMalignant (talk) 19:59, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Even so, since we know only the bare minimum about the criteria needed to fit in each category, it would ultimately boil down to a dick-measuring contest due to it looking like an arbitrary power level list. Even in your own examples, everything beyond your listing of Emps and the psychic Primarchs as most powerful (which has been backed up by enough sources to make it reliable) is far too subjective to make into a functional hierarchy. Unless I see something by GW itself saying something along the lines of "Librarians are more powerful than Warlocks", I have no choice but to assume the only thing backing it up is your own opinion. On top of that, it's the Imperial scale. It was not meant to be applied to xenos in the first place. --Newerfag (talk) 20:23, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

and remember that Horus also passed physically into the realm of the Chaos Gods, defeated their champions and claimed the allegiance of their armies. Primarchs may be warp powered but Horus wasn't especially psychic. Horus may have been unwittingly doing the bidding of the gods during his visit, but is Draigo actually having any lasting affect on them either? Like I said, there is a lot to consider to each instance and it may not automatically lead itself to the fact that characters are more powerful psykers, but that they have particular accomplishments. If it must be done like Newerfag says, then use like-for-like comparisons where they are only minor differences. Is walking through the warp at the sufferance of chaos comparable to beating a 10,000 year old psychic curse inflicted by chaos that affected literally hundreds of thousands of others who failed to overcome it? Not remotely comparable, though both are epic achievements. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 20:31, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

And for the record, the fluff all but explicitly answers Dark Angel's first question with a resounding "no" since all the damage Draigo does is repaired instantly. The comparison issue gets especially silly when you try to compare psykers whose methods and disciplines are radically different, like a Warlock and a Weirdboy.--Newerfag (talk) 20:38, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

I believe the "Everything is canon, but not everything is true" is applicable to the ratings system though. Yes, it's a fairly Imperial system, not meant to be applied to the xeno, but it's the only one we've got from an in-universe source. I would think an Imperial system, even for psykers, would be shaded towards humans-being-best, though. Isn't it fluffy that Eldar spend literally decades on paths JUST to channel their capabilities in a non-destructive manner? How does the Imperial system apply when you have a species that, theoretically implied by just un-restrained/pathed training, could out-combat-butler any animoo human character in a matter of years (and then presumably bring about a 5th warp god of primness, bloody butterknives and crustless cucumber sandwiches?) -2001:56A:F107:D500:C9:CDC9:FE67:7601 20:42, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

That's the other problem, we know so little about the one system we do have information about that it's little more than a power level list. Heck, several of the ratings are virtually indistinguishable from each other (E.G. Gamma vs Delta). --Newerfag (talk) 20:54, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

I think beyond Emperor/Primarchs is far from wholly subjective. Mephiston's shown the power to destroy hundreds of enemies at a time in his novel and Tigurius has literally simply got a better track record for precognition than Eldrad, so I definitly think its far from lacking any evidence whatsoever. Even Warlocks themselves have never, to my knowledge, ever even been made similar to Librarians at all, I mean in the crunch (though I know that's far from a perfect representation) Warlocks are not even as strong as Primaris Psykers. But, to be clear, it doesn't matter to me, I don't particularly care about creating an explicit list, simply commenting on the characters within their own sections is fine to me. Also I'd imagine Horus post Molech is going to have amazing Psychic power considering what he has to later on, yes. I'm not exactly sure what 10 000 year old curse is being refered to, could you tell me? Also I'm sorry but Eldar could never out-combat-butler any human character, that's made very clear by the fluff lots of times. Even their gods are pathetically weak. Malignant (talk) 21:32, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

On an unrelated note, all the giant lists have been removed. They did nothing but clutter the page. --Newerfag (talk) 20:38, 13 November 2017 (UTC)