Talk:Rogal Dorn

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I have a question about the way the mathhammer was carried out. Did it take into account that all of the rolls to wound Dorn that were higher than a 3 should have failed to wound ala auric armor? Wouldn't that mean that he would have been wounded on a 2 only or am I misunderstanding the way that the rule works?

  • The Auric Amour doesn't work like that; it simply doesn't allow a wound to be taken by Rogal on less than a 3+ (as in: even if you would wound him on 2+, you still only wound on 3+) and that was indeed taken into account. Hekaloth (talk) 12:36, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Rogal's youth[edit]

We probably should put something in about Rogal's pre emps history, since most of the other primarchs have something about that. Plus Rogal did kind of rule a small solar empire before handing it over to the emps.Dragoon508 (talk) 12:11, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Damn, I don't normally post responses to stuff but that essay that was just posted made all my questioning as to whether I had picked the right legion vanish and brought a manly tear to the corners of my eyes.

That was really well written and insightful, made me rethink a bit on the fists, although they were my favorite legion to begin with.Dragoon508 (talk) 20:43, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Primarch vs Primarch Update[edit]

The PvP table need to be redone for the new rules for Rogal; looking forward to how powerful he is now! I won't mess with it; I'm afraid I'll screw it up. TheWiseDane (talk) 23:44, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

He got buffed in the newer books? How so? -- Triacom (talk) 00:08, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
It's coming in on the page itself, but I can write it here as well - Of what we see, it's mostly Storm's Teeth that get's a facelift. It looses Unwieldy (about goddamn time) and gains an ability that lets Rogal gain 1+ Attack and lose -1 Initiative for every model in base contact with him. I guess that'll ruffle up the scores. TheWiseDane (talk) 00:14, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
I'm just guessing right now, but I don't think the +1 Attack'll help him all that much, it might make him roughly even with Perturabo, and maybe he'll have a leg up on Curze and Corax (who can still hit&run) but aside from that I doubt it'll change any other outcomes. At least he's become more useful overall and is now actually good at taking down large groups, since before he'd get swarmed by a cheap mob and all you could do is look at him and shake your head. -- Triacom (talk) 04:55, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Dorn's Death[edit]

I just wanted to make note, that recent fluff establishes that Dorn might not actually be dead. It said somewhere that when reinforcements finally arrived at his position, all they found was a severed fist. They took it, kept it in stasis, and have been scrimshawing it with the names of each Chapter Master ever since. Not sure on the source for this though. (Anon) 09:26, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

In the Hunt for Vulkan, Vulkan says that he will speak well of Koorland to Dorn implying that he is alive, The 8th Edition Codex Space Marines mentions only his fist being enshrined and one of the Battlefleet gothic rulebooks says the same. There was a book that has been retconned I believe that stated they had his whole skeleton, not sure on the name. Personally as of rn it I think he is alive just minus a hand.--JizzKing (talk) 07:44, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Just want to add that when Dorn killed Alpharius he first cut off his hands. Now in fluff the only recovered part of Dorn is a severed hand, coincidence or a message left behind by whoever took the rest?

The "Who is Dorn?" part[edit]

I'm not too sure about that part. It's an in-depth character analysis done in the first person, which is not our style. Feels like part fanfiction too. Not only that, it's about the length of the rest of the page. I think it should either be removed or moved to its own page. What about you guys? - Biggus Berrus (talk) 10:33, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Personally, I like it. It does a really, really good job of explaining the Imperial Fists' chapter/legion mentality, and it does a much better job of explaining the motivations of the fists around the heresy than any other source I've seen. I don't know how many times I've seen people on /tg/ or at the LGS dismiss the Imperial Fists as being boring emos, and dismiss Dorn as being a stupid, bullheaded primarch. I always want to tell them to stop and consider the events from within the mentality of the legion; that they obviously knew what they were doing when they walked into the Iron Cage, and that doing it made sense given their identity as a legion. The section may be a bit drawn out, but its more insightful than anything on any of the other chapter pages, and if it being too long is the issue, well it is in a dropdown box. Also, you're worried that it isn't done in our style?... This wiki has no unified style, dude. Josman (talk) 13:08, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
I second Josman here. It's not markedly different in style from the "Why Everything is so Grimdark" section on the Adeptus Mechanicus page; the first-person isn't significant enough to warrant moving it, or especially getting rid of it altogether. I agree that it's a little long, so a good middle ground is to make it a collapsible, like the primarch on primarch fight table. If you're going to start deleting things that seem like fanfic, the Abaddon, Indrick Boreale, and Creed pages are going to lose about 70% of their girth. --Boss Ballkrusha (talk) 19:44, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
Not sure if I'm doing this correctly; you have my apologies if not. I'm the author of the rambling in question. The style probably sticks out from the rest of the Wiki because it was originally posted on the Bolter&Chainsword forum in a thread discussing "the best legion". It's written from first-person perspective because I was talking about my personal thoughts about Dorn and the Imperial Fists. This is also why it may have a "fanfiction" feel to it, as a lot of it is personal interpretation and extrapolation from the lore available at the time (which wasn't that much). I never intended it to be taken as fact, but wanted to offer a counter-point to those who were casually dismissing the VII Legion in the thread, and offering my interpretations of Dorn and his motives. The length is just a result of being long-winded. I wrote that post on a smart phone in the middle of the night and, as I said originally, it had been something I'd sat on for a while. A little inspiration hit me and I typed it all out. Most of my posts on the B&C are quite long. I'm glad someone put it in a dropdown because, yes, otherwise it would hog the page too much. Just wanted to offer a little perspective as to why it might stick out compared to the general style. -- User:Darrell (User talk:Darrell)
That's some damn good writing for middle of the night smartphone work. Well done. Given the style and flow (and "generous" interpretation of the fists) I though it was something ADB had written up that someone had copied here. Josman (talk) 04:40, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
Alright, I've done some changing. I have no problems if the stuff stays: I just moved it down the page a bit. - Biggus Berrus (talk) 08:34, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

Phanta Claws?[edit]

Should this page contain the fact that Don put Phanta Claws on Necromunda and charged him with his mission?

Why the fuck are people so determined to keep the idiotic If The Emperor Had a Text-To-Speech Drive quote?[edit]

Too many quotes bog down the page, and the ones that are there should either actually be funny or give serious insight into the character. Mystery (talk) 23:39, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

  • The fact that the particular quote has been around for ages highlights that is quite funny. Tyranid Memestealer (talk) 23:43, 7 May 2017 (UTC)
Either that or it shows they don't care. Personally I didn't care enough to remove it since I decided to let whoever put it up have their fun, but if we were to put it to a vote, I'd vote no on every single ETtSD quote. -- Triacom (talk) 02:25, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
It is not funny for anyone who didn't dig into ItEhTtSD, and it doesn't give any useful information. I agree with Triacom. To be honest, the whole series is friggin' fanfic, and not very good at that, imo, so why would someone put quotes from it at the beginning of most Primach's pages? Damn, maybe I should write a fanfic too and put quotes from it all over the wiki? --Flutist (talk) 16:42, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
At some point, 1d4chan became Uncyclopedia and started putting tangentially relevant quotes on every page. The pro-quotes won the edit wars. The TTS quotes are at least related to the subject matter.--97.104.199.133 04:06, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

Angron did what?[edit]

Ok, im going to be that guy here but...were in the fluff said Angron kill him? most fluff said he die in the first black crusade attacking a despoiler class but that it, there is nothing saying Angron have any part of it, it look something some angron fanboy put to said he is badass.

Nowhere in the fluff does it say that Angron killed him, and nowhere on the page does it say that. It says that it would make more sense if it was Angron, though I'm pretty sure Angron was also never mentioned in Dorn's demise. -- Triacom (talk) 06:51, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
"Rogal got in a big-ass ship and got pwned by Angron in the first Black Crusade,therefore proving that RAGE ends all things and how Angron is among the only Chaos Primarchs that actually gets anything done these days" so yes, it said angron did it them it praise for it and them it said it made no sense when it reallity the whole thing was never mention in canon, it seen people really got confuse here, we should remove that part--Estegio (talk) 01:46, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
No, it says Angron beat him, and it says that Khorne Berzerkers killed him. I don't know where they got the bit about Angron beating him from, but the bit about the Berzerkers is at least true. -- Triacom (talk) 01:49, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
Where in the fluff does it say this, just curious b/c I haven't heard that before.--JizzKing (talk) 08:50, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

The "Rogal Dork, the retarded son" Article[edit]

What in guilliman's fucking gallbladder is this, keep your beef for the fists off the site.--Nuln Oil (talk) 00:12, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

I say get rid of it. Not only is it badly written, but I'm certain a couple of the points are just wrong. Polux might have defeated Perturabo at Phall, but it would have certainly depleted the Imperial Fists forces even more which I'm sure is even pointed out in the story, so it was the choice between a costly victory or a consolidated retreat. Polux couldn't be blamed for following the order without the full information of what's happening elsewhere in the galaxy, it's not a case of blindly following in the same sense as being implied. I'm also certain that Rogal Dorn didn't interfere with the Execution Force in Nemesis and the mission failed on it's own merits without Dorn's involvement (the book was only subtitled "War within the shadows", so the author got that wrong too) I haven't fully read Praetorian of Dorn, but the way this article is written with paraphrased statements it's very difficult to follow. In any case, the unnamed "short story" (actually titled Hands of the Emperor, for those looking for it) definitely shows the Imperial Fists being stubborn and blockheads, but it needs to be pointed out that it was the Custodians who sought engagement over the issue when it was agreed by all that Rogal Dorn was going get his authorisation anyway, so the issue was a bureaucratic formality and the Custodians were prepared to bring the whole plate down just to stop them from doing it early; so who is more blockheaded, the Imperial Fists? or the Custodians? Captain Katafalque even lectures the Custodians on their recklessness at the end of the story. The fact that the Imperial Fists are stubborn is not new, it doesn't really need a lengthy article of vague/paraphrased evidence to point it out. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 08:22, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
I'm sorry but what you are writing is plainly wrong. You should probably re-read the mentioned books. It's clearly stated that Polux took horrible casualties by retreating from the battle of Phall. Far more that he would have by continuing and winning the battle. Polux himself admits that it's a bad call but he feel forced to comply. Other than the losses, Polux forces get scattered, many ending up in imperium secundus. The retribution force is basically entirely lost. Also the Execution Force fails because Horus is warned - strongly implied by Rogal Dorn - and sacrifices a captain to be killed instead of himself. Again, re-read the book. The last story is a little bit more debatable since you can argue that the custodes were also stubborn (but you can also argue that it's how you watch airspace, with fixed procedures. Try to fly over Washington without following every procedure to the letter and tell me how it goes). But still, the point is that the whole mess started because Dorn (of all people!) could not be bothered to follow procedure BEFORE giving the order. This is not about Fists stubborness, but about Dorn's uncanny ability to always take the bad decision. Phas (talk) 10:03, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
Just to back up what I'm saying. Don't argue with me, argue with the GW writer that did this. 10:17, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
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What a stupid thing to say, as if you don't take ownership of what you've written. Phall still can't count as evidence towards Dorn or his sons, because Polux didn't have the information to make the decision. The very page you use as evidence shows Polux struggling with Dorn's order as he ponders whether the traitors have made it to Terra already. In fact the book Horus Heresy III says exactly the same thing and examines how Polux was ignorant of the facts and could have won - but to credit your own argument the Imperial Fists obedience condemned and worked against them, which might work as a better article on the Battle of Phall or more broadly on the Imperial Fists pages rather than here, because there is more to it than Dorn just being a retarded dork as you put it. By the same token, the Custodians are exactly the same with their blind obedience, and Dorn calls then out on it in a later short story "Magisterium" when Valdor argues that the orders he recieved were inviolable, so pointing this out for the Fists is hardly special. Also I did have another look at Nemesis, and couldn't find anything about how Dorn somehow warned Horus, but if true could be expanded into its own section. What might be better is a complete rewrite of how Dorn's decisions cost them key victories during the Horus Heresy, WITHOUT the useless hyperbole, but ALSO put into context of the Emperor's foreknowledge, in that big E knew that Rogal Dorn could have taken out Horus early-on but would have caused them to lose the war. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 10:39, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
That's just what's passing through Polux mind. But a commander should make decisions based on the intel he has, not on the intel he has not. Also, as Polux stated in the next paragraph, he condemned the whole Retribution Force. This means that his own argument is invalid since he must know that the ragtag force that he manages to extricate from the battle cannot be a meaningful defense from terra. The book is very clear. This is a bad decision. Polux fully knows that it's a bad decision. But he makes it because is the most direct way to follow his orders. Which is really a bad way for a commander to think, as we learned in WW1. This is not my own interpretation, it's basically the whole idea of "the battle of phall" and behind the novella. --Phas (talk) 10:56, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
HH3 also posits that the timing of Dorn's message was possibly more to do with the will of Horus dark allies, so it muddies the argument of whether Dorn is a retarded dork who makes bad decisions if his enemies are able to manipulate his communications to their advantage. Again, this article can be expanded into something of higher quality. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 10:51, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
You can rewrite this to be more analytical and less mocking. But the bad decisions are there. --Phas (talk) 10:56, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
Also, the fact that the enemy might fuck your comms up is exactly one of the reasons why you train your commanders to independently evaluate their situation and make their own decision, instead of blindly follow orders. My point exactly. --Phas (talk) 11:00, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
I initially wanted to rewrite the part to be less meme and more substance because I started to think there were some seriously legitimate points to be made, but I did some reading and looked into it, and most of the points fell away. I had something like the following few paragraphs in mind for a replacement, but i'm either biased, or one of us in misinformed. I suggest we just delete this section as it mostly just perpetuates falsehoods about a character critical to 40k.
Lets not kid ourselves, Dorn has some flaws. His legion, The Imperial fists, are best best characterized by their strict adherence to discipline and order in their organization. While this behavior could be beneficial at times, the lack of flexibility in their command has had its consequences.
In the Horus Heresy book series during the Battle of Phall, an Imperial Fists fleet led by Alexis Polux was ambushed by an Iron Warrior Fleet. Outnumbered, Polux managed to hold off the Iron Warriors and even turned the tide of battle. It was at this moment that a message from Dorn back on terra reached Polux. This message was an order for Polux to retreat and bring the fleet back to terra as soon as possible. Polux had to decide between destroying the Iron Warrior fleet, and saving terra which may very well be currently falling, and he decided to follow Dorn's order to retreat to terra for fear that he was urgently required. Ultimately this was a poor decision, as the Iron Warriors escaped, but it was a decision acted upon with incomplete information and Polux felt obligated to simply follow the orders of the primarch.
In "Deliverance Lost", there is an example that runs against the trend of The Fist's inflexibility. Imperial Fist Captain Noriz, commanding a transport fleet of 150 marines delivers 2,000 suits of Mark VI "Corvus" armor to the devastated Raven Guard legion of around 3,000 that is in the process of rebuilding from the Drop Site Massacre. Noriz uses his initiative and decides that instead of rejoining the 40,000 Imperial Fists force on Terra after months of transit, he offers his service to the Raven Guard in order to make a more significant difference.
In "Nemesis: War within the shadows", Rogal Dorn Intercepts word of the misdoings of the rogue assassinorum alongside their hand in numerous disasters that resulted in the deaths of billions and the destruction of entire planets. At first, he follows the law and decides to simply observe and make notes of the assassinorum, but when he finds piles of evidence for the horrible results the assassinorum turned out, he decided to bust into one of their meetings and before he can do anything too rash, the emperor steps in and agrees to organize the assassinorum into the officio assassinorum with some actual oversight.
--Nuln Oil (talk) 13:17, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
This ignores a series of facts. 1) It ignores the fact that Polux is acutely aware that retreating is a poor decision and ultimately takes it only because obedience to his primarch. This is stated multiple times in the novella and it's the central core of the story. 2) That Rogal Dorn likely warned Horus of the impending assassination attempt. This is a powerful event, borderline treason. If you want to make a more balanced portrait of Dorn in the Heresy, you should conterbalance the bad decisions with good decisions, like maybe the fact that he didn't rush te invasion of Mars. This way you are just deleting facts. --Phas (talk) 14:22, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
1) Polux knew it was a poor tactical decision to retreat, but he was thinking in the grand scheme of things. He received a message from Terra that had the force to kill "a fleet's worth" of astropaths. Any commander given this basic level of information would be well within their means to assume the worst and return to terra as he was in command of a sizable chunk of The Imperial Fist's Ships. 2) This is nothing but blatant speculation. To assume that Dorn would, let alone could, warn Horus of the plot is absurd. just look at the following lines from Nemesis:
"Efried listened and nodded. “We could intervene. Confront Valdor and the clade masters.” “Based on what, captain?” Dorn shook his head again. “I have only hearsay and suspicion. If I were as reckless as Russ or the Khan, that might be enough… But we are Imperial Fists and we observe the letter of Imperial law. There must be proof positive.” “Your orders, then, sir?” “Have the serfs maintain their observations,” Dorn looked up into the darkening sky. “For the moment, we watch and we wait.”"
This is the only line that so much as mentions Dorn in the book until the very end when he bursts into the chambers of the assassinorum meeting. It has him simply collecting evidence and waiting. When he shows up at the end, there isnt anything about him tipping off Horus--Nuln Oil (talk) 14:44, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
I'm cool with that. It leaves room to be expanded upon later too --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 13:25, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
Obedience to the primarch is not a bad thing. Soldiers OBEY orders from their commanders. In the absence of information Polux had to make a choice, this is also stated across MORE than one source, not just the novella. The fact it was a bad decision makes neither of them retarded dorks. It just illustrates how that obedience can be used against them as posited in the the books themselves and quite literally could have been used against anyone. Change your argument from how Rogal Dorn and his men are retarded and explore it more carefully. If Rogal Dorn really warned Horus, the he definitely has done something traitorous, but you need to provide evidence of how, more than just one sentence. "Implied" is just lazy. --14:55, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
Adding my two cents and some material from Praetorian of Dorn, a point brought up in the edit but not yet discussed.
‘Why did we not know? Why did you not tell us of what might come for us?’ ‘I did not know on which world the blow would fall. There are twenty-one worlds with garrisons just like yours scattered before the path we thought the orks might take. And would the preparations that you made have been any less diligent if you had known? Would the forces at your disposal have been stronger from knowing, or weaker from expecting a blow that might not come? What if another threat had come to this place while you were expecting the orks?’
The tl;dr of the tactics is the Fists, already prepared as always, held and fortified the line on the fly for hours. Rogal then shows up with 10% of the legion, uses the time to set up a makeshift Iron Cage out of the terrain, and crushes the clustered orkz. The larger strategy is that Rogal had 21 "warning beacons" and ALL of them needed to be "ready enough" to hold the line because if the orkz slipped through even one, that's one planet feeding them to swell in size.
There are, of course, ways to argue this (take a more aggressive approach, keep your officers informed, strip-mine the planets and raise bastions of gun-walls, etc.), but this is at least the internal logic he's following. Not so much "It wouldn't make a difference" but "You were as ready as you were going to be, but if I'd told you then you might be second-guessing where you should be and what you should be doing, which is BAD for a sector-wide strategy".
Was Dorn on point with any of these? Maybe, maybe not, but at least this presents them as the novel intends so that we can decide if it's accurate.--TheWriteStuff (talk) 15:52, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
Yeah except that at the beginning of the flashback, Archamus is walking outside the bastion with an iterator, drawing the foundation of his new fortress on paper and debating philosophy of... fortress building. He wasn't prepared for the orks attack and he nearly got himself and the iterator killed for that. The whole garrison was taken by surprise because they thought that they were fortifying a pacified planet and have all the time in the world. That's what makes that question and Dorn answer, so stupid. Granted, it's possibly "bad writing" more than anything, but still. --Phas (talk) 15:59, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
I agree with your points and I think this part is just too poorly written, widely false, and too many half truths are present to continue on the page. I'm going to just remove it and if anyone else has any deep concerns, or wishes to rewrite it with more accurate information, I welcome it.--Nuln Oil (talk) 16:06, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
Just to add my two cents as well, a fortress preparing for attack is always going to be better prepared to fight one than a fortress that is still in the midst of being built, especially when the people in charge think they can take time off. The Fists on that planet very obviously were not "as ready as they were going to be". Secondly, Polux wasn't thinking of the larger scheme when he retreated, if he was then he would've killed Perturabo since he was the traitor's best shot at breaking the Imperial Palace's defenses. Without him they'd be stalled, if not outright stopped, by the Palace's walls. -- Triacom (talk) 20:28, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
Given how many of his own officers Perturabo kills in fits of autistic rage, letting him live might have done even more damage to the Iron Warriors in the end. --97.125.165.130 21:29, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
Seeing as how he was the one in charge of breaching the palace, I highly doubt it. There would also be no Iron Cage without Perturabo. -- Triacom (talk) 21:51, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
Yes, thank you! These two facts are quite evident. The thing with the orks, I guess is just bad writing. But the battle of Phall, is not. It's a really nice story. And when Polux mentions the idea that the enemy might be on Terra, that's just his internal monologue. Ho doesn't focus on that and then he thinks "that's Dorn's will" and at that point, he makes the decision. If he analyzed the situation from the point of view of Terra being in danger, he would have concluded that it would be best to kill the Iron Warriors and then move to Terra, instead to get fucked and let the Iron Warriors keep on unopposed. But it's not why he made the decision. He made the decision because he was trained to always obey order to the letter. Apparently we are to ignore this because it makes Dorn look bad, but that's what GW writers wrote. --Phas (talk) 17:11, 19 July 2020 (UTC)