Talk:Sanguinius

Anyone know when Daddy gets his rules? Been waiting for what feels like forever.

Can't say definitively, but whenever Angelus comes out seems as good a guess as any.

Page is AWESOME

Feel like he needs the awesome sauce banner as this is /tg/‘s primarch.

Gave it a read through, a little dry and a little short, but definitely deserving imo. --Kracked Mynd (talk) 05:47, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Talon of Horus

I have 2 issues with the bit on Sanguinius ghost/soul/crystal. All the ghosts on the vessel were sudden or violent deaths. (As far as we know.) No word that deaths after the Siege actually matter enough to create ghosts. One other thing is Khayon DID swear to tell the truth in his account. Yeah I know "Chaos is bullshit" thing, but even if he's lying why lie about crystal ghosts? Big fuckin' deal. Vengeful Spirit has a paranormal Sanguinius garden gnome. So pivotal. He tells the truth about getting his ass kicked 5 times by a Death Guard wannabe. Seems that would be worth more to lie about.

I quoted the exact line from Black Legion where it says all deaths make crystal ghosts, and there's two reasons why this matters. The first is because there are so many deaths (even if we only count the violent ones) on the ship it should be literally impossible to walk around on it, and the second is because it's just another bit of bullshit to make Khayon into more of a Mary Sue, since the only purpose it serves is to give him a weapon made from the same stuff that embodies a Primarch (almost as if he has a god complex), which is also so good a weapon it apparently cuts through similar weapons without issue. Makes you wonder why the Black Legion don't make every weapon they have out of the stuff. As for him getting his ass kicked, that only happens because his super-powerful Daemon BFF was with him, since according to him, there's no way he'd lose if his opponent didn't cheat. -- Triacom (talk) 15:28, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Something else I forgot to add is that saying there's a psychic ghost aboard the most hated flagship of all time is a really easy way of mocking his interrogators, which is another reason he could be (and likely is) lying about it. -- Triacom (talk) 15:32, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

It just doesn't make sense though. Ooh there's a ghost on a flagship and I'm dereatable by Daemonhosts. I have so much over you Inquisition. Not to mention we take his testimony as fact about literrally every other relevant page. -Trognador.

It not making sense is exactly why I'm saying he's probably lying and just saying it to piss them off and/or make himself sound even more special. As for taking his other testimony at face value, we don't. The bit about the Black Legion forcing all the traitor Primarchs to bow to Abaddon is no longer on the Primarch page for example because that would've been impossible for the Black Legion to accomplish. The confrontation with clone Horus is also still here just because it's a fan favourite, and not because it's something that likely happened (especially something as bullshit as catching Worldbreaker). -- Triacom (talk) 15:45, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

This really should be on Khayon's discussion lol. But I was trying to say sure Khayon could be lying, but to what motivation? If trying to prove his own might why tell of Daravek's method of beating him? Why tell the Inquisition about crystalline ghosts? Who the fuck does he think cares? Oh yeah my sword is made from a piece of a crystal statue of the best primarch so my sword is so super good, and I'm so super good. Btw plenty of guys are able to defeat me and if you bind a daemon really close to me you can control me and Abbadon is way cooler. If he's talking up Abbadon, sure. But even then his motivation to lie is a bit skewed. (Also: it does seem according to the Black Legion Codex that Magnus refused to actually meet Abbadon for SOME REASON.)

Khayon's whole motivation for turning himself in is to fuck with the Imperium, claiming there's a ghost of Sanguinius aboard the Vengeful Spirit would do exactly that. As for your impression of Khayon, that's pretty much how he portrays himself, that he's super-powerful and special, that you can only beat him if you're cheating or the Warmaster, and that's why you should be really scared of Abaddon, because he beat Khayon. Also Magnus not meeting with Abaddon means nothing. -- Triacom (talk) 16:23, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

So your reasoning as to why he provides info on his losses is that Khayon is a power gamer?

Basically, yes. Why else would he have a Dark Eldar waifu who's a scourge and incubus, or a stupid powerful Daemon buddy who'd never turn on him, or a deck he can summon greater daemons from? -- Triacom (talk) 16:42, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

• Speaking in his defense, we do have Khayon appear or speak on events that are confirmed to happen. He is mentioned in a HH-short story (The Abyssal Edge) belonging to one of the swordsman oders. (Sevatar hasn't heard of him but is told that he exists.) One of the Custodes novels refers to him as a prisoner later. And the Battle of Harmony does happen, so he certainly has lived the entire time. It would make sense objectively to say Khayon is a powerful sorceror. He must have been to survive. His familiar staying isn't even unique to him. A Dark Eldar in the Eye of Terror does make sense: who of her race would follow her there? She till does her torture/soul-leeching. And sure Khayon has a combat familiar. Not hugely unique or unusual. If a deck used to contain Daemon essences works, why not? I'll still say sure a bit Suish and possibly lying but about Everything? The Inquisition wouldn't believe him anyway. If so, are they gonna send a message to the Blood Angels about it? Even then Khayon's sword is good but his pistol is Archeo-tech and neither are so good that they eclipse other weapons like the Black-Sword or the Talon. Abbadon doesn't just take Sacramentum becuase its better. "The truth, as always, is in the grey."

I'm not arguing whether or not he exists, he clearly does, I'm just saying that his version of events are bullshit. I'm also not saying he isn't a powerful sorcerer, I'm saying that he's lying when he claims to be powerful enough to easily banish a bloodthirster (relatively anyway) or when he claims he brought Magnus to his knees. A Dark Eldar in the Eye of Terror does not make sense, she'd be extremely vulnerable to Slaanesh or any of his minions and Khayon's way of preventing her from dying is also bullshit, though that's covered more on his own page. His familiar is bullshit because (even if we ignore how stupidly overpowered his familiar is to the point that it's basically a greater daemon) you cannot befriend a daemon, period. This is something that is such a core rule to the setting that even the RPG rulebooks point out to DM's, under no circumstances will daemons willingly put themselves below anything else other than their patrons and other daemons, which Khayon is not. A deck that contains bound Daemon essences shouldn't work because Daemons are in a constant fight against whatever is using the form they were bound into, and Khayon acts as if he's holding a Yugioh deck without any indication of any sort of struggle from the daemons bound within. Hell, normally Chaos Lords only have one bound daemon on their person at any time because the strain of holding them in check is so taxing yet Khayon acts as if it doesn't exist. As for his sword being great, it's a pretty big deal if the Black Legion have access to a material that goes right through power weapons and all forms of armour that it deals with, let alone that they have access to it in such a huge amount they could've not only had their entire legion's melee weapons be made of the stuff, but they might as well have bolter shells made from it. Writing them off because they're not as good as two of the best weapons in the setting isn't a fair thing to do. -- Triacom (talk) 17:26, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

• Khayon's sword is made from shards of Sanguinius's sword so not that crazy. And Khayon does feed Nefetari in slaves for that reason. The deck of cards isn't really explained. Perhaps the cards just contain the ritual psychic power to draw them out. It's definitely main character specialness but not game-wrecking bullshit. At leasy IMO.

I'll give you the sword but not Nefetari as her soul should've been devoured when she died, and no rite or amount of sacrifices should allow it to remain bound to her body, let alone while they're in the Eye of Terror. Hell with the sacrifices they would normally need to do if she was a normal Dark Eldar that would end up attracting Slaanesh's minions, not placating it. The deck is flat out game-wrecking bullshit since he might as well be holding multiple "I win" buttons. -- Triacom (talk) 20:40, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

• Unless Nurgle or Tzeentch were busy trolling Slaanesh right then lol. Yeah seriously with godly intervention you never know. I actually wondered for a second if she is actually a shard of Itzara's soul. Or Khayon's mental projection of her. Psychological issues are best writing issues. Tbf to the deck thing the Ragged Knight goes "fuck you sorceror" and Khayon is nervous to use it. And he never said "it's time to d-d-d-d-duel!"

That's why I said one of his minions. There are more Daemons in the warp than humans in the galaxy so the chance that it attracts none is zero. Psychological issues do make for good writing, too bad the book doesn't paint it as if that's the case isn't it? He also doesn't have much trouble in banishing the Ragged Knight and he might as well have said exactly that. -- Triacom (talk) 20:58, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

• except banishing him was like a major action scene. Telemachon, Lheor and Gyre were ripping into the Ragged Knight the whole time. And Khayon doesn't mention the Nefetari-soul projection thing cuz he doesn't KNOW it.

That's why I earlier said it was relatively easy (admittedly I forgot to do it here) because a sorcerer trying to banish a Bloodthirster like that would've been impossible in any other book. -- Triacom (talk) 21:21, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

• • Well you said Gyre was like a greater daemon so she must have helped. Honestly idk if it a true Bloodthirster since it feels described to me closer to a daemon prince-sized Daemon but idk. I'll have to reread it. I'm certain Sanguinius "ghost" is real. Not sure if every possible death creates a ghost. Sang's death was fairly important and would resonate in the warp more. Though also possible lesser sorcerors can banish the lesser ghosts. ADB needs to write more books in the series.

If Gyre really was a greater daemon then the Ragged Knight would not have been needed, but that's a separate issue in that Gyre's as strong as the story demands. As for the ghosts, it's outright stated in Black Legion that every death creates a ghost. As for 'banishing' them, you can't banish what isn't there, the 'ghosts' are warp echoes, not actual spirits which is also stated in Black Legion. Personally I think he needs to stop writing these books because the only way it's possible to make sense of them is to make a lot of assumptions, like what you're doing. -- Triacom (talk) 22:12, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

math hammer

Where does 30K Sanguinius stack up against his other primarchs in battle? can somebody find out?

I'm sure we'll find out when his stats are released. -- Triacom (talk) 05:33, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Did the math real quick between him and Horus, for anyone who's curious. On his own Sanguinius cannot beat Horus, if you take the Angel's Wrath Rite or War (fitting) and the Spear of Telesto however then he beats the shit out of Horus, making him the only Primarch capable of winning against him after Russ was heavily nerfed. As a quick example, by the end of round 3 Horus has lost about 4 and a half wounds, purely because of how absolutely brutal Sanguinius is on the charge, combined with his not-vector strike and HoW hits (and one-use not-melta). -- Triacom (talk) 03:38, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Whoops, actually was slightly wrong on the math because I forgot about his extra attack on the first turn of any combat. Sanguinius should knock Horus down to just one wound after only 3 rounds of combat, Horus can manage to survive round 4, but then he can and will be killed in round 5. Horus can try and draw out the combats a little if he uses Worldbreaker to mitigate Sanguinius' chance of leaving, but it's still a losing battle if he's not knocking Sanguinius' stats down since Sanguinius is still likely to leave combat at least once, and if he leaves combat and gets the charge again at full stats then Horus is just plain dead. -- Triacom (talk) 16:21, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Sounds pretty sweet, Russ is the real MVP in Primarch v Primarch fights, how do you think he will go against the emperors executioner?

Russ doesn't stand a chance in the world, so long as you make sure to take Angel's Wrath there isn't a single Primarch who does. -- Triacom (talk) 13:31, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

I was going to attempt to play devil's advocate and advise caution against framing Primarchs under a single rite of war when it comes time to perform the PvP breakdowns on their pages, since under different circumstances the maths of any Primarch can change once you start layering on additional sets of rules. I tried looking for other examples where a Primarch might get better under specific rites of war, but unfortunately the only example I found was Lorgar when using Dark Brethren, giving ICs (which includes Lorgar) Preferred Enemy (Loyalists). This will only work for half of the PvP combats and might only alter his result against Rogal Dorn considering how close that fight goes, and maybe mess with Guilliman's result marginally, I haven't done the math since factoring rerolls of 1 is a chore. I also don't have Retribution on me right now but arguably the Lion might also change with the Ravenwing Protocol and rerolling wounds against T5 enemies, since the rite specifically references the "Sire of" rule, but his rules aren't even out yet so it's premature to even speculate. In any case, Sanguinius and Lorgar seem to be the only exceptions at the moment. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 14:57, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

Just curiosity but will the mathhammer use his Sword as well? I know on the charge Telesto is better but vs Primarchs (especially tough ones,) it seems +1 strength and shred might top the Telesto's +3 only when charging, but only ap2 after. I mean Sang can't claim the 2 ccw bonus since his spear is two-handed. Love to see the sword in use personally but if it's too much work or just sucks don't bother.

• Nvm, Telesto's wrath of Angels ability is too good to bother with his sword.

When all the Primarchs have had their stats released I'll take some time to go over all of the various matchups to make sure they're consistent, which will include alternate weapons. -- Triacom (talk) 04:18, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

For the record, as I mentioned above Angel's Wrath (the rite of war) makes it pointless to use the sword in Primarch duels because you have a much greater benefit in charging every other turn. -- Triacom (talk) 04:23, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Hello, about the Spear of Telesto, in terms of averages Wrath of Angels works out to be +1 to wound so it matches the Blade's +1S, but Shred provides much more bonus than Master-crafted. On the charge the Spear is fantastic, but the Blade catches up over the remaining rounds of combat. Unless, as you say, Sanguinius gains H&R through Angel's Wrath.

I did the math for the Spear too but didn't want to clutter the section, should I post it? New to mathhammer so will be nice if someone else checks