Talk:Scrollhammer: House Dagoth

Things that need to be done before the codex is complete:

1. Finishing off unit stats and abilities. Done
2. Filling out out the spell and item list, and aplying them to the units. Done
3. Point evaluation, balancing, and miscellaneous edits.
4. Backround writing, unit desciptions, flavor text, images, format fixes, and generally making it look presentable.

Damn this getting close to being finished. The next step is for Lolpwnt to give it a round of editing, after which the codex will be officially playable. Then there's step 4, which should be the shortest and easiest step, and then it'll finally be done. --Dagoth Guy 02:49, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Questions

Ask any questions you have about the codex here. --Dagoth Guy 8:52, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Ideas and Commentary

Please share any comments you have about the codex here. Also, if anyone has any ideas based on the lore or that they simply think fits the theme, please share them here. Any and all input, suggestions, or criticism is appreciated. --Dagoth Guy 23:51, 20 September 2012 (BST)

Blighted

With the current wording of the Blighted rule, won't models in a unit affect one another in frenzied bouts of Chantrax? And won't this require you to note which models in the uniet have or have not been affected? I suggest rewording it with a few differences: the Blighted rule extends to all units in base to base contact (not models), and units with the Blighted rule (or in the House Dagoth list) are not affected by the Blighted rule. Biggus Berrus 13:41, 18 September 2012 (BST)

Ah, yes. The issue of the excessive bookkeeping has been brought up before. The thing is though, the bookkeeping for Blight is no different that the bookkeeping for the other diseases in the game, it just happens on a larger scale. So, yes, you probably will want to use some method of marking which units are infected and with what (perahaps placing small globs of painted greenstuff on a model's base, or attaching a piece of sticky note with abreviations on it, I don't know). Keep in mind that everything down right now is not even a rough draft; it all still needs to be play tested (which won't be happening unil the army list is finished). If model-based disease proves to be unfeasable in practice, then we'll switch it to something unit-based. As for models in a unit affecting one another in "frenzied bouts of Chantrax", Blight only spreads to allies on a 6+, so its spread will be fairly slow, but otherwise "frenzied bouts of Chantrax" is exactly what we're aiming for. If Blight proves to be TOO virulent in play testing however, then we'll find a way to tone it down some how. Thanks for the input! Feel free to ask any more quetions or make sugestions. --Dagoth Guy 15:08, 18 September 2012 (BST)

Army List

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Five_Songs_of_King_Wulfharth The Nordic acount of the War of the First Council mentions some of the forces employed by the historical House Dagoth before its fall. A few units could be derived from it:

• "chap'thil"(?): The meaning of this word is unclear. It is either an untranslated word from Nordic or Dunmeris, and if the latter then it possibly might also be misspelled. The syntax of the passage seems to imply that it is a type of soldier.
• Nix-Hounds: Already in the codex, but more could probably be done
• Wizards: Not really sure how this could be expanded upon.
• Archers: Maybe something based off shinto ceremonial archery? Anything suitably exotic should do.
• Stolen Men of Brass: Dwemer Animunculi. Already accounted for in the codex with Dagoth Ur's Thief of Brass rule.

• Corprus Sculpted Nix Hound/ Greater Ash Hound/ Greater Plaguehound/ Whatever-A-Freakishly-Corprus-Mutated-Lion-Sized-Nix-Hound-Would-Be-Called; Could be used as a bodyguard for certain Hero units.

• Sixth House Minister: Basically what Dagoth Gares was. Could be used as another hero unit.

• Sixth House Hamaya Archers: elite unit. ritual-steeped, blight-carrian, outlander-slayan archers.

Not that guy ^, but you could probably also add in a few more Corprus-related units. In the concept art there's a few pictures of ones that are wildly different then anything in the game- a walking figure that's essentially a ball of arms, termite-mound-landmine corprus thing, and men reduced to cancerous puddles. Some kind of support unit simply called CORPRUS BEASTS might be amusing, where you can customize the poor things to no end. Normal stat-line with upgrade options for +stats. And then of course you can go wild with corprus things in general. Tyranid Spore-Mine analogue? Yes please. --FatherDuke 05:51, 7 October 2012 (BST)

Ah, yes, the Corprus Beasts from the last page of the concept art book. Honestly I had been thinking about doing something along those lines quite for a while now, but I always dismissed it on account of how complicated it would be to make. However, they are one of the few things I have left to build on, and the way you describe them is just too delusciously pestilent. They are definately going to go in. The problem is that I simply have no idea how to put them on to paper. I guess I'll just look at how the chaos codexes handle chaos spawn (Chaos Spawn are freaky customisable mutants right? Right? I honestly don't really know.)--Dagoth Guy 18:26, 13 October 2012 (BST)

3E Tyranids had some pretty interesting customization options, and weapons-based-on-attribute shenanigans. I've taken the general idea from that book, slapped an example unit together. Even if you don't use it (And maybe you shouldn't- I have no idea how balanced it might be) it might help with brainstorming. I'll go ahead and take a look at some older Chaos dexes too. Derp

--FatherDuke 06:52, 15 October 2012 (BST)

Oh, oh. Also. During my usual check-contributions spree I found a page by Curved Sword, detailing some thoughts he had on a Sixth House codex. Much of what has been done so far is similar, but he also has ideas for a unit called 'Devoted of Akulakhan'. Might be worth adding in. Also, they coined the idea of having an EVIL CORPRUS BEARING NEREVARINE special char option for Sixth House. Which is admittedly awesome. Just more food for thought.

User:Curved_Sword/dagoth

--FatherDuke 06:02, 25 October 2012 (BST)

I'm new at posting at wiki articles, so if I've posted something wrong please correct me. It seems that Bethesda orginally intended to include many more Sixth House creatures in Morrowind, but somehow they cancelled them. If you look at the dialogues/Greetings in the CS, you can see the names and dialogue of them:

• Ash Guard (A variation of the Ash Slave)
• Ash Skirmisher (Variation of Ash Slave)
• Ash Wight (Variation of Ash Zombie)
• Ash Sorcerer (Variation of Ash Zombie)
• Ash Deathguard (Varation of Ash Ghoul)
• Ash Poet (Variation of Ash Ghoul)

I don't know if any of you were already aware of this, but I thought it would help coming up with some new ideas for units, especially since they were supposed to be included in Morrowind. Furthermore each of the Ash Vampire's abilities are hinted: Dagoth Araynys(Thief-Mage), Dagoth Gilvoth(Fighter-Mage), Dagoth Tureynul(Mage, Dwemer, He was probably supposed to control dwemer animunculy or something as he studies dwemer schematics in Kagrenac's library), Dagoth Endus(Summoning Mage), Dagoth Vemyn(Fighter), Dagoth Odros(Thief), Dagoth Uthol(Fighter-Thief). It stikes me as an interesting idea if each of the seven Ash Vampires' abilities were focused to represent their nature, especially because Lore-wise even an individual member of ALMSIVI isn't a match for a single Ash Vampire anymore.

Excellent points- I was not aware of those in the construction set. Probably grounds for buffing the Ash Vampires a bit, giving them more customization options. That and more infantry types for Ash Slaves.

--FatherDuke 01:08, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Now that's interesting. I've never really give the Construction Set more than a cursory glance before, so I hade no idea that any of these existed (except of Ash Poets, which were mentioned in the conversation with Dagoth Gares). This is great. I now have a legitimate source to base some more units off of, or at least for some upgrade options for the existing ones. Also, buffing and giving more customization options for the Ash Vampires Sounds good, so I'll start on that too. Thanks for posting this! --Dagoth Guy 03:28, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

You're welcome ;) I thought it would be helpful to include every piece of House Dagoth-lore in this army. There are little pieces scattered around the CS, like a piece of dialogue about the Sixth House creatures ritually eating their own and each others' flesh, which then grows back in a stronger, magical form. This is how their transformative process works. It is also interesting that music is a very important aspect in the Sixth House, looking at the mad poetry, Sixth House bells, giant face-flutes, and the Doom Drum(Heart of Lorkhan). Dagoth Ur makes His dream come true with the Heart of Lorkhan and tonal architecture. As divinity is measured in tones, by using the tones of the heart Dagoth Ur slowly draws everything in His Divine Dreamworld which his followers experience, all will become of His Flesh. I suppose his minions are also using a lesser form of is this magic, as the Ash Ghoul sprouts a small flute, and an Ascended Sleeper an enormous one which it plays often during gameplay. It's very likely that the Sixth House creatures' power is centered around the use of this tonal and musical power. If it is impractical to add all this to the army I suppose it could always be interesting fluff ;) I'm a kind of a Sixth House Freak so I feel obliged to add some info.

Hey Dagoth Guy, don't have much more I can do with Elswyr, so I took a look through what you've done and have some ramblings/observations.

Ash Vampires

Was thinking of a simple way you could execute the different forms of Ash Vampire, or classes. While having the usual +pts upgrade for each class might be fine, here's a thought- instead of that, right near the start of the special rules there's something called "Vestigial Skills", or some such, and allows you to pick two of the following (or two of the same)-

• Warrior: +1WS and +1S
• Skirmisher: +1I and +1A
• Thief: +1I and Stealth(6+)
• Mage: +2 Magicka
• Artificer: +1 Magicka, maybe allow special illusion-type spells that affect automatons?

In this fashion a player could simply note which two apply when creating the ash vampire. Simple and effective, post cost would take this into account already. Like, you want to represent a mage-thief, so you simply grab Mage and Thief for this particular Ash Vampire. It's a thought.

Ash Slaves

Think that having many different units of Ash (Blahs) might be a bit inefficient use for space. Instead could give them much more upgrade options- like upgrade to deathguard for X pts each, giving them dwemer armor. Upgrade to poets for +x points, and do something. If there's enough equipment options they could represent any number of ash guard, ash skirmisher, ash deathguard, etc.

Ascended sleepers

Think there still needs to be lines for purchasing spells OR bump up their cost, to take into account spells (?) that they start with. Depends on how you wish for that to work.

Corprus beasts

Feels warm and fuzzy. Does need work though.

Dagoth ur

Still think that he's about fine with special rules as is, and perhaps might just need some bumped up base states to make him worth it (Maybe just make him a monstrous creature? Tons of little rules that would benefit him that way). Other then that I kind of like what curved sword was working with here-

• Saviour of the Dreaming Dead: Dagoth Ur seeks to spread the wisdom he has gathered, and in doing so sends out his Padhomic blessings in the form of Corprus disease. Dagoth Ur is a carrier of Corprus disease, and while he is on the table, all models infected with Corprus gain some cool ability

"Some cool ability" could be that enemy models automatically acquire corprus on a roll of 1, when rolling for any blight disease, at all. Something that makes corprus that much easier to get, more prevalent.

All that out of the way, it's great to see lurkers becoming excited for this army list. It's been shaping up nicely too.

--FatherDuke 01:26, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the input!

• Ash Vampires: Vestigial Skills sounds like a great idea. That would take care of both the classes and buffing at the same time. I'll add it to the main page now.
• The thousand differend Ash _____'s: Yeah, I was thinking that some or most of them could be folded in to existing units as upgrade options. For now I'm just thinking of what niche each one will fill.
• Ascended sleepers: Yeah, I'm not even going to pretend that I know how to balance point costs or properly work with the magic system. They are going to need to be fixed either after the spell list changes or during editing.
• Corprus Beasts: The stats and point costs will probably need balancing, but over all I really like the direction they're going.
• Dagoth Ur: While making him a montrous creature would help, I don't really think he's big enough to count as one; He's only slightly smaller than a daedroth (In fact, his in-game model really is just a modified daedroth(Or maybe its the other way around? I don't know which came first)). I think upping his base stats and giving him Some cool ability which effects all ash creatures would be the best way to handle it.

--Dagoth Guy 02:21, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

With their new points cost you could prolly bump up the Toughness of ash vampires by like 1. These are contesters to the might of Almsivi, and T4 doesn't really seem that way when Nords and cats are taking hits as equally. Maybe a +T +WS option or something. Other then that, I'll wait a little bit before bugging you more. --FatherDuke 01:42, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I nerfed them slightly after I realized that you could upgrade them into some truly ridiculous builds; for example, an Ash Vampire that takes Warrior twice, the Amulet of Heartheal, and a Sixth House Bell Hammer would have a Strength of 10 and have flying movement type, at which point they would basically be a fucking meteor, so thats probably going to need some balancing. But yeah, +1 T probably wouldn't hurt. I'll go fix that now. (Perhaps Vestigial skills should be altered so that the second rank in a skill provide a slightly differnt bonus than the first rank? Like maybe rank 1 in warrior adds +1 S and WS, but rank 2 adds +1 S and T? Something like that is already going to needed to be done for Artificer, because as it is right now the second rank only really gives you +1 Mg.) Well, anyways, thanks for the input. It is appreciated as always. --Dagoth Guy 09:19, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Holy shit! You guys really did some awesome work here, great job. It really feels like a complete army now with all those extra Ash-creatures. I shouldn't feel shy with the Ash Vampires, being a fucking meteor probably suits the lore, they're gods after all. I would just battletest one against Vivec or something and buff/nerf it so it will be equal.

Well, yes, if and wanted to go strictly by the lore I would do just that, but keep in mind, if we were going strictly by the lore then Dagoth Ur would be a 1000+ point monstrosity that regenerates to full health not just every turn, but every phase; In other words, far, far to OP to be playable. My main concerns in this project are to make an army that a) Exhaustively uses all available information about the sixth house as a basis, and b) Is playable. In the interest of playability, we're going to need to stray a bit from the lore. Dagoth Ur on the tabletop should be "about" equal in terms of power to a member of the Tribunal, and the Ash Vampires should be scaled to match. And while yes, I do want the Ash vampires to be powerful and to stick to the lore as much as possible, their playability on the tabletop is my main concern. Maybe in the second edition (if scrollhammer ever lasts that long) the codex will be closer to the lore, but for now? Just making something that works is what's most important. --Dagoth Guy 06:05, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

I have to agree with the anon that fucking meteor Ash Vampires are too cool to remove, and should just be carefully balanced points-wise. If that's what you were already thinking then right on. --FatherDuke 20:45, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Balanced fucking meteor-Ash Vampires sound interesting indeed. And with the post which adressed the fact that lore has to bend for playability, yes, that's true 'till a certain degree. It is important to know that gameplay-stats and lore are two different things, for instance Dagoth Ur is completely unkillable when close to the Heart in-game. But according to Vivec's dialogue Daggy can be killed, but the Heart always revives him. Don't misunderstand me, I think Scrollhammer looks absolutely great. It would only be a bit of an anti-climax when Dagoth Ur could be pounded to dust by a strong dremora. God's are supposed to be a bit scary to face on the battlefield. Look at Mehrunes Dagon in the other army list, his stats almost make him a one-God army.

Honestly? I have no clue exactly how powerful Dagoth Ur should be. All I know is that he should be in the same league as the tribunal, for playability reasons. Exactly where that is, and how many points that costs, is best left to someone who knows what they're doing. Also, it should be feasable( but definately not easy) for Almalexia( and therefore, any member of the tirbunal) to defeat Mehrunes Dagon one on one(Pic related: http://images.uesp.net/e/ef/MW-Places-PlazaBrindisiDoromNight.jpg). Whether that means that Dagon needs to be nerfed or the tribunal buffed is up to lolpwnt. Speaking of lolpwnt, either he or FatherDuke is going to need to take over the finalization of this codex; I've reached my limit with what I can do. Someone who actually knows what they're doing is going to need to step up before the codex can move forwards. --Dagoth Guy 06:33, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

IIRC Almalexia had Sotha Sil's assistance during that battle, though she took the brunt of Mehrune's attacks, and was out cold for a few weeks. On this same topic, there are no pictures of a drenched Almalexia with a blanket around her shoulders hunkered down in front of a hearth. Why is this? Anyways. I'd probably enjoy taking a crack at some of this codex; I've got some ideas for how a global blight rule might work, and certainly dig the ash motif. I'll probably end up waiting for the completion of Elswyr though, and to hear what Lolpwnt wants to work on next, before (maybe) derping away at House Dagoth. There's a good chance he himself might jump at the opportunity to work on it. In the mean time you could perhaps write up descriptions for the units. --FatherDuke 23:16, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

On second thought, I've been staring blankly at the Elswyr list feeling unproductive. Here's more ramblings.

Perhaps it might be best if once a unit has aquired a blight disease, they may only gain more instances of that particular blight? So for example, some Nord Veterans happen to aquire Black-Heart blight, now whenever they would roll for getting Blight it is instead automatically Black-Heart blight. Corprus ignores this, naturally.

Blighted Aura: Each turn, all models in base contact with this unit must roll a D6. On a result equal to or higher then the number in parenthesis the unit is granted a random blight disease. Another dice roll will then determine what the disease is- rolled on the Blight List or Greater Blight list, as noted.

Blighted Attack: Whenever an enemy model is struck by this unit in melee (saved or not), roll a D6. A result equal to or higher then the number in parenthesis grants the model a random blight disease. Another dice roll will then determine what the disease is- rolled on the Blight List or Greater Blight list, as noted.

Blight List

• 1-2: Ash Woe Blight
• 3-4; Black-Heart Blight
• 5-6; Corprus

Greater Blight List

• 1: Ash Woe Blight
• 2; Ash-chancre
• 3; Black-Heart Blight
• 4; Chanthrax Blight
• 5-6; Corprus

Corprus Aura: Each turn, all models in base contact with this unit must roll a D6. On a result equal to or higher then the number in parenthesis, the unit is granted Corprus Disease.

Corprus Attack: Whenever an enemy model is struck by this unit in melee (saved or not), roll a D6. A result equal to or higher then the number in parenthesis grants the model Corprus.

In the unit entries there would be an additional line directly beneath special rules, called Disease:, and it would have something like any of these:

• Corprus Aura (6+), Corprus Attack (5+)
• Blighted Aura (6+), Blight Attack (5+), Ash Zombies roll on the Blight list
• Blighted Aura (5+), Blight Attack (4+), Ascended Sleepers roll on the Greater Blight list

And then we have the special rules that just have names. Here's some ideas.

Dromotropic Harmony: Friendly units within 12" of the Sixth House Minister roll on the Greater Blight List rather then the normal Blight List. Units that have Corprus Attack within 12" of the Ash Minister have -1 to the required roll for their Corprus Attack to grant corprus.

Spitefulness: When the Sixth House Minister is slain the model that killed the Sixth House Minister must automatically roll on the Greater Blight list to see what disease they are granted.

Tonal Synchronotropism: Any time an enemy model would be granted a Blight Disease they are instead granted Corprus.

--FatherDuke 04:12, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

I like it. Not too sure about Tonal Synchronotropism, however. Granting everyone corprus could be a good idea, but you're essentially cutting out all the other blight dieases, which takes variety away from the army. Giving a -1 to the required roll to grant any disease for every one might be a better way to handle it. I'll put a stand-in rule for now; there's nothing stopping us from changing it later. Still, I like the idea of universal disease lists and making disease stack cuts down on most of the bookkeeping, which was a major problem. --Dagoth Guy 16:22, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Did some work on the spell and item lists, by which I mean that I blatantly stole some stuff from the other codexes and slapped down some names without any stats behind them. If anyone has any ideas for anything to add, give stats to, adjust the stats of, rename, or otherwise improve anything on the item or spell lists, please share. Also, If someone would like to help by updating the codex to the 1st edition rules then that would be great, as that's not really something that I want to attempt with my limited understanding of the game's mechanics. --Dagoth Guy 15:04, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Okay. First thing I'm going to do is beef up the Ash Vampires and Dagoth ur, then vomit some point values/stats onto the HQ units and Dagoth spells. --FatherDuke 00:52, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Fixed all the spells that weren't 1st Edition, statted up most of the ones that had no effects. Other minor edits. --FatherDuke 02:20, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Slapped more points values on (eyeballing it) and threw up another picture. It's probably 1st edition'd now, and needs some fluff written. --FatherDuke 03:07, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Collaborating with people to make the Dwemer Animunculi. Here's some of the currently cut ones, that should be instead (maybe?) be included within the Dwemer codex- (removed and placed into Dwemer Animunculi list) --FatherDuke 05:01, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Went through and took a closer look at point costs, hit a few of the units. Most of the multiple-wound units are still priced fine. --FatherDuke 22:08, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Finished off the last few items. Now all that's left is a final round of editing from lolpwnt and then its on to step 4. --Dagoth Guy 19:45, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Hello, I personally love your army list, and I could write some fluff for every unit. I'm pretty knowledgeable about the Sixth House-Lore. However I don't know how much text has to be written for each unit.

Actually, if you could, writing stuff up for the units would be pretty damn fantastic. That's pretty much the one area that I and Fatherduke have been avoiding for now; Both of us admit to being somewhat terrible at writing, so unfortunately we don't really have anything written up for anything at this point. Any fluff writing that you could do for the army list would be much appreciated. Or hell, even some bullet pointed lists would be great. That’s the area which we're lacking in most at the moment, so any contribution you would make would be invaluable. --Dagoth Guy 15:11, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Ooh ooh, something I can help with. A paragraph should do the trick for most units- that's how we've been handling it in the other codices. Certain classic or exotic units in the army might be befitting of a few small paragraphs, such as the Ascended Sleepers and Ash Vampires. And then there's the special characters, whom we frequently give quite a few paragraphs and paraphrase their entire history. Naturally certain SC's have less written lore, so there's the option of writing far less for them or taking artistic liberties. Hopefully this helps answer your question. --FatherDuke 02:39, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

All right, I'll start when I have some time. My primary language isn't English, so I could make a few spelling errors. Feel free to edit if the story doesn't fit or something. I'll start off with some simple unit descriptions. The whole storyline and history will come at a later time when I'm more in-depth with the lore.

Awesome, thanks. By writing these you'll be helping us all greatly- it does make a difference. Howler if you come across a unit you are unfamiliar with and one of us will be able to throw some details at you. Thanks again. --FatherDuke 21:39, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

I've completed the Sleeper-and Dreamer fluff, and the fluff about the Ash Slaves and their variations. I tried to stay as close to the lore as possible. Most fluff comes from Dagoth-dialogue, in-game rumours, and removed Construction Set contend (Flesh-eating, Divine Dreamworld/Song, Difference between sleepers and dreamers)

Excellent work so far. I'd say you're more then qualified. --FatherDuke 23:42, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, I appreciate it, I'll add another few descriptions tomorrow, my knowlegde about everything seems to've gotten a bit dusty. --Dagoth Anon

Keep up the good work, it's looking great so far! Don't worry about editing and finalization, I can do that for you. Also, thanks for taking up the writing. It really does help. --Dagoth Guy 15:36, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Finished off the rest of the core units: Ash Wights, Sorcerers and blighted Nix-Hounds. It's going pretty smoothly so far ;) --Dagoth Anon

Excellent work, still. I'm looking forward to reading the entry for Ascended Sleepers. On that note, here's some alternative art for them. Probably already seen these but I think one of them may look better then the current one.

• Dsiwek's
• Chilkat's

--FatherDuke 21:58, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

That colored art looks very nice, unfortunately I don't know how to put pictures in the article itself lol. Anyway, I've finished off the Elite-section of the army, including the Ascended Sleepers. I've also included quotes from the game and Construction Set. If you have any criticism, please share it with me. --Dagoth Anon

I'll go ahead and swap the image- current one feels a little cartoony. Suppose it can always be reverted pretty easily.

The unit descriptions so far are exceptional, as normal. There's only been a few cases where the sentences don't flow quite as well as they could, or a word or two is repeated to start a sentence. This may be me nitpicking (sorry if that's the case). I'll change what is bugging me. Feel free to ask for clarification for any of the edits. --FatherDuke 00:05, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Ah I'm sorry. English is not my native language, so I often have some trouble creating a smooth story. As long as the info is fun to read, I'm happy.

Don't worry about it. You're doing great work so far, so apologizing is completely unnecessary. My primary language is English, and even I'm corrected all the time while writing. --FatherDuke 00:17, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Haha that can happen to anyone! Anyway, I've just added a few Construction Set quotes to the remaining units, they spice up the scare-factor a bit.

Definitely- those are a nice touch so far. Fluffs it up quite a bit more, and can almost picture how the page (in an actual book) might appear. --FatherDuke 00:25, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

The Sixth House somehow has a very scary and alien aura around it. An actual book would look very nice. However I still think the units' stats are a little weak compared to units from other armies. Especially the Ash Ghoul and Ascended sleeper's stats are inferior those of common Nords or a weak Daedra. I always saw the Sixth house cultists as some kind of relatively small and dangerous (expensive)elite army. I don't mean to be critical or something, but it just strikes me as a little unbalanced.

I agree, on some accounts. Some of the units could do with point and attribute increases. I was just looking at the Ascended Sleepers 6Mg and 3BS, that's one of the more obvious cases- those aren't really good mage stats, even if they are somewhat beefy. With these guys though, I also noticed they have quite a bit more W and WS then other wizards, and could do with a point increase regardless of what is done to them. It's kind of finicky like that. (Neither of us are that good at eyeballing points) For the cultists, Dagoth Guy and myself were probably thinking of them as barely initiated dudes, just having joined the sixth house. Next time Dagoth Guy is on we'll see what should be done for statlines. --FatherDuke 00:44, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

It's nice seeing the army almost done :) What I meant were the S and T stats, they simply seemed a little low as even the powerful Vivec told the Nerevarine that Ash cultists' flesh is very difficult to harm. An Ascended sleeper has a Toughness of 4, while a simple lame corprus got 5. Maybe some small changes to corprus stalkers, they are extremely clumsy and slow, so I thought 1WS and 1 Initiative instead of 4 was appropriate, coupled with 4Strength and 4Toughness to represent the corprus. Feel free to ignore my advise if you don't like it. I don't mean to undermine your work, but I think these stats are closer to their actual abilities.

At first I was somewhat skeptical of WS1, but then realized they still hit/are hit on 5+/3+. That isn't too horrible. I think that changed statline for stalkers would be more fluffy and still work mechanically. Although the Corprus units do have Feel No Pain, so they essentially ignore 33% of the attacks that would have harmed them. Although looking at Nords, other codexes, some units are rather cheaply priced. Should prolly be fine. (Undermine my work? Like 85% of this codex has been done by Dagoth Guy.) --FatherDuke 01:01, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

Looking at the current stats of the Corprus Stalker, yes, they are much more realistic! The lame corprus should off course be around the same, but better, I'll try to finish the rest of the units descriptions tomorrow.

By the way, I think the 'Ash Minister' options should be expanded a bit. It is basically an Ash cultist 'ministering' the Sixth House servants, as dagoth Gares put it. They are the creatures whose name start with 'Dagoth.. "name"', so it could be Ash Ghouls, Poets or Ascended sleepers. It would offer some more nice options when choosing a general.

I'll finish the rest of the units soon!

Units descriptions are great so far. The quotes exspecially are a nice touch. The stat changes are looking good too. To answer your question about how the army list should look, the idea was that the Sixth House would have several flavors of cannon-fodder(Ash Zombies, Ash Slaves, Sleeper Cultists, etc.) backed up by a cadre of highly powerful elites. There is certainly still room for change, be the rules as they are roughly reflect what we were aiming for. Also, as for expanding the sixth house minister as you said, that might be a good idea. I'll see what can be done there. Hopefully we'll be able to finalize this whole thing soon. --Dagoth Guy 00:10, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you! I'm having a very busy scedule the following weeks so the pace will be a bit slow. Well lore-wise, I think it would be more logical to use the demented corprus monsters as mindless cannon fodder. The Ash Cultists are told in-game many times to be very powerful, and were highly valued as Dagoth Ur's children, made by his own flesh. Using them as cannon fodder contradicts that quite a bit. My impression from the Lore was that Blighted/Corprus Beasts could be widely used as expendable cannon fodder. The Ash Cultists are used as a powerful elite while Sleepers and Dreamers disrupt terrorise enemy lines and sow confusion amongst them. The 'closest to His flesh', as Dagoth Gares put it, are the absolute top and are to be represented as either characters or real heavy-hitters. This armylist represents that well(Except the weak Slaves/Zombies) and as you can see, I'm quite the Lore guy. Again, scrollhammer doesn't necessarily háve to be lore-correct, but it would certainly add to the TES element. But it's your armylist, and completely your decision :)

Perhaps we could move all Corprus and Blight critters over into support, then giving minor buffs to some of the weaker ash units that remain in core. Would end up with all armies having at least /some/ ash creatures with optional amounts of corprus/blight hordes. That's how I'd change it, at least. --FatherDuke 23:57, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

That sounds like a solid plan. So then, if we're going to do it that way, how does this sound in terms of buffing the lesser ash creatures?

• Ash Slave: +1BS, +1T, +2pts/model
• Ash Guard: +1T, +1I, +2pts/model
• Ash Skirmisher: +1T, +1I, +2pts/model
• Ash Zombie: +1I, +1A, +3pts/model

More? Less? Different? ---Dagoth Guy

Ash Retainers look good though you may only need to make them +1pt/model. Zombies could prolly be priced like 11 points each. Jaguar Men are quite a bit more scary (even if they don't have fearless) at 13 pts a pop- the +3pts would make the zombies cost the same as them. --FatherDuke 08:17, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Alright; Changes have been implimented. Now to try and figure out what the Sixth House Minister options will look like, though I'm a litle weary of throwing them all into one unit. Oh, you already did it. Nevermind then. Thanks for taking care of that. --Dagoth Guy 09:36, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

I've completed the Ash Vampire section. Tell me if you like it.

Certainly do. I might end up changing a word here and there (don't hurt me), but it summarizes the things quite well, with just the right amount of exposition. --FatherDuke 23:48, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

I have quite a good idea. Remember those giant whispering Ash Statues often found in Sixth House bases? I think that would be a good addition to the army. I'm having trouble coming up with a good lore-description for those corprus creatures btw.

Here's some suggestions of what might be wrote for some of the unit entries. I don't seem to recall any especially large Ash Statues (Redoran quest? Those shrines?) but I'll see what can be dug up. It's possible that some kind of sentry or super-ash-statue could be added to cultist squads or something.

Sixth House Minister: Normally ash creatures given rank befitting their form- occasionally one is marked as a minister, to grow cults and fortify an area as seen fit, rule with a degree of independence over sixth house, etc. etc. Methods of what they might do, strengths, what their plans are. Blah blah blarg.

Corprus Beasts: Lame and stalker corprus must frequent kind, with force of will/direct intent a ash vampire (or whatever) can dictate the direction that corprus grows within a creature. Blah blah, evolve into different kind of forms and sizes to match a particular challenge. Blah blah, hoppers that attacked blah, strange lashing corprus beasts found in the cave of blah, etc. etc. Prolly copy and paste a bunch from the other corprus entries also.

Sixth House Bianzhong: Explain the tonal portions of the sixth house, the poisonous song that makes ears ring and dreams become fettered with disturbing images. Oft sound beneficial to cultists and ash creatures, viewed with reverence, etc. Wartime might haul along a bianzhong by slaves or ash whatevers, to bolster morale (or something) and disturb the enemy. Line or two on the effects it might have on squads of man and mer.

--FatherDuke 01:33, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, this will help greatly. It will take a while however, I don't have much time. Anyway, for a picture of the Ash Statue I meant: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/File:MW-creature-Dagoth_Gares.jpg It's right behind Dagoth Gares, every sixth house base has one.

No problem. And those, right. Maybe Dagoth Guy will have an idea for what they might do? --FatherDuke 08:18, 22 February 2013 (UTC)

I loved those gaint ash statue things, and I especially loved the whispers you hear when you get near them. I always wondered exactly what they were saying. Probably either esoteric sixth house lore or just random joke stuff from the devs . Either way, they were deliciously unsettling and great for setting the mood of House Dagoth in the game. Unfortunately, I don't really think they'd be appropriate to include in an army list. While something like a giant bell rack can conceivably be disassembled and moved somewhere, those things would have would have to wheigh at least a ton or two, if not more. Besides, I'm not sure if they really serve a funtion outside of worship and giving people wierd dagoth-dreams. Stuff like that are usually more permanent types of structures anyways; You don't see the Imperial Legion dragging around altars to the Nine Divines around where ever they go, or the Great Houses of Morrowing bringing those Saint-Pylon things into battle. I tell you what; If any one ever makes a Scrollhammer RTS mod for Dawn of War or whatever, they can be buildable structures. They'd give some sort of penalty on the Ld of non-Sixth House units within range.

Anyways, about the stuff you're having trouble writing about:

• Sixth House Minister: They sort of act as spiritual leaders to the various cultists, and as comanders of Sixth House opperations outside of Red Mountain. I'd look for inspiation in the stuff Dagoth Gares says. His conversation with you is on his UESP page. Some things of note:
  • they are the "priests of the Sixth House shrines, and ministers to Sixth House servants"
  • They lead their congregation in "contemplation, so that they grow strong and wise in Lord Dagoth's ways"
  • They lead their congregation in "sharing the sacraments of flesh and blood, and dreaming the dreams of their Lord."
• Corprus Beasts: The point at which the corprus infection has mutated someone to such a degree that they can no longer easily be reconized as ever having been man or mer. There is no limit to ways in which the disease might twist one's flesh, and the bodies of those unfortunate enough to live long enough with it will enventually be reshaped into strange and horrible forms, changing them into unnatural monsters whoes minds are devoid of any sanity or reason.
• Sixth House Bianzhong: I dunno, it's pretty much just a giant, fancy bell rack. I just liked the idea of non-offenive artillery. You could look for inspiation in the "The Poison Song", though in universe that's just a fictional romance novel, so I'd use it to find ideas, not facts.

Also, removing the Developmet section because it doesn't really serve much of a purpose any more and was kinda taking up a lot of space. --Dagoth Guy 08:29, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Aight thanks! That will help quite a lot.

Always happy to lend a hand. Good luck with the writing. On another note, I added two more items form Morrowind to the list that had somehow been left out. It anyone wants to stat those, that would be great. --Dagoth Guy (talk) 15:29, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

I still think that a fallen Nerevarine special character would be awesome. Imagine running a corprus Nerevarine, Dagoth Ur, and Akulakhan in an apoc battle. --FatherDuke (talk) 22:27, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

That kind of awesome is, hopefully, what we're eventually aiming for. I'm all for a fallen Nerevarine. However, the possiblity of having two Nerevarines in a match, one endorced by the sixth house and one by the temple, doesn't sit well with me for some reason. How do the rules for Lone Hero Nerevarine work anyways? Is he considered a faction in and of himself? If so, giving LHN some cool special abilities if he allies with House Dagoth instead of the other Great Houses is certainly do-able.

Oh, and also, unfortunately I don't think we'll be able to do anything with Akulakhan. It would just be too powerful. Numidium's every step broke the Dragon; It single handedly conquered the entire Aldmeri Dominion, laying siege to it for thousands of years over the course of a single hour. Akulakhan would be even more powerful than that. It was to be a near identical divice, built using the same methods, as Numidium. But where as Walks-Brass Tower was powered by the Mantella charged with the soul of a Shezarrine, Akulakhan was to be powered by the Heart of Lorkhan itself. When Vivec said Dagoth Ur and his plans had to be stopped for the sake of all existance, he was not speaking in riddles. --Dagoth Guy (talk) 15:47, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

That's probably best. I was thinking something along the lines of a titan from 40k, with a battlefield-wide corprus effect. For Nerevarine, you could probably include a small section in general rules that gives the rundown of using him. I.e.-

The Nerevarine, Fallen (or something cooler sounding)

Blih blah blah, Dagoth Ur beckoned the nerevarine to set aside their differences and join his side once more, good ol' buddies. As horrifying as his plans were, the first goal was to expel the mongrel outsider dogs and bring Morrowind to greatness; something the Nerevarine might find appealing. May take the Nerevarine from the great houses of Morrowind as an HQ choice, should your opponent not be using him already. Should this be done the uses the following rules-

Great House Allegiance:

Sixth House: Nerevarine has +1T, +1S, Feels no Pain, and due to Azura's enmity, each enemy may force Nerevarine to re-roll one dice each game turn. A Nerevarine serving House Dagoth can never carry the Old Man's Lucky Coin, nor the Moon and Star. Instead the Nerevarine may purchase Heartwright Connection (or some other cool name) for +20 points, which grants him a 5+ ward save and Disease: Corprus Aura (6+), Corprus Attack (5+). --FatherDuke (talk) 22:35, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Alright, the draft of Nerevarine, Honorer of the Tribe Unmourned is up. Anyone have any ideas while I'm at it? --Dagoth Guy (talk) 15:52, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

I was thinking of updating the Ash Vampire's Honorable and Cordial special rule now that Challenges are part of the game. Something along the lines of

Honorable and Cordial:

If an Ash Vampire has Ancient Dagoth Brandy, instead of drinking it, they may offer it to an enemy Independent Character at the beginning of a round of a Challenge. If the enemy Independent Character refuses they strike at 1 I for the rest of this turn, and instead the Ash Vampire drinks it. If the Independent Character accepts they have -1S and -1T for the rest of this turn. Regardless of accepting or not the Ancient Dagoth Brandy is consumed.

Sportsman:

During a Challenge involving an Ash Vampire, if the enemy character is the one who issued the Challenge, the Ash Vampire must always Strike Last during the first round. The Ash Vampire, however, receives a +(1 or 2?) bonus to Toughness for this round. However, if the Ash Vampire is the one who issued the challenge, then the enemy character instead has the option of Striking Last during the first round of the Challenge. If the enemy character chooses not to do this, then the Ash Vampire receives +1 Strength for the rest of the Challenge.

Thoughts? --Dagoth Guy (talk) 16:11, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

The first is probably better than what I had in mind. It's kind of odd to think (with the current version) that there might be a swirling melee of death, shield upon shield, and then a gray arm sticks on through the line offering some dude some brandy. Yeeeeah, swap that one. What's the reason behind the second, beyond the whole 'you may strike the first blow' thing? ('Cause if it's only that, it might be easier to simply say that if the enemy issues a challenge their first blow automatically strikes your Ash Vampire.) --FatherDuke (talk) 12:41, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

The 'you may strike the first blow' thing was exactly what I was aiming for. Most of the Ash Vampires, as well as Dagoth Ur himself, will offer you the first blow if your disposition is high enough that they're not immediately hostile to you. But anyways yeah, I'll go ahead and swap those out. --Dagoth Guy (talk) 06:34, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

Judging from the new pictures, I see you guys are active again. -- Guy who helped writing last year, 27 November 2014

Sort of. I'm still around, and Duke is still working on the second edition (which is currently on hiatus while he's heading the Chapter Master project), but lolpwnt hasn't posted in a quite a long while. I still do the occasional bit of work and polishing up of first edition content because; 1) I'd still like to finish Scrollhammer 1e, if for no other reason than completion's sake, and 2) first edition stuff can still serve as inspiration and guidelines for content that Duke can work into 2e, and for any possible future editions after that. So yeah. In any case, I'm still all-ears for all commentary or suggestions on any of my army books if you have any. --Dagoth Guy (talk) 02:11, 17 December 2014 (UTC)