Talk:Space Sharks

Tyberos, "The Red Wake" was first captain. [1]. Do you think he got promoted? --Emerald Claw (talk) 11:38, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

The wording in this implies (if not out right states) he is chapter master "If Tyberos is included in an army then none of its primary detachments may include another Chapter Master, named or otherwise. A single Honour Guard squad may be included in an army that includes Tyberos", So I guess he did get promoted. [2] --Emerald Claw (talk) 06:18, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

• So here's a thought, did anyone consider that maybe they are a later founding chapter and the AdMech combined Night Lord gene-seed with Raven Guard gene-seed? It certainly wouldn't be the first time they fucked around with a new chapter's gene-seed and it would explain why they have so much in common with both of those and rage when in combat is also a trait (although an uncommon one) for chapters the AdMech messes with (as well as why it's possible to trace them back to the Raven Guard, even though their current organs should make it impossible for them to be a descendant). -- Triacom (talk) 08:50, 4 April 2016 (UTC)
  • That's plausible, but unlikely. It's emphasized that their gene-seed is usually pure, meaning no mutations or major side-effects whatsoever. The last time the AdMech tried to fuck around with some gene-seed resulted in the 21st Founding. And considering how soon they came around after the Horus Heresy, the most plausible explanation is that they're directly decended from a Legion. The question is who.

Oh I'm aware, though just because they mess around with gene-seed that doesn't mean it becomes impure, since impure gene-seed almost always has missing/inactive organs or random mutations, whereas there's a few 21'st founding chapters that don't really have negative side effects and also have functioning organs, not to mention in some cases in the 21'st founding they insisted on adding more than gene-seed in some cases. -- Triacom (talk) 16:27, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Clean up

Forge Worlds not so subtle hints.

There's a lot of opinion and conjecture on this page. Namely in Loyalist Traitors.

For example:

"If the Carcharadons were descended from a long-lost fleet of pre-Heresy Pale Nomads, why would they have Heresy-era gear?" They raided and resupplied upon return inner space. Even Ashen Claws got MKIV armor in book 6.

"Moreover, while Horus Heresy Book 3 implies that the Raven Guard adopted (or reverted to) Carcharadon-like tactics during the fight to survive Istvaan V, that would imply that Corax exiled the Pale Nomads AFTER Istvaan," Page 140 confirms he sent them off early on. Also XIX veterans suffer from Sable Blindess, and many did so on Istvaan V, book 3 spells this out in the RG chapter.

"The Space Shark's preferred tactics are bloody and brutal, far more so than expected from any pre-Heresy Space Marine Legion besides the Night Lords and the World Eaters." Again, no. Sable Blindess and Pale Nomads were notoriously cruel and violent.

Who ever wrote that section got a lot of things wrong despite claiming to have read HH3 and HH6.

There's far more opinion and conjecture in these arguments and the ones that were posted on the main page, so I'll break them down:

• "They raided and resupplied upon return inner space*." *Citation needed. Nowhere are the Carcharodons ever mentioned as having done this.
• "Page 140 confirms he sent them off early on." No it doesn't, page 140 says the Emperor (and NOT Corax) sent them off BEFORE Istvaan.
• "Also XIX veterans suffer from Sable Blindess, and many did so on Istvaan V, book 3 spells this out in the RG chapter." Yeah, many did become "Ash Blind" or receive the "Sable Brand" (it is not called Sable Blindness), however the legionary that's being pointed out certainly isn't mentioned to suffer from it, and the Sable Brand does NOT cause Carcharodon like rage on the battlefield, it only removes the marines sense of self-preservation.
• "Again, no. Sable Blindess and Pale Nomads were notoriously cruel and violent." Nothing caused by either the Sable Brand or the Raven Guard meets or comes anywhere close to what the Carcharodons do, saying the Raven Guard are notoriously cruel and violent in this context is a joke since they reserve that for their enemies, not everyone in their path not to mention the Sable Brand has nothing to do with making the marine cruel or violent.

Now let's break down that picture.

• The picture has several Carcharodons below a Raven Guard Legionary, and they look nothing like each other, having a different colour scheme, different armour, and different weapons. What was the point of the other pictures? If anything it only undermines the raven guard argument and in fact he might be even more unrelated than you think, since it's unknown as to whether he was assigned on that expedition in the first place.
• Speaking of the expedition, there were many expeditions sent out to the "Outer Darkness", this one being sent out with sealed orders, however at no point are the Carcharodons ever mentioned as following sealed orders from the Emperor and the Raven Guard were sent with a "Nomad Predation" fleet, as in that was the class of fleet they were with and not the tactic the fleet was following, AND they were only one group in the larger fleet in that case. Also notable is that such expeditions did not stay there, the only ones who really tried to stay there were ones who went renegade, either loyalists going traitor, or traitors staying loyal.

That's it for the picture, the entire argument for it comes from just a few words and thinking that all space marines look the same, so now I'm going to break down the strikethrough edits that were originally on the main page.

• The first paragraph just argues that the image shows they're successors, I've already covered that. Same with the next sentence, and the next tries claiming what you did with this "Sable Blindness".
• The next notable paragraph tries to claim that the Ash Blind fought like the Carcharodons, when it's not even close. In no way shape or form did Moritats even come close to anything resembling the Carcharodons for brutality, favour of close combat prowess, and bloodlust. Moritats wanted to cause as many casualties as possible, but they weren't literally blind in doing so, they'd just use whatever weapons they were given without any sort of self-preservation. If they had pistols they would shoot with them, whereas Carcharodons would prefer to use them to beat their enemies to death. The paragraph also claims that the XIX pre-Corax legion was brutal and cruel, however as I mentioned before they kept that relegated specifically to their enemies, they weren't the fans of scorched earth tactics that the Carcharodons are.
• The next notable moment mentions that the XIX legion used the same tactics, but they didn't. Simple as that, Carcharodons like sudden strikes whereas the Raven Guard have always loved patient planning and stealth, targeting their enemies specifically in doing so whereas the Carcharodons destroyed planets that didn't really have any of their enemies on them at all, something the XIX Legion never would have done. Even their strikes differ, the Raven Guard get into position then come crashing down on the enemy when the enemy's walked into the ambush, whereas the Carcharodons like appearing out of nowhere to take the enemy by surprise. Saying they're the same is like saying there's no the difference between a cat and a mousetrap since they both kill a mouse.
• The next sentence claims that the Xeric tribes operated in a "Nomad-Predation Pattern", when they didn't. That's the end of that.
• The next sentence mentions the Ashen Claws, specifically how their stole shit from the Night Lords, including gene-seed. If this was meant to be proof against the Night Lords, it has exactly the opposite effect as using their gene-seed means they are not Raven Guard, but loyalist Night Lords.
• The dumbest portion though is yet to come: "The Chapter's preference for close-combat is exactly like the Raven Guard's preference for quick-moving strikes at any range..." I seriously hope I don't have to explain why this contradictory statement is fucking stupid.
• The last bit claims that those with the Sable Brand refuse to work with Imperial forces, however that's a flat out lie. Once again, the Sable Brand takes away your sense of self-preservation, nothing else. The ones it affected work best on their own, which is why they left as lone wolves, it had nothing to do with them refusing to work with others.

Now lastly, if for some reason you ignore or think you can counter all of the above, there's one crucial fact you're missing. The Carcharodons have several working organs that the Raven Guard do not have, which by itself makes it literally impossible for them to be successors. -- Triacom (talk) 04:23, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

1The Ashen Claws, one of the predation fleets did in the chapter on them in HH6. They raided nostramo and fought against the ultramarines. 2Page 138: "In the aftermath of the Dropsite Massacre, the number ofRaven Guard Legionaries under the direct command ofCorax numbered no more than 4,000. These grim survivors were mostly those raised into the ranks ofthe Legiones Astartes from the warriors of Deliverance, those who had fought through the hell of Isstvan V and those who had come to rescue them. In addition to these Space Marines, there were several chapters of the Raven Guard attached to distant Crusade fleets and various small garrison units scattered throughout the Imperium, mainly Terran warriors of the old XIX Legion who would take months to return to bolster the Legion." They were gone before V. 2.5"a condition heralded by the darkening of the entire eye to black. Those warriors who survived their suicidal furies sometimes recovered, their brethren never mentioning the incident in a typically Raven Guard display of reticence, but more often were evermore plagued in combat by the urge to slay until death took them, paying no heed to tactical plans" So, exactly like Carcharodons. 3Pale Nomads disposition was cruel, they had no qualms about using allies as bait or racking up casualties to get the mission done. Battle of Hells Anvil HH3. 3.5The tribal tattoos are the same and the author of it is going out of his way to use terms consistent with Carcharodon lore. Terms such as "Nomadic Preadtion Fleet" and fleets being sent into the "Outer Darkness" to reave to foes of mankind have only been mentioned in Carcharodon lore. This is not a coincidence in fictional work from the same source, it's purposefully placed hints at their origin. 4The tribal tattoos are the same and the author of it is going out of his way to use terms consistent with Carcharodon lore. Terms such as "Nomadic Preadtion Fleet" and fleets being sent into the "Outer Darkness" to reave to foes of mankind have only been mentioned in Carcharodon lore. This is not a coincidence in fictional work from the same source, it's purposefully placed hints at their origin. 5*Needs citation. Lets look at that statement logically: Of course they didn't stay there, the fleets including the renegade Ashen Claws all came back(HH3, HH6). Post heresy if these fleets were to keep coming back they would have to deal with Inquisitors and High Lords rather than the Emperor who sent them off originally. Then in IA Badab War the Carcharodons offered up Notices Patent that were given to them and/or approved by various ancient High Lords and Inquisitors for the same type of charter the original Predation Fleets had. There are no other mention of Predation Fleets in this way outside of Terran XIX and Carcharodons. 6Raven Guard are famous for sudden strikes, it's in every example of their lore. Same with the Carcharodons. They both used long range recon and stealth to culminate in a sudden strike against enemy positions. This idea that the Carcharodons were essentially World Eater i n tactics is not true. From IA10: "Tactically, during the Badab conflict, the Carcharodons operated almost exclusively as a rapid-strike force, disdaining any kind of protracted engagement wherever possible, preferring to approach their targets either with extreme speed or by stealth, allowing them to strike with the element of surprise on their side wherever possible." This is the exact some MO as the Raven Guard; especially Shrikes Company. Also "Even their strikes differ, the Raven Guard get into position then come crashing down on the enemy when the enemy's walked into the ambush, whereas the Carcharodons like appearing out of nowhere to take the enemy by surprise" is the exact same thing both ways; both forces appeared out of nowhere, relative to the enemy, and struck. 7The marines from the Xeric tribes did; they kept close to their roots in both culture and military disposition HH3 131, 132. 8No, just because you have Night Lord geneseed does not make you a loyalist Night Lord. To be a loyalist Night Lord you have to be from the Night Lord legion and be loyal. They are still within the Terran XIX culture. This makes them, referring to the Ashen Claws, Renegade Terran XIX with mixed genestock. They could have taken ultramarine stock as well, for example, this would not make them renegade Ultramarines. Or if Night Lords took Raven Guard stock to resupply with, it wouldn't make them traitor Raven Guard, just Night Lords with RG stock. Their identity is still Renegade XIX. 9Modern day RG do not have full sets of functioning organs, but we know nothing of the condition of the Terran XIX gene stock other than it was difficult to reproduce. Corax and the Alpha Legion sealed the fate of the RG gene degradation(Deliverance Lost). If the Terran XIX kept their own lineage, or mixed in stolen NL stock to supplement them, or any other unknown factor it's possible that the modern day Carcharodons could be descended from the Terran XIX. Note I say "descended". This would explain the Raven Guard markers found within their genestock. The point is the most likely ORIGIN is the Terran XIX. What they became in the mean time is unknown.

• "The Ashen Claws, one of the predation fleets did in the chapter on them in HH6. They raided nostramo and fought against the ultramarines." And? There's still no evidence of the Carcharodons doing that.
• "They were gone before V." Yeah, that's what I said, and now you're contradicting yourself.
• "So, exactly like Carcharodons." I think you mean completely unlike them, I already explained how lacking self-preservation does not make you into a rage filled close combat monster.
• "Pale Nomads disposition was cruel, they had no qualms about using allies as bait or racking up casualties to get the mission done." First of all that's not cruel, that's pragmatic, secondly that's also unlike the Carcharodons as they don't work with others, and thirdly page 131 of HH3 says uses the words "NEVER GIVEN TO WANTON CRUELTY" to describe the XIX Legion.
• "The tribal tattoos are the same and the author of it is going out of his way to use terms consistent with Carcharodon lore." Are you crazy? The tattoos aren't the same, the only thing they have in common is that they both have tattoos and they're not the only ones who do that. The fleets dispatched in that image are not mentioned as being sent to "reave" so I don't know where you're getting that from and outer darkness isn't that uncommon a term
• "*Needs citation." Did you miss the main page where it talks about the Raven Guard exiles? "Lets look at that statement logically: Of course they didn't stay there, the fleets including the renegade Ashen Claws all came back(HH3, HH6)." Exactly, which is more evidence that they're not Carcharodons. "Carcharodons offered up Notices Patent that were given to them and/or approved by various ancient High Lords and Inquisitors for the same type of charter the original Predation Fleets had. There are no other mention of Predation Fleets in this way outside of Terran XIX and Carcharodons." Where does it say they had the same charter the original Raven Guard Predation Fleets had? We don't even know where those fleets went, whereas we know the Carcharodons went above the galactic plain. Likewise Predation Fleets were established in IA as a regular tactic, not a unique one.
• "Raven Guard are famous for sudden strikes, it's in every example of their lore. Same with the Carcharodons." Much like how mousetraps and cats are both famous for killing mice. I'm surprised you misread what I said like that, how they go about them is entirely different. Raven Guard have slow ambushes, Carcharodons have terror strikes, attacking when their enemy is least expecting them and overwhelming them in melee before the enemy realizes what's happening.
• "The marines from the Xeric tribes did" No they didn't. At no point in those pages does it ever say they did that.
• "No, just because you have Night Lord geneseed does not make you a loyalist Night Lord." Yes it does, gene-seed determines where you are from, not the chapter that created you.
• "Modern day RG do not have full sets of functioning organs, but we know nothing of the condition of the Terran XIX gene stock other than it was difficult to reproduce." Sure we do, their second founding chapters also lack the organs, meaning that they were always lacking because the relatively short time the Heresy went on for isn't enough time for that much degredation. -- Triacom (talk) 22:01, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

They had to have, otherwise they wouldn't have Notices Patent form High Lords and Inquisitors. At some point they would have had to establish communication. And why would they have such things in the first place? It makes sense if they had original orders from the Emperor that High Lords would honor them and give them authority and autonomy to operate in such a way. No, someone said that they were around on Istvaan V and were the ones that went into a rage. I was correcting that they were gone before that and that the rage is part of XIX stock. I cannot see how you can't see the similarities. Plus Carcharodons don't ignore all avenues of combat other than close combat. From IA10: "In attack they endeavoured to close ground with their enemies swiftly and do battle either in hand-to-hand combat or unleash their firepower at near point-blank range." This MO is the exactly the same as the Raven Guard. Exactly. The. Same. The Raptors, a second founding also from the same IA book, favor long ranged attacks from concealment. They could be the ones you're thinking of. Here's the full quote: "Tactically, during the Badab conflict, the Carcharodons operated almost exclusively as a rapid-strike force, disdaining any kind of protracted engagement wherever possible, preferring to approach their targets either with extreme speed or by stealth, allowing them to strike with the element of surprise on their side wherever possible. In attack they endeavoured to close ground with their enemies swiftly and do battle either in hand-to-hand combat or unleash their firepower at near point-blank range." And now here's some bits about Terran XIX: "Drawing on the demeanour of the techno-savages from which it recruited, the proto-Legion quickly demonstrated its skill at reconnaissance and target identification, and its ability to transition from inscrutable watchfulness to rapid attack in the blink of an eye. Its Legionaries waged war by infiltrating into position, studying their enemy and, when the time was right, striking from the least anticipated quarter and slaying the foe outright in a bloody, yet brief assault." Those are some striking similarities. You could remove the nouns from them and they would be interchangeable. Here's some more: "After an initial phase in which key targets V and weak elements in the armies of Ursh were identified, the XIX“ insinuated itself throughout the region, small battle groups taking up positions from which to strike when the order was given. When the attack came, it was rapid, overwhelming and conducted with cold, ruthless efficiency." That describes Coraxs Raven Guard, not the original Pale Nomads that used hundreds of Imperial troops as bait and watched them get slaughtered unnecessarily so they could close the trap at their convenience only. The could have reinforced the army ealier becaus ehteir plan had already succeeded, they chose not to. That is cruelty. No two-ways about it. It's one of the reasons Corax sent them off in the first place. "The Xeric warriors proved well-suited to the Emperor’s vision, though some observed their propensity for cruelty when ordered to attack as well as a disdainful attitude to those they considered weak." pg 131. The same page you reference. The Terrans were cruel. "It was during these early years that much of the native demeanour of the old XIX, in particular the more cold blooded ways of the Xeric tribes was purged." They're both tribal polynesian style tattoos. They're the exact same style. Provide an example when both "Outer Darkness" and "Predation Fleets" are used from a single source that does not have the Terran XIX and Carcharodons in it as well. The Terran fleets were sent out into the Outer Darkness to kill the enemies of mankind. The Carcharodons were sent out in the Outer Darkness to kill the enemies of mankind. It's the same. To claim that isn't a planted similarity by FW is impossible. They have the same tattoos and war disposition. It's not a coincidence. How do you ambush slowly? It's apparent you know nothing of Raven Guard tactics(Notably Shrikes tactics for swift and sudden strikes at close range and especially melee. His entire company revolves around those tactics.) or actual tactics in general. Because you're describing the exact same thing but phrasing it differently. That doesn't make sense. So if a marine within the Ashen Claws is created using Night Lords genestock they're no longer Ashen Claws but a Night Lord? No, they're still an Ashen Claw. They were just created using NL stock. Second Founding happens after Coraxs' experiments. It is possible that some Terran fleets didn't use it and had their own relatively pure stock to draw from. We also don't know specifically what the lineage became in the span between the Heresy and the Badab War. It's possible they could have mixed their genestock and did experiments of their own. Hence RG markers(can't get those anywhere else) in their genes. That's why I stress possible ORIGIN. They have obviously developed their own culture and mutations over time. There is no evidence beyond speculation that they are DESCENDED from anyone but Terran XIX.

• "They had to have" Excellent reasoning, just assume that's the case with no evidence. Also how the hell does raiding Night Lords bases give them notices from the High Lords and Inquisition? Not to mention if it was them they'd have to prove they are who they said they are by breaking the seal on their sealed orders, which they wouldn't do because it would violate their orders to begin with.
• "I was correcting that they were gone before that and that the rage is part of XIX stock." The way you wrote it says that Corax sent them off shortly after Istvaan ("Early on [into the heresy]" because the heresy was being discussed), not that the Emperor sent them off before finding Corax, and once again the Sable Brand doesn't send you into a literal rage.
• "This MO is the exactly the same as the Raven Guard. Exactly. The. Same." Bullshit, and we both know it. You even wrote on the main page even that the Raven Guard will engage the enemy at any range. ANY RANGE. They pick what's most optimal and then do that, they don't just charge in to point blank range, specifically you're thinking of Shrike's company and assuming that's the entire chapter.
• "Its Legionaries waged war by infiltrating into position, studying their enemy and, when the time was right, striking from the least anticipated quarter and slaying the foe outright in a bloody, yet brief assault." These are words that perfectly illustrate why the Raven Guard do not use the same tactics as the Carcharodons. The Sharks don't study their enemy, they don't necessarily wait for "when the time is right" and they also don't even strike from the least anticipated quarter. They charge in from wherever's convenient, or sneak up from wherever looks good, and slaughter the enemy before they realize what's happening. There's also this bit: "the XIX insinuated itself throughout the region, small battle groups taking up positions from which to strike when the order was given." Another sentence that does not describe the Carcharodons since in the context of the XIX Legion, they patiently wait for the enemy to come to them and they also always give them the option of a peaceful resolution, only opening fire on them when they refuse whereas the Carcharodons are completely ruthless.
• "That describes Coraxs Raven Guard" Full Stop. No it doesn't, "NEVER GIVEN TO WANTON CRUELTY" was used to describe them before Corax was even found. "That is cruelty." No it isn't, it's pragmatic. Letting allies die to give yourself a more advantageous position and end a conflict sooner is in no way cruelty. Cruelty is what the Night Lords did to the populace of the worlds they landed on, as well as their enemies, and cruelty describes the recruiting practices of the Sharks. Also that "cruelty" bit there has no context, we have no idea if that refers to them on the battlefield or off of it, and "propensity for cruelty" could describe anything somebody doesn't like because it's such a generic statement, and lastly on this 'cruelty' point, cold blooded does not mean cruel.
• I'll give you that the tattoos are the same style at first glance, though they're of entirely different things, not to mention they aren't the only ones who use tattoos. Space Marine chapters can often have tattoos from their homeworld, and it would be a lot more surprising if that style of tattoo was unique to that specific Legion, rather than the other way around. As I mentioned before, they wear different armour, have a different colour scheme, and use different weapons. I'll also give you the predation fleet and outer darkness points, though that's just because I'm not going to search through every 40k book I have looking for where else it's used, though I'm positive FFG's used it several times, and I'm positive it's been used in reference to the Tyranids.
• "The Terran fleets were sent out into the Outer Darkness to kill the enemies of mankind." Maybe others were, but this one fleet that happened to have a few XIX legionaries left with sealed orders. We have no idea what they were trying to do, and if it really was just "kill my enemies" then the orders wouldn't have been sealed. "They have the same tattoos and war disposition." No they don't, the war disposition of the Carcharodons is the opposite of the Raven Guard, being brute force rather than any sort of conniving when it comes to even minor things like evasive enemies and they have different tattoos.
• "How do you ambush slowly?" You wait. I'm stunned I need to explain that, you wait for the enemy to come to you, then you close in on them. Yes Shrike's company was one that would approach the enemy, however that was his company, not the favoured tactic of the entire chapter. "you're describing the exact same thing but phrasing it differently." You're just not listening, one is a waiting game that involves studying the enemy and careful planning, the other is a quick strike. They are not always together, you can have a quick strike without a waiting game or careful planning, and you can have an ambush that doesn't involve closing in on your opponent or a sudden strike. By your logic the Raven Guard do the exact same thing as the World Eaters because they both shoot the enemy, as well as kill them in close combat in relatively short engagements.
• "So if a marine within the Ashen Claws is created using Night Lords genestock they're no longer Ashen Claws but a Night Lord?" YES. That is exactly how it works. Everything that makes a marine into a marine is in their gene-seed, if a Night Lord is created by Raven Guard, they'll find themselves taking after Curze and not taking after Corax. What differs is their mind, since who they were before the transformation is still important in that regard, though you know as well as I do nobody is a part of a legion before the transformation, so you're human, and then you're a part of whatever legion your gene-seed was a part of.
• "Second Founding happens after Coraxs' experiments." He didn't experiment on the marines he kept as Raven Guard and we both know that. Neither did he experiment on everyone who became a Second Founding chapter, the fact is that their organs were always defunct like that, even before the experiments. "It's possible they could have mixed their genestock and did experiments of their own." No it really isn't, the only ones who'd be able to successfully do experiments like that are the Magos Biologis, the Carcharodons would not have both the equipment and the knowledge necessary for how they could combine stock like that without causing rejection. If they came to the Magos Biologis sometime after the heresy, and created new gene-seed from multiple stocks then that would make a lot more sense, though obviously they wouldn't be Raven Guard after that.
• "There is no evidence beyond speculation that they are DESCENDED from anyone but Terran XIX." There's no evidence beyond speculation that they ARE descended from the XIX Legion. Look at what you wrote! It's all assumptions and speculation without any hard proof, even the forgeworld stuff is "hints" at absolute most. -- Triacom (talk) 10:14, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

It's apparent that you aren't reading all the sources you're quoting from, refuse to acknowledge all of what FW published to just cherry pick things you want out of context, not understanding what I'm saying, and/or are just plain trolling. I've provided plenty of black and white text copy and pastes that illustrate the similarities that you refuse to be logical about. I'm not even sure you've even read IA10 at this point because they way you describe the Carcharodons isn't how FW does. They aren't mindless killers that use hand to hand and charge in like Word Eaters. The amount of conjecture and plain false statements is astounding. This page will never advance because you jealously guard any sort of objective facts presented.

That's what you're doing, for example pg 131-132 of HH3 describes the Legion before Corax, yet you try and claim that examples from there are used to describe them after Corax. I've provided multiple examples of how two things can be similar in one aspect but differ in others, and you've contradicted yourself several times now. I didn't describe them as mindless killers, I never said they do a berserker charge like the world eaters, and as of yet you haven't presented any objective facts besides the tattoo style. -- Triacom (talk) 22:13, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Just a Theory

So, can I just field a theory here? Bare(Bear? Not sure which, help me Grammar Nazis!) with me on this, but "What if the Space Sharks hail from both the Night Lords and the Raven Guard?" Before I get flamed for suggesting something implausible (because Geneseed), I want to point out an unusual quirk amongst both legions during the Heresy. Both Legions harbored members from their opposing half amongst their ranks during the Heresy. In ADB's "Prince of Crows", Sevatar promotes Raven Guard 89th Captain Alastor Rushal (a Terran born Legionnaire) to his newly reformed Kyroptera. Likewise, in Gav Thorpe's "Value of Fear" short story, Kasati Nuon of the Night Lords is shown alongside the Raven Guard during their prosecution of the Alpha Legion's operations on Pheldrus. Is it possible that the Space Sharks were formed from elements from both Legions? Perhaps Corax took in multiple Night Lords, and saw the return of several renegade Raven Guard legionnaires? Would it not be out of place for Corax, as both penance and protection, to restructure these rebellious ( and potentially subversive) elements into a Crusade Chapter? Or that their first mission was to reunite with those members of the Pale Nomads that he had outcast from the Legion's main structure, so as to bring them back into the Imperial fold without disrupting the veteran's original mission and tactical doctrines? It's a big case of "What If?", but it's something I've been asking myself for a little while. It could be possible, with the limited geneseed research Corax still had left, that he felt it would be more pragmatic to authorize the use of Night Lords geneseed (which the Imperium continues to find remarkably pure despite fostering one of the most murderous traitor legions), because it did NOT have so many genetic defects? Or perhaps the Night Lord members of this newly formed chapter outnumbered or outlasted those carrying Raven Guard geneseed? Perhaps they were merely forced to use what they had available as Nomads, and had taken advantage of quality geneseed within the chapter? Maybe they had obtained Night Lord geneseed after raiding various worlds under their control? According to another user, HH6 apparently claims that Terran-born renegade legionnaires raided Night Lord controlled worlds within Segmentum Tempestus while attempting to start their own Imperium Secondus before they disappeared into the space beyond Imperial light.

Either way, it's just a theory with few clues to work off of. Also, I might need to edit in a TL:DR portion if this block of text gets too irritating. --2600:8800:7500:3300:E1EA:3A50:DE8C:4B8B 05:39, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

It's entirely possible, combining gene-seed isn't unheard of, and in fact in Book 6 of Forgeworld's Horus Heresy series we see a picture of a Blackshield Chymeriae, a marine made with gene-seed hybridization who not only has the same style of tattoos as the Space Sharks on his armour, but he's also wearing the same pattern of armour that the Space Sharks are seen wearing (page 223 if you're curious). The Space Sharks themselves could easily have been made through the same method. -- Triacom (talk) 07:56, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps, but I'm not so certain that the Space Sharks are Chymeriae. At least not all of them. It could be possible that the chapter had a Mechanicum contigent that resulted to such methods in order to preserve or even re-found the chapter in it's entirety. I think the truth is probably a far more complex web of secrets. --2600:8800:7500:3300:3048:9E0D:E9FD:B55 00:34, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

...which, considering GW's fluff consistency in the past decade, could be any-fucking-thing. The only thing we're absolutely certain about is that there's Raven Guard gene-seed in there somewhere and that's about it. For all we know there's more Alpha Legion fuckery going on in here but that's beyond us. The rest is speculation.

*sigh* Fucking Hydra humpers.... Those guys overcomplicate EVERYTHING! --2600:8800:7500:3300:3D16:1F10:87B2:42B8 15:25, 23 June 2016 (UTC)