Talk:Star Trek
From 1d4chan
Why is "The Orville" on this page? It's a homage to Star Trek but it's not part of the Star Trek canon. -- Flufflion 13:13, 8 March 2018
Will you ignorant niggaz PLEASE calm the fuck down with the dits? Yes, the movie sucked, I suggest you come to terms with it. Merge the pages, calm your tits and carry on. -- Biggus Berrus 17:12, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
Why the FUCK is there sci-fi nerdboy rage over canon when this is supposed to be a wiki about tabletop games? And where's the fucking GAMES in this article? I'm going to fix this. --NotBrandX 19:58, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
re: contributions to the world Whoever is writing that stuff, dude, if you keep sucking their dicks that hard there will be nothing left for them to pee with. --206.248.139.149 18:34, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
- Seriously, this is not the place for your Roddenberry erofic. Never mind that these myths about Star Trek 'inventing' scientific and technological concepts are simply wrong. Just stick to the /tg/ relevant material and we can all avoid colossal butthurt flamewars. --Furore23 18:57, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
- Star Trek, first airing in 1966, inspired LEDs, first made in 1962 based on principles established in 1907. Star Trek (1966) invented particle weapons, and thus inspired the ray guns in The War of the Worlds (1898), Buck Rogers (1928), Flash Gordon (1934) and Dan Dare (1950), as well as Tesla's claims about his "Death Ray" (starting in roughly 1900). Star Trek (1966) inspired cloaking devices, like Siegfried's Tarnkappe in the Nibelungenlied (roughly 1000 AD). And as for using advanced alloys, it's pretty obvious that Star Trek (1966) inspired the Bronze Age (~2500BC).
- All these lists ever do is show how the person posting them is ignorant of anything that isn't Star Trek. Tim 00:00, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
This page is still something straight out of the Eye of Terror. To be expected, given the subject, but still.
I want to suggest that topics like Star Trek don't need to be explained in detail, as though to someone who hasn't heard of it before. Wikipedia, TVTropes, and Trek wikis ALREADY exist, so refer to them if necessary. Just cover the /tg/ relevant stuff, instead of driving yourself mad trying to create a new Treklopaedia. --Furore23 (talk) 19:50, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
- Which is why there doesn't need to be a Warhammer 40k page here, right? I mean, isn't the audience already supposed to be familiar with it? Why bother making a bunch of pages codifying stuff people already know? --50.202.169.44 01:15, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
- More or less right. The WH40K pages do NOT need to be, and should not be, complete repeats of material that is in the game books or other material. It should be board related, or commentary, or hobby-culture reference. This wiki doesn't exist to replicate every RPG or wargame or franchise manual that already exists.
Sidetrack: Reviewing The Orville[edit]
To go on a tangent, the Orville is a Star Trek "homage" made by Seth Macfarlane. There is some contention between myself and one other editor (assuming the other person isn't a sockpuppet) about edits on this section, particularly in relation to how Seth pushes atheism and strawmans religion and religious people in The Orville. While Roddenberry had similar views on religion to Seth, Star Trek was more neutral on the subject (as with the Bajorans), so I think it is worth mentioning. I suspect the people protesting this mention agree with the one-sided message Seth is trying to push and silence any criticism of that message, but let's discuss this in case others have some ideas for how to resolve this. How should the article about The Orville go? -- Flufflion 18:50, 24 June 2019
- That is not being 'neutral', this is singling out and taking particular offense at the nature of the series villains. There are many theocratic villains in fiction and frankly the reasons for this are obvious even to someone who is religious, religious fundamentalists have done a lot of horrible things in the name of their faith. The Imperium of Man is not a very kind depiction of organized religion either even in a world where the existence of Gods is a clear objective fact. Hell the Krill have even had at least some marginally sympathetic moments (such as saving the Union from annihilation at the hands of the Kaylon). But beyond that there are a fair deal of rather obvious steps between Reverend Susan Sandwich who makes sometimes soppy but sincere and kind sermons about loving one's neighbor and a Militaristic Xenophobic Theocracy.--A Walrus (talk) 09:09, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
- Then why does the article on Star Trek: Discovery lament the jab at Trump supporters? That's not neutral either. I know there are villains who aren't religious in the Orville, my problem here is the lack of heroic, positive or good characters who are religious. The Krill only save the Union for the same reason that Nagash helped the other Incarnates in The End Times, and I suspect that was only added due to people complaining about the one-sided villains; I'm not the only person whose made these complaints and even non-religious people have called Seth out on these things (just look at the Family Guy backlash). I wouldn't have raised this complaint if there were religious characters in The Orville who were heroes and religion gets positive portrayals as well as negative, just like what happens in real-life. I would even have accepted, if not agreed with, the Krill as they are if that was the case, but it wasn't. About religious fundamentalists, here's a bit of trivia: World War 1 was fought by people of all beliefs for secular reasons yet killed more people than The Crusades, The Spanish Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials and every Islamic terrorist attack from 9/11 to the present day including the recent Sri Lanka Easter Bombings; so more people died for reasons not involving religion in four years than did so in hundreds of years (The Spanish Inquisition was in power for over 350 years). Also, Stalin had thousands of clergymen executed in his attempt to purge religion from Russia and replace it with atheism - about as many people as were killed by the Spanish Inquisition. But the death toll it took the Spanish Inquisition over 350 years to cause, Stalin caused in less than 20 years... and the Catholic Church still gets grief for the Spanish Inquisition today over 180 years after the Spanish Inquisition ended (talk about salt) while there are people alive today who lived under Stalin's tyranny. Back on topic, I'll consider trimming the text, but still say the one-sided pushing of atheism should be mentioned. What say you? -- Flufflion 19:20, 24 June 2019
- Those specific arguements are rather poor for a variety of reasons (there were more people to kill in the 20th century, killing is easier with modern weapons, the Taipei Rebellion and the 30 Years War were very bloody even with muskets and swords). Sufficed to say Religious Warfare can definitely be exceptionally nasty even between faiths which see the heretics as people who've been decieved rather than soulless animals (some people in the colonial period believed in Polygenesis: that native americans and black people were not descended from Adam and Eve and were souless animals who could mimic human behavior that real people had Dominion over, not a position that anything but a few racist loons hold to nowadays and or theologically sound, but it was one held in the 1700s) and theocracy is a horrible system of government even if you have nasty non religious conflicts as well. But beyond that the Nagash comparison does not hold up. The Krill did not immediately jump on the weakened union fleet and acted fairly honorably in Blood of Patriots ("stop harboring the terrorist who blew up our ships" is not an unreasonable thing to be mad about or stall diplomatic talks). In Mad Idolatry the medieval pope is shown to be receptive to positive change and reform after meeting Kelly. Nor is irreligion presented as a universal source of virtue in The Orville with non religious villains. As for the Trump stuff, they probably should be excised as well. Long Story Short Star Trek has always been left leaning. A lot of stuff in TNG or Voyager makes the Orville look absolutely subtle.--A Walrus (talk) 10:28, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
- There is more to those arguments than you realize. For one thing, the vastly different timespans (4 years vs 400+ years) offset the difference in technology and the populations at the time. Also, the 30 Year War was a war that began as as a religious war and partway through changed into a political war, and the Taipei Rebellion had other things mixed into it so it wasn't solely a religious war. On that note, Marxism is an atheistic political ideology that has caused more deaths than all the religious I previously mentioned combined, and still has a lower death toll even if the Taiping rebellion is thrown in. I'm not saying that religious warfare isn't nasty, it can be and has been. Not to mention the "religion can be nasty too" message has been done so often it's a science fiction cliche and discriminatory stereotype and others have said it better (such as the Halo and Warhammer 40k franchises). Theocracies can be good or bad; Vatican City is a theocracy, would you say that's lacking in liberty and good living conditions? It currently has more of both than China, the most atheistic country in the world. The comparison to Nagash was about how in the End Times and Age of Sigmar, Nagash is still an evil monster and a villain and the people of the setting would be better of without him but he helped the good guys out of self-interest; same thing with the Krill story-wise. In the episode where the Krill helped saved the Union they first had to convince the Krill leader Commander Dalek (get it, Dalek! GET IT, DALEK!?). While it's true irreligion isn't presented as a universal source of virtue, the problem is religiosity is presented as a universal source of destruction and stupidity (Seth even argues such in a puerile strawman debate in the episode "Nothing Here but us Fish", also how did the Krill teacher escape by the way?). In the first season one quarter of the episodes were about bashing religion; even Star Trek never got that repetitive with it. When there's a religious character in The Orville who is portrayed positively while still being religious, their religion has positive aspects and they aren't or have never been an antagonist or villain, then I'll consider it. Here's a final bit of food for thought; though I disagree with and oppose pushing atheism, all I said in the article was that The Orville is preachy about atheism, not that it was bad (even non-religous people have called Seth preachy about atheism), and even the editor below has conceded I have a point and to elaborate on what I said in the edit reasons, on some subjects and especially religion, The Orville makes Star Trek look subtle and as anti-religious as The Chronicles of Narnia. So what say you now?--Flufflion (talk) 00:19, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
- "Soully a Religious War" is an unreasonable standard since you can always point to some minor secular point (for that matter there was some religious propaganda employed during WWI, not that these conflicts were primarily religiously motivated) to say that said war was not motivated by Religion and there are more instances of widespread slaughter motivated by religion that can be listed (the Aztecs, the Spanish Conquests in the New World, more conflicts in the Protestant Reformation and more) and the timescale was not 400 years vs 4 for the thirty years war or the Taiping Rebellion. You can't say that the Union would be better off without the Krill given that we saw what happened to the Union if they did not come in (it was destroyed). The Vatican is an entirely different kettle of Fish to the PRC in every respect and there a reason why The Founding Fathers and many subsequent groups believe in keeping organized religion out of politics. Singling out Communism at it's worst is disengious given the size of the populations, especially since the Nazis on the same time period were worse (see Generalplan Ost) and if not theocratic were not atheistic (in short they were fine with religion but wanted religion which suited the needs of Nazism). If "militaristic theocracy and fanatical holy warriors are bad" is a cliche so is "Knights wore Heavy Armor", being based on solid precedent. What Mercer argues in "Nothing Left on Earth Excepting Fishes" is that if the Krill continue to make enemies by "dehumanizing" everyone else and attacking them they'll eventually get themselves destroyed (hence the episode's title quote). Besides, going after this point is not being "Neutral". This is fixation at a specific point that the series makes. TNG's had numerous condemnations of American Society as did DS9 and Enterprise which many conservatives would find objectionable or the fact that they chickened out on LGBT issues despite this, the stupid stereotypes involving Native Americans in Voyager or the weird Irish stereotypes in "Up The Long Ladder" but the articles on those series does not dwell on these. In any case there is a world of difference between the average first world church/synagogue/whatever in a secular democracy and the one official religious order of a militaristic theocratic state. One that the average viewer can see and make out. Just like how they can see the difference between a Gestapo Officer and Pauline the Friendly neighborhood Police Officer.--A Walrus (talk) 21:50, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
- I know we're getting off topic, but this debate is interesting. A war having religious propaganda doesn't make it a religious war, so I'll concede that point about solely a religious war, yet every religious war has had other factors, so laying the harm caused solely at the feet of religion is disingenuous - the 30 years War stopped being a religious war and became a political war, yet it didn't end when the religious aspects were removed, so it wasn't all religion's fault. Religion can and has also been a positive influence, as there are more examples of charity and religiously motivated compassion than can be listed (from personal stories to groups like The Salvation Army). The 4 years vs 400 year was a rough example, to elaborate; The Crusades lasted 196 years, the Spanish Inquisition lasted 354 years, the Salem Witch Trials only lasted one year (Salem Witch Trials is often incorrectly used as a catch-all term for all Christian witch trials in the Western World) and it's been 18 years since the September 11 attacks. I combined the death tolls of all these events - three of which have international ranges - and span a total of 569 years when added up, then compare this to how long World War 1 lasted and how many people died there. I could add the Jews vs Muslims War in Palestine to these events, and still these combined religious wars and killings would have a lower death toll than World War 1. If I used World War 2, which wasn't a religious war anymore than World War 1, we could throw the Taiping Rebellion in there too. Speaking of the Taiping rebellion, it began when Hong Xiuquan announced that, according to visions he had received, he was Jesus' younger brother and had been called to overthrow the Qing Dynasty, so works as an argument against heresy more than an argument against religious extremism or religiosity itself; on that note, don't judge all religions based on actions of one or some - don't judge Christianity based on the Aztecs and ISIS or Islam based on the Spanish Inquisition, that's tarring all with the same brush and the Association Fallacy. I meant that the Krill are treated as dangerous villains until the Kaylons come along, just like Nagash was in the End Times (and I suspect this was a different direction from what Seth originally intended). This isn't about communism, the Vatican City/China comparison was comparing a theocracy to the closest thing we have to a fully atheist nation in the world (I used China instead of North Korea because the latter's a debatable example). Again you misrepresent me, stop that; I didn't say it's always bad to have religiously-motivated villains, I say it's been overused in science fiction, and in The Orville specifically it's dishonest as there's no benevolent religions or good religious characters yet; the Krill saving the Union is merely a "lesser of two evils" or "evil vs oblivion" scenario. If that point about dehumanizing is all Mercer argued in "Nothing here but Fish", that would be a good point, but he didn't need to do that anti-religious straw-manning; in that debate he also asserted that other advanced civilizations aren't religious so the Krill shouldn't be either (appeal to authority fallacy) and that stupid argument "atheism is smart, religion is immature" (appeal to flattery fallacy); again, the Krill he "debated" was that Krill teacher he captured in the first season, how did she escape? I think neither of us is being neutral here; I'm criticizing this point and you're trying to defend it because you don't see it as a bad thing. Star Trek had numerous condemnations of various groups, but it also praised or at least showed positive aspects of groups condemned, something The Orville has yet to do and I doubt it will given Seth's history of using his works as soapboxes for his personal views. --Flufflion (talk) 11:33, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
- The Thirty Years' War was still primarily motivated by Religion with lines being drawn between Catholics and Protestants, both sides of which hated each other. It never became anything close to a secular war like the World Wars largely were. It was also part of a larger series of wars over religion in the time period. The Crusades were not a single continuous campaign, but rather a series of related brutal holy wars separated by times of relative calm. I was not signalling out Christianity. "Heresy" is a rather dodgy concept, especially since one person's visionary prophet in direct contact with god spreading wisdom is to another a charismatic madman who perverts the True Faith and needs to be stopped. It's frankly a way to weasel out of things. If conditions are right (times of social unrest and political upheaval or two groups simply growing further apart) religions do tend to splinter. WWI was defined by new technologies outpacing old tactics and thousands of years of strategy and doctrine needing to be changed for the new Industrialized Battlefield. How many people could a guy with a sword kill in an minute, now compare that to a machine gun which shoots 500 rounds a minute. WWII was not (in general) a religious war. Altruism is not something that Religious people have a monopoly on. But yes, you can have religious groups which are not raving lunatics. Nobody's saying otherwise. Making out a militaristic theocracy as being a villainous is not accusing everyone who goes to church as being a nacent theocratic crusader eager to stomp out heretics in the name of Eccesiarchy and God. That is a leap in logic and one that most people can work out and see the distinction. As for the Krill's motives the Kaylon plot was conceived with the beginning of the series with Issac's character arc. Given the way the show is set up and what it's referencing the Krill are set up to be something in broad strokes like the Klingons are to the Federation. Eventually the Klingons and the Federation did manage to burry the hatchet and get along. But if I may bring up another parallel the Klingons are not exactly a flattering depiction of military types. They're boorish, brutal, like to shoot first and ask questions never, often sexist, scorn anything which does not pertain to war, etc. Yet we don't call the Klingons a Crude Caricature of military people compared to the scholarly starfleet guys.--A Walrus (talk) 04:51, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
- I know we're getting off topic, but this debate is interesting. A war having religious propaganda doesn't make it a religious war, so I'll concede that point about solely a religious war, yet every religious war has had other factors, so laying the harm caused solely at the feet of religion is disingenuous - the 30 years War stopped being a religious war and became a political war, yet it didn't end when the religious aspects were removed, so it wasn't all religion's fault. Religion can and has also been a positive influence, as there are more examples of charity and religiously motivated compassion than can be listed (from personal stories to groups like The Salvation Army). The 4 years vs 400 year was a rough example, to elaborate; The Crusades lasted 196 years, the Spanish Inquisition lasted 354 years, the Salem Witch Trials only lasted one year (Salem Witch Trials is often incorrectly used as a catch-all term for all Christian witch trials in the Western World) and it's been 18 years since the September 11 attacks. I combined the death tolls of all these events - three of which have international ranges - and span a total of 569 years when added up, then compare this to how long World War 1 lasted and how many people died there. I could add the Jews vs Muslims War in Palestine to these events, and still these combined religious wars and killings would have a lower death toll than World War 1. If I used World War 2, which wasn't a religious war anymore than World War 1, we could throw the Taiping Rebellion in there too. Speaking of the Taiping rebellion, it began when Hong Xiuquan announced that, according to visions he had received, he was Jesus' younger brother and had been called to overthrow the Qing Dynasty, so works as an argument against heresy more than an argument against religious extremism or religiosity itself; on that note, don't judge all religions based on actions of one or some - don't judge Christianity based on the Aztecs and ISIS or Islam based on the Spanish Inquisition, that's tarring all with the same brush and the Association Fallacy. I meant that the Krill are treated as dangerous villains until the Kaylons come along, just like Nagash was in the End Times (and I suspect this was a different direction from what Seth originally intended). This isn't about communism, the Vatican City/China comparison was comparing a theocracy to the closest thing we have to a fully atheist nation in the world (I used China instead of North Korea because the latter's a debatable example). Again you misrepresent me, stop that; I didn't say it's always bad to have religiously-motivated villains, I say it's been overused in science fiction, and in The Orville specifically it's dishonest as there's no benevolent religions or good religious characters yet; the Krill saving the Union is merely a "lesser of two evils" or "evil vs oblivion" scenario. If that point about dehumanizing is all Mercer argued in "Nothing here but Fish", that would be a good point, but he didn't need to do that anti-religious straw-manning; in that debate he also asserted that other advanced civilizations aren't religious so the Krill shouldn't be either (appeal to authority fallacy) and that stupid argument "atheism is smart, religion is immature" (appeal to flattery fallacy); again, the Krill he "debated" was that Krill teacher he captured in the first season, how did she escape? I think neither of us is being neutral here; I'm criticizing this point and you're trying to defend it because you don't see it as a bad thing. Star Trek had numerous condemnations of various groups, but it also praised or at least showed positive aspects of groups condemned, something The Orville has yet to do and I doubt it will given Seth's history of using his works as soapboxes for his personal views. --Flufflion (talk) 11:33, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
- "Soully a Religious War" is an unreasonable standard since you can always point to some minor secular point (for that matter there was some religious propaganda employed during WWI, not that these conflicts were primarily religiously motivated) to say that said war was not motivated by Religion and there are more instances of widespread slaughter motivated by religion that can be listed (the Aztecs, the Spanish Conquests in the New World, more conflicts in the Protestant Reformation and more) and the timescale was not 400 years vs 4 for the thirty years war or the Taiping Rebellion. You can't say that the Union would be better off without the Krill given that we saw what happened to the Union if they did not come in (it was destroyed). The Vatican is an entirely different kettle of Fish to the PRC in every respect and there a reason why The Founding Fathers and many subsequent groups believe in keeping organized religion out of politics. Singling out Communism at it's worst is disengious given the size of the populations, especially since the Nazis on the same time period were worse (see Generalplan Ost) and if not theocratic were not atheistic (in short they were fine with religion but wanted religion which suited the needs of Nazism). If "militaristic theocracy and fanatical holy warriors are bad" is a cliche so is "Knights wore Heavy Armor", being based on solid precedent. What Mercer argues in "Nothing Left on Earth Excepting Fishes" is that if the Krill continue to make enemies by "dehumanizing" everyone else and attacking them they'll eventually get themselves destroyed (hence the episode's title quote). Besides, going after this point is not being "Neutral". This is fixation at a specific point that the series makes. TNG's had numerous condemnations of American Society as did DS9 and Enterprise which many conservatives would find objectionable or the fact that they chickened out on LGBT issues despite this, the stupid stereotypes involving Native Americans in Voyager or the weird Irish stereotypes in "Up The Long Ladder" but the articles on those series does not dwell on these. In any case there is a world of difference between the average first world church/synagogue/whatever in a secular democracy and the one official religious order of a militaristic theocratic state. One that the average viewer can see and make out. Just like how they can see the difference between a Gestapo Officer and Pauline the Friendly neighborhood Police Officer.--A Walrus (talk) 21:50, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
- There is more to those arguments than you realize. For one thing, the vastly different timespans (4 years vs 400+ years) offset the difference in technology and the populations at the time. Also, the 30 Year War was a war that began as as a religious war and partway through changed into a political war, and the Taipei Rebellion had other things mixed into it so it wasn't solely a religious war. On that note, Marxism is an atheistic political ideology that has caused more deaths than all the religious I previously mentioned combined, and still has a lower death toll even if the Taiping rebellion is thrown in. I'm not saying that religious warfare isn't nasty, it can be and has been. Not to mention the "religion can be nasty too" message has been done so often it's a science fiction cliche and discriminatory stereotype and others have said it better (such as the Halo and Warhammer 40k franchises). Theocracies can be good or bad; Vatican City is a theocracy, would you say that's lacking in liberty and good living conditions? It currently has more of both than China, the most atheistic country in the world. The comparison to Nagash was about how in the End Times and Age of Sigmar, Nagash is still an evil monster and a villain and the people of the setting would be better of without him but he helped the good guys out of self-interest; same thing with the Krill story-wise. In the episode where the Krill helped saved the Union they first had to convince the Krill leader Commander Dalek (get it, Dalek! GET IT, DALEK!?). While it's true irreligion isn't presented as a universal source of virtue, the problem is religiosity is presented as a universal source of destruction and stupidity (Seth even argues such in a puerile strawman debate in the episode "Nothing Here but us Fish", also how did the Krill teacher escape by the way?). In the first season one quarter of the episodes were about bashing religion; even Star Trek never got that repetitive with it. When there's a religious character in The Orville who is portrayed positively while still being religious, their religion has positive aspects and they aren't or have never been an antagonist or villain, then I'll consider it. Here's a final bit of food for thought; though I disagree with and oppose pushing atheism, all I said in the article was that The Orville is preachy about atheism, not that it was bad (even non-religous people have called Seth preachy about atheism), and even the editor below has conceded I have a point and to elaborate on what I said in the edit reasons, on some subjects and especially religion, The Orville makes Star Trek look subtle and as anti-religious as The Chronicles of Narnia. So what say you now?--Flufflion (talk) 00:19, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
- Those specific arguements are rather poor for a variety of reasons (there were more people to kill in the 20th century, killing is easier with modern weapons, the Taipei Rebellion and the 30 Years War were very bloody even with muskets and swords). Sufficed to say Religious Warfare can definitely be exceptionally nasty even between faiths which see the heretics as people who've been decieved rather than soulless animals (some people in the colonial period believed in Polygenesis: that native americans and black people were not descended from Adam and Eve and were souless animals who could mimic human behavior that real people had Dominion over, not a position that anything but a few racist loons hold to nowadays and or theologically sound, but it was one held in the 1700s) and theocracy is a horrible system of government even if you have nasty non religious conflicts as well. But beyond that the Nagash comparison does not hold up. The Krill did not immediately jump on the weakened union fleet and acted fairly honorably in Blood of Patriots ("stop harboring the terrorist who blew up our ships" is not an unreasonable thing to be mad about or stall diplomatic talks). In Mad Idolatry the medieval pope is shown to be receptive to positive change and reform after meeting Kelly. Nor is irreligion presented as a universal source of virtue in The Orville with non religious villains. As for the Trump stuff, they probably should be excised as well. Long Story Short Star Trek has always been left leaning. A lot of stuff in TNG or Voyager makes the Orville look absolutely subtle.--A Walrus (talk) 10:28, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
- Then why does the article on Star Trek: Discovery lament the jab at Trump supporters? That's not neutral either. I know there are villains who aren't religious in the Orville, my problem here is the lack of heroic, positive or good characters who are religious. The Krill only save the Union for the same reason that Nagash helped the other Incarnates in The End Times, and I suspect that was only added due to people complaining about the one-sided villains; I'm not the only person whose made these complaints and even non-religious people have called Seth out on these things (just look at the Family Guy backlash). I wouldn't have raised this complaint if there were religious characters in The Orville who were heroes and religion gets positive portrayals as well as negative, just like what happens in real-life. I would even have accepted, if not agreed with, the Krill as they are if that was the case, but it wasn't. About religious fundamentalists, here's a bit of trivia: World War 1 was fought by people of all beliefs for secular reasons yet killed more people than The Crusades, The Spanish Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials and every Islamic terrorist attack from 9/11 to the present day including the recent Sri Lanka Easter Bombings; so more people died for reasons not involving religion in four years than did so in hundreds of years (The Spanish Inquisition was in power for over 350 years). Also, Stalin had thousands of clergymen executed in his attempt to purge religion from Russia and replace it with atheism - about as many people as were killed by the Spanish Inquisition. But the death toll it took the Spanish Inquisition over 350 years to cause, Stalin caused in less than 20 years... and the Catholic Church still gets grief for the Spanish Inquisition today over 180 years after the Spanish Inquisition ended (talk about salt) while there are people alive today who lived under Stalin's tyranny. Back on topic, I'll consider trimming the text, but still say the one-sided pushing of atheism should be mentioned. What say you? -- Flufflion 19:20, 24 June 2019
You're right, that the Thrity Years War never became secular like the World Wars were, yet as the war progressed religion and religious causes ceased to be what drove it yet the war continuted. Also, which otehr religious wars are you talking about during the period of the Thirty Years War? The Crusades also began a defensive response by Christians to the unprovovked violent presecution of Christians by Muslims at the time, yet so many still hold that over our heads centuries after it ended, does that seem right you? With heresy, that's why the Bible is the go-to (whether we agree its all true or not, we can agree it's the basis for the teachings of Christianity). Again as I said, the timespan offsets the technological and population differences; for one, less people died in the Taiping Rebellion than WW2, and by the time of WW2 tactics had adapted to the new technologies. I know you're not singling out Christianity, and that's good. I never said religious people have a monopoly on altruism and that's not the case, I will say most religions promote and mandate altruism and are a positive influence more than a negative one - something Seth and the people who made the Orville try to sweep under the rug, and it seemed I really had to twist you arm to get you to admit that, A Walrus. True, making out a militaristic theocracy as being a villainous is not accusing everyone who goes to church as being a nacent theocratic crusader eager to stomp out heretics in the name of Eccesiarchy and God, but as I said when every religion portrayed in a work is treated as tyrannical or false and there are no good or heroic religious characters clearly an agenda is being pushed - especially given Seth's views and track record. It's also too unsubtle; the totally-not-Pope in "Mad Idolatry", giving the krill temple/church pews with the totally-not-Allahu-Akbar "Temeen Everdeen." and the totally-not-Spanish-Inquisitions in "If Stars Should Appear" and "Mad Idolatry"... and this is all in the first season. People did say the Klingons were a caricature or stereotype, but more of the negative aspects of communism (as of the Original Series and TNG) than negative military stereotypes since no single culture has a monopoly on being warmongers, but giving the krill temple pews and making Kelly's religion have a Pope and Inquisition is disciminatory or at the very least heavy-handed. In closing, name one religious character in The Orville who doesn't follow a religion that gets proven false or shown as destructive, isn't evil or incompetent and isn't, and has never been, an antagonist or villain; you can't yet for so far there are none. --Flufflion (talk) 18:33, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
- FWIW I think that's because the Klingons come across as an amalgamate of various "warrior" cultures such that it's not really based on any one of them enough to really have the same offensive potential (to borrow a phrase, no singular culture has a monopoly on warhawking). --LGX-000 (talk) 05:47, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
- Seconded. There's a big difference between an amalgamation of warrior cultures and the overt strawmanning The Orville does; the Krill follow a monotheistic religion and their temple looks like chapel right down to having rows of pews, not to mention "Temeen Everdeen" rhymes while "Allahu Akbar" is alliterative, and the totally-not-Spanish-Inquisitions which appear in "Mad Idolatry" and "If Stars Should Appear" to name a few.--Flufflion (talk) 18:33, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
- The Thirty Years War did not exist on it's own. There were a lot of religious wars in the protestant reformation. For the Taiping Rebellion, remember that a World War was one which saw widespread involvement around the world. To the people in England or France or Germany or America the Taiping Rebellion was something to read aobut in the Newspaper while they focused on peacetime matters, but it's death tole was comprable to that inflicted by Imperial Japan in it's invasion of China from 1937-45 (which was more heavily populated and the IJA was both a more advanced army and undeniably very nasty). I only brought up the point in Altruism because some theists feel that only religious people can be good and you brought up charity (there are secular charities you know). The defensive nature of the Crusades is debatable and the specifics of why it was an explicitly religious war has to do with papal power struggles who's cause took on a life of it's own and ransacked. The TOS Klingons were not explicitly stated to be a parallel to the USSR even if their relationship to the Federation was Modeled after US/Soviet relations (a rival power with it's own political and ideological ambitions and aspirations that comes into conflict). They were militaristic yes, but so were a lot of non soviet states. As for "Temeen Everdeen" that's just a few lines of dialogue and it's not a one to one thing with Allahu Ackbar or Deus Vult ('God is Great' and 'God Wills It') since there's no mention of Avis in it. There are only so many ways to lay out a temple. As for the Not Pope, he was at least willing to reconsider things once he met Kelly. And again there is "Blood of the Patriots" in which the Krill for all their past sins have a legit grievance in the Orville harboring Gordon's friend and relent once something is done about the guy to continue talks. In contrast the Moclans (never implied to be religious) were a lot less reasonable about the existence of Female Moclans. But beyond all of that, there are articles on this wiki in regards to Tolkien which speak of his work and tie it directly to his spirituality in a positive fashion, even though religious as he was he did not write to preach. Line pro-religious sentiment with opposition to the idea of theocratic bad guys and you are not being neutral.--A Walrus (talk) 03:22, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
- I never said the Thirty Years War existed on its own, I discussed it because you brought it up. A lot can mean any number above ten, please be specific. In my hypothetical examples, I used multiple wars and events that had a total timespan of several centuries and took place around the world, so that doesn't undermine my comparison. Bringing up what the IJA did undermines your point, because the IJA killed as much or more people than the Taiping Rebellion and didn't do so in the name of religion. I know there are secular charities, and good on them, the fact remains that charity has been a part of certain religions as far back as recorded human history goes. Even if the specifics are debatable, the fact remains that Muslim Sejic Turks were launching unprovoked attacks on the Christian Byzantine Empire and European Christians rallied to their defense, and Muslims were violently persecuting Christians in the Holy Land - these were given as at least some of the reasons for the Crusades. You have a bunch of religious group quoting a rhythmic phrase, and you don't think it was inspired by "Allahu Akbar"? Temeen could be "Avis" in another Krill language just like "Deus" is "God" in another language for all we know, but that's unverified so I'll let that go. Interestingly one of the developers for the show outright stated they wanted to show that religion can be a negative influence (which is a one-sided message that's overused and others have said it better), and he specifically cited ISIS and said they deliberately took cues from Nosferatu for them to give them an off-putting look; in conjunction with Seth's track record and how much control he has over the show - he created it and plays the main character - there's clearly an agenda. You keep saying I oppose theocratic bad guys, I think you're deliberately misrepresenting me. I can accept theocratic villains; I'm a fan of the Halo and Warhammer 40 franchises and even said I could tolerate the Krill if they were Seth's only jab at religion; my problems with The Orville here are the heavy-handed references to real religions (the temple layout wasn't a problem but the pews were too on-the-nose, and again the two totally-not-Spanish-Inquisitions in "Mad Idolatry" and "If Stars Should Appear") and the lack of heroic religious characters and at least one mostly benevolent religion that doesn't get debunked. Answer me this, as I asked before: If there was a fantasy TV series where every good character followed one religion that visually resembled Christianity or Islam, every atheist character is a bad guy and major villains were caricatures of famous atheists, would you say an agenda's being pushed? --Flufflion (talk) 01:43, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
- The Thirty Years War did not exist on it's own. There were a lot of religious wars in the protestant reformation. For the Taiping Rebellion, remember that a World War was one which saw widespread involvement around the world. To the people in England or France or Germany or America the Taiping Rebellion was something to read aobut in the Newspaper while they focused on peacetime matters, but it's death tole was comprable to that inflicted by Imperial Japan in it's invasion of China from 1937-45 (which was more heavily populated and the IJA was both a more advanced army and undeniably very nasty). I only brought up the point in Altruism because some theists feel that only religious people can be good and you brought up charity (there are secular charities you know). The defensive nature of the Crusades is debatable and the specifics of why it was an explicitly religious war has to do with papal power struggles who's cause took on a life of it's own and ransacked. The TOS Klingons were not explicitly stated to be a parallel to the USSR even if their relationship to the Federation was Modeled after US/Soviet relations (a rival power with it's own political and ideological ambitions and aspirations that comes into conflict). They were militaristic yes, but so were a lot of non soviet states. As for "Temeen Everdeen" that's just a few lines of dialogue and it's not a one to one thing with Allahu Ackbar or Deus Vult ('God is Great' and 'God Wills It') since there's no mention of Avis in it. There are only so many ways to lay out a temple. As for the Not Pope, he was at least willing to reconsider things once he met Kelly. And again there is "Blood of the Patriots" in which the Krill for all their past sins have a legit grievance in the Orville harboring Gordon's friend and relent once something is done about the guy to continue talks. In contrast the Moclans (never implied to be religious) were a lot less reasonable about the existence of Female Moclans. But beyond all of that, there are articles on this wiki in regards to Tolkien which speak of his work and tie it directly to his spirituality in a positive fashion, even though religious as he was he did not write to preach. Line pro-religious sentiment with opposition to the idea of theocratic bad guys and you are not being neutral.--A Walrus (talk) 03:22, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
- Seconded. There's a big difference between an amalgamation of warrior cultures and the overt strawmanning The Orville does; the Krill follow a monotheistic religion and their temple looks like chapel right down to having rows of pews, not to mention "Temeen Everdeen" rhymes while "Allahu Akbar" is alliterative, and the totally-not-Spanish-Inquisitions which appear in "Mad Idolatry" and "If Stars Should Appear" to name a few.--Flufflion (talk) 18:33, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
I say at least mention it in a comparison to the original Star Trek and add a bit of de-emphasis. (I.E. keep it in the context of the Orville and avoid the "theocratic villains are bad route". Not that euther of you are going for that intentionally, but since we're trying to clarify things why not.) --2600:1700:19C0:2760:5116:D0D4:DB11:E76F 09:46, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
- Fair enough. I'm going to tweak what I wrote a bit while still addressing the original point.
Why nothing about the various RPGs?[edit]
Seeing as how there have been a fair number of RPGs with the Star Trek license (and a number that were "Star Trek but with names changed to avoid lawsuits") I'm surprised this page only really covers the video games and nothing really about the various tabletop RPGs. --Konrad13 (talk) 05:15, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
- I tried to put some data in long ago, further up the page. I haven’t played most of them though. —-SpectralTime (talk) 12:55, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
