Talk:Star Wars

From 1d4chan

Don't forget to talk about the actual Tabletop/Traditional Games for Star Wars. --NotBrandX (talk) 23:58, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

I will try not to forget - there is just a lot to write and points to cover for such a topic: if you have knowledge would you like to add the segment on that bit on the page? - user:Alorend 00:07, 12 November 2013

Why Rey is a Mary Sue[edit]

  • She not only pilots the Millennium Falcon well, she does so through the wreckage of a capital ship. She incurs some minor collisions during takeoff, nothing more, despite never having touched the controls of a starship in her life, to say nothing of a house-sized ship with a cockpit in an unusual place that was designed to be flown by two people. She's not just an ace pilot by this scene, she may well be among the best in the galaxy.
  • She has the know-how to repair said ship, which is over a century old by this point and heavily modified, in breackneck speed, despite having no mechanical experience (she's a scavenger, not an engineer. It doesn't take a genius to pull copper wire out of an old house and sell it on the street).
  • She becomes a deadeye shot with a blaster five minutes after picking one up for the first time.
  • She performs a Jedi mind trick with no training whatsoever, five minutes after learning she's force-sensitive, despite this being a skill that only fully-trained Jedi can accomplish. It was even used in Episode VI to demonstrate that Luke had completed his training, further cementing its position as a refined skill. Not only that, she accomplished all of this while another force user was attempting to break into her mind (And that's an absurdly powerful thing for him to be able to do, but that's a rant for another time).
  • She defeats aforementioned force user in a saber duel, again five minutes after picking up lightsaber for the first time. Wounded or no, this is a total novice displaying skills she has no business having.

All of these are skills without any exposition or explanation, she simply has them. I'm sure you don't like hearing that your favorite character is the result of poor writing, but it's true. Even when disputing some of the finer details, there are certainly enough Sue-leaning tendencies to warrant the link.

Finally, that passage is supposed to be gauging the reactions of two groups to the film. Even if you don't agree with the evidence presented before you, what you cannot deny is that the group critical of the film by and large holds this viewpoint, and thus should not be removed from a section that summarizes the views of said group.--The Forgefather (talk)

I figure I'll butt in here since I'll be mostly addressing the points and not the lower conversation at this spot. So piloting the millennium Falcon was piloted well, and that makes her one of the best pilots in the galaxy? How exactly? Thannak explained how she does learned how to fly, yet for some reason you don't accept that even though you accept that Luke was also an excellent pilot, not to mention how good Lando was with the Falcon despite not having it for a very long time. Lando also didn't train like Rey and Luke did to fly as well as he does, and neither did Anakin. Later on you say that episode 1 being bad has nothing to do with anything, but that's not true, doing something that different characters do is not a sign of a Mary Sue, it just means those ships are apparently easy to fly.
She has the knowledge of how to repair SOME systems, not the entire ship because she's a scavanger, you don't take something apart without learning how to put it back together, and especially when you want to sell it for parts, meaning you take it apart carefully.
She becomes a deadeye shot? Strange, I had no idea that deadeye shots are known for MISSING SEVERAL SHOTS. In the movie she's chased off into the forest by one Stormtrooper. ONE. She only manages to kill him after a chase, which is way worse than any of the previous main characters, and claiming that Leia had a higher kill count when she's the leader of the resistance and would naturally be trained to fight doesn't have anything to do with the topic.
Five minutes after learning she's force-sensitive? It would have been at least a few hours since she picked up the lightsaber, not to mention she's heard stories about what the Jedi can do. I don't see any reason she wouldn't try it, when she's alone (saying it was while Ren was trying to get into her mind is a flat out lie) and if you remember she fails at it several times before she does it. Also Luke wasn't finished his training when he did it, which is why he returned to Yoda later. If we're bringing in expanded continuity, this isn't even new to the series, I've read EU novels where children were able to pull this off without any Jedi training, all they did was decide to keep that aspect.
Yes, she defeats Kylo Ren who is NOT a fully fledged Dark Jedi like you claimed he was, which is why Snoke asked Ren to be brought before him so his training could be completed. Him being both wounded and tired are excellent reasons as to why he loses since neither of them are that skilled with lightsabers, and since he's only slightly better it makes perfect sense that taking a shot like that, then bleeding out through one fight, getting injured again, then bleeding out through the next fight would cause him to lose. You're acting as if she's a master when she swings it as if it's a baseball bat.
Lastly, that passage ISN'T gauging the reactions, you're declaring that she's a Mary Sue, and that some people like her regardless of that, so I'm going to change it. -- Triacom (talk) 06:16, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
  • Luke Skywalker killed how many professional soldiers in his first blaster-fight ever? Anakin Skywalker shot up how many enemy planes during his first-ever dogfight? Did Obi-wan or did he not kill an armed and prepared Sith warrior in a duel where his master failed? Heroes being arbitrarily good at things is a feature of the films and the genre. Indeed, it is literally a rule in the Feng Shui tabletop game, which notes that action heroes pull that shit all the time. And they don't have the Newtype-esque excuse of Force-sensitivity.
A list of things a character is good at is not Mary Sue fodder. Bending the narrative around her so that everything is about her, so that everyone talks about her and nothing else when she's not on-screen, so that she never makes mistakes or her mistakes later turn out to be a good thing, so that she is never wrong, and other characters are arbitrarily stupid and wrong just for disagreeing with her or evil for disliking her: these are the things that make a Sue.
Besides, you deleted my complaint that people are just as sick of you anti-feminists starting fistfights as the SJWs, and I didn't petulantly add it back in. And for the record, I prefer Finn. We've never had a reformed stormtrooper protagonist in the films before, and it's a refreshing bit of new ground in a film that threw in a third, even bigger Death Star equivalent in its Phantom Menace-like desperation to end with a dogfight. I managed to avoid throwing that in there. --SpectralTime (talk) 23:53, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

>Luke Skywalker killed how many professional soldiers in his first blaster-fight ever?

Not many, he was a worse shot than Leia in ANH.

>Anakin Skywalker shot up how many enemy planes during his first-ever dogfight? Did Obi-wan or did he not kill an armed and prepared Sith warrior in a duel where his master failed?

Episode I being bad does not make Episode VII better.

>A list of things a character is good at is not Mary Sue fodder.

It is when the character jumps from being a nondescript scavenger to suddenly being good at all of these things with no training or other exposition. Many things make a Sue, and being skilled and triumphant without reason is one of them.

> Besides, you deleted my complaint that people are just as sick of you anti-feminists starting fistfights as the SJWs, and I didn't petulantly add it back in.

One side fawns, the other doesn't really care one way or the other. Your false equivalency argument is invalid. Also, I'd advise you stop saying things like "you antifeminists" if you want to come off as making a dispassionate argument instead of a personal attack--The Forgefather (talk)

  • BZZZT! The correct answer is "More than Rey does in the entire movie." And if you really "didn't give a shit," you wouldn't have spent hours finding random things a character is semi-competent at in an effort to win an argument on the Internet. The existence of this argument invalidates your argument
Face it. You genuinely wouldn't give a shit if you weren't a bitter asshole looking for ammo in your little panty-twisted ideological farce of a fight with those other assholes over in the politically-correct brigade. It's impossible not to descend into personal attacks against you when the primary problem with your arguments is that you're a shitty person who can contort his thoughts into whatever shape they need to be fast enough to give O'Brien himself whiplash. It makes arguing with you impossible, because you will always think and believe whatever you need to to hold fast to a predetermined set of conclusions that will never change.
The only reason you're trying to claim Rey is a Mary Sue is because she's a woman. And the only reason you care she's a woman is because it rankles you to lose imaginary points in some imaginary conflict with the tumblr crowd. Your obsession with it makes you every bit the obnoxious "No Fun Allowed" asshole your enemy is. --SpectralTime (talk) 01:11, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
Well, I suppose if I advise you not to make personal attacks, it shouldn't surprise me that you do precisely the opposite, and abandon any pretense of argument you may have held before. If you have nothing more to contribute than projecting your own bitterness onto others, I shall take my leave of the talk page--The Forgefather (talk)

The novelization explains Rey can fly through a combination of speeder flying (which got Luke into a battle without training as you recall, and he did a FUCK of a lot better), and she played an X-Wing training simulator she found to pass the time (and indeed seems to idolize pilots as she had a doll of a Rebel pilot and used an X-Wing helmet she scavanged as a source of comfort). That being said, she flew pretty badly since she was in an unfamiliar vehicle and only had the home field advantage plus knowing the flaw in the enemy targeting system to get her through. She's good at repairs because...well, she spent most of her life taking shit apart, cleaning it, and reselling it. She's good at hand to hand and improvised weapon combat because she grew up on a REALLY rough planet and had to learn that shit to even survive. As for Force powers, theory is that when she pushed Kylo out of her mind and into his, she saw part of his training in addition to his hero-worship, explaining why he blatantly said the longer it took to find her the stronger she'd be. The movie being super fucking vague on everything so you see VIII is the fucking problem, that and relying on people wanting to fill in the gaps to watch Rebels and read the comics and novels. Also, POE DA BEST. --Thannak (talk) 01:54, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Luke had an actual aircraft in the form of his T-16, which he flew as often as he could, because he wanted to get into the Imperial Academy, then to defect after getting trained. That is motivation for him to acquire the skills he has, and explanation for how he does so. The fact that the new film has neither of these is what weakens the Rey character. The novelization containing more explanation is nice, but doesn't detract from the poor writing in the film, and honestly seems a lot like someone looking at the script, realizing how there was no exposition for anything whatsoever, and then trying desperately to do damage control. To reiterate: the fact that this amount of alternate sources is required just to make the character work is indicative in and of itself of the Sueishness of the character. There's also a world of difference between hand-to-hand combat and a lightsaber. The fact that the blade has negligible weight, and that one can't intuitively feel where the point is makes it very difficult to wield, and can easily result in lost limbs without initial training. Finally, the film doesn't show any evidence of her being a skilled mechanic. It doesn't take much knowledge to take something apart, remove the shiny bits, and sell them, and it certainly doesn't mean you know how to put it back together, or what any of it does. Her ignorance on the matter is reinforced when, while selling the scrap to CGIalienwhateverthefuck #3845, her only point of negotiation is "these should be worth more/you gave me more last time," rather than technobabble explaining how these parts are rare or useful (and Emperor knows Abrams didn't shy away from technobabble elsewhere).--The Forgefather (talk)
Luke had no formal training. Sure, the Skyhopper and X-Wing are similar, but he was an ace his first time ever flying in combat. How the fuck did he know about flying in formation, following orders in engagement, or avoiding fire (something he had NO experience in)? No explanation, he just is because /Force. Same as Rey. Kylo is not fully trained, and despite strong Force powers there is absolutely no indication he knows how to really fight compared to Finn who had hand to hand combat training and Rey who has actually had to defend herself. In fact, the visual dictionary and Aftermath points out that Kylo doesn't really know how to make a Lightsaber and had to jury-rig existing ones with a damaged crystal together in the shape of what lightsabers in an entirely different era of history looked like. I guess the best argument for her repairing is that a successful scavanger would know how to find bits of tech, remove broken pieces, and assemble them into a single working unit to sell at a higher price; but that's just logic to me. As for having to read different sources, I fully agree. I can see why they do it from a business perspective, but its annoying. It'll most likely make sense as a whole at the end and only casuals won't know, but until then it's worth bitching about. Also, I wanted more new ships dammit. Where's my movie Defenders, where muh K-Wings?--Thannak (talk) 02:50, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
...Also, my inner fanboy would like to point out that TIE fighters are basically a paper-mache frame with guns and an engine duct-taped to them. They have no life-support or landing gear. How did Poe and Finn not die in one? Hell, how did they plan to either land it on the planet or fly it to another system? That bothered me a hell of a lot more than Rey being a character in a movie. (Sean Connery and Nic Cage suddenly turning into stunt drivers in that one scene in The Rock, Ellen Ripley learning how to shoot a gun and turning into an alien death machine in minutes, Gordon Freeman is the subject of many jokes even within his own game regarding this, etc.)
Thought it was sweet how we see Poe make ace in less than a minute over one continuous shot though. --SpectralTime (talk) 04:06, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
First Order Fighters are not TIE/ln that the Empire used, they have Shields, Life Support, and hyperdrive. The one they stole in the movie was specifically a TIE/sf, special forces. Basically the First Order made their TIE Defenders look like fighters which is what the TIE /sf is, and added a turret to make a two-seater variant. --Thannak (talk) 07:03, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
Huh. And here I thought the primary advantage of the TIE (aside from out-maneuvering any fighter but the A-wing) was that it was a dirt-cheap POS that cost nothing to make. Aw well. Thanks! --SpectralTime (talk) 07:08, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Its supposed to be that the First Order are massive Empire fanatics. Seems the new canon kind of skipped the Remnant infighting, Daala, and the Fel Empire straight to the era where Sheev's Empire is a classic look. To them, the TIE/ln is the symbol of the Empire even if its shit. So they took advanced tech to make the old design functional while still being something Snoke Youth can click their heels together in salute to. I get the logic in-universe, but it seems like such a wasted opportunity guven we haf similar, but not replica externally, Star Destroyers. I dunno. --Thannak (talk) 09:39, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

  • Jesus Christ! The Forgefather and SpectralTime, you guys need to both take a breather. Anyway in some aspects I agree with the notion that Rey is a pretty poorly developed character in comparison to the other main characters and her Mary Sue traits are a little jarring. Maybe J.J.Abram could have done it better if they gave some explanation of Rey's sudden expertise in Force Mindtricks or he could have gone the Luke Skywalker way by have two more movies to further flesh out her character but as it stands, most of the complaints of Rey being a tad bit Mary Sueish is genuine and worth taking in to account or else multiple forums bitching about her abilities would not even exist in the first place. Also for my two cents, I think Kylo Ren is the worst intimidating villain I have ever seen, the moment he took his mask off in the first half-hour I could not take his 'Severus Snape' face seriously, and his temper tantrums and whiny voice makes any scene without his mask blatantly comical and full of narm. Derpysaurus
For Kylo Ren, you didn't realize that's the whole point of the character? The point is that he's trying to be cool and intimidating, but he's not. They even say this in the movie, that he wants as great as Darth Vader, but he knows he's not and it's wearing on him emotionally. -- Triacom (talk) 08:42, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
This. Kylo Ren begins the first movie as basically a Columbine shooter, just a creepy kid. Next movie, a serial killer. In the final movie, he's going to be not-Sith Jason Voorhees. We're going to see a villain develop again, but this time without a foregone outcome and without a romance subplot. At least that's how I see it. --Thannak (talk) 09:39, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
  • Just a minor nitpick on mine, I just didn't like the presentation for Kylo Ren. IMO it would have worked way more better if they kept the reveal of his face near the climax of the movie rather than the first half-hour, since revealing his face so soon kind of made the build-up to be quite underwhelming. I don't mind a conflicted character who is forced between joining a side between good and evil, I just think it would be done much more better. Overall the movie in my opinion is decent if overhyped and lacking in some originality (Yes yes I know it is to pay homage to A New Hope, but the similarities are so cut and paste). Derpysaurus
  • Ren fails as a character because he is simultaneously portrayed as a whiny emo kid and a genuine threat. His holding a blaster bolt on midair while holding causal conversation and attempting to rip information straight out of someone's mind show him as being more powerful than Vader ever was, and Vader was a literal child of the Force. This interpretation also fails when taking into account that FA is an Episode IV rehash, and Ren is a Vader rehash, and thus intended to take his role in the story. Because the passage is gauging fan reaction to the film, and no amount of arguing changes the fact that many, many people reacted to Rey by caning her a Mary Sue, the edit shall be reinstated.--The Forgefather
  • Well, if nothing else, this at least allows me to add "obnoxious hipster who thinks hating popular things gives him good taste" to the list. How, exactly, does modifying a passage from "some people think this" to "this is indubitably true" make it more about gauging fan reaction? --SpectralTime (talk) 19:08, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
    • "Many criticize the plot for...having a character with an absurdly high number of abilities."
    • Please, do tell how that passage makes an absolute statement. Bonus points if you can do it without throwing passive-aggressive insults into the mix.--The Forgefather
How doesn't that make an absolute statement? "Many criticize the plot for...having a character with an absurdly high number of abilities" means a main character has an absurdly high amount of abilities, there's no room for opinions, you're stating that's what's happening. As such I'm changing it to "Many criticize the plot... and claim that it had a bland main character, who had too many abilities" since that shows opinion from both sides. Another way that's an absolute statement by the way, is because you did nothing to mention the people who don't think she's bland or that think she doesn't have too many abilities. I'll also be removing the Mary Sue part if you're unable to prove why she is one since all she's done so far is things the other main characters have done, only worse, and doing something that somebody else did but worse does not make you a Mary Sue, it makes you below average. -- Triacom (talk) 20:17, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

I think the reason some people are more forgiving, some less is because people either judge it against the other movies or the EU as a whole. Against only the other movies? Yeah, complete rehash. But when you compare Rey and Kylo to Galen Marek, they're pretty subtle. Compare Finn to Kyle Katarn, he's balanced by flaws. Compare Poe to Wedge, and being a sarcastic badass who shoots down like ten TIE in twenty seconds isn't anything we haven't seen. Almost every book about post-Empire Luke and Leia had "You heard a rumor/got scared and shat out a new Jedi power", and had a "lost knowledge" subplot most of the time. Not to mention how it just isn't Star Wars unless the bad guys have a not-Death Star. While Starkiller Base could have been more creative like the Malevolence, it was at least more interesting than Nihilis's Mass Shadow Generator, and if you weren't expecting a not-Death Star or two you were watching the wrong franchise. As a movie, it retreaded some ground and was clearly intending to leave you so vague you will devour anything in the new canon for answers, but you gotta give it the fact that it's kind of been how Star Wars does things since Shadows of the Empire made Star Wars big again. Again, there's points to both, and I mostly blame bad editing and some glaring mistakes in the script for leaving us questioning key parts of the plot and past rather than the future and side stories. Oh, and not giving us an interesting looking new TIE or Resustance ship as like a bomber or fast attack craft or something. As much as I like the TIE/fo and T-70, that bugs me more than the plot. --Thannak (talk) 20:30, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

You don't need to be a Jedi to use a lightsaber.[edit]

Stop re-adding the bit about Finn lacking force sensitivity yet being able to use a lightsaber anyway. There's nothing about them that prevents a normal person from turning them on and swinging them around. -- Triacom (talk) 19:40, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

True. We see Sabine Wren in the Rebels series extensively training with one, though admittedly she still has to train with it. 2600:8803:1C00:BB00:54F:4008:BE30:BE74 20:09, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
And Finn not training with it is probably why he still gets his ass kicked both times, you don't need training before you can press the 'on' button and not having training doesn't mean it just shuts itself off in your hands. -- Triacom (talk) 20:44, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
All right, I'll take the bait. EU and early Disney canon has been fairly consistent about lightsabers being a Very Bad Idea to use if you're not a badass with extensive training (like a Mando or Grievous) or Force-sensitive and at least given basic advice on not cutting your own jimmies off. Finn is neither. I remember a kid's novel from the 90s (looking it up it was probably "Kenobi's Blade" if you want to go full autism) spending multiple paragraphs on how dangerous it is to yourself and everyone around you, and in the FFG game (as mentioned in our article) you need to have access to the Lightsaber skill to not get stuck missing everything because you're rolling off of pure Brawn. OriginalPrankster (talk) 21:46, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
Yes it's dangerous, much like trying to use a sword and butterfly knives (or nunchucks if you're interested in people hitting themselves in the balls), however nothing prevents somebody from turning on a lightsaber and swinging it around, which is what that part is implying. I also remember a section in a book I read as a kid where somebody without training picked up a lightsaber and temporarily fended off an actual Jedi, just by using common sense and paying attention to where they were swinging (of course that only lasted less than a minute before they lost). Furthermore the First Order troopers do have close combat training, as can be seen by the one that kicks Finn's ass so it isn't like he has no idea of what to do with it. -- Triacom (talk) 23:24, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

On Luke and Rey's Abilities[edit]

Whoever wrote that bit on Luke right below Rey's entry is so full of shit. He was never that great of a pilot? Really? The guy who not only ran the Deathstar trench and avoided Vader's ship long enough for Han to show up isn't that great of a pilot? The guy who can fly an X-wing without any practical experience in one and who uses a snow Speeder to down AT-AT's? Bullshit he's not that great of a pilot. He's not that great of a Jedi? Not only does he take on and beat one of the most powerful Jedi (as Anakin was formerly a Jedi) and one of the most skilled lightsaber duelists, without having much practice or training himself (certainly nothing on what his father had), he also uses the force to blow up the Deathstar by choosing to use it over his actual computer that was supposed to guide in the shot. He also manages to accurately deflect the training droid's shots while blind in his first attempt at doing so. Didn't have any 'notable' talent my ass, especially when Vader sensed him a ship away and hadn't even met him yet. This bit here takes the cake though: "Indeed, one can make the case that Luke is mostly just an observer for the original film-" Because if he wasn't there I'm Leia wouldn't definitely still be locked up in the Deathstar right? He didn't need to meet Obi-Wan, they didn't need to book Han to get him to fly to where Alderaan was, Obi-Wan didn't need to disable the tractor beam in the Deathstar so they could escape, and they definitely didn't need Luke and Han to blow up the Deathstar right? This is seriously one of the dumbest fucking statements I've ever seen. "Mediocre skills" my ass. -- Triacom (talk) 06:25, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

I should also mention a bit on Rey since I'm undoing some of the recent revisions on that. Luke and Rey were both stated in supplemental materials to use simulators and/or similar fliers to their later ships, which explains their proficiency with them. If you want to have a problem with one, you need to have a problem with the other. How powerful she is in the force is also an issue that happened with Luke, where they both ended up becoming quite powerful with very little training. I'll agree that Rey's case is a little worse since she ends up knocking out Kylo Ren in her second movie whereas Luke lost to Vader in his duel, but anybody who wants to complain about her beating Kylo Ren in the first movie needs to remember three things: Firstly Ren had just taken a shot from a bowcaster to his gut, and that's a fucking devastating weapon to be hit by (even the movie shows this when we see Han use it). It's amazing Ren's still on his feet, let alone fighting. Secondly Ren had taken a hit from Finn in their lightsaber duel. I shouldn't need to tell you how much damage those things can do. Finally this is his second duel in a row, which means he's fatigued on top of the fact he's bleeding out, on top of being emotionally unstable from killing his father. If he was any weaker at this point in the movie he'd be unable to stand, and losing in that state isn't something you can solely blame on Rey's skill. If you want to point out how they're evenly matched in TLJ when none of these other factors are present then that's fine, but don't pretend as if their first duel was a fair fight. -- Triacom (talk) 06:35, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

The major problem with Rey is that there is no "fail". In the first movie, Luke didn't even try to confront Vader. In the second, it's end up with the lose of its hand. And finally, in the third movie, Luke fought as an equal with Vader (kinda). Rey, in another hand, beat the shit out of everything in the first try. Episode 7: Rey beat Kylo. Episode 8: Rey beat Kylo. Episode 9: we don't know yet, but I am sure of the outcome. Yes, Luke is more or less also a Gary Sue, but he failed at least a first time before each action (training droid, he was saved multiple times during the death star fight, he FAILED the trial in the cave, he wasn't able to move his ship with the Force, etc.).
I am not saying your wrong, I am saying that Luke's cheesed abilities were better introduce than "I know how to manipulate spirits with the Force without even knowing it was possible".--Gilten (talk) 09:50, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
She gets captured in the first movie. You can argue that she breaks herself out but she wasn't able to leave Starkiller Base on her own and if nobody came to save her she would've died when it went. There was no fail to Luke in the first movie either, he didn't try to confront Vader because the mission was to blow up the Death Star and I doubt he even knew Vader was the one picking pilots off. In Luke's third movie he's also an equal to Vader despite not having any further training the audience has seen from the second movie, which is the same problem Rey has. "Yes, Luke is more or less also a Gary Sue, but he failed at least a first time before each action-" Same thing happens with Rey in Force Awakens, she gets captured by Ren, she fails at using the mind trick several times in a row, she doesn't manage to get herself off the planet, she needs to be rescued and she gets knocked unconscious by Ren, which means Finn has to fight him while she's out of it which leads to Finn getting injured. Let's not pretend all of that didn't happen. -- Triacom (talk) 11:26, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
I was originally going to ignore it but I don't recall there ever being a moment where Rey "manipulates spirits with the force without knowing it was possible". If you're talking about her visions then she would be only one of several hundred thousand recorded as having visions, even before they knew they were force sensitive. That's not something Jedi can just turn on and off, if it happens then it happens on its own in its own time. -- Triacom (talk) 11:29, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

On Ben Solo[edit]

One thing I want to bring up is how on the main page it says it makes "little sense" for them to do that. Firstly how does it make little sense to name their kid after a republic hero? That's one of the most common things for people in real life to do. Secondly how does it make little sense at all? Sure it would be easier to see if Luke did it, but it's not exactly hard to see why they did it since people naming their children after other people who their family knew but had no personal relation to, is also something that happens a lot. This seems more like somebody fishing for complaints rather than legit criticism. -- Triacom (talk) 16:57, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

Its a lesser complaint people have been throwing around, since to Leia he was just a guy her father told her about among many other heroes and she never actually met, and Han only knew him for a short time and wasn’t really impressed by him as much as he was by Luke later. Both had many people they had in their lives who would have made more impact, not to mention names common to their people’s cultures rather than a name from a planet that as far as we know neither ever have been to. Its mostly a trope common to franchises that people are sick of. Harry Potter names a son after Snape, Peter Parker names his daughter after Aunt May. Shit like that. --Thannak (talk) 00:35, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
Han wasn't initially impressed because at the time he thought Ben was full of shit (same with the rebel cause, which we know he changed his opinion on). Leia and Han naming their son Ben would not only be naming him after a hero, but naming him after a significant figure in Luke's life, which does happen. I've got several relatives named in the same manner, because people don't just consider who they know when they're choosing names. Choosing a name can also mean things like a want for your kid to reflect their character or just to make sure you don't forget them. To use a different example, if a close friend of Peter Parker named their kid May after Peter's aunt passed, that would still make sense because that's something that happens. So again, how does it make little sense? -- Triacom (talk) 02:08, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
After thinking about it, if the name "Ben Solo" makes "little sense", then what makes more sense? Just based on the information about them from the movies, what name makes more sense for them to give their son? If that question cannot be answered then the complaint that it makes "little sense" is just bitching for the sake of bitching. -- Triacom (talk) 07:00, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
Look man, I didn't fucking write it in. All I can give is the explanation I see a lot since its a complaint that pops up a lot. Obi-wan had only a major impact on their lives from the meta perspective rather than the in-universe one, since as far as they would know he was just an old dude from the last war who hooked them up with Luke and got them off the Death Star, which is about as important as Captain Antilles was to Leia or Dash Rendar is to Han. Dodonna and Rieekan had more of an impact on both their lives personally, although I think in general the reason the person put it in as a complaint is the public is pretty sick of any franchise that has another generation recycling old character names. Like in Star Trek if you had Spock Picard as the captain of Next Generation. Just change it from "doesn't make sense" to something like "unoriginal" if the phrasing is what's bothering you. --Thannak (talk) 07:41, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
The complaint popping up a lot is why I made this topic. Obi-wan had a major impact on Luke's life, and Luke in turn had a major impact on Han a Leia's lives, naming their child after him could've also been a way of honouring Luke by honouring somebody who had a major impact on his life. As I've said before, that kind of thing actually happens. I'd rather remove it outright if somebody can't give any sort of real defence for it. -- Triacom (talk) 09:03, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
Why not just change it to a complaint about legacy names in franchises? --Thannak (talk) 22:56, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
Because that kind of naming convention is something that actually happens. It would be like complaining that it's a film cliche to have people wear black at a funeral, when that's also something that happens in real life. -- Triacom (talk) 23:01, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
I've gone and removed that from the page. Not only is it fishing for a complaint, I find it hypocritical for people to whine about Han calling his son Ben yet are fine with him calling his son Anakin. You're not going to convince me that one's acceptable as a name considering all he did, whereas the other is not. -- Triacom (talk) 12:08, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Split OT characters into original/Disney canon?[edit]

Should we split their entries so they're listed in both, with the Disney section covering how they fucked them up? --Agiletek (talk) 20:02, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

If you really wanted to split the entries, just have two separate bullet points for each detailing how they were post movies for their respective canons. -- Triacom (talk) 21:58, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Alternative Opinion[edit]

I have never liked Star Wars personally. This is entirely insignificant, but upon recent research, I'm far from the only one, and it seems like the general consensus at the time of the release of Episode IV was that it wasn't great. I can enjoy individual movies for what they are (that being campy stories with generally decent acting and simplistic stories), but the canon in between movies (even just the original trilogy) is totally fucked and full of continuity errors, not to mention the EU, which has always been clunkily handled. Again, this is hardly relevant, so if anyone else has experience with similar views in the tabletop world I'll add a criticism section. I'm also going to make a thread on /tg/ as well to cover all bases. --Kracked Mynd (talk) 23:39, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

Critics and audiences viewed the film's differently, especially when you remember audiences would go to the theatre literally dozens of times so that they could keep rewatching it. I don't see what your point is though, or what you'd change on the main page, care to elaborate? -- Triacom (talk) 23:52, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
Rather than doing the standard "Distribute skub evenly throughout article," I think it would be cleaner to put all major criticisms into a single section. I'm hesitant to do it immediately because my poor view of the universe could have me writing it in a terrible light that would be a nightmare to fix, hence why I've come here first. --Kracked Mynd (talk) 00:08, 23 August 2019 (UTC)
I don't think that would be a good idea personally, you'd still have to make sections for the various movies/books or else it would be one great big mess. Having the praise up top and criticisms down below would also make the article kind of bipolar, when we could just be addressing the material as it comes. -- Triacom (talk) 00:13, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Luke and a "god made of crystals"[edit]

Luke's description mentioned him killing "a god made of crystals". I'm not sure which being that is. I don't know all the Star Wars Legends lore, but the closest thing I can find to that is the entity Abeloth from the Fate of the Jedi series, a powerful Force entity who looks like, and is dangerous enough, that she could've come from the Cthulhu Mythos. Nowhere in the books I've read is she described as being made of crystals (even though she can shapeshift). So is the "Force god made of crystals" referring to Abeloth or someone else? Flufflion (talk) 01:17, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

The story. --Thannak (talk) 21:36, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
The entity. --Thannak (talk) 21:36, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
“Killing” is generous. But since nobody would want to actually retread that story in order to report it correctly, they clearly remembered a less shit version. I take blame, since it sounded close enough to pass scrutiny to what I remembered. --Thannak (talk) 21:36, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
Waru isn't a God made of crystals and Luke didn't kill him, he's basically Phalanx from Demons Souls and he chose to leave. -- Triacom (talk) 21:39, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
As I said, the anon who put that in (maybe it was me, I’m too lazy to check) clearly remembered it as better than it was. Which to be fair the woman who wrote that article says she did too. As I recall Luke gets congratulated for beating it even though he didn’t do shit, and the plot of the story involves a cult worshiping him as a god while being unclear on what the damn thing is other than powerful and mysterious. At any rate, “sleepwalked his way into beating (in a way) a trans-dimensional being worshiped as a god despite being a Force-sensitive Gelatinous Cube in scale mail named “Waru”” does the trick. --Thannak (talk) 21:58, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
I'm just removing that part outright. He didn't kill him, Waru wasn't a god, Waru isn't made of crystals, so there's literally no part of that point that's even close to what happened. Trying to explain what happened further in Luke's entry really isn't worth it. -- Triacom (talk) 09:34, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
I feel like there should still be a joke somewhere there about how terrible that story is. --Thannak (talk) 22:13, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
Oh we can definitely include one, I'm just saying that trying to spin the story like that in Luke's entry isn't worth it. -- Triacom (talk) 22:16, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Star Wars:Resistance edit war[edit]

There is a page for this that you can complain on. Could we please move all of this editing there instead? --Lord Of The Lemmings (talk) 16:02, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

What's "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly" of the EU?[edit]

What does the bad and ugly of that section mean? Is the bad the worst stories in the EU or is the ugly the worst parts? Is The Bad the bad and The Ugly the strange or divisive stuff? If the Ugly is the worst, I contend that the New Jedi Order books while divisive are not the worst; they're better received than the Legacy of the Force and Fate of the Jedi book series (some fans even consider New Jedi Order the best of the Star Wars EU after The Thrawn Trilogy). Flufflion (talk) 01:17, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

Good stories, bad stories, and stories nobody really cared to remember or they were so out of line with the rest of the series they might as well be in a different universe. Personally I don't really care where we rank most of the stuff, so if you want to argue that some books are better than the sections make them out to be then feel free. -- Triacom (talk) 18:10, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
I really meant it mostly for things like Crystal Star which are so far out of style with the rest of the franchise everyone just kinda ignores them because they break so much. Feel free to just condense it into good/bad. --Agiletek (talk) 19:05, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
Personally I'm fine with the good being cut down even further. Hand of Thrawn and Han Solo Trilogy were not the books their predecessors were, and X-Wing was very formulaic. Shadows wasn't even that good as a book but it merits special attention since it was effectively canon. There really only are about a half dozen books in the entire body of fiction that stand on their own as genuinely good books. Revenge of the Sith, the Thrawn Trilogy, Han Solo at Star's End, and Courtship of Princess Leia. Piroko (talk) 02:12, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
The section wasn't supposed to be "the very best" and "the very worst" though, just good and bad. --Agiletek (talk) 03:53, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
I'm satisfied with the current state of the Good list at least. Thrawn, Han Solo, Shadows, and Revenge are a solid list of actually good EU books. Piroko (talk) 22:05, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Corran is a Mary Sue[edit]

Where do people get this? Corran is overconfident/self-centered and suffers for it plenty. Some highlights

  • Struggles to operate as a team player until Wedge personally goes out of his way to beat the remove the behavior
  • Ignores Wedge's warnings about his fuel stats and does run out of fuel for it
  • Tries to abuse the new ability he learns (flaunting his GF's dad) and having it fall flat on his face immediately.
  • Tries fighting with a lightsaber despite minimal trailing and winds up hospitalized for it, blowing the group's cover and and he would be dead if not for sudden intervention.
  • Goes to taunt Exar Kun and gets his ass kicked after he finds out he underestimated his power

--Agiletek (talk) 03:34, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

Can we please keep the spoilers invisible until New Year’s?[edit]

The movie isn’t even out yet, and we already have people writing the article about what happens in it. Just limit the visible text to whatever the source is for that overhaul of Rey singlehandedly defeating Sheev. 02:16, 19 December 2019 (UTC) Why contain it? From what I've seen sparing people from paying for it (unless they were idiots who preorder things) is for the best. --Agiletek (talk) 04:10, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

I mean, if you plan to see the movie you should be ignoring all SW media until you see it anyway. --Thannak (talk) 05:18, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
No. Spoil the whole thing. People expected this thing to be deep fried cancer and they need to know that it absolutely is. Piroko (talk) 15:56, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

JJ Abrams and endings[edit]

He has outright admitted he sucks at them. Trying to dispute this is and insistently removing it when it's already referenced in the article is kinda dumb. --Agiletek (talk) 04:10, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

His reputation comes from Lost and... this movie. The other projects he's written/directed don't have the ending as one of their complaints, that's why I've removed it. The majority of his filmography disagrees with his own personal assessment. -- Triacom (talk) 04:22, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
Lost and Star Trek are the two things he's most known for, and considering the Trek sequels got worse as time went on its valid. Not to mention its more there as a joke, although it could be rephrase to specifically namedrop Lost. --Thannak (talk) 05:09, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
All those Star Trek sequels... all one of them that he had anything to do with. Come on, if you want to hold something against him then at least use an example of his work. How good/bad the sequel happened to be is also debatable, however seeing as how Into Darkness has a critic score of 84% and an audience score of 89% I'm going to say you're in the minority there. I'm also calling bullshit on it being a joke, that would require it to be funny. -- Triacom (talk) 05:18, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
Then rewrite it to be funny. Lost is easy to mock. --Thannak (talk) 16:59, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
Why's it on me to make an unfunny joke funny? I'd think that's on whoever wants to add the joke in the first place. It also doesn't help that the joke is obviously wrong. -- Triacom (talk) 20:40, 19 December 2019 (UTC)
"Obviously wrong"? He admitted it. There's literally a link given to him admitting it. --Agiletek (talk) 03:56, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
And Rian Johnson said a lot of shit about the people who didn't like TLJ. An opinion isn't automatically true just because the director said it, and the majority of JJ's filmography doesn't just vanish because of how he views himself. -- Triacom (talk) 04:03, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
You'll notice Johnson's shitting is mentioned in the TLJ section. --Agiletek (talk) 05:15, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
You'll notice the section doesn't assume he's correct based on his own comments. -- Triacom (talk) 05:56, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
So you're asserting he's wrong that he's shit at writing endings then? What of his works has such a good ending you don't think he has a reputation for bad ending or even submit as a counterpoint? --Agiletek (talk) 07:02, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
I'm asserting that this 'reputation' that he's bad at writing endings comes from two sources, Lost and the current Star Wars movie, and his 'reputation' is at odds with the vast majority of his filmography. As for examples, I'd submit pretty much everything he has done that isn't Lost and the current Star Wars movie. He's certainly done a lot more writing than he has directing, and like I said, the vast majority of those are perfectly fine as to how they end. The thing about his 'reputation' is that Lost was such a huge hit at first that it became pretty much the only thing people would associate with him, and so whenever he's doing anything else that's the first thing that comes to people's minds, and that's the part I've taken issue with. Why should we choose to forget everything else he's done in favour of a popular tv show? -- Triacom (talk) 07:12, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
Because its a joke. For example George Lucas was involved in quite a few great movies, and some mediocre ones, other than Star Wars. But if you’re talking Lucas, you’re almost certainly throwing in a Jar Jar or Special Edition joke despite him working on movies like Willow, American Grafitti, and Land Before Time. Lost, the Mystery Box concept, and shitty endings is JJ’s default joke that has to be made if he is mentioned on a site that is supposed to partially be about humor. Plus, you know, other shit he worked on that had terrible endings. Like Fringe. Like holy shit was the ending of Fringe so fucking terrible. --Thannak (talk) 16:45, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
So what's the joke in saying somebody has a 'well deserved reputation'? Please tell me how that's supposed to be funny. -- Triacom (talk) 18:05, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
You wanna fix it, fix it. Its the job of the person who steps in to add to a page to comedy it up. --Thannak (talk) 03:58, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
Then there should be no issue if I delete unfunny comedy. By your logic I'm not the one adding it, so it's not my job to make it funny. -- Triacom (talk) 04:03, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
Deleting a joke is only half a fix. Like putting duct tape over a leak and calling it good, its not actually done unless you’re half-assing it. Like sticking the “Cleanup” tag on something, then not making any changes. Deleting text without an attempt to fix it is just lazy. --Thannak (talk) 16:38, 20 December 2019 (UTC)
If the problem is the joke isn't funny, then removing the joke is removing the problem. -- Triacom (talk) 18:05, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Thannak's New Summary[edit]

The result is longer than the other films combined. At the very least it needs to be really trimmed down. --Agiletek (talk) 00:19, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Not my fault that the summary of the other films is so insufficient. They need to be increased in length. --Thannak (talk) 04:17, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
Disagree; I like your take on it, but it's way expansive. I can wait a year or so, but then I think the Sequel section should be trimmed down to look like the two other sections, just with info on the trilogy rather than a whole summary. 06:53, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
I don't really have a problem in going in depth on the sections themselves, however when it gets to that length I think we should really be considering collapsing the sections. That would solve the issue I feel. -- Triacom (talk) 10:19, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
I have cut down the size of the article. This is good, or do we need it to be more expansive? --Lord Of The Lemmings (talk) 19:43, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
The fuck. You turned a summary of the plot into your personal review of the flick. --Thannak (talk) 20:03, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
None of the other sections are full summaries. New one seems to fit reasonably well in style with the rest. --Agiletek (talk) 20:09, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
Just because they're not doesn't mean they can't be. Like I said before if it goes too long we can just easily collapse it. -- Triacom (talk) 20:11, 1 January 2020 (UTC)
Like I said, I was attempting to condense the size of the page. If comedy or other aspects needs to be added feel free. I simply cleaned up the page. Reviews as detailed as the one for the Rise Of Skywalker are not really in synergy with the rest of the page. --Lord Of The Lemmings (talk) 20:51, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

I have put all of the films into drop down boxes as per Triacom's recommendation. We can now lengthen each review to heart's desire, though I would reccommend a trimming of the Rise Of Skywalker still. --Lord Of The Lemmings (talk) 21:08, 1 January 2020 (UTC)


Commander Cody, the time has come. Divide the page into subpages. I've created Template:Star Wars for the division, please move content off to their respective pages. --Piroko (talk) 04:08, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

I feel like we'd be better off with a "Movies", "TV Shows", "Board Games" and "Video Games" set of pages rather than splitting each into their own page. We're not a Star Wars wiki, so we don't need to go that in-depth with the movie/tv stuff. -- Triacom (talk) 07:37, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
Well here's the template. I think it makes for a very clean template. Template:Star Wars. --Piroko (talk) 15:20, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
I said about as much on the Clone Wars Page. The Movies can be a whole page, but we can't just have all the movies on separate pages --Lord Of The Lemmings (talk) 16:26, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
Template:Star_Wars That look better? --Piroko (talk) 19:59, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
That is better, the only thing I'd change from that is combining the franchise and setting pages, or making them more distinct from one another. The titles sound like they're describing the same thing. -- Triacom (talk) 20:02, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
We divided the setting off months ago because it's just a gigantic list of characters and shit. --Piroko (talk) 20:05, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
Then maybe the series section in the template should be renamed, or the setting section should be renamed (or both) because it's hard to tell from the titles how the two differ. Maybe we can divide the setting page up now, move the movie characters to the movies page, tv characters to the tv page, etc. -- Triacom (talk) 21:19, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Characters of Note getting their own pages?[edit]

I'm thinking really good ones like Rex, Anakin, Ahsoka, Obi-Wan, Yoda, etc. Of course I suspect this could easily become bloat, and we are not a Star Wars wiki. --Lord Of The Lemmings (talk) 18:21, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

I could go either way on it. But if we do it, we need to come up with a category and page structure for it because most of these characters have game representations in Legion, X-Wing, and Armada. If we start peeling playable data off into character pages, we're quickly going to have a lot of character pages. I guess it really comes down to how much of a Fantasy Flight Games wiki we want to be. We're not much of one right now. --Piroko (talk) 20:01, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
I'm not completely against it, but I feel like it would be a little excessive, especially when we can refer people to places like Wookiepedia for further info on a character. -- Triacom (talk) 22:44, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
Maybe if more characters get released for Star Wars Legion we can come back to this. Most characters we have info on for 40k tend to be either super significant or have stats to some capacity, or address major crunch, like Celestine giving an army wide 4++ if you play your cards right.--Lord Of The Lemmings (talk) 22:56, 6 December 2020 (UTC)