Talk:Star Wars

From 1d4chan
Jump to: navigation, search

Don't forget to talk about the actual Tabletop/Traditional Games for Star Wars. --NotBrandX (talk) 23:58, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

I will try not to forget - there is just a lot to write and points to cover for such a topic: if you have knowledge would you like to add the segment on that bit on the page? - user:Alorend 00:07, 12 November 2013


Why Rey is a Mary Sue[edit]

  • She not only pilots the Millennium Falcon well, she does so through the wreckage of a capital ship. She incurs some minor collisions during takeoff, nothing more, despite never having touched the controls of a starship in her life, to say nothing of a house-sized ship with a cockpit in an unusual place that was designed to be flown by two people. She's not just an ace pilot by this scene, she may well be among the best in the galaxy.
  • She has the know-how to repair said ship, which is over a century old by this point and heavily modified, in breackneck speed, despite having no mechanical experience (she's a scavenger, not an engineer. It doesn't take a genius to pull copper wire out of an old house and sell it on the street).
  • She becomes a deadeye shot with a blaster five minutes after picking one up for the first time.
  • She performs a Jedi mind trick with no training whatsoever, five minutes after learning she's force-sensitive, despite this being a skill that only fully-trained Jedi can accomplish. It was even used in Episode VI to demonstrate that Luke had completed his training, further cementing its position as a refined skill. Not only that, she accomplished all of this while another force user was attempting to break into her mind (And that's an absurdly powerful thing for him to be able to do, but that's a rant for another time).
  • She defeats aforementioned force user in a saber duel, again five minutes after picking up lightsaber for the first time. Wounded or no, this is a total novice displaying skills she has no business having.

All of these are skills without any exposition or explanation, she simply has them. I'm sure you don't like hearing that your favorite character is the result of poor writing, but it's true. Even when disputing some of the finer details, there are certainly enough Sue-leaning tendencies to warrant the link.

Finally, that passage is supposed to be gauging the reactions of two groups to the film. Even if you don't agree with the evidence presented before you, what you cannot deny is that the group critical of the film by and large holds this viewpoint, and thus should not be removed from a section that summarizes the views of said group.--The Forgefather (talk)

I figure I'll butt in here since I'll be mostly addressing the points and not the lower conversation at this spot. So piloting the millennium Falcon was piloted well, and that makes her one of the best pilots in the galaxy? How exactly? Thannak explained how she does learned how to fly, yet for some reason you don't accept that even though you accept that Luke was also an excellent pilot, not to mention how good Lando was with the Falcon despite not having it for a very long time. Lando also didn't train like Rey and Luke did to fly as well as he does, and neither did Anakin. Later on you say that episode 1 being bad has nothing to do with anything, but that's not true, doing something that different characters do is not a sign of a Mary Sue, it just means those ships are apparently easy to fly.
She has the knowledge of how to repair SOME systems, not the entire ship because she's a scavanger, you don't take something apart without learning how to put it back together, and especially when you want to sell it for parts, meaning you take it apart carefully.
She becomes a deadeye shot? Strange, I had no idea that deadeye shots are known for MISSING SEVERAL SHOTS. In the movie she's chased off into the forest by one Stormtrooper. ONE. She only manages to kill him after a chase, which is way worse than any of the previous main characters, and claiming that Leia had a higher kill count when she's the leader of the resistance and would naturally be trained to fight doesn't have anything to do with the topic.
Five minutes after learning she's force-sensitive? It would have been at least a few hours since she picked up the lightsaber, not to mention she's heard stories about what the Jedi can do. I don't see any reason she wouldn't try it, when she's alone (saying it was while Ren was trying to get into her mind is a flat out lie) and if you remember she fails at it several times before she does it. Also Luke wasn't finished his training when he did it, which is why he returned to Yoda later. If we're bringing in expanded continuity, this isn't even new to the series, I've read EU novels where children were able to pull this off without any Jedi training, all they did was decide to keep that aspect.
Yes, she defeats Kylo Ren who is NOT a fully fledged Dark Jedi like you claimed he was, which is why Snoke asked Ren to be brought before him so his training could be completed. Him being both wounded and tired are excellent reasons as to why he loses since neither of them are that skilled with lightsabers, and since he's only slightly better it makes perfect sense that taking a shot like that, then bleeding out through one fight, getting injured again, then bleeding out through the next fight would cause him to lose. You're acting as if she's a master when she swings it as if it's a baseball bat.
Lastly, that passage ISN'T gauging the reactions, you're declaring that she's a Mary Sue, and that some people like her regardless of that, so I'm going to change it. -- Triacom (talk) 06:16, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
  • Luke Skywalker killed how many professional soldiers in his first blaster-fight ever? Anakin Skywalker shot up how many enemy planes during his first-ever dogfight? Did Obi-wan or did he not kill an armed and prepared Sith warrior in a duel where his master failed? Heroes being arbitrarily good at things is a feature of the films and the genre. Indeed, it is literally a rule in the Feng Shui tabletop game, which notes that action heroes pull that shit all the time. And they don't have the Newtype-esque excuse of Force-sensitivity.
A list of things a character is good at is not Mary Sue fodder. Bending the narrative around her so that everything is about her, so that everyone talks about her and nothing else when she's not on-screen, so that she never makes mistakes or her mistakes later turn out to be a good thing, so that she is never wrong, and other characters are arbitrarily stupid and wrong just for disagreeing with her or evil for disliking her: these are the things that make a Sue.
Besides, you deleted my complaint that people are just as sick of you anti-feminists starting fistfights as the SJWs, and I didn't petulantly add it back in. And for the record, I prefer Finn. We've never had a reformed stormtrooper protagonist in the films before, and it's a refreshing bit of new ground in a film that threw in a third, even bigger Death Star equivalent in its Phantom Menace-like desperation to end with a dogfight. I managed to avoid throwing that in there. --SpectralTime (talk) 23:53, 15 January 2016 (UTC)


>Luke Skywalker killed how many professional soldiers in his first blaster-fight ever?

Not many, he was a worse shot than Leia in ANH.

>Anakin Skywalker shot up how many enemy planes during his first-ever dogfight? Did Obi-wan or did he not kill an armed and prepared Sith warrior in a duel where his master failed?

Episode I being bad does not make Episode VII better.

>A list of things a character is good at is not Mary Sue fodder.

It is when the character jumps from being a nondescript scavenger to suddenly being good at all of these things with no training or other exposition. Many things make a Sue, and being skilled and triumphant without reason is one of them.

> Besides, you deleted my complaint that people are just as sick of you anti-feminists starting fistfights as the SJWs, and I didn't petulantly add it back in.

One side fawns, the other doesn't really care one way or the other. Your false equivalency argument is invalid. Also, I'd advise you stop saying things like "you antifeminists" if you want to come off as making a dispassionate argument instead of a personal attack--The Forgefather (talk)

  • BZZZT! The correct answer is "More than Rey does in the entire movie." And if you really "didn't give a shit," you wouldn't have spent hours finding random things a character is semi-competent at in an effort to win an argument on the Internet. The existence of this argument invalidates your argument
Face it. You genuinely wouldn't give a shit if you weren't a bitter asshole looking for ammo in your little panty-twisted ideological farce of a fight with those other assholes over in the politically-correct brigade. It's impossible not to descend into personal attacks against you when the primary problem with your arguments is that you're a shitty person who can contort his thoughts into whatever shape they need to be fast enough to give O'Brien himself whiplash. It makes arguing with you impossible, because you will always think and believe whatever you need to to hold fast to a predetermined set of conclusions that will never change.
The only reason you're trying to claim Rey is a Mary Sue is because she's a woman. And the only reason you care she's a woman is because it rankles you to lose imaginary points in some imaginary conflict with the tumblr crowd. Your obsession with it makes you every bit the obnoxious "No Fun Allowed" asshole your enemy is. --SpectralTime (talk) 01:11, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
Well, I suppose if I advise you not to make personal attacks, it shouldn't surprise me that you do precisely the opposite, and abandon any pretense of argument you may have held before. If you have nothing more to contribute than projecting your own bitterness onto others, I shall take my leave of the talk page--The Forgefather (talk)

The novelization explains Rey can fly through a combination of speeder flying (which got Luke into a battle without training as you recall, and he did a FUCK of a lot better), and she played an X-Wing training simulator she found to pass the time (and indeed seems to idolize pilots as she had a doll of a Rebel pilot and used an X-Wing helmet she scavanged as a source of comfort). That being said, she flew pretty badly since she was in an unfamiliar vehicle and only had the home field advantage plus knowing the flaw in the enemy targeting system to get her through. She's good at repairs because...well, she spent most of her life taking shit apart, cleaning it, and reselling it. She's good at hand to hand and improvised weapon combat because she grew up on a REALLY rough planet and had to learn that shit to even survive. As for Force powers, theory is that when she pushed Kylo out of her mind and into his, she saw part of his training in addition to his hero-worship, explaining why he blatantly said the longer it took to find her the stronger she'd be. The movie being super fucking vague on everything so you see VIII is the fucking problem, that and relying on people wanting to fill in the gaps to watch Rebels and read the comics and novels. Also, POE DA BEST. --Thannak (talk) 01:54, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Luke had an actual aircraft in the form of his T-16, which he flew as often as he could, because he wanted to get into the Imperial Academy, then to defect after getting trained. That is motivation for him to acquire the skills he has, and explanation for how he does so. The fact that the new film has neither of these is what weakens the Rey character. The novelization containing more explanation is nice, but doesn't detract from the poor writing in the film, and honestly seems a lot like someone looking at the script, realizing how there was no exposition for anything whatsoever, and then trying desperately to do damage control. To reiterate: the fact that this amount of alternate sources is required just to make the character work is indicative in and of itself of the Sueishness of the character. There's also a world of difference between hand-to-hand combat and a lightsaber. The fact that the blade has negligible weight, and that one can't intuitively feel where the point is makes it very difficult to wield, and can easily result in lost limbs without initial training. Finally, the film doesn't show any evidence of her being a skilled mechanic. It doesn't take much knowledge to take something apart, remove the shiny bits, and sell them, and it certainly doesn't mean you know how to put it back together, or what any of it does. Her ignorance on the matter is reinforced when, while selling the scrap to CGIalienwhateverthefuck #3845, her only point of negotiation is "these should be worth more/you gave me more last time," rather than technobabble explaining how these parts are rare or useful (and Emperor knows Abrams didn't shy away from technobabble elsewhere).--The Forgefather (talk)
Luke had no formal training. Sure, the Skyhopper and X-Wing are similar, but he was an ace his first time ever flying in combat. How the fuck did he know about flying in formation, following orders in engagement, or avoiding fire (something he had NO experience in)? No explanation, he just is because /Force. Same as Rey. Kylo is not fully trained, and despite strong Force powers there is absolutely no indication he knows how to really fight compared to Finn who had hand to hand combat training and Rey who has actually had to defend herself. In fact, the visual dictionary and Aftermath points out that Kylo doesn't really know how to make a Lightsaber and had to jury-rig existing ones with a damaged crystal together in the shape of what lightsabers in an entirely different era of history looked like. I guess the best argument for her repairing is that a successful scavanger would know how to find bits of tech, remove broken pieces, and assemble them into a single working unit to sell at a higher price; but that's just logic to me. As for having to read different sources, I fully agree. I can see why they do it from a business perspective, but its annoying. It'll most likely make sense as a whole at the end and only casuals won't know, but until then it's worth bitching about. Also, I wanted more new ships dammit. Where's my movie Defenders, where muh K-Wings?--Thannak (talk) 02:50, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
...Also, my inner fanboy would like to point out that TIE fighters are basically a paper-mache frame with guns and an engine duct-taped to them. They have no life-support or landing gear. How did Poe and Finn not die in one? Hell, how did they plan to either land it on the planet or fly it to another system? That bothered me a hell of a lot more than Rey being a character in a movie. (Sean Connery and Nic Cage suddenly turning into stunt drivers in that one scene in The Rock, Ellen Ripley learning how to shoot a gun and turning into an alien death machine in minutes, Gordon Freeman is the subject of many jokes even within his own game regarding this, etc.)
Thought it was sweet how we see Poe make ace in less than a minute over one continuous shot though. --SpectralTime (talk) 04:06, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
First Order Fighters are not TIE/ln that the Empire used, they have Shields, Life Support, and hyperdrive. The one they stole in the movie was specifically a TIE/sf, special forces. Basically the First Order made their TIE Defenders look like fighters which is what the TIE /sf is, and added a turret to make a two-seater variant. --Thannak (talk) 07:03, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
Huh. And here I thought the primary advantage of the TIE (aside from out-maneuvering any fighter but the A-wing) was that it was a dirt-cheap POS that cost nothing to make. Aw well. Thanks! --SpectralTime (talk) 07:08, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Its supposed to be that the First Order are massive Empire fanatics. Seems the new canon kind of skipped the Remnant infighting, Daala, and the Fel Empire straight to the era where Sheev's Empire is a classic look. To them, the TIE/ln is the symbol of the Empire even if its shit. So they took advanced tech to make the old design functional while still being something Snoke Youth can click their heels together in salute to. I get the logic in-universe, but it seems like such a wasted opportunity guven we haf similar, but not replica externally, Star Destroyers. I dunno. --Thannak (talk) 09:39, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

  • Jesus Christ! The Forgefather and SpectralTime, you guys need to both take a breather. Anyway in some aspects I agree with the notion that Rey is a pretty poorly developed character in comparison to the other main characters and her Mary Sue traits are a little jarring. Maybe J.J.Abram could have done it better if they gave some explanation of Rey's sudden expertise in Force Mindtricks or he could have gone the Luke Skywalker way by have two more movies to further flesh out her character but as it stands, most of the complaints of Rey being a tad bit Mary Sueish is genuine and worth taking in to account or else multiple forums bitching about her abilities would not even exist in the first place. Also for my two cents, I think Kylo Ren is the worst intimidating villain I have ever seen, the moment he took his mask off in the first half-hour I could not take his 'Severus Snape' face seriously, and his temper tantrums and whiny voice makes any scene without his mask blatantly comical and full of narm. Derpysaurus
For Kylo Ren, you didn't realize that's the whole point of the character? The point is that he's trying to be cool and intimidating, but he's not. They even say this in the movie, that he wants as great as Darth Vader, but he knows he's not and it's wearing on him emotionally. -- Triacom (talk) 08:42, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
This. Kylo Ren begins the first movie as basically a Columbine shooter, just a creepy kid. Next movie, a serial killer. In the final movie, he's going to be not-Sith Jason Voorhees. We're going to see a villain develop again, but this time without a foregone outcome and without a romance subplot. At least that's how I see it. --Thannak (talk) 09:39, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
  • Just a minor nitpick on mine, I just didn't like the presentation for Kylo Ren. IMO it would have worked way more better if they kept the reveal of his face near the climax of the movie rather than the first half-hour, since revealing his face so soon kind of made the build-up to be quite underwhelming. I don't mind a conflicted character who is forced between joining a side between good and evil, I just think it would be done much more better. Overall the movie in my opinion is decent if overhyped and lacking in some originality (Yes yes I know it is to pay homage to A New Hope, but the similarities are so cut and paste). Derpysaurus
  • Ren fails as a character because he is simultaneously portrayed as a whiny emo kid and a genuine threat. His holding a blaster bolt on midair while holding causal conversation and attempting to rip information straight out of someone's mind show him as being more powerful than Vader ever was, and Vader was a literal child of the Force. This interpretation also fails when taking into account that FA is an Episode IV rehash, and Ren is a Vader rehash, and thus intended to take his role in the story. Because the passage is gauging fan reaction to the film, and no amount of arguing changes the fact that many, many people reacted to Rey by caning her a Mary Sue, the edit shall be reinstated.--The Forgefather
  • Well, if nothing else, this at least allows me to add "obnoxious hipster who thinks hating popular things gives him good taste" to the list. How, exactly, does modifying a passage from "some people think this" to "this is indubitably true" make it more about gauging fan reaction? --SpectralTime (talk) 19:08, 16 January 2016 (UTC)
    • "Many criticize the plot for...having a character with an absurdly high number of abilities."
    • Please, do tell how that passage makes an absolute statement. Bonus points if you can do it without throwing passive-aggressive insults into the mix.--The Forgefather
How doesn't that make an absolute statement? "Many criticize the plot for...having a character with an absurdly high number of abilities" means a main character has an absurdly high amount of abilities, there's no room for opinions, you're stating that's what's happening. As such I'm changing it to "Many criticize the plot... and claim that it had a bland main character, who had too many abilities" since that shows opinion from both sides. Another way that's an absolute statement by the way, is because you did nothing to mention the people who don't think she's bland or that think she doesn't have too many abilities. I'll also be removing the Mary Sue part if you're unable to prove why she is one since all she's done so far is things the other main characters have done, only worse, and doing something that somebody else did but worse does not make you a Mary Sue, it makes you below average. -- Triacom (talk) 20:17, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

I think the reason some people are more forgiving, some less is because people either judge it against the other movies or the EU as a whole. Against only the other movies? Yeah, complete rehash. But when you compare Rey and Kylo to Galen Marek, they're pretty subtle. Compare Finn to Kyle Katarn, he's balanced by flaws. Compare Poe to Wedge, and being a sarcastic badass who shoots down like ten TIE in twenty seconds isn't anything we haven't seen. Almost every book about post-Empire Luke and Leia had "You heard a rumor/got scared and shat out a new Jedi power", and had a "lost knowledge" subplot most of the time. Not to mention how it just isn't Star Wars unless the bad guys have a not-Death Star. While Starkiller Base could have been more creative like the Malevolence, it was at least more interesting than Nihilis's Mass Shadow Generator, and if you weren't expecting a not-Death Star or two you were watching the wrong franchise. As a movie, it retreaded some ground and was clearly intending to leave you so vague you will devour anything in the new canon for answers, but you gotta give it the fact that it's kind of been how Star Wars does things since Shadows of the Empire made Star Wars big again. Again, there's points to both, and I mostly blame bad editing and some glaring mistakes in the script for leaving us questioning key parts of the plot and past rather than the future and side stories. Oh, and not giving us an interesting looking new TIE or Resustance ship as like a bomber or fast attack craft or something. As much as I like the TIE/fo and T-70, that bugs me more than the plot. --Thannak (talk) 20:30, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

You don't need to be a Jedi to use a lightsaber.[edit]

Stop re-adding the bit about Finn lacking force sensitivity yet being able to use a lightsaber anyway. There's nothing about them that prevents a normal person from turning them on and swinging them around. -- Triacom (talk) 19:40, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

True. We see Sabine Wren in the Rebels series extensively training with one, though admittedly she still has to train with it. 2600:8803:1C00:BB00:54F:4008:BE30:BE74 20:09, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
And Finn not training with it is probably why he still gets his ass kicked both times, you don't need training before you can press the 'on' button and not having training doesn't mean it just shuts itself off in your hands. -- Triacom (talk) 20:44, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
All right, I'll take the bait. EU and early Disney canon has been fairly consistent about lightsabers being a Very Bad Idea to use if you're not a badass with extensive training (like a Mando or Grievous) or Force-sensitive and at least given basic advice on not cutting your own jimmies off. Finn is neither. I remember a kid's novel from the 90s (looking it up it was probably "Kenobi's Blade" if you want to go full autism) spending multiple paragraphs on how dangerous it is to yourself and everyone around you, and in the FFG game (as mentioned in our article) you need to have access to the Lightsaber skill to not get stuck missing everything because you're rolling off of pure Brawn. OriginalPrankster (talk) 21:46, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
Yes it's dangerous, much like trying to use a sword and butterfly knives (or nunchucks if you're interested in people hitting themselves in the balls), however nothing prevents somebody from turning on a lightsaber and swinging it around, which is what that part is implying. I also remember a section in a book I read as a kid where somebody without training picked up a lightsaber and temporarily fended off an actual Jedi, just by using common sense and paying attention to where they were swinging (of course that only lasted less than a minute before they lost). Furthermore the First Order troopers do have close combat training, as can be seen by the one that kicks Finn's ass so it isn't like he has no idea of what to do with it. -- Triacom (talk) 23:24, 8 July 2018 (UTC)