Talk:Traitor Legion Loyalists

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space sharks[edit]

they have been placed on the list numerous times and removed numerous times, because of multiple conflicting sources that exist placing them as one or the other. until such a time as that conflict is resolved, they do not belong on the list.

I'm open to evidence to the contrary, but currently all FW material to date explicitly concerning them has them as Raven Guard successors, with the Badab War Pt 2 pg117 all but stating it outright.

while there is material that is contradictory in book 6 of the HH series, as none of that material can be linked to the second founding or the split to chapters at all, the only evidence we have that concerns the Carcharadons directly are that they are of raven guard descent. while there is plenty of room for the FW writing crew to make a link to a specific exiled/blackshield group in further books, until they do so we have to go on the assumption that the sources we currently have are what there is.

in the case of the other chapters on the list, all of them are -unknown- for the parent legion/chapter and therefore open to significantly more speculation. the exception of course being silver skulls, but there is compelling (and importantly uncontradicted) evidence to support that dantioch's contingent of loyalist iron warriors became the genesis of that chapter in the second founding.

  • First of all, I don't have to prove anything besides that they're not specifically said to be Raven Guard's successors, which they haven't been, so the work's already done for me, and you know why? That section is for suspected chapters, not confirmed, SUSPECTED. If their origins aren't clear and their way of going about things isn't in line with the chapter they're stated to be from, and more specifically conforms to one of the traitor legions, then they should be there. Now as for this material you're holding as evidence, that page in the Badab War says they had some markers that were also found in the Raven Guard, that's still not a concrete explanation especially with what we know of the Horus Heresy, considering that in desperate times marines were made with more than one chapters gene-stock and some Raven Guard stole Night Lord gene-stock to help replenish their own (in which case they're not from either chapter and still deserve to be mentioned here). Yes until we get more we have to go with the information we currently have, and that information is "we don't know" which is enough to list them in a section for 'suspected' chapters. Also the Silver Skulls were discussed better in Lexicanum's talk page of them, go to there to see why there is contradictory evidence of their origin as all I'd do is just re-post it. -- Triacom (talk) 04:54, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Also, something you need to get through your head is that if you want to remove them from that list, you need to provide indisputable evidence that they are not from a traitor legion, meaning you absolutely need to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are from the Raven Guard or another loyalist chapter, and if you cannot do that then you should not remove them from the list of suspected chapters. -- Triacom (talk) 05:57, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

I'd rather not open this can of worms again, but anonymous user would you mind quoting the passage that states the Carcharadons are RG successors? I'll admit that I haven't read the novel but from what I heard they went the route of not conclusively saying one way or another. -- Triacom (talk) 08:52, 19 March 2017 (UTC)


The two Carcharadons books red tithe and outer dark seem to complicate this a bit with the fact the ashen claws still exist and rule a small empire in the ghoul stars while actively assisting and trading with the Carcharadons and claim to be the original owners of the nicor (hh book 6 references to the Carcharadons) and Tyberos weapons hunger and slake. So far its confirmed that the Carcharadons have at the very least three strains of gene seed raven guard (badab war books), night lords (red tithe has the demon mentioning this to the flayed father) world eaters (its all but said the 3rd company's captain is from world eater gene stock as was the captain preceding him and he is made to fight a captured world eater as an insult by the ashen claws with everyone winking at the camera and talking about irony). Now is this a bunch of raven guard exiles stealing traitor gene seed or a bunch of black shields all coming together and making a chapter in the second founding is unknown. -- Zasze (talk) 08:52, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Notes[edit]

Ref tags appear to be broken right now, wikifag informed and markup left in place for if the extension gets fixed.

On the original genetic template[edit]

The reason I undid the edit before is because it's incorrect, and I'll try to explain why in a second because even though the current paragraph on the main page is significantly better, it's still not quite accurate and has a great big gaping hole.

Let's go over what we know: the Emperor made the Space Marines from the genetic info left over from their Primarchs, who were created from a genetic template. Making a new gene-seed from this template therefore wouldn't be something you could just plug in and call it a day, because it's still a full step removed from a Space Marine's gene-seed. Furthermore if this really was something you could plug into Marines, the Emperor's Children would not have been on the verge of dying out before Fulgrim was found, since they could've used the original template to fill in whatever was missing or they could've used it to replace whatever was malfunctioning. Corax also wouldn't have had to contend with his mutated Raptors, since he could've just used the original template if it was an option.

This is moot though, because it ignores the fact that even if the Emperor wanted to make gene-seed through the original template, he was unable to because he needed to remain on the throne at all times. There was no point where he could've snuck off to his lab to make any alterations or produce a new gene-seed. This is the great big massive hole that the original template theory has, and it's why it's the least plausible out of all of them. -- Triacom (talk) 02:13, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

Except whats there saying he couldn't have his army of scientists and engineers do it under his orders? We already know he didn't even design the Black Carapace gene-seed, that was Ezekiel Seydane.TheNuclearSoldier (talk) 07:56, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
You assume he didn't need to be there to design a new type of gene-seed that's superior to the other variants, nothing in the lore suggests that, and in fact when the AdMech tried that thousands of years later it was almost entirely a disaster. It took thousands of years after that still for them to finish making actual advancements, so it's unreasonable to assume they could do it during Horus' final campaign. -- Triacom (talk) 15:14, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Contradictory Edits[edit]

  • Minotaurs:
    • (The ones founded during the Cursed Founding) (World Eaters) - Speculated. Similar battle doctrine. Known for being complete berzerkers in battle. The lore, mentions their geneseed to be "chimeric".
    • (The ones first recorded in M32) (Iron Warriors) - All but confirmed. Maintain near identical battle doctrine that focuses on pragmatic, siege, and attrition warfare tactics (their special rule is a near exact match for the Horus Heresy Iron Warrior's signature special rules). First appeared in M32. Their Ancient Greek theme also matches up with the Iron Warriors, and their geneseed is mentionned to have extremely high assimilation rates, just like the IVth legion of old. Edwin Brown, a playtester for the Badab War books has also stated that the Minotaurs use Iron Warrior geneseed.

This edit is contradictory because it's about the same Chapter. The Minotaurs are the ones founded during the Cursed Founding, and there are no other Minotaurs founded afterwards (despite variations on the name, there's only one chapter called the Minotaurs). The older edit makes more sense as it states that these two are from different versions of the lore. It also makes no sense to remove mention their gene-seed may be chimeric. -- Triacom (talk) 14:23, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

The edit is fine. Records of a Minotaurs chapter predate the Cursed Founding by 4 thousand years and reports on the Minotaurs display two clearly different chapter combat doctrines. TheNuclearSoldier (talk) 14:58, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
No, it is not. Time travel is a thing in 40k and the Minotaurs were retconned into being what you claim is the latter chapter, unless you care to explain to me why both are credited as doing the exact same things because in both versions of the lore they are given the same battles/victories. -- Triacom (talk) 15:01, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

I literally went and talked with Edawin about this. Pester me later and I'll give you screencaps of the discussion. You are pulling excuses from your ass when you are just plain wrong.TheNuclearSoldier (talk) 15:06, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Again, please explain to me how two Chapters are both stated to have done the exact same things, for example, you're claiming that both Chapters are given credit for crushing the Lamenters and Mantis Warriors. -- Triacom (talk) 15:07, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
They aren't stated to have done the exact same things. The only thing they had in common was their name. They had different behaviors (with the Cursed Founding Minotaurs being barely contained berzerkers whose only plan was "Just rush them", and with markedly unstable geneseed. The other Minotaurs first appeared in M32, working with other Imperial forces in suppression of the Solar Rebellion. And thier geneseed is noted as highly stable, allowing for easier geneseed implantation in recruits. If you read the actual lore, you'd know that working with other Imperial forces is not something the Cursed Founding Minotaurs did. The Cursed Founding Minotaurs also responded to almost any requests for aid, in order to rush headlong into the next battle, while the other Minotaurs pretty much only respond to requests from the High Lords, normally tasking them with putting down rebellious forces. TheNuclearSoldier (talk) 15:12, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
They are stated to have done the same things, even in the Cursed Founding article they include that the Minotaurs crushed the Lamenters, so how are they doing the same things if they're different chapters? As I've said before, they're not different chapters, they were retconned into being different. -- Triacom (talk) 15:18, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
"The Minotaurs' most famous action, and the only one for which they have been officially recognised, was their assault on the Lamenters' fleet during the Badab Uprising. The Lamenters, thought also to be a 21st Founding Chapter, had sided with the rebel Astral Claws in the uprising, and the Minotaurs vented their full fury on their wayward kin in a series of savage boarding actions that severely depleted the Lamenters' numbers and forced their eventual surrender." That's from the Cursed Founding article, so explain to me how two Chapters could've done the same thing. -- Triacom (talk) 15:23, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Read the source books, not that shitty wiki. At the very least read the Lexicanum, they atleast properly cite their info.TheNuclearSoldier (talk) 15:26, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

That passage is taken directly from the GW Cursed Founding article, printed in White Dwarf and later Chapter Approved 2004. It's not from any internet page. Next time you should look up your sources before assuming you're right. -- Triacom (talk) 15:28, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
I don't see how this is conflicting info with what is written in the Imperial Armour books.TheNuclearSoldier (talk) 16:27, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
It's not, unless you want to claim that the Cursed Founding Chapter called Minotaurs are different from the Minotaurs that are in the Imperial Armour books, which is what you're doing. In that case it is conflicting info because you're claiming that two groups did the exact same things. -- Triacom (talk) 16:29, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
Dude. Are you serious right now? There have been a chapter called the Minotaurs since M32. The Cursed Founding was in M36. One chapter called the Minotaurs were known for refusing to work with other Imperial Forces, not making battle plans, responding to any call for aid just so they could get into a fight, had notedly unstable geneseed, and we're know as being berzerkers. The other chapter of Minotaurs actively work alongside other Imperial forces, are so detailed on their battle plans that their chapter master literally calculates how many drops of blood will be spilled, only respond to requests from the high Lords, have exceptionally stable geneseed, and are noted as "brooding, maligned, and paranoid. And surprise surprise: Iron Warrior successors can be Savage in battle like any other astartes chapter, especially if they determine that's the best course of action against blood angels successors. It is literally impossible for there to have been only one Minotaurs chapter. TheNuclearSoldier (talk) 16:34, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
As I said, the first chapter was retconned into being something else, which is something GW's done before and will likely do again (see Grey Knights, Black Templars and Iron Hands for other examples). Pointing out how they were different before the retcon is meaningless, same with saying they showed up earlier in time in a setting where time travel is possible. It is not impossible for there to have been only one Minotaurs chapter, however it is impossible for two separate chapters to have done the same things. -- Triacom (talk) 16:38, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
When I get home I'm uploading the convo I had with Edawin Brown on this. Nothing was retconned. There have been two Minotaurs chapters. Granted I shouldn't have to as the Imperial Armour books point this fact out.TheNuclearSoldier (talk) 16:39, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
Point out how it's possible for two separate Chapters to have done the exact same things then. The Imperial Armour books do nothing but retcon the Minotaurs. -- Triacom (talk) 16:41, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
Here, they are all out of order tho. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/t1745gf11ncn6ke/AADak_j-hLFOAp_j9aZXGJoba?dl=0 TheNuclearSoldier (talk) 16:55, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
That's a very interesting conversation and I'm glad you've posted it, but we're still left with two major problems: the first is that if there are two chapters then both of them have done the same events (and this isn't something that can be explained away by "Imperial record keeping is shit"), and the second is that as Edawin states, there's nothing in-universe that says they're two separate chapters. The idea that they're Iron Warriors who rebranded themselves after the scouring is a neat one, but until it's fleshed out or stated, it's just an idea, and it only causes problems because then that's asking us to believe the Cursed Founding chapter vanished, or that everyone is somehow mixing the two up, or that the Mechanicus somehow did not immediately identify the Iron Warriors version of Minotaurs as being Iron Warriors the second they received their gene-tithe. All Chapters need to pay the tithe, it's how they ensure genetic purity and how they form new Chapters, and not even the High Lords would be stupid enough to trust an entire Chapter from a traitor legion telling them they're legit. -- Triacom (talk) 17:08, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
Edawin points out that the Minotaurs being 2 separate chapters is pointed out in the Badab War campaign. Yes it can be explained as imperial records are shit. At this point you are unambiguously trying to pass off your own fanon as canon. TheNuclearSoldier (talk)
Discrepancies are pointed out, them being two separate Chapters is not. No it cannot be explained as Imperial records are shit because this was a recent event that everyone had taken notice of, and suddenly attributing it to another Chapter that also calls itself the Minotaurs is not something that would happen because of the scale of the conflict, and because each of the Chapters would keep their own records of it. That everyone involved, including every Chapter would all somehow get those records wrong is impossible. I'm not passing off fanon as canon, that's what you are doing. You had a conversation about the intention of something, and unfortunately that didn't make it in fully and it wasn't fleshed out fully, yet you're acting as if it did. With that sort of setup you might as well claim that there are two Angron's since the first version of him turned to Khorne worship out of his admiration for honourable, martial conflict and the entire Butcher's Nails version of Angron is completely at odds with this knightly version of Angron. -- Triacom (talk) 17:21, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Read Imperial Armour Volume 10 page 104 and Imperial Armour Volume 13 page 21. Your claims that there is no evidence of this is an outright lie. TheNuclearSoldier (talk) 18:16, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

As I said, it (Imperial Armour Volume 10) points out discrepancies, and that's all it does. There is no in-universe evidence that there were Iron Warriors who hid out the Scouring then changed their name and then hid again without anyone realizing they're there and without having sent gene-tithes to Mars. All we have is "Minotaurs here acted like this, and here they acted like this." It's not unheard of for Chapters to change over time, and in their case their behaviour was recorded as having changed after reappearing after a millenia of absence, and identifying a discrepancy between how a chapter acted during one time and another time is not absolute proof that they've been replaced, or that there are two separate Chapters who are outright stated to have done the same events (even the Cursed Founding version records them crushing the Lamenters in a different way). As for Imperial Armour Vol. 13, even the book itself says the event itself is entirely conjecture. The setting telling you "we don't really know if this is right" should be a warning the event is not something that you should assume is 100% proof of something that happened. -- Triacom (talk) 18:59, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
Those discrepancies are evidence. They fight different, they act different, they have different livery. There are reports of a Minotaurs chapter predating the Cursed Founded by thousands of years AND ONE OF THE PEOPLE WHO MADE THE GOD DAMNED CAMPAIGN SAID THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT CHAPTERS. What the hell is wrong with you?TheNuclearSoldier (talk) 20:34, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
Those discrepancies are just that, discrepancies. Plenty of chapters changed over the Millenia for various reasons (see Iron Hands and Blood Ravens for good examples of that) and can you show me an in-universe source that isn't speculation? I can show you an author who wrote that a Dark Eldar is a Slaanesh worshiper and that Terminators can backflip, however that doesn't make it any more true. -- Triacom (talk) 20:41, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

About the Fire Angels[edit]

Gene-seed influences behaviour, but it doesn't influence beliefs, or at least not nearly to the same degree. Plenty of chapters have similar beliefs to their predecessors, just as many have radically different beliefs. A chapter revering the Emperor as a deity is an indication of nothing, no matter how devout they are about it since we can point to other chapters who are as fanatical about it and who we know are not from Traitor Legions (Black Templars come to mind). -- Triacom (talk) 14:25, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Belief is a behavior. Several chapters worship the Emperor, yes, but when you start making the Black Templars look like they need to pray more is when it gets suspicious. When you claim to hate your Primarch (especially if you are supposed to be from Ultramarine stock). Know who were also extremely religious, didn't like Guilliman, and if they had remained loyal would also hate their own Primarch while viewing the Emperor as nothing but a god? The Word Bearers. Plus, this is a list of "suspected" chapters. And the Fire Angels were listed as "speculated" as in nothing solid linking them to a traitor legion, but their major traits (behavior, tactics, iconography, color scheme, etc.) are very much like what a loyalist group of traitor legion Astartes would be like. This is supposed to be a fun section where we can point these similarities out. This is for things like players who like a traitor legion, but want to play as loyalists, can maybe find a similar enough chapter. Like someone who likes the Luna Wolves, we have the Shadow Wolves (this is even exactly why ADB created the chapter, so his wife would have what are essentially "loyal Luna Wolves"). TheNuclearSoldier (talk) 07:06, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
If we're going to argue about beliefs and behaviour and how much one influences the other (or vice-versa) then we're going to very quickly get sidetracked, so instead I'll point out that there are a number of reasons that Marines can hate their Primarch or get caught up in their own beliefs that aren't related to their gene-seed. The retconned Iron Hands are an example, they hate Ferrus for failing at the Drop Site Massacre, both for making what they view is the wrong choice and also for losing the fight against Fulgrim, and their love for cybernetics was also heavily influenced by his death, not something inherent in the actual gene-seed itself. If you really want to add in the Fire Angels though, then I'll agree so long as we mention other Loyalist Chapters who have similar beliefs who we know aren't from Traitor Stock, and give these as precedent to why they're only suspected. -- Triacom (talk) 15:19, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Let's Talk Grey Knights[edit]

All gene-seed is developed from the Emperor's genetic code, stating they use it is stating nothing of value, and does not mean they cannot come from traitor stock. Sometimes the lore says that they use the gene-seed of the Emperor directly, in which case you just need to remember he does not have gene-seed. Additionally, there was no point in time in which they Emperor could've made them their own special gene-seed since he was more than a little preoccupied before they were formed, and he was dead before they ever reappeared. -- Triacom (talk) 14:28, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Also see my point on the 'original genetic template' above. -- Triacom (talk) 14:31, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Read the book The Emperor's Gift. The gene-code of the primarchs is significantly different than the Emperor's own. As a son's is to his father. The Grey Knight's gene-seed is made directly from the Emperor's unaltered gene-code.TheNuclearSoldier (talk) 14:42, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
Again, there's no point in time in which that could've been made. As I said, see my comment above. -- Triacom (talk) 14:47, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
Dude. Dont try to enforce your fanon. That's all you have been doing here.TheNuclearSoldier (talk) 16:41, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
I'm not, I'm pointing out how it's impossible for them to have been given this new gene-seed based off of the Emperor's genetic code because there was no point in time when he could've made it. -- Triacom (talk) 16:43, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
Yes you are. You are going "nuh uh!" When a canon novel directly contradicts your fanon. You know what? I think it's time we get the admins involved.TheNuclearSoldier (talk)
Canon novels stated that Terminators can backflip, that Eldar can't fully grasp or speak English, that D-Cannons shoot bullets, that Lelith Hesparax is a Slaanesh worshiper who lives in the Eye of Terror, and that there exist benevolent Daemons. These kinds of contradictions are why GW's canon policy is everything is canon, not everything is true. Let's go into some quotes:
It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth. - Andy Hoare, one of GW's lead designers.
"An author can say Character X was on World Y in Year Z, and another author might contradict it in something else written several years later if he or she has a different idea. Choose which you prefer? Assume both are false sightings and Character X was nowhere near either world? It's your call. That's the point. There is no canon. There are several hundred creators all adding to the melting pot of the IP. - Aaron Dembski-Bowden, the guy who's novel you're trying to claim is inarguable canon.
"Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. If it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it. Marc Gascogne, formerly Black Library's chief editor.
So before you go around assuming you know what is and isn't true 'canon', you should be aware that the writers you're trying to reference don't actually care about any sort of true canon, and will gladly write stories that are at complete odds, or outright contradict established rules of the setting. This is why this and other pages don't try to make a timeline out of everything, but instead record separate instances of something happening. -- Triacom (talk) 17:31, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
I literally went and talked with one of the developers of the Badab War over the above Minotaurs issue, yet you still try to say that your fanon is true. So there isn't even a reason for me to contact anyone else at Games Workshop or Black Library over this issue, because you will still try and contradict them. So at this point all there is left is for the admins of this site to sort things out.TheNuclearSoldier (talk) 17:40, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
I'm not claiming that my fanon is true, I'm pointing out that you don't have any in-universe evidence. It's nice you had a conversation about the Chapter, and like I said I'm glad you posted it, but since nothing in-universe states that there are two separate Chapters called Minotaurs, it would be wrong take it as fact that there are two separate Chapters called Minotaurs. See ADB's quote which I just posted for why we cannot assume this as fact. -- Triacom (talk) 17:44, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
I think what got me so annoyed on this is that you are trying to say a part of lore shouldn't be considered canon when there is no reason to say it isn't and its been restated in the lore every time it is brought up. There is literally nothing saying that the Grey Knights don't use geneseed made from the Emperor's genecode. Pretty much anytime their geneseed is brought up, the answer is "yep. Its made directly from the Emperor's genes". The only thing you dislike about that is that "the Emeperor couldn't have made it because he was on the golden throne", but that doesn't contradict the Grey Knight's gene-seed's origins at all. The Emperor wouldn't be needed to make it beyond someone taking a blood sample (if he didnt have some of his own blood stored away somewhere they could go fetch). His science team designed most of the gene-seed organs anyway. It wouldnt have been hard for them to just grow batches of gene-seed made with the Emperor's gene-code. As for "indisputable canon", I never claim that when it comes to 40k. But for something to be disputed, there must be something disputing it. Is there a chance that later lore could pull a retcon and call the gene-seed of the Grey Knights into question yes? Does any piece of the lore as of right now dispute that the Grey Knights use the geneseed made with the Emperor's genecode? No. Is there lore that says the Grey Knights use gene-seed made from the Emperor's genecode? Yes. Every bit of lore relating to their gene-seed.TheNuclearSoldier (talk) 09:40, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
The thing I dislike about it isn't that the Grey Knights might be using gene-seed derived from the Emperor directly, it's that the only source we have that they do is from the Grey Knights themselves, and they never state why they think that it is besides "because we say so". That's why I say it's something they believe, rather than taking it as fact. "The Emperor wouldn't be needed to make it beyond someone taking a blood sample-" This is an assumption, unless you can point out to me where new organs and a new type of gene-seed were made without him. Even in the case of the Primaris they didn't make new gene-seed without him, they worked with what already existed. "His science team designed most of the gene-seed organs anyway." As far as I'm aware, two of the organs are credited to other people, and one of those was more sentimental since they were still one of many working under his supervision. We do not know how many of the others were made by his scientists or how much input was made without him. Also gene-code isn't gene-seed, you'd still need to go through the full process of making it from scratch and considering how long it took them before, it's unfeasible to assume that even if his team of scientists were capable, that they would have the time required to do so and fully stock Titan with it during Horus' final campaign. "As for "indisputable canon", I never claim that when it comes to 40k." I'd like you to scroll up and count both on this page and the Grey Knights page how many times you said it was true because it was in the Grey Knights Codex. Current lore does not need to explicitly state the Grey Knights might not use gene-seed derived from the Emperor's gene-code, it just needs to state something that is suspicious. You don't need the books to tell you when something is questionable, you just have to realize things aren't matching up, like when the Space Wolves were suddenly retconned into not knowing what the Wulfen are and not having any after Russ left before M41, yet before they reappeared one of their companies was still led by the closest thing they have to an intelligent Wulfen (that the writers just forgot about). -- Triacom (talk) 15:36, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
The Black Carapace was designed by Ezekiel Sedayne. Then there is the whole Primaris geneseed made by Belisarius Cawl. I'm not assuming anything. Nothing in the lore ever calls their geneseed into question. It's been explicitly stated as made from the Emperor's genetic code since 5th edition.TheNuclearSoldier (talk) 16:52, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
Cawl didn't make any gene-seed, and one organ (if we can even call it that) being designed by somebody else does not mean it's possible for other people (since we've never been told he made this new version) to make new versions of it and 18 other organs in the amount of time between Horus attacking Terra and the Emperor leaving to fight him, not to mention for them to have somehow transported a full stock of this new gene-seed to Titan without being noticed by the Traitor Legions. Furthermore, the 5th edition book stated they used the Emperor's gene-seed, and the fact that he didn't have any was brought up by people on forum's almost immediately. You do not need the lore itself to say something is questionable for it to be questionable, trying to use that as the standard for what you can find questionable is like asking people not to think for themselves. As I've already pointed out, the only source that explicitly states their gene-seed comes from the Emperor's genetic code is the Grey Knights claiming it does, and their only source for it is "because we say so". -- Triacom (talk) 17:10, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
Cawl made 3 new geneseed organs. And you are ignoring than even the original astartes geneseed wasn't designed by the Emperor alone. And yeah, a stock of geneseed could be made in that time. Geneseed organs can be quickly cloned, but it requires a high level of understanding of genetic engineering. An example being Arik Taranis cloning Proginoid Glands. The Emperor's Biotechnical Division would have no issue making a stock of new geneseed with the Emperor's genetic code. Yes you do need the lore if you want to claim a lore issue. Nothing questions the source of the Grey Knight's geneseed.TheNuclearSoldier (talk)
Cawl made new organs derived from existing gene-seed over the period of 10000 years, he did not create new gene-seed. I'm not ignoring how the original gene-seed wasn't made by the Emperor alone, in fact I even mentioned Larraman (though not by name) yet you missed that. Since you're so certain, please tell me how the Emperor's team could make new gene-seed derived from him in the span of 55 days (the span of Horus' final campaign) without his assistance or supervision, then clone it and stock Titan fully with it without being noticed coming and going from Terra, when it took the Emperor and crew years to make new gene-seed from scratch before. "The Emperor's Biotechnical Division would have no issue making a stock of new geneseed with the Emperor's genetic code." Do you have a source or is this another assumption? "Yes you do need the lore if you want to claim a lore issue." In that case I'd like you to point out to me where in the lore anyone has ever made brand new gene-seed without the Emperor's assistance. It's not stated in the Grey Knights Codex, it's not stated in the Emperor's Gift, it's not stated anywhere in fact, yet you're acting under the assumption that it's true. "Nothing questions the source of the Grey Knight's geneseed." Except for the timeline. If they suddenly introduced a new event that said the Emperor went to mars and had a tea party that lasted two months while Horus was in his final campaign, then you would not need some other piece of lore telling you this was suspicious to find it suspicious. -- Triacom (talk) 17:41, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
If you want to talk about assumptions, may I remind you that your entire argument is nothing but assumptions with absolutely nothing to back them up? You are assuming that the Emperor's physical presence is some kind of requirement to make geneseed. That it is impossible for his Biotechnical Division to make a stock of geneseed with his genetic code without him being the one to do it personally. Nowhere is this stated to have been a requirement. Yes it took Cawl a long time to make those new geneseed organs because he was making entirely new organs (well 2 new organs and 1 half-finished knockoff). As well as the knowledge of only 1 of the Biotechnical Divison who worked on 1 of the geneseed implants. The Grey Knights just have the same organs as any other Astartes, just with the Emperor's genecode. There is absolutely no reason the gene stock couldn't have been made and nothing contradicts that it was.TheNuclearSoldier (talk)
Let's go over my argument then: "The Emperor supervised and assisted with the creation of 20 variants of the gene-seed, which took years to create." Is this an assumption? No, we know that the Emperor was a part of a team of scientists and geneticists that was used to create them, and we know that it took years because of how long it took to get from the Thunder Warriors to the Adeptus Astartes. That is my argument, because that is what we know. Do we know that his team does not require his assistance to make new gene-seed? No we do not, that is an assumption, and that is your argument. Do we know that his team could make new gene-seed, a full stock of it in fact, in only 55 days and somehow sneak it past the traitor legions? No we do not, that would be another assumption and it's what you're arguing in favour of. Arguing against an assumption that they did make entirely new gene-seed without the Emperor's assistance is not the same as making an assumption, and if you look back at what I've said, especially on the Grey Knight's page, you'll find that I've said multiple times I'd agree with you if you could find any source in which it states something like this happened. "Yes it took Cawl a long time to make those new geneseed organs because he was making entirely new organs (well 2 new organs and 1 half-finished knockoff)." Making new organs derived from existing gene-seed is not the same as making new gene-seed because you're already working off existing templates and expanding upon what's already there. Making new gene-seed would require you to start from scratch without the benefit of taking existing gene-seed and finding ways to attach a few new organs to it to improve it. Also I think we can both agree making three new organs over 10000 years (if we can even call one of those an organ) is a hell of a lot less than making 19 new organs over 55 days, although thinking on it, it was probably more closer to 50-54 days given the time it would take to stock titan, and how the 55 also includes the duel between Horus and the Emperor, and Titan was already gone by that point. "There is absolutely no reason the gene stock couldn't have been made and nothing contradicts that it." You can keep typing it until your keyboard breaks, that won't make it true. Nothing in the lore says the Emperor's team can work and make new gene-seed without him, nothing in the lore even supports this (not even the Grey Knights Codex) and it's an assumption that they could, let alone did in under 55 days what the AdMech could not in 10000 years. -- Triacom (talk) 18:16, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Your assumption is that making the geneseed with the Emperor's genecode is impossible when nothing states that. We do not need to know exactly how the geneseed was made, only that nothing questions whose genecode it is. Every single piece of lore about it makes it clear the Grey Knights geneseed uses the Emperor's genecode. Until a piece of lore makes claim against it, saying it isn't isn't only out of universe fan theory and speculation, it out right contradicts the actual lore. Here is what we know: "The Grey Knight's geneseed uses the Emperor's genecode. This has been stated and reinforced in every single codex Grey Knights and in pretty much all fluff novels the Grey Knights appear in.". No matter how much you don't want their geneseed to have the Emperor's genecode doesn't matter. You can speculate all you want but that's nothing more than fanon. The Grey Knights having geneseed from the Emperor is as well established as the Ultramarines having geneseed with Guilliman's genecode.TheNuclearSoldier (talk)

My argument is there's no precedent or evidence for that, my argument's not an assumption like yours is. "We do not need to know exactly how the geneseed was made, only that nothing questions whose genecode it is." Hang on a minute, then why are you trying to put the Fire Angels on the list of suspected Chapters? Let's go through the Chapters on here whose gene-seed isn't questioned by in-universe lore: Blood Ravens, Brotherhood of a Thousand, Silver Skulls, Red Scorpions, Hawk Lords, Death Eagles, Sons of the Phoenix, Storm Wardens, Executioners, Crimson Axes, Skull Bearers, Iron Champions, Iron Snakes, Castellans of the Rift, Mortifactors. None of these has their gene-seed contested by in-universe lore, yet there's oddities there that has people questioning where they are from regardless. "Every single piece of lore about it makes it clear the Grey Knights geneseed uses the Emperor's genecode." Except for the timeline. "Until a piece of lore makes claim against it-" Hold up, because that's not how burden of proof works. If you want to claim that something is a fact you have to prove it. You cannot say "This is the case until something else says it isn't." This is why your assumption that the Emperor's team of scientists and geneticists was A) still at hand, and B) able to work without him, are both assumptions that you've yet to prove. Let's also not forget the only thing telling us that the Grey Knights use gene-seed derived from the Emperor's gene-code are the Grey Knights. What's their history as to how this was made despite the timeframe and the Emperor's inability to assist his team, if they were even still at hand which we don't know for sure that they were? We don't know, the Grey Knights just tell us this is the case. Here's what we know: The Grey Knights history about their gene-seed is at odds with the timeline. You can speculate how this gene-seed could've been made without the Emperor's assistance in under 55 days all you want but that's nothing more than fanon. -- Triacom (talk) 18:46, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

The only thing the Grey Knights geneseed is at odds with is your fanonTheNuclearSoldier (talk)

Show me where there's any precedent for the Emperor's team to make new gene-seed without him. -- Triacom (talk) 18:55, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
After you show me anywhere the Grey Knight's geneseed is reference as not being made from the Emperor's genecode. And no, your fan theory isn't a credible source.TheNuclearSoldier (talk)
You're asking me to prove a negative, and I'm not the one making a claim, I'm simply asking for proof of your claim. -- Triacom (talk) 19:01, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
That's all you keep asking me to do. And yes, you are making the claim because there is no inuniverse question as to their heritage. The only question is your fan theory that outright goes against the lore.TheNuclearSoldier (talk)
I'm asking you to do it because you keep claiming that's what happened. Saying "prove it" is not assuming what happened is different, it's asking you to prove that's what happened. Fanon is not being doubtful of fan theories, it's creating those theories, which is what you've been doing. -- Triacom (talk) 19:08, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
Let's try something else, if I've been making claims about the Grey Knights lineage, then please tell me what they are, and quote me where I've said them. -- Triacom (talk) 19:09, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
I'm not going to copy and paste essentially everything you have said in three threads on two pages. You have asserted that the Grey Knights geneseed is not made from the Emperor's genecode, despite every piece of Grey Knights lore unambiguously states that it is. You base this on your belief that it is impossible. While such speculation is okay in on the "suspect" chapters section (kind of the point of the section), it's not on the Grey Knight's page.TheNuclearSoldier (talk)
I've stated the lore is inconsistent, and that we cannot say it is a fact while that inconsistency is there. If a later piece of lore comes out that fills in the blanks and says something like "the Emperor's team worked to make a new form of gene-seed based on his gene-code then I'd be happy with it. Until that time we cannot assume it to be the case because there's nothing in the lore that supports such a notion. -- Triacom (talk) 19:30, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

It's only inconsistent with your fan theory. There is no issue with the lore of the Grey Knights geneseed TheNuclearSoldier (talk)

Please tell me how your theory, that the Emperor was not required to make the gene-seed is not a fan theory. -- Triacom (talk) 20:16, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
Sources like "Belisarius Cawl: the Great Work" have development of the geneseed being made without him so that he could pursue his other projects. Cawl's own later developments on geneseed after the Horus Heresy. The Outcast Dead novel has Arik Taranis being able to recreate geneseed in a underworld lab. The First Heretic shows the geneseed being developed without the Emperor there. There is also the "Chimeric" geneseed developed in the Cursed Founding. The Fabius Bile novel series shows he made his own modifications and developments to the geneseed, even making a partial geneseed implant process compatible with female physiology.TheNuclearSoldier (talk)
None of those are the creation of unique gene-seed. Arik Taranis had progenoid glands so it's no surprise he was able to make more, claiming he made new gene-seed is like claiming you made a new type of flower by planting a seed. Chimeric gene-seed is also not unique gene-seed since it's still derived from existing gene-seed. Modifying gene-seed is not creating new gene-seed from scratch by working from the Emperor's genetic template and skipping the step where you make a Primarchs first. -- Triacom (talk) 20:55, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
The Grey Knights don't have new geneseed either. They have the same geneseed organs as any other Astartes. Theirs just was made with the Emperor's genecode, instead of derived from his sons. Also, yes in Belisarius Cawl: The Great Work it goes go over the creation of new geneseed. Specifically the design and development of the black carapace. It was made by Amar Astarte and Ezekiel Sedayne. The Emperor had no involvement in it's development.TheNuclearSoldier (talk)
Gene-seed made from the Emperor is new gene-seed. I'll break it down for you: Imperial Fists use Rogal Dorn's gene-seed. How that was made is the Emperor created Rogal Dorn, and from him he took the necessary genetic material made to craft the Imperial Fists variant of gene-seed. Ultramarines use Roboutte Guilliman's gene-seed. How that was made is the Emperor created Roboutte Guilliman, and from him he took the genetic material necessary to make their variant of gene-seed. This is especially important in cases like the Emperor's Children, where for whatever reason the data the Emperor had on Fulgrim was flawed, and so the Emperor's Children were dying out until their Primarch was found and they could take from him the proper gene-seed needed to rebuild the Legion. To create unique gene-seed you would not be able to modify existing gene-seed and call it a day, you'd need to start over completely and build up from the bottom using the genetic material from the Emperor. Also as I said before, an organ is not a gene-seed, it is 1/19th of a whole, and that's without being specifically coded to an existing Primarch. -- Triacom (talk) 21:20, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
You are saying the team who developed and produced the first 20 lines of geneseed could not do it a 21st time.TheNuclearSoldier (talk) 21:27, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
Every other time they were working off an existing gene-seed, albeit one not adapted for humans yet. If they were to try to make new gene-seed from the Emperor then they'd need to figure out a way to make it work without the aid of the best scientist and geneticist among them, the one who created the templates they were all working off of originally (which is why I said they'd be starting from scratch, Primarchs were made with the creation of the Space Marine Legions in mind and so they had something to go off of, the Emperor was not), and in a fraction of a fraction of the time they had before. -- Triacom (talk) 21:33, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
For the record, if you could provide precedent for anyone or any team making new gene-seed like this in under 55 days then I'd agree with you. I'm not saying that it's impossible for them to do it, I'm saying nothing supports your theory, those are very different. -- Triacom (talk) 21:39, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
I have already provided ample references to lore of the development of the Astartes geneseed and it's further modifications/developments each without the need for the Emperor's involvement. You keep moving the goalpost. There is no evidence whatso ever to support your belief while established lore contradicts it.TheNuclearSoldier (talk)
You've provided evidence for the development of existing gene-seed and its modification, you have not provided any evidence in favour of creating entirely new gene-seed. I've never moved the goalposts, from the start I've been saying there's no evidence supporting the theory that the Emperor is not needed to create new gene-seed. Please tell me which lore contradicts the belief that there's no precedent for the Emperor's team to create entirely new gene-seed without him. -- Triacom (talk) 21:52, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
Sure. Codex Grey Knights 5e/7e/8e, the Emperor's gift, etc. All make it clear that the geneseed they use is made from the Emperor's own genetic code.TheNuclearSoldier (talk) 21:55, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Do any of those sources say it was developed without the aid of the Emperor? No, they do not. Once again, which lore contradicts the belief that there's no precedent for the Emperor's team to create entirely new gene-seed without him? -- Triacom (talk) 21:59, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

They say the Grey Knights use geneseed made from the Emperor's genecode. In no uncertain terms. And as we know the Emperor was on the golden throne, so couldn't have made it himself. So let's review: we have direct references that the Grey Knights' geneseed uses the Emperor's genecode in every single iota of lore that involves the topic. We have direct depictions of geneseed developments and modifications without the Emperor's involvement including the original Astartes project. And we have absolutely nothing that contradicts or questions the Grey Knights geneline (not even a character raising an eyebrow).TheNuclearSoldier (talk)
This right here: "They say the Grey Knights use geneseed made from the Emperor's genecode. In no uncertain terms. And as we know the Emperor was on the golden throne, so couldn't have made it himself." Is exactly why it's suspicious. Any theory for how they could have gotten the gene-seed then or if it really is derived from the Emperor is nothing but a fan theory right now. "We have direct depictions of geneseed developments and modifications without the Emperor's involvement including the original Astartes project." But we have no depictions of new gene-seed being made without a Primarch to work off of and without the involvement of the Emperor. As for questioning the Grey Knights gene-seed, nothing in universe questions the gene-seed of the Fire Angels, yet you're still suspicious of it. -- Triacom (talk) 22:23, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
For the record, this paragraph: "They say the Grey Knights use geneseed made from the Emperor's genecode. In no uncertain terms. And as we know the Emperor was on the golden throne, so couldn't have made it himself." Or something similar to it would be a great addition to the Grey Knights page, along with the theory that the Emperor's team might have been able to engineer it despite such an undertaking being unprecedented let alone being done in under 55 days. We could also include the possibility that they only believe it's derived from the Emperor since the Grey Knights are the only source for its origin, and they don't seem to know how it was made (not to mention the timeframe that it would have to be made in). -- Triacom (talk) 22:27, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Where the other Space Marine Chapters were built upon existing stock, the Grey Knights were born of a new gene-seed, one without the flaws of those that had gone before, and which carried the gift of the Emperor’s own flesh and soul. So was each Grey Knight a doughty warrior, his strength and endurance increased well beyond human limitations by the Emperor’s gift and then honed further by rigorous training. - Codex: Grey Knights (5e), pg7 "The Return"

The Grey Knights’ strength of spirit and purity of body were the two most important gifts the Emperor passed on to the Chapter through his genetic legacy. While the other Space Marine Chapters would be autonomous, the Grey Knights were fully embedded in the Inquisition, and would serve as the chamber militant of that most secret of societies....Even the Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes are too far removed from their creator to embody such purity, their genetic integrity faded by hundreds of generations and thousands of years, given to varying degrees of imperfection. Not so the Grey Knights, whose unblemished line reaches back to their maker in an unbroken chain. - Codex: Grey Knights (8e), "In the Emperor's Image" TheNuclearSoldier (talk)

Where in those does it say the Emperor's team made the gene-seed without him? In fact, it says the opposite: Not so the Grey Knights, whose unblemished line reaches back to their MAKER-. The Grey Knights seem to be under the impression the Emperor made their gene-seed personally (or they wouldn't call him their maker) when we both know he couldn't, but that's fine, we've already been over how the Codices are not infallible sources of lore. -- Triacom (talk) 22:44, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
The Emperor is the one who ordered their creation as well as their genetic template. Thus he is their "maker".TheNuclearSoldier (talk) 22:53, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
Now that's one hell of a mental leap. You really think they wouldn't credit anybody who made them, and instead would say "that guy's our maker"? If you do, then that still means you have no evidence the Emperor's team was capable of making new gene-seed without him, let alone in under 55 days. -- Triacom (talk) 22:59, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

It's in the books. Grey Knights use geneseed from the Emperor's genecode. If you don't beleive it, that's too damn bad. You are still try to force your fan theory.TheNuclearSoldier (talk)

It's in the books. Grey Knights believe the Emperor is their maker. If you don't beleive it, that's too damn bad. You are still try to force your fan theory. I can do that too, the book you're using as a source undermines your own argument. That in mind, where in any lore does it say the Emperor's team made the unique gene-seed without him? -- Triacom (talk) 02:27, 30 January 2020 (UTC)