Talk:Tyrion

From 1d4chan

Badass Warrior or Mary Sue?[edit]

After having too much time on my hands from a sick day, I heard an End Time leak about Tyrion, a character I have long considered a Mary Sue. While he is a badass warrior, he is also an egregious example of a Mary Sue. Wanting to put the matter to rest, I took the online 'Universal Mary Sue Limitus Test' using Tyrion. He scored 60, meaning "Your character is almost certainly a Mary Sue, and a bad one at that". The worst scores, that mean a character is most likely a Mary Sue, are 50+.

Elaborated on below are the points from that test that Tyrion scored (copy and pasted from the site and in bold). Since I have not played any role in creating or writing for Tyrion, I used the Warhammer Fantasy armybooks and novels as reference (which I am familiar with as a Warhammer player of several years). So Tyrion being a Mary Sue is starting to look like a proven fact rather than a case "haters gonna hate".


SPOILERS AHEAD

  • Is your character described, illustrated, and/or depicted as looking especially beautiful, handsome, or cute with little to no effort? Yes. He is regularly described as such, from the High Elf armybook.
  • Does anyone become distracted or enraptured by your character's looks? Yes. Many women (including his own cousin) in 'Blood of Aenarion', Teclis' consorts in Giantslayer and Alarielle to name a few.
  • Does anyone fight or squabble over your character because of xir looks? Yes. Morathi, who is also listed below.
  • Does anyone tell your character how cute/beautiful/handsome xe is, or refer to your character as such when talking about or to your character? Yes. Tyrion's cousin who eventually has sex wit him.
  • Even characters who don't especially like your character, or consider your character a rival or enemy? Arguably Morathi, at first, because she eventually sees him as Aenarion reborn and falls in love with him.
  • Does your character have a great body/physique, which you describe, show, and/or illustrate in detail? Yes. The Warhammer novels 'Sons of Ellyrion' have a scene where two women are preparing Tyrion for war which involved oiling him up while he was nude, and the writing went into uncomfortable but not smutty levels of detail.
  • Does your character become a genetically, scientifically, cybernetically, or magically altered/enhanced being, possibly with new powers? Becoming the Incarnate of Light in 'End Times, Archaon'.
  • If your character is openly defiant or disrespectful toward authority figures, is your character always justified and in the right? Yes. They're either being pompous or procrastinating about the future of their nation when he chews them out.
  • Is your character easily provoked to violence - but only gets into fights with characters who truly deserve the beating they get? Arguably, as he did before Khaine started having a hold on him, but after that he killed many who did not deserve to die.
  • Does anyone quickly and readily bestow gifts, goodies, and luxuries upon your character that aren't mandated by local norms of etiquette, or if they are mandated by norms of etiquette, are much nicer or more extravagant than considered necessary? Yes. Alarielle gave Tyrion the Heart of Avelorn, a gem that can bring him back from the dead and is a symbol of their enduring love, in addition to Aenarion's armor and Sunfang (on their own they're not problematic but it adds up).
  • Is your character some sort of genius or prodigy, and/or is unusually accomplished for xir age, time period, place, occupation, and/or social status? In something that is extremely desirable and/or useful in the story's universe? Yes. He is a prodigy in anything related to waging war, which is useful for the High Elves often protect the world and are in a near constant war against the Dark Elves prior to the End Times.
  • Does your character pick up new skills and/or gain ranks unusually fast during the course of the story? Yes, see the point above and below.
  • To the point where xe learns skills that usually take years to master in a matter of months or less? Yes. As a rookie of a few months practice he matches an old, seasoned veteran with a blade.
  • Is your character simply the best or among the best among xir peer group? Is xe famous/renowned for any of these? Yes, as Ulthuan's most skilled general along with Eltharion, but Tyrion's more famous.
  • Does your character modestly dismiss or deflect well-earned compliments? Yes, before the End Times.
  • Does your character possess a one-of-a-kind trinket or piece of jewelry that is magical and/or has some special significance? Yes. The Heart of Avelorn, which shields him from magic and resurrects him.
  • Is your character nobility, royalty, or of an equivalent high status (eg, governor, president, chieftain)? Yes. He's descended from Aenarion and is second only to the Phoenix King in High Elf military matters.
  • Is your character some kind of 'chosen one' and/or a major part of a prophecy? Yes. In the End Times.
  • Concerning your character's friends and acquaintances... Is your character liked by nearly everyone xe meets? Yes. Prior to the End Times anyone who didn't like him in the story was portrayed negatively and/or an evil villain.
  • If your character wanted, could xe have sex with or date any or almost any of the characters xe finds attractive? Possibly. See the point about his looks above.
  • If your character finally settles on one, is it the most attractive one out of the bunch? Yes. He settles for the Everqueen Alarielle, often called the most beautiful woman in Ulthuan and said to be one of the most beautiful women in the world.
  • Has your character otherwise lost: A child? Yes. His daughter Aliathra who was sacrified to bring Nagash to (un)life.
  • Does a major villain have a personal fixation/obsession with your character? Something that has to do with your character's family or something your character is, rather than something your character has actually done? Yes. Morathi. The reason is he looks like, and is descended from, Aenarion.
  • Is your character ever spared by an otherwise-ruthless villain? Yes. Morathi.
  • Because the villain is attracted to your character? Yes.
  • And/or does an otherwise-selfish villain protect or grant asylum to your character? Yes. Morathi again. She saved Tyrion from being killed by Urian Poisonblade in the battle for Funival Plain.
  • Do any of these happen despite the fact that your character has already done massive damage to the villain, the villain's troops, and/or the villain's property, or has done anything to annoy the villain in general? Yes. Tyrion had killed many of Morathi's soldiers and allies.
  • Does your character play a major and pivotal role in saving a world, race, or group to which xe did not belong to at the beginning of the story? Yes. He leads the armies of the High Elves, except Caledor, and becomes the Incarnate of Light in the End Times.

In closing, Tyrion is more of a Mary Sue than James Bond, and one safari-in-the-Warp away from Kaldor Draigo, but he is not the worst Mary Sue (especially since there are fictional characters such as Alice and Bella). I'm not saying it's wrong to like him, I'm pointing out that he is a Mary Sue, or more accurately a Canon Sue, so you know what you're in for.

  • I still like him. - Ben (talk) 11:49, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Now I don't have a problem with people calling Tyrion a Mary Sue (and I agree he generally is) but you've gotten a few points wrong here, firstly the site says "Answer all questions for which the answer is 'yes' or 'technically yes' unless the item mentioned is so commonplace in the universe you are writing for that it doesn't really make your character remarkable or unusual."

  • So him being an elf isn't unusual, and even if you consider it being unusual every race has abilities above humans so that alone isn't unusual either.
  • Morathi doesn't squabble over him because of how he looks, she fights for him because she thinks he's the reincarnation of her dead husband.
  • She also doesn't really care for him at all until she starts seeing him as her dead husband.
  • He's openly defiant of authority figures, but in The End Times he was entirely in the wrong and completely fucked things up by taking control.
  • Pretty much the entirety of Khaine once the daemons are gone is him getting into fights he could have avoided and killing people that shouldn't have died.
  • Alarielle does give him gifts, but she doesn't do it quickly or readily, mostly it was a one time thing so he wouldn't get killed in close combat.
  • You seem to have left off one bit on the nobility question: "Ignore this if is because the story focuses on royal/noble or equivalent types." The only important characters (and in some cases the only characters who actually have character) with very few exceptions in Warhammer elf stories are royal/noble or equivalent types.
  • The one-of-a-kind trinket applies here as nearly every magical item is a one-of-a-kind trinket (the Rulebook says so) and the world is completely loaded with them.
  • Actually Tyrion played more of a role in destroying the world than saving it, even if he does do something amazing as the Incarnate of Light he's still done far more harm than good.

With all this in mind (and one or two you forgot) I got a score of 40, which means "Fanfiction & MMO/RPG/Original Fiction: Extremely high chance your character is a Mary Sue. VERY risky range." -- Triacom (talk) 15:43 16 February 2015 (UTC)

  • Thank you. I'm the one who started this topic and took the test for Tyrion. You are right about him being an elf is not unusual in and of itself, as there are several races with abilities above humans. However there are two points of contention.
    • The one-of-a-kind-trinket point still counts against him. Even though magical items are common in this world, items that can resurrect the wearer such as the Heart of Avelorn are very rare even by Warhammer standards. The only other I know of is the Carstein Ring, but that is an item made for and worn by undead wearers, not one that resurrects them to proper life. Even the Lizardmen (with the Slaan, greatest magic users in the world) and Chaos (a faction with reality-warping powers galore) don't have trinkets like that.
    • I did state that the whole 'being easily provoked to violence but only fighting those who deserve it' lasted until Khaine got ahold of him, meaning the End Times:Khaine after the daemons were gone; my wording wasn't clear.

Also, did you use any De-suifiers? If so, which ones? -- Flufflion (talk) 07:00 17 February 2015 (UTC)

I didn't use any de-suiffiers (that I'm aware of), and the extra options I picked probably boosted the score up further as they were things like them being extremely renowned in the local community and liked by everybody that knew them personally (there were one or two like that on the site that weren't on your list). I believe the heart of avelorn still doesn't count because it's not asking how special something is or how rare/powerful it is, it's just asking if he got some kind of rare/magical one of a kind item, which every item in the Warhammer world is. We also do have to include Khaine as that's a part of the story he's involved in, if you don't want to include Khaine then you must also remove the bit about him becoming the Incarnate of Light as you cannot cherry pick points you want from some books and ignore others in the same series. Even if I did include the Heart of Avelorn I highly doubt that would boost the score the 10 points it needs to get past the range I got. -- Triacom (talk) 8:50, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

  • You're right. I'll keep the Khaine and the Incarnate of Light. While I understand what you're saying about the Heart of Avelorn, I still view it as even though every item is one-of-a-kind, some can have the same properties. For example, there are several strength boosting magical melee weapons in Warhammer ranging from a Sword of Might to Grimgor's axe Gitsnik but, as mentioned before, items that resurrect their wearer are non-existent outside of the Heart of Avelorn; it's ability is one-of-a-kind. Tyrion's score is still in the range you said though, and I think we can both agree that he is one.
    • He has now become even more sueish at the moment; In the Age of Sigmar expansion he has now reach godhood and captured and imprisoned Slaanesh! That would put him well over the range now.
      • If becoming a God in AoS counts then Sigmar, Alarielle, Nagash and such have it too. Besides we don't actually know what's happened to Tyrion yet in AoS so this seems premature. We've got confirmed that Sigmar and Alarielle are still kicking around in the times of the game but Tyrion's last mention occurs in the Mythic Age which, by their new times system, is far in the past of the AoS setting. Let us wait and see what's actually happened to him before we start screaming Mary Sue in a setting full of characters defined by 'best warrior of their people, greatest commander of their people and prodigy this at magic or warfare'. Most every special character is a noble or noble-equivalent of their culture. Many of them are prodigies of warfare and magic. Many others are also naturally brilliant leaders. Also, the Slaanesh thing, again this is too premature. We know he 'tried' too but, keep in mind, this attempt is lumped in with the other things which caused the collapse of Sigmar's Golden Age. Additionally Tyrion hasn't been mentioned yet and the followers of Slaanesh canonically are stated to believe Malerion (the very likely Malekith character ruling in the Ulgulands) is to blame. Let's wait to see what happens in AoS before running crazy with speculation.

Then, to the above test, there are a few problems which haven't been brought up yet. Beyond what was brought up;

  • Tyrion is, majorly, not fulfilling the requirements of being right when he opposes Authority Figures and quickly fights people in End Times
  • Morathi is dubious as she only cares about Tyrion when thinking he 'is' Aenarion
  • That most special characters are noble or noble-equivalent
  • That the Heart of Averlorn is just a magical artifact in a setting common with them
  • That most special characters in Warhammer have a 'best' of their field thing going on (just think of Korhil who as a youth kills the meanest White Lion (the monster now)

there are additional things this test lacks for context.

  • One is the fact that Tyrion has explicitly stated flaws to counter-balance his mary-sue traits; he's canonically an idiot at anything beyond commanding armies and fighting personally and he's got a temper problem which has been increased in each addition of the story.
  • Also certain questions, if we keep End Times in mind, just aren't accurate here. Tyrion doesn't 'settle' on the most beautiful of the bunch. Since End Times is kept in mind Tyrion ends the story single, technically Malekith is in a relationship with Alarielle, Tyrion's got no one. Same with the 'could have sex with anyone they find attractive' since Alarielle in End Times has no interest in sex with him whether he wants it or not. The two even have a private conversation through the night we are told in Archaon and the end result of that was just that everyone felt Alarielle looked really cold and bitter afterwards so clearly they two aren't doing it any time soon.
  • Finally a small error due to continuity changes. The part about everyone liking Tyrion...I can understand where that comes from since you probably read the Tyrion & Teclis Trilogy and the older High Elf Army Books described him as highly charismatic but you seem to have missed that for the last 3-2 editions they changed his fluff, focusing on his difficult to get along with mood, his foul temper and canonically stating that beyond Finubar, Teclis and Alarielle few people could get along with him. Its a change, so it has the difficulty of deciding what carries more weight, but I'd err on the side of the more recent stuff since that's what End Times runs with as its characterization of him. Tyrion is, in the newer fluff, simply stated to not get along with almost anyone but Teclis and Alarielle and many nobility are said not to like him so much as they just fear him.

In summation though, I should make clear, I'm not trying to argue his character doesn't have obvious, glaring problems in terms of being a sue. I simply feel some more context is required, particularly to note that within his setting the 'Epic' level characters often are just all around 'best' guys at stuff and so he bears this sin with a lot of characters (less so with End Times which, I guess, will make some people happier). The best example I think is just run Alarielle through this. She's pretty much a gender-inverse Tyrion except that, in End Times, she is in the right, becomes Queen, doesn't go evil and still has all the same traits as Tyrion. Considered 'the' sexiest woman. Enormous power given to her by both Lileath and Teclis, the loss of a child and a husband and possession of many special artifacts. That and the AoS speculation is really painful, considering what Sigmar's become in it to harp on about Tyrion seems trivial when Sigmar's explicitly now described as noblest, smartest and greatest of the Order forces, so lets wait and see till we know Tyrion's actual state in AoS before we start simply declaring what we want. (In advance apologies for any technical or protocol based errors I might have made, I am new here, and I read the help and rules section but I cannot rule out that I might have missed something or made an error regardless) --HiddenAway 14:50, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

  • This is an excellent response @HiddenAway, and you make a good point about Alarielle (I won't start a debate about her but I will look into it for my own curiosity. In addition, Nagash could also be considered a villain sue, but that's just my ponderings and not starting accusations). I was the one who decided to put Tyrion to the test to determine whether he really was a Mary Sue and started this discussion. I have recently thought I was overzealous with this article, especially in light of the fact that Tyrion is part of the 'epic' level characters. Still, Tyrion does display some Mary Sue traits, especially in the older lore and somewhat in the newer lore. I have read the older and newer High Elf books, the Tyrion & Teclis trilogy along with their cameos in the Sons of Ellyrion books. I meant 'settle' sarcastically; it was because he ended up with Alarielle, arguably the Warhammer world's sexiest woman. Yes, his temper had been growing and his social skills declining but until the End Times it caused no problems for him, and personal flaws that don't cause problems for the character that has them are a sign of a Mary Sue. I have explained my point about the Heart of Avelorn a few times. While magic items are common in the setting, my point hinges on the question "how common are magic items that resurrect the dead in this setting?" The answer is they are rare, even by magic item standards. I only know of two in the entire history of the setting; the Heart of Avelorn and the Carstein Ring (the latter involves the undead). On a side note, it is good to see a well thought-out and intelligent discussion/contributor --Flufflion 14:50, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
    • I do have one question then if that's what really bugs you, how many banners in the game are there that increase the movement of the people with the banner? How many banners are there that scare flying monsters? How many swords make it easier to hit their target? The fact that there's two items that do the same thing (I could swear there's more as well) actually make it more common than many "common" magical items, not to mention one of the Lores of Magic (surprise, it's one Alarielle specializes in) allows you to bring the dead back to life, and fusing a spell from a lore into an object isn't really that surprising. -- Triacom (talk) 15:05, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
      • Thank you for the compliment. To be clear Tyrion certainly does have Mary Sue qualities to him, although if one counts End Times as canon then of the 'major' Good Guy characters he is actually by far the least Mary Sue-like. Right off the bat I would like to say one thing; for the purpose of this conversation I'm only going to consider his Warhammer incarnation (including End Times Fluff) since I know little of AoS and kind of see the reinterpretation of the old characters there as sufficiently different to not speak of in the same breadth. Just my proviso, obviously no-one else need do the same. Back to the main point. So I agree he has qualities making him seem like a Mary Sue but, as I said and you seem to also be saying, this is mitigated by the fact that most of the other 'major' Good Guys have these qualities (Sigmar and such) since they are unambiguously good. Again since we are counting End Times Tyrion actually doesn't even qualify for this since his temper, inability to see the bigger picture and refusal to choose the greater good over his love for his daughter all damn him and many of his species to a horrible fate for which no justification or attempt to excuse his actions is ever made. He's more screwed up then any other 'Good Guy'. My point would be that, in the Warhammer setting, the barometer for what makes you a Mary Sue is lower and, using the setting's own barometer, Tyrion is far from the most egregious offender.

Then the next point; I get that you used 'settle' sarcastically but the point is still incorrect. To my knowledge by the end of End Times Alarielle and Tyrion are both no longer in a relationship with each other but, in addition, doesn't Alarielle get into a relationship with Malekith and no longer have any affection for Tyrion? My point is to say that the two questions; Does the character end up with the hottest woman and could he have sex with the hottest woman if he wanted too, would have to be answered no since Alarielle both no longer is in a relationship with him by the end or having sex with him. To my knowledge, I'll admit I'm a little sketchy on these parts since the writing was sparse on the two, so I might have missed something. Either way the closest Tyrion has, to my knowledge, to a romantic pairing in End Times is when Eldyra (in a continuity snarl) and him bond before her mercy-kills her at her request.

As for the part about the social skills and such, well, as you say in End Times they majorly bite him in the ass and such do have very big negative consequences for him.

As for the Heart of Averlorn, though I do differ with you, I don't think its a crucial point since whether Tyrion does or does not possess a rare artifact doesn't really have a big bearing here I think.

Anyway that's just my two cents, cheers. HiddenAway (talk) 15:13, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

  • Hello everyone, Flufflion here. After awhile I revisited this article just out of curiousity and looking back on my previous results for the Mary Sue test got me thinking. In light of the changes and retcons that occurred in the End Times, I thought it would be fair to re-test Tyrion, going from his lore at the beginning of his birth to the conclusion of the End Times (due to the vague and undeveloped lore, I will not go into Age of Sigmar's lore on Tyrion; the End Times may have changed him and the fact that Tyrion made it to Age of Sigmar could be another piece of Mary Sueness for him).

Here are the results of the re-test.

SPOILERS AHEAD

  • Is your character described, illustrated, and/or depicted as looking especially beautiful, handsome, or cute with little to no effort? Yes. He is regularly described as such, from the High Elf armybook.
  • Does anyone become distracted or enraptured by your character's looks? Yes. Many women (including his own cousin) in 'Blood of Aenarion', Teclis' consorts in Giantslayer and Alarielle to name a few.
  • Is anyone (including you) jealous of your character's good looks? In "Giantslayer" and "Blood of Aenarion" Teclis occasionally thinks to himself that he wished he had Tyrion’s looks.
  • Does anyone tell your character how cute/beautiful/handsome xe is, or refer to your character as such when talking about or to your character? Yes. Tyrion's cousin does so, during a nighttime visit to his room where she eventually has sex with him.
  • Does your character have a great body/physique, which you describe, show, and/or illustrate in detail? Yes. The Warhammer novels 'Sons of Ellyrion' have a scene where two women are preparing Tyrion for war which involved oiling him up while he was nude, and the writing went into uncomfortable but not smutty levels of detail.
  • Does your character become a genetically, scientifically, cybernetically, or magically altered/enhanced being, possibly with new powers? Becoming the Incarnate of Light in 'End Times, Archaon'.
  • If your character is openly defiant or disrespectful toward authority figures, is your character always justified and in the right? Yes. They're either being pompous or procrastinating about the future of their nation when he chews them out.
  • Is your character mainly driven by completely-justified revenge? During the third End Times book, Tyrion is driven to avenge his daughter’s death, the betrayal of his brother and Alarielle marrying Malekith. The story seems to go out of its way to justify his actions, with anything not covered by the above being attributed to Morathi's influence.
  • How many animal companions does your character keep? (Ordinary, non-magical pets like cats and dogs - or any pet considered ordinary within the canon, such as non-legendary Pokemon in a Pokemon story or an owl in Harry Potter do not count.) His steed Malandhir; the last living descendant of the world’s first and mightiest horse.
  • Is your character some sort of genius or prodigy, and/or is unusually accomplished for xir age, time period, place, occupation, and/or social status? In something that is extremely desirable and/or useful in the story's universe? Yes. He is a prodigy in anything related to waging war, which is useful for the High Elves often protect the world and are in a near constant war against the Dark Elves and comes in VERY handy during the End Times.
  • Does your character pick up new skills and/or gain ranks unusually fast during the course of the story? Yes, see the point above and below.
  • To the point where xe learns skills that usually take years to master in a matter of months or less? Yes. As a rookie of a few months practice he matches an old, seasoned veteran with a blade and learns in months techniques that elves usually take years to learn.
  • Is your character simply the best or among the best among xir peer group? Is xe famous/renowned for any of these? Yes, he is Ulthuan's most skilled warrior and general; though he shares the latter with Eltharion, Tyrion's more famous. It's to the point where he's even a legend among non-elves (the Greenskins call him Orcbane and the human Chaos followers who raid Ulthuan call him Man-killer).
  • Are other characters extremely impressed or astonished at your character's skills and/or virtues? (Does not count if they are easily impressed due to their own inexperience.) His bladework impresses the aforementioned veteran and several others like him.
  • b. Do they impress even the most cynical, jaded, exacting, and/or experienced? Eltharion is cynical, jaded, experienced and even dour, but he is impressed by Tyrion. Then Tyrion was retconned into one of the few elves Eltharion is friendly towards.
  • Does your character modestly dismiss or deflect well-earned compliments? Yes, right to the end.
  • Does or is your character have consistently horrible people skills, yet holds a job that requires interaction with people? Following the retcons Tyrion lacks social graces but it doesn't cause problems from him until it alienates Imrik, and even then that fuck-up gets swept under the rug.
  • Is your character some kind of 'chosen one' and/or a major part of a prophecy? Yes. In the End Times he is part of Lileath's plan to free the elves from the curse of Khaine and a candidate for becoming an Incarnate despite his lack of magical ability.
  • Is your character at the center of some grand cosmic design? Yes, he was a part of Lileath’s anti-Chaos plan to remove Khaine’s influence and his tryst with the Everqueen played into Teclis interfering with Nagash’s resurrection which also plays into the creation of Lileath's haven.
  • Is your character extremely popular or positively renowned where xe comes from or frequents? He is a legendary hero, considered to be their greatest king reborn and there are even calls that he should be the current king.
  • Concerning your character's friends and acquaintances... Is your character liked by nearly everyone xe meets? Yes. Prior to the End Times anyone who didn't like him in the story was portrayed negatively and/or an evil villain.
  • Concerning your character's friends and acquaintances, do characters who criticize or don't like your character from the start like xir by the end, or at least have a grudging respect? Yes, Malekith respects Tyrion’s abilities, despite criticizing him.
  • If your character wanted, could xe have sex with or date any or almost any of the characters xe finds attractive? Possibly. See the point about his looks above.
  • Could your character even have sex with someone who is normally explicitly chaste, happily committed to a monogamous relationship with someone else, or isn't keen on the idea of casual sex? He has sex with Alarielle while she’s married to Finubar and he has sex with his cousin; a form of incest.
  • Is he the parent of an illegitimate child in a society where this is stigmatized? Yes, he cuckolded the king and conceived Aliathra.
  • Has your character otherwise lost: A child? Yes. His daughter Aliathra who was sacrified to bring Nagash to (un)life.
  • Has your character otherwise lost: A close friend? Eltharion, Eldyra’s father, Eldyra and his brother Teclis.
  • Does a major villain have a personal fixation/obsession with your character? Something that has to do with your character's family or something your character is, rather than something your character has actually done? Yes. Morathi. The reason is he looks like, and is descended from, Aenarion.
  • Is your character ever spared by an otherwise-ruthless villain? Morathi spare him despite being a villain who is ruthless, vindictive and spiteful. Though Morathi can be pragmatic, her sparing Tyion wasn’t done out of pragmatism and even has a negative impact on her plans in the long run when he falls under Khaine’s influence, exacerbates the elven civil war and stops Morathi from consorting with daemons (though the latter is a good thing as it is disruptive to Morathi’s plans).
  • Because the villain is attracted to your character? Yes.
  • And/or does an otherwise-selfish villain protect or grant asylum to your character? Yes. Morathi again. She saved Tyrion from being killed by Urian Poisonblade in the battle for Funival Plain.
  • Do any of these happen despite the fact that your character has already done massive damage to the villain, the villain's troops, and/or the villain's property, or has done anything to annoy the villain in general? Tyrion has killed many of Morathi’s minions, nearly killed her son the Witch King twice, thwarted some of her plans and beat her when she tried to use daemons to win a battle.
  • Is your character resurrected/revived/brought back? Yes. Tyrion is resurrected from death in time to single-handedly save the world from Bea'lakor's attempt to destroy it via corrupting the Oak of Ages; Tyrion is also the only non-undead character to be resurrected in the story (those healed by Alarielle throughout the End Times are stated to be dying, not dead).
  • Does your character play a major and pivotal role in saving a world, race, or group to which xe did not belong to at the beginning of the story? Yes, he saves the entire world when he stops Bea'lakor from corrupting the Oak of Ages, which would have destroyed the fabric of reality.

Even factoring in the de-Suifiers and removing the debatable points (such as whether having the Heart of Avelorn made him more of a Mary Sue), testing him going by his newest lore as of the complete End Times series actually increased his score to 45 (up from the previous revised score of 40 given by a fellow smar/tg/entleman on this site; Tyrion still surpasses James Bond). Again, while he's not the worst in fiction, or even the game, while one can still like him, his Mary Suedom is confirmed in this case. Flufflion (talk) 11:00 10 February 2016 (UTC)