Talk:Volkite Weaponry
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Perhaps, as a filthy sympathizer for the heretical (Thanks to A.D.B.'s Night Lords trilogy), I wonder if perhaps it would be unreasonable to see the next Codex: CSM include Volkite Weapons as an answer to the Imperial Gravguns that loyalist Astartes are currently packing. Sadly, I don't know the actual rules Forge World uses in the 30k Legion rulebooks to understand their function on the table-top well enough, so I don't know how balanced such an addition could be. --70.190.166.102 18:45, 30 November 2015 (UTC)
- Thanks for all the input, everybody; I found this enlightening. Evilexecutive's comments have me wondering if perhaps being infested by daemons is actually a good thing, though, as it may encourage more widespread use of the Daemon Weapon rules in future CSM codex releases. Combined with how extremely rare they are, I don't think it would be entirely unreasonable to limit them to assorted units (i.e. Chosen), and enforcing a "tax" by requiring "Veterans of the Long War" on those units. Of course, as The Forgefather specified earlier, GW hates Chaos in 40k. For now, a heretic dreams.... --70.190.166.102 23:48, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
That's unlikely to happen, on two counts. First, CSM almost never get anything nice from GW. Second, from a fluff standpoint, Volkite weapons are very difficult to produce, a problem that would only be compounded by the limited resources of the Dark Mechanicus. Chaos forces don't have access to the fancy Crusade-Era toys anyways. During the Schism, what would become the Dark Mechanicus wrecked just about every rare STC they could find, preventing access to both them and the loyalists. There are some exceptions on the lower end, such as the Reaper Autocannon, but truly advanced things such as Volkite and Fellblades are all but lost to either side.--The Forgefather
- Well, to put it this way. The Volkite Weapons were never really manufactured anymore after they lost out the bid for being the mainline space marine weapon. All in all, there was enough made to fully equip only a single legion, which means that at the height of the Great Crusade, only 1,000,000 volkite weapons were produced, and only one forgeworld knew how to make them; Mars.. Evilexecutive (talk) 02:33, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, at the final closing moments of the Horus Heresy, the knowledge of how to make Volkite Weapons was lost forever, never to be relearned. Not even the tiniest fragments of knowledge how to make them even exist, and if they did, then by the events on mars they would be corrupted beyond all repair by Sentient SUPER VIRUSES Infused with DAEMONS. Ten Thousand Years Later, there is likely to be only 100 volkite weapons left in all of existence. Every last one of them is a treasured relic of the mechanicus, and lovingly repaired by people who would commit the genocide of entire sectors if it meant gaining the ability to make them once again. But they can't, because they just don't know how to anymore. Evilexecutive (talk) 02:33, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- To be fair, The Mechanicus actually might have learned how to re-engineer them (at some point they'd have to have taken their weapons apart and put them back together, or used replacement parts so they'd know what they'd need to make a new one), but without the correct STC's they wouldn't even try (especially since they almost never make new STC's). Remember that a lot of the STC's they get are damaged, they can repair them by looking at the finished version and fixing up the STC so that it would build it correctly, though even if they did get the STC that probably wouldn't happen since Volkite weaponry is so much harder to manufacture than other weapons. -- Triacom (talk) 11:19, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- Don't think so. Only the Dominus in 40k has access to volkite...and that's probably one of the relics of 30k, inherited. And if not even the mechanicum has access to them, I don't think anyone else has it. It's not like it was a Baal predator or something. After all, they didn't have enough volkite when the legions were still small, they didn't have enough volkite when Mars was at its best, why would they have volkite after 10k years of viruses, daemons and rust? Maybe as a relic gun, tops. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 13:23, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- Oh I didn't say that they had access to making more, or that anyone else has access to them, I'm saying that the Mechanicus who do have Volkite weaponry would have learned exactly how the weapons work through being made to do repairs in the 10k years since the Heresy. There wouldn't be a single part or piece in those weapons that wouldn't have been replaced, and the Mechanicus aren't stupid. There's also a good number of Magos who love to take apart everything rare they encounter to study how it works, at least one of those would have gotten a Volkite weapon, however I still stand by that they wouldn't try making a new STC based off of what they know, they'd try to find an existing one and then repairing it if it's damaged, and even if they found a perfect one they probably wouldn't focus on making them. -- Triacom (talk) 19:42, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- >>Would have learned exactly how the weapons work -> Then Plasma overheats wouldn't kill their Mechanicum operators.
- >>Take apart everything rare they encounter -> Implying that's not heresy -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 20:34, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- Knowing how something works does not mean you improve upon it (also see what Forgefather said), and you need to take something apart to make some repairs, so it's not heresy. By the way, plasma guns don't explode, and Wounds from Gets Hot weapons don't mean they kill their users, it means the users are taken off the field due to inability to fight, this could be as little as a burned arm. -- Triacom (talk) 22:48, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- Remember how Alessio Cortez loses an arm and calls it a flesh wound? Many failed wound saves against T4 are things that would easily kill regular humans. Now think of the wounds that would cause a T6 Magos to be taken off the field. Yeah, not all Gets hot are lethal, but those T3 are sure to wound up in the infirmary at the very least. And for the heresy thing, remember the "not heresy" stap for the Macharius (which was taken from an actual STC fragment) took 200 years to be aproved. As in, yeah, not actual heresy, but it's difficult to do something with it. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 23:10, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- Remember how regular plasma gun failure is due to overheating issues causing the heat to be directed at/in the area of its user and as such causes automatic wounds? It doesn't matter how tough something is, it'll hurt it the same, and by the same I mean that the heat/gas radiated is so extreme it can melt off a massive amount of skin and bone, and it's going to melt any bionics just as easily. It doesn't mean that because it causes wounds on Space Marines it causes worse wounds on regular humans. I'm not debating that their general users aren't put in the infirmary, which is why I said "the users are taken off the field due to inability to fight" since that covers a lot, from getting bad burns, to losing an arm, to dying, something happened that stopped them from being able to fight. I also completely agree that even though/if they know exactly how everything works in something (not just Volkite weapons), they're probably not going to do anything with it, and have always said as much. -- Triacom (talk) 07:57, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
- Hmm, you're right, Gets hot wounds regardless of operator toughness. I've always seen it as a "dangerous weapon malfunction", ranging from the usual "too got to grab" to the rare "it literally exploded" (Carcass shells explode, why not freaking plasma? Grimdark ;) ). With the latter case I mean even though the operator survives (as per removed as casualty) the gun doesn't. I'd post the link to that...but this isn't 4chan and I'd get banned 'cause of the blood. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 18:26, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
- To be fair, even though the gun being damaged probably does happen in a few cases, if the gun injures the operator enough that they need to be pulled off the field, there's no chance anyone else would try using it for fear that the Machine Spirit was pissed off. I'd think that even if the gun wasn't damaged in any way, they'd still try to return it to the Mechanicus for calming before firing it again (where they'd presumably fix it up before sending it back). Honestly even in the real world, if you see a gun severely injure a comrade, it's probably best anyway to send it back for maintenance before using it again. -- Triacom (talk) 18:49, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
- Hmm, you're right, Gets hot wounds regardless of operator toughness. I've always seen it as a "dangerous weapon malfunction", ranging from the usual "too got to grab" to the rare "it literally exploded" (Carcass shells explode, why not freaking plasma? Grimdark ;) ). With the latter case I mean even though the operator survives (as per removed as casualty) the gun doesn't. I'd post the link to that...but this isn't 4chan and I'd get banned 'cause of the blood. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 18:26, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
- Remember how regular plasma gun failure is due to overheating issues causing the heat to be directed at/in the area of its user and as such causes automatic wounds? It doesn't matter how tough something is, it'll hurt it the same, and by the same I mean that the heat/gas radiated is so extreme it can melt off a massive amount of skin and bone, and it's going to melt any bionics just as easily. It doesn't mean that because it causes wounds on Space Marines it causes worse wounds on regular humans. I'm not debating that their general users aren't put in the infirmary, which is why I said "the users are taken off the field due to inability to fight" since that covers a lot, from getting bad burns, to losing an arm, to dying, something happened that stopped them from being able to fight. I also completely agree that even though/if they know exactly how everything works in something (not just Volkite weapons), they're probably not going to do anything with it, and have always said as much. -- Triacom (talk) 07:57, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
- Remember how Alessio Cortez loses an arm and calls it a flesh wound? Many failed wound saves against T4 are things that would easily kill regular humans. Now think of the wounds that would cause a T6 Magos to be taken off the field. Yeah, not all Gets hot are lethal, but those T3 are sure to wound up in the infirmary at the very least. And for the heresy thing, remember the "not heresy" stap for the Macharius (which was taken from an actual STC fragment) took 200 years to be aproved. As in, yeah, not actual heresy, but it's difficult to do something with it. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 23:10, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- Knowing how something works does not mean you improve upon it (also see what Forgefather said), and you need to take something apart to make some repairs, so it's not heresy. By the way, plasma guns don't explode, and Wounds from Gets Hot weapons don't mean they kill their users, it means the users are taken off the field due to inability to fight, this could be as little as a burned arm. -- Triacom (talk) 22:48, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- Oh I didn't say that they had access to making more, or that anyone else has access to them, I'm saying that the Mechanicus who do have Volkite weaponry would have learned exactly how the weapons work through being made to do repairs in the 10k years since the Heresy. There wouldn't be a single part or piece in those weapons that wouldn't have been replaced, and the Mechanicus aren't stupid. There's also a good number of Magos who love to take apart everything rare they encounter to study how it works, at least one of those would have gotten a Volkite weapon, however I still stand by that they wouldn't try making a new STC based off of what they know, they'd try to find an existing one and then repairing it if it's damaged, and even if they found a perfect one they probably wouldn't focus on making them. -- Triacom (talk) 19:42, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- Don't think so. Only the Dominus in 40k has access to volkite...and that's probably one of the relics of 30k, inherited. And if not even the mechanicum has access to them, I don't think anyone else has it. It's not like it was a Baal predator or something. After all, they didn't have enough volkite when the legions were still small, they didn't have enough volkite when Mars was at its best, why would they have volkite after 10k years of viruses, daemons and rust? Maybe as a relic gun, tops. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 13:23, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- To be fair, The Mechanicus actually might have learned how to re-engineer them (at some point they'd have to have taken their weapons apart and put them back together, or used replacement parts so they'd know what they'd need to make a new one), but without the correct STC's they wouldn't even try (especially since they almost never make new STC's). Remember that a lot of the STC's they get are damaged, they can repair them by looking at the finished version and fixing up the STC so that it would build it correctly, though even if they did get the STC that probably wouldn't happen since Volkite weaponry is so much harder to manufacture than other weapons. -- Triacom (talk) 11:19, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, at the final closing moments of the Horus Heresy, the knowledge of how to make Volkite Weapons was lost forever, never to be relearned. Not even the tiniest fragments of knowledge how to make them even exist, and if they did, then by the events on mars they would be corrupted beyond all repair by Sentient SUPER VIRUSES Infused with DAEMONS. Ten Thousand Years Later, there is likely to be only 100 volkite weapons left in all of existence. Every last one of them is a treasured relic of the mechanicus, and lovingly repaired by people who would commit the genocide of entire sectors if it meant gaining the ability to make them once again. But they can't, because they just don't know how to anymore. Evilexecutive (talk) 02:33, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
Plasma is actually pretty well understood by the Mechanicus, they just don't like sharing (see: AdMech War Convocation not having Gets Hot). The random overheats are more a product of what constitutes acceptable losses. They could make plasma slightly less powerful and lose the overheat (the way the Tau do), but the odd Guardsman burning some fingers is considered an acceptable sacrifice for the increased power. A good number of the more pragmatic Magos do commit tech-heresy, usually by inventing things. A prime example of this is the Centurion warsuit. The AdMech claim it's an STC, which is obviously not true given that it's designed to interface with the Astartes Black Carapace. Because Astartes weren't around until M30, and all STCs are from the DAoT, this is patently untrue. An even more clear example is mk VIII power armor, which was designed and released post-heresy, and no one even pretends those weren't invented.--The Forgefather (talk)
- I think that'd mean they understand it "well enough", as in "Sure, we can make it stronger, but that somehow causes it to randomly explode". Back in 30k Riza actually knew how to make plasma cannons that didn't get hot, along with plasma better than Tau, but a huge ammount of that tech has been forgotten. And guess what other thing was difficult to do even in that not-quite-Golden-but-still-not-yet-40k-grimdark age? Volkite! Magi with inherited Volkites may know how to properly mantain the weapon, and they may posess a vast understanding of their weapon using that MIT-intellect of theirs, but most of the info they have comes from ritualized science papers. We have a very similar case with Phosphex -> STC destroyed, still exists as a relic, Imperium failed at reverse engineer it and conforms to using the similar Phosphor weapons. And remember, most of what marines use does come from STCs, the AdMech merely adapted them for astartes use, sometimes it even invented stuff, like Terminator armour. Of course, everyone always does tinkering with their stuff, that's how most artificer suits come to be, but nowadays most "invented" things are sanctioned mods of stuff - a LR variand (Crusader? Redeemer?) got approved mostly because the Ultras were using it, so it was approving it or saying that a founding legion was heretical. Hell, Baal predators are heresy in all the sense of the law (by not sharing the STC), yet no one does anthing about it. Although true, lots of stuff still gets
inventedrediscovered as well. Except for volkite. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 22:04, 1 December 2015 (UTC)- Inb4 that's pretty much how Grav guns came back, but still, not for CSM, 70.190.166.102. I really sound like I hate CSM and don't want them to have stuff, but nah. It's just GW treats them bad, for some reason. I mean, there was this dude who was trying to model the early-pre-heresy War Hounds, and when he emailed FW (to see if it had some sense to give them lots of volkite due to the setting) they told him that volkite was never common enough to be something beyond special issue. But setting like Jericho reach do have lots of new/modified tech, as well as relics, maybe there?. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 22:44, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
