Talk:Vulkan

Mortarion Witch Spite

Can you please stop adding Mory stuff? His DTW is flat dice 4+, and does not stack with AW, and FW confirmed it. We may assume it being flat dice 4+ would come to play after Magnus' release, since Crimson King sure as hell would have some DtW-breaking rules.

WHERE did Forge World confirm it? I checked the FAQ (and searched elsewhere) before adding that, after changing it back, and before posting this, nowhere do they say it's a flat 4+ no matter what, so I'll break this down: "Witch Spite: Mortarion passes any Deny the Witch roll on a D6 roll of 4+." "Adamantium Will: A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule receives a +1 bonus to Deny the Witch tests." So if I roll a 3, Adamantium Will adds +1 making that a D6 roll of 4, meaning Mortarion passes Deny the Witch on a 3+. -- Triacom (talk) 4:50, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

• Well as it turns out, Forgeworld confirmed that Mortarion's Deny the Witch DOES stack with Adamantium Will, thanks to Dark Angel 2020 for the following screenshot. Triacom (talk) 16:35, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

The questions are in the picture summary

Whoever did the primarchs battle stats forgot that IWND only apply at the end of your turn, thus any flat dmg reduction granted by IWND is halved. Posting this here because Vulkan rely on this for a lot of battles

IWND applying at a different time is exactly why it is done separately to anything else and why it says many times that it happens later. Changing the numbers like that is a misrepresentation of IWND since it will not apply on every round and this shows the reduction it offers on the turns it takes effect. -- Triacom (talk) 03:29, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

This isn't even up for debate, there are two combat phase for each IWND roll, the stats did not reflect that, i changed the stats, end of discussion

Your math is wrong, you're right this isn't up for debate. Either put up the correct math or don't bother, end of discussion. -- Triacom (talk) 05:23, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

That's really petty and you know it. And i don't think you even understand what i am changing. IWND apply on your turn, since there is a combat phase for both you and the other player you only get to roll for it once in two combat phase, precedent average did not reflect that.

What you're doing is showing it as if it affects every turn, which it does not. You need to write the full effect for it as there are combat rounds in the fights where a Primarch will just barely die before getting their IWND regen, and your math does not reflect that. Because of this your changes to it are wrong. -- Triacom (talk) 05:55, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Previous math didn't either, only change compared to mine was it applied IWND on each combat phase. I'll agree that these maths aren't perfect. Making a simulation on some exel doc would be better. So i'm putting back the new math

Having it apply each phase is not how it works, and it does affect the outcome of some of the fights. I'm going to revert it because of this since your math is simply wrong. -- Triacom (talk) 07:29, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

You don't get it, currently all IWND do on the maths is applying a flat 1/3(1/3+2/3*1/3 in the case of vulkan) malus corresponding to the statistical equivalent of a 5+ and a rerollable 5+ respectively on every dmg results but since it is spread over two phases i instead divided both by two. Point is i am not applying it to every combat phase but instead applying it on every two combat phase

No they do not. IWND does not try to save a Wound or mitigate damage taken, it flat out restores it which is why there can be rounds where on average Vulkan will take no damage, he gains back more Wounds than he'd lose on an average roll and factoring it in as a save not only forgets this, but it also applies it against all of an enemy's attacks, of which it can only be used against a successful one. That is wrong both for the order of operations as far as the game goes, and makes it both much stronger/weaker depending on how good the saves are for the unit it's on (either way, it makes it wrong). According to your math application, if Vulkan took 6 Wounds and had no Armour or Invulnerable save, IWND would somehow reduce that to 2.667 Wounds taken or 4.333, if we were to divide the save given by 2 to apply it to every round. That means IWND is recovering 3.333 Wounds or 1.667 Wounds, both of which it is mathematically incapable of doing. This is why your math is wrong and should not be on the main page. -- Triacom (talk) 08:22, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

I said it was a malus, as in -1/3, not *1/3. And were the respective turns even taken into account for the combats ? With the old results vulkan consistently beat ferrus when in reality they are evenly matched, so i assume the combats were calculated with IWND for both fighters in each phase.

If you calculate it with the respective phases and apply IWND properly then Vulcan kills Ferrus before Ferrus can kill him back because Ferrus' Servo-arm is Unwieldy and Vulcan is not. It's a close fight, however the description about Vulcan winning because he's tankier/regenerates faster is entirely accurate. -- Triacom (talk) 09:15, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Also the way you wrote that math (the equation specifically) is not how you claim it is here. -- Triacom (talk) 09:16, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Did you factor in the concussive rule from both weapons ? And i want to see the calculus Also i think most of this come from a misunderstanding, i assumed the "after IWND" dmg were used all the time and not half the time since it's not told clearly that it take the 1 roll for two combat phases in account.

Yes I did, Vulcan is not concussed in the turn he kills Ferrus. With some of the combats they might use the 'after IWND' dmg all the time but I cannot say for sure as if they did I did not do the math for those ones (I only did the math for some, and in my math I remember to factor in Unwieldy, Blind, Concussive and Strikedown if they apply). If you really want to see the damage race though then it's quite simple, to make it a fair fight Ferrus and Vulcan will strike as if it's both their turns but IWND will only apply every other turn (as it should). Here's what the race looks like (just in broken format because I don't feel like putting it into a table right now):

Ferrus Wounds Taken: 0.556 0.779 1.335 1.558 2.114 2.337 2.893 3.116 3.672 3.895 4.451 4.674 5.23 5.453 6.009

Vulcan Wounds Taken: 0.667 0.778 1.445 1.556 2.223 2.334 3.001 3.112 3.779 3.89 4.557 4.668 5.335 5.446 5.9796

Ferrus isn't able to strike with the arm until after he dies, and because of this he loses the .1334 damage it causes, and this causes him to lose the fight (albeit just barely). Also as you can see Vulcan will not have taken a full Wound in the 14th round, so he will not be Concussed in the 15th round. -- Triacom (talk) 09:41, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Ok, i get it, even if applying IWND for both at the same time doesn't feel right. And i doubt the results are expressed appropriately in the article, examples being leftovers such as "vulkan wins without a scratch" when he will lose wounds against everyone. This was removed here but there might be other bits like that. Maybe put up a whole page for that, since everyone can agree on these results being useless because of vacuum and you don't need it to tell you the like of fulgrim and horus are good in duel

The point of it isn't to tell you what a good matchup is so that you can take advantage of it on the tabletop (which is why it always says it's not a smart thing to have two Primarchs fight each other in an actual game), it's because people wonder which Primarch can beat which other Primarch. The whole point of it is just for fun, to see who'd win purely with averages and the rules given. -- Triacom (talk) 11:10, 12 July 2018 (UTC)