Talk:Warhammer/Tactics/8th Edition/High Elves
From 1d4chan
"Note: Please actually READ the High Elves rule book. Swordmasters of Hoeth and White Lions DO have always strike first even with great weapons. It states in the book they keep ASF. This has been asked and answered over and over. They KEEP ASF."
The army special rules for 8th edition High Elves has no mention of this. There is nothing about it in the BRB FAQ and the BRB says that a model with both ASF and ASL loses both rules. Any credibility you could have falls apart when you start talking about the High Elves 8th FAQ. There isn't one. Now are you actually going to say something this time, or do we just have to remove you from our page again? --Darklight (talk) 07:31, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
Magic items gone?[edit]
Since when are the core rulebook magic items gone? End Times didn't remove anything.
I was wondering too looks like someone deleted them and no one ever fixed it--166.137.244.114 22:15, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
The Banner of the World Dragon[edit]
Matt Ward's way of saying sorry for making Daemons of Chaos overpowered (also his way of saying FUCK YOU to other non-game-breaking, magic attack heavy armies). 50 points for a 2+ Ward save against magic, magic weapons and magic attacks for the unit, which includes miscast effects. Ward then had the balls to make this banner give stubborn to dragons within 12 inches. DoC players, Skaven players and Wood Elf players won't play with you if you use this. Magic weapons are supposed to be an upgrade, and one that makes your units more expensive (especially for the poor Wood Elves that have to pay extra for their arrows). This banner doesn't just make those extra points a waste, it actually punishes people for spending those points. Fighting an enemy that has a 2++ against your entire army is no fun. Imagine if other armies had a banner that gave a 2++ against units with Always Strikes First and used it against your elves. That's what this banner is like for the armies listed above. It requires zero strategy. Zero skill. People play this game to have fun, so if you bring this thing to friendly games, expect to be looking for new friends between each game.
A lot of players will whine at you, but keep in mind you're just using the tools your army's got. If someone says they won't play with you because of a certain magic item, it's time to find a new gaming group.
- Well, you could tell your friends that it's not your fault this item exists. But they'll probably reply with either "it is your fault that you put it in your list" or "it's not our fault we want to have fun." Either way, be warned about using this thing in friendly games. Unless you secretly hate your friends. Then, enjoy!
- Sure you can say that. The Banner is not exactly exploiting a loophole or unclear wording or something, it's just very powerful. Like a list with two Steam tanks. Or a unit of 30 Waywatchers laughing at the Banner and just killing everyone in the unit. Or a couple of Helblaster Volley Guns. Or Dwellers Below / Final Transmutation / Pit of Shades / Purple Sun just wiping the unit out regardless. If your opponent has no strategy or tactical acumen and beats you just because he had one unit with that banner, I think the problem is you.
- Please indent and sign your posts so it doesn't look like one person is suffering from split personalities and arguing with themselves. That out of the way, the problem is that those solutions aren't good solutions against the banner. Most of them involve using random chance and hoping you win several rolls in a row to have a chance at dealing with the banner (even if you wear down the unit, they can just move it to a different unit), and you're full of shit if you think Purple Sun or Pit of Shades will deal with a unit of Elves who have Initiative 5 across the entire army. Same with Final Transmutation, they're going to survive it, and they can hit you back with their own spells or units. To that end, they deal with Waywatchers easily and they also have some of the best magic in the game (I'm going to assume you know why it's a bad idea to believe that they'll forget about a Helblaster for several turns, allowing it to wear down the unit), so your only hope is getting Dwellers, then hoping the miscast doesn't kill you (because they will dispel it if you don't miscast) then hope that the banner isn't on white Lions. This also involves hoping that they don't snipe you first, which is far more likely seeing as Teclis can be put in that unit, and has a 100% chance to know Dwellers Below since he doesn't have to roll for it. This is on top of being practically invincible against Daemons, which the Banner clearly is exploiting since they have no source of non-magical damage. Finally, deathstars can easily win games, and it's very easy to build one using the banner. Even if they don't move at all they prevent your opponent getting to the squishy parts of your force by tying down heavier units, and allowing your ranged assets to shoot unmolested for nearly the entire game. -- Triacom (talk) 23:56, 28 July 2020 (UTC)
- Sure you can say that. The Banner is not exactly exploiting a loophole or unclear wording or something, it's just very powerful. Like a list with two Steam tanks. Or a unit of 30 Waywatchers laughing at the Banner and just killing everyone in the unit. Or a couple of Helblaster Volley Guns. Or Dwellers Below / Final Transmutation / Pit of Shades / Purple Sun just wiping the unit out regardless. If your opponent has no strategy or tactical acumen and beats you just because he had one unit with that banner, I think the problem is you.
- Dude, everything in Warhammer involves random chance and winning several rolls of dice in a row. Everything you posted as countermeasures against the Helblaster or whatever can fail miserably. Nothing particularly random about Waywatchers. You say the High Elves of course deal with them before, yeah that is great logic, the same way the Wood Elves can deal with the unit who is supposed to deal with the Waywatchers before they can do that. It's ridiculous to post a series of chain-links where everything in your army succeeded exactly in what it was supposed to and negates everything thrown against them. You win every game, right? There are lots of units/spells (in every army except one) which can deal damage to any T3 High Elf unit which does not trigger a 2+ Ward Save against magic attacks. As for Pit of Shades or Purple Sun, kindly include Melkoth's Miasma in your deliberations. The only army who indeed has a big problem, they only have three of the four spells and nothing else, are Daemons. So yes, if you're playing Daemons, your "friend" opponent knows that and his only unit is one giant 200-model Deathstar block, you all have my official OK to end the friendship at that point. --Jasko (talk) 08:30, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- Which part of buying BotWD involves random chance? Oh right, none of it, it's a safe investment and that's a big part of the problem. Yes nearly every aspect of the game involves random chance, but when your strategy of dealing with the banner is to possibly kill your lord for a 16% chance to get the banner (and way less than that to kill the rest of the unit), then you should be able to see the odds are not in your favour and your advice is bad advice. "You say the High Elves of course deal with them before, yeah that is great logic, the same way the Wood Elves can deal with the unit who is supposed to deal with the Waywatchers before they can do that." How do Waywatchers snipe Teclis out of a unit with the Banner? The answer is they don't, they get torn to pieces by his magic and their cost alone makes them a poor counter. That unit of 30 you mentioned for example would cost 610 points, and you'd send that to combat a 390 point unit? That's how much horses up Spearmen are when they don't have the banner in them, and I mention this because if the unit is somehow worn down through shooting across at least 3 turns (or more) they'll pop the banner out and put it in a different unit, same with any other characters that were with them. I also shouldn't need to tell you that it's a bad idea to spend most of the game trying to kill a unit 220 points less than your own unit. This is also the same issue with your regular cannons as a counter, except they'll need at least 4-5 turns to wear down the unit (and I guarantee the Helblaster will not survive long enough, it has a high chance of doing nothing even if they don't shoot it). For the record, the High Elves have no infantry that cost anything like Waywatchers, which makes them an inherently poor counter in general. As for other armies, the scales are already in your favour from the outset. In most cases you'll have better magic, better/cheaper shooting/infantry and you'll have a built in counter against most of the enemy's more devastating units. That a Treeman? I've got a banner that makes him worthless, so that 290+ points you spent on him are pissed away. If you combine that with the Waywatchers you recommend, that's already half your army spent against one item. "As for Pit of Shades or Purple Sun, kindly include Melkoth's Miasma in your deliberations." No, because you're not going to be able to guarantee you get both spells off without miscasting both (especially against scrolls), and you don't have enough dice for that. "It's ridiculous to post a series of chain-links where everything in your army succeeded exactly in what it was supposed to and negates everything thrown against them." Then why are you doing it? I haven't done that, instead I've pointed out why thinking everything will succeed in doing what it's doing is a bad idea since not everything will work out like how you envision. Finally Daemons have more issues than a single infantry block, they have issues with the characters inside it and the units behind it, neither of which they're likely to touch. That's a big part of the problem, the banner gives you immense battlefield control against Daemons and there's nothing they can do about it. -- Triacom (talk) 14:58, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- Dude, everything in Warhammer involves random chance and winning several rolls of dice in a row. Everything you posted as countermeasures against the Helblaster or whatever can fail miserably. Nothing particularly random about Waywatchers. You say the High Elves of course deal with them before, yeah that is great logic, the same way the Wood Elves can deal with the unit who is supposed to deal with the Waywatchers before they can do that. It's ridiculous to post a series of chain-links where everything in your army succeeded exactly in what it was supposed to and negates everything thrown against them. You win every game, right? There are lots of units/spells (in every army except one) which can deal damage to any T3 High Elf unit which does not trigger a 2+ Ward Save against magic attacks. As for Pit of Shades or Purple Sun, kindly include Melkoth's Miasma in your deliberations. The only army who indeed has a big problem, they only have three of the four spells and nothing else, are Daemons. So yes, if you're playing Daemons, your "friend" opponent knows that and his only unit is one giant 200-model Deathstar block, you all have my official OK to end the friendship at that point. --Jasko (talk) 08:30, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
- Oh come on, you knew exactly what I meant with random chance. You said the solutions to deal with the banner are no good because they involve random chance. Taking the Talisman of Preservation also doesn't involve any random chance, but killing anything (or surviving anything) in Warhammer is subject to chance, there are no auto-deaths or auto-saves. Just like you cannot "guarantee" a Helblaster will not survive that long. And the key point is, the vast majority of attacks against a unit with BotWD are not affected by it. They are exactly as likely to succeed with or without. Surely you aren't saying that you cannot defeat a High Elf army without the use of magic? Magic dealing wounds, to be more precise, hexes are of course completely unaffected, as are the aforementioned "test or die" spells. I also don't agree with your calculation, that unit is not 390 points, it's 1000 points with Teclis and the BSB, and it is the biggest threat at that point. How do you like to phrase it so patronisingly, I shouldn't have to tell you that you have to negate the biggest threat. Yes, the Waywatchers cannot snipe Teclis out, but a Waystalker can. Better yet: Snipe the BSB carrying the banner, he has only two wounds and the best save he can have is 4+/6++. Heck, one Waystalker has a chance of killing him in the first turn, a good one to do it in two. The 30 Waywatchers statistically will kill 15-20 Spearmen of the 40 per turn, and don't tell me you never missed a panic test, even with BSB. Wild Riders could be on that unit in turn 2, and they would just smash through them. And so on. Of course you can and will move Teclis and the BSB out before, but it's not like the other units weren't also attacked, namely by all those magic arrows which didn't need to bother shooting at the Spearmen. And, excuse me, yes you did post a series of events which would happen in your favour. You say I wouldn't be able to use my Helblasters. Why? Because you have a counter for that, either magic or great eagles or Reavers or whatever, nothing of which is guaranteed to work. I know it's also not guaranteed that the cannon isn't blowing up, or that I could get the Miasma through and the Pit afterwards, but the Miasma is a 5+ signature spell so I can easily have it twice in the army. Just as likely as you can roll poorly for the winds of magic and not even Teclis can destroy my army without power dice. Or with a smug grin you roll six dice with him because you're protected by the BotWD, just to then roll a 1 and Teclis is sucked into the Warp. Look, this discussion could go on forever. Nobody is denying that the Banner is very powerful. But to insinuate that taking it means the HE will auto-win the game, or that the HE-player doesn't need any strategy anymore, or that it breaks the game, or proclaiming that you would not play against an HE player using it, is childish in my view. If you play amongst friends, and you're bringing Daemons of Chaos and one is bringing the Banner, yeah, call him our for that, that won't be a fun game. But everything else: Nope, every other army has means to deal with the Banner.--Jasko (talk) 14:49, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
- I said your solutions to deal with the banner are no good because they rely too much on random chance, as in if you crunch the numbers, they work less than 40% of the time. If a solution isn't going to work the majority of the time or is way more expensive than the problem then it's a bad solution. "Surely you aren't saying that you cannot defeat a High Elf army without the use of magic?" Depends on which army you're playing. If you're Empire and Dwarfs, then no (and in both cases, the solution for the unit isn't cannons). If you're Dark Elves you're going to be hard-pressed without investing in magic yourself, and if you're Bretonnia then Magic's really the only thing you've got going for you since everything else is so inferior to the High Elves (and you normally cannot take more than 2 Trebuchets, making it relatively easy for them to be shot off the table). "I also don't agree with your calculation, that unit is not 390 points, it's 1000 points with Teclis and the BSB-" The reason I didn't include them in the unit's cost is because as soon as the unit takes enough damage, they'll immediately leave it and join a different unit, meaning you only gained 390 points by dealing with the unit. I'll admit I forgot that the Waystalker had Sniper, so that's at least one solution for dealing with it, a shame the other armies don't have something like that. "and don't tell me you never missed a panic test, even with BSB." I've never failed a panic test on LD 10 with a BSB nearby, I can honestly say that. "Wild Riders could be on that unit in turn 2, and they would just smash through them." Assuming you do kill 16 (I'm not going to assume you get within short range without moving and shooting and there was no cover) and assuming you do line up the Wild Riders for a charge in the following turn, you've just given your opponent enough time to shift their formation so that they still get Steadfast when they're charged, or pop the banner and Teclis out to go into a different unit, or both. You mention this yourself, but it's pretty important when one of your cav pieces gets held up and can then be charged in the side and lose combat, especially when they were frenzied. "And, excuse me, yes you did post a series of events which would happen in your favour." No, my point is that those counters were not likely to work out, that's not a series of events, that's number crunching. "You say I wouldn't be able to use my Helblasters. Why? Because you have a counter for that, either magic or great eagles or Reavers or whatever, nothing of which is guaranteed to work." Actually my counter is just staying at long range, shooting it back and waiting for it to explode. The odds are pretty in my favour that even with an Engineer on the Helblaster, it'll take at least 3 turns for it to compromise the unit (and at least 4 if there's any form of cover, and it will hardly do anything without an Engineer), and that's assuming I cannot shoot it down myself when High Elf shooting is a lot more reliable than Empire shooting, and more than capable of removing Helblasters in 3 turns. "Just as likely as you can roll poorly for the winds of magic and not even Teclis can destroy my army without power dice." That's why I'm focusing on what's likely to happen, not what isn't. "But everything else: Nope, every other army has means to deal with the Banner." How do Skaven deal with it? Everything they have that's meant to deal with Infantry blobs is either weak to horded up Spearmen, or has magical attacks. -- Triacom (talk) 19:15, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
- The prospect of charging steadfast Spearmen with the Wild Riders would not scare me, as I would be going for Teclis and the BSB anyway, since they're virtually defenceless with their five wounds at T3 and no armour save, two wounds maybe having a 6++. I also don't know why I wouldn't be able to set up my scouting Waywatchers in their 18" short range distance. Cover, sure, there might be cover. As for Bretonnia, well yes, the army which GW neglected since 6th edition might have a problem too, but they have massive problems dealing with many armies anyway, probably most. It's not like the Banner suddenly breaks Bretonnia, that ship has sailed long before. As for Dark Elves, why would they need magic to deal with Spearmen or Teclis or the BSB? They can use all their powerful magic and magic attacks against the other units. Similar for Skaven. Rat Ogres, Stormvermin, Hell Pit Abominations, Assassins, they're all good units who can deal quite a lot of mundane damage. Even regular Clanrats cost only half of what a High Elf Spearman costs. And of course, Skaven have the thirteenth spell which circumvents the Banner. All in all, for me it breaks down like that: If a High Elf player takes two 10 model Archer units and then a 150 model Spearman horde (to fulfil the "minimum three units" rule), puts the banner and all characters in and makes a 2000 point deathstar, he's a dick. Yes, I agree, it was the Banner which enabled him to be a dick in the first place, but for me the fault still lies with the player. If, on top of it, he knew you'd be bringing Daemons of Chaos, he's definitely not a friend of yours and had zero interest in a fun game. I don't play against those guys either. But, if he has an otherwise "normal" army (whatever that means) which also includes the Banner, I have no problem with that. --Jasko (talk) 15:49, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
- So how do you stop them from just moving to another unit if it takes a turn to get around to charging them in the first place? "I also don't know why I wouldn't be able to set up my scouting Waywatchers in their 18" short range distance." 15" is their short-range distance and I'm assuming the player you're up against will not be ignorant of this tactic. "It's not like the Banner suddenly breaks Bretonnia, that ship has sailed long before." So because it makes an existing problem worse it doesn't matter? "As for Dark Elves, why would they need magic to deal with Spearmen or Teclis or the BSB? They can use all their powerful magic and magic attacks against the other units." Because Teclis can wreck them and counter their magic. I shouldn't need to tell you that you need to deal with Teclis and cannot just ignore him. "Similar for Skaven. Rat Ogres, Stormvermin, Hell Pit Abominations, Assassins, they're all good units who can deal quite a lot of mundane damage." Rat Ogres are very vulnerable to Spearmen hordes, they lose 4 models to the Spearmen before they can even attack, and that's without being buffed. If Teclis chooses Okkam's Mindrazor then Rat Ogres lose 10 models to them before being able to attack. Assassin's are fine, except when they're up against Hordes who can kill them with their weight of attacks (they die in the second round of combat against Spearmen while only killing 8, so you're trading 120+ points for 72). Hell Pit Abominations are the same way, if they have the Banner of Eternal Flame then a Hell Pit Abomination charges into the Spearmen, then dies immediately and never gets to attack at all apart from its Impact Hits. I'm not kidding either, they will kill it on average (taking 2 combat rounds without the banner) even without being buffed. Now finally we get to Stormvermin, they're fine and can handle Spearmen, the problem is they go down easy to ranged fire and that's what the High Elves are likely to have in droves. I will also mention Clanrats real quick because they're not a good counter either, their Initiative is lower which grants the Spearmen re-rolls on their to-hit rolls, so they butcher their way through the Clanrats, even without buffs. "And of course, Skaven have the thirteenth spell which circumvents the Banner." Assuming you're going to get it, you're going to kill 126 points per miscast (on average, and I'm including miscasts since it's more likely to happen then not when you get the spell) and the guy with the Banner will still be there when it's over since he only dies if you take out the entire unit. Spearmen are just not a good target for that spell. I agree that you can use the banner without intentionally screwing over the opponent if you're more interested in a fun game, at the same time I also do believe the original opinion had some merit, because it's very easy to abuse, especially when you can use it on regular wizards to prevent them from taking damage (or stack it on top of a Wizard with Throne of Vines for a 2+ followed by a 2+ save against most magic miscast results). -- Triacom (talk) 20:26, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
- So how do you stop them from just moving to another unit if it takes a turn to get around to charging them in the first place? With the right mage, the Net of Amyntok would be a way, and it would just be hilarious on S2 Teclis. But in most cases, you can probably not prevent it. At least leaving a unit is not a charge reaction, so you don't need to charge once they have left. And with Wood Elves being one of the most mobile armies, with access to ambushers, the noose would be getting tighter. So because it makes an existing problem worse it doesn't matter? In this case? Yes. Bretonnia (def against HE) is broken in the first place. If you're going to lose, idk, 95% of games anyway, it's silly to get outraged if that number jumps to 99%. What would their strategy be against HE without the Banner? They can still have Teclis to shut down their magic. Assassin's are fine, except when they're up against Hordes who can kill them with their weight of attacks (they die in the second round of combat against Spearmen while only killing 8, so you're trading 120+ points for 72). Now why would I go after the Spearmen with the Assassin? With 4 poisoned attacks hitting on 3+ and wounding on 2+, I have an excellent chance of killing Teclis in one round. I shouldn't need to tell you that you need to deal with Teclis and cannot just ignore him.--Jasko (talk) 20:46, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
- Net of Amyntok isn't a good idea, if you get the spell and manage to cast it, the unit's going to be testing on S4 because it's one test for the whole unit so it's more likely they get away than not. I'm also not going to guess how the rest of the battle goes because I could just as easily say that Teclis takes down the unit of Waywatchers and uses Mindrazor to annihilate anyone that comes close to the High Elves (all he needs to do is put it on some Ellyrion Reavers as an example). "In this case? Yes. Bretonnia (def against HE) is broken in the first place." With that mindset why was anyone complaining about losing to 7E Chaos Daemons? If they're broken and you know you're going to lose and you know it, why complain about it? The answer is the same: because one army shouldn't have that much power over the other. The best bet Bretonnia had for dealing with High Elves was through their magic, using either offensive spells or specific gear like the Feedback Scroll and Silver Mirror to kill Wizards using spells against them. Yeah Teclis counters their spells, but only if he's alive and with those two items he'd either be very limited in what he attempts, or he'd be dead in turn 2. Now however that's gone away because Wizards get a 2+ save against them, removing the only answer they had. "Now why would I go after the Spearmen with the Assassin?" You tell me. You said in dealing with the Spearmen: "Similar for Skaven. Rat Ogres, Stormvermin, Hell Pit Abominations, Assassins, they're all good units who can deal quite a lot of mundane damage." If you didn't mean to use him against the Spearmen like every other unit there, then I'd prefer you to have clarified that when you included him. Also that still leaves you with the banner, which is the problem this topic is about, and it still leaves you with the combat loss. -- Triacom (talk) 21:32, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
- If you didn't mean to use him against the Spearmen like every other unit there, then I'd prefer you to have clarified that when you included him. Also that still leaves you with the banner, which is the problem this topic is about, and it still leaves you with the combat loss. Well yeah, we were talking about units attacking the Spearmen with Teclis and the BSB. What possible ways there are to either deal damage to the unit regardless of the banner, or of course deal damage to either Teclis or the Banner itself. If Teclis is gone, the Banner lost a very big deal of what made it so dangerous, giving Teclis the ability to deal magic with little repercussions. That Assassin and probably the whole unit did not cost 450 points and just took out the biggest threat on the table.--Jasko (talk) 21:55, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
- "Well yeah, we were talking about units attacking the Spearmen with Teclis and the BSB." Then you should work on your number crunching, all Teclis needs to do is choose the Savage Beast to kill the Assassin (alongside the Spearmen's attacks) since it's very unlikely for him to die in one round of combat against the Assassin, even with T2. Hell he could even challenge the Assassin so that the other models in the unit couldn't attack him and win by keeping his wounds topped up with magic. "If Teclis is gone, the Banner lost a very big deal of what made it so dangerous, giving Teclis the ability to deal magic with little repercussions." That's only part of it, even without Teclis that unit saws through Clanrats, is immune to all Skaven ranged units that are meant to deal with blobs and kills Hell Pits before the Abomination can even attack (with the BoEF). That's still a massive threat even if Teclis isn't taken. -- Triacom (talk) 22:08, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
- If you didn't mean to use him against the Spearmen like every other unit there, then I'd prefer you to have clarified that when you included him. Also that still leaves you with the banner, which is the problem this topic is about, and it still leaves you with the combat loss. Well yeah, we were talking about units attacking the Spearmen with Teclis and the BSB. What possible ways there are to either deal damage to the unit regardless of the banner, or of course deal damage to either Teclis or the Banner itself. If Teclis is gone, the Banner lost a very big deal of what made it so dangerous, giving Teclis the ability to deal magic with little repercussions. That Assassin and probably the whole unit did not cost 450 points and just took out the biggest threat on the table.--Jasko (talk) 21:55, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
- Net of Amyntok isn't a good idea, if you get the spell and manage to cast it, the unit's going to be testing on S4 because it's one test for the whole unit so it's more likely they get away than not. I'm also not going to guess how the rest of the battle goes because I could just as easily say that Teclis takes down the unit of Waywatchers and uses Mindrazor to annihilate anyone that comes close to the High Elves (all he needs to do is put it on some Ellyrion Reavers as an example). "In this case? Yes. Bretonnia (def against HE) is broken in the first place." With that mindset why was anyone complaining about losing to 7E Chaos Daemons? If they're broken and you know you're going to lose and you know it, why complain about it? The answer is the same: because one army shouldn't have that much power over the other. The best bet Bretonnia had for dealing with High Elves was through their magic, using either offensive spells or specific gear like the Feedback Scroll and Silver Mirror to kill Wizards using spells against them. Yeah Teclis counters their spells, but only if he's alive and with those two items he'd either be very limited in what he attempts, or he'd be dead in turn 2. Now however that's gone away because Wizards get a 2+ save against them, removing the only answer they had. "Now why would I go after the Spearmen with the Assassin?" You tell me. You said in dealing with the Spearmen: "Similar for Skaven. Rat Ogres, Stormvermin, Hell Pit Abominations, Assassins, they're all good units who can deal quite a lot of mundane damage." If you didn't mean to use him against the Spearmen like every other unit there, then I'd prefer you to have clarified that when you included him. Also that still leaves you with the banner, which is the problem this topic is about, and it still leaves you with the combat loss. -- Triacom (talk) 21:32, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
- So how do you stop them from just moving to another unit if it takes a turn to get around to charging them in the first place? With the right mage, the Net of Amyntok would be a way, and it would just be hilarious on S2 Teclis. But in most cases, you can probably not prevent it. At least leaving a unit is not a charge reaction, so you don't need to charge once they have left. And with Wood Elves being one of the most mobile armies, with access to ambushers, the noose would be getting tighter. So because it makes an existing problem worse it doesn't matter? In this case? Yes. Bretonnia (def against HE) is broken in the first place. If you're going to lose, idk, 95% of games anyway, it's silly to get outraged if that number jumps to 99%. What would their strategy be against HE without the Banner? They can still have Teclis to shut down their magic. Assassin's are fine, except when they're up against Hordes who can kill them with their weight of attacks (they die in the second round of combat against Spearmen while only killing 8, so you're trading 120+ points for 72). Now why would I go after the Spearmen with the Assassin? With 4 poisoned attacks hitting on 3+ and wounding on 2+, I have an excellent chance of killing Teclis in one round. I shouldn't need to tell you that you need to deal with Teclis and cannot just ignore him.--Jasko (talk) 20:46, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
- So how do you stop them from just moving to another unit if it takes a turn to get around to charging them in the first place? "I also don't know why I wouldn't be able to set up my scouting Waywatchers in their 18" short range distance." 15" is their short-range distance and I'm assuming the player you're up against will not be ignorant of this tactic. "It's not like the Banner suddenly breaks Bretonnia, that ship has sailed long before." So because it makes an existing problem worse it doesn't matter? "As for Dark Elves, why would they need magic to deal with Spearmen or Teclis or the BSB? They can use all their powerful magic and magic attacks against the other units." Because Teclis can wreck them and counter their magic. I shouldn't need to tell you that you need to deal with Teclis and cannot just ignore him. "Similar for Skaven. Rat Ogres, Stormvermin, Hell Pit Abominations, Assassins, they're all good units who can deal quite a lot of mundane damage." Rat Ogres are very vulnerable to Spearmen hordes, they lose 4 models to the Spearmen before they can even attack, and that's without being buffed. If Teclis chooses Okkam's Mindrazor then Rat Ogres lose 10 models to them before being able to attack. Assassin's are fine, except when they're up against Hordes who can kill them with their weight of attacks (they die in the second round of combat against Spearmen while only killing 8, so you're trading 120+ points for 72). Hell Pit Abominations are the same way, if they have the Banner of Eternal Flame then a Hell Pit Abomination charges into the Spearmen, then dies immediately and never gets to attack at all apart from its Impact Hits. I'm not kidding either, they will kill it on average (taking 2 combat rounds without the banner) even without being buffed. Now finally we get to Stormvermin, they're fine and can handle Spearmen, the problem is they go down easy to ranged fire and that's what the High Elves are likely to have in droves. I will also mention Clanrats real quick because they're not a good counter either, their Initiative is lower which grants the Spearmen re-rolls on their to-hit rolls, so they butcher their way through the Clanrats, even without buffs. "And of course, Skaven have the thirteenth spell which circumvents the Banner." Assuming you're going to get it, you're going to kill 126 points per miscast (on average, and I'm including miscasts since it's more likely to happen then not when you get the spell) and the guy with the Banner will still be there when it's over since he only dies if you take out the entire unit. Spearmen are just not a good target for that spell. I agree that you can use the banner without intentionally screwing over the opponent if you're more interested in a fun game, at the same time I also do believe the original opinion had some merit, because it's very easy to abuse, especially when you can use it on regular wizards to prevent them from taking damage (or stack it on top of a Wizard with Throne of Vines for a 2+ followed by a 2+ save against most magic miscast results). -- Triacom (talk) 20:26, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
- The prospect of charging steadfast Spearmen with the Wild Riders would not scare me, as I would be going for Teclis and the BSB anyway, since they're virtually defenceless with their five wounds at T3 and no armour save, two wounds maybe having a 6++. I also don't know why I wouldn't be able to set up my scouting Waywatchers in their 18" short range distance. Cover, sure, there might be cover. As for Bretonnia, well yes, the army which GW neglected since 6th edition might have a problem too, but they have massive problems dealing with many armies anyway, probably most. It's not like the Banner suddenly breaks Bretonnia, that ship has sailed long before. As for Dark Elves, why would they need magic to deal with Spearmen or Teclis or the BSB? They can use all their powerful magic and magic attacks against the other units. Similar for Skaven. Rat Ogres, Stormvermin, Hell Pit Abominations, Assassins, they're all good units who can deal quite a lot of mundane damage. Even regular Clanrats cost only half of what a High Elf Spearman costs. And of course, Skaven have the thirteenth spell which circumvents the Banner. All in all, for me it breaks down like that: If a High Elf player takes two 10 model Archer units and then a 150 model Spearman horde (to fulfil the "minimum three units" rule), puts the banner and all characters in and makes a 2000 point deathstar, he's a dick. Yes, I agree, it was the Banner which enabled him to be a dick in the first place, but for me the fault still lies with the player. If, on top of it, he knew you'd be bringing Daemons of Chaos, he's definitely not a friend of yours and had zero interest in a fun game. I don't play against those guys either. But, if he has an otherwise "normal" army (whatever that means) which also includes the Banner, I have no problem with that. --Jasko (talk) 15:49, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
- I said your solutions to deal with the banner are no good because they rely too much on random chance, as in if you crunch the numbers, they work less than 40% of the time. If a solution isn't going to work the majority of the time or is way more expensive than the problem then it's a bad solution. "Surely you aren't saying that you cannot defeat a High Elf army without the use of magic?" Depends on which army you're playing. If you're Empire and Dwarfs, then no (and in both cases, the solution for the unit isn't cannons). If you're Dark Elves you're going to be hard-pressed without investing in magic yourself, and if you're Bretonnia then Magic's really the only thing you've got going for you since everything else is so inferior to the High Elves (and you normally cannot take more than 2 Trebuchets, making it relatively easy for them to be shot off the table). "I also don't agree with your calculation, that unit is not 390 points, it's 1000 points with Teclis and the BSB-" The reason I didn't include them in the unit's cost is because as soon as the unit takes enough damage, they'll immediately leave it and join a different unit, meaning you only gained 390 points by dealing with the unit. I'll admit I forgot that the Waystalker had Sniper, so that's at least one solution for dealing with it, a shame the other armies don't have something like that. "and don't tell me you never missed a panic test, even with BSB." I've never failed a panic test on LD 10 with a BSB nearby, I can honestly say that. "Wild Riders could be on that unit in turn 2, and they would just smash through them." Assuming you do kill 16 (I'm not going to assume you get within short range without moving and shooting and there was no cover) and assuming you do line up the Wild Riders for a charge in the following turn, you've just given your opponent enough time to shift their formation so that they still get Steadfast when they're charged, or pop the banner and Teclis out to go into a different unit, or both. You mention this yourself, but it's pretty important when one of your cav pieces gets held up and can then be charged in the side and lose combat, especially when they were frenzied. "And, excuse me, yes you did post a series of events which would happen in your favour." No, my point is that those counters were not likely to work out, that's not a series of events, that's number crunching. "You say I wouldn't be able to use my Helblasters. Why? Because you have a counter for that, either magic or great eagles or Reavers or whatever, nothing of which is guaranteed to work." Actually my counter is just staying at long range, shooting it back and waiting for it to explode. The odds are pretty in my favour that even with an Engineer on the Helblaster, it'll take at least 3 turns for it to compromise the unit (and at least 4 if there's any form of cover, and it will hardly do anything without an Engineer), and that's assuming I cannot shoot it down myself when High Elf shooting is a lot more reliable than Empire shooting, and more than capable of removing Helblasters in 3 turns. "Just as likely as you can roll poorly for the winds of magic and not even Teclis can destroy my army without power dice." That's why I'm focusing on what's likely to happen, not what isn't. "But everything else: Nope, every other army has means to deal with the Banner." How do Skaven deal with it? Everything they have that's meant to deal with Infantry blobs is either weak to horded up Spearmen, or has magical attacks. -- Triacom (talk) 19:15, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
- Oh come on, you knew exactly what I meant with random chance. You said the solutions to deal with the banner are no good because they involve random chance. Taking the Talisman of Preservation also doesn't involve any random chance, but killing anything (or surviving anything) in Warhammer is subject to chance, there are no auto-deaths or auto-saves. Just like you cannot "guarantee" a Helblaster will not survive that long. And the key point is, the vast majority of attacks against a unit with BotWD are not affected by it. They are exactly as likely to succeed with or without. Surely you aren't saying that you cannot defeat a High Elf army without the use of magic? Magic dealing wounds, to be more precise, hexes are of course completely unaffected, as are the aforementioned "test or die" spells. I also don't agree with your calculation, that unit is not 390 points, it's 1000 points with Teclis and the BSB, and it is the biggest threat at that point. How do you like to phrase it so patronisingly, I shouldn't have to tell you that you have to negate the biggest threat. Yes, the Waywatchers cannot snipe Teclis out, but a Waystalker can. Better yet: Snipe the BSB carrying the banner, he has only two wounds and the best save he can have is 4+/6++. Heck, one Waystalker has a chance of killing him in the first turn, a good one to do it in two. The 30 Waywatchers statistically will kill 15-20 Spearmen of the 40 per turn, and don't tell me you never missed a panic test, even with BSB. Wild Riders could be on that unit in turn 2, and they would just smash through them. And so on. Of course you can and will move Teclis and the BSB out before, but it's not like the other units weren't also attacked, namely by all those magic arrows which didn't need to bother shooting at the Spearmen. And, excuse me, yes you did post a series of events which would happen in your favour. You say I wouldn't be able to use my Helblasters. Why? Because you have a counter for that, either magic or great eagles or Reavers or whatever, nothing of which is guaranteed to work. I know it's also not guaranteed that the cannon isn't blowing up, or that I could get the Miasma through and the Pit afterwards, but the Miasma is a 5+ signature spell so I can easily have it twice in the army. Just as likely as you can roll poorly for the winds of magic and not even Teclis can destroy my army without power dice. Or with a smug grin you roll six dice with him because you're protected by the BotWD, just to then roll a 1 and Teclis is sucked into the Warp. Look, this discussion could go on forever. Nobody is denying that the Banner is very powerful. But to insinuate that taking it means the HE will auto-win the game, or that the HE-player doesn't need any strategy anymore, or that it breaks the game, or proclaiming that you would not play against an HE player using it, is childish in my view. If you play amongst friends, and you're bringing Daemons of Chaos and one is bringing the Banner, yeah, call him our for that, that won't be a fun game. But everything else: Nope, every other army has means to deal with the Banner.--Jasko (talk) 14:49, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
