Talk:Warhammer/Tactics/8th Edition/Undead Legions

Where should we put Lore of Undeath tactica (i.e. "what should I summon for my army")? Here (too much bloat already), on magic page (too much bloat already), respective army pages (worth it? also, possible bloat) or create a brand new page (is the subject worth it?)?

Bloat shouldn't matter, it's not like there's a character limit. If it's an army tactic, it should stay on their page. I can see rulebook magic items or the core eight lores having their own page that says army-by-army if that item/lore is good or not, but if it's an army-specific lore or item (even if, like woodies, they share a lore FROM another source) then it should be on their own page. If it's shit like Storm of Magic that everyone gets in the scenario, it should have it's own page though (Storm of Magic Tactics is indeed on my to-do list, but my crunch-fu is weak so it's low on the list). --Thannak (talk) 20:32, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

I'd say it should be given its own page, or put on the magic page since everyone can use it, and it's not specific to Undead Legions like Nehekaran magic and Vampire magic is (those I think we should add here). --Triacom

On Bloat

Does bloat really matter any? There's a table of contents for a reason, and anyone not skipping to something specific is probably reading the whole page anyway.

It just seems like fussing to me.

Some detail is nice, but when it gets out of hand it ruins the article, just look at the old Vampire Counts Tactics page: http://1d4chan.org/index.php?title=Warhammer/Tactics/8th_Edition/Vampire_Counts&oldid=237969 That's when a page becomes an absolute mess, a reader should not have to scroll up to the top or ctrl-f to find what they're looking for, and a tactics page bloated from too much unnecessary detail (like saying all of the stats of a model when anybody using it will have the rulebook in front of them) to the point that it's hard to tell whether or not the page is recommending a model, is a poor tactics page. If you want to go into a lot of detail then it's better to make a separate page on the model in general (see Nagash, Melkhior and Zacharias the Everliving), or use div tags to collapse that section. --Triacom

On Discussion

NOTHING on the main page should be in the first person. "I had x experience" should not be on the main page, it should only contain actual useful info rather than anecdotes. If you need to discuss something, this page is where to do it. Further more, there should be no "retort". If there's different ways to look at something, then put "There are multiple ways to look at x" at the top of the section, then list both points later in the informative style.

Oh, and you can't bring Loremaster Mannfred, as the page of the Nagash book containing the rules lists the options available to Undead Legion, and only "Mannfred, Mortarch of Night" (the new mounted model) is listed. --Thannak (talk) 19:08, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Gosh, I go away for a couple of weeks and the page gets out of control. I'll put all those Retorts and opinions in talk, so anyone with a desire to do so can turn in into actual tactical advice. 77.99.143.138 12:06, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Good call on this, I don't know why I didn't do that, but thanks. --Triacom

Magic Lores and Morghasts

someone clear this mess and turn in into actual tactics. preferably one of you bickerers.

Lore of Undeath. Yeah, someone decided to let everyone summon skeletons. Literally everyone. Sigh. God damn it, Games Workshop. You were doing so well, and then you had to bust out the blatant marketing scheme to sell more zombies. On the whole, Lore of Undeath isn't bad, but it's what everyone is going to EXPECT you to have, so you should probably take Lore of the Vampires instead. Lore of the Vampires is very, very good at what it does, which is make your opponents dead. If you're loading up on casters with a Legion army (and you should be), Lore of the Vampires will do the lifting that you need.

Alternate opinion: Something to keep in mind if you take Lore of Vampires, everyone except Dwarfs can take the Lore of Undeath, EVERYONE and they can summon a shitload of models onto the table using it too (including really tough ones you do not want to charge, Ryze and one RtD counter will allow that goblin shaman to summon 2 Morghasts into your flank), if you do only choose the Lore of Vampires, not only are you are in danger of being continuously outnumbered and ground down but also in danger of having really hard to kill units popping out of everywhere since Lore of Undeath does far more than just raise new units of skeletons and zombies, and though Lore of Vampires is a good lore, it works better to support Lore of Undeath and to keep all the new units alive. --Triacom

Retort: The entire point of Undead Legion, if you weren't paying attention, is that /you own the Magic Phase/. If you're running Nagash or Mannfred the Morty Edition or any number of level 4 Casters (read: Vampire Lords), almost nobody is gonna be capable of outcasting you. High Elves will even have a hard time keeping up with new Mannfred's ridiculous antics (up to 5 extra dice in your opponent's dispel phase after a good round of combat? Yowza.) You will get more dice, more often, and your Wizards are all ridiculously fighty on top of being top-shelf Wizards. If your opponent wants to sling dice summoning undead every turn, that's wonderful news for you. It means they're not casting Purple Sun or unpleasant Lore of Light tricks or spells that could actually hurt you. I'd like to take a moment to point out that summoning two Morghasts is a 16+ casting value spell, which means that your opponent isn't going to be casting anything else that turn. So if your opponent somehow manages to cast it without having a miscast blow him up or you dispelling it, remind him to thank his lucky gods.

-Response: So you're taking an overpriced Lord character up against the multiple Lord level wizards the opponent has? Mannfred isn't worth his points, not even to keep the opponents magic phase down because you need him in combat, but pit him against any list with a lot of shooting or a lot of artillery and he's going to go down since T6 only takes you so far even if you have 10 wounds. How is the enemy summoning 150 points of monstrous infantry per wizard good news for you in any way? I'd take the damage dealing spells since you can heal those at least. Summoning two Morghasts with a lvl 4 wizard takes three dice and a token, there's plenty of a magic phase to go around after that, it's not like a 24+ spell where you actually need to put six dice into it, and they can also summon characters into these units, meaning as well as summoning large units, they can put Necrotects in that unit (or even Tomb Princes once they have the tokens for it), how is this not an issue and why wouldn't you want to put Necrotects in almost all of your units? --Triacom

Also... ground down? Have you not played with Lore of the Vampires? Two or three dudes casting Invocation every turn means that not only are your now-plentiful multiwound characters a real bitch to kill for good, it means that all your units will be at full strength, all the time.

-Response: But that only means you're at full strength while your opponent is growing, summoning things like Crypt Horrors or in your flanks and Morghasts to make sure that even if they somehow lose combat they take less wounds from it. Also you should never assume your casters are indestructible. --Triacom

Oh, and I forgot the other VERY good reason to be taking Lore of the Vampires over Lore of Undeath: Corpse Carts. They work on everyone now. This means that you can give all of your Undead ridiculous AoE buffs with just two of the suckers in a 2,000 point game. Ever played against two blocks of 30 crypt ghouls each buffed by a corpse cart and a casting of Van Hel's Danse Macabre every turn? It's like watching a meat grinder that's coming at you at 100 mph.

-Response: Yeah I've played against that, I just shot the Corpse Carts. They are a huge target and quite easy to destroy, if your opponent lets them get close they're an idiot, and even if they do your opponent can just summon 50 (literally 50) zombies to stand in the way of each Ghoul unit to soak up all the hits making those ghouls useless, then next turn they can summon a Necromancer to make sure those zombies aren't ever going to die. --Triacom

Just about the only time you'd want to take Lore of Undeath is if you're running an Arkhan or Nagash list, as they are obviously specialized at it and the doubling/tripling is huge.

-Response: Regular casters do just fine with the Lore of Undeath and they don't have to worry about mass shooting or artillery spam, both of which can take them down, as well as them costing a huge amount of points. --Triacom

The new Monstrous Creatures, Morghasts.. uh. There's really no way to say this nicely. They're overpriced (in both real money and points), and you have a dozen better options. Skip them and save your money for better kits.

Alternate Opinion: Another opinion on the Morghasts is that they are actually a good thing and not as overpriced as previously stated by a GW naysayer. The models stand as tall as a dreadnaught and are pretty awesome as well. In game they will provide some much needed high tough, high wound monster that can stay in the back lines of your army and not be torn to shreds as easy as a skeleton warrior. They are options worth consideration if for no other reason than they are cool models with fun rules and when it comes down to it (contrary to popular belief) winning is not everything.

-But its a tactics page. I assume that means winning tactics.

-Response: Which is why an alternate opinion is that they work fantastically as redirectors using the Lore of Undeath to bring them in (which prevents them from being shot to death), since they are only 2 models wide, you don't have to be worried about scarier units charging your wizards, summon the morghasts slanted slightly so that if they enemy charges and somehow wins, they'll overrunning the wrong direction from you, setting up a flank charge from another of your units, or they'll have to just sit there, either way you just bought yourself another full turn (at the minimum, losing one less wound from losing combat is HUGE, especially if they are near the BSB)) of not having that unit in combat, and since every wizard can summon them now this strategy works for all wizards. --Triacom

Retort: I'm not naysaying GW, I'm naysaying Harbingers and Archai. Nice job straw manning me, though, douchebag. You could run a Hierotitan, Necrosphinx, some Vargheists, another kitted out Vampire hero, or any number of actually useful things.. or spend a good chunk of those points on two Morghasts (and you'd never want to take JUST two, because they'll lose combat resolution faster than you can say Hail Nagash). They're a cool kit, sure, but as you pointed out, this is a page discussing tactical viability. If the best you can come up with is 'if they die your opponent might go the wrong direction', they're not useful. I can summon swarms of zombies for that. If you could take six of them, they'd be useful. But that would be expensive, in both points and actual money, hence my ORIGINAL complaint. Instead of paying $180 USD plus tax (assuming direct from retail) for six dudes that're glorified ogres with a leadership aura, you could buy three or four huge monster kits (for example, a Necrosphinx, Casket of Souls, and a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon/Terrorgheist) which will actually have a substantial impact on your army and are also pretty sweet models on top of that.

-Response: I wasn't the one strawmanning you, nice job checking to see who wrote that. So you've never heard of redirectors I take it? If your opponent runs the wrong way, now they not only can't attack you, but they're vulnerable to getting flank charged, rear charged, getting shot, and it's going to take them another full turn if they aren't in combat of fixing this mistake (even better is if they go off the table). That's useful. If you want to recommend how to spend money then put it in the buying your army section, not in the tactics portion. --Triacom

While I'm at it, let's discuss the relative costs of Harbingers and Archai in game points. They are, each, nearly 100 points per model. Are you kidding me? Over 150 points for 8 wounds and 8/10 attacks (counting stomp) with a 4+/5+ armor save on T5? You could take a 10-strong block of Grave Guard with all the upgrades (or a 15-strong block of naked Guard) for the cost of those two dudes. They would have more attacks (and at Str 6), get better results in combat resolution, actually protect your characters (like, y'know, the Necromancers you need to make your army function), and you won't lose half of your killing power when one Morghast takes 4 wounds and croaks. The important thing to note here is that if you're going to pay upwards of 200 points for two big models, you DO NOT want them to sit back and do nothing in your back ranks. Why would you possibly want that? You can't protect casters with them because they're Monstrous Infantry. Letting them get shot to death is a waste of points. They can't really go in first because of Combat Resolution, and if they get stuck in combat with (for example) ten knights on the charge, those 8 wounds are going to evaporate pretty quickly. They're very vulnerable to Multiple Wounds weapons like Bolt Throwers, Catapults, and various heroes and monsters (unlike single-wound models) and their T5 isn't going to save them from being shot with spells. And, because a Caster can't join their unit to babysit them with Invocations, they're best used as a flanking defence unit. Where they will be outside of Invocation range and die. I don't like them. If you think it's a cool kit and want to get some, great, but I can't recommend them from a standpoint of tactical advice. Which is what we're talking about.

-Response: The Harbingers are 80 points per model, you cannot just round that to 100 because that is a 20 point difference, which becomes a 40 point difference if you take two, and 60 if you take 3, that is a huge difference. 160 points for 8 wounds and 10 attacks at high Strength high Toughness and some armour is fine by me. Yeah you could pit two Harbingers up against 10 man Grave Guard (which is a terrible thing to summon), pit them up against the Harbingers (or pretty much anyone barring zombies, and sometimes including them) and the Grave Guard are going to lose. You've given them Great Weapons so they'll strike second, and with only 10 in that unit they're going to lose that rank bonus and about half of their attacks before they've struck back, and without the attacks to cause enough wounds combat resolution will finish off the unit whereas Morghasts are Initiative 4, so they'll strike well ahead of most infantry units (and quite a few cavalry units who they're really good at killing), be able to kill large amounts of infantry, and the aura they make (combined with being near a BSB) mean they'll only be at a -2 by default when facing somebody with full ranks and a standard, which isn't too hard to make up if they charge and cause enough casualties, pit them up against cavalry and you've got a unit capable of both tearing apart the cavlary and breaking them. If you charge a standard cavalry unit you're going to be at +1 (+2 for the aura and charging, -1 for the enemy having a standard) as far as losing combat concerns you, before you even kill anything which will take away any rank bonus the enemy has, and they'll stay there longer than most things you can summon barring mass skeletons and zombies (who aren't going to kill nearly as much). --Triacom

Grave Guard & Ld

Mr. Triacom, please stop disgracing your named accout and read BRB for a change.

1) you cannot use Shields when you fight with Halberds or Great Weapons, so no use in melee.

2) if you're fighting with hand weapons you're more likely to lose the combat because you just don't do enough damage.

3) even if you lose combat, you don't take any Leadership tests at all. You just take the number of wounds equal to how much you lost the combat by. Leadership doesn't come into play at all. Read rules for Unbreakable and Unstable in BRB, please.

• Yes I misread that, and I admit my mistake fully in the changelog when I edited other stuff (unrelated to Ld). Sorry about that, though I know you cannot use shields with Halberds or Great Weapons (and never said you could), at the time I recommended Grave Guard without the Great Weapons for the increase in armour and a parry save, yes dealing more wounds means you are less likely to lose combat, but taking less wounds also means you're less likely to lose combat and I've had Great Weapons swing both ways on that one. As far as experience goes I'd say Great Weapons don't help all that much compared to what you can save with the armour unless you're up against T4 (or higher) units (normally the tradeoff isn't worth it), and if you are up against those then Grave Guard will usually have higher Initiative anyway, which helps in prolonged combats. --Triacom

Vampires, Tomb Kings and Chariots

So I'd like to address this, it says in the "And The Tomb Kings Rode To War..." Rule that characters in a Tomb Kings army can join units of chariots, but does Tomb Kings change to Undead Legions like Nehekaran Undead changes to Undead? Because as written now it does not, and ironically would stop your Tomb Kings/Princes from joining as they are no longer part of a Tomb King Army. I've looked for a FAQ to clarify this and have not been able to find one, if anybody could clarify where it says that "And The Tomb Kings Rode To War..." Affects all chariots in an Undead Legions army that would be very helpful. --Triacom

That is an interesting question. I'd say for now Tomb Kings/Princes can join units because a) they are still listed with (TK) in Undead Legions list and still come from Tomb Kings book (after all, army books are still valid, Nagash just provides new list)

b) it is 100% intended, of course, that they can join

But the wording does prevent Coven Thrones from joining the unit, at least because Coven Throne lacks the "...And The Tomb Kings Rode to War" rule (i.e. it can be argued that only chariots with matching rules can join each other) Trillium (talk) 12:21, 1 November 2014 (UTC)