Talk:Warhammer 40,000/7th Edition Tactics/Deathwatch

Did the madmen actually make an army that people want? Saladofstones (talk) 18:26, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

• Yes, they did. Even GW listens to their players once in a while.

Just a shame the formations are rubbish.

Blackshield rules conundrum: does the special rule also double charge attacks? I've seen about 4 different arguments either way now

No, you never multiply after addition, even if it wasn't how it was supposed to work in the game, that isn't how real life math works. I'll break it down, if you charge into a fight where you can multiply attacks, here's what it looks like: 2X2+1. Even if we wrote it a little differently we'd get the same answer, 1+2X2, either way ending up with five at the end because in actual math you always multiply before you add. -- Triacom (talk) 20:02, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

That was my original position, and the one I think cleaves closest the the RAI and my preferred ruling. However the opposing arguments I've seen put forth that are interesting enough to examine is that the duty unto death wording just simply says "all" attacks, which in many other precursor cases (notably tyranids and other cases where models must give up "all" attacks for an alternate type, including BRB smash) includes bonus attacks from multiple weapons or charge bonuses. better wording for the rule might have been "doubles Base attacks" or something similar to clarify what the modifier is acting on.

First of all Black Shields don't have a rule that says 'Duty Onto Death', they have a rule that says 'Atonement Through Honour'. Secondly Atonement Through Honour does not say "all" attacks, it says "A model with this special rule doubles its attacks in the assault phase..." There's nothing there at all about doubling every kind of attack, only doubling the model's Attacks characteristic. -- Triacom (talk) 23:11, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

You jump to the conclusion here that the word attacks means attacks characteristic. The argument is that if it meant attacks characteristic or base attacks, it should have said thusly...

That's not jumping to a conclusion, whenever it says attacks, or strength, or toughness, or any stat in the characteristic profile, it always refers to the characteristic profile, and if it doesn't want to refer to the profile then it'll say so. To claim otherwise is to outright lie to try and gain yourself an advantage. -- Triacom (talk) 09:23, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

official errata clarifies that atonement through honor doubles the attacks characteristic.

Blackshields can buy Heavy Thunder Hammers.

You buy a Veteran a Heavy Thunder Hammer, then you make that Veteran a Blackshield. The end. I have no idea how this is hard for anyone to understand, and yes you do take steps into account when you make a list, because you're taking the step of making somebody a Blackshield first before they buy the Heavy Thunder Hammer, meaning you're being hypocritical about what you can/can't do and should/shouldn't do. Also the Heavy Thunder Hammer is listed before the Blackshield upgrade, the only reason somebody would think that you would need to upgrade to being a Blackshield first and then buy a Heavy Thunder Hammer is if they had no clue how English worked. -- Triacom (talk) 17:05, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

To be honest I was originally with the other guy until I saw that FAQ. I always used to consider Apothecaries and such, no longer veterans for the purposes of options but could still take "any model" gear rather than "veteran" gear, and so all my relevant models have been built with standard gear (to my disadvantage). After seeing that FAQ it came as a bit of a revelation, now I can stack gear on dudes, then upgrade them into something else as well. Maybe the issue is that some folks don't consider a "draft" FAQ as official amendments to the rules just yet, and so still think they can lawyer against them? --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 20:04, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

The FAQ was wrong, check the comments for that image, they took the Apothecary ruling back. As it stands Blackshields (and the sergeants) have their own stats entry and are currently not eligible for the heavy thunder hammer. As with the Apothecary, these separate entries override that whole pick order thing the other guy was on about since they are no longer vets. There will be a Deathwatch FAQ that could change it but we'll just have to see.

Where's your citation for Blackshields not being eligible? As I stated the upgrade is earlier than the Blackshield upgrade, and when you upgrade a Veteran to a Blackshield they already have the hammer. This means that RAW Blackshields never purchase any gear, ever. Also if you claim that there's no order in which you buy the upgrades and cannot pick an upgrade before another upgrade, you are lying, plain and simple, because right now you're claiming they become a Blackshield before they buy the upgrade (ie picking one upgrade before another). -- Triacom (talk) 06:18, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Also don't try to argue some bullshit about how they lose whatever upgrade they have when they get upgraded, by that logic they should lose all of their equipment since it never says specifically what Blackshields are armed with and only gives their statline. -- Triacom (talk) 06:20, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

I'll reiterate again. The order in which the upgrades are listed is only relevant when the authors are trying to limit a single model's loadout, as in "one model can take X, a different model can take Y". Otherwise it's irrelevant and is only a matter of visual design. As I said in my previous comment, I DID NOT upgrade a Veteran to a Black Shield before trying to hand him a HTH, instead I looked at your finished army list before the game and asked you "why does your Black Shield model there carries a HTH when only Veterans can carry it?". I would ask the same question if you handed your Biker a Lascannon. And I can counter-argue that a Veteran with a Heavy Thunder Hammer can also be considered a "unique" model with a semi-unique weapon, equal in power, price and importance to the squad to a Blackshield or a Watch Sergeant, and this is why you can either upgrade a rank-and-file Vet to carry a HTH in lieu of all of his other weapons or promote him to a character, in that order. But, again, the order in which you take upgrades is actually irrelevant — you do not note it down on the army list, nothing official suggests you can do that, and there are multiple examples (including SM Captains/Chapter Masters and Sergeants/Veteran Sergeants) where it is clear that what you are doing when upgrading a certain model is paying a points price to replace it with a different model with a different name and profile, that has the same basic wargear and rules as everyone in the squad (with their own unique starting wargear and special rules marked out as (Sergeant only) or (Black Shield only), or on the same line where they are upgraded), but a different access to wargear options, as it can only buy what is allowed for them specifically or for any model in their squad. You are free to replace an already geared up model with a different one, but you then indeed lose all of their bought wargear. GW confirms that:

Warhammer 40,000 Hey Folks, Whoops, we got one wrong there. For the last question on this page, the answer should be 'No'. Please refrain from cutting all the arms off your Apothecaries, they need them for their nartheciums. Q: Is it possible for an Apothecary to carry items from the Special Weapons and/or Melee Weapons lists (e.g. by a Veteran purchasing upgrades, and being subsequently upgraded to an Apothecary)? A: No. --91.219.223.113 06:25, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

What part of 'they're both upgrades on one veteran' is so hard to understand? If you ask why a Blackshield has a HTH you should get the same answer I gave, they're not mutually exclusive upgrades, and they're not model replacements, in effect the Blackshield upgrade is just another piece of equipment/a buyable special rule. Your argument would make sense if the rules said "replace one model with a Blackshield" but it doesn't, so I'll ask a different question, why does a veteran lose wargear if they're upgraded to a Blackshield? You claim that there's no order in which things are bought, however claiming that they lose the option because they're now a Blackshield is in fact claiming that you buy the Blackshield upgrade first since they're not specifically said to cancel each other out at all, and no you cannot claim the Blackshield is a unique model, and you know why? Once again it's because you are not replacing anybody. If you were, then you could claim that, however you're not. If you still cannot wrap your head around that, then here's another way to put it, a Blackshield is a Veteran who just purchased a specific upgrade, not an entirely separate model in the slightest, so a Blackshield with a HTH is in fact a Veteran with a HTH (ie Blackshields never buy gear, Veterans do, and they're all upgrades for Veterans and that should be reflected on lists appropriately). Next, you said there's no order to list building, and then send "Do X or Y in that order" so even by your own logic you have no argument, and lastly even if it wasn't possible for apothecaries, that doesn't mean it's impossible for Blackshields (different books are written by different people who don't have any clue what consistency means) and in one of their videos, a guy named Duncan built a Blackshield wielding a Heavy Thunder Hammer! You're literally telling the GW design team that they're building their own models wrong! -- Triacom (talk) 08:31, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Here's another thing, if upgrade sequencing doesn't exist, then what the fuck is this doing in the Dark Angels FAQ: "Q: Regarding upgrade sequences - can a Deathwing Terminator have a thunder hammer and storm shield, and a cyclone missile launcher? A: Yes - the Terminator may first replace all of its weapons with the thunder hammer and storm shield, and then, as one of a group of five models in the squad, take the cyclone missile launcher." So there we go, same type of deal since the only way to get TH/SS is for the model to replace all of its weapons, yet it can still be given another upgrade after, much like how here the model can be given one upgrade first, then a different upgrade second. -- Triacom (talk) 08:55, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

A Blackshield ceases to be a Veteran, just as an Apothecary ceases to be a Veteran, a Veteran Sergeant ceases to be a Sergeant, and a Heavy Weapons Team ceases to be two Guardsmen. This is supported by GW's own unoffical FAQ and by RAW. Where is it RAW? Right where it is explained how datasheets work:

"5. Unit Profile: This section will show the profiles of any models the unit can include. 6. Unit Type: This refers to the unit type rules in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules. For example, a unit may be classed as Infantry, Cavalry or Vehicle, which will subject it to a number of rules regarding movement, shooting, assaults, etc. 7. Unit Composition: This section shows the number and type of models that form the basic unit, before any upgrades are taken. 8. Wargear: This section details the weapons and equipment the models in the unit are armed with, many of which are described in more detail in the Appendix of this book. The cost for all the unit’s basic equipment is included in its points cost. 10. Special Rules: Any special rules that apply to models in the unit are listed here. Special rules that are unique to models in that unit are described in full here, whilst others are detailed either in the Appendix of this EPUB or in the Special Rules section of Warhammer 40,000: The Rules."

If a Black Shield was a Veteran model who merely purchased Duty unto Death, then it would say precisely so, but it is a different model that can be included in a Deathwatch Veteran unit in place of a Veteran model. And any model in that unit, including Veterans, Watch Sergeants and Black Shields can take Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, Special Weapons and Storm Shields. But Heavy Weapons are for Veterans only, Heavy Thunder Hammers are for Veterans only, and Xenophase Blades and Special Issue Wargear are for Watch Sergeants only. It is ONLY listed as an upgrade to a Veteran instead of a replacement because it is then easier to write. Spending 15 pts to upgrade a Veteran model to a Black Shield model is functionally equivalent to removing a 22 pts Veteran model from the unit, then adding a 37 pt Black Shield model to the same unit.

And by the way, Duncan Rhodes is not a member of GW's Design Team, he's their painter.

Regarding Deathwing. Yes, they FAQ'd that. No, you cannot take a Deathwing Command Squad, take a Cyclone Missile Launcher on one of the Deathwing Terminators, and then upgrade him to a Deathwing Apothecary, because then he ceases to be a Deathwing Terminator and hence cannot be given a CML. Confirmed by GW's unofficial HQ. What you have described is an exception.

If a Black Shield model was included as part of the basic unit like a Sergeant in a Tactical Squad, your argument would make no sense whatsoever, BTW. The end result is the same, though, both Black Shields and Sergeants are treated as not being Veterans or Space Marines respectively.

Again, the Black Shield is not buying the wargear, the Veteran is, and then he buys the Black Shield upgrade (as I said, the Black Shield never purchases any wargear) and in both exceptions that you wanted to point out, those were specific to Apothecaries, not any other models, just Apothecaries, and Black Shields are not Apothecaries and they are not separate models, saying they replace a Veteran is a flat out lie since that's very clearly not what the book says. Yes, if a Black Shield was included in the unit at the start then I wouldn't have an argument, however that's not what happened now is it? You know what I meant with Duncan, he's still a part of GW, meaning he has more say in what's legal than you do. Even if a Black Shield ceased to be a Veteran that wouldn't matter because their wargear still carries over and none of the rules you cite say that bought wargear doesn't carry over. GW has made it very clear there's a sequence to buying upgrades for a model, and the Black Shield upgrade happens to come after the others, end of story and you can stop assuming you know why the author wrote it like that because I'm very certain you are not Robin Cruddace or Phil Kelly, so every time you say 'The reason it was written like X is because Y' you are talking out of your ass. -- Triacom (talk) 09:56, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

I'll make this really simple, I want you to do one of the following:

• Show me where in the rules it says taking the Black Shield upgrade forces you to lose certain wargear you might have bought earlier.
• Show me where in the rules it says that upgrades in those lists are mutually exclusive (this also means things taking items from the melee weapons list and then the heavy weapons list).
• Show me where in the rules it says "May replace a Veteran with a Black Shield."
• Show me where in the rules it says "Black Shields cannot be armed with anything apart from items in the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, and/or Special Weapons lists."
• Show me where in the rules it says "Veterans who buy Heavy Thunder Hammers cannot be upgraded to Black Shields."

I want you to cite the rules directly, or post screenshots of those specific rules. If you are unable to do any of those, then you have no argument. -- Triacom (talk) 10:10, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

You are repeating yourself. There is zero difference between these:

-- May upgrade one Veteran to a Black Shield...15 pts

-- One Veteran may be upgraded to an Apothecary, taking a narthecium...15 pts

Absolutely none. Both Black Shield and Apothecary have their own, separate profiles listed on their respective units' profile lists. Both have their own model types, Infantry (Character). Both have their own special stuff (a narthecium and Duty unto Death). Both are separate models which are upgraded separately from any other models in the unit. The wording is the same, the RAW interpretation is the same, the unofficial FAQ says you cannot upgrade Apothecaries as Veterans in any Codex, nor does their wargear carry over. The book is clear. BRB, p. 9, "Characteristic profiles". "Every model in Warhammer 40,000 has a profile that lists the values of its characteristics". Same page, "Other Important Information". "In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in more depth on page 62. It might also have an additional save of some kind, representing any special armour or mystical protection it might have, it could be carrying one or more shooting or Melee weapons (pg 40) or it might have one or more special rules (pg 156)". A single model cannot be two models at once. A single model cannot buy wargear as one model and then use the profile and special rules of a different model. Nothing can be "carried over" because an army list is a static document. It lists all of your units, what models they are composed of, and what profile, wargear and special rules these models have. I do not care HOW have you arrived at your precise army composition, I only care that you have placed correct models with correct wargear and special rules into correct units. You are trying to field a unit, composed of 4 Veterans with standard gear and 1 Black Shield carrying a Heavy Thunder Hammer (look up Deathwatch: Overkill formations to see exactly what I mean). A Black Shield model is not permitted ANYWHERE to carry a HTH. If it is not explicitly permitted, it is prohibited. I do not need to give you any express prohibitions, it is YOU who needs to show me where in the rules you are allowed to do that. Show me where in the rules it says "A Black Shield can replace his weapons with a Heavy Thunder Hammer". Your ad hominems are very out of place here, nobody can say what is "legal" except an official document from GW and you did not provide any.

Also, pretty please, stop comparing apples to oranges. Upgrading a model so it becomes a different model and taking several weapons for the same model are not the same. There is no "sequence of upgrades", there is "you can chuck a CML on top of any non-medic Terminator because why not" and "sorry, we were too lazy, we meant "replace power fist and stormbolter" not "replace his weapons", so knock yourself out".

You're right, I am repeating myself however there is a difference between those. The reason I'm repeating myself is because you ignored what I wrote and went on an unrelated tangent, citing rules that didn't help or hinder any argument at all, and the difference between those is that the Apothecary was FAQ'd specifically to be disallowed from purchasing upgrades, and the Black Shield hasn't had that happen yet. If we went purely off the Codex then the same response could be leveled at both. Both of them are upgrades, both of them have separate profiles listed, and yet a Black Shield is not an Apothecary, so what happens in a FAQ that affects an Apothecary does not affect a Black Shield. It might be RAI that a Black Shield shouldn't have a Heavy Thunder Hammer, but as I've spelled out there is nothing in the Deathwatch codex that prevents him from taking it and citing FAQ's of other Codices only helps when you want to bring up universal rules, ie establishing there is a sequence in which you buy upgrades for a model and this also means that what affects one model does not mean it affects an entirely different model in exactly the same way since it's never stated to work like that. Now let's break this down: A single model cannot buy wargear as one model and then use the profile and special rules of a different model. *CITATION NEEDED. Nothing you cited says that a model cannot buy wargear as one model then not use that wargear if they're upgraded to a higher profile, and once again Black Shields do not replace Veterans, they're an upgrade! In effect a Black Shield isn't two models because of the fact that it's an upgrade for an existing model, they never replace anything, the Veteran is the same Veteran, they simply use a new profile because the profile used does not determine whether or not somebody is/isn't a new model, and if you really think that, I'd have loved to see your reaction to Orikan the Diviner's ability to switch profiles when he first came out (no he didn't become a new model when he did that). The army list is a static document, with a specific procedure for making it including a sequence for buying upgrades which was established in the Dark Angels FAQ, yet for some reason that's a universal thing you're intent on ignoring. "A Black Shield model is not permitted ANYWHERE to carry a HTH." Prove it, show me specifically where in the book it says this, upload a screenshot or copy/paste the text, because once again you're bringing up unrelated rules and then drawing conclusions that the rules you cite have nothing to do with. " If it is not explicitly permitted, it is prohibited." PROVE IT. Where in the rules does it say this, and where in the rules does it explicitly state that Black Shields have to throw away their Heavy Thunder Hammers if they bought them when they were still Veterans? I've shown you how Black Shields are allowed to get them, though I'll go over it one more time. When you make a list there is a sequence for buying upgrades, because GW says there's a sequence. If you claim there isn't a sequence, you are either unaware that there is one, or you are lying. These upgrades are not lost unless explicitly stated that they're lost (trading 'all' melee weapons for a Heavy Thunder Hammer for example, so you could have bought a Xenophase Blade then choose to give it up) and the Black Shield upgrade's purchased after the Heavy Thunder Hammer upgrade. There you go, that's entirely legal and is supported by GW. Also I like how you say nobody can say what is or isn't legal, while preaching about what is and isn't legal, much like how you keep claiming the Black Shield replaces a model (which is still a lie) and how you're claiming the Black Shield is the one buying the hammer, even though that's literally impossible (it's always bought before the Black Shield upgrade, not after). Before you argue again, explain with concrete proof how the Black Shield is a new model, because using a new profile doesn't make something a new model, using different wargear doesn't make something a new model, the only thing that makes a model into a new model is when the rules explicitly state Replace X with Y and the Deathwatch Codex doesn't do that! -- Triacom (talk) 11:11, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

I also believe you're confusing what actually makes the model a model. A characteristics profile is something that a model has, just like how a model will have wargear and/or special rules, it does not make the model a model, and nothing in the rules prevents a model from switching from one profile to another, while still remaining the same model. A model can swap around wargear and remain the same model (see pretty much every Codex), a model can swap profiles and remain the same model (see Orikan the Diviner), a model can swap rules and remain the same model (see any Codex where you can choose one of several rules), the only time it can't remain the same model is when the book explicitly tells you to replace the model. Simple as that. -- Triacom (talk) 11:18, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

You know what, because I don't want you to use it again I'll break down why your conclusion from the BRB has nothing to do with what's stated in it: "Every model in Warhammer 40,000 has a profile that lists the values of its characteristics." It does not say this is what makes the model what it is, it says that a profile is something a model has. "In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in more depth on page 62. It might also have an additional save of some kind, representing any special armour or mystical protection it might have, it could be carrying one or more shooting or Melee weapons (pg 40) or it might have one or more special rules (pg 156)" Here it establishes more things that a model has, it never says that any one of these things is what makes the model a model, it also never says that changing anything listed here turns that model into an entirely new model, nor does it say that changing any of these things will result in one model being two models. By your logic a Captain would lose all wargear options the second he put on a Jump Pack because now he's no longer Infantry, meaning that he's combining the profile of an Infantry Captain with the troop type of Jump Infantry, and therefore becoming two models at the same time! -- Triacom (talk) 11:24, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

No. Apothecary wasn't specifically FAQ'd to specifically disallow that, since RAW you couldn't do that anyway, the FAQ merely served as a clarification for the whole "upgrade a model" mechanic of changing a given unit's model composition. I say again, Warhammer 40,000 is a permissive ruleset. It only lists what you are allowed to do, it doesn't prohibit many things directly. If it does not permit you to field certain models with certain weapons, then you may not do so, that's it, or otherwise we would all be balls deep in Reaper Chainsword-toting Terminators or some other bullshit that is "not prohibited".

The reason why nothing transfers is because a name, a unit type, a profile, wargear list and special rules are all merely properties of a particular model. You can't have wargear without a model carrying it. You can't have a model name without a model carrying it. You can't have a model's profile without a model it belongs to. And all models get to keep everything they have unless something takes it away, true. But what you are confused about is the nature of a unit and its datasheet. You don't buy a unit first and then fiddle with its models, upgrading one and giving weapons to another. No, instead you take all your models you want to form an army with, and then assemble them into squads, units, FOC slots, formations, Decurions ad nauseam. Therefore, no model can be anything but itself when you are trying to include it in your army list. A Black Shield model, represented as a plastic Deathwatch Veteran with a shoulder pad painted black, is not and wasn't ever a Veteran model. If you observe WYSIWYG, and this model also has dual Lightning Claws, then it never had a bolter and a close combat weapon, despite them being the "base weapons" of a hypothetical Black Shield on the Deathwatch Veterans datasheet. If you want to include your existing Black Shield model in a specific Deathwatch Veterans squad, you just tally up the points cost for his inclusion over an ordinary Veteran model and his weapons, and your unit composition goes from having 5 Veterans to 4 Veterans and 1 Black Shield. It's not 4.5 Veterans and 0.5 Black Shield, it's not 5 Veterans and 1 Black Shield, it's not 4 Veterans and 1 Veteran (Black Shield), it's 4 Veterans and 1 Black Shield. It is not 4 Veterans and 1 Veteran with +1 WS and Duty unto Death. It's not an upgrade, it's just a stronger model that you need to pay more for to include over a standard version. You don't get 5 Veterans and then proceed to replace a Veteran with a Black Shield, that is correct, you simply take a more expensive unit of 4 Veterans and 1 Black Shield in your army. And if you don't see that a Black Shield is permitted to carry, say, a grav-cannon, or a chainfist, or a heavy thunder hammer, then you can't have him carrying those, peroid. Even if one of his squad-mates is permitted to carry one, even if the model he was taken instead of was permitted to carry one. There is no upgrade sequence during army selection, you simply take models up until X points limit, obeying certain limitations.

By my logic a Captain loses all his bought bling when you replace him with a Chapter Master. Chapter Master has a different name, different profile, and different starting wargear. By chance, he has the same selection of wargear as a Captain, because the datasheet keeps repeating "Captain or Chapter Master can have X". Also by chance, the datasheet named Captain can actually permit you to field a model named Chapter Master.

With Orikan and battlefield transformations, what matters is continuity. Orikan, when he transforms, continues to use the same model, just with a different profile. A Chaos Lord transforming into an Unnameable Beast is replaced completely. Bran Redmaw transforming into his Wulfen form mixes it, he gets to keep some wargear and special rules, but his name, profile and unit type change. But you don't transform anything when you are composing an army.

Show me where in the Codex it said the Apothecary wasn't allowed to do that. Show me, and do it by uploading a screenshot or copy/pasting text from the book itself, because if you can't, then the FAQ specifically disallowed it (it's not the first time they did something like this). Yes, 40k lists what you are allowed to do, however if it doesn't list something that doesn't make that thing illegal because it's literally impossible for the book to prepare you for every scenario and that should be obvious by reading the FAQ's, and also 40k's most important rule and if you have evidence to the contrary, post it through screenshot or from copy/pasted text, because as of yet you haven't shown any hard evidence to back up your points. "If it does not permit you to field certain models with certain weapons, then you may not do so" You've yet to show where it says "Black Shields may not use Heavy Thunder Hammers." Therefore the book doesn't lock you out of fielding them. "A Black Shield model, represented as a plastic Deathwatch Veteran with a shoulder pad painted black, is not and wasn't ever a Veteran model." Here's where you're entirely wrong, because you're ignoring the sequence of buying upgrades. I'm not going to explain that again, read my earlier comment on why stating what you just said is a flat out lie. Also nothing in any book ever said that purchasing upgrades for a unit means they never had their previous wargear, forget the 7th edition Codices, no Codex and no BRB regardless of edition ever said that, you're quite literally making it up. Next up, it's never stated that Black Shields aren't permitted to use Heavy Thunder Hammers, it says that only Veterans may buy them, and I've already gone over many times why Veterans can buy them and then become Black Shields after, so I'm not doing it again. Finally your logic is incorrect, because despite gaining a different profile and name, you do not replace the model of the captain with the model of a Chapter Master, therefore they're still the same model. It's no different to Orikan aside from happening before a game starts rather than during it, and you're only helping my points by saying that a Chaos Lord transformation specifically tells you to replace the model. -- Triacom (talk) 12:18, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

> You've yet to show where it says "Black Shields may not use Heavy Thunder Hammers." Show me where it says "Terminators may not wield Reaper Chainswords", and maybe I'll restrain myself from using D-weapons on them. Okay? And it seems that I can field a Terminator Captain in Cataphractii Terminator armour on a bike in your games. There is nothing prohibiting me from doing that, amirite?

Also, your upgrade sequence is completely made up. Show me the rules guiding what comes before what, which apply to every Codex in the game.

Firstly, nowhere are Reaper Chainswords purchasable or even wearable options for Terminators or anyone who can be upgraded to a Terminator, however if Reaper Chainswords were an option that would be entirely legal, though your bike example is wrong because the rules state that Captains wearing Terminator Armour are expressly prohibited from riding a bike, and Cataphractii Terminator Armour is still Terminator Armour. Secondly the rules guiding what comes first and what comes second can be found in your high-school English class, here's a refresher, you start at the top of a page and work your way to the bottom, reading left to right. Even if you want to claim that it doesn't come into play in 40k the Dark Angels FAQ proves you wrong on that point, as it's stated that you can buy another weapon after buying a weapon option that says "Replace all your weapons with X". -- Triacom (talk) 12:47, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Okay then. Look at me. I take a Space Marine Captain. I start at the top of the page and skip right to Special Issue Wargear. I then choose a Bike for him. Nothing prohibits me from doing that, right? Right. Then, following that, working my way to the bottom, I choose to take Terminator armour for my Captain. Well, there's this pesky rule "May not be taken by models wearing Terminator armour.", but I took the bike before the Captain was wearing Terminator armour, so it's all right. Nothing prevents me from taking Terminator armour after I took the bike, after all. Cool?

If it's not cool, then look at me again. I take a Deathwatch Veteran Squad. I start at the top of the page and skip right to Heavy Thunder Hammers. I choose one for a single Veteran. Nothing prohibits me from doing that, right? Right. Then, following that, working my way to the bottom, I choose to take a Black Shield upgrade for my Veteran. Well, there's this pesky rule for heavy thunder hammers, "Any Veteran may replace his weapons with a heavy thunder hammer", but I took that upgrade before the Veteran became a Black Shield, so it's all right. Nothing prevents me from taking a Black Shield upgrade after I took the heavy thunder hammer, after all. Cool?

Actually it's that sort of logic that has people arguing that Cataphractii Terminator Armour isn't Terminator Armour which is why they're trying to claim that Cataphractii Captains can ride bikes. Fortunately however the Space Marine book has two lists of options for the Captain to choose from, one where the Captain is wearing Terminator Armour, and the other where he is not though I'll admit it doesn't really say the lists are mutually exclusive. If it was listed as only one list, then yes you'd be right, the Captain in Terminator Armour would be able to ride a bike and if you actually want to rules laywer it, then as written in the Codex itself, yes the Captain actually could take both Terminator Armour and the Bike because the Bike is bought first. -- Triacom (talk) 13:08, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Well then it's settled, when people will start taking ordinary, codex Terminator armour on characters riding bikes and it is universally accepted as logically sound and in no way completely bonkers because dude, then I will allow my opponent to take HTHs on Black Shields. The logic is the same. --91.219.223.113 13:11, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

I take it you're not familiar with rules lawyers at all? These are the people who do things that are not technically illegal or are not technically prohibited because it gives them an advantage (I've played against a lot of them). It's crazy, but still technically legal even if you don't like it because there's nothing in the rules that says they can't do that and some of the things they argue are completely batshit, and you know what? You don't have to like it, however if you choose not to play a game against them, just know that on a purely technical level, they're not in the wrong, they're just extremely poor sports for trying to do it in the first place. Incidentally in a previous edition, you could have a Callidus Assassin wearing Terminator Armour riding a Bike disguise herself as a grot (in terms of lore she'd get the armour and bike after transforming back to normal), so it's not like 40k cares too much for what is/isn't ridiculous. -- Triacom (talk) 13:21, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

This is why it is firmly established that Warhammer 40k has a permissive ruleset with conjunctive prohibitions and continuous validation. You can only do what is expressly allowed, if one thing prohibits something then you can't do it at all, and if at any point there is a contradiction in the rules, then you first try to resolve it by applying Codex>>Rulebook>>Player chain, then you try to modify your decision so the conflict disappears, and as a last resort roll a 4+.

Unfortunately 40k does not have a permissive ruleset in the context you are providing. I asked before for evidence that it did and you provided none, so I'll ask again, where is it? Like I said what they do isn't technically prohibited because there's no rule that prohibits these kinds of things specifically, and therefore there's no contradiction. It's the whole reason there's any RAW vs RAI debate at all, I'm honestly surprised by the fact that you seem to be fairly in the dark about this. -- Triacom (talk) 13:44, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

The actual reason your approach fails is that you assume there's an order to going through the options in the Codex (there isn't any, it's "take option 1 and/or take option 2 and/or take option 3" not "accept/decline option 1 then accept/decline option 2 then accept/decline option 3", as the lists of available options are bulleted, not numbered, there is no indication whatsoever that you should read them strictly in order, and you can easily mix them up, e.g. "One Space Marine may take a weapon from the Special Weapons list; another Space Marine may take a weapon from the Heavy Weapons list" is totally equivalent to "One Space Marine may take a weapon from the Heavy Weapons list; another Space Marine may take a weapon from the Special Weapons list") and an order to selecting options themselves (again, there isn't, you may not select mutually exclusive options in any circumstances, the Dark Angels FAQ is an exception because of faulty blanket "exchange all weapons" phrasing and is not applied universally), and you're wrong on both counts. Also, rules lawering is based on the whole "if it's not prohibited, it's allowed" argument, which is fallacious, since we're playing a game and any game by definition is a closed system where everyone temporarely obeys a specific set of rules to impose limitations on themselves and make the activity intellectually or physically taxing and hence enjoyable. It's not real world, where you get to do whatever unless it's forbidden by law, it's a game world, where everyone agrees to only act in accordance with the chosen set of rules and not deviate from it except where necessary. Everyone plays like I have described, but it seems some people need a FAQ to clarify how English and games work. --91.219.223.113 06:28, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

If there's no order, why did they specify there's an order in the Dark Angels FAQ? The question specifically asks how upgrade sequencing works in that context, yet you seem to be ignoring it. I think it's very clear there since they provided the context, but let's also look at it here, can a Marine take any other weapon alongside a Heavy Thunder Hammer, and if not, then why? The Deathwing can with exactly the same restriction, yet it's obvious here that shouldn't be the case. Also the rules cannot account for every situation that might occur, nor do they account for terrible writing/planning as far as their actual wording goes, which means that it's easy to come across things that by definition are not prohibited by the game, and you can't say they are because the rules are just that iffy, to the point that the argument looks like it actually is allowed, let's say you model a trygon lunging forward to get a better cover save for it, or build models on smaller/larger base sizes to help with getting them in combat or help them avoid blast/template weapons. In an earlier edition, bikes could fire as many weapons on the model as they had models driving them, but nothing said how many marines were on each bike, so technically you could model them all with 4-8 Marines hanging off each just for the hell of it (and fire at least one bonus weapon). Nothing in the rules says you cannot do that, there's nothing saying it's allowed, nothing saying it's prohibited (if you claim that they can't have more than 1 Marine per bike you might as well claim that they can't have any Marines on them since the bike's are never stated as to how many Marines they're carrying), and nothing in the rules says you have to build the models with the items that come in the boxes, so the only reason you'd do that is if you're following after the unwritten rule of using the base size provided, when it is by no means forced on you to do so. -- Triacom (talk) 08:30, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

Show me another example where you are allowed to sequence upgrades as in the Dark Angels FAQ. They did not say the sequence matters, they simply said you are allowed to take CML with TH/SS, it isn't a general ruling, and in fact on the very same page they said an Apothecary can't take any other upgrades, nor can you upgrade an Apothecary before promoting him. In all other cases all upgrades taken by a model in no particular order simply form its set of wargear with which it deploys on the table. It simply must be internally consistent and obey all restrictions (you can't have anything not listItalic texted as an available upgrade, you can't have a Jump Pack and a Bike, you can't have more than 2-3 weapons at any time etc.), it's not ordered and never was. And no, you can't have any weapons alongside a Heavy Thunder Hammer, since it replaces all of your weapons, but the wargear tables are explicitly worded "replace boltgun, bolt pistol or a Melee weapon with the following", not "take a weapon". Either way, you either lose all your weapons and can't exchange them for something else or do exchange them for something else and then promptly lose your upgrades. And the situation with the Black Shield is accounted for; if he and Watch Sergeant were allowed to take Heavy Thunder Hammers, it wouldn't be restricted to Veterans in the first place. It would simply say "Alternatively, any model can replace all of their weapons with a Heavy Thunder Hammer...30 pts". But it doesn't, and not because the Codex writers missed this incredibly powerful combo. It's not in this "grey area" of uncertainty, the wording is clear, if you want to carry a HTH you have to be a Veteran, and vice versa, only Veterans can carry HTHs, because in the end the upgrade order does not matter, you simply list who has what, just look at any Formations with pre-determined wargear.

Oh I'm sorry, does that example not count because you don't like it? If upgrade sequencing wasn't a thing, why didn't they say so? Anyway, here's another couple of examples: In Forgeworld's Horus Heresy series you can upgrade a Praetor with or without Terminator Armour, and have to decide if you're using it or not before you start buying other upgrades. This is also the same in the regular Space Marine book, if there wasn't upgrade sequencing, there'd be no notes on buying terminator armour before other upgrades. Same with the Librarians in the Space Marine book, buying upgrades doesn't all happen at the same time, you choose to buy the Terminator Armour first, and only then does the Terminator Specific options become unlocked. Even in the Deathwatch book they follow this, you have to upgrade a Marine to being a Sergeant before they have access to certain gear. If all the upgrades happened at the same time then they could never buy the gear since they'd technically remain Veterans until after the list was made and the game was started. If you try to claim they become Sergeants/Blackshields the second they buy the upgrade, then congrats, you just ruined your own argument because that's also upgrade sequencing, and this has been true in the game for a very long time now (look at older Codices, you can find examples where it tells you somebody who bought X may also buy Y, which would be impossible to do if there wasn't a sequence), in short upgrade sequencing has been in the game for a very long time now. Incidentally the Deathwing combo also says "replace all weapons" so why doesn't that situation apply to them if there isn't upgrade sequencing, and how is it that you know what the game devs did/didn't miss when writing this Codex? The Codex lists ammunition with a profile that is literally impossible to use, so unless you're Phil Kelly/Robin Cruddace you have no idea why it was written like that or what was a mistake/what wasn't a mistake. -- Triacom (talk) 15:31, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

It's not sequencing. You merely have to take Terminator armour along with any items from the appropriate tables, otherwise you may not take these items. This does not mean "first, take Terminator armour, then, take X", it means "if you take Terminator armour, you can also take a thunder hammer for 15 pts, and you are forbidden from taking some other items". It's parallel, not sequential. Same goes for Deathwatch. If your model is a Sergeant and has a xenophase blade, then it's legal to field it. If you accidentally missed the Sergeant upgrade, then it's not legal to field it. You always check only the final unit compositions, but it is convenient to present all these options as sequential as if you're shopping for gear, instead of parallel as if you're trying to balance your points budget on a double-entry spreadsheet, so it's easier for players to select them correctly. Presentation does not affect the actual mechanics, though, they are parallel, and you do not "buy" any upgrades, you simply field models, each of which costs a certain amount of points depending on its rules. --91.219.223.113 12:45, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

And I will repeat again. The Deathwing was FAQ'd specifically to allow that. This doesn't mean anything for our discussion (another Codex) or for the game in general (it's not in a Rulebook FAQ). I would even say that it's still prohibited to take a CML on a Deathwatch Assault Terminator, even if there is a relevant ruling for another army. An impossible-to-use profile is a redundancy, not a mistake, so I don't know why you bring it up here. RAW you can't take a HTH on a Black Shield, RAI it's too powerful of a combination so it's very plausible that its wording is intentional and you can't really argue it was certainly a mistake or an omission and we should just house-rule that. But if GW releases an official Deathwatch FAQ that says, "no you actually can take a HTH on a Black Shield", then all right, it's allowed. --91.219.223.113 12:58, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

As a further example of how upgrade characters really work, look at the Space Wolf Codex and its use of Wolf Guard Pack Leaders. It's painfully obvious that the options allowed for ordinary Grey Hunters and for their WGPL are very different. It's quite obvious to any 40k player that you can't put a Wolf Standard and a plasmagun on the WGPL, because he is not a Grey Hunter. You can't take a heavy bolter, a sniper rifle, and a camo cloak on a Wolf Scouts' WGPL, because he is not a Wolf Scout. It's further quite obvious that he does not have Scout Armour nor the three marked Special Rules, as these are only for Wolf Scouts, and a Wolf Guard Pack Leader is not a Wolf Scout. And, in a Wolf Guard squad, where their WGPL is not an upgrade character, but is still a separate model, he can still take all the options. No sequencing involved whatsoever. --91.219.223.113 13:18, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Doing one upgrade before another upgrade can be done isn't a sequence? Do you have any idea what a sequence is? Yes it does translate to first taking Terminator Armour then buying the upgrades, just like in the Dark Angels book you first exchange all of your weapons for another set, then can buy additional weapons on top of that, to say it doesn't happen is to argue directly against what they stated in the FAQ. The Deathwing also specifically wasn't FAQ'd to allow that because they don't say it only applies to the Deathwing, it's a general ruling, unlike Apothecaries where they specifically say it applies only to Apothecaries. "If you take terminator armour, you can also take X" Means you buy one upgrade, then another one right after! It doesn't matter how you word it you're still having to buy one upgrade first and then another one second, and you want another example? Master Crafting weapons goes the same way! You can only choose to Master Craft something after you buy it, to say you don't is to completely ignore what it says in the rules. You always check more than the final unit compositions, otherwise the Deathwing bit wouldn't be legal. An impossible to use profile isn't a mistake? How? I brought it up to point out that the book is not well written in the slightest. RAW you haven't proved yet you can't take a HTH on a Black Shield. For the record I'm certain the FAQ will say you can't, however for now it's not illegal. Wolf Guard Pack Leaders can have this exact same argument leveled against them as well. Once again if you're not supposed to buy in sequence, why does the Dark Angels FAQ say armies buy in sequence? If it's really unique to the Dark Angels, prove it. Upload a screenshot or copy-paste text to prove your point. -- Triacom (talk) 21:44, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

You are talking out of your ass.

Codex: Dark Angels FAQs, First Draft, page 6 of 7:

"Regarding upgrade sequences — can a Deathwatch Terminator have a thunder hammer and a storm shield, and a cyclone missile launcher?"

Where the fuck did you find a "general ruling"? It only applies to Deathwing Terminators from the Codex: Dark Angels, they are allowed to do this one thing. And GW never said anything about upgrade sequences — it was the question's author. GW merely agreed that you can do this, for some reason, even though it contradicts their own rules. It's a Draft, though, it's not official yet. Why do I need to prove it is unique if it is specifically uploaded under a Dark Angels FAQ and doesn't have any clause whatsoever that might even hint at it being a general ruling? Yes, it is really unique to Dark Angels until said otherwise. Only they could mix and match different types of Terminators in a single squad (before the release of the Deathwatch codex), only they are allowed to put a huge missile rack on top of a walking tank with a tower shield and a giant hammer.

If you postulate that a Dark Angels ruling affects the whole game, then I counter with the Apothecary ruling.

Q: Is it possible for an Apothecary to carry items from the Special Weapons and/or Melee Weapons lists (e.g. by a Veteran purchasing upgrades, and being subsequently upgraded to an Apothecary)? A: No.

So, in the Space Marine FAQ there can be no sequencing upgrades, it's a general ruling, it affects the whole game, you can't do that. Problem? It's either the Dark Angels and Space Marines rulings are separate, or you get a conflict, or there is no seqencing, DA can do what they can do, and you can't put unsanctioned wargear on upgraded models.

You don't have to buy Terminator armour first, then something else. I can buy a thunder hammer for 15 pts first, then buy Terminator armour second, and it will be legal, because order does not matter, and you will never see what did I buy first, and what second, you will only ever see a Terminator with a thunder hammer in an army list and as a miniature.

Let's look at Master-crafted then. "Master Artisans: During army selection, each Salamanders character may upgrade one of his weapons (even one purchased as an upgrade, but not a Chapter Relic) to have the Master-crafted special rule." So if your Captain's army list entry has a master-crafted weapon in it, that he is otherwise permitted to carry under his datasheet's restrictions, and is not a Chapter Relic, then he is legal to field. Same for Grey Knights, if a Justicar has a MC weapon and he also purchased an appropriate upgrade, then he's legal to field. No sequences involved, you just check the army list. Army selection is a single step, as always.

Well yes I DO say that the Deathwing bit wouldn't be legal, because you only check the final unit compositions! This is exactly what I said! It is only legal because it is specifically allowed under FAQ! Jesus.

RAW a Black Shield model is not a Veteran model and is not allowed to carry a Heavy Thunder Hammer. RAW a Wolf Guard Battle Leader is not a Grey Hunter and is not allowed to carry special weapons. RAW a Space Marine Sergeant is not a Space Marine and is not allowed to carry special weapons. RAW an Apothecary is not a Veteran and is not allowed to change his weapons at all. RAW you are not allowed to have characters wearing Terminator armour on a Space Marine bike. Those are the rules, if you don't agree with them, then houserule. --91.219.223.113 06:43, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

The Apothecary ruling is said specifically to apply to apothecaries, the Dark Angel question was a general question about the overall rules of the game using the Deathwing as an example. If they worked exactly the same we wouldn't have to different outcomes for them both, and therefore you cannot apply both to one model, not to mention a Black Shield is obviously not an Apothecary, so already nothing that affects Apothecaries specifically will affect a Black Shield. You want to know "Where the fuck did you find a "general ruling"?" Well it's simple, you quoted it: "Regarding upgrade sequences..." It's right there, that right there states there are upgrade sequences in the game, it's what the question is actually about and I'm not sure how you missed that since you'd have to type it out. Obviously GW can and likely will say that Black Shields cannot use a HTH but as of yet they have not, and you cannot just look at another FAQ which says one specific model can/can't do something and then claim that applies to all models that don't share the same name, unit or equipment. I also fail to see how you're convinced you can apply Master-crafted to a weapon you haven't bought yet, since even in your own description it happens second. RAW I've already explained how a Black Shield can by a HTH and I've explained sequencing, you've even quoted proof that sequencing exists, so why are you still arguing against it? You say "Well yes I DO say that the Deathwing bit wouldn't be legal, because you only check the final unit compositions!" But where's your proof that's what is supposed to happen? -- Triacom (talk) 09:03, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

I'll throw you a bone here, why don't you upload a screenshot, or type out text and list the page in the rules where it says that there is no sequencing or that you only look at the final compositions of an army list? So far you've just been claiming that's what you're supposed to do without explaining where it says that. -- Triacom (talk) 09:06, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

No. The Apothecary ruling asked whether a Veteran can buy weapons and then be upgraded to an Apothecary, "keeping" them. GW said no, you can't keep them, nor can Apothecary buy any further upgrades. This is a general question about the overall rules of the game, regarding similar character upgrades. The Dark Angels question, on the other hand, asked whether you can add a CML on top of an Assault Terminator (again, the "upgrade sequences" bit was made up by the person who asked that), and GW has decided that the CML is an exception, as it's a top-mounted "addon", not a hand-held weapon, so exchanging the starting hand-held weapons of a Terminator (i.e. Power Fist and Storm Bolter) for twin claws or TH/SS should not impact his ability to take this addon. It is only allowed because of the nature of the Cyclone Missile Launcher. It is tangentially related to the question of whether you can first take one option and then a second one, but GW did not speak in general terms there; they did not say "Yes, as when selecting wargear you can take one option first and then a different option afterwards", they said "you can first exchange his weapons, then take a CML". The SM Apothecary ruling, on the other hand, is a flat "No". Meaning you can't do that in general, you can't take wargear on one model, then upgrade that model and keep the wargear. The DA Apothecaries ruling went into some more detail, saying that an Apothecary simply can't buy any upgrades. Now, how an Apothecary would even able to buy any upgrades, if there are none which mention him or "any model" in any Command Squad datasheet? It's because any upgrades you buy, you buy all at the same time, so if you bought a Power Fist for a Veteran, then upgraded the Veteran to an Apothecary, it ought to be equivalent to buying a Power Fist for an Apothecary, which is precisely what is not allowed by definition and by the FAQ. Otherwise, their wording doesn't even make sense. Well, there you have it.

The proof of how army selection works can be seen in BRB, p. 117.

THE FORCE ROSTER

Write down the details of the models that make up your army, which units belong to which Detachments (pg. 118), which Detachment is your Primary Detachment, and which model is the army's Warlord (pg. 124). This written record is known as your army's force roster, and you must keep it to hand while you play the game. To keep things fair, you must always allow your opponent to read your force roster before a game if they wish to do so.

So, what do we see here? Exactly. You simply write down the list of models and associated details (their unit compositions, profiles, type, special rules, wargear, etc.), and which Detachments they belong to, then present it to your opponent so he can check everything is on order and get to know your army. There is no choice, selection, sequencing or anything else involved, just as I am saying. And if a model has an inappropriate item of wargear, or can't belong to a specific Detachment, or there's something else wrong with your force roster, then it is unfair or illegal and you should fix it before continuing. --91.219.223.113 09:46, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Been a bit since I was busy with work, so let's get to this now. I'm not going to repeat the same arguments, so I'm just going to demonstrate why you have no proof for your arguments and give an ultimatum rather than run this argument in circles:

• Yeah, the apothecary ruling said that an apothecary cannot have the weapons, I didn't deny this, I said it had nothing to do with Black Shields and so far nothing you've posted has proven that it has anything to do with Black Shields. "This is a general question about the overall rules of the game..." Bullshit. That question was specifically asked for apothecaries, not anyone other than apothecaries. If it was a general question, then that means when they ask if Shrike can join units without Infiltrate (making them Infiltrate with his Infiltrate) and they said yes, then according to you that would apply to all characters with Infiltrate, even though the question is very obviously about Shrike.
• If the upgrade sequence had nothing to do with the game then they wouldn't have included that in the FAQ, they would have just stated "Can X buy Y after Z?" You're completely talking out of your ass with the missile launcher, "all weapons" means "all weapons", it does not mean "all weapons that a model is carrying in their hands". Yes GW didn't explicitly say that, however the question wasn't actually about the missile launcher, it was about the upgrade sequence since it starts with "Regarding upgrade sequencing..." So they don't have to explicitly say in their answer that upgrade sequencing exists.
• "The SM Apothecary ruling, on the other hand, is a flat "No". Meaning you can't do that in general..." BULLSHIT. That means you cannot do it on Apothecaries because Apothecaries were the only model used in that question and in that answer.
• "Write down the details of the models that make up your army..." At which point does it say there's no upgrade sequence or say that you shouldn't keep track of the upgrade sequence? If something's important enough that you buy one thing first and then another thing separate, you should keep track of that appropriately. For example, if you master-craft something, you don't just write "master-crafted" somewhere on the model, you write "master-crafted" as an upgrade for the item that you bought it for.

So what do we have here? You still have not done anything that I've asked, you have not provided a shred of hard proof to the contrary and you've continued drawing conclusions from either unrelated sources, or misread paragraphs. Do us both a favour and wait for them to release the FAQ where they state Black Shields cannot take the hammer. -- Triacom (talk) 21:37, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

Tactics and Stratagems to kick alien ass

For the sake of FUN and fluff, I suggest we create a section dedicated to how the Deathwatch can deal with the xenos armies. It will make an interesting tactica section for the reader. Example:

• Eldar

• Purging Knife Ears is tricky. Deathwatch are fucking slow, which means you have to hit them hard immediately and either cripple their transports, or kill enough of their fast units that you can manage the rest of their force later. Elves must be fought with alpha strike and air support, so load up on drop pods and Corvus Blackstars. Furor kill Teams, and Dominatus Kill Teams should be your go to formations to fuck up their precious Aspect hosts and Jetbikes.

• Things to remember

• Shoot them to death: Your stalkers and regular boltguns will drop more Elves than the power weapons ever will. Even Wraithguard feel the pain from mass hellfire, and Stalker-shot vengeance rounds. Plus, you'll meet if not outrange Jetbikes and their fucking cannons.
• Frag-Cannons are overkill, except when they are not:Frag-cannons are the second best weapon for killing WraithKnights after Grav, and four of them is almost enough to drop one in a single turn of shooting, but beware: Frag-Cannons are expensive, and units toting them will become priority 1 for your opponent.

End example/

Thoughts?

I'll include little bits for Orks, Tau, Necrons, and Tyranids. In-fact. Most of the post will start with 'How to' on Necrons sense I play them and know their weaknesses.