Talk:Warhammer 40,000/7th Edition Tactics/Genestealer Cults

Wait why aren't tyranids battle brothers with cults? I get that these guy are just fodder for the spawning machine but really? Saladofstones (talk) 18:36, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Isn't it obvious? Its because Genestealer Cults would never willingly work with the Tyranids, they'd only do so if there's some benefit for them and/or because they're worried the Tyranids might betray and eat them. Either that, or it's the more likely conclusion that GW will take any excuse to fuck the Tyranids over, quite frankly we're lucky they're not "Come the Apocalypse". -- Triacom (talk) 05:01, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

• Fluff-wise, they are, well, a cult. They do not worship the Hive Mind but rather venerate the Patriarch. They have a societal and biological imperative that drives them to assist the Hive Mind but in the end most of them still are not pure Tyranids. They believe in their family and the Hive Mind will in the end take that away from them. Think about it this way: not everything that you *know* is good *feels* good. It's that doubt that makes the Cults both loyal to but apprehensive of the coming of the Swarm.

--Naeondaemon (talk) 06:27, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Fluff-wise they venerate the patriarch to the point of worship, what he commands they will obey. If he commands them to fight alongside the Tyranids they will do so without question, if he commands them to die at Tyranid hands/limbs/pools they will do so without question. Having them be 'Allies of Convenience' only means that the Patriarch doesn't actually want to ally with the Tyranids and also means he doesn't want them to show up, which is just downright stupid since attracting them is his whole purpose. It's also for this reason that in older Genestealer Cult lore it's mentioned that something can go wrong and it's possible the Patriarch doesn't recognize the actual Tyranids as Tyranids, in which case the cult will fight and attempt to destroy them without question. -- Triacom (talk) 08:34, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

so it is a Heart of Darkness kind of thing, with Patriarch Kurtz --Naeondaemon (talk) 08:40, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Do Astra Militarum Master of the Fleet ability of modifying reserves affect GSC? And the Formation reserve bonus with the AM? And do they stack?

Page 127 of the rulebook specifies that Allies of Convenience never benefit from modifiers to reserve rolls. Because of this, I removed the bit in the Allies of Convenience section of the page that said your Flyrants could benefit from the 2+ reserves. This also means that the Officer of the Fleet and the Cult Insurrection bonuses don't stack. However, I'm pretty sure you could still use the Officer of the Fleet to inflict an additional -1 to the enemy's reserves, meaning that if he gets his Ld check off, you could drop your opponents reserve rolls to a 5+. Gnarly. --DarthNader26 (talk) 17:50, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

It states that Allies of Convenience states that units do not benefit from modifiers from Allies of Convenience models, but the bonus comes from the detachment itself. I posted on YDMC on Dakka, because RAW-wise there it looks legal but skirting the edges of rule ambiguity. MagicJuggler (talk) 18:44, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

On page 121 of the BRB under the Command Benefits section it says pretty clearly that special rules or benefits "...apply to all or some of the models in that Detachment." That says pretty clearly that any Command Benefits from a Detachment only apply to the models in that Detachment. It doesn't need to be specific in the actual Detachment description because it's written there in the BRB. I'm all but certain this is against RAW. --DarthNader26 (talk) 18:49, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Fair enough, that part got me mixed up. Just to look things up, I double-checked the Champions of Fenris Voidclaws formation (which gets commonly taken for allowing reserve rerolls for Imperials), but noted that Formation Bonuses are technically not Command bonuses.

Huh, RAW I think that's cheating too. BRB says "Formations are a special type of Detachment..." and "along with any special rules that those units gain". A lot of people don't actually read the BRB cover to cover, so it doesn't surprise me that this has slipped by unnoticed. --DarthNader26 (talk) 18:02, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Removed the bit about Return to the Shadows. The "instead of moving" wording didn't click with me until it was pointed out that compulsory moves and going to ground would prevent additional movement in the movement phase. --DarthNader26 (talk) 18:26, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Overkill Units/Formations in Codex

So are the models/unique formation presented in Overkill just not allowed in the regular Genestealer Cult Codex for some reason? It being outdated isn't reason to delete it, it's just reason to say "Don't take it." There's also the formation that allows 600 points of models to gain Infiltrate, Stealth, Shrouded, Adamantium Will and Fearless which I'd think is still worth including, especially when it gives Ghosar (the traveler) and the two Princelings (I'm guessing they're Zuul and Vince Clortho) the ability to Infiltrate 1" away from enemies and charge in the first turn, which can really fuck with an opponent's gunline. -- Triacom (talk) 05:09, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

I copied them over, but then started stripping it back so much to the point that the entries would need a rewrite anyway, seeing as they don't have so many of the Cult rules such as Ambush, Return to Shadows, the special rules bubbles, access to wargear, the psychic powers etc, nor do they have any entry in the new Detachments allowing them to be swapped in. I reckon it would be wiser to have entries for the base Patriarch, Magus and Primus to provide context before detailing the characters based on them, then eventually determining "don't take them, unless you want that one formation. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 10:14, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

So why don't we add their formation then include them under it as a collapsible section since that formation is the one and only time you'd want to use them over the regular cults? -- Triacom (talk) 11:36, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

I've got absolutely no problem with them being there, just it wasn't helpful to have a stand alone unit analysis of a character pretty much explaining things as "a Patriarch" or "a Magus" when the the context isn't there. Akin to doing a unit description of Marneus Calgar before doing a generic chapter master to compare against. --16:44, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

How does the hypnosis work with artillery units, guardians with a weapon platform for instance

Double First Curse, adding CAD Primus' to Subterranean Uprising, and other independent character shenanigans

I removed the following section based on the new FAQ.

• Since you can run this as a standalone formation, you could theoretically run two First Curses if you really wanted to! The trick is to build the Cult Insurrection army as normal, take your First Curse as a Command Choice, take a second First Curse as a standalone Formation...and then switch the Broodlords around: Broodlord A from First Curse A joins Genestealer unit B from First Curse B, and vice-versa. This works since Genestealers get innate Infiltration, and Shrouded is a conferred USR; although it would eat up a third of your points in a standard 1850-pt match, having two Fearless Infiltrating T4 Move Through Cover mobs with Shrouded and a 5++ can give a lot of enemies pause for thought.

It clarifies on page 15 that adding an Independent Character to a detachment or vise versa does not confer formation or detachment rules to that character. For example, adding a Patriarch from a Cult Insurrection detachment would not confer the Shrouded benefit to a group of Genestealers that weren't in that detachment. Adding a Primus from a CAD to a Subterranean Uprising would prevent the squad he joins from benefiting from the extra dice on the Cult Ambush table. Formation and detachment rules only apply to units specifically listed in that formation or detachment, and GeeDubs has made it pretty clear that they don't want these things to overlap or carry over outside of the models specifically listed to be in the formation.

Re-read that segment. Shrouded doesn't apply to "the unit", but to models in the unit, and as long as at least one model has Shrouded, the whole unit does.MagicJuggler (talk) 21:54, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

"Do rules applying to ‘the unit’, such as those from Formation special rules (e.g. the Skyhammer Annihilation Force), or unit- wide special rules such as Dunestrider from Codex: Skitarii apply to any attached Independent Characters? A: No. The Formation special rules themselves do not apply to characters that join the Formation (unless specifically stated otherwise), although they may confer other special rules which do apply to characters that have joined units, such as Stealth or Stubborn"