Talk:Warhammer 40,000/Tactics/Chaos Daemons(8E)

Are Chaos Spawn no longer Daemons in 8th? Moonsaves (talk) 13:36, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

• Pretty sure chaos spawn were never demons (at least, not any time recently). Maybe you're thinking of that other canonical Chaos failure damned species, the Fury. Chaos Spawn are fully mortal and sometimes even come about because a mortal failed to reach daemonhood, as opposed to furies who's souls became demons after they were rejected by the Chaos gods for only using Chaos for their own gain instead of willingly devoting themselves to a god. As an aside, canon-wise, the only Chaos Spawn that successfully achieved demon princedom is Foulspawn. ...er, anyways, crunchwise, I think they were always just Chaos Space Marine units by default (although demons could get them by transmogrifying others into them using certain abilities) TiamatRoar (talk) 13:45, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Chaos Daemon detachments

For the purpose of ObSec, what keywords are of concern here? Probably CHAOS and DAEMON, right? That would mean that Warp Talons, Possesed, Obliterators, CSM HQ's on Mounts and the CSM Deamon Engines could be included into a Chaos Daemon detachment and your Troops would still have ObSec. Or did i miss something? --Styxwalker (talk) 21:42, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

• Managed to find an answer myself and woow did GW made it complicated to find: Designer's notes say that Allegiance and Mark of Chaos are different BEFORE the game starts, but are the same ONCE it starts. So to answer my own question: No they would not have ObSec... Styxwalker (talk) 22:19, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

Impossible Robes

When you fail a saving throw you can re-roll it but on a 1 the wearer is slain, my question: wouldn't Ephemeral Form make any roll of a 1 a 2, so you never have to worry about just dying outright? -- Kodachrome

• RAW: yes it would prevent it (same as prescience and overcharged plasmaguns). Seems like GW rules writing here, so i would expect the issue to be adressed in the FAQ. Styxwalker (talk) 22:16, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

• • Re-rolls happen before modifiers are applied. Angry Pirate (talk) 05:51, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Aetos Rau'keres

• You're really not adding anything worthwhile by suggesting that he's not trash. Yes, his durability can be doubled at the cost of 50 CP, that's a nice and worthwhile thing to write, but it doesn't impact whether or not he's good or bad because he's so terrible that it doesn't matter. His damage output remains the same. Have you even tried playing him or are you just doing theorycrafting thinking that it might not be trash? Wiki-style sites are great when people improve upon each other's works, not when a thousand different opinions on a topic are presented as equals when some of them clearly aren't. For all I know big bird could still be good but I'm pretty sure you know as little as I do. Angry Pirate (talk) 11:17, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Armouries on the various army pages.

This is mostly a repost of a question I had on the main tactics page, but I'll be posting it on all the most frequently updated tacticas because it applies to all of them and I'd like to hear any arguments against it.

I've been wondering this for a while now, but what do the armoury sections add that cannot be covered by unit entries? Everything in them is either stating info that is obvious and redundant to anyone holding the relevant book (which are the people using the tactica in the first place), or it's insight that is restated in the unit entry itself, where it's actually relevant. I get why we list relics since those are usually unique to the army and can be applies to a ton of different characters for different builds, same with Warlord Traits, and both of those are usually not covered in the various unit entries, instead that advice is usually covered in the relic and traits sections which makes sense. But for the regular armouries I'm not really seeing why we keep them around at all to be honest, since they take up so much space and it's annoying to scroll past that kind of bloat. How should we improve them, if possible (so that they're not just restating profiles) or should we just remove them? Personally I'm leaning more towards getting rid of them entirely. -- Triacom (talk) 18:53, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Wargear

Ranged Weapons

• Harvester Gun: Basic weapon on Soul Grinder, got nerfed somewhat now that it doesn't get any perks against things with Fly. S7 AP-1 Heavy 3 dealing D3 damage per hit at 48" range. Sadly, you're hitting on 5's if you move.
• Phlegm Bombardment: The other Soul Grinder gun, S8 AP-2 and 3 Damage from Heavy D6 shots within 36". Again, hit on 5's if you move.

Khorne

• Burning Roar: Fleshound barking, assault 1D6 within 8" at S4 D1 AP0 and autohits. Shame it doesn't have a longer range, putting it juuuuust outside deepstrike placement range. Still, barking that causes bolter hits is pretty funny.
• Lash of Khorne: Shooting weapon on Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury, D3 shots and damage at 8 inches at model's strength that can hit things within an inch of it or other friendly models. Combined with its AP-3 and the fact that it's on an S7 model gives it decent hitting power.
• Bloodflail: one of the two shooting weapons on the Wrath of Khan Khorne Thirster. Identical to the other flail but deals a flat 3 damage in exchange for just one shot.
• Hellfire: the other shooting attack on WoK, it's basically a heavy flamer presumably shot from the model's mouth for softening up tarpits.
• Skullcannon: the gun on the Skullcannon (duh). S8 AP-2 D6 shots and D3 damage at a 48" range, bypassing cover.

Tzeentch

• Coruscating Flame: 18" Assault 2 S:User (3 for pink horrors, 2 for blue, 1 for brimstone) AP0 shooting attack from pink horrors. Expect to spam this with reckless abandon.
• Flickering Flame: The flamer's weapon, it's essentially a 12" pistol d6 flamer with AP-1.
• Fires of Tzeentch: The exalted flamer's attack has two modes: blue is 18" heavy 3 S9 AP-4 Dd3 anti-anything attack, pink is a 12" heavy flamer with AP-2.

Nurgle

• Plagueflail: Other default weapon for the GUO. Assault 3 Strength model AP-3 2 Wounds with 7" range which can also shoot in close combat, also excess wounds don't get lost but get spread to other models in the target unit.

Slaanesh

• Lashes of Torment: Chariots only, including Exalted and Hellflayers. Assault D6 strength 4 damage 1 with 6" range that can also be fired in, and out of a close combat.
• Heartstring Lyre: The Infernal Enrapturess' exclusive weapon. Apparently made from some poor bastard, has two shooting profiles. Cacaphonous Melody puts out assault 6 shots at S4 AP-1 within 18" and D1 while Euphonic Blast dishes out a single assault S8 AP-3 D3 smack at 24".

Melee Weapons

• Hellforged Sword: your DP has one of these. S+0 AP-2 is lame, but a flat 3 damage almost makes up for it. You're much better off with the two malefic talons. The only reason you want a Hellforged Sword is if you are swapping it to one of the God weapon relic options. Or you blew all your points and can't afford any options for your DP... how did you do this?
• Malefic Talons: the other weapon on your DP replacing the Hellforged Sword. Like the sword above but one less damage. They do however give your DP +1 attack and you can take a second set of talons for +3 attacks for a total of 7 in exchange for the Hellforged sword. These are statistically the best to take, as you'll have between 7-9 melee attacks hitting on 2's. If you're Khorne, you'll be wounding T4 on a 2+ on your charge too). Also, it's bestial as fark to be a Daemon Prince who forgoes 'cultured' weapons to rip n tear with his own bare hands.
• Daemonic Axe: another melee weapon for DPs, S+1 AP-3 and also a flat 3 damage but a -1 to hit. The opposite approach to trading off your sword for more claws, you lose attacks for more strength and AP. Fortunately most things that can take a D-Axe already hit on 2+ base so it's not like there's a major loss in hits.
• Iron Claw: Default "Power Fist" found on Soul Grinders, thank the gods it doesn't subtract from your hit rolls anymore! Sx2 AP-3 and D6 damage. Used best for punching open anything in CC, namely stuff with a high toughness and lots of wounds. Like other vehicles and monsters.
• Warpclaw: S:User, -2AP & D3dmg make this the best melee weapon for angry Grinders to use vs infantry, especially as it hits twice per attack, doubling the potential woe. Given that a lot of Daemonic units already handle infantry once in melee this may not be a great option to take when others are available.
• Warpsword: S:User, -3AP & 3dmg, re-rolls failed hits. The middle of the road weapon for when you want to puncture most metal boxes on 3s, do a consistent 3 damage and improve your very average change to hit.

Khorne

• Hellblade: The venerable Bloodletter standard issue, they're basically power swords that do an extra wound on a wound roll of 6.
• Blade of Blood: Hellblade for Heralds. Deals D3 wounds, unless they roll a 6 to wound, in which case it is a flat 3 damage.
• Axe of Khorne: +3 Strength, AP-4, D6 wounds. The Bloodthirster classic.
• Great Axe of Khorne: The Insensate Rage variant. Can either do a Mighty Strike (same profile as regular Axe, but Strength 14 and you have to roll 2 dice and discard the lower one for damage amount) or a Sweep (Strength 7, AP-2, 1 wound, double the amount of attacks...

Tzeentch

• Ritual Dagger: Stock weapon for Herald of Tzeentch, S+1 AP-1 D1 and unsaved wounds replenish the user's. Nice, but you would need to be desperate enough to send a HoT into combat for that.
• Staff of Tzeentch: Default weapon for Lords of Change, AP-2, D3 and creates Spa-weird things from dead Characters.
• Baleful Sword: Alternate weapon for the big bird. S+1 AP-3 D6 Damage but with a -1 to hit rolls.
• Tongues of Flame: Since the Exalted Flamer can swap around what mode its flames can take, this is how it can constantly participate in combat. It's no flamer, but it is AP-1.

Nurgle

• Plaguesword: Standard issue sword for Plaguebearers, rerolls every failed wound roll.
• Balesword: Herald blade, a Plaguesword with AP-3.
• Bilesword: Default weapon for Great Unclean Ones, a Balesword with +1 Strength and dealing D6 wounds.
• Bileblade: One of the new options for the GUO. It's a Balesword dealing D3 wounds, also the bearer can deal a mortal wound to himself (which can try to ignore via Disgustingly Resilient) before casting a psychic power to get a +1 to the casting roll.
• Doomsday Bell: The other new toy for the big boy. Strength +1 AP-1 dealing D3 wounds, also the bearer now can roll on 4D6 when using Daemonic Ritual to summon Nurgle Daemons, and at the beginning of your turns you can roll a dice for every Nurgle Daemon unit within 7" from the bearer and for every 4+ roll you can resurrect a single model in a unit.

Slaanesh

• Piercing Claws: Daemonette claws, basically. AP-1 or -4 if you roll a 6 to wound.
• Ravaging Claws: Piercing Claws for Heralds, dealing 2 wounds instead of 1.
• Dissecting Claws: Same as Ravaging Claws but found on fiends.
• Vicious Barbed Tail: one attack with AP-3 and D3 damage. Really sucks that it's S:User and it's only found on fiends with their S4. You're better off using the claws.
• Snapping Claws: Even better claws, found on Keepers of Secrets, they do 3 damage in addition to their better AP.
• Witstealer Sword: More reliable AP-3 and +1 Strength plus wounded models are at -1 to hit for the game. Ouch!

Relics

Khorne

• Armour of Scorn: Khorne Monster only. Bearer gets a 4+ invulnerable save and can deny a single psychic power in each enemy phase.
• Skullreaver: Khorne models only, replaces an Axe of Khorne, Great Axe of Khorne or Daemonic Axe. S +3 AP -4 D D6, deals additional D3 mortal wounds on any wound roll of 6+ and also can reroll all failed wound rolls against Titanic units. A bit sketchy replacing a Great Axe, but a good replacement for an Axe of Khorne or especially a Daemonic Axe
• Crimson Crown: Khorne models only. when a Khorne Daemon model within 6" makes a to wound roll of 6+, they can immediatly make an additional attack (standard no chaining clause in effect). Combine with Bloodletter Bomb and watch Blood Angels' jaws drop with the amount blood and fury unleashed! - This Crown is also for shooting, so 1 lord, some skull cannons, when they wound on a 6's they can make an additional 1 shot (note that it is only one shot rather than D6 due to the Music of the Apocalypse FAQ for Codex Chaos Space Marines). This also works with Lord of Skulls since he is a demon, so who said Khorne cant be shooty?
• King of Blades: Khorne models only. replaces a hellforged sword or Blade of Blood. Strength +1, ap -4, d3 damage, Reroll all to wound rolls when targeting a character, 3 damage if given to a monster. Obviously, can be taken only by Heralds or DPs and it's just nasty on a DPoK. Definitely interesting on a Juggernaut Herald though: with all the strength bonuses you’d get, the Herald would be hitting at Strength EIGHT on the charge, making for decent anti-tank if you can’t spring the points for a Daemon Prince/‘Thirster.

Tzeentch

• The Impossible Robe: Tzeentch models only. Bearer gets a 4++ (technically 3++ because of Ephemeral Form) invulnerable save and a one-use save reroll, but if the reroll gives you a 1 the bearer instantly dies. Combine with warp surge to get a 3++ (2++ with EF) for one phase, only downside is you lose your rerolls (although on the other hand this also means no risk of killing yourself by accident). Even though technically warp surge can only increase the invuln to 3++ this still works since Ephemeral form gives +1 to the roll, not the save itself. Very nice to keep a lord of change alive against long-range heavy weapons. Even more if combined with the incorporeal form warlord trait. The 2++ trick is no longer possible since the recent September 2018 Errata, which limited Warp Surge to a 4++
• Soulbane: Tzeentch Herald only. replaces ritual dagger. Strength User, Ap -5, 1 damage. Invulnerable saves cannot be taken against this weapon. Wounding with this may be an issue but if it does wound, only FnP equivalents can stop it.(not quite, Bullgryns with Slabshields and the Psychic Barrier spell cast on them will still get a 6+ armor save RAW)
• Endless Grimoir: Tzeentch Psyker only. Knows one additional power.
• Everstave: Tzeentch Model only. replaces rod of sorcery or staff of change. +1 to manifest smite. Who are we kidding, of course you'll be Smite spamming with Tzeentch!

Nurgle

• Horn of Nurgle's Rot: Nurgle models only. Every time the bearer kills an enemy model in melee, roll a D6: on a 4+ you can add a model to a friendly Plaguebearers unit within 7". Pairs well with a offensive unit like a daemon prince (hiding in a plaguebearers unit).
• Entropic Knell: Nurgle models only. enemies within 7" get -1 to their leadership.
• Corruption: Nurgle models only. replaces a Plaguesword, Bilesword, Balesword, or Hellforged Sword. melee, str +2, AP -3, d3 damage, reroll all failed to wound rolls.

Slaanesh

• The Mark of Excess: Slaanesh models only. Bearer gets +1 attack by default, and gets another +1 every time he kills a Character or a Monster.
• The Forbidden Gem: Slaanesh models only. Once per game, you can hypnotize an enemy character. At the beginning of any enemy phase, select one character within 12". roll 3d6 and if you exceed the targets leadership, it cannot act during this phase (IE fight, shoot, manifest psychic powers, etc). In addition, any aura effects the character might have are turned off. The range is a bit of a problem, but if it works, you are guaranteed a full turn in which your opponent's special snowflake character won't be able to do anything at all. More importantly, any supporting effects that character might have been generating passively are shut down for the turn- because screw Guilliman, that's why. (Works well with the Phantasmagoria psychic power for shutting down pesky characters)
• Soulstealer: Slaanesh models only. Replaces a witstealer sword or hellforged sword. Melee, user str user+1, ap -3, 3 damage. Each time a model is slain by this weapon, the bearer regains one lost wound. In addition, you can reroll all to wound rolls if targeting eldar. Useful for keeping a melee character alive, and helps to make the Ancient Doom rule the Eldar have work in your favor. Give this to your Keeper of Secrets or DPoS for an infantry killing machine that just won't die!
• Slothful Claws: Slaanesh Herald models only. Replaces Ravaging Claws. Melee, strength +1, ap -2, 2 damage, each time you make a to wound roll of 4+, this attack is resolved at ap -4 instead of ap -2. Kinda meh, different from stock Herald claws by a bonus point of AP and strength.

Karanaks ability to summon Fleshhounds

I've noticed it on his section, but isn't that rule just for Age of Sigmar and NOT 40k? Or was there an update somewhere for his 40k profile that included that rule? Want to make sure it's not got crunch behind it before deleting

On the Pictures

What a mess.

Adding pictures inside the table fucks the layout because on the PC and mobile devices it takes up so much of the article that it compresses the paragraphs way off to the side, making the page far more annoying to read just for the sake of adding a picture that takes up relatively little space. If you want to add pics, do either what I did in the CSM tactica or what was done in the 30k tactica and have the pics in the paragraphs themselves, not off to the side in a table for no reason. -- Triacom (talk) 19:46, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

For anyone curious as to what I'm talking about looks like, I've now attached an image to this topic. I actually had to edit it together from separate images because I it doesn't fit on my monitor, just like it doesn't fit on mobile devices. This kind of thing doesn't work because the image ends up being tiny while the text gets squished. -- Triacom (talk) 01:31, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

Do remember that this is an approximation using my monitor, on mobile devices the picture is about 30% smaller, as is the word denoting the Bloodletter section. -- Triacom (talk) 01:33, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

Zarakynel

Would someone mind tidying up Zarakynel's section? I feel a description and then 4 'Alternate Takes', the last 3 of which all essentially state the same thing, is a bit much? Or is it meant to be confusing to get into the whole 'Slaanesh being non-binary to confuse you' spirit? 86.164.203.20 16:41, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

The entire page needs a re-write. It's not meant to be intentionally confusing, it's just people who don't get that not every opinion is equally valid. You or anyone else can do that section, or you can wait until I get around to it in my backlog. -- Triacom (talk) 18:50, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Fixed. Angry Pirate (talk) 08:45, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Cleaning

I cleaned up the page a bit and changed the format to look like the Necron and Chaos Space Marines pages. But I don't want to rewrite all the entries, what's already here is not written in the style I do and I don't play CD so I feel like I cannot do a good job of making the article the best it can be. Angry Pirate (talk) 08:48, 2 June 2019 (UTC)