Talk:Warhammer 40,000/Tactics/Chaos Space Marines (9E)

I'm advocating a total revamp of the article. A lot of the advocated strategies and ideas are just kind of bunk pseudo-casual theorycrafting of 'what might be good' and the general presentation is super messy - especially the constant 'crossing out' of incorrect information instead of just straight up removing it. Stuff like modelling tips should be restricted to their own segment in the article. 101Imposter (talk) 15:55, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

A couple things, firstly there's going to be a transition from 8th to 9th that's a bit messy, which is why some of it's outdated. Secondly there's three strikethroughs in the article and all three of them are jokes, there are no bits where somebody crossed out incorrect information and replaced it with new information aside from one anon which has already been dealt with. Thirdly how exactly is it messy, and how would you propose to fix it? -- Triacom (talk) 17:24, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm going to be moving your most recent topic from the main page to go over it here, since I think it's all over the place. -- Triacom (talk) 17:32, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Some harsher thoughts from a competitive player

Chaos Space Marines are a force that, in both the lore and GWs official description of rules, are an aggressive army that takes the power of the standard Space Marine and combines it with the power of Chaos. The reality is a little different.

It's best to get the positives out of the way; first, for non-gameplay related stuff, the army is well suited for conversions, kit-bashing and other creative efforts. You have a wide variety of miniatures to select pieces from (you effectively have four different plastic box sets to use for your commanders, your standard troops, your elite troops, and your heavy support) and can freely mix and match pieces to your heart's content. Secondly, the lore is, for the most part, pretty good; CSM are arguably even more 'your dudes' than normal Space Marines, and their book technically represents not only the original nine Traitor Legions but just about every kind of renegade since the Horus Heresy.

Unfortunately negatives begin with the actual gameplay itself; CSM have struggled to put competitive lists on the table for almost six editions - usually relying upon monolists unappealing to players with certain ideas regarding the lore. Likewise, monolists are frequently nerfed into the ground by subsequent updates - leaving the powerful units (Heldrakes, Cultists and soon Possessed will be able to attest to this) almost useless - because GW has no clue how to balance their own game.

CSM, after Space Marines do have the widest array of Faction Traits, Warlord Traits, Artefacts and Stratagems in the game; unfortunately many of them are worthless - worse still, some are actually actively harmful to your own efforts. There is also the problem that many of the subfaction abilities just don't blend together at all (Crimson Slaughter for example) or rely strongly on 'fluffy' gimmicks that do not translate into the actual game whatsoever (Night Lords and fear shenanigans).

The other big problem for CSM is that the army is frequently portrayed in lore (and cringe inducing in-jokes, memes and other fan shit) as an unstoppable force in close combat. Unfortunately for CSMs, the game is inclined towards ranged combat (because it's risk-free). If you plan to run across the board and charge your opponent down - you're out of luck. It is true you have a suite of very hard-hitting close-combat options - Khorne Berzerkers for example, can produce an obscene number of attacks (a squad of only 5 Khorne Berzerkers with no upgrades will produce 21 attacks on the charge). The problem is you lack solid delivery mechanisms and your men willbe shot to pieces as they advance across the board. While Overwatch is no longer as big a danger as it was in 8th, Close Combat remains far weaker than ranged combat.

This isn't to say CSMs are completely down and out. You have a number of powerful offensive options - but almost all of them are ranged focussed. A number of stratagems are exceptionally strong; Veterans of the Long War and its +1 to wound allows standard troops to strip wounds from Knights, Cacophony of Slaanesh and the ability to double-fire will remove just about anything off the table. This can be combined with Psychic Powers like Death Hex to strip away Invulnerable saves, meaning even 3++ save Riptides will suddenly find themselves in danger of being overwhelmed by 32 Strength 5, AP-1 shots from a Havoc Squad.

Likewise, close-combat weaknesses can be countered by a number of powerful stratagems and detachment options. Honour the Prince combined with Host Raptorial will ensure successful charges from Deep Strike - though given the nerfs to overwatch this is not necessarily as strong as it was previously. Psychic Powers like Warp Time can also help ease the issue of a lack of solid delivery mechanisms.

So the reason I moved it here is because this bit seems a bit confused. It's put in the "Why Play" section and seems meant to replace what's originally there, but it also includes general tactics that are more suited to the actual tactics section down below. I'd also disagree about ranged being as strong in 9th as it was in 8th, flyers can no longer disengage and still shoot you, the minimum board size is a lot smaller, Overwatch is a lot more costly now since it's a Stratagem (except for Tau) and 9th edition has barely been out, I doubt we've seen enough of it to form a good opinion on just how strong the new meta is, or even what it is by this point. -- Triacom (talk) 17:32, 20 July 2020 (UTC)