Talk:Warhammer 40,000/Tactics/Imperial Agents

Built the Skeleton

Did what I could with what I know. Built a framework to work with for each of the factions contained within the book. Due to the book serving as an effective cheatsheet for certain alliances, many units are borrowed wholesale from their respective parent codices. To reflect that, alongside my hesitation to really write about things I am unfamiliar with, I simply gave each unit/faction links to their parent codices. I attempted to mark where Imperial Agents and said codices differed but I fear I have let a lot slip pass because of all of these I only have fielded Cult Mechanicus before (and Hell, until now the Cult Mechanicus didn't even have the Engineseer.) So please, add and take away as you will. I might continue to work on this, perhaps even lift info completely and transpose them into this article. Whatever.--Naeondaemon (talk) 06:02, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Should this Page Exist?

Would it not make more sense if the relevant entries were just moved into their relevant codices? Viewing this codex not as a regular codex, but rather a compendium of minor supplements for the mentioned codices? I cannot imagine anyone thinking "I want to play Imperial Agents, I better go look up a tactics guide on them". I don't know if this page should be entirely removed or maybe somehow reformatted? I'm also not familiar with how fast these pages are usually built, but this one probably won't get much traction because of its nature as a compendium of supplements rather than a normal faction. Perhabs I am wrong just because of things like the Castellans of the Imperium formation which might fit best here, but I could also see it being presented in the Formations or Allies segments of the codices in which it would be a worthwhile consideration. If you are playing with Astra Militarum, the Inquisition and Sisters of Battle in a Castellan formation are you really playing an Imperial Agenst army or just a Astra Militarum, Inquisition and Sisters of Battle army? Angry Pirate (talk) 13:20, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

The way I see it, there're several things that make Codex: Imperial Agents stand out:

• They are roughly equivalent to but not the same as extant codices that it contains units of. The Adepta Sororitas and Inquisition codices have altered rules and units.
• This serves as a short-hand reference for those who want to know what the book is about. Due to the fragmented nature, it can be easy and somewhat messy to shove the relevant info to all tactics pages
• It contains factions that are separate from the big codices (Astra Telepathica, Aeronautica Imperialis)

But I see where you are coming from and tend to agree with you. I am currently just making sure it stays pretty and devoid of factual inaccuracies. If there was a way to condense the sub-factions that do not have their own books into one page without blossoming out to a multitude of stub pages, I would prefer that. As it stands, Imperial Agents sits in a weird place.--Naeondaemon (talk) 21:23, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

• Having everything from Imperial Agents in one place could at least be useful to those on the fence about getting the book, I guess. If, hypothetically, a person was considering getting the book and wanted to know what unique tactics and layouts in it could be applied to what armies, then without this page he'd have to go all over the place to find the info. TiamatRoar (talk) 13:53, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

• Considering that this book is a later release that includes earlier units, I don't get why it isn't treated in the same way as a new release. With every other army we have pages containing tips from the earlier editions, and each time a new book comes out we make a new page, and having redirects to everything certainly here isn't helpful, especially when those tips could be unique to armies that this book does not include. With that in mind I'm going to be copying the descriptions over and changing them where they're needed, rather than having the user click through about half a dozen tactics pages (give or take) to see the pros and cons of each unit. If anyone doesn't want that, please speak up now. -- Triacom (talk) 05:24, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

I will admit the links were lazy editing on my part.--Naeondaemon (talk) 06:16, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

• So I'm finally finished fleshing out everything on the page with everything I could, and now that it's one of the larger tactics pages I'm willing to call it a day. -- Triacom (talk) 06:30, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Inquisitorial Henchman Warband

I guess my confusion stems from the specification that you may take a unit of Acolytes but no other entry contains the word. So, I apologize and corrected my error. That said, for my own peace of mind I will ask GW for clarification.--Naeondaemon (talk) 03:11, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

I'll agree that it is poorly worded, however every unit besides Acolytes is marked with a footnote, and that footnote says: "These units must form a single unit with this Formation's units of Acolytes." So that means 0-1 units of Ministorum Priests, 0-1 units of Crusaders, etc. -- Triacom (talk) 04:09, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Could anyone point out to me where it says the Inquisition's henchman warband can get any of the listed transports? I get that the Inquisitor can get them using the Chambers Militant (which is odd considering the Chambers Militant don't exist anymore, though I suppose nobody told the writer that) but I can't see anything that allows this sort of overlap (Sisters inside of Valkyries for example). -- Triacom (talk) 04:25, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Never mind, I found it. It's in the Acolyte entry rather than in the unit formation, so I initially missed it. -- Triacom (talk) 04:31, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

The picture does depict multiple crusaders, which would have saved me from pouring over the rules of grammar alongside the intent of rules-making.--Naeondaemon (talk) 04:43, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Aeronautica Imperialis Extra Units?

Could somebody please link me to where it says the Forge World vehicles are a part of the Aeronautica Imperialis faction? I'm having a hard time finding it and am more leaning towards believing that their addition was just wishful thinking. -- Triacom (talk) 07:44, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure where it says anything explicitly, but Imperial Armour Aeronautica had Imperial Navy units grouped separately from Imperial Guard units. A trend which was carried into the 6th edition FAQ and the "Lord of War" FAQ that followed, currently Forgeworld flyers appear to fall under that "Armies of the Imperium" bracket as from the latest Death from the Skies FAQ.

HOWEVER, as I mentioned at the beginning, I can't find anything which allows them to be taken in factions outside of Imperial Guard, Inquisition or Space Marines where noted. (eg: may be taken as a Heavy Support choice in Imperial Guard armies) So there isn't really a RAW way to take them in a Aeronautica Imperialis detachment because they haven't had battlefield roles assigned to them in their own faction, no matter how obvious it might be. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 08:01, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

That's what I'd thought, and the conclusion I'd come to through searching through their books. As such I'll be removing that from the AI section. -- Triacom (talk) 18:36, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Minor Suggestion

To cut down on the shear page length, we might want to put the longer sections in collapsing spoilers. The armories and special rules could use it in particular.

If you want to do that, you might as well divide the spoilers by army. For now though I'm kinda burned out on editing the page (and genuinely surprised that nobody else joined in) so I'm not going to do any large edits to it for a while. -- Triacom (talk) 06:54, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Bullet points vs indentations.

Do people really like the bullet points that much more? In many cases I've opted for indentations instead because the tactics were discussing the same point, and only switched to bullet points when I moved onto something else. For example, if I was discussing various ranged options I'd start with a bullet point, then go with indentations for each subsequent break until I moved onto the melee stuff, which would start with another bullet point to make it clear that it's a different topic for that same model. If people really prefer having bullet points on everything for some reason then I'll leave it, I just think it's odd (much like removing all the quotations and an indentation and replacing them with a semicolon even though they do the exact same thing so it's pointless). In any case I'll leave this up until the weekend and revert those specific changes if nobody answers. -- Triacom (talk) 17:26, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

The ideal loadout for the Corvus Blackstar.

So I'm having trouble seeing why some of the recommended options for the Corvus are recommended at all. Do note that this is going to be quite long winded and as such will be collapsible as the purpose is to try and min-max the Corvus Blackstar's loadout.

• Starting with the lascannon, why? It's one shot at Strength 9 per turn, whereas the Stormstrike missiles should be able to handle whatever armour the Corvus should by hunting already. Sending it after something S8 cannot scratch is a terrible idea since S9 is still a gamble, and a rather big one on that when you only have the one shot, as opposed to the assault cannon which would allow it to get infantry and threaten low-AV when its missiles run out.

If you're thinking that it might be useful over several game turns then there's a problem with this: the Blackstar isn't going to be doing shit on turn 1, barring a very specific gameplan that on its own eliminates the need of the lascannon. When it arrives it'll likely be turn 3 or later (maybe turn 2 if you're really lucky and invest in both an Astropath and Officer of the Fleet), so its shots will be limited.

Even if it arrives almost immediately there's a very big issue with flyers: It's going to die. One use weapons are great for flyers because they can fire them, kill shit and then die. Even at AV12 it's hard to keep a flyer alive if the opponent has any sort of decent Skyfire (and with all of the new relics and items available to nearly every army there's little excuse to not have good Skyfire nowadays). Is swapping out an assault cannon for a lascannon that'll only fire a 3-4 times really worth it? Because I'd say it isn't.

Maybe you'd want the lascannon for putting a few additional Wounds on MC's, but here's the problem with that: the squad it's carrying should already be covering that role. Even with the Stormstrike Missiles the Corvus Blackstar will find it hard to kill a six-Wound MC, and that's if you're shooting at it every single turn and good luck if it's T7, T8, or has any sort of decent invuln save. The squad it's carrying can and should handle any MC you might be worried about, especially if it's concussed by the Stormstrike Missiles. Hell with the right loadout they could also handle the heavy armour that you shouldn't reserve its lascannon for.

The only way the Corvus can make its lascannon very useful is if it is starting on the board turn 1 thanks to something like a Skyshield Landing Pad, but then the problem is that, once again the squad inside should already be good to handle any threat that might require a lascannon.

• Next up is the useless piece of shit that is the Blackstar Rocket Launcher. This might not have been so bad if they didn't replace the Stormstrike Missiles, but it does. You're going down from S8 AP2 to S6 AP4, and keep in mind the second profile there is meant to handle fliers, which it's not very good at compared to the first profile. Yes it means you put out more shots, but your ability to penetrate is drastically reduced and you don't get the +1 on the table. If you're up against AV12 you're just flat-out fucked, if you're not up against anything Skyfire works on you're also fucked as it can only fire Snap Shots at other targets with this mode (as opposed to Stormstrike Missiles which are good against both ground and aerial targets, which is a shame since it might have otherwise been okay if used alongside the assault cannon at ground troops) and the Dracos Warhead is a glorified Frag Launcher. You want something even better than Dracos Warheads that'll mulch through hordes and deny them cover? You've got half a dozen options for that in the kill-team that the Blackstar is carrying, and if you really want S6 to deal with fliers, then that's another reason to keep that assault cannon instead of swapping it for that lascannon as it puts out a guaranteed four shots, all of which can rend (so unlike the Launcher, a cannon can penetrate AV12).
• As for near mandatory upgrades, I don't see why you'd ever run it without the Auspex Array and the Halo-launcher. As mentioned above, it's going to die, but a Halo-launcher will let it live long enough to be a thorn in the enemy's side and hopefully attract more firepower than is needed in the long run (it's also dirt cheap, even if you don't use it you lose almost nothing), while upgrading to BS5 for only 10 points is a steal.

So those are my thoughts on the Blackstar and why the default loadout, aside from the addition of an Auspex Array and the Halo-launcher, is the best loadout. If anyone has any further thoughts on it I'd like to hear them. -- Triacom (talk) 06:16, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

My response to this would largely center around different metas. If that Corvus Loadout is minmaxed for your meta, that's fine, but different play groups have different armies in them, and 1d4chan has never really been the place to discuss top-end tournament tactics. The other options aren't useless by a long shot.

First off, you have to choose between the Infernium Halo Launcher and the Auspex Array. It's an either/or choice. Second, the Corvus is hilariously durable for a flier, and if you're bringing it as an addition to another force (as you would in Imperial Agents) I'd say that it's pretty reasonable that you could handicap your enemy's AA capabilities pretty early on. I play a pure Deathwatch army, and I have three of the things zipping around at anything over 1500 points simply because they're hard to kill and highly mobile. The Stormstrike Missiles are all well and good for the first turn it's on the board, but after that you've blown your load and you're an overcosted assault cannon with wings. You can and should have plenty of options for dealing with armor, especially with Deathwatch. It's always been way more reliable to kill a Leman Russ or Vidicator in melee than it has to try and shoot them to death. The Stormstrike Missiles are pretty damn useless against heavily armored ground targets. Hit those with the Heavy Thunder Hammers, especially if they can't fight back. Where the Stormstrike Missiles shine is in dropping MCs to I1 so your hammers can go to work. The Lascannon is largely useful in a support role thanks to its superior range. I often have my Corvus drop off the Kill Team at the location I want them and then loiter in the area to scoop them back up once they're done. The Lascannon gives me a lot more range to play with and with some good positioning can be hunting side and rear armor like a champ, especially with the Auspex Array. The Blackstar Rocket Launcher is useful for thinning out threats close to where the Kill Team wants to be fighting. An S4 AP5 cover-ignoring twin-linked large blast at BS5 can wreck the shit out of some bubble wrap. The Corvid rounds basically work identically to the Assault Cannon sans Rending. Sure, they aren't as good as more Assault Cannon shots, but they're also twin-linked and provide some versatility. Plus, if you're using an Infernium Halo Launcher and jinking a lot, the skyfire limitation won't matter for shit. You're snap shooting anyway. Unlike the Stormstrikes, these are twin-linked and you can fire them more than 4 times before you've blown your load.

Again, it's all based on your local meta. If your meta has enough flier hate that the Corvus can't stay alive even with rerollable jink saves, then definitely don't waste your time with the Blackstar Rocket Launcher. Shit, I'd tell you not to waste your time with the Assault Cannon, 'cause it's too short range. Go for the Lascannons and the Stormstrikes (same cost as the Assault Cannon) and have a wider variety of targets to shoot at. If you're in my meta, where fliers are tough to deal with and represent a big threat, the other tools on the Corvus can be really useful. -- DarthNader26 (talk) 10:32, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

But 1d4chan is the place to discuss which options are/aren't important, and there are both talk pages and tactics pages where tournament metas are mentioned.

As for the points, I'll admit that I somehow missed it being an either or choice. Yes I'll agree that it's very durable for a flier, however the most durable of fliers are only AV12 with 3HP, and it doesn't take more than S8-S9 to get through their armour, especially when it's now very easy to put skyfire on squads with those weapons. Handicapping your enemies AA depends entirely on what they bring and depending on who you're up against you might lose it the second it enters play via Interceptor.

If you're going to deal with armour, then why wouldn't the squad inside the Blackstar or any allied option on this page be taken to deal with them? As I stated above a single lascannon shot, regardless of it being twin-linked, isn't a good idea for dealing with armour. If you're disappointed with how much damage it deals with the assault cannon for some reason then grab the hurricane bolters to up the damage while allowing you to keep the missiles and cannon. I also don't see why you'd try to use all four missiles immediately. If you're firing all four then that means you're hovering it and don't have the protection zooming brings (and in the games I've played, a hovering flyer is usually a dead flyer), you're not transporting the squad to where they need to go, and if you're zooming you can only fire one missile per turn at full BS. Given the average time it takes for a flier to get on the board this means that those four missiles should last you nearly the entire game, and the assault cannon will harass infantry for the final turn if it lives that long.

"It's always been way more reliable to kill a Leman Russ or Vidicator in melee than it has to try and shoot them to death." Exactly, which is why I said that the squad being carried is far more suited to taking out armour than the Blackstar is. One lascannon shot isn't likely to kill either of those, neither is two. You're going to need three which means getting multiple Blackstar's (which I hope that you can also agree isn't as efficient) or spending more than half the game with them on the board (waiting for it to show up means those'll live to at least turn 4).

If you want to hunt side armour, why aren't the missiles good enough for that? Stormstrike should tear right through most side armour and even assault cannons are good for most side armour, especially with Rending (multiple shots also giving you more potential to take off Hull Points than the lascannon since that can do a max 1 HP per turn).

If you want to wreck threats near where the squad is fighting then why wouldn't you just go with the assault cannon and/or hurricane bolter? It's also S4 AP5 and while it doesn't ignore cover, it'll get nearly the same hits as the Blackstar Launcher (and more when you're within 12", aka what is usually the minimum range the squad inside will be assaulting from) without losing the Stormstrike. Large Blasts can be good but only if you're up against somebody who either can't spread out their models, or doesn't know that they should, however I can't say it's good when you're losing so much S8 AP2 just to get a few large blasts at S4 AP5. From my experience close combat with Deathwatch really doesn't last that long, and every Deathwatch marine can take template weapons for dealing with those same hordes which outright eliminates the need for the Blackstar Launcher.

I'm also surprised that anyone would say the Assault Cannon's too short ranged when it's attached to a flyer, you've got an 18" move followed by 24" range. If you can't get into range with that thing for some reason (especially since you should be carrying a squad that usually assaults from it) then something is seriously wrong with your game plan. Also what threats are there that are simultaneously near the squad and warrant a Blackstar Launcher, yet at the same time are too far away for an assault cannon/hurricane bolter? -- Triacom (talk) 17:26, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

Zooming fliers can fire four weapons at full BS, meaning the Blackstar can dump all 4 missiles at once if it really wants to. I agree that this is a bad plan, but my point is more that the missiles are basically useful for softening up a big, scary melee target thanks to Concussive. In the same way the Lascannon isn't really that impressive, the missiles are even less so. They shoot once, have one less strength, and aren't twin-linked. If you're taking a Halo launcher, they're basically useless. I agree wholeheartedly that the purpose of the Corvus is to vomit a Kill Team onto a target, which is why I will always recommend the Blackstar Launcher over the Stormstrike missiles if you use it in this capacity. D6 Twin-Linked snap shots are much more likely to hit than 4 not-Twin-Linked snapshots, and you can fire them every turn as opposed to once. If I'm just bringing one Corvus, my preferred loadout is the Assault Cannon, Blackstar Rocket Launcher, and the Hurricane Bolter. You can fire all three every turn at full BS if you don't jink, and if you do jink you don't lose any of your firepower and everything is twin-linked.

Plus, in favor of the S4 AP5 Large Blast, you can fire it the turn you come on thanks to the nice 30" range and up to 36" of movement and it's for clearing out bubble wrap around your target. You and I have both said that Kill Teams are ideal for taking out heavy armor. When they pop out of the Blackstar, they can either target the horde of bubble wrap, or the big, scary target. I think you'll agree they're much better served fighting whatever the big thing is, so if the Blackstar can thin out the horde with it's Twin-Linked Assault Cannon, Twin-Linked S4 AP5 Cover-Ignoring Large Blast, and its 6 S4 AP5 Twin-Linked hurricane bolter shots at BS4, your dudes can focus on putting those Frag Cannons up the ass of whatever Baneblade or Imperial Knight you've sent them out to fight. Yeah, the rest of your army can support them in this, but a lone Corvus is best served protecting the Kill Team from infantry threats, not trying to take out vehicles. Again, the exception to this would be if you expected to fight a Wraithknight or Greater Daemon or other scary MC, as the Stormstrike Missiles can drop them to I1 the turn the squad inside disembarks for the charge, making your Heavy Thunder Hammers that much more effective.

That said, my second Corvus is almost always a Lascannon/Stormstrike Corvus. You only need so much anti-horde firepower, and the Lascannon/Stormstrike combo provides some solid fire support against tougher targets that the first Kill Team might not be able to reach. Admittedly, this is from the perspective of someone who plays pure Deathwatch lists, so it is less relevant to a codex focused on taking them as allies. Deathwatch just struggles with long range firefights and having a dedicated Corvus to dogfight enemy fliers and hang out in the backfield as a fast skimmer capturing points is really useful while the other two deliver Kill Teams. Not nearly as important when being supported by another army, though, so that's a fair point. Still, it's free and the Lascannon has good range. It's situational, but still good. -- DarthNader26 (talk) 12:40, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

Whoops, apparently I've been playing flyers wrong, thanks for pointing that out (though in this case that doesn't change that much as we're comparing wargear).

I'll agree the missiles are better for their concussive ability, which in my opinion already makes them more worth it than the Blackstar Launcher since it combos well with the squad inside the flyer. The Blackstar Launcher is either nearly useless in comparison (again, S6 AP4 does not compare to S8 AP2 in terms of shooting flyers) or it's trying to do the job that the squad should be doing (wiping out a lot of weaker models, two Deathwatch Marines with flamers/heavy flamers on their own are more useful against bubble-wrap than the launcher). If you plan to keep jinking it to take advantage of the Launcher being twin-linked then I guess I can start to see a use, perhaps if it was combined with hurricane bolters and assault cannon, but at that point I start to wonder if it might be worth it to go with something else.

Recently (and this hasn't been added to the page yet because I didn't know about it at the time) Forgeworld has allowed the Deathwatch to use a lot of a 6 of their models (as seen here) and I can't help but feel the Xiphon-pattern Interceptor's better at shooting (being the ultimate anti-flyer and being fantastic at handling both armour and MC's in general) while if you only want a box for delivering your troops you should go with the Caestus Assault ram. The Caestus is an incredibly durable flyer while still being a complete menace after it's discharged its payload. They both cost more, yet the increase in the Xiphon's case is marginal if you take those upgrades on the Blackstar, and the Caestus can more than make up for it with the increase in durability and the invuln save.

Even if I'm wrong and the Corvus is all right for armour with that setup in a straight-up Deathwatch list, why would you choose it for that role when Imperial Agents allows you to get a Valkyrie? This is also assuming you don't want to get a Xiphon of course, but a Valkyrie is 60 points less, comes with two twin-linked lascannons (admittedly its missiles are weaker and it has fewer, though it will actually have more high-strength shots than a Las/Storm Corvus over the course of a game), its front and side armour are identical and its rocket pods can do a better job at horde mulching than the Blackstar Launcher (even if it's AP6 and doesn't have Ignores Cover, it still has two of them compared to the Blackstar's one). Even if the damage it puts out is almost the same it still costs a hell of a lot less.

As a final point, I feel that I should say straight-up Deathwatch lists aren't exactly a good idea with Imperial Agents because you don't have nearly as many options as what you're going to have from the Deathwatch Codex. This is one of the reasons I've been saying that armour is something you shouldn't have to worry about past the Stormstrike (admittedly I didn't really write it in the main page, though on other entries I've tried to make it clear this book supports existing armies) since if anything survives that it can be handled by something other than the Corvus. You've got so many things in the book that can do the job much better (Sisters, Jokaero, Valkyries, Dreadknights, surprise Legion of the Damned in the rear and Vindicare as prime examples) that I still can't help but feel it's a waste of an investment in this book. -- Triacom (talk) 18:33, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

The Valkyrie can only take one Lascannon, it's not Twin-Linked, it's only BS3, and the Valkyrie doesn't have Strafing Run or a Rerollable jink save. Two S4 AP6 large blasts are not comparable to a Twin-Linked, Cover Ignoring S4 AP5 large blasts (those ADL guardsmen getting a 2+ GTG save vs absolutely no save at all), especially when you compare the backup weapons (3 Multilaser and, potentially, 6 Heavy Bolter shots with either the Multilaser or one of the Heavy Bolters snap firing, with all of them being BS3 and not twin-linked vs 4 Assault Cannon and up to 6 Bolter Shots, all at full BS4 and Twin Linked, and that's ignoring that you can push it up to BS5. Plus, because of the efficient layout of weapons, the Blackstar has a freaking bomb launcher that can be used every turn and you can STILL fire the Blackstar Rocket Launcher, Assault Cannon, and Hurricane Bolters at full BS with absolutely no downsides. As a gunship, the Valkyrie and Blackstar are not even comparable. In a dogfight the Blackstar wins every time, even without the Stormstrike Missiles.

This is, of course, ignoring the fact that a Deathwatch Kill Team cannot start the game embarked on a Valkyrie. Aeronautica Imperialis Valkyries can only carry Inquisition, Scions, and Astra Militarium units.

As far as Deathwatch in agents being not good as a standalone army, that was my point. I play Codex: Deathwatch, so I value the Lascannon/Stormstrike combo more highly than someone playing Imperial Agents Deathwatch because long range, high strength shooting is hard for me to get, and using it as an attack skimmer for harassing light and medium vehicles is super useful for me, especially when it's backed up with some Lascannon Razorbacks and Dreads. I admit that it's a lot less useful to someone who's allying them in, so the Lascannon might not be an ideal choices, but I still don't think it's a bad one. -- DarthNader26 (talk) 1:45, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

I don't know how I fucked that up, but somehow I could swear it could take two and they were twin-linked (I turned out to be thinking of the Xiphon). Even so, yes it doesn't have twin-linked, but there's many ways to fix that either in the Inquisition or the Telepathica (both are good choices regardless of whatever else you have and both are still cheaper and more versatile than the Blackstar). That being said, I think those two blasts are comparable since if the Guardsmen are going to ground they're not likely to hit shit and it makes it easier to assault them. Admit it, it's not like you were planning to kill them outright with the Blackstar either (especially if they have an attached commissar to stop them from running away). If you're pinning them in place then as far as I'm concerned the Valkyrie's done its role, and you can use other squads, preferably ones with template weapons (that the Valkyrie is likely carrying) to finish the job.

The backup weapons are a little iffier to me. The heavy bolters have 50% more range, higher strength and they're AP4. They might not hit as often but they hurt a lot harder while ignoring anything short of power armour, though I'll agree that there's no contest between the multilaser and the assault cannon (even though the multilaser is 36" compared to the cannon's 24").

Yes it doesn't have the bombs, depending on what it's carrying however it doesn't need them, and mentioning the bombs kind of ruins your earlier point that it's got nothing if you stick with the assault cannon and Stormstrike doesn't it? That being said I have to admit that I'm not exactly sure whether or not it's a good idea to use the bombs as a general rule. Obviously situations may vary, but from what I've played you normally want the Blackstar to scoop the squad up after they're done because they're going to be a high-point squad that you don't want exposed which means one of two things: you either want to stay in one spot in hover (and in my experience that rarely works out well) or you come back around for them, which limits the bomb targets.

Maybe it's because I don't play with three Blackstars that I don't know the answer to this, but if you just want the large blast with the ability to ignore cover, why wouldn't you just stick with the bombs over the Launcher, and that way keep the Stormstrike missiles? If there's a squad hiding behind cover you're not going to be able to use the bombs and the Launcher at the same time thanks to how it's going to be positioned after it zooms over the unit.

I never said in this discussion that the Valkyrie should carry the Deathwatch. There's many other units you could load it up with, including Sisters via the Inquisition (they can all be part of the same faction) equipped with flamers to burn out whatever squads go to ground once they hide from the missiles, and this is much cheaper than a Deathwatch force for the same role (so it would make sense to me to get the Deathwatch equipped for something else).

How about this, given that Imperial Agents has a lot of other ways for hunting armour why not add in other ways of using the lascannon rather than say it's something to take for armour? Is it a good idea to leave the squad to go bombing and shooting side armour? Is it a good idea to save some Stormstrike missiles alongside a lascannon for rear armour and try to sink a high-point target by hovering and spinning around unexpectedly? If you're loading up the Blackstar what's some of the ideal loadouts for the squad inside?

As a quick example for that last point, I personally don't like the Infernus for the squad as I think it's ridiculously overcosted, being double the heavy flamer and just under the Frag Cannon. The Heavy Flamer can do the same job at short ranges (especially if you're dropped out of a Blackstar) while the Frag Cannon is easily better than a heavy bolter at 24" and less (aka where the squad will be from the enemy when they get dropped off), so I'd say that there's never a reason you want an Infernus for a squad taking a Blackstar. If you can add in specific situations where the weapons you put up shine (for example, mentioning the Blackstar Launcher being better than Stormstrike if you plan on jinking a lot) and the ideal weapons and role for the squad it's carrying, I think we can all walk away happy (don't forget too that in Imperial Agents the squad can be joined by other Independent Characters, and even Assassins such as an Eversor for extra melee, or a Culexus for bonus AP2/Psychic protection). -- Triacom (talk) 19:33, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

Uh, Assassins are Characters, not Independent Characters. They can't join up with a squad, ever, and Independent Operative prevents an IC from joining them. Second, the Ignores Cover bomb is only a small blast, as opposed to the S5 AP4 Large Blast. They're both useful, but in different situations.

My big argument is that the Corvus is built for adaptability. It can take all comers pretty effectively, and the two things it struggles to fight (high armor targets and MCs) are easily dispatched by the squad of angry murder-men inside. As far as the Bombs vs Blackstar Launcher comparison, again, it's an efficiency of firepower thing. Big scary things are usually hidden behind some kind of screening unit. You can drop the bomb on a screening unit as you pass over it, hit something in the backfield with your Hurricane Bolters/Assault Cannon/Blackstar Launchers, then next turn drop into hover, swing around, and pelt the screening unit again with a full volley, or hit a different unit. It's able to put damage on three different units over the course of two turns, while the squad inside puts damage on a 4th. That's some pretty widespread destruction that similar flieres can't match, and it's all pretty damn accurate and hard-hitting. Remember, the bombs can't be used in Hover Mode, so having the big anti-infantry hit to swing around is really useful, especially now that blasts and templates hit every level of a building, and especially especially given how important Ignores Cover is this edition.

And again, I'm well aware that the squad inside the Corvus can be geared to absolutely fuck cover camping infantry sideways, but is that really what you want to be using them for? Frag Cannons cost almost as much as a Heavy Thunder Hammer, and most factions don't really have problems fucking over infantry units. That Frag Cannon isn't going to do shit if you get into melee, and the whole draw of the Corvus Blackstar is that it's one of the very rare flying assault transports in the game. The Frag Cannon is lovely, but not on a squad that's going to be locked in melee for any amount of time. Plus, if all you wanted to do was clear GEQs from cover it's a lot easier to stick an all-flamer squad in a Drop Pod and call it a day (for reference, you can get a Furor Kill Team out of Codex: Deathwatch with 5 Flamers and Bolt Guns (with the special ammo. That's full-on Flamers, not Combi-Flamers too) and a Terminator with a Heavy Flamer that rerolls 1s to hit against a Force Org Slot (with their Bolters) AND rerolls all to wounds in a drop pod for roughly the same cost as a Corvus Blackstar by itself).

The Corvus is useful because it's a 12 man assault transport AND a flier AND it can be geared to fight hordes and light armor or heavy armor and MCs AND it's a bomber AND it has easy access to a lot of Twin-Linked AND it can choose Strafing Run or Rerollable Jink saves. It's versatile, adaptable, and multi-threat capable of putting the hurt on almost any unit in the game except for literally the toughest, most durable things. It's the same as Deathwatch as a faction. The Infernus Heavy Bolter is the same way. It might not seem super inspiring if you only want the squad to deal with a single, specific threat (like a cover-camping horde), but when you look at the squad as a powerful and adaptable generalist suddenly you can start to see the value of a heavy bolter you can fire on the move without snap shooting (it's Assault 3, yo), that can then put out a heavy flamer wall of death. S5 AP4 is way more consistent than S6 Rending at fucking most horde targets up and it has longer range than a frag cannon and better mobility than a heavy bolter. If you're bringing an Imperial Agents Deathwatch squad, you're bringing them for their generalist capabilities. If you're really hunting a specific target, you're going to build a Kill Team out of the Deathwatch Codex, 'cause Mission Tactics + Doctrines (for rerolling ALL to wounds against specific targets) is way more destructive than the Aquila Doctrine here and you can take them as standalone formations. -- DarthNader26 (talk) 20:00, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

Nice try, but technically there's no rule that prevents Characters from joining squads before the game starts, they just can't voluntarily leave them. This has come up before on these talk pages, specifically with the 30k Mechanicum tactics page where Forgeworld used that loophole as a way to attach Characters (as in models who had Character but didn't have Independent Character) to units of Monstrous Creatures, which wouldn't have been able to happen if they had IC (and then they made it even clearer in the Mechanicum book they released later). So with that in mind it's totally possible to attach a Culexus or Eversor to a unit, they just can't leave the unit so you better be sure you're getting your points worth.

I think I'll tell you my thought process when writing up that initial bit on the Corvus: "The squad inside can be built to counter the things the Corvus has problems with, so the Corvus is ideally built to handle what the squad won't want to." It's a tip that's helped me on many games since you don't need the transport and the unit to be built to do the exact same thing (especially since Imperial Agents has many good alternatives), and while I was at work I came up with a possible reason for a divergent experience with the Corvus. I don't play Deathwatch on their own, and as such I don't take 3 Corvus Blackstars. Is the outcome really that much different when you take that many? To be honest I wouldn't be surprised if it is since that happens in many lists (just look at D-99 for an army that becomes a lot more effective the more fliers it has).

If you're trying to cover all the bases with just the Veterans and the Corvus, then in that case I can see you taking the lascannon, but if your anti-armour is already covered elsewhere (by any of the options I mentioned in the brackets above as a quick example), then how would you build the Corvus, especially if you're not using them as the main force and are only bringing 1-2 of them at most?

I do get what you mean by screening units and that's a pretty fair point. I'm still not so sure that the Blackstar Launcher's the way to go about getting rid of them as opposed to... pretty much every ally available (even Grey Knight Interceptors can dash in to make a wall between the bubble-wrap and the Deathwatch) because that means you can't concuss the big scary monster that your guys are going to be charging. If you fuck up then the monster, so long as they're quicker than I1, can kill your Heavy Thunder Hammers and Thunder Hammer (which is also likely a Blackshield) and that's a lot of points you just lost.

Yes if I just wanted to get rid of cover-campers I'd also recommend a Drop Pod, unfortunately the Deathwatch in Imperial Agents cannot get them and as such I'm not including them in this discussion. Imperial Agents is limiting in a lot of ways (just look at the available Grey Knights) so certain tactics simply cannot be used by the presented detachments.

I have no disagreements about the Corvus' versatility, but I think you have to agree that it's better in some ways than it is in others. It can be used to take on Heavy Armour, but AV13-14 is mainly threatened by its lascannon, and as I mentioned above it only gets one shot a turn. I already mentioned that we might have a divergent experience due to how many we take, and we should both be able to agree that as far as dealing with armour goes, Imperial Agents has better options available.

As for the points I haven't gotten to yet, the Frag Cannon is a gun that performs very well in mid to close ranges and even in melee it gives S6 Wall of Death (combine it with a Xenos Inquisitor's rad grenades to cause Instant Death to T4) and I also didn't recommend it for melee use. I recommended it for close range use over the Infernus because it's marginally more and gives a much better performance if it's being delivered by a Blackstar, while if you don't want to spend so much on it and don't think you'll need it then you should get the Heavy Flamer since it can do just as well. The point of that example was for me to give an idea of what you don't want Veterans on a Blackstar to carry as there's no reason to give them an Infernus (it's just not efficient).

About the Infernus, I think that would be a good option if it were cheaper as they bloat up your points cost for far too little payoff. Yes the Frag Cannon's 12" shorter, however it's also far deadlier and cracks open more targets (not to mention at all of its available ranges it can ID T3), and there's not much reason as to why your Deathwatch will be more than 24" away from their assigned targets anyway beyond the first game turn (if they're not in the Corvus, and even then they should still have some other transport to get within range as soon as possible), especially if you want to take advantage of Specialist Ammunition (as only the Kraken is more than 30" for regular bolters, while the Stalker rounds are all Heavy). Generally if there's a squad you want heavy bolters to deal with, then heavy bolters are perfectly fine and if there's a squad that you want heavy flamers for, then heavy flamers will do perfectly fine (both being half the cost of the Infernus). To me the Infernus is the weird cross between long-ranged and short-ranged that we only really saw before in the design for the original Land Raider, and it didn't work there either. If you say they're good for running around and capping objectives while putting out a decent amount of firepower at long range, then there's other units in Imperial Agents that can cap objectives just as well while remaining either far cheaper (look at henchman warbands) or are much faster (look at Grey Knight Interceptors) while being covered by good long-ranged firepower at the same time, so the Infernus doesn't have nearly as useful a role in this book as it would in the regular Deathwatch book.

For the record I think you're understating how nice it is to have both Aquila Doctrine and Mission Tactics without having to pay the mandatory character tax. So long as they're fighting their target they have Preferred Enemy in all but name (even if they're not fighting their listed target they still always get to re-roll 1's on To Wound rolls), which is nothing to sneeze at and with those rules it's perfectly fine to build a unit specifically to kill one target. Re-rolling all To Wound rolls is nice, but most of the time I've seen them in action they've usually got Strength boosting weapons (power axes, the two hammers) or lightning claws so I'd argue that being able to re-roll half your hits is better, since with most strength boosting weapons you'll already hurt non-MC's on 2's (and as such are already re-rolling all missed Wounds). Even against models where you need 4's To Wound the dropoff is minimal (if you have 3 attacks that hit on 3's and wound on 4's you cause 1.408 Wounds with Aquila Doctrine and 1.500 Wounds with your examples). Anything better than a 4+ on your To Wound roll will favour Aquila doctrine (and honestly not too many armies have T8 monstrous creatures, if you're up against those then take the Heavy Thunder Hammer) so I'm going to have to go with the one that can cover more roles.

Here's another thought, if there's something that a model on this page can do, yet another model from Imperial Agents can do better then how about we make a mention of that and write it off? I'm very certain I've done that in a few entries, since there's little to no point in taking something that somebody else can do better, and it's one of the main reasons that I didn't recommend taking the lascannon on the Corvus. -- Triacom (talk) 03:18, 4 March 2017 (UTC)