Talk:Warhammer 40,000/Tactics/Solar Auxilia (30k)

Forgeworlds Combat Augment Array emails

• Does anybody have a link to the emails Forgeworld supposedly sent regarding the Combat Augment Array? I've seen peoplesay emails have confirmed this but I've also seen people lie about this and googling it has gotten me nowhere. If nobody responds I'll be removing that blurb about emails confirming it and changing it back to its ambiguous nature. - Triacom (talk) 05:27, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

I just did a quick google search for any discussions on the topic and found this, Combat Array. (post #10) To be honest the original wording is horribly ambiguous as to "any dice roll" can equally mean a single dice or multiple dice depending where you put your emphasis. Using the meaning "Any (and all) dice roll(s)" creates something terribly broken beyond anything the game has ever seen, particularly when you can have infinite nanyte guns, auto-killing Paragon blades or endless plasma moritat... You could call this guy a liar, but it could go either way depending on your reading of the rules and only That Guy would think that infinite sixes is remotely fair or balanced. I believe this guy's email is genuine, since it has too much common sense about it. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 07:32, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Just as a quick literary analysis just to ilustrate how many variations you can create using the wording - "Any Dice Roll" - even using the plural of die>dice; use of the singular "Any Dice Roll" could equate to "any number of dice thrown in any singular roll (ie: to-hit or to-wound)". Just as much as it could mean to "Any and all dice in any roll at any time that turn". You could also instead put your emphasis on "Once per Game" at the beginning of the rule, implying that as soon as you've used your automatic 6 on "Any dice roll" then that stops you using any more sixes. We can all see that it's Skub incarnate. However, if you're trying to argue the most powerful viewpoint for a competitive analysis it might be best to go with the most sensible answer, since no tournament environment I know has ever even used 30k armies let alone tested their rules wording but you can bet your balls that they'll decide on something sensible quite quickly. If you're arguing from a casual viewpoint then people are probably going to find no-one wants to play against nanyte blaster chain reaction that auto-rolls sixes and creates 20 auto-wounding AP2 large blast markers over a 20 man squad --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 08:44, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

• I just got a reply from forgeworld on this, they confirmed to me that it applies to a single roll of one dice once. Coincidentally I also asked about the order of operations regarding modifiers to tests with set values, so mortarion and ferrus manus do get +1 to deny the witch and battlesmith respectively, I also asked how the navigator aesthetic disruption works, they didn't have a 7th edition equivalent unfortunately. If you don't trust me enough to take my word I can sort out a screen dump of the email at a later time, either that or you could email forgeworld yourself --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 21:43, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

• Thanks for the reply, I trust you but that doesn't mean I don't want proof (if I didn't trust you I'd change the main article), if I tell this to other people then it's hearsay as I don't have a source to cite and I figured it would be easier if somebody who already has the emails just posts a screenshot of them since you were the one who wrote that bit about their emails confirming it (though I didn't know at the time that you weren't the one with the email). I do appreciate you asking about Mortarion and Ferrus though, that'll be something I can post in the relevant discussions to permanently settle some arguments if a screenshot is posted. -- Triacom (talk) 02:38, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

The questions are in the picture summary

• Ask, and ye shall recieve. As noted, the questions are in the file summary. Forgeworld have always been really good in answering my rules queries and I have sent them quite a handful over the years. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 07:49, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Co-ordinated Fire Protocols

"...the tanks firing at the selected target gain +1BS". Does this mean ALL tanks on the army that fire on that unit gain the bonus or just the squad with the Co-ordinated Fire rule? Like they were Markerlights or some sort? -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 03:07, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

• I'm inclined to assume its just the unit currently shooting, not all the tanks in the army. Its what it seems like to me, fell free to make your own call.

Velitaris vs Terminator Deathstar

Mathhammertime! By some miracle you manage to get the charge, your opponent is somehow armed with PF only and somehow didn't shoot the hell out of you in Shooting Phase, so your 10 Velitaris with axes, Medic and LM (Paragon, Displacer, EW) charge 10 Cataphractii Terminators with Praetor armed with Paragon Blade. LM issues challenge, Sergeant answers. Praetor: 4 attacks, 2,6 hits, 2,2 unsaved, 1,5 after FNP. LM: 3 attacks, 2 hit, 1,5 wounds (counting auto-wound), 0,75 unsaved. Velitaris: 28 attacks (with 5 WS and PE), 21,77 hits, 13,303 wounds, 6,65 unsaved. Terminators: 18 attacks, 9 hits, 7,5 unsaved (no FNP). Sergeant (he may be still alive at this moment): 3 attacks, 1,5 hits, 1,25 wounds, 0,41 unsaved 0,2 of which teleport LM away. Solar Auxillia has lost by two wounds, and it only gets worse from that moment. What am I trying to prove? Solar Auxilia is not a melee army, especially when you play against tailored list. While Household Retinue is cool and that, they lack transports. Sure, you can buy Dracosans or buy Arvus Lighters for MU of both them and Veliratis so the enemy wouldn't be able to concentrate fire on one unit, but why are you playing Auxillia in the first place then?

First of all, getting the charge on 11 terminators like that (including the Praetor) isn't very hard considering that in your specific example they wouldn't be able to run and couldn't get a transport barring a Spartan (otherwise they move normally while you have Move Through Cover which'll make the charge easier), and since the example doesn't factor in transports it's a moot point anyway. I also don't know why you're pitting them up against 10 Cataphractii either, the example did not use Cataphractii armour (and you do want to Sweep Advance, especially if you're up against Auxillia blobs) so they actually cause a whopping 9.376 Wounds against that example (meaning they win combat by 1 in that example, not lose it, I also didn't include the medic since he causes so little damage it's negligible). I also don't know why you're having the LM challenge and not the Praetor, or why the Sergeant accepted the challenge instead of the Preator when in the example the two are fighting each other, which means the LM would be able to tank all of the Wounds the Praetor can put out, until the rest of his squad can help him out after finishing off whatever terminators are left in Round 2. For the record, the LM with that loadout will take off almost 1 Wound off the Praetor per turn (you also forgot to give them Preferred Enemy), and at the end of Round 2 the Veletaris would put another Wound (and a bit) on the Praetor anyway which will finish him off, and all without dying themselves (assuming the termie sergeant isn't the last to die, and even if he is the medic and the LM both survive which is still a win considering the massive points difference between the two units), and that's also after the last remaining marine fails his save. In short, the Household Retinue can do exactly what it's described as doing. -- Triacom (talk) 06:43, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

Oh boy, where do I even start... Terminators could get a Caestus Assault Ram, they can ride a Mastodon, and yes, Spartan is pretty standart option. If your opponent footslogs them, he is retarded. If you name anything like that which will help Retinue to get the charge bar fortifications, ok, you've won. Or your enemy will shoot the hell out of your guys, if he's not retarded. Fielding full PF squad is also retarded, see my comment on soaking up casualties. Praetor refuses to accept challenge because it's fucking stupid to risk ID on him, otherwise, your opponent is retarded. Solar Auxillia is a shooty army, their bombardment is AP2, they have Dracosan's Demolishers, so fielding Tartaros against them is classic example of doing it wrong, like "ok, you've successfully destroyed that squad in one turn thanks to SA, now choke on this big pieplate and that lascannons". LM issues challenge because he charges, so he has to do it first. I did not forget to give them PE, any rerolls already included in calculations (ok, forgot on LM). See how many depends on your opponent being retarded? That's not to assume Deasthstar has any Primus-Medicae or Chaplains, the latter of which is literally bane of your infantry if your opponent is oldschool and armed him with a Maul as Crozius. Also, have you ever played against or for Solar Auxillia? --Flutist (talk) 10:53, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

No, 11 Terminators cannot get a Caestus Assault Ram, though I did forget about the Mastodon, however transports aren't used in that example, much like how pre-assault shooting isn't used (both from the Veletaris and the rest of the army), or how overwatch from the Termies isn't used, and even if they did get a transport you could just say that the Auxilia or allied Mechanicus blew it up, because once again, it's not mentioned in the example you're arguing against so you can't bring it up. The Praetor doesn't refuse the challenge because in the example, that's what happens, you cannot try to do the math of the example while also ignoring what happens in the example. If you field Cataphractii against Auxilia and they're outfitted for combat, you're almost never going to get those points back, because you'll be either stuck in combat against a big shooty squad for several turns that costs nowhere near as many points, or you'll beat the squad in one turn, they'll flee, and regroup immediately while you get shot to pieces. As you've said Termies have many good transport options, so fielding Tartaros Armour isn't that big of a deal since they should be in combat right after they disembark anyway, and it's far better to kill a squad rather than having the squad break, still alive, while the Termies get shot to shit, at least Tartaros will kill one or two units, Cataphractii might not even do that. Yes a lot depends on your opponent being stupid, if you want you can correct the example, however you can't say the example is wrong, because it is not (Primus Medicae and Chaplains are also not mentioned so you cannot use them either). -- Triacom (talk) 17:36, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

Once again: opponent is not a moron. If example is written featuring retarded opponent (because author had either no experience of playing game with or against SA or was overexited with new tactics he had just discovered), it's everyone's duty to correct it. While describing the use of squad, you have to keep ALL factors in mind, not just stats, but also point cost, army synergy and transport options. Melee Retinue fails miserably at both synergy and transports. Caestus can totally take 9 Terminators and Praetor and absolutely reliably gives them the charge distance they need, being Flyer. 10-man Terminator Squads are invariably deathstars, which usually have both Praetor and at least 1 support character for maximum synergy. Cataphractii are totally better against a SA skilled opponeent, because Tempest Grenades for Spartan and Krakens for Caestus, then your squad will slowly move towards your opponent (no, Run would not help as much as 4++ would) while he shoots the hell out of you. While lacking infantry AP2 options, SA has Demolishers and fucking Infernus as HS, and oh boy do they hurt. On charge though, Terminators do just enough damage to completely fuck 20-man Tercio (if it wasn't in Close Formation Fighting, which you totally should abuse to spam piplates on it in that case). The scattered survivors of Terminator assault usually pose no threat - but once again, all guns are pointed at you in following shooting phase. However, if even 1 Terminator survived, SA is in trouble - my last survivng Sergeant once held whole Tercio for 3 full phases. I've played my share of games against SA with best player in gaming community, lost every single one, observed him using different tactics - and Arvus + Volkite Retinue is the most effective this far, while melee Retinue didn't manage to charge me even once. --Flutist (talk) 18:17, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

The opponent isn't a moron? The opponent in that example armed all their Terminators with Powerfists and is bringing a squad of 10 with an attached Praetor to deal with fucking Auxilia, not to mention they accepted the challenge with their Praetor. I think it's pretty clear that they are a moron. Yes it's everyone's duty to correct a bad example, however you cannot say that an example is wrong when all the math adds up correctly, which is what I took issue with. If you want to factor in transports, overwatch, pre-assault shooting and so on, then you go right ahead, I'm not going to stop you, and in fact I didn't try to do that on the main page. What I will attempt to stop is arguments appearing on the main page from when one person says something is bad, but they don't bother trying to remove the information they claim is bad. The Caestus can take 9 Termies and the Praetor, however in the example there's 10 Termies and the Praetor, so no, those couldn't get a Caestus. For the record too, if that squad charged the Veletaris, they'd likely be charging through cover, as well as through a grav-shield generator and shroud grenades, and that's if they don't have to bust open whatever transport the squad's hiding inside in the first place (ie it's not a good idea to charge them like that with an extremely expensive squad). They'd kill some of the squad while the LM teleports away and the rest break and flee, not making their points back before they're shot to shit by AP2 weaponry and the Veletaris regroup the next turn anyway. Scattered survivors won't really pose much of a threat, however not Sweeping Advancing can deny you a valuable kill point and if we really wanted to be technical, Solar Auxilia wouldn't/shouldn't fight against Termies anyway because using non-Legion-specific Termies against Auxilia is a bad idea (and even a lot of Legion-specific ones are bad ideas unless you have a very good plan) because unless your opponent is stupid they're not going to make their points back since there's nothing expensive enough for them to fight to make bringing them worth it, and I think even you can agree that example you gave isn't the norm. I'm also not saying that melee Retinues are the best option, I'm just saying they're not a bad one because I've seen devastating counter-charges that happen thanks to cover + Grav-wave generator fucking over the opponent (in case you're curious, it was actually a squad of 15 Assault Marines the Retinue charged, and they fucked them up badly, though the Retinue did also have Medicae and LM and just that squad was enough for them to make their points back as the Marines ended up losing combat by 8). As the page currently is I don't have an issue with anything aside from the bit about the Grav-wave generator not being a good idea even in cover, which isn't true since losing 4" on average (5" at worst) can easily lead to devastating failed charges (in my opinion, that item's a little OP). -- Triacom (talk) 23:37, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

Hey here's some advice if you want to win against that SA buddy of yours Flutist, though I'd only recommend doing this if both of you are fine with playing dirty. Ask your buddy to let you use a Shattered Legion, Make Crysos Morturg your Warlord, take a Praetor for the Death Guard's The Reaping Rite of War, make the allied Astartes Blood Angels. You'll be allied to use Heavy Support Squads as Troops, Blood Angels can give every one of those Astartes Assault Cannons (they instant-death SA and go right through their armour, allowing them to wipe out huge amounts of SA per turn) and abuse his guaranteed Master of Ambush and Endurance abilities. Rad Grenades wouldn't be amiss on a few squads either, Infiltrating with Assault Marines is basically getting them a guaranteed 2nd turn charge, especially if they Infiltrate in an area where they can't normally be seen (remember, The Reaping gives everyone Move Through Cover so you can hide them wherever without worry) and Rad Grenades will allow all Assault Marines to ID SA, making those Infiltrating Assault Squads World Eaters will also fuck SA since they can now ID with all of their attacks while ignoring the SA's armour (thanks to Chainaxes). For the record I usually don't like lists like these as I play for fun, and if you're fine with your regular lists then more power to you. -- Triacom (talk) 07:06, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

No tactics should be written assuming an opponent is mentally disabled, that's what I'm trying to say, and even if he is, he'll sure learn something from his defeat and will either adapt his tactics or ask advice from friends or online. I do not count myself some sort of tactics messiah, so if I see any information I can't quite agree upon, but not wrong in a way of rules or something, I'd rather give alternative option explaining why it is wrong, not delete it outright, because that would be censorship. Maybe a guy who wrote it is some sort of tactical genius and it works perfectly in his hands, who knows. Terminators vs SA is common sight in tournaments in heavy-Marine or Mechanicum meta, where there is little point in tailoring a list against puny humans, so you have to improvise. Thank you for the advice, but I play Word Bearers (with no Daemons as allies... yet) in full-WYSIWYG community, and the main problem with Shattered Legions is that your opponent can just say "Nope" before the game and there would be nothing wrong with it. Have an Orbital Assault list with hell lot of Dreadnoughts in mind though. —Flutist (talk)

And I agreed that it's everyone's duty to correct a bad example, the main reasons I initially undid your edit was because you also used a bad example (Termies without Unwieldy being just as bad an example as Termies with Unwieldy, as opposed to something that's going to be better used on Auxilia like Assault Marines which according to your initial advice the Retinue wouldn't be able to handle) and you also used strikethroughs, which unless you're using a joke, are despised on this wiki. It's also why I said you should either correct the information or don't bother, alternate opinions can be fine if they're giving two entirely different takes on things, but when you add in another paragraph whose main purpose is to argue against the paragraph right before it, then that's a bad edit. Ah, so you're using an all-comers list, see when you started talking about the Termies list-tailoring against SA I was really wondering why you'd bring them when other squads can do the same job so much better and for much less. Also I'd figure that if you've got an unbroken loss record against an Auxilia player they wouldn't mind giving you a bit of a handicap by allowing you to use Shattered Legions, if for no other reason than to challenge themselves since they'll have to refine their tactics and improve their army because of this. As an example, in the height of 7th edition in Warhammer Fantasy I had an unbroken win record against a friend of mine's Orcs and Goblins. It didn't matter what units he brought or what tactics he tried, I was still able to pull out consistent wins, so I gave him a 250-500 point handicap (the main penalty was that one of the units would get me double victory points if I destroyed it). -- Triacom (talk) 19:09, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

• Maybe I misspoke when I said you "deleted" points on the main page, as you just did strikethroughs on them. Still though Flutist we've already gone through this before, it's fine to list a different opinion, you just need to make it clear that's what it is rather than try to contradict an earlier point which helps nobody. -- Triacom (talk) 16:49, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

The Stormlord is an Assault Vehicle

Because:

1. It is treated as open-topped for embarking and disembarking purposes.

2. Therefore, for embarking and disembarking purposes, it is Open-topped.

3. So it either a) has Open-topped ruleswhile disembarking or b) has all Open-topped rules related to disembarking. Doesn't really matter which.

4. a) makes more sense because they added the note about the damage chart and troop bay.

5. So either way, it has the Assault Vehicle special rule, because the Assault Vehicle rule checks off when you disembark. When you disembarked, the vehicle was Open-topped or could be considered to be open-topped for everything you were doing, so it had the Assault Vehicle special rule.

6. Therefore, you CAN charge out of a Stormlord.

• [[1]] Nope, you can't. --Flutist (talk) 21:52, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

• • [[2]] [[3]] Uh, sure about that? If they gave an answer in the past, why would they just use a "rule of cool" form letter now?

• • • Pretty sure. FW has a team of independent operators on FB, but only 1 or 2 are actually competent. You may or may not believe me, but this is the only answer I got without explaining freakin' basic rules to someone supposed to write ones. You may, of course, send an email, but the last 3 ones I wrote remain unanswered to this day. --Flutist (talk) 10:04, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

Why SA do decently in melee.

Let's talk about the Lord Marshall and his household retinue, and why you might want them in melee. First of all, unless your opponent is playing World Eaters, there are no standard MEQ squads that are going to ignore your save, at all. Charge anyone aside from some legion-specific units and vehicles and you're going to come out on top. You're also not going to worry about mauls against the Lord Marshall since most armies won't take them on their CC characters, and even if they did you can just pick Eternal Warrior and laugh at your opponent as you get a 2+ save to their 4+ save (assuming they have a 4+ invulnerable), eventually killing them in assault anyway. Furthermore your shooting should easily allow you to pick your targets, since there's very little reason why you should be getting into combat with a legion-specific unit that doesn't have unwieldy, and most of those legion-specific units are forced to take unwieldy weapons anyway. Saying that the Lord Marshall and Household retinue can't compete in melee is laughable since there's so many MEQ squads they tear apart (while costing less), even without getting the charge. -- Triacom (talk) 06:59, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Now let's talk why the moment somebody actually tries it on the tabletop they gonna have their asses handed to them: first, "standard MEQ squads" include Assault marines, Veterans, Honour Guard etc - all of those can take Power Weapons, even lowly sergeants with it can ID your LM with I4 using a Power Maul (you seem to assume someone's gonna give their Praetor a Power Maul - no, but it's not 8th, and not-Independent Characters are a thing), and if you're taking Eternal Warrior instead of a trait that would really synergize with the rest of your forces, you're playing the wrong army; second, SA lacks any Assault Transports, meaning any opponent without mental issues will blast your squishy T3 4+ meatbags very quickly, and with their 6" move they won't be able to "choose their targets" as in case of shooting; third, well, squishy T3 meatbags with 4+ aren't very tough even with Medic attached to them, and the only reliable method of delivering them into the thick of it is Arvus, and with Augur Scanners buffed it's not an extremely viable option either; fourth, while your LM is in combat, the rest of SA doesn't benefit from High Command. Mathhammer is good and all, and they look good on paper, but on the tabletop... not so much, and definitely not something to recommend.--79.111.80.0 18:04, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Veterans and Honour Guard are not 'standard MEQ squads', those are Elite choices. Assault Squads can also have 4 mauls at maximum if there's 20 marines in the squad not including the Sergeant because he'll be dead before he can use his (more on that in a moment). Even if they have this loadout and have 20 marines who can all attack the SA they need to get the charge through the Grav-wave Generator and Shroud Bombs, otherwise they're going to get charged. In that event, the Household Retinue are going to suffer 6.666 Wounds, they're doing to dish back 6.675 wounds (power axe + pistol + Preferred Enemy + Charging + Medicae + Power Fist on Prime), and the Lord Marshall is going to kill the Sergeant with 1.815 wounds (causing 8.716 wounds in total). The Assault Squad's lost by 2 points, they need to test to stay on Ld 6, average result says they fail that test and they have a good chance of getting caught in a sweeping advance. The end, they die. Now let's talk about why Mauls aren't an issue for the Lord Marshall if they're on Sergeants. Take a Charnabal Sabre, he's now striking before MEQ's (while still striking with his Paragon Blade), the end. He's going to kill that Sergeant before he can even attack and as such they aren't a problem for him. Next up is the Warlord Trait, if your plan is to tear shit up in melee then the Warlord Trait is synergizing with your list since it's keeping your general alive and granting all of your Household Retinues preferred enemy, not to mention if he gets into a fight with a Praetor he can keep them there until the Praetor's squad is killed (or until he teleports away). Next let's talk about ideal targets, Honour Guard and Veteran Squads are not idea targets for obvious reasons, that's why you just shoot them (and also why there's a warning in the LM about them). That's what I'm talking about when I say they can pick who they engage with, if you don't want to take on those marines, then don't. Blast them and laugh at the idiot who wasted points making them into CC squads when they're never going to get there. I can attest to seeing tabletop games where Assault Marines have tried to wipe out the SA Household Retinue before, and it doesn't end well for them because they completely whiffed their rolls and lost even worse than this, same with Legion-specific units that have to have Unwieldy weapons. If your argument is that the Mathhammer adds up but it still won't work on the tabletop for some reason, then you don't have an argument. -- Triacom (talk) 19:38, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

I feel I should also add that you misunderstand the main point of taking an Assault squad in a mostly shooting-based army. It isn't to get them to take the fight to the enemy, it's to deal with sudden threats that are encroaching on your dudes. You're thinking of them as if they're meant to be loaded up into a Spartan and not used to provide support for the vulnerable parts of your force. -- Triacom (talk) 19:42, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

Two more things I'm also going to bring up before you get to it is the price and protracted combats. A Household Retinue (minus shroud bombs) with a kitted-out Lord Marshall is still cheaper than an Assault Squad, in other words, by winning this combat they're going to make their points back. Also in a protracted combat while the Household Retinue are all going to die (alongside the Medicae) they and the Lord Marshall can and will grind down the Assault Squad. Even without the Marines breaking and running they're going to be winning that combat. -- Triacom (talk) 20:01, 15 September 2018 (UTC)