Talk:Warhammer 40,000/Tactics/Space Marine Legion List (30k)

From 1d4chan

Have seen a World Eater's Heresy army in action, including Angron. Will add tactica once I collect my notes. Oh, also a Death Guard force too.

very Good. My Sons of Horus are getting an outing soon, will add more notes then. --Ahriman's Aide 00:29, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

How come there is no Stormbird? Since you are encouraged to have large units, and the stormbird could carry up to 100 space marines and was in frequent use at the time, why wouldn't it be sold? Besides some Stormbirds are used in 40k by the chaos space marines, so it could be used for more than one codex.

There are at least two more books in the Horus Heresy series, so there's hope yet. I think the next book is supposed to be called "Massacre", and will be about the Drop Site Massacre on Isstvan V. That battle featured deployments by Thunderhawks and Stormbirds, so we could get the Stormbird as early as then. --Not LongPoster Again (talk) 14:00, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

They have plans to eventually make a stormbird, but not for several books at least.

Contents

Mechanicus Detachment[edit]

Hey guys, should the Tech-fellas have their own tactica? I know it's a mini codex, but I think it would relive the page a bit. Let me know. -Silver (talk) 17:40, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

No, there's nowhere near enough for the Mechanicus to have their own page. I mean, it's basically one Troops choice, one special character HQ choice, a couple vehicles, and a bunch of super heavies. Also, if I remember correctly, Betrayal says it's mostly for use as allies, not a full army list in its own right (I might be confusing with the WFB's Chaos Dwarfs in Tamurkhan though...) Dok (talk)

Looks like with they'll be adding Cybernetica soon. When do we want to branch off? I mean I'm hoping for a full army list in September, but it's looking like we'll have two troops, a generic HQ, a FA, hopefully an elite, and heavy stuff in massacre part one. Perhaps part two will carry on the trend? Anyways, I agree with silver in the long term, possibly the short term, depending upon what massacre gives us.

  • Yeah, I've changed my mind, what with Part 2 coming out soon, and the possibility to have a Sisters of Silence or Adeptus Custodes army/allied detachment thing. I'm almost thinking we should make a 6th Edition Tactics/Horus Heresy/Adeptus Mechanicus, ...Horus Heresy/Legion List, etc., so that nobody thinks there's suddenly an AdMech army in the game. I don't really know how to do any of that though, so my opinion is kinda moot anyway. Dok (talk)

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/6th_Edition_Tactics/_30k/Mechanicum Your wish is my command.

I'm thinking we'll keep the old one around as an allies advice segment.

Why even make the page? The AdMech is almost certainly meant to be used as an allied detachment only, and I expect the same for the Custodes and the Sisters of Silence. Wait until Massacre comes out before creating unnecessary pages.--Newerfag (talk) 22:43, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Because some of us play admech. Also Massacre is out. If the followers of the machine god had been intended only for allies, they'd not have gotten a full list in massacre. This is forgeworld we're talking they don't do things half assed.

I'd recommend taking the mechanicum section out, now that they actually have three separate lists spread over the three books which are now thankfully in their rightful place on the mechanicum's own tactica... it's just an old rehash on this page at this point. I'd leave the Thallax & Castellax behind though, since you CAN take them in your core legion army using a cortex controller. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 07:06, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

As the Tahagmata list, is practically the Ordo-reductor and Legio-Cybernetica combined (It even lets you use Calleb Decima), it may be prudent to make that the majority of the article and heavily reduce the content of the aforementioned lists as its largely repetition of stuff that could be shoved in Tahagmata(Some fucking shit fuck anon who wrote a decent chunk of that page)

How 2 Legion[edit]

Two questions: why are the rules for the Legions in book 2 already in the page? Was there some sort of preview of the book? Second: How do you actually play the Legion? Same as regular Marines (Tacticals on objectives with transports as blocks of terrain, fire support to cover them, assault units attack weak points) or with something of a twist? - Biggus Berrus (talk) 12:04, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

I was at the Horus Heresy Weekender, when they previewed all the new units and characters for Massacre, so I have it on good authority that's what they are (And anyone else who was there can back me up). As for how the Legion Plays, it's very unlike a 40k Chapter. It relies on big blocks of infantry and every part doing a different job, kind of like Eldar (So Tactical Support squads for special weapons, Heavy Support squads for fire support ETC) --Ahriman's Aide (talk) 12:18, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
So for 2k points, something like 2 big blocks of Tacticals, an assault squad for massed chopping power, a couple of Support and Heavy squads for fire support, a Caestus full of Terminators and maybe a tank or two and that's about it? - Biggus Berrus (talk) 12:45, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
More like 2 big blocks of Tacticals, an assault squad, a couple of Support and Heavy squads for fire support and that's it. Legion lists are very expensive in points, and despite the big squad sizes can't fit very much in. Certainally not as much as a 40k force. They have big squads, but not very many of them.

Angron[edit]

From my reading of the rules, it seems more like the Butcher's Nails give him extra attacks until he hits 10 attacks base, not 10 extra attacks. It's also unclear to me whether he's supposed to get an extra attack from the pistol (compare to a Banshee Exarch with mirrorswords).

      10 attacks base on his stat line, he would still benefit from 2 CCWs and charging

Confirmation of Tournament legality.[edit]

Can I have a link please, I would really love a link!

Tacticas for each legion[edit]

  • So, shall we start making tacticas for each legion, given that their rules and foc are substantiatively different?

I'd advise keeping the main tactica around so long as there are undifferentiated legions, of course.

    • No. The current differences between the legions are too small to justify the creation of a different chapter for each Legion.--Newerfag (talk) 22:43, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
  • I disagree, Iron Hands are going to have a very different play style from Night Lords. Also the page is getting really cluttered.
  • Maybe put a comparison of the legion special rules at the start, kind of like the comparison of chapter tactics in the 40k sheet?
  • I find the current layout sufficient and like the current different sections fot the individual legions but maybe we should put individual tactics for the legions in those sections because as the guy 2 comments up said play style will vary between legions Gutsm3k (talk) 21:13, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Given that some units get benefits from many Legions, it's better to put these sinergies below each unit entry, rather than repeat it on Individual Legion sections or at the very end. If we do this correctly, the unit section won't look bloated, but rather will provide Simultaneous and Devastating, Defensive comparisons for multiple legions. Zerghalo2 (talk) 12:32, 19 October 2014
  • Do you guys think we should revisit this with 8th edition later? Perhaps having the central page as we do now with the Legion tactics going into a different page that encompasses more? - May 20th, 2017
As of right now, 8th edition isn't going to affect 30k stuff. If it does later we'll just need to make a new page, and personally I'm against individual tacticas since the Legions, while having their own playstyles certainly don't change the fundamentals of the army. -- Triacom (talk) 02:54, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

Allies[edit]

As the legion list is tournament legal and can be played in regular 40k now it it possible to ally a legion list with some of the regular 40k armies? Gutsm3k (talk) 21:09, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

  • The 30k rules would specifically exclude mention of 40k armies otherwise it would break the flow of the books. I don't think GW will ever write a 30>40k allies chart outside of references to Codex: Eldar/Orks. If you want to ally them both it would depend on your tournament organiser, or with what you might agree with your opponent on the day.--Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 06:10, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, I'm wanting to run a tagmhata list with my minotaurs so hopefully they will allow it to represent an exploratory fleet joining up with the spess Spartans.Gutsm3k (talk) 18:20, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Vulkan[edit]

Regarding vulkan ability to half the strength of some weapon types, what half of strength D?Gutsm3k (talk) 23:55, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Doesn't matter right now. All the SD weapons I can think of aren't one of the types Vulkan halves damage against, since they're either laser-based or cannons of some type. --Boss Ballkrusha (talk) 18:30, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Although the chances of playing against someone who has the time to make one is very rare the emperor titan has a strength D plasma weapon Gutsm3k (talk) 23:54, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

The plasma annihilator is only S10, as you can see on the Plasma page. Both of its other big guns are laser weapons.--Boss Ballkrusha (talk) 00:32, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Huh, so it is. I remember looking at a pdf of the emperor titan rules that had a strength D plasma weapon but it must have been outdated Gutsm3k (talk) 22:23, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

I believe that this may be it, but it's a fan-made variant of the rules, fun as it would be to field.--Boss Ballkrusha (talk) 22:36, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Nope, that wasn't it. I believe it used to be linked from the titan page on this site but the link seems broken Gutsm3k (talk) 20:11, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Ahh I've worked it out. None of the links to games workshop work since they get the new siteGutsm3k (talk) 00:44, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Nvm, found the datasheet. It seems I was confused between the plasma annihilator and the vengeance cannon.

Lorgar New Rulebook Psychic Powers[edit]

The new rulebook has changed not only how Psychic Powers are cast, but they've also changed pretty much all of the psychic powers available, as such I'm going to update the Psychic Powers section on his entry, does anybody want the previous Psychic Powers archived anywhere? I'll be keeping a copy of the page on my computer for a while just in case (because fuck 7th edition).Triacom

On second thought, the Psychic Powers should probably be moved to Lorgar's specific page, I'm just going to update the section right now, but does anybody object to moving the Psychic powers (and the discussion of them) to his page?Triacom

Competitiveness Rating?[edit]

I think littering the entire document with one line summaries just interrupts the flow of text far too much. It's also too subjective to generally say "good/bad/maybe" for each unit. Isn't the whole point of these tactics articles to go into a bit more depth than that? and actually draw out the good/bad points of the unit and explain them? Plus, some players out there will probably have different opinions. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 10:49, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

  • I agree, especially when different legions change how effective some units are, Iron Hands and Imperial Fists for example both can get more out of their boarding squads, Death Guard can get a lot more out of their support squads because they can give everyone in the squad shred, if it's really necessary to say how competitive something is or isn't then it should be said in the paragraph itself, rather than in one-line summary. Triacom
  • anyone else think the same? Or shall we just go through the article removing these statements? --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 11:53, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Phosphex Dangerous terrain[edit]

After firing a Phosphex weapon, the blast marker remains on the tabletop for the rest of the game as moving (if within 2" of any model) dangerous terrain. Regarding models with Move through cover, can I move them near the flames and sort of "stick" the flames to the squad to make it hard-to-assault? After all, the template kills as Dangerous terrain (1 Wound AP-), not as the former S5 AP2 poison of the Phosphex. Yes, it's only 2" per turn, but still, is it valid? - Zerghalo2 (talk) 2:22, 8 November 2014

It isn't moving dangerous terrain, you can only move it after the template is placed (as in, when it is fired), as it isn't technically a template when it's dangerous terrain. - Triacom (talk) 1:14 (UTC), 14 December 2015

Yeah, I mean after I kill people with it, could I move my guys near and take it away with them? For example, my Move Through Cover recon squad, which placed the shot using their Nuncio vox - Zerghalo2 (talk) 19:37, 18 March 2015

Lists vs Text balls[edit]

  • How should we shape this article? Because I feel that lists can convey huge amounts of info without looking too tiring to read. Don't like one point? Skip to the next. In a text ball you'd have to read the entire paragraph to find what you're looking for...and it can swell a paragraph the size of a combined imperial guard infantry squad. Also, lists allow you to add numerical data (like S, T, cost and such), while paragraphs are ill suited for that and end with info like "this sucks, don't use it - not gonna give proof on that, though ;)". - Zerghalo2 (talk) 19:40, 18 March 2015
  • Here's how I view it, if somebody is playing the army then they have the book and can see the values for themselves, so telling somebody if something is good or not is what's important (and why). I admit I went overboard previously but not every item needs to have a list, like the Rotor Guns, it also doesn't flow in the same sense as a paragraph. I do like lists when they're giving off an alternate take or way to use a unit/weapon, and I think it's fine to use a list to list the options available to a unit (using the main paragraph to describe the strengths and weaknesses of a unit), just not if every option gets its own listed entry (which I see as unnecessary) if it can be prevented. I'm not too sure what other people think on that last one though. -- Triacom (talk) 04:22, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
  • We may have the books, but it's a pain in the ass to go forth and back between options to make comparisons, specially with digital versions. But the main reason why I try to list every and all options is so that some random reader sees an option listed and expands it in ways one didn't realize at the moment...which is they way wikis are meant to improve. That way, this article can grow beyond the limitations of personal tastes: You say that Rotor guns don't deserve a point, I say they are so bad others need to be warned not to take them as if they were chaos Mutilators. Some says a unit with Grav guns is bad because Heavy & 18" range prevents them from moving - I say they are the best you could deepstrike near an enemy Spartan. Then someone says Volk Culverins are better than Calivers for cost...and I have to look on the stats page, then on the Heavy support entry, then on Troops section. Then I list it, and now everyone can read all that in a paragraph they can ignore when they know they just want plasma to go. That's the point I'm trying to make: Numbers stacked near for the sake of easy comparisons. If we said that Anvillus are good for assault oriented legions, they'll believe us - "Good for you, World Eaters, I'm gonna keep doing my stuff". But if we go a step further and write in bold letters "32-42" melee menace", when they picture how big a 32" circle is, they'll know it is a potentially game-chnger well worth the points. And you erased that :'( -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 17:42, 20 March 2015
  • If you want to compare the weapons why not compare them in the same bullet point? Put Volkite Calivers and Volkite Chargers in the same bullet since they only differ slightly, and put Melta and Plasma on the same spot because you're likely to use the squad the same way in 30K for example (small size, deepstrike it, high points cost, short lifespan, etc. Also there's a big difference between strategy and summary, strategy is saying that grav-guns are good to deepstrike next to tough tanks like Spartans thanks to Haywire, summary is listing the entire weapons profile who it can be put on, and who gets it, which doesn't help anyone as they have access to that information without looking at this wiki. I'll admit I've also been a little negligent on saying why something is better, but I can definitely say why Culverins are better than Calivers without listing both profiles and without needing them on two bullet points, which makes the weapons look like they're unrelated. I'll admit I made a mistake in removing the threat bubble point (I've now added that back in), but I don't think you can defend the massive summaries when you could just list the important points. Incidentally you don't seem to be using the easy way of signing posts (I didn't know about it for a while either), just hit the tilde key four times and the wiki puts in your full signature for you in place of the four tilde's. -- Triacom (talk) 03:54, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Thanks xD! I really don't like to deepstrike plasma teams in the same way as suicide meltas, but I think I get the point now: Thess weapons are good for anti-infantry, these ones for AV and so on. Consolidate bulletpoints indeed. Let's aim them into talking about how different wargear adresses some situations, instead of the wargear itself, then. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 05:41, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
  • You won't be suicide striking them the exact same way as melta's, instead of putting them next to several tanks you'll be going next to terminators, and no matter who the opponent is the second they see five plasma guns in the same squad appear next to their expensive 2+ armour they're going to do everything they can to remove them (try it next to Tyrants if you play against Iron Warriors to really piss people off). If you don't deepstrike them then they tend to get shot from across the map too much before they can be of use. I can agree for the changes though. -- Triacom (talk) 06:56, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
  • I've now changed the Support Squad so that it now addresses different situations the unit can handle and the equipment they should use for said situation, I think we can both be happy about this (I've made sure to bold the weapons so that it's easy to find them in the bullet) because it addresses all their optional equipment and reads more like it's suggesting tactics rather than giving pros and cons on specific weaponry. -- Triacom (talk) 03:45, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Legion Combos[edit]

  • Should we erase ALL legion combos spread throughout the page and repeat them in their sections, relocate them in the Army Tactics section or leave them like they are so that you can compare a unit among several legions at once? For example, mention Dreadnoughts are good with certain legions on their entry so you can take that into account when making your army list or to say that on each legion section (so players from other legions need to check every legion section to know what they can be against)...or in the very neglected Army Tactics section? - Zerghalo2 (talk) 20:00, 18 March 2015
  • I say we should relocate them, people using 30K armies have already decided on their specific Legions so they are looking to see what could make their own Legions better, if we just have them throughout the main article they'll have to comb over the tactica to see what's better for them but if we list it in the Legion specific areas they'll just head right there and anybody who doesn't play that Legion won't need to skip past it. Additionally if we wanted to list ALL the legion combos then the article itself would drastically increase in size as you listed all of the Iron Hands benefits for infantry, bikes, transports tanks in all of their respective sections, then list all of the benefits they can get from the armoury, etc. Players already have to look at the Legion section to know what they're up against like Legion specific units and Rites of War, combos in both places don't make sense, especially when one "combo" says to check out the Imperial Fists section. Also why would we list the bonuses in the Legion section but not what unit they work with? Finally it offers no benefit except to the people playing those armies or against those armies and so gets in the way, if I'm playing Iron Hands what good does it do for me to read that Imperial Fists can get Tank Hunters on Bolters and Alpha Legion can have everyone with Tank Hunters if I'm playing against Death Guard? -- Triacom (talk) 04:16, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Seems that it all boils down to the unaligned's call for "Who can field the best Dreadnoughts ever" vs the aligned's "How good are the Dreadnoughts I can field, never mind the others". But maybe it does get in the way, in which case don't just erase the thing, but relocate it in its correct place. For example, infiltrating infantry with the Ravens is cool, and while it'd be redundant to say that the Seekers can be infiltrated too, it's good to mention them because of their rules instead of just saying "all infantry can be infiltrated" -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 21:45, 20 March 2015
    • What about the Praevian's automatas, though? I don't know if all Legiones astartes rules get applied in full to them or just partially. I don't have that book. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 05:47, 21 March 2015 (UTC)
  • The Praevians aren't in a book (or I've missed them), they're in the rules for Narik Dreygur, the Automatas gain the same Legiones Astartes rule the Praevian has and it's applied to them fully, but they can choose to swap it for another rule. -- Triacom (talk) 06:52, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Legion rules and ---entries[edit]

  • I propose we bold out the Legion rules. After all, wargear and characters are boldened already, why not rules - the most defining aspects of the Legions. I propose to change the "-" near entries to ": " to avoid scenarios like "Chainglaive - +1S" that read "Chainglaive, minus plus one..." Zerghalo2 (talk) 07:13, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Aren't the rules already bolded? If you mean bolding them when they've already been given bullet points then I'm against it. The point of bolding is to highlight something amidst a lot of other text, not necessarily to show how important something is, if you bold everything then it no longer looks important and it doesn't really do any more to stand out since the bullet points already do that. As for changing the "-" entries, I couldn't agree more. -- Triacom (talk) 09:10, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
  • No, what I mean is this: It is bolded that you can take a Power Scythe, but not that you're Intractable, Remorseless and Barbarus born - factors that affect how you play WAY more significantly. They're Bolded in the book. Also, some bulletpoints in the RoW in the book are even named and bolded themselves, like "Dark Arsenal", but not here...so I shall go do that. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 16:09, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Power Daggers[edit]

  • That dude meant Power daggers vs Power armoured dudes, the Headhunter squad being armed with that by default and all that. Of course, against characters, daggers are nothing more than +1 Specialist wep attack. So I moved it to the Headhunter section. Now...how the hell are Headhunters supposed to be used? I don't want to risk Seeker equivalents in melee. It's like their main boon are Dreadclaws and Infiltration, but when footslogging (infiltrators can suck on my Augury scanners), Seeker's Scorpius beat them both in lethality, versatility and cost, not to mention the huge range advantage from Kraken. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 11:16, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
    • But Praetors can use them too, and can do so quite effectively at that matter. Why move it to a section that suggests only one unit can take them?--Newerfag (talk) 21:13, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
    • They aren't written in a way that suggests only one unit can use them, that's why it says "Characters". The way it was written previously made it look like everyone could buy them as it was talking about an entire squad with the daggers. That's why I had a problem with it because in reality only one squad has it so that all members get the daggers, and any infantry character will almost always be up against 2+ armour in close combat where you want something like an axe (I said power weapon when I changed that, not power sword) or a fist to deal with the other guy and using a dagger there will get you killed far more than it will help you win. -- Triacom (talk) 04:16, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
    • The only redeeming quality about standalone Daggers that I can see is Cheap Rending at Initiative, so I'm adding that. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 10:36, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
    • That's still going to get you (as in some unit champion) killed more often than an axe though, you've got two attacks vs three (because the axe doesn't have specialist weapon), you miss with one of those and need 6's to go through the armour (0.16 chance of killing the other character), the other guy misses with 1.5, then needs a three to wound (meaning 1 wound goes through) meaning mathematically he WILL kill your one wound character. -- Triacom (talk) 23:20, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
    • Yes, if he has any sort of AP2 your sgt is doomed. Daggers are trash, no doubt. They are for the case where you can take either power weapon or artificer, but not both, because piss poor. Dunno, I feel sad that they're no more than +1 Special attack, I like Alphas :( -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 00:47, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Allies part 2[edit]

The Word Bearers section says they can take an allied detachment of Daemons. Think we should add a section about that or no? To my understanding, they are the only 'proper' 40k army that can see use in a 30k list. Something like 'a Tzeenition herald for divination' or 'a GUO to catch bullets' or whatever. Thoughts? - Hapless anon.

  • Not a propper section - they have a tactics page for that. However, feel free to add SOME daemonic shenanigans, in the same way other legions benefit from allied AdMech: list some synergies, but for full info, redirect them to their propper tactics page. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 05:10, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Okay then. I was going to add a bit, but figured I'd be polite and ask here first. Well, I suppose I'll go add a section on the Daemons tactics page.

Collapsible sections on the various Legions[edit]

So I've been wondering for a while now if we could or should make the various Legions collapsible, especially since they're supposed to change as time goes on and new books are released for them, it would also allow people to go nuts in their section emphasizing different synergies in the units without bloating the regular page (which is definitely going to be bloated once the rest of the Legions get rules), and for this I'm going to give an example: I play Death Guard against Iron Hands (and vice-versa depending one who I'm playing against is interested in playing as), I don't play against Night Lords, I doubt I will ever play against Night Lords, and I'm sure there are Night Lords players who'll never play against Death Guard or Iron Hands, would it be so bad to collapse these sections and just have the reader click the "expand" button if they want to know more? -- Triacom (talk) 06:01, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

That's a good idea, worth giving a shot to see how it looks. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 06:18, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
  • So I've now added a collapsible section to the Emperor's Children and the Death Guard with a short blurb trying to sum them up, I don't intend for the blurb to stay that way (anyone who wants to expand on it certainly can) and now I'm just looking for feedback, yes or no on it. -- Triacom (talk) 14:53, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
  • For long I've wanted to add a Legion-description section, but I was aware that'd bloat the article to no end. This idea you had is great - If you're looking for a Yes, here, you can have mine xD. OMG LEAVE SOME FOR ME -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 04:53, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
  • So another question I've got now is if we should put Primarch's into their respective legions rather than leaving them down at the bottom. For the record I don't get why they're at the bottom rather than in their respective Legions in the first place either, is there some sort of reason that I'm not aware of for doing that? -- Triacom (talk) 05:27, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
    • I'm with you, it would make sense to put them in at the end of their legion sections, so people can better see how they influence their forces, without having to flit up and down the page.--Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 18:11, 8 May 2015 (UTC)
  • That'd be very good, since currently we need to skip over to the Primarch section to see the legion combos. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 18:12, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Deredeo Dreadnought Atomantic Pavaise rules?[edit]

I've been thinking about getting a Deredeo Dreadnought, mainly for the Atomantic Pavaise, but I cannot find it in the current rules or previous rules (via web archive). When did it appear, does anyone still have a copy of the pdf and if it's removed from the current rules it should also be removed from the tactica. -- Triacom (talk) 15:02, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

    • It hasn't been added yet, but was revealed at a FW open day and will probably end up in the next HH book. I do have a picture of it though, give me a little while and I'll get it here--Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 18:21, 15 May 2015 (UTC)/
      IMG 20150216 085809.JPG
  • Seeing as there is currently a bit of an edit war going on about whether the Atomantic Pavaise has a cap. I cannot attest to digital editions, but the rules haven't changed in print since the experimental rules presented in the photo. It's the same on page 79 of the Astartes Army list (the red one) and is the same in Tempest. Quote: the Pavaise "boosts an invulnerable save they already possess by +1 (5+ becoming 4+ etc) to a maximum of 3+" --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 08:07, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Additional tag containing competitiveness missing[edit]

At some point or another, there was a small label on each unit detailing its competitiveness that varied from fun, to semi-competitiveness, to competitive. Seeing as it has been removed, is there a way to get that labeling back?

Really helped out a lot, --98.196.23.15 23:22, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

  • Well, it was removed on the grounds that it bloated the entries. After all, something semi-competitive can be made good when complemented by a specific Legion, but be utter crap for another (e.g. CCW marines when used by Salamanders vs the ones owned by World Eaters - fun for one/semicompetitive for the other one). And when stuff is OP then it's pretty much noticeable. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 00:39, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
    • If you look back up this page you'll see that we went over this last August; simple one liners or star ratings aren't that useful at all unless your goal is to create an army out of only "competitive" (eg 4-5 star) units and excluding "not competitive" (eg 1-2 star) ones. But something like that is entirely subjective since there are so many ways of looking at a thing, even a lasgun has its place so labeling it "uncompetitive" would be wrong. If a unit/item is a must-take then the community will make that clear, similarly even a crappy unit will have proponents giving "alternate opinions" and ways of making them good. So any statement of competitiveness is unquantifiable. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 07:39, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Toughness Zero list.[edit]

My mate took this to a tourney, basically you combine the Death Guard relic with multiple charges with rad grenades. The results stack (rad grenades within a unit do not, however multiple units do), and you can swiftly reduce whole units to toughness zero. The kicker? A unit with a toughness stat of zero is considered killed and removed from play. Bye bye everything that's Toughness 4.

  • So, 1 Barbarus pole + 3 rad units charging the same enemy becomes -4T and it is tournament-legal? If you had proof, that'd be amazing. BTW, did your mate win? Because having ~3 units to focus on just one looks inneffective, unless it's against a full terminator deathstar or the like Zerghalo2 (talk) 01:03, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
I emailed Forge World about this a while ago, while it's written so it looks like Rad Grenades stack they actually don't. If you ally in Mechanicus you can get a -3 to Toughness Maximum (still enough to instantly kill guard and tyranid blobs). -- Triacom (talk) 15:45, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
Say, could you show us that e-mail, Triacom? -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 02:38, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
Sure can: http://imgur.com/a/Tp5La. As I said, I checked in with them a while ago, as shown by the date. I also quickly scribbled out my real name, and as for the poor spelling of whoever replied to me, now that one I can't fully explain away, maybe they had an off day? -- Triacom (talk) 03:28, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
Incidentally, I'd like to point out that it is possible to get -4T (unlike what I thought years ago), all you need to do is get Enfeeble, Rad Grenades, Rad Furnace, and the Thurible. -- Triacom (talk) 03:30, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

All it takes to pull it off are 2 characters and one unit, one character needs the relic, and all three need rad grenades and to charge simultaneously. Rad grenades don't stack, but raw rad grenades from separate units charging individually do. The typical approach was to run a unit of Grave Wardens, a character with the relic, Mortarion in a spartan. Drive up, jump out, split the unit up, and then charge as 3 units instead of a single Death Star.

  • I understand Rad grenades not stacking as "not stacking in any way (with themselves), either with multiple grenades within a single unit or several amongst several units". Thus, having them in multiple units wont matter at all, unless you have a Forgeworld mail that says so. And about your strategy, Mortarion can't have Rad because he's not a character (but Calas is). Furthermore, Deathshroud are a unit made entirely of Characters - you could have the 10 men using 10 rad grenades within a single unit, but that doesn't mean they can kill Daemon Princes with a mean look, does it? Zerghalo2 (talk) 03:34, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
  • It's not about how many guys in the unit have the grenades, it's about how many individual separate units charge at once. The big trick is to use Typon, or a Librarian, and try and roll up the Biomancy power for -1 toughness, which will also aid in this technique. RAW Rad grenades: "During a turn in which a unit equipped with Rad grenades assaults or is assaulted, the enemy unit(s) suffer a -1 penalty to their toughness until the end of the assault phase (this does not effect the instant death threshold)". So, each INDIVIDUAL unit charging, adds a -1 modifier, RAW. Creative interpretation? Sure, but it's as written, -1T per UNIT.

Imperial fist - Disciplined Fire question[edit]

From the imp fist Legion Special Rules.

"Disciplined Fire: Add +1 BS when firing Boltguns (including the bolt part of Combi-weapons and Combi-Bolters as well), Bolt Pistols, Heavy Bolters and Quad-Boltguns. Heavy Support Squads with this rule gain Tank Hunters, so nice for Rhino hunting, if anything."

This seems to imply that Heavy Support Squads with this rule gain Tank Hunters only if they are using heavy bolters. Is this correct? From the rules I thought they just gain tank hunters. I could however be horribly wrong. -- SpikeySam (talk) 14:08, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

  • Yup, no Tank Hunters with Lascannons, only when using Heavy Bolters. BTW put four "~" at the end of your posts in the Talk pages in order to better follow who said what and when. It will autowrite this: -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 20:44, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Am I reading it wrong then? As far as I can see Legiones Astartes (Imperial Fists) states "All models and units with this special rule are subject to the following provisions:"

Disciplined Fire: Units with this special rule (Refering to Disciplined Fire) may add +1 to their BS when using boltguns, bolt pistols, heavy bolters and quad heavy bolters, and when firing the bolter component of a combi-weapon. Heavy Support squads with this rule (Disciplined Fire) also gain the Tank Hunters special rule.

It's the Full stop after "and when firing the bolter component of a combi-weapon." that confuses me. Surely a marine with the Legiones Astartes (Imperial Fists) rule has the Disciplined Fire rule even when using a non-boltgun (eg plaz) he just gains no BS bonus as he is not using a boltgun.

After the full stop "Heavy Support squads with this rule (Disciplined Fire) also gain the Tank Hunters special rule." As far as I can see all Legiones Astartes (Imperial Fists) have the Disciplined Fire rule reguardless of what weapon they use they just don't get the +1 BS? -- SpikeySam (talk) 14:51, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

  • Ohh, it is confusing. It'd be also completely unfair, given they specialize on defensive sieges more than offensive ones, and they do bolter drills instead of lascannon drill - wouldn't be surprising, tho, given FW's favoritism to certain legions. I'll just ask them -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 20:19, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
  • I'm kinda with Spikey Sam on this one, the reasoning is sound and that's how I always thought the rule read. No one in my group plays Fists so it never came up. But if you ask FW I'd be really interested to know what you get back.--Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 20:23, 9 November 2015 (UTC)
  • Turns out yeah, they do have Tank Hunters, and they also gain BS5 when using HBs - Zerghalo2 (talk) 13:39, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Clarification on "Rites of War" with regards to Legion Praetors[edit]

Noob moment here, as I just got my hands on the Betrayal at Calth box for cheap on E-Bay, and looking at getting my hands on the Forge World books at a later date when finances allow. I was reading a section on the page explaining how Book 4 apparently elaborates on how a Crusade army list is meant to be set up, and that Rites of War were only allowed to be taken if the mission (or your opponent) allowed it, and/or your Crusade list is following the vanilla "Age of Darkness" Force Org Chart when playing games of 30k. It was made pretty clear that doesn't apply to games of 40k, but I was curious as to how this relates to a later entry on the page concerning the Legion Praetor. Apparently the Praetor allows for the use of Rites of War, regardless of your chosen Force Organization; am I interpreting this correctly? If so, would that mean a Night Lords player running a Praetor HQ/Warlord choice could field the Onslaught FOC, and thereby require one less Terror Squad when using the Terror Assault RoW? --70.190.166.102 09:19, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

I see where you're going with this, because some FOCs would easily circumvent certain compulsory requirements and make them easier to fulfil for some Rites. Firstly, you need a "Master of the Legion" to use a Rite of War, which is either going to be a Praetor, Delegatus HQ or a Primarch. Without them you simply don't have the option of using a Rite. Beyond this, the rules in the big books and the "Crusade Legion Army List" get kind of wishy washy with designer notes; the additional/"extra" Force Org Charts are not intended for use with Rites of War, so strictly speaking you shouldn't be allowed to use a Rite of War with the Onslaught FOC without your opponents permission.
To quote the rules directly: "The use of these alternative Force Organisation charts is strictly optional when not included as part of a particular mission and should always be agreed upon by both sides before their use. When playing Horus Heresy games using these alternative charts, the Rites of War rules for the Space Marine Legions may not be used in conjunction with them unless specifically mentioned in a particular mission"
There are also extra FOCs for certain missions like "Cityfight" or "Blood in the Void" but those FOCs are specifically for those mission types and have their own restrictions, so things like the Incursion Force FOC (not listed on the tactics page) specifically tells you you're not allowed a Rite of War. But the Entrenched Force does not have the same restriction. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 10:25, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
Just further to the question asked, I can see the misunderstanding. Rites of War can be used, regardless of your opponent's permission as long as it's with the vanilla FOC and as long as you have a Master of the Legion somewhere in your force. To use the other FOCs you'd need to have your opponent's permission or the mission allowed it, but you can't/shouldn't then also take a Rite of War unless the mission also allows it. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 11:02, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarification, Dark. You've been repeatedly helpful in educating me on the hobby. Also, still looking for the source of that quote you left on the Night Lords page. --70.190.166.102 01:37, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Legion Seeker Squad - Legion Strike Leader[edit]

Just noticed that it seems that Legion Strike Leaders are unable to take a combi-weapon. This would mean that the point below the unit entry talking about 20 plazma shots is incorrect? BattleScribe put me onto this and after checking I can't seem to find any option for him that allows a combi-weapon. Apologies if I am mistaken. -- SpikeySam (talk) 16:05, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

The champion of a unit is still considered part of the unit for all purposes, for example when it says "any Seeker Space Marine" it should still include the Strike Leader (unless I've missed a FAQ somewhere). If you're up against a rules lawyer who's saying that it doesn't say "any Seeker Space Marines and the Strike Leader" or one who tries to claim the Strike Leader isn't a Seeker Space Marine, then just point out that nobody in the unit is a Seeker Space Marine according to the characteristics, they're LEGION Seeker Space Marines, so either none of the options apply, or we don't know what characteristics the regular Seeker Space Marines have. -- Triacom (talk) 18:42, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

New FAQ January 2016[edit]

Legion Mortis Dreadnaught Talons: The new FAQ adds the word "Talon" into the title: does this give us the ability to now take legion mortis dreads in talons?

No, that's just Forgeworld's "excellent" editors at work. It's not uncommon for Forge World to give rules that affect things the model doesn't (or can't) have, or to give them completely wrong rules/options, like giving a unit of Jump Infantry the option of buying Jump Packs, (and in case you're wondering, they were standard packs) or to just completely forget to include the definitions for certain rules. Their standards of quality are really low. -- Triacom (talk) 09:04, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Breaking down the Shattered Legion rules.[edit]

Just trying to work through the wording of the rule logically to figure out what the RAW actually is, this might seem clear to some other people, but since I've mostly been working on it myself so far I'm going to take the time to go through it line by line to show my working.

  • Line 1: "A primary detachment in a Shattered Legion army may (and in fact must) include units with different versions of the Legiones Astartes special rules."
  • Line 2: "The Primary detachment must include elements of least two different Legions (ie units with different versions of the Legiones Astartes special rule). In order to take choices from a specific Legion, the Force must contain a Praetor or Centurion or a suitable HQ special character from the same Legion."

It really boils down to what FW meant by "choice". As many people are suggesting this means "Legion-Specific" choices, which could allow them to take a Shattered Legion consisting of a mix of all 18 legions using generic crusade list units with different Legiones Astartes rules, which seems to be implied by Line 1, which simply states that a Force is allowed to take a mix, and taken on its own is quite simple.

However, Line 2 practically restates the first clause and goes on to define what they mean when they say what coming from a "Legion" means, then adds the condition that an appropriate HQ be taken to take "choices" from a specific legion. Therefore, you'd need an Night Lord HQ to include any choice from the Night Lord Legion, defined as units with the Legiones Astartes special rule, which is how I would have viewed it and how I might have assumed what the line meant to intend.--Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 10:27, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

I don't see the problem to be honest, if I want to take a main detachment of Death Guard with a Death Guard Praetor and then some tactical squads of Iron Hands, what's stopping me? Tactical squads are not a choice from a specific legion, neither is anything in the Crusade book. If you want to argue that they're all unique simply because they're a different Legion, then you could make this same argument about the Alpha Legion, their rules let them take a non-unique unit from another Legion, however all of those units are unique to their Legion, so the rule has no effect. To settle it talk it over with who you're playing with and ask FW about it in an email. There's not really anything else you can do since the proofreading in nearly all Forgeworld books is beyond terrible. -- Triacom (talk) 11:38, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
It's the proviso in the second line that stops you. Its true that Tactical squads are not a specific Legion choice, but the bit I find difficulty reconciling is that they explicitly defined that a unit "from a Legion" is one that has a particular version of the Legiones Astartes rule. So a unit "with the Iron Hands Legiones Astartes rule" is what you get when you take that Iron Hands Tactical Squad, therefore you'd need an Iron Hands HQ to take them alongside your Death Guard Praetor. I may be wrong, but I'll ask Forgeworld when I digest everything else and see if there are other questions, but I just wanted to open discussion.--Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 11:56, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
Sorry but I'm just not seeing it. Where did they say that a unit from a specific legion is one that has a specific LA rule? Line 1 says they need to have units with different versions of the rule. Line 2 says the army must be composed of different units from those legions. The second sentence in Line 2 defines that you can't take legion specific units without a HQ unit from that Legion. Where's the issue? Even in your reasoning you say it needs to be specifically from that legion, and have their version of the LA rule, when Tac Squads aren't from any legion. -- Triacom (talk) 20:36, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
Doesn't this mean you could take a Blood Angels, Iron Warriors and Emperor's Children tactical squads, but if you want to bring Grave Wardens you must bring a Death Guard HQ/Character? -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 20:44, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
That's how I'm reading it. I guess we could just find out in an email to Forgeworld. -- Triacom (talk) 21:13, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
I guess its just me then. It was good to get several opinions. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 22:40, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

The Effectiveness of Ravenwing Protocol[edit]

What it says on the tin. Albeit it starts as "don't let me catch you badmouthing me Death Guard" and some Acid Heavy Bolter maths, then leans towards the questioning of the viability of an all fast-attack army against a mechanized list, especially against Deredeos, then turning into where to add Shattered Legions' content, with the example of Morturg's WT and DG's RoW and chem flamers with them and then turning into a review of the SoHs' rules and the value of having actual friends Sworn Brothers, as well as the competitivity of Justaerin with their updated ICL2 stats (2W, 5 men, BS5 within 12").

So I'm just making this to avoid an edit war, Poisoned Heavy Bolters are better than Chem Flamers when comparing Death Guard and Dark Angels? Let's assume the flamer hits three models, I've found that they usually hit more but for arguments sake let's just give it the same amount of shots as the heavy bolter. The Heavy Bolter on average causes 0.740 Wounds per shooting phase, whereas the Chem Flamer on average causes 0.750 Wounds per shooting phase, so no, a Poisoned Heavy Bolter is not better for killing a Death Guard than a Death Guard's chem flamer is at killing Dark Angels. -- Triacom (talk) 07:13, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Two points here: First, nobody is using a poisoned heavy bolter to attack a Death Guard astartes, say the target is a random marine. Second, it's Poison 2+ and S5, which makes it good against stuff a chem flamer wouldn't be adequate, like Rhinos or MCs. But also, it has more range. But also, it doesn't gets hot. But also, it has 50% chance of ignoring marine armour. That way, assuming we shoot and land 2 shots as usual, and factoring in the 50% chance of ignoring MEQ saves, we get the next formula:
2*(5/6)*(1/3)*.5+2*(5/6)*.5
which equals to 1.11 wounds at longer range than a chem flamer, useful against Rhinos and Battle Automata, without the chance of killing the gunner or damaging the Dreadnought, capable of being snapfired and absolutely nasty on Rapiers, which just now came to me. Thoughts? -- 08:53, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
It would not work on Rapiers, because they have no heavy bolters. The way worning of the rule works it would not apply to quad HBs Mezmerro (talk) 09:10, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
Hmm true. Can Outriders swap their TL Plasma guns for Plasma repeaters, tho? -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 09:13, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

That being said, why can't I get into a dick-swinging rad fight with them? Not poison, but rad, which was what started this in the first place. DA bike TL plasma repeater rad-affected overwatch(it does work like that, right?) is outright mean. Also, a DA biker is prone to be more heavily armed (lots of sword choices), deadlier (hits on 3+, rerolls on T5) and more prone to sweep advance things than his DG equivalent (-1 sweep penalty vs rerollable sweep and Stubborn), while possibly being cheaper by 5pts. And bikers aren't really afraid of chem flamers, much less jetbikes with their 2+ save and huge bases. On a side note, Poison HBolters are better than the regular HBolters even against the DG, causing .11 more wounds on average due to AP D6. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 09:39, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Nobody was talking about using it on the Death Guard? I was talking about using that on the Death Guard, I figured so long as you're saying that they can do the Death Guard strategy better than the Death Guard I might as well point out that's not a good idea. Yes the weapons are meant for different targets, you get a lot of chem-flamers against Guard or Solar Auxilia and you'll wipe out entire units. You use Heavy Bolters on them and it won't have the same effect (usually they're just grouped up more making it easier for the flamers to get them, not to mention they ignore cover). I also compared the two because you said that Heavy Bolters were better than chem-flamers, you never specified about which targets they were better at, so I pitted them MEQ vs MEQ because I thought that was the most fair comparison (and the flamers turned out to be only marginally better). The reason it's not a good idea to get into a dick-swinging rad contest with them is because they can get not only Rad Grenades, but the Thurible. You wound on 3's? They wound on 2's (as you're now Toughness 2). The Thurible even works outside of the assault phase, so their chem flamers are wounding on 3's on average, re-rolling failed to wound rolls (and heavy flamers wound on 2's, making for ridiculous overwatch). Either that or they can perform Fury of the Legion Wounding on 3's. You also say that you'll be overwatching on the Death Guard (as far as I can tell you can use them with overwatch), but in my experience I usually don't charge with DG unless I'm abusing the Jetbike base with the Power Scythes (and with the new rules they've actually become worth taking on all my units). If you get close I can just knock your Toughness down with the Thurible, then use chem-flamers of some variety. Hell, with at least two Heavy Support squads as troops, I can't imagine why I wouldn't have enough krak missiles to handle the outriders I can't screen with other units (like the Grave Wardens or Deathshrouds) and the Jetbikes can be handled by other things (like a Medusa, it's not like it's hard to hit them, or maybe just my own Jetbikes with a character with them). By the way I realized my mistake that the Poisoned Bolters are still better and have already corrected that. -- Triacom (talk) 10:00, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
The Thurible is now mostly a campaign thing, otherwise most DG lists would be Scyllax + Enfeeble Librarian with the Thurible using The Reaping, killing with but a mean look, and that's limited by the chance of rolling Enfeeble and the relic's extremely small radius coupled with their movement restrictions, further highlighting the fact that it can't be everywhere at once. I wanted to denote the DA's ease of bringing Old Night wargear into assault more than claiming their superiority over the DG, but they were the only comparison for wide-access marine rad I got. DG were supposed to be more resistant to overall injury, but that title is now held by Iron Hands and World Eaters, so their title became "lots of alchem weapons", but now DA and their Old Night stuff match rad with their own, chem weapons with acid bolts and poison explosives with stasis ones. The DG still keeps their title through several means tho, but the DA's ease of taking rad to the enemy's face on turn 2 through enviable mobility coupled with their notable melee prowess, that's what I want to highlight (but I need something to compare it to). Not to mention the DG has less jetbikes and the usual rad vs rad scenario would actually be bikers against heavy weapon infantry. Krak missiles? Break LOS, jink, deepstrike jetbikes at their side, the battle tends to go towards the one who choses when and how to engage, so it won't be the end of the world. Fury of the Legion wounding on 3's assumes a)I'm not a bike, b) somehow I ended within 6" of your tac squad even though you didn't move it, c)I'm not assaulting said tac squad. Only Chem heavy flamers are scary, albeit a little less than plasma repeaters, even with rad on overwatch. And yes, the thurible would behave like the best keep-away charm ever, but they can also be taken care of by other stuff, like any flyer, which will be uncontested in the sky and threatened by quickly diminishing ground based AA. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 14:58, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
That's why I said if you're allowing relics they can drop your toughness ridiculously low. Even if they don't have the Thurible, if you want to use those Rad Grenades on them, you need to get very close, guess where their chem-flamers want you? You're literally putting yourself in a position for them to wreck your troops if you don't roll really well, and sometimes even if you do roll really well depending on how many chem-flamers they have (remember, their Rad Grenades also work with overwatch) and this is especially true if they've brought along any Grave Wardens that they're using to screen their units (where you can kiss those charging bonuses goodbye). I do agree that the Iron Hands and now the new World Eaters (by that I mean with their new rite) are more durable in general, though at least for the Death Guard I have ways around that (I'd much rather have preferred increased durability, though maybe we'll get that yet), get Mortarion and now my troops outright ignore their Inviolate Armour (troops being Heavy Support Squads with missile launchers). Considering too that every DG character can also buy Rad Grenades, I don't see how it's all that easier for DA to get into assault and use them than it is the DG. If you're going to point out mobility as a factor, I'll point out that DG don't have a problem getting at least three units into combat on turn 2 so long as you use Morturg as your Warlord, and then you can usually stay in combat longer because he always gets Endurance. What do the DA get? You want to take Rad to the enemy, all right, so you'll have to load it up on Bikers, Jetbikers, Troops in Heavy Transports, or a Caestus, all of which gets far pricier than three Death Guard squads that just Infiltrate close (yes I know the purpose of the rite is to load up on them, that doesn't mean they aren't expensive). For the record I've found the best use for Rad Grenades is using them defensively, you can get into a good position where you can use chem-flamers, and the enemy doesn't want to charge, because on top of those flamers overwatching better they'll have to deal with reduced effectiveness in melee, having looked at the Dark Angels rules (I haven't yet played a game against them) I'd guess their best use for them would be getting close to use their plasma repeaters, and then the enemy would be too scared to charge because of Instant Death overwatch and being T3 in close combat against an army that already hits them better. Also pretty much every character can be given a chem-flamer, or every unit can be screened by a unit with a chem-flamer. Yes I'll admit that repeaters are better at killing, however you have to agree they're far more limited, mainly by who they can be put onto. If you want something to compare them to DG in general why not say you can be Psuedo-Death Guard? After all, you're getting a poison choice they don't get and since one of the things that the DG are most well known for (game-wise) is taking Rad Grenades you can play the defensive Toughness game too. -- Triacom (talk) 21:12, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
>Assumming I'll charge the one unit with the thurible instead of killing it with flyers. I'd say the +1T from the bikes cancels out the -1T from the rad grenades and that shredding flamers isn't such a big deal against 2+ saves (much less a combi-flamer), especially when it can get hot and not shoot at all, not to mention disordered charges don't prevent HoW hits. Assaulting Grave Wardens, the most difficult thing to assault in the game? No one is that mad. If you're using Morturg as the warlord, aren't you giving up on Rad, tho? Better try landing his WT with a Praetor, or a Delegatus. "I don't see how it's all that easier for DA to get into assault and use them than it is the DG", it's called "Bikes", especially when you can't even flat out. No running would equate to a footslogging Cataphractii trying to catch a jetbike in melee. About what you said about the DA and how they'd use their rad (those rules are still too new), I wanted to also combine their HoW with Rad, and feel like only bikes can truly use plasma repeaters anyway. I also wanted army-wide FnP for the DG instead of not-shrouded in the open, but it can't go bad, I guess. Fret not, I think I've rewritten it in a way it gets the point across without offending anyone. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 22:48, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
You'd use flyers? I don't know about you, but personally I always thought flyers were kind of bad against Legion Armies due to the amount of high Strength Skyfire, and then they became outright terrible when the Deredeo Dreadnought came out (and since I like the Grave Wardens I've never found a reason to not take a Deredeo with an Atomantic Pavaise). Taking Morturg as your Warlord doesn't prevent you from getting a Rite of War for two reasons, firstly because we're now in 7th edition, where your Warlord is whoever you say it is, with the exception of models with a rule that say they must be your Warlord. Just take a model with Master of the Legion that doesn't force you to make them your Warlord. The second reason is even if the model with the highest Leadership needs to be the Warlord (though nothing in the 7th edition book says this), Durak Rask has Master of the Legion, and the same Ld as Morturg, so you can take both to get Master of Ambush and a Rite of War. Yeah a chem-flamer's not so scary when you're one Jetbikes, but I want you to look at the cost of the Jetbikes for a second, then look at how many you get, then think about how many Space Marines they'll be fighting in close combat, combined with their base size. Now I usually play with a lot of buildings, if I'm going to use Jetbikes, I'm going to put a Power Scythe on them and have a character go with them to make sure they can kill shit (and gain a ton of attacks) because I've found you usually can't get everyone into the fight unless your opponent lets themselves get caught in the open. Also how is it easier to use bikes than it is to Infiltrate then charge? I can get into combat on turn 2, and so can the bikes (assuming you're up against the same opponent, for example DG and DA vs a random Legion). So about the Grave Wardens, I think we can both agree then that they're a terrible idea to charge, however you must also agree then that they're excellent screening units. You say that they can't catch the bikes, but I don't need to catch them, all I need is to get you to come to me, then jump on you once you get close enough, either that or just shoot you if you're staying too far away since your plasma repeaters have very short range (and with a 3+ Invuln save I'm not even all that scared of them, especially if I case Endurance on the squad too). So long as I take 2 of them and put the Thurible in one I've got a large are nobody wants to charge (as you say, they're the worst units to charge in the game, since you're disordered, taking D3 toxin attacks per Warden, maybe a heavy chem-flamer, and charging through dangerous terrain no matter what). I can't help but also feel that bikes are really the only ones who can use plasma repeaters to their full effect (and given how they're your only troops with Ravenwing I think that's what you'd be best with), though I'm questioning how effective it really is over the regular plasma guns since you're essentially trading have the range for a 5 point discount, 1 extra shot, -1 Strength and half the range. As soon as you're within shooting shooting range you're in danger of being charged (though as you mentioned, that might be part of the point, though it does prove that Cataphractii can definitely catch the bikes). Getting in that close also allows their flamers the short range they need to flame you, and if you play with buildings (like I do) then it gets really hard for regular bikes to get into combat in the first place (and Jetbikes will usually have one biker vs about 5-10 Marines given how much space they take up). That is a good edit to the main page though. -- Triacom (talk) 09:03, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
I know what Wardens can do, I wrote their section xD. The usual plan was to drop phosphex on them, but that won't work now with their well deserved FnP agaist poison, so I guess I'd target Deredeos and other heavy stuff with chainfist missiles, and use plasma cannons on the jetbikes, which cost the same as plasma guns on other squads. You say "mind your point cost", and it's more or less the same cost: 170pts of jetbikes vs 150pts of HS squad (I lean towards HW spam, but that's just a matter of preference). Of course, with weapons and the like it'd end up or like 190/210pts vs 160/185pts. Against Wardens, 180pts of plasma cannon jetbikes can do well enough against 200pts of Wardens, especially if I manage to bring down the Deredeo with the lightnings (albeit with Endurance, anything becomes a beatstick). Infiltrating and charging someone on foot isn't that hard. Catching a jetbike on foot, that's the hard thing to do, especially when they have HBolters standard. Excellent screening units, of course, but a screen only works from one side (remember the siege mentality?). With such a good screen I'd need to attack other target, but I can, because I have more mobility (that's why I recommended on the DG section to abuse grav and phosphex). About the plasma repeater, the range is everyone's main concern, S6 not so much, since it still wounds on 2+ and IDs GEQs. For killing MCs I's stick to acid bolters from range now, as the AdMech is noted for their ~24" mean range and high cost. If you play with lots of buildings, then playing Ravenwing gets a lot harder, Death Guard or not, and should indeed be edited in. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 14:16, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Fair enough on the wardens then, though I'd figure Phosphex wouldn't help you all that much, given how they already had a meager resistance to it before and the Reaping lets them ignore the dangerous terrain they're now sitting in (not to mention they have to get kind of close, and if you roll badly that can end badly). Given their range I'd put more money on taking them out via plasma, and speaking of plasma, taking out jetbikes with a plasma cannon seems like a really bad idea to me. Sure you're probably going to hit at least one, but given their base sizes you're not going to hit any more than two, and since they can now take poisoned heavy bolters they can easily make their points back by wrecking a HS squad that is carrying plasma cannons. I'd say you're much better off with a deredeo armed with a plasma cannonade (maybe now I have an excuse to get one with that weapon), they have the same reach as the heavy bolters, cost less than a HS squad with plasma cannons, have a higher BS, and with an Atomantic Pavaise it'll buff your own units as well (and/or you can its missile launcher to snipe enemy squads, rhinos or flyers). So long as I infiltrate a deredeo dreadnought (because why not, I can technically infiltrate three Leviathans) I don't really need to catch the jetbikes, just gun them down while he buffs the Grave Wardens I've also infiltrated (if I choose to do that). Honestly I think Morturg is REALLY OVERPOWERED. Especially in Zone Mortalis, and he's almost always an auto-include because regardless of what list I'm making, getting to Infiltrate three squads, whether they be Heavy Support squads that appear at the tops of buildings, dreadnoughts that hide behind lamp posts (and since I just got a Leviathan I can see myself having a lot of fun with this one) Tactical Squads that spawn on top of objectives, or Support Squads that use chem-flamers on the enemy turn 1, I haven't really come across a strategy he can't help make better. I can see Forgeworld changing his rules sometime in the future because he's extremely good, imagine if the Dark Angels could Infiltrate support squads with plasma repeaters into range turn 1 (I guess they could if your opponent lets you use the Shattered Legion rules) or putting a heavy support squad with acid rounds on the highest building before the game has started. Hell, if I'm going to be really nasty, I can infiltrate Myrmidon Secutors with grav weapons to wreck the shit out of enemy transports and tanks (or get Castellax right up in their face, before using Endurance to make sure they don't die), all without giving up a Rite of War. -- Triacom (talk) 22:37, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

I didn't quite understand who you mean by "they have to get close" on the first point, and I meant "use plasma cannons on the jetbikes" as using the ones mounted on jetbikes - on retrospective I should have written "equip jetbikes with plasma cannons". Wrecking a HW power armoured squad with poison bolters, that's the 210pts estimate (although against such dakka I'd feel compelled to tie them up after killing a few (and then sweep advance them with muh rerolls & fightan magic)). About the Carronade Deredeo vs 4 PlasmaC Jetbikes, it's a 10pts difference on units meant to fulfill different roles, and DA kinda have to bring flyers anyway because of the "flyers only" vehicle restriction impedes them taking Mortis dreads. Infiltrating dreads? I don't think so, man. Master of Ambush grants the Infiltrate rule to 3 non-vehicle units - you can infiltrate a leviathan because it's transporting infiltrators, but a Deredeo transports no one. Also, you can't hide behind a lamp post (unless it's a titan-sized lamp post), you're not Creed, wtf are you doing? You can infiltrate behind stuff that blocks LOS, not stuff that merely offers cover (unless you simply deploy 18" away, aka bike assault range). Actually it's the Deredeo the one wishing the jetbikes don't catch it (but the word "Wardens" comes to mind), much less wants to catch them itself as it has AP- and only one attack, as opposed to the jetbikes' optional meltabombs, unaffected by armoured ceramite. >There's no strategy infiltrate can't make better (true) - RG & AL say hi, Thallax say "01101100 01101111 01101100". He stands out because he's a guaranteed 4-squad infiltration in an otherwise luck-based game, without having to pay for a Delegatus to infiltrate those plasma repeaters. Infiltrating plasma repeaters...hmmmm. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 00:10, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
By "they" I was referring to the Grave Wardens, because experience has taught me you don't want to have your own troops near the enemy when firing blast templates, though now I understand what you mean by that. Yeah I'll admit I fucked up on the Deredeo infiltrate bit (looks like I won't have as much fun with it after all, good thing I never tried it, that game would have gone badly). Somehow I didn't read the "Non-vehicle" bit, however that lamp post bit was a joke at how you can Infiltrate right out in the open, because somehow Morturg is so sneaky he managed to move three Land Raiders into position in the middle of the open without anybody noticing them (Dedicated Transport's, as far as I'm aware you can still Infiltrate those in). I don't think charging a Deredeo Dreadnought with Jetbikes is all that good of an idea for two reasons, firstly because it has some pretty awesome overwatch, and secondly because I've never seen a Deredeo Dreadnought with an Atomantic Pavaise that didn't have troops all around it. Where are you going to put your Jetbikes? This problem only compounds on a board with lots of scenery and terrain (aka a normal 40k/30k board). Something else I'd like to point out is that as far as I'm aware he's the only Astartes that can reliably Infiltrate allies, sure the Raven Guard and Alpha Legion getting Infiltrate for everyone is pretty great, but you have to admit that being able to Infiltrate Mechanicus models is pretty awesome (yes I know that Fulgrim lets you do it too, but he costs way more points, and I know a Lord Marshal can get it too, but he's in a different tactica, and he doesn't get Endurance). In the future I might try Infiltrating Repeaters using him just to see how they work out. -- Triacom (talk) 09:05, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
I'd place the jetbikes wherever they can harass enemies the best or where the enemy line is at the weakest, aka nowhere close to the Deredeo (I hadn't factored their plasma overwatch, luckily it's not twin-linked). Won't deepstrike near it, and you do right in not leaving it alone because losing ~40pts of jetbike in order to kill ~200+pts of dakka dread would be a rather nice investment. And yes, DG are noted for having good multipurpose characters - a praetor/librarian, a MotL/Siege breaker and a Creed/librarian. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 15:19, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
Considering the range on the deredeo, it would be extremely hard not to have them go near a deredeo, (and their plasma is twin-linked). Now I would like to talk about how effective the protocol is in general, because it seems really limited to me. Maybe that was the point, but how exactly are they supposed to deal with an Iron Hands tank squad or maybe dreadnought spam? I would think you'd take allies but they can't, and we've already talked about Deredeos, however what are you going to do when there's two or three of them? Your flyers are kind of screwed (especially if they take Mortis Contemptor Dreadnoughts with assault cannons on top of the Deredeos for Infantry killing) and if you want to rely on infantry then you need to have them start in a transport, that'll likely get shot down the second it arrives. Basically the only thing I can see them being useful in is when you're list-tailoring, thoughts? -- Triacom (talk) 20:14, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
Right, I forgot it's twin linked, albeit I still considered losing one to the overwatch, and the 3 surviving meltabombs represent a healthy 45% of the dread exploding...if it wasn't for their expected escorts. Unless that thing also has Aiolos missiles and chem heavy flamer, then it's not a matter of being DA or not but a matter of how much dakka can you commit to it without having the Deredeo commiting its fire to you. I think a lot of things will struggle against armies like the ones you describe, especially one that depends on flyers to bring anything other than bikes when pitted against a billion AA-capable dreads, especially when they belong to Iron Hands. Fast attack choices are an often unexpected source of AT weapons, if a fragile one (jetbikes with meltabombs, land speeders with grav, etc). Thus, on maps with lots of LOS blockers, the Ravenwing's weakness against infantry becomes their strenght against tanks, focusing on getting meltas(bombs)/grav into range while breaking LOS from high strenght weapons, blocking corridors with vehicle wrecks and graviton terrain while they themselves skim over buildings. Against infantry I guess I'd need to use Javelins instead of plasma bikers - it's always the matter of attacking with the correct elements while avoiding the dangerous dudes, and it reminds me of that princep's quote: "Make the battlefield work for you, or you will find it working for your opponent". Deredeo bubblewrapped in Wardens = Dare you attack my death guard astartes?. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 01:30, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
That's IF you can put all three in combat with the Dreadnought of course (good luck if you only manage 1). Honestly I haven't struggled much against Mechanized lists since figuring out the tactic of Infiltrating Myrmidon Secutors with graviton guns. Sure it's really dickish, however those tanks really needed to die, not to mention Infiltrate completely removes the main thing that sucks about Secutors (their short range) and I can usually trust the Myrmidons to live long enough to get their job done (I can always use Endurance on them if I'm worried). How are the Ravenwing supposed to handle those though? I'd think they could try out graviton land speeders however given that Dreads wreck armour on flyers I don't think they'd have a harder time wrecking Speeders. I'm not trying to say it's a bad Rite of War, I'm trying to figure out what it should do when faced with mechanized lists since it seems really limited to me. I guess you'd really have to place a lot of emphasis on Outriders and Jetbikes doing most of the heavy lifting, if they can get close that is (it would be nice if the protocol disabled that "one in X" requirment for gun replacements on both types of bikes) before calling in the rest of your Reserves. I do agree on that quote, which is one of the reasons the Ravenwing Protocol seems to be really difficult to use, and they just seem outright fucked if your opponent includes some Medusa's and/or Whirlwind Scorpious's (both of which I find cost surprisingly little given the damage they usually do). Another thing you might be able to do given their low points cost, is potentially spam regular speeders and/or Javelins after the bikes have wrecked a few of the dreads (wearing down their Interceptor), giving you several good spots to come on the table from (or maybe even before wrecking the dreads, so long as you have enough). Give them gravitons and/or multi-meltas and I think you could make it work, though you'd have to be really careful on your targets and this also relies on luck being in your favour, with the reserve, outflank, and vehicle damage rolls, not to mention if you sink too many points into outflanking units you're in danger of being tabled, though if they're all you have left at least you have an interesting way of ragequitting via the "Fuck it, we're going home!" Method. I don't think that's too reliable though, and some things like Mortis Contemptors with two Assault Cannons (another surprisingly cheap one given how much damage they usually do) will ruin your day. Thoughts? -- Triacom (talk) 11:43, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
I don't think I'm the best at dealing with Deredeos but, remembering grav cannons mounted on land speeders have 48" effective range and can skim, if the Deredeo doesn't have an Aiolos then you could deploy behind a LOS blocker and haywire it to death on the next turn. Dealing with a Aiolos-equipped Deredeo? Even assaulting it would be difficult, and that's ignoring any escorts. Because, with enough buildings the real problem isn't vehicles (a Flare-Ceramite Spartan can be killed by grav land speeders for less cost) but AA Dreads, given this rite's dependance on flyers (BTW). Luckily many people think 1 Deredeo is enough and so can be overwhelmed, except the Fury of the Ancient's guys (I've been too busy and still haven't read all the new rules), and Assault cannons are really nice but IMO they're hurt too much by their short range and can be dealt with in turn one. My money would be on grav land speeders to deal with the tough ones (grav doesn't need luck to work), javelins to deal with the 20-man blobs (they're immune to bolters from the front) and deepstriking suicide meltas for artillery, and the strategies you mentioned are also valid. Still, the trick is to hit first and kill stuff in one salvo so that there's one less enemy to retaliate, and get the faster their interceptors get destroyed, the better. Reading 'Sky Hunter Phallanx' I now come to realize that the thing actually has stricter limitations for less bonuses so, if the DA wanted to use lots of bikes then it should always go with the Ravenwing and never the Skyhunter phallanx. TL;DR: Stuff can be done, the odds are against it tho, and infiltrating Myrmidons are the dickiest thing ever...so you should write that ASAP. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 05:23, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
I don't think the issue's so much trying to get the weapons within range as it is a lot of speeders dying (and possibly without making a difference thanks to Atomantic Shielding), also they can't take graviton cannons, just graviton guns. With that in mind I think maybe Javelins with Lascannons might do better at getting rid of the Dreads, while you won't be outranging the Deredeo's you will be outranging the Mortis Contemptors with assault cannons (and those will turn many a land speeder into swiss cheese if you rely on graviton guns). Once the dreads are out of the way, then the grav-speeders should be free to go after the tanks, since I just feel that sending them in before the Dreads are dealt with is pretty iffy. I can agree with you that the core of the strategy to using the Ravenwing well is definitely target priority, you need to know what to take out before you bring in your reserves, as your deep-striking meltas can't do anything to that artillery if they're blown away by Interceptor, same with your flyers. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be much the Ravenwing can do to modify their own reserve rolls in a way that would help them (some units will just become available way before it's safe and will be destroyed). This is really the kind of thing that begs to have a character helping it along (preferably one that can modify your own reserve rolls so you won't be as reliant on random chance), and when we come up with a good strategy that we can both agree on I think that should go in there (contemptor/deredeo/artillery defense should be at least mentioned), and I've added that bit to Morturg's entry, along with some other dickish things you can do with him. I can definitely see him being changed later, though personally I hope not. Maybe their change will be to make him an actual Blackshield character especially since he didn't seem to die on Isstvan III (being dragged away by presumably Decima at the end of it). -- Triacom (talk) 09:58, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
Told you I wasn't the best for that one xD. Still, it's a 30" radius threat bubble. Anyway, 5 gravs can kill pretty much anything in one salvo - they could shoot, jink to survive retaliation fire and move 30" in the turn they can only snapfire, but even with jinking one of them could get Crew Stunned and the whole squadron goes nowhere, so it's not quite reliable. What I want to know is how to deal with Aiolos & Plasma carronade Deredeos (my favorite flavor) that cover all the board at once, other than "overwhelm it/bring heavier stuff". What do you think of seven plasma repeater Outriders (385pts)? Deployed the farthest you can (~12"), scouting 12" and moving 12" they have a nice chance of killing five 3++ Wardens Cataphractii. Sure, the Carronade Pavaise Deredeo will nullify them on the shooting phase (they can jink tho), but they're more expensive by 120pts. I could pay 20 more and bring another 4 meltabomb Outriders to kill the now defenseless Deredeo, and jink doesn't prohibits assaults...I guess. And the Deredeo cannot ignore the plasma bikers to focus on the melta bombers because they could go around it and target its rear AV, losing average 2.66 HP (accounting for gets hot deaths and atomantic pavaise). -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 16:15, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
Or, if you go first, do the same with grav speeders (the table is usually only 48" long after all, and Deredeos tend to be deployed a little forward to cover the whole skyline) and lose no one, jinking away the escort's retaliation fire (jinking is per model or per squad?). And it costs less so you can bring more. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 16:47, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
Yeah 5 gravs can kill pretty much any vehicle, the problem is when there's more than one vehicle that needs to die since they aren't too survivable (and if you jink then you can't shoot your graviton guns) though as we've both mentioned now spamming them is a possible tactic, though I doubt it's too efficient if the opponent is doing a Rhino Rush strategy (so maybe have the Javelins pull double duty on the Rhinos and Infantry). That's a pretty good way of dealing with them, though it is risky since that really relies on you getting first turn (anything else and they can just use Medusa's or a Scorpius and you'll have to jink then your shooting goes to shit). Normally how I'd suggest dealing with threats you can't face directly would be to just bombard them but the Dark Angels can't do that, so I'm not too sure yet how you'd deal with multiple Deredeos (especially if they take only Atomantic Pavaise and bubble wrap, because then you're committing a lot of points for very little return, though at least there's some return). Also a Plasma and Ailos Deredeo with a Grave Wardon bodyguard squad is only 70 points more than that bike squad, because the Atomantic Pavaise is an "either or" upgrade with the Aiolos. Getting an Aiolos with a plasma cannonade just seems counter-intuitive to me as well. If you get the Aiolos with the default Autocannons and an Aiolos you can safely stash him away in the backfield (after all, his primary targets are going to come to him) while if you get the plasma cannonade I'd prefer to have the durability the pavaise offers since he'll need to be much closer. Jinking works per unit, I think the only thing you'd really have to worry about with that tactic are just any Ignores Cover weapons or Thallax that somebody brought along. I also think it might be a good idea to mention the Ravenwing is very Risk Reward, because when it works in your favour it can seem great (they've definitely got the best way of dealing with 3++ saves) but when it doesn't work out it hurts bad, for example, what happens if the enemy allied in Myrmidon Destructors with a few of them armed with Irad Engines (or if they're using supreme commander asshole, get first turn and Infiltrate them in to get to give your bikes cancer)? Thankfully their plasma salvos can still take care of 3 Destructors each turn if they're the bubble wrap on the Deredeo, but if they're not (and you need to shoot another squad to get to the Deredeo) then the bikers in that case could easily be wiped out (all they need to do is hit 9 models total with 2 torrent templates, which honestly isn't that hard). It might be worth sacrificing them though so long as there was some guaranteed way of killing the Deredeos, but as of yet I'm having a tough time finding it (good thing nobody really takes Leviathans in regular games, at least in my group, so you don't have to worry about them blocking the way). -- Triacom (talk) 20:19, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
Take two 5 grav speeders then. Srsly, for every Land Raider the enemy takes you can take 4-5 land speeders. As for Rhinos, they're weak enough to not be a concern. Deredeos taking Atomantic Pavaises would actually be an easier match up than Aiolos, given how they ignore LOS and fuck up one of the skimmers saving points. A Pavaise Deredeo with retinue costs 435pts, even more if it also adds a plasma carronade. It's a rather nice return if you go first, or if you deploy behind a building. And if it shoots interception then it won't be able to shoot in its own turn. Plasma Pavaise Deredeo with Wardens costs 470pts (185+50+35+200), the seven plasma repeater bikes cost 350 (7*50, a difference of 120) and the four meltabomb bikes cost 140 (didn't feel safe with only 3). Aiolos and Pavaise were always separate comparisons, as it should be (the example is bikers vs plasma pavaise - they do better against the autocannon), and only about 4 of the 11 bikes would die. 37% is acceptable loses in order to get rid of enemy interception. Plasma Aiolos would cost 435, limiting me to 3 meltabomb bikes, one of them dying to the overwatch. What makes the Aiolos so obnoxious is its ability to ignore LOS - stashed on the backfield some skimmers could approach from a building's shadow, if not for the Aiolos. BTW, I knew Supreme Commander Asshole was too good to be true, given how only Sworn brothers can be infiltrated. As for Irradiation Myrmidons plodding along the Deredeos the regular way, that surpasses the 500pts mark (135+120+185+35+50), and their refractor fields let more shots slip through, making them a worse bubble wrap than Wardens, as they suffer more wounds even with their higher T, and if I kill enough of them (aka only 2) then I would assault them him (only if I can jink on the overwatch, tho) forgot irrad engines ignore cover. Still, D3 wounds are better than what a template would cover. I'd assault him, kill him before he can hit back and then spread on the consolidation move (not to mention I can now bring more stuff). -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 00:09, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
Take two 5 grav speeders? I'm going to assume that you mean 2 units consisting of 5 speeders all armed with grav weapons, since I don't believe you think that speeders can have 5 graviton guns on them (though that would look pretty cool). So I think we can agree then on their spammability, and I also think I've come up with a sure-fire way of dealing with Deredeo Dreads. Since you can only assault what you shoot, and since it's impossible to 100% guarantee that the enemy will die and all of your bikers survive, how about taking a character with the unit? Get a Centurion with Melta Bombs and a bike, break him off from the unit in the movement phase, and have him deal with the Deredeo while the bikes deal with the bubble wrap, then have them go off to take on something else (if you have more characters that means you can deal with more Deredeos, with the same squad getting to deal with more than one bubble wrap) and if worst comes to worst, your 80 point model can hold up a 270 point model for the game (definitely acceptable even if he can't kill it). Also you seem to be changing the points costs a little, in that it was a difference in 70 points since you mentioned a squad costing 385 and an Aiolos Plasma Deredeo with Grave Warden bubble wrap costs 455. Are you suddenly not taking melta bombs on the unit? Also why was the example now bikers vs plasma pavaise when it was bikers vs aiolos pavaise earlier? That's the one I was using as reference since you said it was your favourite. -- Triacom (talk) 08:38, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
Yep, that's what I meant. And I mentioned Aiolos Plasma Deredeo was my favorite, not that I knew how to deal with those, so I tried to deal with the other one, without meltabombs (yes, I forgot to substract the meltabomb cost now that they didn't have them (they didn't get to use them), on the other comment it's just 7*50). Although using a Centurion is a better idea than the four extra bikers, but I'm not too sure - he wouldn't be able to charge since on that example the unit scouted forward. But plasma deredeos are deployed forward than the others, so it could still be. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 14:03, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
Well if he really needs to wait, then that's not so bad since the regular squad would have needed to wait anyway. So long as he doesn't die (hopefully you can stick him somewhere out of sight) he shouldn't have a problem holding up the Deredeo, and that still means 2 characters can tie up 2 Deredeo on turn 2. -- Triacom (talk) 19:18, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
Now for Supreme Commander Asshole: Hmm... I have to wonder about that, though only because of the spirit of fair play, and I'm going to argue that he's still in business RAW wise. Master of Ambush says pick three non-vehicle units, which doesn't mean friendly units, it means any units at all, you can technically give that advantage to the enemy if you really wanted (or to another player if you're playing a 3P+ game), and if we really want to be technical, they don't get/benefit from the warlord trait, they're getting/benefiting from Infiltrate for the entire game, not to mention if we're using the usual idea of more recent material overwriting the previous stuff, the 7th edition rulebook would overwrite the Crusade Legions book. If you want to claim that the Crusade book overwrites the main book and that they're benefiting from the Warlord Trait by getting Infiltrate, then technically that isn't correct either, a special rule isn't by definition a benefit, it can be a detriment as well (so can Infiltrate if you set it up wrong) so since they aren't technically benefiting by virtue of getting it (I think we both can agree a death sentence isn't a benefit, and since all of the Infiltraters you use are pretty much guaranteed to die), and since it says to pick any three non-vehicle units, it doesn't contradict anything RAW wise. Think of it more as how a lot of Mechanicus Characters came out without the Independent Character rule so that they could join any unit (even ones IC's couldn't normally join). That said as I mention I generally don't like to use it unless I know I'm going to be up against a really Mech-heavy list (or a rules lawyer, both of those can fuck off). Basically to argue for rules like that in an actual game you'd have to be the Supreme Commander Asshole in order to use Supreme Commander Asshole, as it should be. Also could you enlighten me on this, what's so important on surpassing the 500 point mark? Yes it's a large amount of points, however so long as they protect the army in different ways (ie shoot fast targets that like to use cover saves while the Deredeo takes on flyers and anything it can use its Interceptor on). -- Triacom (talk) 08:38, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
...Naaah, I'd say getting an extra rule from an allied (or enemy) Warlord does count as 'benefitting', as they are gaining two new modes of deployment: Infiltration and/or Outflank (poor me, now I can CREEED), not to mention Infiltrate doesn't prohibit deploying normally - where's the detriment? You said it yourself, infiltrate a Thanatar on top of some ruins and see what kills it. Hell, your own Moritats wouldn't get Infiltrate because "They may not benefit from...beneficial special rules provided by other friendly models...", and 30k's allies matrix explicitly says only sworn brothers may benefit. Even in 40k, Allies of Convenience and worse cannot benefit from your WT, so it's not being overridden (not to mention this isn't 40k to begin with - I've yet to see full HH:6 tho, but all books have been consistent up to this point). Pick three non vehicles, now gift them a rule - woah, pick sworn/battle brothers, or like Moritats, they won't benefit (and by your definition, will have the rule but won't be able to use it, being essentially a waste). I'm assuming you're saying AdMech ICs can now join their own units (which is a patch), but they had to be given a special rule to join their monstrous automata, and the only non-AdMech squads they can join are IW/IH/Sal/RG squads. About surpassing the 500pts mark, that's not a rule or anything, it's just that it's a lot of points, comparable to a Spartan spearhead, which can take on a Deredeo & Rad Myrmidons sitting ducks without suffering any damage. Equivalent Spartan Spearhead, I used them as a measuring unit of sorts, but maybe I'll switch to Equivalent Deredeo Retinue.-- Zerghalo2 (talk) 14:03, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
That really depends on how you want to argue it, for example Infiltrate's only great if I get to go first, and even if I do and I've sent Myrmidons to the other side of the table via Infiltrate, I can guarantee they're going to die (it's happened every game so far), which I'd hope we can both agree isn't a benefit to the unit, in the same way that getting the Daemon result on Dark Channeling isn't exactly a benefit because the unit counts as destroyed at the end of the battle. If you get to go first and decide to counter the deployment by shooting them all to death turn 1 via plasma salvos before I could use them (and honestly that's a pretty huge possibility for the Dark Angels), then where's the benefit? Also Outflank might end up hurting you way more than it helps, since they might end up right in front of all the enemies guns or in the middle of nowhere on Turn 4 way after they were needed to show up. I'm so lucky to have that "benefit". For the Moritat example, hey, it's not like Games Workshop's a stranger to giving rules to models that they can't use, just look at the discussion on Shrike (it's in the Space Marine tactics page), or for a Forgeworld example, Eidolon before one of their FAQ's, since it said when he charged his hammer lost the Cumbersome special rule, which would be great if his hammer had it (though I could argue the Moritat could get Infiltrate in the same way). No that's not what I meant when I was talking about the AdMech, I was talking about how they had some Characters who didn't have Independent Character and when I emailed them about it they said there technically wasn't anything stopping them from joining a unit IC's couldn't (following all the rules for Characters, not IC's) such as Monstrous Creatures. Lastly, where does it say "A special rule is always a benefit"? -- Triacom (talk) 19:18, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
Dude, they're gaining new ways of deployment, how effective that is depends on you (you end up getting rid of those nasty heavies, aren't you?). A lot of things have bad sides: Fearless prevents you from using OWAU, Deepstrike can be bad if you end up inside a wall, Jink fucks up your aim, etc., the same way getting Daemon means the squad counts as destroyed, but a 20-man tactical squad with 5++ and Fear can be put to good use. "I can guarantee they're going to die" anything can die on the tabletop, special rules aren't an insurance against death - that's the very concept of suicide squads right there. And you should give Triarii to your Myrmidons when outflanking them. But regarding Infiltrate, guess what? Nobody forces you to use it - if you're so worried about ending up in the wrong spot, you can 'infiltrate' them in your own deployment zone. Infiltrate, such a bad rule - that's why they place it as a WT and confer it to three squads. Grand Strategist, the thing that made Creed such a bad HQ, right? And the Moritat example isn't about giving him rules he can't use but about giving him a rule that prevents him from benefitting from other rules, which was a deliberate addition as it was included on later editions; this restriction isn't too different to the "Sworn Brothers only" restriction, which is even older. And, if you remember, I too wrote on Shrike's discussion, and I'm partial to the 'No conflict' and 'Codex trumps core rules' viewpoints, given how his rule existed before the FAQ arrived so, before December 2015 he effectively granted the benefit curse of infiltration to any jump unit he joined. About Eidolon, that was an obvious typo instead of a rules conflict, the same as Kyr Vhalen's Relic blade. Furthermore, consider the sentence "In essence, the two forces fight alongside each other without any additional positive or negative effect". I'm of the idea that Master of Ambush cannot affect enemies even if it doesn't explicitly mentions it (Princeps of Deceit had to mention it affected the enemy to be able to), but this previous quote would mean, even if you could give Master of Ambush to your enemy (you can't), you cannot give it to a Fellow Warrior. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 21:20, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
Yeah how effective that is depends on me, the enemy, and the dice rolls, which means it's not a flat benefit. By itself it isn't a positive or negative effect. Yeah I'm not forced to use it, and if I don't use it then it certainly isn't a benefit. I was under the impression that Creed was great because of his Tactical Genius rule, which granted Scout, not Infiltrate. Yeah Shrike was very obviously supposed to be able to Infiltrate with an assault squad, though thanks to how it's worded, just like it was determined that he can no longer join any squads, he actually wasn't restricted to just assault squads (since the wording was just that shitty). Yeah Eidolon's is a very obvious mistake, however I think you get what I mean. Another example would be the Cortica Primus for AdMech, which was an overpriced Cortex Controller for a long time since its special abilities couldn't be used by the models who could buy it (and even now its special abilities can only be used by one model out of the several that can buy it). Why does Master of Ambush need to specify that it can't affect enemies when it just says "units"? -- Triacom (talk) 21:43, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
Infiltrate and Scout both grant Outflank, and both ways it gets squads where the enemy didn't expect them, which can lead them to strike the enemy's weak spot if you get it right (or/and get them killed if you don't). And Outflank has a 66% of getting the side you want anyway. "By itself it isn't a positive or negative effect", what is it to you, then? To me, Shrike was fine until December (I really don't remember if the "and viceversa" part the FAQ mentions was already there, but my rulebook doesn't have it). The Cortica Primus example is true, tho, but given how fucking powerful it is I don't mind to have it restricted to the Cybernetica, as I wrote here. As for MoA specifying, it's because the WTs that affect the enemy explicitly say so, it would say "yours or your enemy's" like Strategic Genius "failed or successful". But Fellow Warriors aren't Enemies in the first place, just units that cannot be attacked, don't count as friendlies most of the time and cannot benefit from effects either beneficial or detrimental. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 02:19, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
They get you to where your opponent wasn't expecting them? Unless your opponent has never read the rule before, and you don't follow the rules and refuse to explain to them what Outflank means, as well as which models are in reserve, they will be expecting them to show up on the left or the right. To me a special rule is just something that messes with all preceding rules, for example I'm certain that we can both agree the Cumbersome special rule sucks ass and makes awesome weapons into terrible ones. In the case of Infiltrate it's more of a neutral effect because there's a very good chance that what I'm trying to do will be undermined by me not getting turn 1 (though I'm definitely willing to gamble on it). I'm also not willing to gamble on Outflank because I usually have terrible luck with reserve rolls and having to wait 4 turns for a unit I needed on turn 2 or 3 isn't something I consider a positive, though I'm sure other people will be willing to gamble on it. Yeah the FAQ just flat out overwrote the main rulebook, and I don't really get why. So because the WT doesn't specifically say it affects the enemy then that means it can't? I'm pretty sure "three non-vehicle units of your choice" means "three non-vehicle units of your choice" unless you can show me exactly where it specifically says that it can't, otherwise by your own logic this trait cannot affect friendly units since all other traits that affect friendly units say they do. -- Triacom (talk) 03:34, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
Wasn't the meme about hiding a Titan behind a lamp post and the like? And the enemy knows what is going to deploy differently, not what exactly they're going to do. If you're going to depend on reserves, then you'd do well in getting some insurance, like a Proteus spartan or something. This is assuming "units of your choice" assumes they're your units to begin with. I guess they could have written "non-vehicle friendly units" and be done with it, albeit the Fellow Warriors restriction pretty much says "any effect, positive or negative you may think of, just no". Ie: they can infiltrate near one of your Augury scanners (ignores detriment), but their deepstrike will scatter even if they do it near them (ignores benefit). RAW vs RAI, this is why we need FAQs. We could really use a third opinion...they just need to read this talk, lel. If it serves as a consolation, the RG now cannot infiltrate Myrmidons due to the "and viceversa" part, so maybe it was for the best. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 04:48, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
Yeah that was the joke, however it was just the scout rule (which also conferred outflank, so somehow nobody saw that massive super-heavy sneak up on them). The enemy knows exactly as much as the player who's using them, in that neither of them know for sure where they'll show up. The enemy also knows what they're armed with (so they know what they're going to do), and if they're in a transport they also know which transport, and exactly everyone in it and everything about it. So you admit that you're just assuming because the book doesn't say so? Well I'm glad we cleared that up. Yeah they could have written that, but then again they could've written Shrikes rules to make sense and they didn't do that either. Also the book says "in essence, they're just both there" which is a designers note/summary, not a rule (so it's clearly RAI) and the only rule is that they can't benefit from Warlord Traits, which I've already gone over. Yeah it's why we need FAQ's, and also proofreaders, since that would have stopped a lot of the issues in the books to begin with. -- Triacom (talk) 05:59, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
You put it as if alternate deployment modes were the worst thing that could happen to anyone, yet call Morturg an almost-autoinclude. "You're just assuming", as if the book didn't explicitly said they don't benefit from allied WTs, and you're quite eager to dismiss the designer's explanation as if it lacked any and all sort of value. But yeah, I guess the authors are only explaining what that rule means, it's not a big deal, right? I guess the only opinions that would matter would be the ones from two anons on a talk page. And Shrike's rules did make sense before December! (and the discussion began in June). If he's an example of anything, it's about rules obsolescense and/or lack of communications among GW staff. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 06:58, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
Given how a two way talk is inherently limited in points of view I...tricked a few anons into thinking for us a bit. Before it advances any further, I'd like you to participate on it. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 07:37, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
I'm just trying to point out that they're by definition a straight up benefit. If I can Infiltrate chem-flamers close enough that they can be used in turn 1, that's awesome. I also stated that it's a gamble I like to use, and for the most part I've been arguing for over RAW for something I probably won't ever use again since you pointed out something I missed unless I'm playing against another person who's making similar arguments (I thought that would be clear from what I said on the gentlemen's agreement section). Many people dismiss the designers explanation/intention especially if it's poorly written (was it really impossible for them to FAQ Shrike?). If people didn't do that then we wouldn't have a page for rules lawyers. -- Triacom (talk) 07:41, 28 February 2016 (UTC) Quick edit, you uploaded that link while I was typing this (so I didn't know that was there), so I'm going to see where that conversation goes.
Second Edit: Oh, it looks like I actually don't need to watch that conversation. The least you could do is present the argument that I used and your counter "I'm claiming this, they're claiming this", rather than portray your own argument in a way that'll get everyone to side with you because it represents your viewpoint and only your viewpoint without even trying to show the other argument. That's a move only a complete asshole would make. -- Triacom (talk) 07:52, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
Which is why I want you to do something similar...albeit done rightly instead of my poor execution. It was a mistake, I know! A complete asshole would take the results of that tread seriously, I won't, because I see it more as an example of my fail rather than something with any semblance of revelance, I promise (I notified you when there was only one comment which I thought wouldn't represent a trend). I repeat: this doesn't count, either good or bad (besides showing my argumentation skills need way more polish). Surerly there'll be another thread tomorrow, with fresh people as the ones here may go to sleep soon. I want you to expose the argument right, because there is one thing I truly believe: we can use those daily treads as computational resource. Again, sorry, and it doesn't count. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 08:03, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
I kinda regret that move. They're more...blunt. But that was expected. About Shrike, well, I've never recieved a GW answer, so it doesn't surprise me they have pretty much ignored the issue, which is why I lean towards using RAI, which immediately fixes his rule. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 07:47, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
The problem is generally that people who browse /tg/ and its specific subjects aren't varied people, in that people who look at the Fantasy rules don't browse 40k rules and vice versa. Somebody who's interested in 40k rules won't necessarily be interested in Horus Heresy rules and you're going to be coming across mostly the same people who are going to remember that (you can see the best evidence for this on Horus Heresy forums), so making a thread tomorrow will have the same people on it, not to mention the mods like deleting any duplicates, and asking a second time what a rule really constitutes within 24 hours is a good way to have that thread deleted, or have you redirected over to the other thread where it was already answered. Most importantly, nobody really cares about a question put forward again, so most people that would be interested in a rules debate wouldn't answer if they see the previous question (I can guarantee the a number or replies will be "wasn't this already asked?"). Now if you couldn't guess, this isn't something I think that people should do in regular games, which is why I haven't re-added it to Morturg's section, not even as a loophole and I've mentioned that if I use it, it'll be against people who argue really ridiculous claims as well because they're all good sports about this sort of thing (one I particularly liked was somebody claiming that since a bike can fire as many weapons as it has crew, and since it never states how many crew are on it you can model it so that three space marines are hanging onto it, so that they can all use different weapons). I'm not annoyed by how they responded, just how the debate was presented. -- Triacom (talk) 08:17, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
But people need to know basic 7E rules in order to be able to play 30k, so I think they'd be schooled in them, not to mention this could be asked on normal 40k forums by rewording it a little (Fellow brothers is worded almost exactly the same as Allies of convenience, and I didn't touch what I felt it was the most controversial thing: infiltrating unit selection), so it could be pretended Creed is the MoA, trying to infiltrate some fire dragons free from 30k's atmosphere. And I'd say then maybe a few days and it'll be almost forgotten, not to mention it would definitely be different people if asked on another unspecified day with a 12 hour difference (it's not like this discussion is time sensitive). I guess the way to present questions on /tg/ is to write them as statements and see whether people react favorably or not, instead of a yes/no answer. I wish I could say it was a new thing, but no (link broken now). And, back when I thought it was legal, I agreed with the trick, I want people to use all the tricks there can be (like exploding a Spartan with a Saboteur, even if I don't play AL, or dissapearing up to S4 with the DG). I thought the attack bike states it has a driver and a passenger, tho. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 08:53, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
I'll try this again, 30k Codex's are books in 40k, specifically space marine and AdMech books, somebody who's interested in them isn't likely to be just as interested in Necrons and vice versa (and from what I've found, there's a lot less interest in 30k than there is in regular Space Marines). Yes they'd need to know the rules, however I'm saying that if you ask the question again you're just going to get the same people who already replied to it. Yeah if I was to ask it I'd wait about a week or so, but honestly I'm really not bothered by it (if I was I'd try putting it back in Morturg's section as an exploit). Also questions like these are a little time-sensitive on /tg/, if only because it takes a few hours for unpopular threads on /tg/ to be archived (or even under an hour if you're really unlucky), then they'll be deleted some time later, so it isn't really the best place to ask (especially since whatever they come to will be deleted as well). Also while the attack bikes state they have a driver and a passenger (at least I'm pretty sure they do), the regular bikes do not state how many marines are on them. Besides, I'm sure I'll come up with some other way of getting the same effect, for example, I've been thinking of adding in how you can Infiltrate in allies with Melta guns/bombs, like Reaver Squads or Justaerin Terminators (who can also take combi-plasma for fucking up bikes, or combi-melta/chainfists for armour) since Horus and Mortarion are best buds (the only reason I haven't added it is due to lack of playtesting). In essence, I'm going to get the same effect, just in a different way. -- Triacom (talk) 09:17, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
That's why disguising the question as a 40k question wouldn't have the problem of 30k people remembering from threads past, given how 40k and 30k tend to be different people. I don't know, it's just a proposal. Infiltrating a LR with Justaring and a few chainfists, that's gotta kill the target and survive, and it's a better tactic now that they aren't overcosted as they used to be. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 20:51, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
Oh, I see what you mean now. Yeah that could be posted as a general question, though it would need to be absolutely clear that it's a "rules lawyer/loophole" type of thread (and also make it clear that you don't intend to use it in normal games, it's a "just for fun thread"). I think Infiltrating a Phobos is one of the ways the Phobos could be useful, since you could use its Lascannons on vehicles and equip the Justaerin for killing lot's of high T/2+ saves (it needs to accomplish two roles, so the Justaerin do one while it does the other) and also Chainfists to deal with any heavily armoured vehicles the Lascannons can't really deal with (and considering the Phobos is an assault vehicle it's not like a Spartan is going to outrun them). So I think I will re-add the Supreme Commander Asshole section back in since it still does what was intended, just with a different army. -- Triacom (talk) 21:51, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
I was reading the SoHs section to see what squads would benefit the most with attached DG characters' rad grenades, but then I read it: Bitter Pride. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 00:00, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
Damn, I forgot about that, and here I was thinking that I'd found a way to make the Sons of Horus marginally useful, whereas in most games I've played against them they're well below average. -- Triacom (talk) 02:01, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
Well I found a way to give that back to him again, but it's a real shame that the Sons have that Bitter Pride rule. No joke I was seriously considering buying some to use not only with the Death Guard but with the other armies I proxy like Word Bearers and Emperor's Children, since the one thing they all share is their status with the Warmaster's Legion, however now there's really no point since gameplay wise they're sub-par and narrative wise they're assholes. -- Triacom (talk) 02:24, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, I was thinking about Shattered legions too. You could also infiltrate legion specifics as long as you also have an HQ of the legion you want, which is a trick the AL can't do, as they can do so with only one squad, like bringing along Shabran Dahr and Red Butchers (as long as both of you decide to ignore the allegiance restrictions), or stuff like that. I'm not too sure if they'll be able to get rad grenades while they ride vehicles, as not even sworn brothers can share transports. Correction, they don't need an attached DG IC to get them, as the RoW would give them access to rad on their own. Enjoy infiltrating rad chem flamer pyroclasts, multiple infiltrating Tyrants and Fulmentarii and the like. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 02:32, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
The Shattered Legions rules are ones I didn't really want to resort to, but I figure it might as well be significant enough to mention (as far as I've seen Morturg gets arguably the best Warlord Trait so why not). Unfortunately too you can't give Rad Grenades to allies since they mention not only does it have to be characters in the primary detachment, they also have to be Death Guard. Now on that note, is there any way to make the Sons of Horus useful since as far I can see they're the third worst Legion, beating out Thousand Sons and Space Wolves only because neither of them have rules yet. Maybe that's also because I haven't lost a game to them (regardless of whether I'm playing Death Guard, Word Bearers, or Emperor's Children). The reason I think they're bad is because they always have a poor showing, not just in games I've played but games that I've watched. Their assault bonuses are pathetic (while Merciless Fighters looks good on paper it usually doesn't work in close combat thanks to overwatch, and/or the other Legions having their melee bonuses take place first), their ranged bonuses are also pathetic and too costly when compared to other choices (and their own drawbacks) and their reserve bonuses are easily countered by Interceptor shooting them when they arrived. Their only real bonuses are being able to do lite versions of what everyone else can do without the right equipment or rules for attempting those things. -- Triacom (talk) 02:52, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
Only characters or ICs on the primary detachment with the LA(DG) rule may buy rad grenades, true, but also "any effects described in the Rite of War described as applying to models with a specific version of the Legiones Astartes special rule are applied acros the army to all units in it with any version of the Legiones Astartes special rule". Following that convention, you could do stuff like giving rad grenades to Raven characters (who also have natural furious charge), albeit the mobility restriction would also become global (as well as getting army-wide Move Through Cover). Also, "flame weapons taken as part of a Death Guard force may be upgraded to special issue Chem-munitions", it's more like a primary detachment option, thus, if a DG character is the warlord (Morturg) is it still considered a DG force? If it was/n't, then: a) We could have chem salamanders, but only if Morturg is the warlord, OR b) Not even flamer squads with the Legiones Astartes (Death Guard) rule would be able to equip chem, given how they're not part of a DG force anymore, but a Shattered Legions one. Thoughts anyone? Maybe where Morturg really shines is at Shattered Legions...I mean, it's not like infiltrating a LR with Chainfist Wardens/meltabomb EternalDeathshroud FnP sucks (you didn't quite mentioned them in Supreme Commander Asshole Death Guard Creeeeeed, no need for the 250pts handicap), but reword it in a way that it talks about what he can do with his legion first and then the shenanigans that can be done in SLegions, and redirect them there with a link to the subsection. That's what I'd do (but won't do in several hours because busy). I don't know where to add the SLegion combos. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 11:40, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
Ah I see, then yes that would mean everyone could get them and so long as they have jump packs or transports I've never really missed running, auto-passing dangerous terrain tests in particular would be a large boon to the Raven Guard as well (not to mention The Reaping allows both taking allies and a Fortification unlike most other Legion-specific Rites of War). Unfortunately I don't think you can get chem-salamanders (as great as that would be) since in my opinion a Shattered Legion army would consist of: C) many forces using each other as allies (death guard force, salamanders force, etc), so since you can't buy your allies Legion-specific benefits then I don't think that changes for a Shattered Legions army. Maybe other people have other opinions on that and think that the force is whatever your warlord is, in which case Morturg would be an auto-take for me in pretty much every Shattered Legion army I'm going to play (it's honestly kind of a toss-up, though I'm slightly leaning towards the forces being separate ones). Now that one would be a good one to ask /tg/ about to get a variety of opinions. Yeah I'll add that, as well as using normal Terminators with combi-weapons (both strategies are what I'm going to have to use now to get the job done), though it's not quite as fun as using Legion specific units and those are usually better overall (and generally I just like seeing teamwork between the various Legions since I prefer playing Loyalists). Maybe I actually will get some Justaerin and just use them as proxies of normal Terminators to at least get the feel of Legions working together (because fuck bitter pride). I think I'll move the Shattered Legions on Morturg's section over to the Shattered Legions section, any character that offers a huge benefit and is really worth considering for that kind of army, so far I can think of Morturg, Shadrak Meduson and Kyr Vhalen for the loyalists, and with Sevatar, Typhon, Armillus Dynat and maybe Maloghurst (for his fearless bubble and general advantages) for the traitors. -- Triacom (talk) 21:21, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
Still, no Justaerin 'cause the SoHs don't lose Bitter Pride, unlike the IHs losing Rigid Tactics and the like. I'll leave Morturg's Shatterd Legion's excerpt kinda empty, so you can think about combos while I'm away. Something with Furious charge and Power Axes, with preference. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 03:37, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, that's hands down one of the worst Legion Drawbacks (fitting for what I'm sure will end up being the worst Legion, though I've definitely decided to proxy them as regular Death Guard termies if I want to use those), I think we might have tapped out on combos that can be mentioned with Morturg (I've added the others and mentioned the huge advantages to using him in a Shattered Legions army), at least until a few more Agents of the Imperium come out. -- Triacom (talk) 20:06, 5 March 2016 (UTC)
Dunno, they make up for having six times more Sworn brothers than the DG, kinda like they are meant to be the primary detachment, always on charge. And using a MoA Delegatus with Death Dealers to infiltrate Plasma Justaerin can be powerful, not to mention almost all their handguns become nice at 12". I'd say they're fine on their own and when leading. And Justaerin's main flaw was their price, and that has been fixed now. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 01:14, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
Oh I'm certainly not going to deny that they have a lot of Sworn Brothers, however they have no great rules that benefit allies and no great Warlord Traits (mostly just average ones). If you're getting another Legion to help them do their job, then why not just play as that Legion instead? Also getting MoA on a Delegatus isn't really unique to them, or reliable, it's a trick that'll work 1/3rd of the time, though I suppose it's the best they've got, I'm also not sure of what you mean by the handgun comment. Yeah their main flaw was their price, and I'm genuinely happy that's fixed, but I still can't really see them doing all that well against other Legion armies because the Sons require a lot more investment. Let's say you want to take advantage of merciless fighters, it sure looks like a good rule, well you can expect to be up against 10-MEQ blobs armed with similar equipment, so you'll need to take more than 10 to guarantee you can use it. Whoops, you can't ride in a Rhino now, neither can you use a Drop Pod. Well hopefully they're going to come to you, or you get MoA, or you get them some larger transport which means you're now really cranking up the points on the unit. Sure you could take Terminators, but those come with a lot of the same problems, if you choose non-AP2 weapons, you're unlikely to kill enough enemy TEQs to get them down enough models, and even if you do, the only ones who can make an extra attack are those who don't have AP2 weaponry. Well you might think that you'll deepstrike in and get them next turn, and then they get shot by a Deredeo or some Contemptor Dreadnought. You might think for the MEQs to use the Banestrike rounds and then charge, but they're still rapid fire, and at only 18" meaning that for pseudo-rending that you can only get for IC's and Seeker Squads, but Seeker Squads have better shots by default and IC's can just pay 5 points more for Combi-plasma (their only real benefit being on Reaver Squads, who used to stand head and shoulders above everything else in that Legion by being all right, though at least the Justaerin are with them now). -- Triacom (talk) 03:46, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
I actually think we should add an Allies/Sworn Brothers tactics excerpt on each legion, kinda like I did on the IW section. "they have no great rules that benefit allies" Want to make your Wardens and Deathshroud even more of a tarpit? Attach Maloghurst (you brought him, right?) and the squad is now Fearless and has Adamantium Will, meaning it has a 2+ DtW modifier (because I know Morturg is there too). Want your termies on point? Attach Abaddon and now they Deepstrike and are Fearless (says any attached termie unit), and his Cataphracti doesn't prevent the Deathshroud from sweep advancing (being unspecified terminator armour, can the Deathshroud use Cataphractii?, and wtf does his "Rites of War" rule means?). Or be loyal and hang around Loken and enjoy his Ld10 bubble. Now picture them near Imperial Army Levy squads, thus becomming Stubborn Ld10 or outright 50 fearless bodies, something only other three legions can do. Picture them alongside ECs who will now either Sweep Advance at best or remain engaged at worst, in all cases becoming prey for 'Cut them Down', and they can do all of this while they also perform their own RoW, with lessened risk of having to deploy their stuff until turn 4. About the Delegatus, back on the day the only Delegatus was Autilon Skorr, so I assumed all Delegatii could choose their WT, but seems only he can do it - I shall correct it. About the handguns, Death Dealers man - pretty much all their infantry weapons become BS5 within 12", not bad. In fact they can pull your "kill them with combiplasma" trick better than most others. Volkite squads? Better too. And Merciless fighters isn't meant to be used to give the regular squads an edge in combat, but to ease sweep advances IF you get them - you barely won the combat? Let him lose more models and have a greater Ld penalty. Tied combat not against EC? Well let us have a little extra help. They're gangers, it's not supposed to be a fair fight, it's adding insult to injury. It's our duty not only to record the meta, but to create it as well. Lurked around /tg/ for awhile, I liked that some used the literal expressions that are on the wiki. I'm not saying they're the best, but they can be used. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 04:46, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
Maloghurst is already outdone by a regular command squad, being equally as expensive as a five man squad, or five points less than a vanilla squad with a transport, both of which are going to outdo him both in survivability and in killing power. His only real advantage is making Reaver Squads troops and having an okay WT. Granted Adamantium Will is all right, though I don't consider the premium worth it given how uncommon Psykers are in this environment (not to mention they can just target a different unit and with Endurance on the unit it's unlikely I'll need AW since pretty much everything I can use AW on Endurance will already protect me from). Abaddon allowing them to Deepstrike isn't that great, especially with Interceptor and I've always considered Infiltrate to be better than Deep Strike. Fearless is okay, but for a fraction of the cost I could just get a Chaplain, hell I can get two Chaplains to watch over different units (and they also offer Hatred) for less than Abaddon costs. Also given how it says "Terminator Armour" for Abaddon, rather than Tartaros or Cataphractii, I'd think it defaults to Indomitus, though maybe that's just me. Rites of War is sometimes a rule given to a model, sometimes not, saying that they can take a Rite of War, which is redundant since Master of the Legion already lets you do that and the Rites of War rule is only given to models with Master of the Legion (it honestly seems like a mistake, much like a lot of other rules we've already mentioned, see Eidolon as an example). Loken isn't a good idea because to get the bubble I lose Master of Ambush, which is far better and Deathshroud are already Ld 10 (not to mention Stubborn with Mortarion) and instead of him I can just stick a Command Squad where I'd usually put Loken to get a Fearless bubble that has the same range as his Ld 10 bubble except they're 75 points cheaper. Unfortunately Maloghurst doesn't do anything with Levy Sqauds, his standard only works on units with the LA rule, though Loken might be useful for them (though for his cost, I could buy two Chaplains instead and get actual fearless for five points less). They do need to use their own RoW for "Cut Them Down" and for that rule to take effect they need to attack a unit that wasn't broken in the first charge (and if your EC aren't clearing in one turn you're either really unlucky or didn't outfit them right, also the extra Initiative on the Emperor's Children will help out a bit more in surviving the fight, not to mention they have better melee weapons). I guess Death Dealers is nice (I don't have Retribution so I forgot they had it, since I did read their list on this page before, though mostly I write based on what's in my Campaign Legions book) so at least they've got one nice boost to their rules, though I still don't really see that bonus being what makes the Legion worth it (though I guess we'll see with future games). It's like how people were saying the Imperial Fists were so great, when I've found that Medusa's, plasma, and poison work just as well against them as they do everyone else. If Merciless Fighters is not meant to help them win close combats, then that means they have a huge disadvantage in melee given that they've got worse rules and wargear when compared to other melee Legions. I'm also not saying that they're dogshit on their own, I think they're still head and shoulders above most 40k armies, like pretty much everything in 30k, however I do think that when compared to every other Legion they just pale by comparison, which was what I've been saying since the first point I made against them. -- Triacom (talk) 06:40, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
Maloghurst is meant to be a support dude when you already have one Legion Banner and you want another. And Reaver squad troops (meh). For Adamantium Will I was thinking about Word Bearers, Salamanders' new RoW, upcoming Thousand Sons and stuff - not critical but it can help, but Fearless was my primary concern. Doesn't Legion Standards affect "All the controlling player's units with the Legiones Astartes rule within 6" of the bearer"? (never says "the same version of the Legiones Astartes rule", so it could give Fearless to ECs, like that time where they were seconded to the Luna Wolves). And an Ld10 bubble to herd multiple Militia around with the right Provenances - the tarpit to end all tarpits. Although yeah, Chaplains could be attached to those squads too (overlaps with cult horde, but can't be used with Loken anyway), but at least the SoH player can attach them to other squads, although if he is using the Reaving then usually only one HQ slot is available. You could send Militia and gain Rage after they managed to tie up a squad. Deathdealers is nice, especially for terminators (relentless/combiweapons/volkite) or some squad's bolt pistols about to charge, helping a bit to get the Merciless bonus (which they would get on your 10 vs 10 example, as 10 pistols > 10 bolters in overwatch, even without accounting for the charge bonus). Yes, I too likened Death dealers to the Fists' bonus (albeit with a different purpose) in the way that it was a very general boost so it came to play rather often, not that it made them somehow invincible (Tank Hunters on Heavy Support squads tho, that's quite nice). But it applies to special weapons too, and a little more accuracy on plasma guns is always welcome. But yeah, it's hard to see the uses of Merciless Fighters, except maybe against stuff like AdMech, which are Stubborn and rely on multiple wounds rather than multiple models, meaning you have to hack them all apart rather than sweep advance them. Deepstriking is very useful on maps with a lot of buildings (to block LOS to interceptors) or in zones mortalis (if you play that), not to mention Abaddon can prevent the "All your dudes die" mishap result. About the Terminator armour's pattern, I was asking to know whether Deathshroud may Sweep Advance or not (their models look like Tartaros to me), the same doubt applying to Phoenix Terminators. And who says Deathshroud is accompanying Loken? Or that Mortarion is with them (instead of Horus, giving all units in the army Outflank, and seizing initiative, and having no scatter)? (Mortarion does affect his army's explosives, regardless of level of alliance). Or that all examples are considering the Death Guard as allies? Most of the morale stuff is actually meant for the Militia. I understood it as you were saying they sucked, rather than "most are better" tho, but I don't get how Reavers are good, they're too expensive IMO. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 09:50, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, but you didn't establish that in the scenario I was already using the banner elsewhere, or that I had already bought a command squad (which seems a little pointless when I've got Maloghurst, if I wanted the stats I'd just get Reavers and if I wanted to do better in combat I'd get Chaplains), which is why I pointed out that he gets outdone by a command squad. Yes Maloghurst has a Fearless bubble to Space Marines, however he doesn't do anything to Levy Squads unless you have him join the unit since you said they could benefit from his Fearless bubble, and last I checked Levy Squads don't have the LA rule. Yeah I was thinking that Death Dealers would at least let them use Merciless Fighters a little more often, so long as they can get in to assault without losing that many Marines, though I still question that a bit, if they're up against a ranged list I'd expect them to lose enough that they won't get it before charging, if they're against a melee list I'd expect them to lose one too many before Initiative 1 to gain the advantage, so you'd still probably want to buy extra marines to ensure you outnumbered the enemy (I guess future games will tell). Abaddon can't really prevent everyone from dying from a bad roll, he just lets you re-roll it, so they're essentially safe on a 2+ (it's close enough to it). I suppose it would be useful for Zone Mortalis, however much like pretty much everything about the Sons of Horus, I'm not sure about the price, pretty much every Terminator unit you're putting him in is going to rack up to 450+ points (so long as you're actually equipping them and not running them vanilla). I didn't comment on them striking in behind buildings because I honestly consider it pretty much the same issue, the cost for doing that's a bit absurd (though at least Abaddon doesn't have the Jealous Command rule). Oh, Deathshroud are in Tartaros Terminator armour so they are allowed to Sweep Advance. Also looking on Abaddon's rules again I think his armour is essentially Tartaros with a 4++ save, since it says that it's an "armour plate" (so it's terminator armour in the same way that Horus wears terminator armour) with relentless. As far as I'm aware the Phoenix Terminators are also in Tartaros armour. Nobody says the Deathshroud were with Loken, I was pointing out I didn't need him to be the Warlord to get Ld 10 where I need it (even/especially if I'm using the DG as allies). I also brought up Mortarion to point out that their Leadership could still be buffed further within their own legion, also Horus only grants Outflank to Sons of Horus. Yeah I kind of guessed that you might have been using the DG as allies, but honestly even regular Marines can outdo what a lot of their characters do. If you want Fearless but don't care for Reavers, skip Maloghurst, if you also think Abaddon is too expensive (for contrast Typhon costs 10 points less yet he's a lvl 1 Psyker, has chem-bombardment, a MC Manreaper and Rad Grenades, as well as the same armour and invuln) then you're better off with a Praetor, and a kitted out Praetor with Cataphractii Armour costs 30 points less, has more attacks (both with Digital Lasers and by being able to use Merciless Fighters, something Abaddon can't do with his fist) and has AP2 that strikes at Initiative. Get a good transport and now you've got a unit that can handle one thing while the tank handles another, and you can charge in the turn that the deep-strike would normally arrive (so that you aren't counter-charged and this way you don't need to worry about buying reserve modifying vehicles). I thought that was clear since I had mentioned several times that they were bad by comparison. Yeah Reaver Squads are expensive, then again so is everything unique to SoH, even Justaerin now, while not being overpriced, certainly aren't a bargain, however the Reavers' extra attack makes a huge difference in close combat, which at least in theory helps you get Merciless Fighters to work (though in practice it works about as often since they're likely to take casualties, though if you get a few with power weapons into assault you're normally fine). You should keep in mind too that if they're troops, you're saving 15 points on a squad you can send capping objectives rather than using tac squads (a squad of 5 with jump packs costs the same as a tac squad in a rhino, but has the same amount of attacks and better mobility) and Reavers are generally better suited to handling any threats that crop up along the way (since you can kit them out to handle any threat). They're certainly not going to be beating Palatine Blades, but they're not a bad unit for their points cost (which is why I mentioned they're just okay). -- Triacom (talk) 10:52, 6 March 2016 (UTC)
What stats? I guess I obviated him being used as an supplementary scoring standard bearer because almost nobody has added anything to his entry since I wrote it ages ago, and it's not like he can get stuff done on his own. Tarpits can be a way of setting up 'Cut them Down', not to mention Ld and related rules are a little bit more significant on 30k (in that example Levy squads were meant to be Stubborn Ld10, not Fearless since they don't have LA rules). Their morale rules aren't objectively better than the other legions', they simply can share them with lots of people. I'd say most Command Traits do fine in 30k (Master of Signals + Target priority equals to BS10 in most cases; or Coordinated Assault helping Power Axe Veletaris 12" around), and SoHs can share them very well with their allies. Example, World Burner granting shred to a few Solar Auxilia tank squads to supplement their RoW's reduced HS choices. As for Death Dealers (it's not in Retribution but in ICL2), it can help terminators in melee by virtue of upgrading their combiweapons (the only other dude I can remember offers a similar boost is Alpharius) so they face less attacks in return and allows vanilla combiweapon & powerfist SoH termies to deal with many legion specific terminators, who are often overcosted, like Butchers and Firedrakes (can even deal with unassisted Deathshroud too but any deviation can tip the balance in the Deathshroud's favor). I see the SoHs as a legion that can bring reserves a little faster without comitting dedicated stuff like Proteus LRs to it, a legion that can also get enemies to retreat easier while on the offensive on similar match ups, especially on close quarters (like ZM) and can lead others (especially Imperial Armies), but also a legion that is subpar as an ally itself. And Horus pretty much upgrades all SoHs to Ld10, as well as behaving as a powerhouse Master of Ordnance and having his no-scatter Deepstrike and Outflank. About Reavers, I'd rather have Veterans, who have bolters and an extra rule for cheaper, but it's good that they use the Fast slot instead of the Elites one. And I don't think Sons of Horus and especially Death Guard are good allies, if you're going to use any of those legions then use them as the core detachment instead of allies (almost half 30k considers the DG as Distrusted or worse, so their multiple scoring termies could be underused, and Deathshroud are too choppy to not be used as a spearhead). -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 04:59, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

The stats on the Command Squad (I'll admit I missed that they don't have WS 5), because I mentioned that if for some reason I'm taking Maloghurst I wouldn't take a Command Sqaud since he already does their job and the Reavers have the same stats. My point though is there's still very little reason as to why you'd want the SoH sharing their benefits with their allies, why not just play as those allies you're adding in? If you want a close range/melee army then the World Eaters can do that better than the Sons (though at least with Death Dealers they've got decent help with that). They just don't offer enough bonuses to their allies to make them worth it in my opinion. Giving Stubborn or +1 Combat Res or something similar would have been a big help yet they keep getting these mediocre characters. I figured that Death Dealers was in the most recent books (hopefully they'll get something/someone to boost allies in the future), though in a straight up fight my money's on the Deathshroud, not only do they have AP2 weapons without Unwieldy but they cost less and can get more attacks (not to mention rad grenades, though as far as ranged weapons go the Justaerin are better). Yeah I'll agree that Red Butchers are a bit overpriced (though not by much if you give them a second axe and Rage) and same with the Firedrakes, I think the only reason they cost that much is because they can get a 3++ save for only 5 more points. Yeah they can bring Reserves in a little better (which is why I didn't list needing to wait for Abaddon as a negative) though that's still not a good idea to me and we did go over this earlier. Basically I don't like deepstrike because Interceptor can shoot you, and if you hide behind buildings you usually can't do shit on the turn you arrive (and I don't think I have to go over Abaddon's price again). You could potentially get enemies to retreat faster so long as you win the assault, and I already went over why they're not as good as the other Legions in that regard. I suppose with Death Dealers they'll just overall be better with ZM boards, though I've yet to play any on those types so I can't say for sure whether they're preferable to flamers. Horus' +1 Ld helps, and so does his deep-strike (though the problems I have with DS are the same there). I'm not going to deny that Horus is a really powerful force on the field, it's just that, like pretty much everything in the Legion, he's really expensive (I've heard that he really helps his Legions detriments, but in practice I haven't seen it). Veterans fill a different role though (they can't get Jump Packs for example) and I think it's overall better to have Reavers as troops rather than Veterans for the advantages I mentioned earlier. Basically I've been saying "Sure the Sons can be the leaders, but why would you want them to be? They just don't offer enough to make it worth it." -- Triacom (talk) 06:13, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

It's not about which legion is the best at X, but about what can legion X do. Example: A SoH player could fix the Reaving's Heavy support limitation (a pretty common limitation) and try to patch it with allied tanks (Auxilia/Militia) while they also get to bring tarpits. "Then why play marines in the first place? Better play Militia or use Armoured Breakthrough". Dunno, Vanquisher Russes and Reaver troops don't sound too bad to me (ok it does, I just don't dig Reavers), and I could imagine them doing that so they maaay fullfill their RoW's very specific conditions, otherwise the only "benefits" they would be gaining are Troop Reavers and deepstriking Justaerin. But at least they can patch their RoW, which is something the WB can't do even tho they are Sworn Brothers to Militia too. Does that makes SoH better than the WB? Good morale and melee buffs say no, but it is certainly a thing that exists. About Justaerin, now they really are something, joining the ranks of 2W legion specifics but without the restrictions they have, like reduced dakka (Butchers) or lack of chain/powerfists (Butchers, Deathshroud). Coupled with their BS5 combimeltas, a few quick numbers reveal they defeat equal points of enemy 2W termies, not to mention their vanilla termies benefit too. Yes, I took into account their I3 AP2 weapons, they still lost half the time depending on how many the combimeltas killed. That close match up was against regular termies. Justaerin always won. Even when they are against rad grenades, and that's assuming those chem flamers never get hot and equal points cost, so it's 5 Justaerin winning against 8 Deathshroud (no Reaping bonus, as 6 usually survive the shooting), losing four wounds (2 termies) but causing five in return (2 shooting, 3 in melee, so they still win it)...five S8 wounds, meaning five dead Deathshroud. Even if you manage to give Reaping blow to three Deathshroud by virtue of clever positioning the Justaerin still win (and being chosen warriors they could challenge a Deathshroud out of position xD). And without rad grenades the Justaerin only lose 3 wounds (~1 man) and Deathshround lose 6 members. But maybe you'd like to reduce the number of Deathshroud by using some of their points cost in meltabombs, because Justaerin can also deal with vehicles by virtue of punching as hard as a lascannon multiple times instead of the meltabomb's one armourbane hit (after all, with rad grenades 8 Deathshroud cost 7 points more than 5 Justaerin with fists, combimeltas and multimelta). And should they lose combat, they're Stubborn anyway. As for the Butchers, I bypassed Rage by charging at them (and prevented about 10 attacks) and gave them not only dual axes, but also Hatred, that's how they lost against vanilla termies (not getting the charge takes away much of their potential, I should add it to their entry). I don't know how much of a big deal Death Dealers is, but numbers sure do look promising. Regarding Kheres interception, attaching a source of FnP can prevent someone dying (1.5W inflicted). And about multiple Fearless bubbles, I focused mainly in the fact they could bring three Fearless bubbles on a 2k game (before the Invictarii arrived), how exactly it could help I didn't quite knew...but back then no one objected, so I thought "huh, maybe it wasn't too bad". -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 02:18, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
Yeah it's about what each Legion does, and the Sons don't really specialize in anything that well, and as such don't really excel at anything, which is why "Well, they exist..." sums up my general opinion on them. Now about the matchups, Justaerin usually beat regular termies? How exactly? If we put an equal amount of points against each other and give them all power fists (the only melee weapons each side has that are AP2) then the Legion Termies win, so long as we pit 6 cataphractii termies vs 5 Justaerin (all armed with power fists) the regular termies will outlast the Justaerin while being significantly cheaper, which is one of the reasons you never want a Legion Termy charging a regular termy squad unless they have AP2 without Unwieldy (the gist is they'll all die to a cheaper unit). If we're including shooting, then it's kind of biased isn't it? If it's not the Sons turn, the Legion Termies can use Combi-meltas to kill a lot before charging in with power fists, and vice-versa with the Justaerin. Either way taking on regular termies is not the job of the Justaerin. Now about the Deathshroud, I have the same complaint about the shooting phase (chem-flamers though will usually cause less than 2 Wounds so it's not as bad, however if it's not the Sons turn they lose out on a huge advantage) and if we're looking at just the close combat phase, then it's a very iffy combat depending on how Reaping Blow works out (usually in the Justaerin's favour, though Grave Wardens crush them while remaining a lot cheaper). If you just want to kill Deathshroud you want to get meltas, which royally screws them over (power fists used to and on 2W termies they still can, though it's no longer one of their main weaknesses). I'm certainly not going to argue that they aren't versatile, and they're a good idea for a scoring unit that you need to remain on point, or as the tip of a spearhead (as they should be), especially with a Primus Medicae. As you mention they're definitely not locked into the roles other Legion specific termies are, however you shouldn't have them doing the job that regular termies already do, since they'll be doing it less efficiently and for more points (that also goes for pretty much every Legion Specific termy, I wouldn't intentionally send Deathshroud to take down Justaerin as an example, that's reserved for regular termies or Grave Wardens, much like how no sane person would ever send Justaerin's against Grave Wardens equal to them in points without shooting a lot of them dead first). Also you can't move the Deathshroud out of position via challenges, you can only issue ONE challenge per combat, and all Deathshrouds are characters so no matter who initiates the challenge, there's almost always somebody who can accept it already in base contact, and if not then you just fucked yourself over since by making the Deathshroud move, you just put a Deathshroud in a position to touch even more models, giving him even more attacks, and you don't want up to 4-5 S5 AP2 attacks coming at you. I have no idea why you'd want 3 Fearless bubbles on the table though, it's like having way too many Tyranid Synapse Creatures, you're putting in a lot of points that aren't really going to get used that efficiently (it's like giving everyone a powerfist even though you know some of them are going to die, it's a waste of points). If you want advice on how many Fearless bubbles you should have, Tyranid advice would be a good place to look, however just scale it down since LA have much better Leadership. Maybe one of my issues with Death Dealers is that you can already get a similar advantage at any range with a Master of Signal (granted it can affect less models depending on how the game is played) or two, though I'll also admit the numbers look promising. -- Triacom (talk) 09:21, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, that's kinda the whole deal with Death Dealers, you know? It makes termies shootier, and they fare better in melee only by virtue of killing more enemies in the shooting phase. Again, their bonus helps them on the offensive, not in melee overall. It's a greater boost than regular melee boosts but only if you get the charge so it's a give-and-take, like many chaos and especially FW upgrades. About the matchup, I didn't mention Justaering going against regular termies, but triumphing over legion-specific 2W easier than SoH vanilla termies; the Deathshroud got a special mention because not every legion has the luxury of having a 2W squad with non-unwieldy AP2, not even Invictarii have that, especially costing just a little more than regular termies and getting help when they are outnumbered. And Justaerin only AP2 weapon is a power fist? They have Furious Charge, meaning they can wound on a 2+ without needing to buy stuff (but power fists are hugely cost effective against 2W units). About the match up against Wardens, that's a trick question: Rule #1 of Fight Club is you don't charge at Wardens. They're super cheap and basically have double overwatch on top of forcing disordered charges: Their role as HS Termies is entirely justified...and they're scoring on top of it! Indeed, it's not the Justaerin's job to go against regular enemies, but be the spearhead, as all 2W units are. At their crudest, they could be seen as Butchers that have less attacks but can defend better and have access to powerfists as opposed to "Devoured only". Fun fact: Sevatar also has Master of Ambush...but his version concedes Acute senses intead of Infiltrate. And guess who are NL's only Sworn Brothers? Death Guard xD! Something similar happens with other character's WTs, like Rask's, which is worse in 30k than in 40k. Srsly, wtf FW? -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 17:39, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
Yeah it's all right for the offensive, but honestly I don't really think it's one of those Legion defining traits that really make you want to play it or really separate it from the other Legions (nothing like no morale tests from shooting casualties, or immune to fear/pinning, or move through cover, or psuedo Storm Shields or giving everyone Fear). Yeah Terminators are generally better if they can shoot what they're going to charge, however I do think that unless you need a unit to stay on point, you're better off with regular termies since at least you have a better chance of getting Merciless Fighters (so long as they don't have power fists of course). For the matchup, I thought you did mention them when you said "That close match up was against regular termies. Justaerin always won." I think you get what I mean though, they've got a purpose, and you don't want them taking on models that are allowed to have power fists, which as far as I'm aware, is the best AP2 melee weapon that the Justaerin have (last time I checked Furious Charge doesn't give you AP2, and while you could give them Axes it would be a terrible idea since you'd no longer cause ID), unless they've got some other one in the new book I'm not aware of, also Furious Charge gives them +1 Strength, meaning they wound MEQs/TEQs (which is what we're talking about) on 3's. Personally I see Justaerin as premium termies, and because of that they have to work twice as hard. Sending them against a unit that'll hold them up for 2+ turns or a unit that can kill them off isn't a good idea since it's not very efficient (and with Furious Charge and their various loadouts they shouldn't have a problem breaking opponents on the charge). Yeah Sevatar also has that trait, though as you mention FW fucked it up with their wording, though I actually forgot that the allies matrix wasn't symmetrical, so there's more combinations I can think of to put under Morturg's entry (team him up with Sevatar as a joke to get the unlikely Psyker duo). I don't think Rask's trait is that bad, though I absolutely agree it's hands down worse than the 40k version (and to be honest I'd never make him my Warlord). -- Triacom (talk) 20:17, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
Never said Furious Charge confers AP2, I was saying Furious Charge added to the power axe +1S bonus, thus becoming S6 AP2, and last time I checked S6 needs a 2+ to wound T4 so, against single wound enemies they do behave like Power Fists. I repeat, against single wound enemies. "Power fists (the only melee weapons each side has that are AP2" sounded like you forgot about power axes, but I guess it was merely a confusion on emphazis in the sentences. And yes, I prefer termies to have power fists as I see them as very versatile weapons, but perhaps "punching as hard as a lascannon multiple times" and "power fists are hugely cost effective against 2W units" was too ambigous wording. About the WT diferring from 40k, I'm not sure which one to use. On one hand, it is 30k instead of 40k. On the other hand, it was originally released on 6E and assumed characters still had PS and stuff, not to mention FW's continous fuck ups, so I'm not sure if RAI could ever apply. About the asymmetrical Allies table, I think FW screwed up yet again, but managed to fix the fuck up and it it became an interesting game mechanic. Maybe I'll question the regular SoH strategies on the /hhg/ (instead of focusing on terminators & ZM). -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 21:31, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
Oh I see now, yeah that was my bad on that however you have to admit that Powerfists are still overall better AP2 weapons for them as they don't rely on getting Furious Charge for the 2+ to wound roll like the axes do, meaning they are outright better in the second and third rounds of combat. I remember FW's customer service saying that the allies table was always intentional, since it shows that sometimes some Legions think better of others, yet the feeling's not always mutual, and I'm not really sure why the Night Lords like the Death Guard so much, maybe it's because they're also a "do what it takes" Legion that doesn't afraid of anything? For the traits, I think the general rule is that you always use the book, regardless of how old it is (unless a FAQ says otherwise) so if a Warlord Trait says specifically what it does, you have to use it like that regardless of whether it has the same name as another WT, even though that sucks. -- Triacom (talk) 21:46, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
True, it's good to not need to rely so heavily on the charge. I put it on the thread, my bet is that Night Lords think the DG as their bros because using weaponry that melts people's faces is funny to them. The Death Guard couldn't care less about what the NL think, and that's why their ally level is asymmetrical. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 23:16, 10 March 2016 (UTC)
You called for help... But nobody came. Even on Bolter and Chainsword the Sons are debated as to how good they are. I do like to imagine one of those meme pictures though where the little kid wants to help out the adult who just doesn't give a shit, just replace the kid with Kurze and the adult with Mortarion to sum up that allied relationship. On a different/serious note, maybe the reason the Night Lords like them is because the Death Guard also made very good use of night raids as well as fighting in the Dark (inside hives) and inspiring terror, they were originally named the Dusk Raiders for a good reason after all. -- Triacom (talk) 08:09, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
Well yeah, that's what puzzles me. They say SoHs are good but never argue against it, and I thought "Death dealers is nice, but Merciless and Cut them Down almost never come int play". Is SoHs being good just some sort of joke without the punchline? And I thought Mortarion made the Dusk Raiders a thing of the past due to the reformes he imposed (even though about 1/4 of the legion was still terran). He pretty much showed up and said "Mortarion speaks to you, his chosen ones. *Pours bolters, chem weapons and meltas* The gun is good. The witch is evil. Go forth...and kill". And so they did, and it was good. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 15:07, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
If it's a joke then it's one I'm not in on, I've even seen some people argue that Horus' buffs make the Sons all right, but there were many more that argued against that while still saying they were fine (they didn't say how, and the one who was arguing for using Horus was arguing that they were just bad without him). Mortarion's biggest contribution to his Legion aside from the name change was tell them to rely on their endurance and never stop coming. He didn't have a lot of personal interaction with a lot of his Legion, and aside from the endurance bit he never insisted they change their tactics besides making them use different weapons (as far as I'm aware of anyway, he did more in previous editions, but in the new lore he had a really hands off approach aside from telling them where to attack) not to mention he and his legion did use fear quite a bit (especially with their chem weapons) so I can see why NL might like them for that reason, though I wouldn't have thought that would equal "Sworn Brothers" status unless they really did support each other a lot either before or after their Primarchs were found. -- Triacom (talk) 19:44, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
Asymetrical Ally charts may be like sempai not noticing them or something like that. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 20:17, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

Sources for Legion Specific Rites of War[edit]

O.k., so I have a potentially foolish question: Is there any way we can get sources posted in parentheses or something so that we can find the books containing a legion's unique Rites of War? The Night Lords, for example, has an entry for the "Horror Cult" RoW; I have no idea which book the rules for said RoW would be printed in if I wanted to go find more details or clarification. I understand if this is a large request for the community, what with having eighteen Astartes Legions to tend to, but I think this would be a smart move for those who are just starting out.

Or, would such a thing violate certain legal concerns and draw the ire of Games Workshop/Forge World? Note that I am not saying we provide the rules themselves, word for word, on the page. I am asking if we can provide the sources as a point of reference if players have more questions or want to know where those rules can be found? --70.190.166.102 03:58, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

I don't think that's a huge ask, considering we are getting multiple sources for rules feeding into one list. It might take some time though. By the way, the "new" rules are in Retribution. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 05:30, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
Well...it is sort of a clusterfuck. As of this comment there are 6 HH books, plus the compilations Legiones Astartes Crusade Army List (LACAL) which comprises most of the units selection (supplemented by books 4,5 and the January FAQ) and the Campaign Legiones Istvaan, which comprises several of the legion-specifics published on the first 3 books (HH1: SoHs, WEs, EC and DG; HH2: Expands the four previously mentioned legions and adds the IHs, NLs, Salamanders and WBs; and HH3: IFs, RG, IWs and AL). As for providind the source, I'd agree with writing the most recent reference, but things become outdated very fast because FW technically hasn't made their mind yet (it's way better than before, tho) so each new book contradicts something from the previous one. TL;DR: Sources are LACAL, Campaign Legions supplemented by Jan 2016's FAQ and HH:5 & HH:6, all of that at once. It's that easy. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 05:39, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
the istvaan campaign legions list is being updated too, that was shown at the weekender, I'll try and learn how to put things in superscript (like this) that way our referencing stays relatively unobtrusive. Then we can source a rule to its most up to date location.--Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 06:56, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
We might need to borrow from Forge World's abbreviation system, as shown in some of their FAQ's. Examples have "CAL" for the Crusade Army List, "ICL" for the now out of print "Isstvan Campaign Legions", and "HH1/2/3/..." for Betrayal/Massacre/Extermination/and so on.... And for the record, I would like to add that this community rocks; /tg/ gets shit done! --70.190.166.102 17:07, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
I had a shot at the Emperors Children section, since that one easily draws from three to four different books. If folk feed back what they think we could maybe try and do some others. Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 18:25, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
Looks nice. You got shit done, DarkAngel. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 18:59, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Special characters and gentleman's agreements[edit]

How do you feel about considering Durak Rask as both a Master of the Legion and a Siege Breaker (given how he's called a 'Master of Ordnance' and 'Siegemaster' on the fluff, and he has both the Siege Breaker's-exclusive Art of Destruction rule, and a Praetor/Delegatus' MoTL rule on the crunch)? Similarly, what's your opinion on Morturg being mentioned as a "Blackshield, formerly of the DG". As in, should this mean people could take him in a Blackshield army? Or Surlak counting as a Primus Medicae ('Master Apothecary', has the 'Sacred Trust' rule). I see it as a similar case to Erebus and Kor Phareon. They were both FAQ'd, but FW isn't responding right now, it seems. So what do you guys think? -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 22:48, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Honestly I'm all for them. Despite what's going on in the collapsed section now I am going to talk over using Infiltrate and allies with anybody I play against since most people in my group love finding loopholes in rules, and most of them are good sports about it (so long as you're not a dickhead to them, though 1 or 2 are still just dicks about everything). To give another example, Kyr Vhalen is a Warsmith with a Servo-arm, yet the only way to get a Servo-arm for a Warsmith is to buy them Battlesmith, which he doesn't appear to have. If somebody wanted to give him Battlesmith for no extra points then I wouldn't have a problem with it. On another note, I honestly wouldn't have a problem with people using any character they wanted as a Blackshield, and I hope that option becomes available later, since Forgeworld is pretty big on your dudes, to the point that they said it's perfectly fine if you run your own campaign and do things that didn't happen, such as having Fulgrim remain loyal (they say this at the very start of the campaign legions book). I also do this in my Warhammer Fantasy games (I'm not switching to AoS) where I was using the Ravening Hordes list for my Chaos Dwarfs for a long time, and then when the Tamurkhan book came out, my friends and I talked over what units I would/could include from both lists. -- Triacom (talk) 21:53, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
I was mainly asking in order to know if most people would be ok with taking Durak Rask as the mandatory Siege Breaker in the Creeping Death RoW. Back then FW advised me to use the golden rule, but I never really asked. And now that you mention it, Kyr not having Battlesmith looks like a typo, like not having Stubborn (he's a Warsmith). -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 02:26, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

Swift Action - But nobody came[edit]

I don't quite understand the White Scars rule, especially the "in the Movement phase and/or Assault phase it gains the following" part. No intermediate commas, as if the bonuses were active only in the assault phase, your's and your enemy's (and in the movenent phases too, for some reason). Had they written "ends the Movement and/or the Assault phase at least 6" away from the point where it began the phase, it gains the following", without repeating "in the Movement phase and/or Assault phase" then there could not be any other alternate interpretation. But knowing FW, it could be a simple typo (it's understandable the guys who write "Satareal" could miss something so small yet so crucial as a comma). Does this means that, as long as they go fast they get better at range like the Fists (which also functions in overwatch), better at melee like WEs and get +1 to cover like NL (but better), all of it with no real drawbacks at all and access to AP2 at initiative at powersword cost? I just find it a little hard to believe, that's why I'm asking. As for vehicles benefitting from the rule, the wording implies they get it even tho they don't have the LA rule (but I don't know if Dreads never get it, or they get it if they move 6" and assault minimum 6" too, or only if they assault the full 12" disregarding how much did they move on the Movement phase). -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 02:18, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

That's how I'm reading it, they only get those bonuses in the movement/assault phases, which is dumb because that means that it actually doesn't affect the movement phase. I'm pretty sure that RAI the "Movement phase and/or Assault Phase" wasn't meant to be repeated, meaning that so long as they move at least 6" they gain all of those advantages you listed without any drawbacks (keep in mind they also auto-pass Dangerous Terrain tests). The wording does apply that vehicles get that advantage, however if you look above the bullet points you see the words "All models and units with this [Legiones Astartes (White Scars)] special rule are subject to the following provisions:" so it actually doesn't affect things like Rhinos or Dreadnoughts. -- Triacom (talk) 07:59, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
I was about to quote the <<or 12" if it's a vehicle>> section even tho there are no vehicles with LA rules, and suspiciously capping at Jink +1 cover...buuut then there's rerolling to wound in the movement phase, so I'm truly at a loss here (unless it was Mine plough/Thunderblitz, but that's kind of a stretch). I don't know if that other guy reads this, but Chainglaives and Charnabal sabres can't even compare with AP2 weapons. A little more and he would've listed Falax blades too. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 08:31, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
The only way re-rolling to wound in the movement phase would make any sense is if they get chariots that have the Necron rule that allowed them to attack in the movement phase for some reason. Yeah I'm not sure why they said they lose out to chainglaives, given how there's no reason you'd ever want any power weapon over a power glaive, and how chainglaives and power glaives cost exactly the same yet power glaives are far superior. It really reads like they were supposed to either have the power fists limitation that Phoenix Spears or Power Scythes have, or that the second profile was only supposed to kick in during a round of close combat in which they didn't charge, like how it does for the Red Scorpions and their Power Glaives. The only reason I can think of that you might want a different weapon is if you go with a power fist, paragon blade, or a thunder hammer to instant death your enemies. -- Triacom (talk) 09:03, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

Legion rules pictures[edit]

So, the pictures of the shoulder pads in every legion generally are formatted like shit and seem a bit out of place. Is there a reason, or is someone just bored? I mean it could be 'nice' if whoever was posting them could get more of the battle cries right. It looking bad aside, this also seems like something that would be better done on the legion's pages themselves rather than the tactica page. -Brennonjw (talk) 20:26, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Hehe, whoops. I reduced the shoulderpads to 150px so they would fit most legion descriptions, but I never considered someone would write the legion's battle-cry underneath them (that's another anon). Maybe I could resize the again? As of now, 4 out of the 14 exceed the recommended dimensions. As of why placing the shoulderpads to begin with, that's actually something I was thinking about doing since the first DA shoulderpad was posted. Aaaand I kinda hoped someone could find the EC's and WE's ones. And I'm hoping the SW's and TS's ones are in book 7. But book 6 has icons we could use fore the Agents of the Emperor, Blackshields and shattered legions...assuming this sub-faction icon thingie gets approved. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 19:41, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
Well, the idea of the shoulder pads seems pretty unneeded on a tactics page, though it wasn't to intrusive to the reading or formatting, so I don't really mind them all to much anymore, though whoever is doing the quotes needs to learn how to format and check before updating, 'cause it looks terrible. -Brennonjw (talk) 20:26, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
IKR, they were deleted and that guy just re-added them, and that seems to be the main issue now. Some of the warcries don't quite fit ("Repent for tomorrow you die"? Fallen aren't a thing just yet), so I'll go erase them again, and hope they stay down for good. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 00:12, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Hey, I didn't know you could place the pic without the borderline, thank you. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 16:48, 24 April 2016 (UTC) Id like to say im in support of the pictures. Looks rather nice in my opinion and helps you find what legion you are looking for. --73.255.49.47 02:53, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

Giving characters legion wargear.[edit]

So it's been stated that you cannot give named characters legion wargear, but I'm unable to find the rule that says so. Could anybody point out to me where in the rulebook it says this? Otherwise I'll just change that back. -- Triacom (talk) 08:18, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Typhon is stated to have a chem hand flamer, while Crysos' is a regular combi-flamer. I could accept him having a combi-chem but only because I think it's a typo, not because I think you can modify named characters' loadout, that's pretty much set in stone, unless there's a provision for them to modify it, like what happens with Kharn, Eidolon, Draykavac, Decima, Scoria and Satarael. Otherwise Nomus Rhy'tan could master-craft his non unwieldy thunder hammer, Kharn could buy a caedere weapon, Autek Mor could become a T5 2+/3++ monster and Abaddon & Loken would be able to use banestrike on their bolters. As in, Loken using marine-betrayer ammo gifted to him by the Alpha legion. I'm aware this is invoking the legion's "all flamers may be chem" rule instead of spending points to get him extra equipment, but buying chem ammo still counts as buying stuff even if it's free. This argument is like the "how many marines does an attack bike carries?" issue. It never says "only two", but are we really going to Ork this out? -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 14:51, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
Oh I don't disagree that it should be common sense, but I only realized recently that there doesn't seem to be anything that says you can't give unique characters other wargear, unless I'm missing it somewhere, I'm not asking for an argument, I'm asking because I want to know if it says somewhere that you can't give those characters extra wargear, which is a pretty glaring mistake if it really doesn't say that anywhere. -- Triacom (talk) 22:06, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
Haven't found an actual restriction, neither on the HH book nor on the 7E rulebook itself. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 02:38, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
Same here, that's why I'm asking. I figure I'll give it a day or two more before I mention it on the main page. -- Triacom (talk) 10:15, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Imperial Fists Disiplined Fire question.[edit]

This may sound like a dumb question (moreso since I don't have the crusade list myself) but does the boosted BS with bolters that the Fists have apply to overwatch? Or does it only affect the shooting phase?

Short answer NO it does not.
From the BRB - "If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots, unless it has a Ballistic Skill of 0 (in which case it may not shoot). The Ballistic Skill of a model firing a Snap Shot can only be modified by special rules that specifically state that they affect Snap Shots,"
From the special rule - "Units with this special rule may add +I to their BS when using boltguns, bolt pistols, heavy bolters and quad heavy bolters, and when firing the bolter component of a combi-weapon." -- SpikeySam (talk) 10:43, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
Alright thank you. From the wording it looked like it did, meaning that charging a 20 man IF blob is next to suicide when you add all their other special rules. Glad to see it isn't.

Sons of Horus, one of the best? Really?[edit]

So I wanted to hold off on making this until after I've played a few games against them with the updated rules, but I fail to see why we're listing the Sons as one of the best Legions: "If if the player knows the role that each unit will play and builds them around it, then the Sons of Horus are undoubtedly one of the strongest legions." I went over this with Zerghalo in an earlier section (The Effectiveness of Ravenwing Protocol) but everything the Sons have is really overpriced for what you're getting, so I'll just go over why (this section is collapsible because it goes on and on):

  • Starting off we have Banestrike Rounds for +5 points, they only take effect on a 6, and even then are only AP3. The only ones who can get them are Independent Characters, who you're better putting an entirely different weapon on to outright ignore the enemies armour saves (give them volkite so you wound easier or plasma so you can both wound easier and ignore all armour, you'll cause way more wounds) and Legion Seeker Squads who exchange their Scorpius Rounds for them. I'm not sure who wrote the second part as it's clearly meant as a bad joke, for no points, you can lose 6" in range, lose shred, lose RENDING and gain shitty rending in return. The only upside is that they're Rapid Fire instead of Heavy 1, so you might think you want to take them to get more shots at higher BS thanks to Death Dealers right? Well let's say you do, even when you cause an AP3 Wound, if you're playing against somebody who's played against them before, that'll be the Wound they don't LoS! Off of either their Champion or Independent Character and it bounces right off their 2+ armour. Finally, using Rapid Fire like this hurts you if you want to use Merciless Fighters, since you can't charge after you've shot with these weapons (with regular squads) and Seeker Squads suck with assault anyway, despite the weapon needing to be really close to be used to its fullest potential, ensuring that after your 5-10 man seeker squad shoots they're going to get rushed by whatever they just shot, or if they somehow caused enough wounds whatever got shot is going to run away somewhere else out of Rapid Fire range (and at that point you're going to miss Scorpius).
  • Next is Merciless Fighters. While it certainly looks powerful it actually doesn't really help all that much. If you're able to use it then that means you've already won the assault you're in and are now just going for bonus kills, not to mention since it takes place in I1 it hurts if you want to go for any sort of powerful melee weaponry like a Thunder Hammer, Power Fist, or even a Power Axe, unfortunately you're going to be up against a lot of 2+ armour, so you kind of have to take the Unwieldy AP2 weaponry and outright lose the melee bonus for your regular dudes (ie Sergeants and Centurions) because only your Praetor can get a Paragon Blade. Unfortunately too this bonus doesn't get used a lot now that Death Dealers is here, since Death Dealers is far better and most of the army is going to have Rapid Fire weaponry (maybe with Banestrike rounds if you bought them for your IC in case you wanted a 'fluffy' list), which prevents them from assaulting and getting to use Merciless Fighters (I don't think their rules were thought through very well). The only advantage I've seen it have is when you're trying to mulch through Fearless blobs, ie Tacticals in front of a banner during a Zone Mortalis game and all other times you're better going with a squad that has some AP2 weaponry which'll do the job better, even though that means not using this Legion trait at all with those models. Then there's also the issue of transport, to make sure you get the bonus you're probably going to want to take more models, but that means your Tactical Squads will have to footslog it, or you'll need to pay for the already overpriced Assault Squad in which case you're not making the best use out of your better ability, Death Dealers.
  • Next is Death Dealers, and this is a genuinely good one. I said before that I didn't think this would be one of those Legion defining ones and having played against it, it's really not, though by no means is it bad. You can get some sweet bonuses provided you're able to get support squads close enough but unfortunately it hurts your other big ability as I've mentioned in the last point. It also doesn't help that a lot of your army is better for assault, and both your RoW's and unique units certainly seem to agree, however using this with their Bolters prevents Reavers from charging (so once again the Banestrike Rounds are wasted here) which wastes their extra attacks, though it does help with the Justaerin, provided they get close enough which can be a problem. You can give them a Spartan, in which case you've got one unit that can make good use of both Merciless Fighters and Death Dealers (assuming you didn't swap out all of their power weapons) but that's just one unit, the rest of your army is going to feel like an Imperial Fist knockoff, for the most part just gaining bonuses to their Bolters under certain conditions.
  • Next is your RoW, The Black Reaving is one that sounds good on paper, but just isn't on the tabletop. The main reason for this is twofold, you're going to want to take advantage of Cut Them Down, and The Eye of the Warmaster when they're both not worth it. Cut Them Down sucks because that means you need to get into an assault, then not win it. For an army that's much better at close range and with several units geared for assault, having a tactic relying around not winning is a bad idea, especially if you want to be the one to initiate the assault. Let's say you charge somebody, you get your bonus attacks from charging and even get Merciless Fighters, winning the combat, but for whatever reason the other unit held fast. Now one of two things is going to happen, you're either going to finish them off in the opponents turn anyway (or at the very latest your turn), or in your opponents turn your unit is going to be rushed by whatever they have at hand and now you're going to lose the combat, meaning that in the best case scenario you're going to have to wait two combats before this takes effect. If your opponent initiates the combat, then you're not likely to gain Merciless Fighters unless your opponent is really stupid and charged the wrong unit, or you're really lucky. If you win the combat or manage to hold, then you can use it, though whatever got charged is probably going to be made fairly obsolete anyway. Let's also not forget you need another unit on standby to take advantage of this, which is a bad idea since to make their points back all of your units should be doing something, not babysitting each other. There are a few ways to make this work, like using Maloghurst to ensure that units charged in the opponents turn don't flee, but even then you still need another unit only on babysitting duty and whatever unit just got charged likely should never have been charged in the first place.
Then there's the Eye of the Warmaster, you might think of how sweet it is that you can Deep Strike in an environment where it's relatively rare, but you know what isn't very rare? Interceptor. You can strike in, only to get the unit shot to pieces by a Deredeo or Mortis Contemptor. If you manage to live you can use their weapons, presumably with Death Dealers to cause some damage, and then you could very well just get charged by whatever unit happens to be nearby that can handle them (if you're really unlucky it could even be Cataphractii's with a 3++ save thanks to being near that Deredeo that just used Interceptor to shoot you) or you'll get shot to shit by something like a support squad, or many other units all gunning them down at the same time. You could try to use this with multiple Justaerin since you don't need a transport now, but now the issue turns into when they'll actually show up. You can try to mitigate this a bit by buying units to modify Reserve Rolls, but even then you've now committed 700+ points on a late game strategy (terminators, likely the Land Raider Proteus and the Praetor/other character for the Rite as well), reducing the initial power of your army meaning you've freed up more Medusa's to aim their Large Blast S10 AP2 weapons at the rest of your troops/transports, and once the Terminators have arrived those same tanks will likely already have dealt a crippling blow to your regular army and have no qualms about turning on the new arrivals, especially if you're playing an objective based game meaning that it's only decent to use if you list tailor and know what your opponent will/won't be using against you. It certainly also has benefits in Zone Mortalis, though it's even more risky there because a single mishap on the least expensive Justaerin you can get will cost you 255 points.
There's also the ability to make Reavers into Troops which really isn't worth it since you can already do that with Maloghurst and then get a better RoW alongside that.
  • The Long March isn't that bad, there's still the problem of it trying to favour both shooting and assault and not doing both in a great way, but at least you get terminators as troops so you'll presumably be able to use both Death Dealers and Merciless fighters more, even if the rest of your army isn't really going to get the advantage of Relentless March in any big way thanks to taking advantage of Death Dealers, which usually removes their ability to charge (and unless they're a terminator you'd likely not want a squad capable of carrying that many special weapons to charge anyway).
  • Next up are the characters, while both Maloghurst and Loken are both decent for what they offer (certainly not great) Abaddon and Horus are both hideously overpriced, especially if you want to Deep Strike them as that means you're now waiting for 500+ to 750+ minimum to show up. Yes, knowing exactly when Horus will show up is great, same with not scattering, however he doesn't offer enough buffs to warrant the 500 point price tag, Dorn is a better buffer, Lorgar is a better buffer, Corax, and even Vulkan are all better at buffing their armies and in fact the only Primarch that I think is worse is Angron, who just makes everyone within 12" Fearless. Yes Seize the Initiative is good, but it only really excels if you're using long-ranged lists which lose all of your major advantages, gaining +1 Ld is all right, and Outflank isn't that great when you could just get a unit to Deep Strike, which you've already paid Horus to be able to do (not to mention there are already perfectly good units that have this ability without needing Horus to give it to him that could likely get the job done better). Yes Horus can give you pseudo-Pride of the Legion, but then why not just get that? If you plan on building your army around veterans and terminators the 500 points you save by not taking Horus can be put to better use elsewhere.

So all in all, I certainly don't think they're one of the best Legions by a long shot, not even one of the good Legions, and any time I try asking somebody why they're good, or any time I bring up these downsides I get nothing (I've also seen other people try this and they also get nothing), and yet I still see people insist that they're good without specifically saying why. Even on the page it says "If if the player knows the role that each unit will play and builds them around it, then the Sons of Horus are undoubtedly one of the strongest legions." However that applies to nearly EVERY Legion, and in fact the first and most important part of playing a Legion is knowing which role each unit will play and building around that which when done properly, can make any Legion "one of the strongest legions", it's just easier/more obvious for some than it is for others (Iron Hands and Imperial Fists for example), you can't just throw shit together and hope it'll work for anyone and expect to come out on top. So many of the other Legions completely outclass the Sons in their respective rolls, especially when you come across a unit that counters your stuff, for example a Tactical Squad that Lorgar just made invisible who charge Horus and then hold him up the entire game. -- Triacom (talk) 20:24, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

I'm interested in talking about this because I think you have some fine points, but I think the overall strengths of SoH greatly outweigh the weaknesses. I'm going to come at this discussion in a couple steps. First, I'm going to talk about the things that are obviously bad/problematic for them, then I'm going to talk a bit about the things I've found are very good when I've played. I'll make this collapsible like yours since I plan on writing quite a bit.
  • Let's start with the bad. Abaddon and Tybalt Marr are both pretty bad. Insanely overpriced without good wargear to show for it, I've never taken these guys. Banestrike rounds are purely "ok". I'm a big fan of them on Reavers, though, since they have Assassin's Eye you can easily pick out vexilla carriers/special weapons dudes who can't take LoS against them. On ICs/Seekers though, they don't make any sense. A combi-weapon would be way better for an IC to take, and Seekers don't gain much being BS6 vs. BS5 with them, considering they give up Shred and Rending to get it.
  • The Black Reaving is really bad, I won't disagree with you on that. Too many limitations to get some very mild benefits. I've run it a couple times before The Long March came out when I just coincidentally had the stuff to run it and wasn't ever impressed.
  • I think you're overstating how bad Merciless Fighters is. I've had multiple combats where the extra wounds caused me to go from either evenly matched or within a wound to me winning by 3 or 4. Forcing morale checks against Ld5 is a lot better than Ld8. I pretty consistently benefit from this on Jump Pack Reavers, where it's easy to outnumber your opponents since everything is Bulky.
  • It's entirely possible, and good, to build an army around Death Dealer. Justaerin obviously benefit from this tremendously, especially if they're with Horus, but it also makes Sons of Horus Tactical Support squads the best in the game. It's easy to benefit from this on Reavers as well since you can shoot with your Banestrike bolters, get Hammer of Wrath on the charge, and then get Merciless Fighters attacks to ensure you win by a colossal amount.
  • I haven't used Loken but I'd argue against Maloghurst not being great. He's a very cheap way to get Fearless and Reavers as troops, both of which are very good for SoH. Loken is probably pretty overpriced but an I6 Paragon Blade can't be that bad. Only having 3+ armor barely matters anyway since he's going to fight characters with AP2 weapons most of the time anyway.
  • The Long March is pretty great, and is a lot like the general Sons of Horus buffs in that it affects all stages of the game. You get bonuses no matter what.
  • I'd strongly argue against Horus being the second-worst Primarch, especially compared against the turds that are Dorn and Corax. Dorn basically provides one good buff, +D3 to assault results, and is a thoroughly mediocre fighter both at range and in melee. Corax also only gives his legion Acute Senses, which is pretty bad considering he doesn't provide Outflank or Scout to anything. He's also a very mediocre fighter. Lorgar essentially provides Crusader to a unit, because his leadership buff hardly matters due to the Word Bearers' True Believers special rule. Horus, meanwhile, provides Outflank to anything you reserve, provides a hefty Seize the Initiative bonus, can buff a unit's shooting, and (as you noted) lets you decide when and where he enters play. He's also the best close combat fighter in the game, and has the best ranged shooting of any of the Primarchs (S10 5" blast with twin-linked and BS5 will destroy a lot of stuff). He's also one of the few Primarchs who can reliably destroy hordes being thrown at him, unlike, say, Guilliman, Lorgar, or Perturabo. He's just good at everything.
  • The Sons of Horus, overall, are the only legion to have special rules that affect nearly every phase of the game. Edge of the Spear improves reserves quite a bit, Death Dealer improves shooting, Merciless Fighters improves close combat. I can't think of another legion who has such wide-ranging buffs. From the games I've played I'd easily say Sons of Horus are one of the best legions.
  • To close, I'd like to point out that Lorgar can't make a unit invisible, because he doesn't have access to Telepathy.

-- Panascope(talk) 16:14, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Well I'm glad somebody is finally making a defence for them, I guess we should keep this collapsible idea going, though I'll open by saying that I still haven't been convinced they're one of the best (though I'm open to the idea, which is the entire reason I made this topic).

  • So first off I didn't mention Banestrike on the Reavers because it's a part of their default wargear, and I genuinely like Reavers, I even defended them as being a good unit from Zerghalo2 in an earlier topic. My main beef with it was that, for the units who have the option of buying it, it costs way too much for far too little and there's no reason to take it when spending just a bit more gets you a much higher return (even for Seekers, free is too much for Banestrike since you do not want them close enough to use rapid fire, and Scorpius outperforms it if you're not rapid-firing).
  • Next is the characters, Loken is quite decent for his points and Warlord Trait (not great, only having power armour really hurts if you're up against a squad with power weapons or lightning claws), however I will disagree on Maloghurst being great because of his Warlord Trait, his statline, his gear, and the fact that he costs as much as a Command Squad of 4 which are both much harder to kill and perform far better both at long range and in close combat. He just costs too much, however I don't think he's bad, just that he's decent for his ability to make Veterans and Reavers Troops, otherwise I'd recommend skipping him entirely.
  • I might be overstating how bad Merciless Fighters is, but making sure you get it really is a serious problem from the games I've played, since normally you'll want insurance which means upgrading past the 10 man squads you're normally going to have, but if you have more than 10 you lose your transports (another reason I think Reavers are genuinely good) which can then end up with your squad getting shot off the table anyway. I've seen them lose combat to the other melee Legions many times because the other Legions don't have to worry about lasting until I1 AND outnumbering their enemy at the same time to get their melee bonus, even to non-melee Legions I've seen them lose, like when they're up against Death Guard or Iron Hands, they become T3 against the former (losing too many to outnumber when I1 rolls around) and the latters T5 (effectively anyway) stops enough Iron Hands from dying in the shooting phase to swing the fight decisively in the Sons' favour (especially when we factor in losses the Sons' take both in the Iron Hands' shooting phase and Overwatch).
  • I'll be honest and say that I actually haven't seen many Sons' Legion Support Squads, though now that you've said it, it certainly sounds like it could be good. I question the idea that they're the best, since I figure that Death Guard or Salamanders behind Prometheium Relay Pipes would be both better and longer ranged.
  • I'll agree that The Long March is way better than The Black Reaving, however I don't think it's great, and I actually think it pales in comparison to a few of the generic RoW, though that gets more into which playstyle you prefer (which is subjective). The main problem I have with it is there's no big thing about it that makes it awesome, since it tries doing everything decently but doesn't do anything really well (which seems to be the main theme with the SoH). Almost all the other RoW have a defining reason that you'll be using them, but The Long March only provides a few nice bonuses, in exchange for losing fortifications (there's some really good ones) and allies (of which the SoH have a lot). For comparison, let's say you take Maloghurst and take Angel's Wrath, now your Reavers can Hit and Run, making sure you get charge after charge without any worry of being tied down to a tarpit, and the more times you can charge with them, the faster you'll wipe out the enemy, especially when combined with Merciless Fighters.
  • Now as for Horus, I never said that he was the second-worst, I said that he was the second worst army-buffer. If we're looking at close combat then he's king, if we're looking at ranged combat he begins to pale in front of some of his brothers, his Precision Bombardment can only be used once per game and after that he's entirely reliant on The Talon (S5, AP3, Assault 3, Twin-linked). Vulkan outshoots him, Ferrus outshoots him, Perturabo outshoots him, Dorn can outshoot him (though that depends on who you're fighting, against MEQ's Horus is better), Mortarion outshoots him and Lorgar (using his powers) outshoots him. Then we get to army buffs, and here's where I'm surprised that you think Dorn sucks, first of all he makes everyone Ld 10, then makes it so that three areas let you re-roll cover saves of 1 and allow you to re-roll Pining checks for them (and remember, Imperial Fists's are Stubborn when they're in Fortifications, so now they might as well be Fearless). As a bonus you can take Phalanx Warders as Troops, who are really fucking annoying to charge (thanks to defensive grenades and their WS bonus) and who can also become T5 (at Ld10 while being Stubborn). Corax on the other hand provides Acute Senses but not Outflank because he doesn't need to, all Raven Guard Infantry already have Outflank, not to mention he also makes it so that they always count as rolling a 6 for their run rolls, which is HUGE. You do not need to take any sort of transport when your entire force is capable of moving a guaranteed 12" per turn. Corax is also far more than a mediocre fighter, on average he'll have 8 shredding AP2 attacks at WS7 and I7. This gets boosted to 9 Attacks at S7 if he charges, after 2 (on average) S5 AP3 attacks for 11 (on average) AP2-AP3 attacks on the charge (he can tear through MEQ's and TEQ's as if they're paper). There's also the part where he's a lot more survivable than Horus so long as he isn't the closest model to the shooters, and the times I've seen him under-perform are really rare (ironically his biggest weakness is a lucky Moritat), and let's not forget the fact that unlike Horus, Corax is really fast thanks to the Jump Pack that Horus doesn't have. Now for Lorgar, much like Dorn he basically makes his army Fearless, however you're ignoring his Living Icon rule, the one that gives Word Bearers an extra 1" to charge distances, immunity to Fear (which is a big one) and also gives +1 to Combat Resolution, which is another big one, not to mention these bonuses have no range limitation, which is far better than simply gaining Outflank, +1 to Ld and Sieze the Initiative on 4+. I'll agree that Horus is good at everything, however much like his sons he's great at nothing. Most of the time there's going to be a better way to do what you want him to do, you want to wreck a TEQ squad? Justaerin can do that for much less. You want to blow shit up? Get several Medusa's, they'll cost far less while causing far more damage, even a Master of Signal can blow up more squads before buffing another squad with the same Cognis Signum Horus has, and a Master of Signal costs far less. Even for his own specific buffs nobody else can do that's not worth the 500 point price tag and the games I've actually seen him make his points back I can count on one hand (oddly enough he usually kills a super-heavy in those games, though they're the exceptions rather than the rule).
    • To be fully honest this does sound a little too harsh on Horus when the truth is that I don't like most Primarchs. It's rather easy to prevent most of them from making their points back, especially if you blow up their transport (and when you remember how to properly get and use grav-weapons with Haywire it isn't very hard) and Horus isn't an exception. The only ones I really like a lot are Lorgar, Corax, and Mortarion (and Fulgrim but that depends on which Warlord Trait you give him) since Lorgar's abilities really are a game-changer and both Mortarion and Corax are extremely fast while being very hard to kill, and having the ability to kill extremely tough targets very quickly (though I have had Mortarion become tarpitted twice which sucked). As for the others, there's always ways to get around what they provide, or turn it into a negative (I've gone up against Imperial Fist players where I was winning the ranged war, but they didn't want to leave their Fortifications and come to me because that would mean losing their special bonuses, I've also gone up against Iron Hands where they didn't want Ferrus to engage the enemy because he was too busy trying to fix their tanks).
  • Now for being an army that has rules affecting every phase, I'll agree that they're the only army that has RULES, however they're certainly not the only ones who can gain benefits in all three phases. I'll use Death Guard since they're my main army, and I usually choose The Reaping. So I get Move Through Cover to help with the Movement phase, Heavy Weapons as Troops to help in the Shooting phase, and Rad grenades to help in the Assault phase.

For the record I do think the Sons of Horus have their place in a list, but it's as an ally rather than the main detachment. Since I've argued with Zerghalo2 I've used Maloghurst and the Reavers a few times really well, though since I mainly play Death Guard I find myself leaning more towards allying in Night Lords (I like using Morturg, aka Commander Asshole (and in general playing as a Loyalist) and getting more Infiltrate as well as better Assault units is quite nice), though I think Maloghurst and Reavers would still be just as good if they were allied to any other force they're Sworn Brothers with, and this can also go for any of their other units too since that means them being good at everything will let them fill in gaps the other Legion current has. Also Lorgar was a bad example (imagine I said Be'lakor who can both do that and is 100 points cheaper than Lorgar Transfigured), but I think you get what I mean. There are a lot of times the Legion comes really close to being great but in my opinion it just unfortunately falls flat at the finish line. If for example they could take Word Bearers who could bring along Be'lakor (or even gain the ability to ally with Daemons on their own) I'd be a lot more in favour of the Sons, since the Sons are way better than the Word Bearers both at close-range shooting and close combat, so with the right buffs they'd mitigate so many losses you wouldn't have to worry about taking more troops to guarantee you get to use Merciless Fighters. This is a bit ironic considering they have Bitter Pride, and in fact if they didn't have Bitter Pride they'd be my number one favourite Legion to ally in, that being said, I haven't seen much of Sons of Horus Librarians being used in a game so maybe you could get the right buffs through luck anyway. -- Triacom (talk) 11:28, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

I'm glad you responded.

  • Actually, Banestrike boltguns aren't default on Reavers, they're an upgrade. Probably an important distinction. With them, though, they're essentially slightly more expensive Vets that have Sniper and Outflank. With Horus in the list, Vets are pretty damn good, since you can give them both Sniper and Outflank. I'd argue they're the best Vets in the game, so long as you have Horus.
  • If you have Loken against a whole squad of power weapons or lightning claws, you're probably going to get buried under weight of attacks in which case the 3+ vs. 2+ likely won't matter. Maloghurst is dope because, unlike a Command Squad, he can be safely tucked into a big squad of guys, or brought along in a transport with another squad.
  • I personally have rarely had issues turning on Merciless Fighters. I think you're overstating how many dudes get killed in Overwatch and how good Iron Hands/Death Guard are. A 10-man squad of Jump Pack Reavers being equal to 20 models is pretty handy.
  • The problem with the Promethium Relay pipes and flamers idea is that your guys have to sit out in the open and basically wait for the opponent to wander into your murder sphere, and that they aren't AP1/2/3. So you're locked into a single position and on top of that your guys are extremely vulnerable.
  • The nice thing about the Long March is that it doesn't lock you into a playstyle like the other Rites of War do. Of course, the actual best Sons of Horus RoW is Orbital Assault, which is practically made for them. Make Reavers and Support Squads your troops choices, put the Support Squads in Drop Pods and the Reavers in Dreadclaws, that gives you the best of everything. If you have enough points to take Horus and Justaerin too you're pretty much laughing at that point.
  • The Orbital Bombardment is tremendous, and being the most accurate bombardment in the game is completely bonkers. I typically use it to just wipe a horde off the map/make them irrelevant if they lucked out on cover saves or something.

Let's look at the other Primarch's weapons Vulkan S6 AP2 Assault 1, Rending, Line of Effect Ferrus: Graviton Gun (Heavy 1, AP4, Large Blast, Graviton), Plasma Blaster (S7, AP2, Assault 2) Perturabo: S6, AP3, Assault 3, Rending, D3 Bombardment Dorn: S5, AP4, Shred, Rending Mortarion: S8 AP2 Assault 1, Sunder Lorgar: I don't have the psychic charts in front of me but I don't remember there being anything fantastic with regards to witchfires in Telekinesis.

    • The only ones I'd say flat-out shoot better than Horus are Ferrus and Perturabo. Coincidentally those are the Primarch's that are probably the worst at combat. Vulkan's gun is short ranged and situational as hell, Dorn's gun relies too much on Rending and is going to leave you hanging when you don't roll well, and Mortarion's gun is just a one-shot blaster. And again, the only one with a bombardment is Perturabo, which matters! The bombardment is really good!

As for buffs, being Ld10 is functionally equivalent in most cases to +1 Ld. Sure, Raven Guard Infantry have Outflank, but Horus gives Outflank to everything, including vehicles. Corax's problem is that he wants to be on his own, but isn't good at shooting and if he's trying to assault then he's getting close enough to get shot. He's extremely vulnerable to Concussive as well. Better hope you don't see any Thunder Hammers or other Primarchs with Concussive on the other side. Yeah, Corax has a Jump Pack, but he doesn't have a no-scatter deep strike with the best terminators in the game, so I'd say it's probably a wash as far as manoeuvrability. With Horus though, the goal is to absolutely dumpster the biggest threat on the table, while Corax is more of a hit-and-run, pick off targets of opportunity type character. +1" to charge distance isn't that great, immunity to Fear isn't that great either (your average Ld9 squad will pass it about 83% of the time, and with Ld10 that increases to 91% of the time), +1 to CR is really good though, and I acknowledged that was good about Dorn as well. Are these better than blanket Outflanking to everything in your army? Personally I don't think so. And remember that you have to be able to draw Line of Sight to Lorgar to gain these buffs as well. So if you have him in a Spartan or some other vehicle, you're not getting those buffs at all.

    • I mean, you're right, most Primarchs are probably going to be worse than whatever their points equivalent of a superheavy is. The nice thing about most Primarchs though is that they're a lot less susceptible to getting alpha-struck by your opponents and can be buried in a big squad of murderers. Would I take Horus over my Warhound? Doubtful, Turbo-lasers are pretty fucking good. But I play most of my games at 2000 points, where I find Horus to be really useful.
  • Let's compare the rules here, against, say, The Long March. Sons of Horus gain a bonus to reserves, a bonus to close range shooting, and a bonus in combat all by default. Long March gives them Relentless to give your heavy weapons teams and rapier platforms the opportunity to get better angles against your opponent, Fleet to get them across the middle ground, and Crusader in your opponent's deployment zone to help decisively win combats and move faster. If I take Reavers as troops I can have them Outflank and be in your backfield with Banestrike bolters and Jump Packs on turn 2 typically. This is pretty good!
  • Something to consider is that Be'lakor is pretty much good against any army. That's not a Horus-specific counter, that's just, like, how good Be'lakor is.
  • I'd like to say that I do think that Word Bearers are probably the best Legion (mainly because Daemon allies fuck things up), but I think that it's not hard to argue Sons of Horus into a top-3 or top-4 spot. Their restrictions and limitations are just so much less than a lot of the other legions, their special units are all top-tier, and it's easy to tune them into a really powerful army, which is the hallmark of good legions.
  • Now that I've written all this, I guess I should point out that I mainly play with Reavers, and I think that has a big impact on how Sons of Horus run. Without Reavers, Horus, or some way to get Outflank, they play pretty weirdly since you have to actually cross the board. I'd actually say that's their biggest weakness: they suck at actually crossing the board.

-- Panascope(talk) 10:11, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

  • Banestrike comes by default with the bolters of the Reavers is what I meant, you don't need to pay a few points for the bolter then a few more points for the ammo. As for Outflank, I'm not sure why you like it so much. I can think of a few games where Mortis Contemptors and a Deredeo made Outflanking units almost completely useless as they arrived, and more often than not Outflank is actually a boon to me, rather than my opponent since this means I've got a decent amount of time to get into a good position and cripple the army that is still there before the outflankers show up, and even then they don't always show up together, or even in the same spot. For the record one of the reasons I also don't really like Deep Strike is because of the abundance of high AP blast weapons, hell one game I managed to use 3 Medusa's to kill Abbadon and his squad of Justaerin when they arrived (S10, AP2, and 2 Wounds won't help you against Instant Death). When Horus shows up with whatever squad he's accompanying it doesn't take much to drop pie plates on him, I might not kill him, but I've just wrecked the squad he's with. He might actually have a good ability if he had the option of giving a squad non-scattering Deep Strike without being forced to join it, since you're going to want to clear the battlefield of pie-plate droppers before he shows up, which is a little tricky when you start the game with a 750+ point handicap.
  • That 2+ save vs a 3+ save does make all the difference in the world when you're up against regular power weapons, I've seen Praetors mulch their way through Veterans/Terminators and survive thanks to their 2+ armour whereas they would be up shit creek if they were stuck with only Power Armour (regardless of their Iron Halo). Also your Command Squad really should be properly screened anyway, you don't need Line of Sight for the banner to work, and usually something that hits them isn't able to get past their 2+ armour (though if you are hiding him in a unit I'll agree on Maloghurst being more survivable).
  • It's not just how many dudes get killed in Overwatch, it's how many get killed in regular shooting phases before you reach the target since you can always expect some casualties, and usually the casualties you suffer before reaching combat will be more than the casualties you can give your opponent unless you're up against a bad player. Let's say I'm using the Reaping and I have a 10-man Heavy Support Squad armed with missile launchers and accompanied by a Master of Signal (one of my favourite combos), That results in nearly 7 Wounds (6.94, which might as well be 7), so long as there's anything else in between that Heavy Squad and those Reavers (probably a Tactical Squad with Rad Grenades) I no longer have to worry about them aside from assigning one squad cleanup duty. It's unfortunate since they're comparable to Palatine Blades who I have a fair bit of trouble with since they all have Artificer Armour (same starting cost, starting numbers, and cheaper wargear than Reavers too) and so this strategy doesn't work on them.
  • The 'issue' with the Relay Pipes isn't much of an issue though, especially if I'm up against a melee-centric army (like the Sons of Horus for example) since I've now got what amounts to a 20" range on my flamers vs 18" Banestrike Bolters. So long as I can force you to come to me, I don't need to worry about much else (and that's assuming I don't give them Infiltrate through Morturg, allowing them to do their job on Turn 1 without worrying about any sort of losses to the unit, though naturally in that case they lose the pipes).
  • I'm certainly not going to say the Orbital Bombardment is bad, it's just one use only. By comparison Vulkan can kill far more models per game since his auto-hits and will Wound MEQ's on 2's, same with Ferrus (you forgot he can fire two of those weapons per turn), Perturabo, Dorn (again that depends on who you're up against, Dorn is kickass against Auxillia) Mortarion (you forgot his Phosphex bombs which I've used before to cripple multiple squads of deep-strikers as they've arrived) and Lorgar has access to Telekinesis, where one of those powers is essentially an infinite-use bombardment, as compared to Horus' one use bombardment. You're quite wrong on thinking that those two are the worst at combat, Ferrus is really good with Forgebreaker and so is Perturabo, in fact they're in the upper area of challengers when it comes to Primarchs.
  • Ld 10 only looks like +1 Ld until your characters start dying, then it really does make a difference. I'd take limited Outflank but with Acute Senses over unlimited Outflank personally. As stated I don't like Outflank, and it's only made worse when your unit doesn't show up on the table edge you need them to be on. Corax's movement in regards to his army really isn't a problem since you should have Infiltrated somebody close already, and if you're not taking advantage of Infiltrate and Corax's ability to hide then why are you playing Raven Guard? In addition, he's not vulnerable to Concussive at all, if there's squads of terminators armed with Thunder Hammers, more often than not he'll wipe out the squad without any problems, and if there's 2 Wound termies with Thunder Hammers around (meaning you're playing Salamanders) then he's simply going to avoid them and you'll never catch him with them, and even if he's somehow in danger he'll just teleport away to Reserves. There's also the bit where he fucks with enemy deep-strikers which I imagine could be annoying if you're trying to pin him down (in most of the games I've played against him the most I did was scare him away for a short time, and the times I actually killed him I can count on one hand). I've already gone over the problem of having Horus arrive with Justaerin, and immunity to fear is really good when your characters start dying (once again), even when they're Ld 10 you do not want to suddenly only hit your opponents on 5's, especially when your main bonuses are in melee. One more thing to keep in mind with your blanket Outflank, if you lose everything before bringing in your Outflankers, it's game over, and if you don't take enough to soak up the initial punishment it can really come back to haunt you (admittedly the Sons' bonus to Reserves helps with this, but that doesn't change the fact that you might have very little army to support when they finally do show up).
    • Personally I'm skeptical of Primarchs in anything less than 3000 points, Corax is one that does really well in 2000, Mortarion is okay (not great, he becomes great in 3000 points and higher) but most of them are just going to be wasted, and as I stated earlier, starting with Horus and Justaerin in Deep Strike makes it so that you start with a 750+ point handicap (1250- vs 2000) and even when he arrives he cannot get into combat where he should be until Turn 3. I'd figure the Justaerin would be better off with a Spartan. Also best terminators? I guess that depends on what you're using them for, as there's many others they'd pale against, for example they suck if you pit them against generic Legion Terminators with Power Fists (even if Justaerin are also armed with AP2 weapons, however this is true for nearly every terminator, getting them into a slugging match against regular Legion terminators is a complete waste of points). If you're using them for anything besides going after 2+ armour then they're really good.
  • As I said, I don't think The Long March is bad, I just don't think it's all that special. To use another Death Guard comparison, I see it like the Creeping Death, it provides bonuses that are nice to have, yet none of them are game changers since my tactics remain the same.
  • You get what I mean with Be'lakor though, what I meant is that he's really good at countering Primarchs, aside from everything else, and he costs less than even the cheapest of them.
  • I'm not sure who I'd say is the best Legion, I've heard people say that Imperial Fists are the best, yet I don't have a problem winning against them (T5 does nothing against poison, not to mention I can just pollute the Fortifications they're trying to hide in while being immune to the same treatment) same with Iron Hands (once again, their effective T5 does nothing against poison or even Medusa's). There's always going to be a hard counter to another Legion, for example I really have no idea what the Sons of Horus would do to guarantee victory against the Emperor's Children, much like how my Death Guard have a really hard time dealing with Salamanders (since I can't win the chem/flame-war against them and the Salamanders do everything to avoid melee, losing me my two best bonuses) however I'd otherwise say the Salamanders are not a great Legion (Death Guard being more effective most Legions than the Salamanders are). Word Bearers with Daemon allies aren't so bad, because Daemons are about on par for what I'd expect for 30k (and Fury of the Legion usually wrecks Daemon Squads).

To close, I'll have to agree that the Sons' biggest problem is that they really suck at crossing the board. This is why I said they'd be my #1 ally if they didn't have Bitter Pride, because I could give them Infiltrate (using Morturg), but unfortunately I had to switch to Night Lords who also have the problem of crossing the board, however in their case I actually am able to give them Infiltrate. If anything the Sons really should have gotten something like Drop Pod bonuses (give them something like the Skyhammer Annihilation Force for example) which would have really helped them out, or even a RoW that made all their runs automatically 6" (or even 5" if 6 is too cheesy) like the Raven Guard with Corax. If they had that, then I'd agree they're one of the better Legions (this goes along with how I think they're almost great, they just fall flat at the finish). Also a little tip, you need to close two div's when doing a collapsible section, otherwise it affects every topic after. -- Triacom (talk) 23:25, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

  • Outflank is dope in a lot of situations where you can get at tasty backfield units early in the game. Of course it's bad against like multiple Contemptors and Deredeos, but everything is. Jump Pack Reavers are really good at Outflanking though.
  • This is kind of a bad example isn't it? If you had a unit as juicy as a full heavy support squad and a master of signal just hanging out in the backfield, I'd drop pod my support squad right next to them and send 20 plasma shots their way. With BS5 that's an awful lot of dead marines, even in 4+ cover. And if you go to ground that's a ton of points you just aren't using for a turn.
  • If I'm using a lot of deep strikes and long-range units a big support squad just hanging out in the middle of the board is a pretty big deal. And if they're not infiltrated then I'll probably just deal with them at range (thudd guns, vindicators, etc.). And Jump Pack Reavers can close that gap pretty handily as well.
  • Vulkan can't alpha-strike though, which is a big advantage for Horus. In fact, none of the other Primarchs can except for potentially Perturabo depending on how well you roll. Ferrus and Perturabo don't have enough attacks to reliably mulch through big squads, which is basically their counter. I'll concede Mortarion though, he gets better every time I look at him (I haven't actually played against him).
  • Ld9 vs. Ld10 really isn't that big of a difference, basically 1/12 of a difference in terms of probability (3/36 for failing Ld10 and 6/36 for failing Ld9).
  • I guess it's just divergent experiences. I've had a lot of success with Outflanking even with Deredeos and Contemptors on the table, while it sounds like you've run into more problems. But it sounds like I also put a lot more stuff into reserves, so I may have the advantage of overwhelming them while it sounds like you're outflanking one or two units.
  • I think most superheavies and Primarchs are better at lower points where your opponent just isn't going to have the capacity to deal with them.
  • In my experience The Long March doesn't change my tactics, but it pushes what I want to do over the top. Everyone just becomes a little better at their jobs and overall it ends up being very helpful. Warmaster's Portion on tactical support squads is the shit, for example. Reavers gaining Crusader makes them fast as shit and allows them to completely demolish squads they beat in close combat. Relentless is really great on stuff like rapier platforms where you can get a better angle on the opponent or move them out of hiding. I haven't used fleet much but that's because Sons of Horus suck at crossing the board.
  • Be'lakor basically counters everything though, and he's part of why I think Word Bearers are the best legion right now. Daemons (or perhaps more accurately, Telepathy) simply aren't balanced for 30k. It's why they took Telepathy away from Lorgar.
  • Emperor's Children are pretty bad if they don't get the charge, that's the key to beating them in my experience. Phoenix Terminators are really spendy for only having one wound.

-- Panascope(talk) 06:40, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

  • Maybe it really is a divergent experience with Outflank and I don't commit enough when I try it, or maybe it's because I have flyer defence that also doubles as good anti-infantry/Outflank that Outflank doesn't really get to me when it's used against me. Either way I guess I'll try it out in a few more games before writing it off for 30k.
  • On its own it's a bad example, if we're looking at my list in general if I'm doing a ranged list then I like to make it so that every unit is watched over by another unit, Grave Wardens/Tactical Squads screen the shooters from the front, Mortis/Deredeo Dreads guard the sides, Medusa(s) are in the back middle (of course how many I have of each varies by the point limit), and the purpose of this is to try and make it as hard to break through as possible, if I can prevent my shooters from getting pinned down in combat, I can usually win the shooting game, though that's just one example and usually I don't like lists entirely reliant around shooting unless I really want to win for some reason (not that it's ever a guarantee, just that my odds are better).
  • I'm not sure what you mean when you say you're using both Deep Strike and long-ranged units, if you're only taking ranged stuff while waiting for your melee guys to drop in I'd figure a Support Squad would be a big deal since (depending on what they're armed with) they can easily wreck the shit out of whatever's there (and Morturg can Infiltrate three of them along with himself).
  • Yeah they can't Alpha Strike, but Horus doesn't really have a good 'bomb' unit to be deployed with once you've used his bombardment, Justaerin are all right, but if you just want their ranged weapons to do the Alpha Strike with then you're better off with generic terminators (minus the multi-melta) as they won't cost as much when they get killed by the Medusa you didn't shoot because you used the bombardment to destroy the first one. If Horus had a rule that allowed him to make a disordered charge into combat after deep striking so long as he didn't shoot, then I could definitely see him being worth taking (again, he's just a step away from being great). If you ever do play against Mortarion though, here's how to deal with him: Bait him with a juicy target, for example a few Castellax or a Thanatar, then charge him with a 20-man Fearless blob (preferably with the standard/Morturg not being in the unit, or if you're just outright allying in Mechanicum make them Fearless Thralls). His 6 attacks work well for chopping apart regular squads, not so much a Fearless blob (it'll take him several turns to get free). There's a few reasons this is a good idea, for starters he's going to kill the Castellax and/or Thanatar, that's just a given, however even if he wipes out the entire blob after them he's not going to have made his points back, and in my opinion he's the Primarch capable of making his back the fastest thanks to his bombs and scythe. Secondly, if you don't pin him down he's going to continue fucking up your battle plan regardless of what it is, dropping dangerous terrain where you really don't want it, slaughtering Justaerin (who he can even ID with the Lantern), even penetrating vehicles isn't that hard since he has Sunder (granted it doesn't really work for anything above AV 12 unless he's using the Lantern) and Thirdly, if you don't pin him down his threat bubble means that not only can he jump right to the juiciest target, he can also protect his own army really well, teleporting him in between a combat squad and their target is a great way to keep them safe. The best part though? Even if your opponent knows about the trap and decides not to get caught by it, having Mortarion but being unable to go after highest point target is really frustrating (speaking from experience there) because he's the Primarch who absolutely won't be followed by his bodyguard (especially if you're using the Reaping, where he ditches them at the earliest opportunity), so he has nobody to take the tarpits for him (it also makes him vulnerable to plasma spam if you want to try killing him, I've seen two Moritats do it).
  • That's why I said it's more of an issue when your characters start dying, Ld9 to Ld10 isn't that much of an issue, Ld8 to Ld10 on the other hand? Much more of an issue.
  • The problem I have with lower point games when I'm using Primarchs is they generally don't buff their army enough (the bigger the army, the more units get buffed, usually (looking at you Angron)), and there isn't as much worthwhile stuff on the table for them to deal with. At 3000 points on the other hand I can expect all kinds of souped up squads to send Primarchs after whereas in games 2000 points and under the most common tactic is to just blow up their transport and ignore them, since there usually isn't another transport they can hop into (spare transports being much easier to get in 3000 and up which renders this strategy harder to do) so you've just rendered at least 25% of the enemy army ineffective (even more if they decided to put all of their eggs in one basket by having them in a Land Raider/Spartan along with another squad). Though as I stated before I've seen Corax perform really well at 2000 points.
  • I do find it odd that they took Telepathy away from Lorgar, but then gave Telepathy to everyone who can get Burning Lore (ie every Word Bearer's Character you're going to see), though in a way Lorgar is actually a better buffer as far as offensive abilities go (he just sucks more on the defensive side).
  • That is still my main problem with the Long March, it makes units better but it doesn't help them with their main weaknesses or give any huge bonuses. For example, Salamanders suck at close combat thanks to the fact that when they lose it, they lose hard, so they have a RoW that lets them all cause Fear. It's not going to make them great at close combat by any measure, but it will help them out occasionally. The Long March really should have given the Sons' Move Through Cover when they're in the middle part of the board (which would help them cross the board without being ridiculous), maybe both that and Fleet and then I'd say it's a good RoW. Even if it just gave them Stealth/Shrouded when they're in the middle (so long as the opponent was far away, similar to the Creeping Death), it would be a lot better.
  • Sons of Horus aren't really all that great either if they don't get the charge, since your melee benefits will come in much later than other Legions (by that I mean they happen after Rage, after A Talent for Murder, after Furious Charge, etc, which is odd because Merciless Fighters is essentially a lesser form of Rage and depending on the squad it's a hell of a lot weaker than A Talent for Murder) and you'll want every opportunity to make sure you get them (Merciless Fighters really should be the model gets to make their full attacks when they die, or something like Pseudo-shred, or even happen several Initiative steps EARLIER than their regular attacks (sort of like a super Hammer of Wrath) in my opinion). Phoenix Terminators are really pricey, I'll agree there, and personally while I wouldn't cry foul if they were given two wounds (it's odd that they're stuck with only one) they can certainly justify those points, and as somebody pointed out to me on the main page, it's not hard for them to kill 2 Wound terminators equal to them in points via beating them in combat (which they do by a lot) and sweep advancing. -- Triacom (talk) 07:40, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

Hey sorry for not responding sooner, it's been a busy week.

  • With regards to Horus, these just kinda seem like contrived scenarios, you know? I can't imagine deep-striking him against multiple Medusas without having something to deal with the others I don't shred with him and his squad. I like outflanking Reavers for this, personally, although tactical support squads are good for this too. And with the bonuses to reserves and close range shooting I've got pretty good odds of blasting them.
  • Horus's +1 to Ld turns a basic marine to Ld9, which as we've established really isn't that different from Ld10.
  • Horus also gets a boost by having good shooting and being the best close-combat character in the game. He's good at everything!
  • If they also got Move Through Cover, that Rite of War would be some busted shit. Getting that on top of Crusader and Relentless would be too much I think. Plus the Warmaster's Portion also makes the Alpha Strike even better, and with the new changes to Dreadclaws, Sons of Horus Legion Terminators are shaping up to be absolute monsters with combi-weapons.
  • The difference being that I don't necessarily have to get the charge to get my extra attacks. If I charge a World Eaters player or whatever, he doesn't benefit from Rage at all. It's kind of funny that you talk about Phoenix Terminators when I think they'd have a really hard time beating Justaerin, even if they got the charge, simply because Justaerin are Stubborn. I just did the napkin math in Excel and a vanilla Justaerin squad getting charged by a vanilla Phoenix squad only loses the first-turn combat by 1 wound mathematically (Phoenix end up with 2 unsaved wounds, Justaerin with 3), likely makes their leadership check from stubborn, and then proceeds to absolutely shithouse them in the second turn of the combat. And of course the Phoenix are far more weakened from each wound lost than the Justaerin, so the second turn combat is mathematically gonna be 3v5 terminators.
  • The leaked changes to the LACAL book I think really buffed the Sons of Horus. Anvillus Dreadclaws gain inertial guidance, vets get a monster point drop and access to combi-weapons, and also gain both Sniper & Outflank as part of one of their tactics.

-- Panascope(talk) 06:40, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

  • No Problem.
  • I don't really see how the multiple Medusa's are that contrived, personally I love them, S10, AP2 and they're large blast barrages for just 155 points? They're pretty sweet and easily capable of making their points back with just one shot. As for dealing with them before Horus arrives, what's your plan of attack? If you decide to try and keep him back until they're gone, then let's go over that in what I think is the best case scenario: turn 1 is going to be a harsh one, though since the Medusa's will likely need to move up (they usually do and after they move you'll probably have spread your models out to prevent them from being too badly hurt by the Medusa's) it won't be so bad. Turn 2 Horus still can't arrive, but now your Outflankers are here. Turn 3 Horus shows up, uses his precision bombardment and let's assume they manage to destroy the Medusa's somehow through both this turn and the previous one (I'm not sure why you seem to think Medusa's stick to the edges of the board, their guns simply don't have the range to use them like a Basilisk or a Whirlwind so I have to keep them more in the middle), so he and his unit are safe but they still can't charge, and finally Turn 4 is when Horus can do what he's best at. Even if everything goes well the game's half over before he gets stuck in the meat of things (then it's a race to see if he and his bodyguard can make back that 750+ point price tag), and if it doesn't go your way and the Medusa's aren't destroyed before he arrives (which is much riskier if you assume your Outflankers can get the job done sooner so you have him show up on Turn 2 with them), or if he arrives before your outflankers, or if your outflankers arrive on the wrong side of the board, the remaining Medusa's will crush whatever unit arrived with Horus. It's a big gamble is what I'm getting at, especially since you can't control when and where the Outflankers arrive (I know the when isn't the issue, but the where still is). It would be far better if he could just control when and where some other units would show up, Hidden Blade style (or even giving some units Acute Senses which would help a lot) or if he could get one of Fulgrim's advantages and let you re-roll both successful and unsuccessful reserve rolls, or if he could ignore the reserve penalties the enemy can enforce on you (you don't want your bonuses essentially cancelled out by something the enemy can do/bring).
  • I know Horus makes them +1 Ld, but we were talking about Primarchs like Lorgar, who essentially give regular marines +2 Ld. You were saying that it's functionally +1 Ld for squads and I pointed out that it's only +1 Ld until your characters start dying, whereupon it's essentially +2 Ld.
  • Horus' shooting is only good for one turn though, after that he's left with a very disappointing gun. I know he's good in combat, but he's not going to be there for most of the game without a good transport since aside from Fleet he has nothing that really let's him get from place to place (personally I think a flare shielded Land Raider/Spartan is better for Primarchs, it might hurt in the games when it's immobilized/wrecked/blown up but you don't have to worry about Medusa's and can get into combat by turn 2).
  • I don't think Move Through Cover in the middle part of the board would break the Long March, other RoW give armies things like T5 Marines, grav weapons for regular marines (try moving through those without Move Through Cover) not to mention perfect Outflank, Preferred Enemy, or Master Crafted and Move Through Cover at the same time (while still being able to run), meaning the Slamanders can march better than the Sons can.
  • I'll admit I forgot about the Justaerin being Stubborn, good point there.
  • You don't need to get the charge to get your extra attacks, but if you don't get the charge you're still not going to get them barring really good luck since you need to outnumber the opponent, and getting charged by the opponent makes it much harder to reach the I1 step while still outnumbering the enemy.
  • Are the changes to the Anvillus in the new book just in general or does it have specific provisions for the SoH? Because right now the SoH's specific Anvillus still doesn't have Inertial Guidance (the one in the Age of Darkness book that says you can take it for your SoH units) so a rules lawyer could argue that they're two separate vehicles.
  • I don't think lower points cost on Vets is really something that makes the Sons better in comparison to the other legions (I think it's a boost across the board), if anything it might make Reavers seem like a worse choice by comparison since Vets'll be more efficient, and if you're taking Horus then there's not much reason to give them the Outflank rule (also Vets could already choose Outflank even without him). Unfortunately the change to Seekers has made Banestrike rounds a really terrible idea (why would you ever exchange an AP2 round for an AP5 one that has shittier Rending?), to be honest I don't know why Banestrike rounds aren't available to the entire army for free, the range penalty really does hurt (especially if you intend on Rapid-firing which means you normally won't be able to charge), and if we're going to compare Banestrike rounds to regular ones, a Tactical Squad of 20 using Fury of the Legion will cause more Wounds with regular Bolters than a 20 man Tactical Squad armed with Banestrike (yes, even without Death Dealers on FotL and Death Dealers assisting Banestrike, FotL caused over 1.3 unsaved Wounds more).

-- Triacom (talk) 08:49, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

  • More thoughts
  • If it's 3 Medusas all deployed in the center of the board, I'd probably use Combi-weapon Vets, Legion Terminators, and Horus w/ Justaerin to get them. Dreadclaws are really good now that they have Inertial Guidance. I wouldn't solely rely on Outflankers to try and control the center of the map.
  • Right, but then we're still really talking about a 1 Ld difference, as Horus would boost to 9, while Lorgar would boost to 10. I'm not arguing that Lorgar's isn't better, just that Ld9 vs Ld10 isn't a huge difference.
  • I don't think his gun is disappointing, and while it's certainly not the best Primarch shooting, it's also not bad. But still, as a whole, his shooting is *very* good.
  • Well, like we've agreed, Sons of Horus aren't great at actually marching across the board. But with alternative deployment options they're very good.
  • Right, but the point is that they still have a chance of getting their bonus attacks even if things don't line up well for them. If Phoenix Terminators don't get the charge they're essentially worthless.
  • None of the people I play with would try and say the Dreadclaw entries represent two different vehicles. I mean, shit, they're literally named exactly the same thing.
  • Reavers are much worse than Vets now in most cases (I imagine they'll get a points reduction or bolters as standard gear in an FAQ), but Sons of Horus vets are some of the best because of BS5 on their new combi-weapons (which is the big get for Sons of Horus). The Banestrike exchange can sort of make sense if you intend on moving a lot, or are deploying them in a Drop Pod or Dreadclaw.
  • Frankly I agree with you overall on the Banestrike, it probably should be revamped. No idea why it couldn't just have been Rending, which would actually make them good and relevant.

-- Panascope (talk)

  • Another Reply.
  • So how do you intend to approach the Medusa's? They're certainly not going to be unguarded, and targeting the Vets, Termies and Horus' honour guard with them are all excellent ways to make their points back (those are what I normally target anyway since their range is too short to go after the units in the backfield), so long as they can do that I certainly don't mind that they're going to be destroyed (in essence, all of the units you'll deploy to kill them will be both more expensive than the Medusa's and unlikely to get within effective range compared to the Medusa's cannon, aside from Horus' one-shot weapon). For the record how I usually deal with a threat like them (not necessarily Medusa's as I usually fight Vindicators) is either with a heavy support squad armed for anti-tank or some Rapiers since out-ranging them is the safest move.
  • I feel we're running in circles with the Lorgar argument so I'll back it up a bit, I said that I felt Horus wasn't a good buffer compared to his points and other Primarchs like Lorgar, and used that Leadership bonus as an example, agreeing that +1 Ld isn't so great especially compared to +2 Ld only helps my point.
  • I suppose Horus' shooting isn't that bad if we're assuming he's going to get into combat immediately after firing his bombardment, otherwise it has the same effect that Banestrike, in that the shots that wound will usually bounce off the Sergeant's Artificer Armour. Personally I think that if the Primarchs don't have an AP2 weapon, then they don't have good shooting if we're just looking at MEQ's and I also don't think Horus should be shooting when he's also armed with a much more useful Cognis Signum.
  • Yeah, only dicks would try claiming the separate entries are different vehicles just to give themselves an advantage, but then again those are some of the people I know. You do have to admit that it's a little odd to pull out one book that has the rule, then pull out a different book that doesn't have the rule but has a different rule about how you can use it with other squads. Then again, that's just Forgeworld's proofreading at its finest.
  • Honestly I don't think Phoenix Terminators are that worthless if they don't get the charge simply because of the buff they provide to everyone around them, to the point that it can kind of be worth it just to have them near the combat (spread out in a line) without participating in it since drawn combats really suck (though thinking about it, given their cost +1 Attack instead of +1 Wound would help justify it a bit more).
  • At the end of the day I'm not trying to say the Sons outright suck (since no Space Marine Legion sucks), I'm saying that they're not one of the best. Yes with alternate deployments it certainly looks like they can be good, however at their best they're not going to be doing too well compared to most other Legions at their best (for example Alpha Legion/Raven Guard can deploy better than the Sons, with or without Horus and trying to use your Outflank will likely lead to you being crippled before your reserves can arrive). Regardless of how those games go and regardless of who they're up against, the Sons aren't exactly in an advantageous position simply because of who they are and if you want to say that it takes more skill and tactics to get victories with the Sons, then that's perfectly fine. I played Daemonhunters (sometimes pure Grey Kights, usually a Radical Inquisitor so I could use Daemonhosts) back in 3rd so I know exactly how that feels.
  • If you want to know who I think the Sons beat, well they beat the Ultramarines in terms of rules and unique units (excluding Suzerains who I think are ridiculous and the Damocles Command Rhino, something the Sons should have gotten an equivalent of instead of only being allowed 1) but not unique characters (since the author was in full dick sucking mode when it came to them), they beat the Word Bearers so long as we're not looking at Psychic Powers or Daemons (I honestly don't get why the Sons don't have the ability to make models sorcerers too, or at least get arcane protection since that's in the fluff), they beat the Salamanders since they can now out-perform them at close range (even if you don't charge) and right now I think that's about all I can think of.
  • If you'd like we can also turn this into "How the Sons can be improved without being made overpowered." since I do have a lot of suggestions about minor tweaks that could be done to them. -- Triacom (talk) 02:29, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
  • 'Ere We Go.
  • I'd probably Deep Strike or use Laser Destroyers to outrange you. It's not like massed artillery is some unstoppable setup.
  • I'm saying that +1 vs. Ld 10 isn't that big of a difference, even when characters start dying. You said that Horus wasn't great at buffing his army, using his leadership buff as an example.
  • Personally I usually end up using his gun to go after shit like special weapons and Vexilla carriers that don't have a 2+ armour save.
  • I mean, I just wouldn't play against someone who was trying to rules lawyer like that. This is just another divergent experience I think.
  • The 6" range isn't big enough to be useful very often in my experience.
  • Sons of Horus also do Orbital Assault far better than Raven Guard or Alpha Legion, especially now that Vets can take Combi-Weapons. I really don't think Sons of Horus need a lot of fiddling to play well, their army buffs are straightforward, apply to basically every phase of the game, and are fairly strong in my experience. Hell, I tabled a dude just yesterday playing 1500 points while only losing 4 models. Death Dealer is ridiculously strong with combi-weapons and Outflank, especially when he was trying to Outflank as well.
  • I think Sons are generally better than World Eaters and Emperor's Children as well. I imagine that Sons (and everyone else) are going to get additional special units within the next year, like their version of Gal Vorbak. I also think Forgeworld is going to FAQ Reavers to have a purpose again.

-- Panascope (talk)

  • The reply.
  • Not a bad strategy as a start, I don't have any sort of transports that'll make better targets for the laser destroyers (or heavy armour at all really unless you count Dreadnoughts) but unfortunately they cannot outrange the Medusa's as they have the same range. It might still be a good idea to have them spread out though since Laser Destroyers on Rapiers cost far less than a Medusa, so it's wasteful to shoot at them when there are better targets around. My best counter to that would probably be Morturg's Infiltrators getting close enough to destroy them before having the Medusa's crush whatever else is around. As for Deep-strikers, also not that bad an idea, though that depends on what you're bringing. If you bring in units with melta bombs, then I'm sorry but they're fucked since annihilating Deep-striking units that can't destroy them as soon as they arrive is one of the things Medusa's excel at.
  • I still hold that +2 Ld is a good buff however and yes, that was one of my examples since we can both agree that +1 Ld isn't that much at all.
  • I guess that works? I never saw Precision Shot being reliable enough to come in handy all that much, though if your opponent has his Vexilla and special weapons exposed on the side then go for it.
  • For the Phoenix Terminators, when models are spread out, both the Phoenix's and your regular models you can get a lot more range than you think, since all you need are two models, one from each unit, to be near each other. Even at just five Phoenix's that gives you a 22" bubble.
  • I do agree that I don't think they need a lot of buffs to play well, I just think they could use a few minor ones. As for the RoW they also do it better than the Iron Hands and Salamanders, however Salamanders, Iron Hands, Alpha Legion and Raven Guard shouldn't be using Orbital Assault anyway, especially not the Alpha Legion and Raven Guard, why would you ever give up Infiltrate for Deep-strike? I am a little curious who you normally play against, and honestly tabling is one of the reasons I really don't like Outflank, I've had too many games that I've played or that I've watched where all the important assets arrive in the wrong place or at the wrong time (and while admittedly I haven't done it yet, I have seen somebody beat another person who relied too much on Outflank, to the point that they were tabled before their good units could arrive).
  • I don't see how the Sons are that much better than World Eaters and Emperor's Children, if they're better at all (which I would say they're not) especially since all World Eaters can get Rage and S+1 weapons by default now, and the Emperor's Children get such huge advantages by charging. Yes getting the charge might be a little tricky, if the Assault Squads hadn't had a massive points drop making charging a lot easier for everyone and if they weren't using the Angel's Wrath RoW so that they can keep getting the charge. Let's do a little comparison though, Palatine Blades and Reavers cost the same, but Palatine Blades have Counter-attack instead of Assassin's Eye and Outflank, Artificer Armour for their Sergeant equivalent (a regular power sword will rip through the Chieftan), their power swords are half the price and they can get Sonic Shriekers which don't need the charge to work (in fact, Reavers armed with Power Swords and charging Palatine Blades also armed with Power Swords don't have a very high chance of winning overall). Being able to get your special ability even if you don't get the charge doesn't matter that much since actually getting it in that scenario is incredibly unlikely, far more so than the Emperor's Children and World Eaters not getting the charge. I doubt Forgeworld will FAQ Reavers though considering how long it took them to un-fuck Justaerin.

-- Triacom (talk) 20:31, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Blood Angels Moritat[edit]

Blood Angels may swap out for a pair of hand flamers on their Moritat. Guess what? They never miss, so the volley fire will never fail until the target is dead. So you can literally just keep rolling dice until the other guy just agrees to remove the targeted miniature/s.

No. A million times no. There are multiple problems with this idea: 1) FW emails pointing out that this was not how it's intended to work 2) you don't "technically" roll to hit, which the moritat special rule relies on 3) The way the rules are worked out, you have an infinite hit pool, but no way to access the 'wound' pool. Then again: you COULD also not work to actively abuse rules. -Brennonjw (talk) 20:25, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
This has been resolved in the new Crusade Legion list: weapons that do not roll to hit (i.e Hand Flamers) do not benefit from the chain-fire ability. In addition, you cannot total more than twelve hits with both pistols, so the days of infinite bullets have gone. Good riddance.--Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 09:54, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
It's good that it has been sorted. Still twin-inferno Moritat Blood Angels will be the bane of any vehicle without Armoured Ceramite. ~OP

Legion Recon company as allies[edit]

The "Consolidated Forge World FAQ & Rules Clarifications" says that "Effects of a Rite of War do not carry over to Allied Detachments from the Primary Detachment and vice versa", but the Recon RoW talks about stuff in the Primary Detachment...which it wouldn't be able to affect if it was taken on an allied detachment (and as such wouldn't be required to bring any Recon squad at all). So, what gives? -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 04:06, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

You're quite right, seems like FW really inconsistent with the distinction between detachment, primary detachment and "army" because the terms are not interchangeable, particularly when "Army" refers to all detachments: the Recon Company rule makes Recon squads compulsory troops in the Primary Detachment, but only applies if you use the RoW in the Primary Detachment since Effects of a RoW don't carry over (as per the FAQ). But the terms of the RoW must still be adhered to, in this case: the Primary Detachment must include an additional Recon Squad as a compulsory choice, that no Terminators be fielded in the Detachment (so your allied detachment then), and that no Heavy Support units be deployed on the table. There are other RoWs that apply their limitations across both detachments, like the Raven Guard Liberation Force saying no Immobile units are allowed, and the Angels Wrath may not field vehicles with the "Tank" type in the Army irrespective of which detachment used the RoW. So an allied Recon Company has no stipulation anywhere that it needs to take any Recon Squads.
One could make a good point for limitations not being carried across detachments either. But since "Effects" (capital E) are a defined term when speaking about RoW it would seems that the RAW needs the whole army or specific detachment to adhere to a limitation where it states it applies. If that were the case then FW should have said "Rules" rather than "Effects".
In any case, we're picking and choosing when to apply that FAQ anyway, since if we take the FAQ as an absolute and disallow any rule or effect to carry across detachments, then it would mean that "Vigil Opertii Mission" and "Sacrificial Offering" Rites of War just cease to function, even though they were designed with allies in mind. FW just needs to get more consistent with their use of terminology, and they wouldn't even need a FAQ for the problem. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 05:58, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Symbols in 30k[edit]

Feel free to argue about them here. I've made my point - Palantine Aquila is NOT a regular one (see pg 103 of HH: Book 1, where it is outright stated that Aquila had many forms), and Aquila Miltaris found on Dreadnoughts (pg 76 of the same book) is further proof. Also take note of it named "the Imperial seal" on pg 19, IE the symbol of Imperium, not the Emperor. Moreover, for those who think "Oh, early mk2 has Aquilas because they fought under the Emperors command" - wrong, they used Raptor Imperialis (pg 75) or their Legion icon (pg 93). Pg 87 of HH: Book 5 marks Aquila-bearing mk2 as "mid-production". --Flutist (talk) 12:20, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

  • The Emperor granted the Emperor's Children the exclusive right to bear the Palatine Aquila in their own heraldry, and the honour only became available to the loyalists after the end of the Heresy. Never said "it's illegal to even wear a single Aquila", but to have it as "heraldry". I doubt having Aquila gorgets, kneepads or belts counts as "bearing it as your heraldry" like the EC do on their chests and banners. Furthermore, there are several Aquila styles, but the Aquila Imperialis is rounded on the bottom, while what most refer as the "Palatine Aquila" is much more angular and flat than the previous one. TL;DR: Non-EC 30k marines can wear Aquilas...just not on their chests. There's more laxity on vehicles as their Aquilas can be seen as imperial stamps, but you should still avoid the ones that look like pyramids, as those represent Him rather than the Imperium. -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 03:31, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
    • I cannot disagree on this, but the only mark bearing Aquila on its' chest is, well, "Aquila pattern", which was not used in Heresy. If somebody uses them, it's either siege of Terra (per ord fluff IF begun producing it on Terra due to schism of Mars) or he doesn't give a damn about Heresy history and is pretty much indifferent to Aquilas as such. Both FW and GW minituares don't have Palantine Aquila you'll need to quote shave off end quote just for playing Loyalists. --Flutist (talk) 06:20, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
      • Back in the day when "so shave off those Aquilas" was written on the summary, it was referring to MkVII as conversions were frequent. Furthermore, even though the Imperialis (winged skull) already existed in 30k, it was a symbol of bravery and loss, and eventually came to represent the Emperor's sacrifice. As such, you wouldn't have a whole army of marines with winged skulls on their chests, not even in the Siege. And wasn't the Imperial Aquila granted to the Loyalists as one of the Emperor's final commands prior to being permanently enthroned, along with "put shards of my armour in the Crux Terminatus"? -- Zerghalo2 (talk) 15:55, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
        • Definetly not "back in the day", cause when I tried to edit this section 2 month ago, I got the following replies: "Few besides the EC were allowed to have the Aquila on their chests" from you and "Mk2 armour has it because it was made before they found any Primarchs (ie the Emperor was the one running them)" from Triacom. Haven't had time to do some digging - until yesterday. We also don't know anything about how FW sees siege of Terra now (considering how they altered a lot of fluff from previous editions), so no information on Mk7 yet. Maybe IF were granted Aquila before siege to aknowledge their role of sentinels, maybe it was given to all marines as a final command (however, the Crux Terminator thing is a legend in 40k. Would like a link on Emperor's final words, too), but why was the pattern called Aquila from the beginning then? Too many questions and no answers from FW now. --Flutist (talk) 19:56, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
          • Then don't put Aquilas on their chests. That's just asking for arguing.
            • I do not use mk7. We're talking vehicles (like GW plastic Predator), Dreadnoughts (even some of FW ones have Aquilas), jetbikes and things like belts on mk2, small symbols on mk4 and such here. The point I believe have been proven is that Aquila shouldn't be shaven off on sight if you're fielding Loyalists. --Flutist (talk) 06:32, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Need proof on Coils of Hydra[edit]

Guys, it says "Even though the rules state that Mutable Tactics is granted to your army at the point of picking your Warlord Traits (thus just before deployment) you can circumvent the "needs a DT" restriction by picking Infiltrate as your Mutable Tactic, emails from FW confirm it". Can anybody please show me screenshots of that emails? --Flutist (talk) 20:37, 22 October 2016 (UTC)

  • On hindsight, they sort of answered my question and I sort of interpreted the answer.
Information that will lead to Hillary's arrest.png

--Zerghalo2 (talk) 07:05, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

    • Many thanks! --Flutist (talk) 17:30, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Leman Russ Sever Life[edit]

Does Sever Life cause the Toughness tests to happen per Wound, or does it cause them to happen per Unsaved Wound? -- Triacom (talk) 21:40, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

  • Neither, Sever Life works if the sword wounded at all, not per wound. Whether or not it applies if the sword caused wounds, but all were saved I can't say. Unification (talk) 22:11, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
When I asked that it was when somebody wrote the wrong rule (at the time I was unable to read the rules myself), but thanks for the clarification. If it just says it's caused after a Wound then he can probably beat Horus (even without his dogs), which would make him the only Primarch to do so, and even if he can't win normally, with his dogs Horus doesn't stand a chance. -- Triacom (talk) 00:32, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Angron's Gorechild and Gorefather[edit]

Any proof goes here of them not giving bonus attack for 2 weapons. The moment I see something besides words I'll change that Tactics myself, you have my word.

Explain to me why it says that the extra attack for using both is included in his profile if they don't take up both hands. The Fallax blades have their +1 Attack included in their special rules, Gorefather and Gorechild do not, instead they're two weapons that share the same profile. By your logic, equipping a marine with two power weapons and a pistol would get you +2 attacks since power sword and power sword would share the same profile. -- Triacom (talk) 22:44, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
It's simple, really, because they are listed as one weapon, unlike 2 Power Swords (see Deathcult Assassin, for example). Their +1 attack is a bonus one and a weapon's rule, so if Angron somehow isn't able to attack with them, by being disarmed by Phoenix Lord, for example, he'd still get +1 attack (per GW FAQ about weapon's rules not requiring wielding the weapon itself). RAW they have no Two-handed or Specialist weapon USR, so nothing prevents Angron to grab another attack for 2 ccws (Gorefather and Gorechild + Spite Furnace). Fluff < crunch, sadly, and this is probably the case where RAW contradicts RAI.--Flutist (talk) 22:57, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
The extra attack from two CC weapons is included in his profile. That's literally what the entry for Gorefather & Gorechild says. BRB says you only get one extra attack from two close combat weapons, period. Getting another attack would have been nice, but common sense > questionable RAW. I agree with Triacom.
"Their +1 attack is a bonus one and a weapon's rule..." Bullshit. If it was a weapon's special rule, then it would be listed under the weapons section for special rules, just like the Fallax blades which you keep saying have the identical wording even though they clearly don't. -- Triacom (talk) 02:40, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
I'd also like to point out that your example of Death Cult Assassins doesn't work since they don't have two weapons and a pistol. They only have 2 weapons whereas you're claiming Angron can use 3. -- Triacom (talk) 02:43, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
All that said, I think we can all agree that this rule was poorly written. It makes the "10 base attacks" from the Nails a little confusing. Forge World rules can be damn frustrating to work around.
Yeah I'll agree that FW's rules can be pretty poorly written, not to mention poorly proofread. Remember Eidolon's Thunder Hammer losing the Cumbersome rule, or Kyr Vhalen's Relic Blade? -- Triacom (talk) 03:18, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
I remember- I just wish I didn't! Cheers!
Once again: Gorechild and Gorefather have 1 weapon profile and are listed as one weapon. It' 1 weapon RAW, like Panapoly of the Raven Lord. Angron is using 1 weapon and a pistol. There is no words "+1 attack for 2 weapons" in their profile. They just give +1 attack, source of that attack being unspecified. You're trying to prove that Legion Veterans have 2 attacks because the have Bolt Pistol and CCW per model, it's in their wargear so bonus attack is in their profile, that is wrong. And yeah, Deathcult Assasins don't have a Bolt Pistol, but two Power Swords and nothing else. I also pointed out that personally I think whole Angron situation is a misprint, but one that has been around for whole FW HH, and you can't just write your homerules on the main page without pointing out how it works RAW. --Flutist (talk) 07:52, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
Oh for Papa Nurgle's sake. Veterans don't have an entry in their wargear saying that the +1 attack is included in their profile. Angron does. If you're gonna talk about RAW, read the rules.
That's the point --Flutist (talk) 14:37, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
No, the point is that Angron's extra attack for having two close combat weapons is included in his profile. The same does not apply to Veterans. The issue here isn't Death Cult Assassins, Veterans, or fluff vs crunch. The issue is that Angron does not get an attack for 2 CCWs from his pistol, because he already has the extra attack, and you only get one extra.
Hold on Flutist, if they're one weapon then why are they always referred to in the plural? The only time that ever happens is for separate weapons, which would mean that they are separate in this case. -- Triacom (talk) 00:26, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
Because fluff-wise, they are two separate weapons; crunch-wise, they are listed as one weapon "with the following profile". They are also mentioned as one bit of equipment. --Flutist (talk) 10:30, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
Half the reason I got into 30k (the other half is that I was tired of having money) is to avoid this sort of rules lawyering. In spite of multiple emails from Forgeworld (I'm waiting on another reply just to make sure they haven't changed their minds) you keep insisting that two axes are one weapon. This isn't fluff. It's in the wargear entry. It's on the model. Don't be That Guy.
Crunch-wise you've yet to prove they're one weapon, and not two separate weapons that share the same profile. If the weapons are always listed as being plural, then they're going to be two separate weapons. This is extremely important as otherwise (as stated earlier) 2 power swords could be claimed to only take up one hand, and the only reason they don't is because they're plural. -- Triacom (talk) 11:24, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
Problem is, due to Glorious Forgeworld Editing, sometimes you have to homerule something, play derp-RAW or write a letter to Forgeworld (and their answers, on Facebook at least, may be... unprofessional at best). I know I'm acting like an asshole now, and I don't even play World Eaters, so there is no gain for me, but, imho, this wiki is something all people in hobby can rely on, and we can't just write something that strictly contradicts RAW without presenting solid proof. About Power Swords - they are two separate weapons. If they had weapon profile named "two power swords" - yeah, you'd be able to use them with one hand. --Flutist (talk) 11:31, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
Due to glorious Forgeworld editing you forgot how singular and plurals work? Let's look at this with your logic: "I have a weapon that says 'two power swords', how weird, there's an entry for power sword, but not two power swords, I guess I don't know how these work." You're bullshitting at this point. The plural in the description makes it very clear they're two weapons that have the same listed profile, and I just realized there wouldn't be an easy way around without listing the profile twice and here's why: If Gorefather & Gorechild both had the two-handed rule you'd be arguing that they're separate weapons that both have the two-handed rule, and as such cannot contribute an extra attack. I don't see what they could do to make it any clearer, and maybe if FW wrote the description as if they were talking about a single weapon then you might have a case, but right now you don't. If you have a counter argument feel free to list it, because the post I'm replying to countered nothing. -- Triacom (talk) 11:42, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
Open the book. Read the rules. Carefully. See that "they give Angron +1 attack, this has already been includuded in his profile"? The source is specified? No. You're just so sure it's for 2 CCW, but why is it incorporated in his profile? It shouldn't be written then in the first place. And as written, that bonus attack is ALREADY in profile, no matter if weapon itself is two-handed, specialist or whatever. And if you're so fond of singular and plural, the right sentence would be "they both use the same weapon profile", then they would be listed as 2 weapons. They are not, as it is. --Flutist (talk) 12:00, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
I did read the rules and I did read them carefully. You however did not, so let me make it clearer to you: "THEY give Angron +1 attack..." You cannot refer to a single weapon as 'they', and that's where your argument falls apart. Also you seem surprised that FW included the attack in his profile when GW used to do this all the time and FW did it with other characters already, such as with Caleb Decima. If they never stated that it was originally included in his profile then we'd have people arguing whether or not the weapons could be used to give him an additional attack OH WAIT. -- Triacom (talk) 12:13, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
I see you fail to read what I've written above about "fluff < crunch", and also did so with Caleb Decima, who has two attacks base, Power Axe and Bolt Pistol. About other Primarchs - see Corax, whose Panapoly are Two-Handed so he don't get +1 attack for Pistol, and Guilliman, who has 2 Specialist Weapons and 4 attacks base, 5 with them. If they didn't included that attack in Angron's profile, it would be so much easier, as, even if Gorefather and Gorechild are listed as 1 weapon, he still gets +1 attack for his pistol. You argument is therefore invalid. --Flutist (talk) 12:22, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
So is it fluff that he gets an extra attack from the weapons then? You're claiming that one word is fluff, while claiming it and the sentence it's used in is crunch at the same time. Maybe you should get back to this discussion when you've made up your mind on whether or not that sentence fluff or crunch, because it's either one or the other, not both and you're trying to pull a ridiculous double standard which does nothing but discredit your own point, since if the sentence "They give Angron +1 attack..." is fluff and not crunch then that means he doesn't get an extra attack at all. Since you're treating that sentence as crunch, I will too, and in none of your examples have you explained how 'they' equates to 'one weapon'. They are not listed as one weapon, they're listed as having the same profile, and until you can prove that multiple equals one your argument is invalid. Also the issue with Caleb Decima wasn't his attacks, it was his Toughness because his Machinator Array boosted it, and FW included in his original profile. -- Triacom (talk) 12:30, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
Please, don't be ridiculous. Fluff is "they" are two weapons. Crunch is "they" have 1, combined weapon profile, and give Angron additional attack. And, once again, what about other Primarchs? --Flutist (talk) 12:58, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
Please tell me what I'm missing then. "They give Angron +1 Attack..." Why is it that when I use this statement it's fluff, but when you use it the statement becomes crunch? It's one or the other, either it's fluff that he has an additional attack from one weapon, or it's crunch that they are two weapons. As for the other Primarchs, I never addressed them because they're not relevant to this discussion. There's also this: "Crunch is "they" have 1, combined weapon profile..." Prove it. Where's your evidence that they have a combined profile instead of having the same profile? -- Triacom (talk) 13:04, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
Because if they were separate weapons, the wording would be different, as I mentioned earlier, and even if you're right and they are, see above, the bonus attack from them is nowhere stated to be "bonus attack for two or more weapons". The irony is: instead of just asking Forgeworld you keep trying to prove your point of view to me, despite the contrary one existing since the dawn of this tactics. --Flutist (talk) 13:42, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
Why would the wording be different, just because you want it to be? I'll agree that the extra attack isn't stated to be from two different weapons, though I doubt anyone would see "They give Angron +1 Attack..." And not figure out what they meant. That's a situation where you're going to have to use the golden rule of the game, which means as far as tactics go you're only going to get it 50% of the time, no matter how much you try to rules lawyer it. Also that's not ironic at all, I sent FW an email for clarification a while ago but it takes them ages to get back to you for a simple question (in the email about rad grenades I linked earlier it took them a few weeks to reply), as for the 'contrary one', yes opposing views have existed for quite a while, that doesn't make them right, and it doesn't mean views can't change (just look at Shrike's discussion page where it was agreed he couldn't Infiltrate a unit, then he could, then he couldn't again). -- Triacom (talk) 18:56, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
>Why would the wording be different? - Because it would be the way you want it to be, fair and square. "Golden rule" a good rule if something occurs suddenly in the game, but not on regular basis. There is such thing as "precedent", and it's the main factor in common law. What is personally I trying to do here is making sure everyone's first game is right (I quess one did read this tactics before it), and there is no harmful precedents, and if the reader's opponent says "no, this is not how this rule/weapon/whatever works", he should have this wiki to rely on, and, in turn, this wiki's position must be built on proofs, if wording is unclear, such as it is in this case. About Shrike - GW made Infiltration rule very clear in last FAQ. Also, EatTheRich said he already has emails, they would quite suffice. --Flutist (talk) 19:39, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
So you do want the wording to be different simply because you want it to be? Sorry but that's not how any sort of rules lawyering works. I agree that this wiki should be built on proofs, which is why I'm arguing about plurals so much, and I also don't think for a second that anyone's going to read the rules and not think that Gorefather and Gorechild are two separate weapons whose attack is already included in Angron's profile (where else would the attack come from?). In any case you could also email FW yourself, just like I did and just like EatTheRich did, yet you didn't. If you want the wiki to be built on facts, then you should have, just as I emailed them about the Rad grenades even though I liked abusing them. -- Triacom (talk) 19:57, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
One more thing, when I emailed FW over a year ago when I was curious about how some Mechanicum characters worked (before they got their own full book that explained everything) one of the things FW said to me was this: "We at Forge World encourage the use of “house rules” by this we mean if a specific rule is unclear or may have multiple meanings or indeed different meanings to different people, we would say use the time old tradition of a 4+ roll off or what we prefer more is to follow the theme and storyline of what would happen if the battle were a real conflict. As long as your opponent is okay with you using the chosen rules or models then we say have fun!" They're very liberal with what can and can't happen and nothing is really set in stone, if you want to argue that his +1 attack doesn't come from the axes and that they give him a new one, you're going to have to be prepared to roll off for every single game you want to claim that in. -- Triacom (talk) 20:00, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
Of course Forgeworld would say that, because their editors are getting paid for nothing, and you can't play propely without RAI (Custodes Misericordia, Raven Guard's "Furious Assault", White Scars' Swift Action, the list goes on...). >So you do want the wording to be different simply because you want it to be - No, but because it's awful bad the way it is? If it weren't we wouldn't have this conversation in the first place. My emails are ignored by Forgeworld for some reason, I did write them about that 5 days ago or so, but that only upped the number of unanswered emails to four, and Facebook support is well, special --Flutist (talk) 20:35, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
That doesn't change the fact that they still said it, so you're going to have to go by it. I already pointed out how they're referred to as multiple weapons so you cannot claim he uses his pistol, and if you claim that he's going to get +1 attack for multiple CCW's while already having the +1 attack in the description you're going to need to roll for it against pretty much everyone you play. If you want this wiki to be about fact then you're going to have to add that little fact to the main page. Incidentally the books are printed in China, so I also doubt FW cares too much about how they're written. -- Triacom (talk) 20:46, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
You cannot prove he doesn't get attack for 2 ccw either; it's a stalemate. >against pretty much everyone you play - Wrong. As I said above, the other option existed since times immemorial, and everyone was okay with it. And, once again, "I don't like it" is not a reason to delete it - without solid proofs. Books are printed in China, but they are not written here, and it's not Chienese fault the book they print has mistakes in it.--Flutist (talk) 20:58, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
Yes, it's a stalemate which is why I said it should be put on the main page, because the other opinion has always existed, but not every opinion can be right when you play a game. You're going to have to choose one or the other, and how you're going to do that most of the time is with the dice. Also I'm not the one deleting your edits on the main page. Yes it's not China's fault that FW has terrible proofreaders, however they are usually the cheapest option available and my point was that if FW's going with the cheapest option then that means they don't care too much about what the words they're printing (also see the email I got on rad grenades for more proof of that). -- Triacom (talk) 21:05, 15 February 2017 (UTC)
The dice is a good one-time solution, but not as a system. When something like that appears, first step is to ask Forgeworld about it, then, if their answer is bad/stupid ( for example, I asked FW on Facebook if Chimerae +1S gives them S10 powerfists and which S is used for S tests, they answered "no" and 5, respectively. Problem is S tests require unmodified S from profile, so that answer was given by someone who didn't read the rulebook), you homerule it inside of your community. With Angron the first step wasn't made. And yeah, I know it's not you undoing that edit, because such behaviour is extremely childish, and you sound too reasonable for it. --Flutist (talk) 08:09, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
Sorry to tell you but if you want to argue this then you're going to have to use it as a system. FW isn't responding to me about it (yet), and as they stated their solution is to roll off on it. Also while I might be an asshole I'm not going to undo something just because I don't like it, if that was the case then I'd have rewritten the entire Tau article explaining how thoroughly that Mont'ka book fucked up the whole faction. -- Triacom (talk) 08:23, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
Definitely off topic, but what's wrong with Mont'ka? --Flutist (talk) 14:22, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
To make a long story much shorter (for the longer version just look at the talk page of the Damocles Crusade) the story took the Tau and turned them into conquering enslavers who weren't interested in the greater good. When they take over planets now they send the original inhabitants to labour camps or mining colonies, and yes I do mean all of them, and then they replace the original population with Tau entirely. It was also written by somebody who didn't understand how the Tau are supposed to fight and the Imperium would have to fight through several Tau defence lines, even though the Tau hate static defences. This was whenever the author wasn't sucking off the Tau at every opportunity and intentionally having the Imperium take the dumbest course of action possible (including choosing not to shoot the Tau for no reason, and this happens several times) just so that the Tau could win. To me the crowning moment is in the final fight where the Tau miraculously get the ability to control the weather right after the AdMech destroyed their weather controllers, Farsight outfights an Eversor Assassin while not having a working shield generator, Shadowsun and a random Tau outfight a Callidus, the Space Marines choose to attack a training complex of no importance whatsoever, 200 marines behind Tau lines vanish offscreen, the Imperium only chooses to attack one side of the city the Tau were in and intentionally sends all of their tanks and infantry into zones good at killing both (and in straight lines) rather than looking for weak points or trying different tactics, and the Tau win the final fight even though for at least half of it they were without their commanders and the book directly stated that without their commanders they had no hope of winning. Also they lose two Etherals but none of the Tau seem to notice about the first one or care, because why would they? -- Triacom (talk) 16:56, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
  • Dear user 70.114.163.77, if you keep changing the page like this without providing proof then we're going to have no choice but to ask the admins to slap you with a suspension. I genuinely don't want to do this, but you're leaving us little to no choice in the matter. To get proof all you need is the snipping tool (if you own a PC then it's already pre-installed on your computer), use it to draw a square around the email from forgeworld, scrible out your personal info and then link to it, just like I did in the rad grenade section of this discussion. Also Flutist you don't have room to talk with the double standard that 70.114.163.77 is using considering you did that earlier in this discussion. -- Triacom (talk) 03:40, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
    • >FW's general response whenever an issue comes up that they haven't resolved yet - They haven't resolved that since the first book? That's, like, 5 years. I know FW's common answer is "Maybe we'll put it in the next FAQ", but that... --Flutist (talk) 08:15, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
It is their general response when they have an issue they haven't resolved yet (at least in my experience), having time pass doesn't make it any less illegitimate. Granted it usually comes alongside "look for the next FAQ" but it's still their solution. -- Triacom (talk) 09:16, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
Wait, but how can be bonus attack for two weapons be included in his profile if it's, you now, bonus one, so can be added after his attacks are maxed out (10), as per rulebook, so he gets 12 on charge? And Angron definetely can bring his attacks to 10. --Flutist (talk) 10:47, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
Bonus attacks can be included in the profile because they do that sort of thing a lot. Just like how Calleb Decima's bonus Toughness is included in his profile, just ike Space Marine Bikers have bonus Toughness included in their profile, just like Tau Crisis Suits have bonus Toughness included in their profile. 40k has been doing this sort of thing since 3rd edition, it's not new or strange by any measure. If you just mean to say this means he can get 12 attacks on the charge then you're right. -- Triacom (talk) 19:53, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
Angron is limited of ten attacks max in his profile by Butcher's Nails, that means, if that attack is indeed for 2 ccw, he won' get 12 attacks on charge, only 11, as it is already in profile. That's definetely can't be, as bonus attacks are added to one in profile (as per rulebook). Which means while I still think it's a misprint, FW has fucked up royally, and that email is badly needed. About something included in profile - only some of FW dreadnoughts get it, like Leviathan, and that thing has it's own rules for weapons. At least that's what I was told by FW at FB when I asked why it loses attack with the removal of last claw (it still has default CCW, and Walkers has bonus attacks for weapons after the first, but attack is still lost). --Flutist (talk) 21:10, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
Yes, that's what I'm trying to say. As far as the thing about profiles go, there are other models who had similar effects before, 3rd edition penitent engines for example lost an attack when they suffered a weapon destroyed result and the 5th edition versions also had the bonus for two weapons included in their profile, with the loss of one affecting their profile, so once again this isn't new. -- Triacom (talk) 22:50, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Forgeworld finally got back to me, as such here's the proof that Angron does not get the bonus attack for extra weapons: http://imgur.com/a/8n8RK Please do not try and argue that their office interpretation is incorrect, as Forgeworld is the one making the rules, and unless we get an official statement to the contrary this is the best alternative we have, and the interpretation of the rulemakers carries more weight than the players. -- Triacom (talk) 21:39, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

"We can't give any definitive or official answer"... And that guys do not make rules, emails are answered by PR team. But okay, that will do. --Flutist (talk) 06:24, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Dorn's Use[edit]

I wrote it, I'm deleting it because it's a hypothetical situation. Players can do whatever they want with Dorn outside of the "hide behind breacher wall with salvo gun". This isn't a tactica

Why do you keep putting it back in?

The reason I'm putting it back in is because this is a tactica, as can be seen in the title of the page and it's not a bad idea either. -- Triacom (talk) 23:03, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

I don't know what it is about that paragraph that inspires such skub, but I think it's fair game for a page that is very much tactica (unless it's flat-out wrong). Like the edit page says, "If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, then do not submit it here." Please stop wasting your time. --AssistantWikifag (talk) 22:47, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

So this is where that comment went to... So here I am Triacom, you argument-inspiring shitlord oppressor of the edit history section.

Well maybe if you checked this page any of the other times that I asked you to we might not be here now would we? -- Triacom (talk) 23:17, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

Why the fuck is this is such a skubby deal. If you don't like something you made but other people do, leave it the fuck alone Saladofstones (talk) 06:21, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

I too, am confused as to why tactics are such a bad thing on a tactic article. Unification (talk) 14:07, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps he is ashamed for what he wrote for whatever reason, like, he tried it and that doesn't work? Cringe and stuff. --Flutist (talk) 14:15, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Trying something and finding out it doesn't work would be good justification for removing it. If you look at AssistantWikifag's talk page however you'll see that their main reason for wanting it gone is because they don't like the idea of saying which units characters like Primarchs are good in. They think it'll encourage other people to say X character goes in Y unit because of Z. I'm still not sure why they think that's a bad thing, other than the fact that they still think this isn't a tactics page. -- Triacom (talk) 18:03, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Blackshield Marauders[edit]

So, in the new Age of Darkness Army List, chainaxes give +1 strength. Is it just me, or does this single-handedly make Blackshields much more powerful since Marauders get them stock? Chymeriae option 3 in particular, with the strength bonus, just seem like they could give even Night Lords and Emperor's Children a run for their money in CC. I don't play Blackshields, so I'd like to get other opinions before saying so in the main article.

The +1 Toughness doesn't help all that much if you're up against S5 models or better, especially if they strike before you do, so it doesn't help Chymeriae as much as you'd think because they're all I3. Night Lords still strike first, so do Emperor's Children and the latter are absolutely devastating if they charge you. -- Triacom (talk) 18:29, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
I was talking about the Fear, Fleet, and Rage option. My thinking was that 5 (2 base, +1 for chainaxe and pistol, +2 attacks for Rage) strength 4 attacks on the charge is very good, but making those attacks S5 gives them a real edge on even the hardcore melee Legions.
Oh I see. That just sounds like you're making them into a knockoff version of World Eaters, but without the special units and with Fleet and Fear replacing their special rules (personally I'd take Incarnate Violence and Exhortations of Butchery) or maybe slightly more choppy Night Lords. I'm pretty sure they still wouldn't stand up all that well to Night Lords of Emperor's Children just because both of those have access to Strength increasing AP3-AP2 weapons that strike at Initiative while the Marauders do not (and in the Night Lord's case, theirs doesn't even require them to charge). -- Triacom (talk) 19:28, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
I get where you're coming from. NL's chainglaives are amazing, and if they outnumber the Marauders it's no contest. With Emperor's Children, it all boils down to who gets the charge, I think. In the case of World Eaters, though, trading Incarnate Violence and Exhortations of Butchery for +1 attack, Fleet, and Fear seems like it a matter of preference. However, Dark Angels/Sons of Horus/Word Bearers better bend over,
Another issue with the Marauders vs Emperor's Children is that their melee units should either always have Jump Packs, or they're going to be in Assault vehicles (though in my opinion they're not as good as Jump Packs) and so long as the player using them is smart, those two will practically guarantee getting the charge if they're going to be in combat at all, unless your opponent also has them. Unfortunately the Marauders cannot get Jump Packs so even with fleet they won't be quite as mobile. As for the other three you list here, I believe I can agree there, the extra Attack and Strength gives them an edge in those matchups. -- Triacom (talk) 20:19, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
You have me here; those Jump Packs really are game-changers. I think you're right that while high base attacks and free chainaxes can give Marauders an edge in some cases, Night Lords who outnumber them/Emp's Kids who charge them/Blood Angels anytime ever are better in melee.

Houserules Apocalypse[edit]

The situation with them is way out of hand; I personally have nothing against homerules, but there is no place for them in the main page. We're playing the game written by GW and FW here, if someone don't like the rules given, a small note of "Homerule it" would be enough, so I would like to get rid of them, on the main page at least. Maybe start a Discussion topic for them. What do you think, anons? --Flutist (talk) 18:42, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

I was considering posting the same question... Because you can literally homebrew anything to anything, having "suggestions" for rules here on the tactics page isn't really the place for them, when we should be considering the merits of the rules as they stand. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 18:45, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
I'm in favour of removing them outright. A tactics page should be about the rules that we're presented with, not rules you should add to make them better, that sort of thing could go on the specific page of that specific unit. -- Triacom (talk) 22:19, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, house rules have no place in the tactica.
A discussion section for houserules would be nice, but I am in agreement, no place for them in the article. Unification (talk) 10:27, 18 March 2017 (UTC)
As per everyone else: agreed. Brennonjw (talk) 10:44, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Are Iron Hands really that strong?[edit]

Statistically, Inviolate Armour will save 1-2 Marines from a Tactical squad. Does this really balance out the restrictions of Rigid Tactics and Stand and Fight?

Well, it protects you from both a huge amount of bolter shots and the like thrown in your direction and high-strength shooting, like Battle Cannons, Meltas and other S8 stuff (you DID buy that Apothecary, didn't you?), what's not to like? Rigid Tactics isn't as bad as it seems, provided HQ units are Infantry most of the time. IH also have very nice equipment in form of Cyber-Familiars and quite powerful RoW Head of Gorgon, where every Tank in Reserve gains Outflank (and you nothing prevents you from taking Aegis with Comms-Relay to make sure they appear on turn 2). Yeah, they pale somewhat compared to latest Legions like Space Wolves, Thousand Sons and Blood Angels, but remain extremely capable in right hands. --Flutist (talk) 23:49, 19 March 2017 (UTC)
So long as they can keep their enemy at range the Iron Hands are quite strong, getting very nice buffs and access to very good gear. Gorgons and Immortals are also extremely survivable with their special rules and extra bonuses too. Don't let this have you think they're good everywhere though, they crumble pretty badly against pretty much all the melee legions if those enter combat, and against others that wound on fixed rolls they'll also find themselves struggling. As a quick example for that latter one, Phosphex weapons (especially from a quad launcher) and poison from Death Guard with Mortarion can wreck them, as Mortarion basically gives his army the ability to outright ignore Inviolate Armour (so long as you stick to frag weapons, and why wouldn't you be when the Reaping can make those troops?). -- Triacom (talk) 01:07, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
The trick to Iron Hands is to triage threats. Your marines are extremely resistant to small arms, so focus on weapons that can hurt your precious tanks. On the other hand, anything Poisoned needs to die yesterday. Your units aren't over-specialized per se, it's just that you need to keep them alive so your durability can pay dividends in terms of firepower. If you get forced into melee, you're generally fucked. On the other hand, Outflanking Vindicators are pure awesome, and Gorgon Terminators are undercosted badasses. Apothecaries become well worth their points, and Mechanicum sworn brothers are an underrated asset. Just make sure you remember you aren't invulnerable and play accordingly.

Raven's Talons and Dark Fury are quite good.[edit]

I have no idea why somebody's writing that Raven's Talons and Dark Fury's are bad, as the main weakness with Lightning Claws right now is that they're only AP3. Rending is fantastic on such weapons, and so is Master-crafted (hell, on the Dark Fury's they allow more re-rolls than Preferred Enemy). Dark Fury's are also a steal for how much they cost (most unique assault squads cost more or have worse gear) and they put out more than enough AP2 attacks at initiative to carve their way through whatever Sergeant with Artificer Armour the enemy might have. There are a few things that they're not so good with, such as 2+ save squads, however aside from specific legions you won't find many squads with Artificer Armour (and even then those units will be supplemented by 3+ save ones) and while they do suck against TEQ's, you've got other options for dealing with them. Saying the Dark Fury's can't handle MEQ's in 30k is just ludicrous. It's almost as ludicrous to say that they're always going to lose their Sergeant to Overwatch (as well as their overall effectiveness, who the fuck did you try fighting?) just like it's ludicrous to say grenades got nerfed (they were like that when the new book came out) and then there's the Destroyers comment. This is the main reason I'm just flat-out removing that whole paragraph. Destroyers are worse than Dark Fury's, and to say otherwise is to be telling a bad April Fool's day joke. There is literally nothing that the Destroyers can kill that the Dark Fury's can't kill better. -- Triacom (talk) 02:52, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

  • They can totally carve through 2+ squad without invul on charge due to 2 Attacks base, Furious Charge, I5 and mass-Rending (just ask Gal Vorbak how awesome it is, but those lack basic AP), and even Tartaros may find themselves overwhelmed before they get a chance to lift their Power Weapons. I don't know what's wrong with the guy who wrote that. Yeah, Furies are kinda vulnerable for 30pts models, but since the new book you can join them with Apothecary to mitigate this. --Flutist (talk) 11:18, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Death from the sky is a 40k only[edit]

Sorry i bad explain myself,DFTS explansion rules are wh40k only and Dont affect HH in any way On the FW online site they are shown in "warhammer 40000" section and is listed like "imperial armor death from the sky update",while FW red book seriers "army list" and black book series "campaign book"arent affected from theesr rules change

Anyway you can liberaly use em at your own discrection but they will probably make your game worst affecting heavly many flyers playabilitybecouse they are not intended for Horus heresy

That's a fair point, however using strikethroughs to communicate this is not. If you come across misinformation, you should correct it by removing it and replacing it with relevant info (if there is any). -- Triacom (talk) 04:41, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Time to rewrite shit[edit]

As a preview for the new HH rulebook, Warhammer Community had confirmed that melta bombs are going to be changed somehow and Invisibility will be replaced entirely with the following power:

  • Mind Howl: Warp Charge 2; 12" malediction that sets the WS and BS of all models in the target unit to 1.

So we'll need to rewrite Lorgar's section at the absolute minimum since his main source of cheese is gone. --Newerfag (talk) 16:19, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Agreed, we can at least factor in mindhowl and the grenade changes. we'll have to wait and see if anything else got fancy though
Earth to Newerfag, Lorgar can't take Invisibility for over a year at this moment. But yeah, changes are coming and we still haven't written anything on Omega. --Flutist (talk) 19:29, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
Right, forgot that part. At any rate, it's definitely going to make an impact. --Newerfag (talk) 22:17, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

salamanders special units[edit]

first : your "deathstar" is only one lighting away from footslogging forever,

second : if the enemy isn't braindead, he just send a dreadnought/terminator squad with powerfists and the squad get wrecked like mere terminators

as for the pyroclasts, they already cost a lot with the necessary land raider/flyer/bigger drop pod if they want to see use before turn 3 and can't defend themselves against any dedicated cc unit, shit even a tactical squad with chainswords and powerfist sarge (not even counting LA) can bog down for most of the game.

before you call bullshit on that.

10 tacticals with chainswords and sarge with powerfist against 5 pyroclasts (160 both) : let us assume the pyroclasts get to shoot first ( 8' length for flamer template, so around two shot each if both units are correctly spread) 10*4/6*2/6=2,2 kills now it's tacticals turn first the bolt pistols 8*4/6*0,5*1/6=0,4 wounds, so we'll assume it did nothing next the overwatch (assuming an average of 10 shots) 10*4/6*2/6=2,2 kills now for the close combat, both strikes simultaneously 15*0,5*0,5*1/6=0.625 + the sarge: 4*0,5*5/6=1.66, both give a total of 2.3 kills 6*0,5*0,5*2/6=0.5 the pyroclasts loose, and even if they won't fail their morale test the tactical squad will kill them eventually. give me some rational arguments as to why pyroclasts or firedrakes shouldn't join the trash along with headhunters, lerneans and ravagers.

I'll start with the firedrakes. One of the 2 units in the game with a 3++ makes 'em solid base, even to the point that depending on your enemy you can very easily foot slog safely. BEYOND that, other terminators loose any trade statistically since they don't have a stormshield AND a dreadnought bounces off them as well since the S: 8 fire drakes kill it in a single round of combat and ONLY loose MAYBE 1 terminator, depending on how well their 3++ went.(4 swings, 2 hits, 1.5-ish wounds, then like, .5 wounds after invulns). Add on the fact that fire drakes are WS 5 and they get even better in both situations that you proposed to kill them off. I personally am not a fan of Pyroclast hype, but you're also super simplifying there as well. The melta gives them both flexibility and the ability to punk terminators and vehicles while the flamer lets 'em still threaten infantry. Yeah, if you throw 5 pyroclasts at 10 marines they'll probably not do to well, but that's not what pyroclasts should be aiming at, now is it? Or, what, are you gonna tell me primarchs are trash because they can't solo Reaver titans? Or maybe sicarians are bad because you can't use one to threaten terminators in melee? -Sincerely, a non-Salamander player.


right, so anything the firedrakes can do, a regular sallie terminator squad can do for 100pts less, and come on, 6' s6 melta ? you really think this is a good thing against tanks ? just charge and use meltabombs. they are a symptom of the 40k tactical squad problem : a unit that tries to to two thing at once and fail at both : any expensive tank can just turbo boost away should you try deep-striking them and if you have a transport, it'll cost just as much as the unit. And please i used the tactical squad to show that any proper cc unit would just wreck the pyro in assault, even if you tool them up.
last thing, don't go on a slippery slope fallacy
sincerely, an actual salamanders player --Numeon (talk) 23:45, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
Yeah! Regular termies hit other termies on 3's, have 2 wounds each, and don't eat up elite slots. Oh wait, they don't! Yeah, they are expensive. so are most legion specific terminators. They survive mass low-AP shooting significantly better than normal terminators, hit harder than normal terminators, and they benefit from medicaes and librarians better than normal terminators (specifically biomancy for those slews of buffs). If you wanna get picky they techncially even get 1 more swing than normal terminators. As for Pyroclasts, I already agreed, I don't like them but you're still short selling 'em. YES, compared to dedicated melee units, they will loose. which is normal since they aren't a melee unit. They are, if anything, an anti-vehicle melee unit who can "oh shit" fire at some infantry. and yes, S: 6 melta still reliably pens 12 and glances 13. BUT moving up, melta'ing then charging for melta bombs is a perfectly viable use for them that only 1-2 other squads can similarly do.
Lightning can be countered, I've played my share of games against fuckers with it and managed to keep my Land Raiders up and running in most of them. Covering your Spartan carring a deathstar with Arvus and/or using terrain for protection is not rocket science. The squad of firedrakes with 3++ isn't getting "wrecked" in combat anytime soon, and can reliably mulch similiar deathstars with regular terminators or Dreadnoughts. There are also a lot of things not having S8 even in cc, like Power Axes or Paragon Blades. Now, about Pyroclasts and your example - first, Warden can take Power Fist too, second - how do you have 2 hits per template on regular shooting? Third - meltas. Yeah, a pitiful range of 6", but you have transports for that, and it's not like you were giving them an assault one.--Flutist (talk) 07:38, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Terry Assault Drill in Covenant of Fire[edit]

As a fan of the salamanders and their fluff could someone use Terrax Assault drills, fill them up with pyroclasts, and run it in covenant of fire? The restrictions on covenant of fire says no deep strikers but does the Terrax count as deep striking?

Would be absolutely fluffy, but it has the deep strike rule, the other ones just describe how to carry the deepstrike. So no termite in covenant of fire unless faq'd (that won't happend in this century)--Numeon (talk) 06:31, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Atomantic pavaise[edit]

Could the two people who keep claiming you can get 2++ with the deredeo's pavaise read the latest army list book and not battlescribe or black book V. I'll even provide the page and paragraph : Page 79

    • Atomantic pavaise

This reinforced shield increases the Deredeo's own invulnerable save to 4+ against shooting attacks, and grant friendly infantry models within 3" of the Deredeo's base an invulnerable save of 6+ against shooting or boost an invulnerable save they already possess by +1 (5+ becoming 4+,etc) to a maximum of 3+

Apothecary rule blooper?[edit]

So I'd like to bring something up in the FAQ: "While any model carrying this specialised medical and alchemical gear in a unit is in play, all models with the Legiones Astartes special rule, including any Independent Characters with the Legiones Astartes special rule that have joined the unit, gain the Feel No Pain special rule." RAW this means all your Astartes on the entire battlefield have FnP, because it only calls for the model to be in play and has no restrictions on who gains the FnP rule and who doesn't (only saying that the model has to be in a unit for the effect to apply to everyone). -- Triacom (talk) 06:37, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Sorry but I don't read it like that at all. "While any model carrying this specialised medical and alchemical gear in a unit is in play" so he has to be in play and in a unit. Then "all models with the Legiones Astartes special rule, including any Independent Characters with the Legiones Astartes special rule that have joined the unit, gain the Feel No Pain special rule." note there is no full stop between them it's the same sentence, so anyone that joins the unit that has the model that is in play with the "specialised medical and alchemical gear" gain the FNP. SpikeySam (talk) 13:41, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
Could you point out to me where in that rule it says the effect is restricted to the unit and not 'all Legiones Astartes'? Saying 'including any Independent Characters with the Legiones Astartes special rule that have joined the unit' doesn't mean it only affects the unit because it doesn't change anything before or after its commas, it only means adds a condition to include certain Independent Characters as well. If we were to remove that inclusion (since it doesn't change anything) and focus on non-Independent Characters only the rule would read like this: "While any model carrying this specialised medical and alchemical gear in a unit is in play, all models with the Legiones Astartes special rule, gain the Feel No Pain special rule." -- Triacom (talk) 15:55, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
Sorry but I think you are purposefully misreading it to say what you want it to say. If you want to use this rule in the way you are interpreting it good for you, but I severely doubt any other player will ever let you have one apothecary give the entire army FNP. Tell you what why don't you just email Forgeworld and ask them? I'm betting I already know the answer. -- SpikeySam (talk) 23:47, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
Of course I'm not going to use the rule like that, that's why I'm pointing it out here instead of putting it on the main page. I also did email them before making the topic along with a few other things, I'm still waiting on a reply after my question was redirected to 40k's FAQ team. If you really think I'm misreading it though, then please break it down and explain how it means something else. -- Triacom (talk) 16:01, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Deathstorm Drop Pod rules out of date?[edit]

Quick one. Is the Deathstorm section out of date now? Don't have the book immediately to hand but I think they are the old rules. SpikeySam (talk) 13:45, 7 November 2018 (UTC)

Playtest Rules[edit]

The latest FAQ included playtest rules, should we include them in this Tactica? I notice that user Unification put up a lot of changes for the Battle-Automata legion tactics, but these still aren't "officially" part of the game quite yet, and could be subject to change. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 17:04, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

If you're planning on adding them, I'd say to at least tag the pretest rules as such under their entries. 17:35, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
Beta rules are still unofficial rules (even if they're calling them something different), until they become official we should not implement them on the main page in case they change (though nothing is wrong with referencing them). -- Triacom (talk) 00:26, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
Admittedly I did start adding things before I noticed the line about how they were unofficial (for now) so fair play to undo those changes but I do definitely think they should have bulletpoint under the entry marked with the Playtest Rules: FAQ Feb 19 label. -- Unification (talk) 20:10, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

Moritats are back![edit]

Just wanted to say a big thank you to forge world for fixing the Moritats so that they're actually useful again! Goodbye chain overheat, you will not be missed, here's hoping the rules for them now stay as they are. -- Triacom (talk) 00:18, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

I should probably add that these are in the playtest section which is why I haven't changed the main page but hey, fingers crossed. -- Triacom (talk) 00:22, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

On Warmongers[edit]

Warmongers obviously lend themselves towards Terminators but there's a problem here, since they are forced to buy a Halo with Termie armour they are paying for an invuln save twice- Why would you ever give a Warmonger Termie Armour and why do they obviously lend themselves towards Terminators exactly? This seems like a really bad suggestion to put in their entry. -- Triacom (talk) 21:23, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

Why Breechers?[edit]

Breechers are 15 pt a model and 200 pts base and what you get is a 5++/6++, defensive grenades, and the ability to some special weapons or Land Raider. My problem is that assault marines can grab combat shields for the same invuln for only 15 pts more at base size and 25 pts at max size, that and if you want a tanky group then you can take a 20 man tactical squad with an Apothecary. Another part I dislike is that Legion Rules are utilized more easily to the other troops because they are more mobile without having to deposit 200 pts for a Land Raider, and unless you're going an Iron Hands list I don't see much incentive to run a list like that. I'm not experience with a lot of table play so can someone enlighten me on ways to use these guys? I like to aesthetic and idea behind them but can't find a good way to use them outside of specific rites of war (ie. Stone Gauntlet) and the extra 100-200 points that I would have spent on them could have went somewhere else.

While I do agree that they are overpriced, there are uses for them, and people who use them like them for three things: Hardened Armour, Defensive Grenades and Breaching Charges. You can make saves against templates all day long, even they're AP3 so long as you put them on the Sergeant (2+ with re-rolls tend to do that). You also don't need to run them across the field like Assault Marines, there's plenty of objectives that show up in the midfield that they're better at staying on top of, since the majority of enemies gain no bonuses for charging them and even if Terminators charge them, they can find themselves eating a S8 AP2 small blast, placed however the controlling player wants. They can also harass the enemy while holding objectives using their graviton guns. The only thing Breachers really need is a 25 to 40 point reduction off the base squad. -- Triacom (talk) 06:07, 11 April 2019 (UTC)


On Delegatii not being able to take a Command Squad[edit]

An argument that has been going for a year, spinning out of control into insults, misunderstandings and philosophical arguments of how rules are supposed to work in general. The toxicity level in some places is alarming. TL;DR: both Delegatii and Heralds have access to Command Squads via Rite of Command.

I have a problem with the section regarding Command Squads and the February 2019 FAQ. The current incarnation reads: "Now these can only be taken by Praetors, Primarchs and unique MotL characters that are also your warlord so only one per army, and no longer available to Delegatii and Heralds." In regards to Delegatii, this does not seem correct. If you look at page 23 of the Age of Darkness Army List book, it clearly states under the Delegatus entry "Rite of Command: This Consul has the Master of the Legion special rule (see Legion Praetor entry in this book) and may take a Legion Command Squad (emphasis mine). In addition, the Consul must be the army's Warlord, unless their Legion's Primarch is also taken." The February 2019 FAQ only makes changes to the Command Squad (under which "Retinue" appears) and Terminator Bodyguard entries. It does not change the wording of the existing Legion Delegatus entry. Therefore, I don't see the Legion Delegatus entry being affected (nor would it make sense anyway, rules and fluff-wise, the Delegatus is not only designed to be used in low point games, where Command Squads can make a difference, but is also generally appointed by the Primarch themselves to carry out their Chosen Duty. It would make no sense if they were barred from selecting a Command Squad). --Ambarenya (talk) 00:37, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

The FAQ trumps the book, if the FAQ says the only generic characters who can take them are Praetors, then Delegatii cannot take them. It doesn't matter if it doesn't address the Delegatus entry specifically, they're omitted from a more recent rules change, so they cannot have them. -- Triacom (talk) 00:43, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
The Rite of Command special rule is not affected, since it is a specific rule to the unit. It says clearly that the Delegatus can take a Command Squad. If we look back to the the original phrasing of the book, the Retinue entry still says "A Legion Command Squad may only be chosen as a retinue for a Legion Praetor or Legion special character with the Warlord special rule, and may not be taken as part of an army on their own. ...". The Delegatus entry appears in this same book, a book that omits saying anything about a Delegatus in the Retinue note. Clearly, the Delegatus is an exception to the Command Squad rule by design from the very beginning. If this were not the case, Delegatii would NEVER have been able to take a Command Squad (and in this case, why would it even have been stated as an option in their entry?). Therefore, in the end, the FAQ changes nothing about how the Delegatus works because the new FAQ only added the word "Primarch" to the Retinue rule, presumably because it provides a general grouping for the Primarchs' 18 individual sets of rules and ties the Praetor's Master of the Legion to them. Since the Delegatus was a specific Consul who already had the rule stating to refer to the Praetor Master of the Legion rule, it didn't need anything new. --Ambarenya (talk) 01:15, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
If the Delegatus was an exception the FAQ would say so. Sorry to tell you but by saying that they may only be taken by Praetors (as far as generic characters go) the Delegatus isn't allowed to take them anymore, regardless of what their entry says. -- Triacom (talk)
Bullshit. If Delegatus entry remains unchanged, he still can take them. He can't take Terminators, bikes etc as these options specifically mention Praetor. --95.28.167.165 11:45, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
If the new rule omits him, he cannot take them. The new rules always take precedence over the old, and it very clearly omits him. It's clear as day he's no longer allowed them. -- Triacom (talk) 18:50, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
And what does the new rule say about SW Speaker with the Dead? --95.28.167.165 09:24, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
What about them? -- Triacom (talk) 12:14, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
They can take Deathsworn packs instead of Command Squads. p. 228 Inferno. --95.28.167.165 12:24, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
And? Deathsworn Packs don't have the Retinue rule. -- Triacom (talk) 12:37, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
INSTEAD. You know the meaning of the word? --95.28.167.165 12:46, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
Yeah, and? Deathsworn Packs still don't have the Retinue rule. What's your problem here? -- Triacom (talk) 12:57, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
Speaker with the Dead is not a Praetor. He can still take Command Squads or Deathsworn Packs INSTEAD of those. Jeez. --95.28.167.165 13:02, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
No he cannot take a Command Squad because of the Retinue rule. He can take Deathsworn packs in place of a Command Squad though. -- Triacom (talk) 13:04, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
How he can take Deathsworn in place of a squad he can't take? That's ridiculous. --95.28.167.165 13:10, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
Because they are used in the same role and FoC slot, the only difference is that one of them has the Retinue rule, the other does not. -- Triacom (talk) 13:18, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
Wow, that's one hell of mental gymnastics. Retinue rule can be overwritten by specific rules, like any other rule in the game. Look in the old Age of Darkness army list, as if in the book proper. There isn't any mentions of Delegatus on Command Squad page. Not vice versa though. Or what, people who wrote that were idiots? --95.28.167.165 13:26, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
The Retinue rule isn't overwritten by anything that's not a newer rule, and this is always how the rules have worked. When it gets changed by the FAQ, the only thing that can overwrite it is something in the FAQ because that's the newest version of the rules available. It doesn't matter what it says in the book, if it doesn't say in the FAQ that a Delegatus can take a Command Squad, then they cannot take a Command Squad. If you want to believe the people who wrote the FAQ and/or rules are idiots that's fine by me, after all these were the same people who gave Custodes Misericordia wargear for over a year without any rules, before mentioning in their FAQ that they were never supposed to have them in the first place. These are also the same people that have to frequently correct themselves when they accidentally give characters Relic Blades instead of Paragon Blades, or when they say somebody can temporarily ignore a rule that they never had (and could never have), or when they kept changing the Custodes so that they were finally equipped with guns and melee weapons that actually existed. Proofreading isn't something they're known to do. -- Triacom (talk) 13:36, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
So your position is that Delegatus was never able to take a Command Squad, right? --95.28.167.165 08:33, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
My position is that they were allowed to take a Command Squad until the FAQ changed the retinue rule. I thought that would be pretty clear by now. -- Triacom (talk) 10:22, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
okay, what exactly did the new rule change about Delegatus when compared to the old one? --95.28.167.165 18:20, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
It made it so that Praetors are the only generic characters who can take Command Squads. We've already been over this seen directly above, do you really want to go over it again? -- Triacom (talk) 01:06, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
And as I said, that's bullshit. I'm trying to understand your logic and see none so far. I repeat the question: what exactly did the new rule change, with citation, please? --95.28.167.165 07:56, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
What changed is that the new rule is used above all other rules, because that's how GW's updates work. If the new rule says that only a select few can take a Command Squad, then they're the only ones who can take the Command Squad until they release an update with the other rules stating they're exceptions. You act as if you don't know how their FAQ's work. -- Triacom (talk) 08:32, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
Apparently, it's you who can't figure out how updates work. The rule "Retinue" was updated. It has nothing to do with Delegatus' own special rule overwriting it. Say we completely ignore this. Okay. Please give me definition of "Legion special character with MoL and being Warlord" in new iteration of Retinue. Unique=/=special, to put it out of the way.--95.28.167.165 16:39, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
It has everything to do with it because it did not include any exceptions, which means there are no exceptions. You can never overwrite a new rule with an old rule. If you want to look for a definition of "special characters", you're also not going to find it, which means that Delegatus doesn't fall under that either. -- Triacom (talk) 18:05, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
Following that logic, rulebook must state "unit can't charge when it fired salvo weapons unless it has Relentless USR". Clearly you missed the part about special cases having priority over common ones. It's impossible to talk to you. The discussion is a waste of time. I suggest putting it on vote. --95.28.167.165 22:24, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
If the FAQ stated you cannot charge after firing a salvo weapon, then yes, Relentless would have no effect on it unless it also said what you typed. A vote would be meaningless since you're trying to argue the rules don't apply, and voting on which rules do and don't apply isn't how the game works. If you really want to try and challenge it, you have to email them and wait for a reply. I've done it in the past, you can do it now. -- Triacom (talk) 23:56, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
I have sent a message to ForgeWorld to clear this up. Asking around (and evidence by this other user who you have been corresponding with), there are already quite a few 30k folks that would disagree with your assessment, so the only way to clear this up is to have the original source answer the question. I will post what they respond with. --Ambarenya (talk) 02:02, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
The way I've responded has been to use their policy to apply the rules, which is newer rules always take precedence over older rules. It's fine to ask them questions, but until we get an answer that changes the rule that's how we have to write it. -- Triacom (talk) 03:02, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
I wouldn't be speaking in such a way as to use "policy" to legitimize what you have done here. I don't think your argument holds much water because it smugly dismisses so much of the evidence we have lain forth. Hence, why I want to have ForgeWorld answer the question, because it is apparently the only thing that you will consider as a "valid" interpretation. I agree with the other user, I think you are being extremely unreasonable here. --Ambarenya (talk) 03:25, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
You'd have a point if there was any evidence. Claiming that the FAQ doesn't take precedence over other rules is not evidence, claiming you don't apply the newest rules literally isn't evidence either. A response from them wouldn't even be evidence, it would be a rules change, just like the FAQ is a rules change for a lot of the rules included within it. -- Triacom (talk) 03:49, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
"Two people are telling me I'm not right. But there evidence is not real evidence because I don't like it". Got it. Also, contrary to your view, "new" rules update exactly one rule. Any exceptions that are changed are mentioned, not the other way around.--95.28.167.165 14:34, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
It's not evidence because it's going directly against what the rules say. Doesn't matter how many people think a rule is bad or is written poorly, or has forgotten something, it's still a rule. I also wasn't the person to add that to the main page and I also didn't undo it a few of the times somebody tried to change it, so there's more than one person who's following the rules here. -- Triacom (talk) 19:47, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
I'm returning to this to reiterate that there is nothing that indicates the Delegatus rule is overwritten, and you are mistaken in your argument. Every single person I've played with and discussed this with over the past 2 years (3 US State-wide Heresy groups) have agreed my interpretation is correct. The FAQ trumps nothing because it doesn't reference the Delegatus, it only references the Retinue rule. As stated before: the rulebook text for the Delegatus Command Squad option reads: "Rite of Command: This Consul has the Master of the Legion special rule (see the Legion Praetor entry in this book) and may take a Legion Command Squad.". It spells it out with no ambiguity. It does not matter that the Retinue rule mentions that only Praetors and Special Characters can take them, because the Delegatus is said to specifically be able to take them. Furthermore, note in the main rulebook, it states: "Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain circumstances. If, however, that model has a special rule that makes it immune to Morale checks, then it does not take such checks – the advanced rules take precedence". We observe that the Rite of Command rule only appears in 2 places in the book, the Legion Delegatus entry and the Legion Herald entry (which specifically re-references the Delegatus entry). It does not appear anywhere in the main rulebook, nor in the Legions book. I think it quite obvious that the Retinue rule is subordinated in regards to the Delegatus because the only reason he can take the Command Squad anyways is due to his Rite of Command rule. So the Delegatus' specific rules override the more basic Retinue rule, as the main rulebook describes, the justification for that being that the Retinue rule applies generically to the two types of Command Squads and the units described who usually have the Master of the Legion rule (Praetor, Special Character, Primarch) and the Rite of Command applies only to the Delegatus (and by extension, the Herald). We also could note as a further argument for why the Delegatus rule is a more specific rule and overrides the generic Retinue rule is that even the original entry on Page 27 of the Legiones Astartes rulebook states: "A Legion Command Squad may only be chosen as a retinue for a Legion Praetor or Legion special character with the Warlord special rule, and may not be taken as part of an army on their own. They take up a single Force Organisation chart choice with that Praetor, but do not have to be deployed with them and are treated as a separate unit during the game." -- it doesn't reference a Delegatus either (nor a Primarch). So, unless the book was written to contradict itself from the very beginning (it wasn't), the intention of the Rite of Command rule is provide a specific case where the Retinue rule does not apply because the Delegatus rule spells out in plain words that the unit can take a Command Squad. Retinue is overridden by the Delegatus' Rite of Command. Delegatii can take Command Squads.--Ambarenya (talk) 05:14, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
Unless the people you're playing with are from Forge World's design team, their opinions are irrelevant. Where advanced rules take precedent over basic, contradictory rules, the FAQ outright overwrites rules. If something contradicts the FAQ, the FAQ always gets used. Should Delegates get command squads? Yes, are they allowed them under the current rules? No. -- Triacom (talk) 13:11, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
Oh boy, here we go again. It just proves you don't know how rules updates work. The rule that allow Delegatus to take a Command Squad was not overwritten. --78.107.207.51 14:27, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
A new restriction was put in place, one that does not allow the Delegatus to take a Command Squad. -- Triacom (talk) 14:33, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
No, it wasn't, because the change overwrote a rule that didn't enable Delegatus to take a Command Squad in the first place. --78.107.207.51 16:38, 3 July 2021 (UTC)
And the change is in the FAQ, which takes precedence over the regular rules. -- Triacom (talk) 07:13, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
Yes. And? --128.69.253.100 09:06, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
Assuming you're the same person, or someone who agrees with them, you just fucked up. Now that you've admitted the fAQ takes precedence over the normal rules you no longer have an argument. -- Triacom (talk) 10:34, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
Assuming you're the same Triacom, you've just shown that you have no idea how rules updates work. Moreover, you haven't learn anything since the last time we had that talk. Tell me, when 6th edition changed Fast Skimmers into Flyers and updated their transport rules, were Valkyrie's and Doom Scythe's special rules on disembarking affected?--128.69.253.100 14:27, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
Tell me, was the 6th edition rulebook a main edition rulebook or a FAQ? If you don't think FAQ's override the previous rules, then you don't know how rules updates work. -- Triacom (talk) 23:31, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
Answer the question, will you? --89.179.107.75 16:39, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
The answer to your question is the same answer to mine. -- Triacom (talk) 07:20, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
Exactly. Assuming you're the the same Triacom, you just fucked up. Their SR were not affected despite new transport disembarking rules "taking precedent over". --89.179.107.74 17:26, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
I think you're both fuckwits for arguing this here, but if you seriously think Edition = FAQ, you're legitimately retarded. --2001:8003:1D0D:301:B54E:6D2D:B8C0:AFD3 02:23, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
As the anon said, if you think a new edition is the same as a FAQ, you're just wrong. Those are not remotely the same thing. -- Triacom (talk) 07:15, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
Bullshit. Both "take precedent over" previous rules. --89.179.107.65 14:15, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
And neither of them are like each other. -- Triacom (talk) 18:25, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
And they "take precedent over" previous rules differently because?... And why does FAQ suddenly change game more than a new edition? --89.179.107.65 19:08, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
Because FAQ's for army books take precedence over their army books. This is how FAQ's have worked for over two decades. -- Triacom (talk) 21:10, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
And new edition rulebooks take precedence over previous ones. Take that strawman away and answer the damn question for once. --89.179.107.65 21:54, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
Today I learnt that because oxygen is lighter than water and so is hydrogen, then therefore hydrogen=oxygen. --2001:8003:1D0D:301:AC44:67FB:20C3:7610 04:50, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
Dude, it's not a strawman to point out how the game has worked for over 20 fucking years. FAQ's are not the same as new edition rulebooks and never have been. -- Triacom (talk) 06:42, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
Rules are updated the same way, be it FAQ or new edition. Can't pick and choose. --89.179.107.105 16:40, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
They are not updated the same way. Now you're just lying. -- Triacom (talk) 10:13, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
They are, you're either an idiot or trolling. For a purpose of individual rule, there is no difference if it is changed by a new rulebook or a FAQ. Both are equally mandatory. If there are SR rules tangentially related to this rule or outright overwriting it, they are affected the same way, and it doesn't matter if the rule is changed by FAQ or new edition.--89.179.107.102 11:45, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
No they are not. FAQ's have never been the same as main rulebooks, not in the decades long history of the game. -- Triacom (talk) 18:27, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
Uh-huh, so you advocate one can ignore rule changes in the FAQ or choose to apply them or not.--89.179.107.102 19:05, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
When the fuck did I say anything like that? -- Triacom (talk) 19:08, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
> FAQ's have never been the same as main rulebooks Your own words. While FAQ differs from the rulebook physically, we're talking rules changes here. You're arguing the fact FAQ is "taking precedent over" a rule just as viably and in the same way as a new edition of a rulebook. --89.179.107.102 20:27, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
Where the fuck in there did I say you can choose to ignore rule changes in the FAQ? I never argued that FAQ's take precedent over a rule in the same way as a new edition of a rulebook, I explicitely said the opposite you liar. -- Triacom (talk) 23:48, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
Well, that's the only way I can think it can differ. Care to explain the difference? And by "explain" I mean not "REEEE THAT'S DIFFERENT AND HAS BEEN FOR 20 YEARS".--78.107.207.38 08:04, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
The difference, for the hundredth time, is that the FAQ overrides the rulebooks they are applied to, the core rulebooks do not overwrite the codices that are used alongside them. That is how it's been for over 20 years. -- Triacom (talk) 18:40, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
Then I can proudly conclude you're an idiot and has been for over 20 years. The moment a USR, say, a Psyker, is updated by a rulebook, it instantly overwrites any related rule in codex from previous edition. You couldn't just go on and cast on a Ld test in 7th playing by 6th ed codex. --93.81.206.146 19:27, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
Rulebooks are not FAQ's and never have been. What part of that isn't getting through? Also let's look at this: > The moment a USR, say, a Psyker, is updated by a rulebook, it instantly overwrites any related rule in codex from previous edition. You couldn't just go on and cast on a Ld test in 7th playing by 6th ed codex. THIS IS LITERALLY WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO DO. YOU ARE LITERALLY ARGUING YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO IGNORE RULES UPDATES AND PLAY THE RULES FROM AN EARLIER VERSION. You're such a fucking hypocrite, you're literally arguing for what you say you can't do. -- Triacom (talk) 06:33, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
I never said rulebooks are FAQ. > You're such a fucking hypocrite, you're literally arguing for what you say you can't do It's not me "being a hypocrite", it's you being a dumb-dumb again. You see, when a rule is updated, say, a Skimmer is turned into a Flyer or a 6th ed Psyker is changed to 7th ed, the first thing you do is look at their own corresponding rules and ask the question "Do my old rules contradict any of the new ones?" Doom Scythe transport rules? Fine and dandy. 6th ed Psyker ignoring perils? No problems. Lorgar casting on 3d6 and picking two highest? SR doesn't work. And when a Retinue rule was updated, it didn't have Delegatus in it, because it didn't have Delegatus in it initially. He has his very own special rule called Rite of Command, and it wasn't changed. Your argument may have a shadow of sense if Delegatus was added after Age of Darkness Army List was printed, but no, Retinue and Rite of Command has existed as distinct and different rules that do not contradict each other in the same book since it was first printed. --89.179.107.119 17:17, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
> I never said rulebooks are FAQ. Then what's this? > For a purpose of individual rule, there is no difference if it is changed by a new rulebook or a FAQ. Now let's look at this: > You see, when a rule is updated, say, a Skimmer is turned into a Flyer or a 6th ed Psyker is changed to 7th ed- Once again you're arguing a FAQ is the same thing as a core edition update in that it doesn't replace what's in the army books when FAQ's for their army books absolutely do and have done so for 20 years. > And when a Retinue rule was updated, it didn't have Delegatus in it- Delegatus was in it when the FAQ was updated, so it did have it in it, and Delegatus is therefore not included in the newest rules for who can take a command squad. -- Triacom (talk) 19:23, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
> Then what's this? Oh look, you're once again confusing the form and the meaning! > in that it doesn't replace what's in the army books when FAQ's for their army books absolutely do Ha-ha, I say we are making good progress in learning numbers! That's the third say I explain that this concept is bullshit, because if a rule is updated in a new edition rulebook, new version "take precedence over" the one found in all actual rules, including old army books. Same with FAQ, no questions there. > Delegatus was in it when the FAQ was updated You mean 1.0 as opposed to current 1.1? No, it wasn't. --89.179.107.119 21:55, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
"Oh look, you're once again confusing the form and the meaning!" No, that's what you're doing, just look at this: "if a rule is updated in a new edition rulebook-" Once again you conflate rulebooks with FAQ's. You also say you have no questions about the FAQ rules taking precedent over old rules, while still arguing that isn't the case since the FAQ is what restricts the Command Squad. "You mean 1.0-" No I do not, I mean the current FAQ (1.1), which you know I mean, but you're clearly arguing in bad faith. -- Triacom (talk) 00:43, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
> conflate rulebooks with FAQ's Yeah, I "conflate" them because they both update rules. In the same way, mind it. > while still arguing that isn't the case since the FAQ is what restricts the Command Squad Bullshit. It matters not what restricts a Command Squad. What matters is the way rules are updated, and you still have no clue about it even after 2 people explained it on a level suitable for a preschooler. > I mean the current FAQ (1.1) Delegatus is not included in Retinue rule, and never was, in another words, and somehow it invalidates his own SR. What's wrong with you? --78.107.207.27 08:16, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
"Yeah, I "conflate" them because they both update rules. In the same way, mind it." Except they don't update them in the same way. Thanks for admitting you're wrong though. If you think it's bullshit that the FAQ is what's restricting the command squad, you should try reading it. "Delegatus is not included in Retinue rule, and never was, in another words, and somehow it invalidates his own SR. What's wrong with you?" Nice strawman, I very clearly said the Delegatus was in the book when the book's FAQ was updated, but you're very obviously arguing in bad faith so you're pretending I never said that. -- Triacom (talk) 00:46, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
> Thanks for admitting you're wrong though I only admitted that you're a clueless idiot, hence the quotation marks. You're welcome, I guess. > you should try reading it I did, and there was no word on Rite of Command being changed there. > I very clearly said the Delegatus was in the book when the book's FAQ was updated Uh-huh, and that's precisely what defeats your point completely, because he never had access to a Command Squad via Retinue SR, despite being in the same book. I also clearly see you wrote this:> Delegatus was in it when the FAQ was updated answering to And when a Retinue rule was updated, it didn't have Delegatus in it. Might wanna check your facts on that one. --128.69.253.98 12:29, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
"I only admitted that you're a clueless idiot, hence the quotation marks. You're welcome, I guess." If you don't know what the word "conflate" means, maybe you should look it up. "I did, and there was no word on Rite of Command being changed there." Exactly, and since Retinue was changed and since the FAQ's rules take precedence over the main rulebook, that means their version of Retinue takes precedence over Rite of Command. "Uh-huh, and that's precisely what defeats your point completely, because he never had access to a Command Squad via Retinue SR-" That's not my argument. "answering to And when a Retinue rule was updated, it didn't have Delegatus in it. Might wanna check your facts on that one." You might want to take your own advice, you wrote that Delegatus was not in the red book when Retinue was updated and I corrected you. -- Triacom (talk) 21:31, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
> maybe you should look it up combine (two or more sets of information, texts, ideas, etc.) into one as per Google. Never ever did I say they are one.> since the FAQ's rules take precedence over the main rulebook Wait a minute, both Retinue and Rite of Command are not in the Age of Darkness rulebook! > their version of Retinue takes precedence over Rite of Command And then he asks when did he combine two rules into one... > That's not my argument And you don't even think about it, figures. Maybe you should.> you wrote that Delegatus was not in the red book when Retinue was updated A misunderstanding, I was referring to Retinue SR there. I also wrote previously one COULD advocate for your position IF Delegatus WEREN'T in the book and WAS added later. But he has his own separate SR in the same book.--89.179.107.58 17:24, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
"Never ever did I say they are one." You said there was no difference in how they updated rules, which is treating them the same way. "Wait a minute, both Retinue and Rite of Command are not in the Age of Darkness rulebook!" And? You're doing a whataboutism, FAQ's take precedence over everything and I brought up the main rulebook to demonstrate one of the ways in which they are not the same. "And then he asks when did he combine two rules into one..." Literally not what I'm saying at all. You're claiming the army book of Rite of Command takes precedence over the FAQ's version of Retinue, yet you're not saying you're combining two rules into one you hypocrite. What I'm pointing out is that the opposite is true, the rules in the FAQ take precedence over the army book, not the other way around, and that's how FAQ's have worked for over 20 years. "And you don't even think about it, figures. Maybe you should." Why would I consider a point that's not my argument? Maybe you should try reading what I wrote instead of imagining it. "I also wrote previously one COULD advocate for your position IF Delegatus WEREN'T in the book and WAS added later. But he has his own separate SR in the same book." Which is exactly why you can't argue for him. Looking at the FAQ now though, it seems like we've both missed something as it was updated in the months you weren't replying, and which you haven't mentioned. Retinue was changed in there again, which you can tell because it's now written in Magenta, and now characters who have the Master of the Legion rule who are also the Warlord may take a Command Squad, which includes the Delegatus and Heralds, so Forge World is capable of accounting for those units in the FAQ, unlike what you previously claimed. -- Triacom (talk) 18:16, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
> which is treating them the same way So treating something the same way equals combining it. Got it, another one of your peculiarities. > I brought up the main rulebook to demonstrate one of the ways in which they are not the same Well, that's bullshit, because Rite of Command and Retinue are distinct and different rules. > You're claiming the army book of Rite of Command takes precedence over the FAQ's version of Retinue, yet you're not saying you're combining two rules into one you hypocrite Yes, army book Rite of Command is distinct from Retinue SR and wasn't changed or mentioned in a FAQ. Therefore, it has nothing to do with Retinue. I also explicitly do not combine two rules into one, unlike you. > Why would I consider a point that's not my argument? You could think about your own point, obviously. > and now characters who have the Master of the Legion rule who are also the Warlord may take a Command Squad, which includes the Delegatus and Heralds, so Forge World is capable of accounting for those units in the FAQ, unlike what you previously claimed Wow, that's a new level in hutzpah even for you. It's not "character", it's "Legion special character" in a FAQ.If you want to look for a definition of "special characters", you're also not going to find it, which means that Delegatus doesn't fall under that either That's your own fucking words. Ctrl+F that, because now you're making a point so brazenly denied in the past. As a side note, I'll be gentle and won't even hawk on you for inability to check the dates of both the original argument (started 8th of August, 2019) and FAQ update to 1.1 (11th of February, 2019). We already know numbers are not your thing. --93.81.206.166 16:50, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
"So treating something the same way equals combining it." Treating something the same way means you consider them to be the same, not combining it. "Well, that's bullshit, because Rite of Command and Retinue are distinct and different rules." I never said they weren't, pay attention. "Yes, army book Rite of Command is distinct from Retinue SR and wasn't changed or mentioned in a FAQ. Therefore, it has nothing to do with Retinue." Sure it does, because it used to take precedence over Retinue, and then the FAQ's Retinue took precedence over it. "I also explicitly do not combine two rules into one, unlike you." Except I've never done that either. "You could think about your own point, obviously." I did, that's why I'm not considering that other point that isn't my argument. "Wow, that's a new level in hutzpah even for you. It's not "character", it's "Legion special character" in a FAQ.'" My mistake, I did misread it, so indeed the Delegatus and Heralds cannot take them, thanks for pointing that out and agreeing with me. -- Triacom (talk) 19:05, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
> Treating something the same way means you consider them to be the same No, it obviously doesn't for reasons obvious enough.> I never said they weren't You just roll all access to a Command Squad into a Retinue SR. > because it used to take precedence over Retinue, and then the FAQ's Retinue took precedence over it. That's bullshit for two reasons: first, it has nothing to do with a Retinue, second, it didn't ever took precedence over it, being a distinct and separate rule. > Except I've never done that either. Except you did because somehow Rite of Command "took precedence over" Retinue instead of being a separate rule in you head. > So indeed the Delegatus and Heralds cannot take them They can. > and agreeing with me In your dreams. Didn't manage to wriggle out of lost cause without losing your face, huh? --93.81.206.166 21:15, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
"No, it obviously doesn't for reasons obvious enough." Yes it does. If you treat something to be the same, you consider it to be the same, and you've said many times here that you believe FAQ's and core rulebooks update rules in the same way, even after admitting that wasn't the case when we used the Night Scythe's transport rules as an example. "You just roll all access to a Command Squad into a Retinue SR." Except I didn't, I look at what's allowed in the FAQ, and the FAQ states that only a few characters and special characters have access to them, and Delegatus/Heralds are not among them. You admitted this as well. This does not roll Rite of Command into Retinue, it takes away Rite of Command's ability to let them take Command Squads, that's it. "That's bullshit for two reasons: first, it has nothing to do with a Retinue, second, it didn't ever took precedence over it, being a distinct and separate rule." When two rules are in conflict one always takes precedence over another, and both Retinue and Rite of Command have been in conflict. One always takes precedence, and because FAQ's take precedence over everything else, we know the FAQ's version of Retinue takes precedence over Rite of Command. "Except you did because somehow Rite of Command "took precedence over" Retinue instead of being a separate rule in you head." Rules taking precedence over each other is not combining two rules into one, it's how the game is played and updated. "They can." You pointed out yourself that they cannot. -- Triacom (talk) 03:16, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
> If you treat something to be the same There is a difference between "treating something the same (way)" and "treating something to be the same". > even after admitting that wasn't the case when we used the Night Scythe's transport rules as an example Except not, because rules updates always work the same way. I even explained you how exactly. > the FAQ states that only a few characters and special characters have access to them Retinue rules states. It doesn't cancel Rite of Command. > You admitted this as well The part about Retinue rule being changed? I never denied it to begin with. > it takes away Rite of Command's ability to let them take Command Squads It doesn't unless specifically mentioned, since Delegatus and Herald were never included in Retinue. > When two rules are in conflict There is no conflict.> FAQ's version of Retinue takes precedence over Rite of Command. FAQ's version of one rule takes precedence over another separate rule. The "above" I point you to is right here. > You pointed out yourself that they cannot. I pointed out your hutzpah and your attempts at wriggling out of the tight spot. Stop imagining things, once again. --93.81.206.166 16:47, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
"There is a difference between "treating something the same (way)" and "treating something to be the same"." And you're doing both with the FAQ and core rulebooks. "Except not, because rules updates always work the same way. I even explained you how exactly." No they do not and no you did not. These are both straight up lies. "Retinue rules states. It doesn't cancel Rite of Command." Sure it does, when two rules are in conflict you always use the more recent ones, and since FAQ's are always the most recent updates, you always use them. "It doesn't unless specifically mentioned-" Yes it does, it puts it in conflict with Rite of Command, and since it's more recent it takes precedence. "Delegatus and Herald were never included in Retinue." Exactly why they can't take Command Squads, they weren't included in the FAQ's Retinue rule. "There is no conflict." Sure there is, the two rules are directly opposed to each other in who's allowed Command Squads. "FAQ's version of one rule takes precedence over another separate rule." Yes, because that's how FAQ's work. "The "above" I point you to is right here." Except I'm not combining the rules. "I pointed out your hutzpah and your attempts at wriggling out of the tight spot. Stop imagining things, once again" You pointed out they are not allowed in the units that the FAQ says can take Command Squads. -- Triacom (talk) 18:44, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
> you're doing both with the FAQ and core rulebooks This is beyond retarded. I've explained my position so many times, and yet all you can do is putting up the same strawman. > No they do not Prove it. > no you did not Ctrl+F "Do my old rules contradict any of the new ones?" and go from there. > when two rules are in conflict >they weren't included in the FAQ's Retinue rule FFS, they are not in conflict, Retinue NEVER had anything to do with both Delegatus and Herald while being in the same book! Rite of Command is not "an exception" to Retinue, three people has already told you that! It's more people than you can count to! > Yes, because that's how FAQ's work. It doesn't, because rules are different. Unless specifically stated. > Except I'm not combining the rules. Yes, you do, because the only way Retinue can affect Rite of Command is being rolled into it. > You pointed out they are not allowed in the units Who are "they"? What are you even talking about? --93.81.206.166 21:01, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Your position was to say you were doing both. Even when you explained yourself. "Prove it." Sure, we both know that army books can keep their unique rules even when the main rulebook is updated, and we've discussed that with the Night Scythe transport rules. No book in the history of the game has been able to keep a rule the FAQ changed. There we go, the rules updates work differently. "FFS, they are not in conflict-" Yes they are, Rite of Command in the AoD book says Delegatus can take a Command Squad, however Retinue in the FAQ says only the characters it lists can take a Command Squad, and Delegatus is not among them. The rules are in conflict. "Rite of Command is not "an exception" to Retinue, three people has already told you that!" Quote them. "It doesn't, because rules are different. Unless specifically stated." Retinue in the FAQ specifically states only certain characters can take a Command Squad, and Delegatus is not among them. "Yes, you do, because the only way Retinue can affect Rite of Command is being rolled into it." Then by your logic you're combining Retinue and Rite of Command by claiming Rite of Command takes precedence over the FAQ's Retinue. By your own logic you're doing what you accuse me of doing. "Who are "they"? What are you even talking about?" Scroll up, it's clearly quoted for you. -- Triacom (talk) 05:48, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
> you were doing both I'm tired of you pulling opinions supposed to be mine out of your ass. > There we go, the rules updates work differently Yeah, I got you're speffl at this point and apparently imagined my point for me, so I type it in capitals. INDIVIDUAL RULES CHANGE THE SAME WAY. If Valkyrie's Grav Chute Insertion of 5th ed Codex had became a common SR in 6th ed Rulebook and was changed, it would have been changed the same way as in FAQ. The shit you're talking about is difference between "changing the rule" and "not changing the rule". Night Scythe and Valkyrie were Fast Skimmers, but were turned into a Flyers by 6th ed, because no book in the history of the game has been able to keep a rule that was changed by any sourcebook. They retained their special rules because they did not contradict their new status of Flyers with a Transport SR. > Retinue in the FAQ says only the characters it lists can take a Command Squad Bullshit. There is no "only" there. It doesn't preclude any other rule allowing to take a Command Squad from working. It doesn't list Speaker of the Dead either. > The rules are in conflict Any two individual rules that give you same rerolls are in conflict too, right? Master-Crafted change will stop Hatred working? Or is it the other way? > Quote them. The February 2019 FAQ only makes changes to the Command Squad (under which "Retinue" appears) and Terminator Bodyguard entries. It does not change the wording of the existing Legion Delegatus entry. Therefore, I don't see the Legion Delegatus entry being affected That's Ambarenya They don't contradict. It's two rules that provide the same benefit of taking a Command Squad. That's Flutist. Would you like to receive a citation from me? Are you impudent or retarded enough? > Retinue in the FAQ specifically states only certain characters There is no word "only". You pulled it out of your ass.> you're combining Retinue and Rite of Command by claiming Rite of Command takes precedence over the FAQ's Retinue No, I'm not a dumb-dumb and can differentiate between two individual rules. Rite of Command does not takes precedence over anything because there is no contradiction to begin with. > Scroll up, it's clearly quoted for you No, it's not. That sentence is messy enough to give an English teacher a stroke and makes no sence. --93.81.206.166 20:13, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
"Bullshit. There is no "only" there." You know what? I'm going to give you what you want and concede, because you are correct and there is no 'only' there. As a result, I'll change the main page back to your edit and admit that I was wrong in the summary. I was also going to write more about how you lied about what your point was (your point was that FAQ's and core rulebooks work the same way, not that Individual Rules change the same way) but I think we can skip that since it's now irrelevant. -- Triacom (talk) 05:56, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Oh, and I just LOVE the strawman you put up. "Hurr-durr, you say that FAQ doesn't upgrade the rule it refers to!" --89.179.107.75 16:42, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

That's literally what's being said, but just change "upgrade" to "take precedent over". It's not a strawman to say what's actually being said. -- Triacom (talk) 07:20, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
Except there is no new rule to "take precedent over" Delegatii SR enabling him to take a Command Squad. --89.179.107.74 17:26, 14 July 2021 (UTC)
Yes there is, it's called "Retinue". Funny how you claim to play the game yet you don't even know what the rule was called in the LA rulebook or the FAQ. -- Triacom (talk) 07:15, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
No, there is isn't, because Delegatus has his own rule called "Rite of Command". Funny how you claim to play the game yet you don't even know what the rule was called in the Legiones Astartes Age of Darkness Army List, and that it's separate from Retinue. --89.179.107.65 14:15, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
Yes there is. The rules being separate from Retinue is irrelevant since the FAQ's rule takes precedence, since that's how FAQ's work. Funny how you claim to play the game yet you don't even seem to know what a FAQ is. -- Triacom (talk) 18:25, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
No, there isn't. Rules being separate is a big fucking thing, since that's how any rule updates work, be they in FAQ or in new edition. Funny how you claim to play the game yet don't know basic things. --89.179.107.65 19:08, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
It's how every rules update in the history of 40k has worked. Army books take precedence over main books, FAQ's take precedence over them. That's literally how the game has worked since they started doing FAQ's. -- Triacom (talk) 21:10, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
Same strawman. Every time I talk to you I really don't know if you're trolling me or just being an idiot. One more time: how's FAQ updating a Retinue SR affects Rite of Command SR? --89.179.107.65 21:54, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
Because FAQ's take precedence over preceding rules. It's not a strawman to point this out, and by now I'm not sure you even know what a strawman is. -- Triacom (talk) 06:42, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
New rules over old rules, not a single soul argues that (and you're trying to present they do, ergo, a strawman). Now stop wriggling and start actually answering simple questions: why weren't transport rules for the Valkyrie and Doom Scythe dropped when the corresponding rules were "taken precedent over"? How's FAQ changing a Retinue SR, a distinct and different rule from Rite of Command, affect Rite of Command SR, a distinct and different rule from Retinue? If your answer to the first one is "well because new edition upgrades rules differently to a FAQ" - what is that difference? --89.179.107.105 16:40, 16 July 2021 (UTC)
You literally are arguing old rules over new rules. The reason main rulebooks don't override the army books and FAQ's do is because that's how the main rulebooks and FAQ's work and have worked for over 20 years. They are not the same thing, and I don't know why you're pretending they are unless you're just desperately grasping at straws. That anon summed it up well when you falsely equivalated the main rulebook and FAQ by using hydrogen and oxygen as an example. -- Triacom (talk) 10:13, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
Anon is an idiot. I can give you a better example - climb on the roof, start throwing shit down, and tell me if some of that disobeys Newton's law of universal gravitation. > The reason main rulebooks don't override the army books and FAQ's do is because that's how the main rulebooks and FAQ's work and have worked for over 20 years Load of bullshit. When some joke of a writer changed Volkite Demi-culverin from Heavy 5 to Heavy 4 in AoD Rulebook, it instantly made profile found in Crusade Imperialis wrong. Now, care to actually start answering those questions I asked before? --89.179.107.102 11:45, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
That analogy makes no sense at all. The AoD book replaced the CI rulebook, it was not a FAQ. FAQ's have been different from rulebook updates since their inception. -- Triacom (talk) 18:27, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
Stop wriggling, answer the questions. --89.179.107.102 19:05, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
I did, scroll up. -- Triacom (talk) 19:08, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
No, you didn't. Try to count questions asked and "answered" with your fingers. --89.179.107.102 20:27, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
If you think I didn't answer your question then you don't even remember what your question is. I very clearly answered it. -- Triacom (talk) 23:48, 17 July 2021 (UTC)
Three does not equal one. That's kindergarten level concepts we're talking about. --78.107.207.38 08:04, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
If you're still learning that then I can understand why you don't remember how I answered your question. You probably don't even remember what your question is. -- Triacom (talk) 18:40, 18 July 2021 (UTC)
Oh, I can count to three, and it seems too hard of a concept for you. --93.81.206.146 19:27, 19 July 2021 (UTC)
Are you sure? Because you seem to have a very hard time understanding what a FAQ is and how it's different to a rulebook. -- Triacom (talk) 06:33, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
I know they are different things. I also know they upgrade rules the same way and are equally mandatory. The concept is harder than finger-counting, but I believe in you. --89.179.107.119 17:17, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
No, you do not know, because they do not "upgrade rules the same way". You've spent this entire argument arguing that you can ignore the FAQ (while baselessly accusing me of ignoring the FAQ), so you do not know they are mandatory either. -- Triacom (talk) 19:23, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
Nah, it's just you and your strange delusions of how FAQs work, fusing distinct and different rules together without stating the fact and such. Need I remind you that your point of view is actually in minority here, losing popular support vote by one-third of electorate that actually bothered to show? --89.179.107.119 21:55, 20 July 2021 (UTC)
It's not a delusion, it's the company's stance. My 'opinion' is that FAQ's work the same way they've always worked. What's delusional is to keep likening them to core rulebook updates when they do not work like that. Incidentally in this recent argument you've been in the minority, you're arguing against me and some anon who called you retarded when you claimed FAQ's worked like core rulebook updates. -- Triacom (talk) 00:43, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
> It's not a delusion It is, because FAQs do not merge different and distinct rules together, and never did, without explicit mention. > is to keep likening them to core rulebook updates when they do not work like that I haven't heard any arguments for that beside incoherent reeing, btw. > you're arguing against me and some anon I don't care. What matters is an ability of Delegatus to take a Command Squad. 2 vs 1 on that, and that one can't even count using their fingers. --78.107.207.27 08:16, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
"It is, because FAQs do not merge different and distinct rules together, and never did, without explicit mention." When did I say they did? "I haven't heard any arguments for that beside incoherent reeing, btw." Then you have not read a single FAQ. You have no evidence they work as you say, and whenever it's pointed out that FAQ's take precedence over rulebooks you plug your fingers in your ears. "I don't care. What matters is an ability of Delegatus to take a Command Squad. 2 vs 1 on that, and that one can't even count using their fingers." You literally admitted you were arguing against me and an anon, and now you're pretending that anon doesn't exist in the same sentence. Amazing. -- Triacom (talk) 00:46, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
> When did I say they did? I dunno, maybe when you started arguing that Rite of Command and Retinue are somehow the same rule, affected by Retinue change in FAQ, and hence Delegatus has no Command Squad. > You have no evidence they work as you say Wanna some tea out of Russell's teapot while I search for something that proves that, indeed, all rules updates are equally valid? > FAQ's take precedence over rulebooks The newest update takes precedence, dummy. That's the fourth time we come around to this, careful, digits on one hand are running out! > and now you're pretending that anon doesn't exist Anon didn't support your misguided opinion of Delegatus not being able to take a Command Squad. Would you please stop imagining things? --128.69.253.98 12:29, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
"I dunno, maybe when you started arguing that Rite of Command and Retinue are somehow the same rule-" Where? "Wanna some tea out of Russell's teapot while I search for something that proves that, indeed, all rules updates are equally valid?" Prove that FAQ's for the army books and main rulebooks update the rules in the army books in the same way. Oh wait you can't and argued that's not what happens earlier. "The newest update takes precedence, dummy." We've already gone over how that isn't the case using the Night Scythe as an example. FAQ's take precedence over everything else. Also if you believe the newest rules take precedence, then you just lost your own argument. "Anon didn't support your misguided opinion of Delegatus not being able to take a Command Squad." Wow, you've got the goalpost on wheels. The anon argued against your opinion of the FAQ, showing how it was wrong. That's two people against you. -- Triacom (talk) 21:31, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
> Where? Look above. > Prove that FAQ's for the army books and main rulebooks update the rules in the army books in the same way Easy - they do because it's the default way of how things work. Occam's razor and all that.> argued that's not what happens earlier Nah, it's you being a dumb-dumb yet again. > how that isn't the case using the Night Scythe as an example Bullshit, because they became Flyers from Fast Skimmers. > then you just lost your own argument See the part about mixing two distinct and different SR into one again. > you've got the goalpost on wheels Ha-ha, sure, buddy. If you just stop being an ass and admit Delegatus can take a Command Squad, I'll happily agree there are some hidden things obscured from mortals that make rules upgrades different when featured in different documents, you squirming snake. --89.179.107.58 17:24, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
"Look above." Where? "Easy - they do because it's the default way of how things work." Prove it. "Nah, it's you being a dumb-dumb yet again." Nice, becuase throwing insults is easier than having an argument. "Bullshit, because they became Flyers from Fast Skimmers." Yet their transport rules remained the same. "See the part about mixing two distinct and different SR into one again." You mean the part where I didn't do that? "Ha-ha, sure, buddy. If you just stop being an ass and admit Delegatus can take a Command Squad-" As of the current FAQ they can, since the FAQ was changed again in the months you hadn't been replying and neither of us seemed to notice. You can tell Retinue was altered since the last FAQ because Retinue is now written in magenta, and now every character who has Master of the Legion and is the Warlord can take a Command Squad, which includes Delegatus and Heralds (whereas before it said just Praetors and Primarchs). It seems like Forge World certainly is capable of including those units in the entry if they're meant to have them, exactly like I've been saying all along. -- Triacom (talk) 18:16, 26 July 2021 (UTC)
> Where? Look above. > Prove it. It is so and has been for 20 years. > becuase throwing insults is easier than having an argument Well, you keep imagining things and making absurd statements for what I did and didn't argue for instead of actually using your head for a second. > Yet their transport rules remained the same. Now we're getting somewhere! Their basic rules as transports changed, but their SRs did not contradict the new basic rules, therefore remaining valid. > As of the current FAQ they can Well, see above, but I'll just take that acknowledgment and waltz to the main page.--93.81.206.166 16:50, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
"Look above." Where? "It is so and has been for 20 years." Prove it. "Well, you keep imagining things and making absurd statements for what I did and didn't argue for instead of actually using your head for a second." No, that's what you've been doing, that's why I have to constantly correct you for going off-track and attacking points I'm not making. "Now we're getting somewhere! Their basic rules as transports changed, but their SRs did not contradict the new basic rules, therefore remaining valid." Great, glad we can both agree that FAQ's and the main rulebooks are not the same and it's absurd to pretend they are. "Well, see above, but I'll just take that acknowledgment and waltz to the main page." See above in that you pointed out I misread the FAQ and agreed the FAQ does not allow Delegatus and Heralds to take them. -- Triacom (talk) 19:05, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
> Where? Above. > Prove it. Prove otherwise. > correct you for going off-track Your lack of creative thinking is a known problem, yes. > attacking points I'm not making Lack of imagination, however, is not. > FAQ's and the main rulebooks are not the same Of course they are not. They just upgrade the rules the same way. > agreed the FAQ does not allow Delegatus and Heralds to take them Nah, it's you just being a dumb-dumb again. --93.81.206.166 21:15, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
"Above." Where? Oh right, you can't say where, because you lied. "Prove otherwise." Now you're asking me to prove a negative, even though you know that's impossible and a fallacy. "Your lack of creative thinking is a known problem, yes." It's not 'creative thinking' to imagine what somebody else is saying because you have no argument. "Lack of imagination, however, is not." Thank you for admitting you're attacking points I'm not making. "Of course they are not. They just upgrade the rules the same way." No they do not. Here you go again, making a false claim. If they updated rules in the same way then the army books for the FAQ's would override the FAQ's. "Nah, it's you just being a dumb-dumb again." You literally admitted it above. -- Triacom (talk) 03:16, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
> you can't say where, because you lied I specifically marked it down for dumb-dumbs this time. > Now you're asking me to prove a negative, even though you know that's impossible and a fallacy On the contrary: all rules updates affecting the game in the same way is default. > to imagine what somebody else is saying because you have no argument To react to every "what if" with "REEEE I DIDN'T SAY THAT" certainly is. > Thank you for admitting you're attacking points I'm not making. Will you please stop imagining things?> the army books for the FAQ's would override the FAQ's FAQs have their own army books now? Wow, I didn't know that.> You literally admitted it above You're hallucinating at this point. --93.81.206.166 16:47, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
"I specifically marked it down for dumb-dumbs this time." You claimed I combined rules and yet are unable to show it, meaning you lied. "On the contrary: all rules updates affecting the game in the same way is default." Prove it. Oh right, you can't, because if that were true then the Night Scythe's transport rules would've been changed with the new edition. "To react to every "what if" with "REEEE I DIDN'T SAY THAT" certainly is." So now you're admitting you imagined what I was saying instead of replying to what I actually said? I'm not debating "what if" hypotheticals of arguments I never made, I'm talking about how the rules work. "Will you please stop imagining things?" You literally admitted it by saying you were discussing "what if's" that I never said. "FAQs have their own army books now?" Yes, some FAQ's belong to army books, and some FAQ's belong to core rulebooks. How new are you at this? -- Triacom (talk) 18:44, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
> and yet are unable to show it See above. > because if that were true then the Night Scythe's transport rules would've been changed with the new edition They were, you dumb-dumb. It's the SPECIAL rules that didn't change. And I even explained why. > you're admitting you imagined what I was saying >you were discussing "what if's" that I never said No, I described you the situation in which your logic could be valid, and explained the difference between it and the the one on hands. > Yes, some FAQ's belong to army books, and some FAQ's belong to core rulebooks Then what were you trying to say initially, in English instead of gibberish, please? --93.81.206.166 21:01, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
"See above." See? Proof you're not able to show it. "They were, you dumb-dumb." No they were not. The Night Scythe kept its unique transport rules. "No, I described you the situation in which your logic could be valid-" No you didn't, you made up something I never said and then responded to it as if I said it. "Then what were you trying to say initially, in English instead of gibberish, please?" I'll dumb it down for you since you're obviously having trouble with basic concepts: as a whole, core rulebooks do not override special rules in army books. If FAQ's were like you claim they are, and worked like core rulebooks and updated in the same way, then you would ignore any changes they mentioned in regards to special rules, since army book special rules are generally kept when core rulebooks are updated. -- Triacom (talk) 05:48, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
> Proof you're not able to show it Proof you can't read. Those issues just keep piling. > The Night Scythe kept its unique transport rules. Only those parts that were unique to it, aka special rules. What a hard concept, basic rules and special rules on top of that, right? Wouldn't expect someone who can't count to three to understand though. > No you didn't, you made up something I never said and then responded to it as if I said it Or you were too stupid to understand a concept and made up my point for me. > army book special rules are generally kept when core rulebooks are updated Not unless they are overwritten, in which case they change just the same way. As I've already said a thousand times.--93.81.206.166 20:13, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
"Proof you can't read. Those issues just keep piling." Perhaps if you didn't keep lying about what I said and just focused on what was written in the FAQ we could've come to the end of this argument and I'd have conceded much earlier. -- Triacom (talk) 05:56, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

You are both not very bright and have too much free time. As for the matter at hand, anon is right for the wrong reason: unless a rule is changed or removed, it continues to function. Rite of Command was not changed and, RAW and arguably RAI, continues to function. --Flutist (talk) 09:31, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

"Wrong reason" my ass, it was the point from the beginning.--93.81.206.166 16:47, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Oh really? Then I'm sure it's there, buried somewhere under a mountain of "dumb-dumbs", "retards" and philosophical, nay, theological arguments of exact ways the rules are updated. --Flutist (talk) 09:13, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
You're welcome to talk sense into him the way you see fit, smartass. Go ahead and try to prove something to a person with a manic idea of two rules contradicting each other. What if they clearly don't, and everyone says so? Well, fuck them! I'm sure you will succeed where I failed. --93.81.206.166 20:13, 29 July 2021 (UTC)
If you want to write that you can talk it over with your opponent on the main page I'll settle for that, but the anon is wrong in that the rules directly contradict one another, and when that happens you use the most recent update, which in this case is the FAQ. -- Triacom (talk) 18:44, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
They don't contradict. It's two rules that provide the same benefit of taking a Command Squad. However, if it is what it takes to make both of you stop flooding my watchlist notifications, I'll change the wording on the page to something similar to SA Command Squad banner. --Flutist (talk) 09:13, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Allies in the Dark Angels page[edit]

There has been an edit war happening in the Allies part of the Dark Angels Legion page. The problem seems to be mostly with the text, which seems bloated,not really useful for tactics and seems to go way overboard being edgy and using memes.

  • Oddly for a loyalist army. You have the least amount of Sworn Brothers. A staggering amount of one, excluding Agents of the Emperor. Even your buddies from the Imperium Secundus are Fellow Warriors at best. Don't even think about using Space Wolves. As they didn't become "friends" until after the Siege of Terra and are designated by the "Emperor's Command". They could make some barely decent cannon fodder because of this. So you could treat them the same way Iron Warriors uses the Penal Legions they get from Imperial Army, i.e. meatshields who go first.(Isn't that the purpose of those furfags anyways?)

If you look at other Legion pages, it doesn't ever start with an introduction and just cut to each different Sworn Brothers that can ally with the Legion. It would be better if the page stayed similar to others, as it make it less bloated. - Makhaon, 14 May 2020

Predators, Flamestorm Cannons and Flamers[edit]

If I'm reading the new rules right, vehicles have relentless and may only snapfire their weapons if they move 6-12". Since all flamer weapons are assault weapons, surely this means you shoot them normally even if you go fast, just like you would with a Baal Predator?

No, flamer weapons cannot be snap-shot at all, and the vehicle rules specifically override relentless. -- Triacom (talk) 08:49, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Orphaned Word Bearers[edit]

Is it just me, or are Word Bearers with the Orphans of Betrayal Rite of War really good? You can stack so many buffs on them, giving them Dark Channelling, plus FnP (4+) in challenges, plus Preferred Enemy/Zealot (if you got +1S on a squad instead of Zealot) plus whatever buff/debuff you got from Biomancy/Telepathy or Daemonology in the case of your Daemon troops. Orphans of Betrayal are also one of the few ways you can buff Gal Vorbak, and under it the Dark Martyr goes from taking 2.2 wounds from a fully decked out Praetor (using a Power Fist) to 1.1 wounds. This also means the Dark Martyr with a Power Fist will statistically kill that fully decked out Praetor in only 2 rounds, while only taking 2 wounds himself. Even if your opponent declines the challenge to deny you the FnP bonus that still means they lose out on their most expensive fighters. As far as other squads go, Assault Squads with Dark Channelling and the challenge FnP stack up pretty well against melee legions, even units that have AP 2 at initiative usually cannot kill the unit champions quickly enough. Even if a Legio Custodes Guard charges an assault squad, statistically they won't be able to kill the unit champion in a challenge. If the Squad gets Zealot instead of +1 Strength then their overall damage output is very comparable to melee focused legions, even before factoring in the FnP bonus, and the bonuses from Cut Them Down and True Believers. I'd also like to point out that there are many Legions and characters that are forced to issue Challenges (and nobody likes seeing their characters hide in the back) and so this bonus comes up quite a lot. -- Triacom (talk) 05:50, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

If you had read not even the Age of Darkness Legions book, but this very article, you would have known ALL Word Bearers are Traitors. It's in their LA. If you want to play loyal WB, welcome to the Legiones Astartes Crusade Army List, page 80, Unlisted Legions. --95.28.160.96 16:36, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
If you had read even the Legiones Astartes Age of Darkness Army List book, you'd have noticed that having Traitor allegiance does not disqualify you from this Rite of War. It doesn't matter if they're hard-locked into having Traitor allegiance, being a Loyalist is not one of the conditions for getting the RoW. -- Triacom (talk) 17:10, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Except all rules for Word Bearers are traitor-only. Directly contradictory to point 2 of Orphaned Sons limitations. --95.28.160.96 21:27, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Wrong, all Word Bearers must be Traitor aligned: "using the rules presented here they may only be part of Traitor faction armies." As written, Traitor faction armies are not barred from taking Orphans of Betrayal, they are only barred from taking units individually listed as "Traitors only" and the WB don't have that for any of their units. Being Traitor aligned is different to taking units that can only be taken in a Traitors only force. As an example, Traitor World Eaters (so you could get Blood Madness) can take this RoW so long as they don't use Red Butchers, or any unique characters. -- Triacom (talk) 21:58, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
You're making a mistake. Point 2 of Orphans of Betrayal limitations: "The detachment may not any units marked as only available to a Traitor army". Word Bearers Legiones Astartes: "using the rules presented here they may only be a part of Traitor faction army". It includes all units with LA (WB) as written in Age of Darkness Legions. You can take Sons Horus or whatnot in that RoW, I don't care, they don't have that rule in their LA. You can even have loyal Word Bearers - Legiones Astartes Crusade Army List, page 80, Unlisted Legions. No True Believers or loyal Gal Vorbak FFS. --95.28.160.96 17:48, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
You're the one making the mistake, choosing to be traitor aligned does not mean you are using units only available to a traitor army. That only happens if you use units that explicitly state they can only be taken by traitor armies in their unit entries (As I already went over, traitor World Eaters can take this RoW so long as they don't use unique characters or Red Butchers). As written the rule discriminates against units, not legions and in fact it allows Word Bearers by stating them as one of the Legions that can take it. "No True Believers or loyal Gal Vorbak FFS." Please pay attention, I've already gone over this: you do not need to have Loyalist alignment to use this RoW. If you really think it says traitor aligned armies cannot use it, then show me where it says that. -- Triacom (talk) 17:55, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

> may not take any units marked as only available to a Traitor army > may only be a part of Traitor faction army It couldn't be clearer than that. It's not about "traitor aligned armies", it's about Word Bearers specifically. --95.28.160.96 18:41, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Got a newsflash for you, armies and units... are different things. Restrictions placed on one do not carry over to the other. That's why Traitor armies can take that RoW, and that's why there's no issue with Word Bearers taking it. If you really don't think they should be able to take it, then why does the RoW itself explicitly state that Word Bearers Warlords can use it? -- Triacom (talk) 18:47, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
All UNITS of with LA (WB) with True Believers etc are marked as only available to a Traitor army. All their Unique units, including Gal Vorbak, are marked as only available to a Traitor army, by their LA. You may start guessing why the fuck Erebus or Lorgar do not have "traitor-only" note on their individual profiles. Sure, you can take that RoW using loyal Word Bearers rules. Unlisted legions. --95.28.160.96 18:57, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
Wrong, Word Bearers must always be Traitors aligned: "using the rules presented here they (meaning the Word Bearers Legion rules) may only be a part of a Traitor faction army." You are inferring this means that all Word Bearers have each individual unit marked as "they can only be taken by traitors" when that is not the case. The alignment you choose and the units you use are different things, and even the Age of Darkness rulebook addresses this by giving steps for making an army on page 128. I'll quote it for you:
  • "The first step in assembling an army is to decide on its Allegiance, of which there are two to choose from: Loyalist or Traitor."
"An army must consist entirely of models with the same Allegiance. Most units do not have an Allegiance chosen for their Army List entry, in these cases the Allegiance chosen for the army determines the Allegiance for these units."
In short, Gal Vorbak, Ashen Circle and every other Word Bearers unit has no Allegiance until you choose to play Traitors. This is not normally an issue since your Allegiance will always be Traitor (or if you play Loyalist Alpha Legion, who use the exact same loophole to get Loyalist Gal Vorbak and Loyalist Mhara Gal Tainted Dreadnoughts), but aside from that there are no restrictions, and it also means none of their units have the "Traitors only" flag that other Legions have since all of them are technically unaligned from the start. The rules do not work like how you think they do because the rulebook itself separates the Allegiance from the armies (AKA every unit is unaligned until you say it isn't, unless they have a pre-set alignment). In short, the only thing you need to do to fill the RoW's conditions are to choose one of the listed Warlords (Word Bearers are eligible) and do not choose any units that already have a pre-set alignment to Traitor (and none of the Word Bearer units are). If you still think that Allegiance and units are the same thing despite the core book stating they're not, then tell me, where in the Rite of War does it say you cannot use it with Traitor aligned armies? You need to find and follow the rules to the letter if you want to prove Word Bearers cannot take the RoW, making inferences is not good enough. -- Triacom (talk) 19:22, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
> You are inferring this means that all Word Bearers have each individual unit marked as "they can only be taken by traitors" when that is not the case This is exactly the case, no matter how you twist it. Every Word Bearer has Allegiance hard-written into their Legion rules, because Faction is just an old term for Allegiance (same p.128 of the Rulebook). It's not only about their LA, it's about all their rules in the book. Each and every Word Bearer datasheet. This can't be hand-waved the way you're doing it. It's not a "loophole", it's your deliberate choice not to read the rules presented to you both RAW and RAI. --95.28.160.96 20:37, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
Since you still don't get it I'll try explaining it again in simpler terms: All Word Bearers armies must be Traitor aligned, however all Word Bearers units are unaligned. This means if you use an army that has access to Word Bearers units but isn't using the Word Bearers army rules, then you can choose for unaligned Word Bearers units to be Loyalists. In practice this actually does happen, because the Alpha Legion can be Loyalists, and their Rite of War allows them to buy any unit from any other Legion so long as that specific unit doesn't have a different alignment on the unit sheet (as of the Age of Darkness core rules, since you cannot include any mixed alignments). This means Loyalist Alpha Legion cannot buy Red Butchers, but they can buy Gal Vorbak and Mhara Gal Dreadnoughts, and they both become Loyalists. This also means that Word Bearers units are by definition not "Traitors only" units, because Loyalists can use them as Loyalists, and you are wrong for claiming they are a "Traitors only" unit. You really should read up on the rules before you criticise other people on them, especially when you're saying units that can be given the Loyalist allegiance are "Traitor only". Also, if you really think they're ineligible for the RoW, then why does the RoW say they can take it? -- Triacom (talk) 20:44, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
Oh, I get it. I understood it first time quite clearly, thankyouverymuch. > This also means that Word Bearers units are by definition not "Traitors only" units Now go reread what I wrote about that small note of "rules presented here" referring to all WB rules in the book, not only LA rules themselves. Suddenly all the inconsistencies of loyal Alpha Legion using Gal Vorbak and Mhara Gal vaporize. Giving each WB entry "traitor-only" mark would be the very definition of tautology. > why does the RoW say they can take it Copy/paste approach of FW editing. And you can take loyal Word Bearers using Unlisted Legions, how many time should I repeat that? --95.28.160.96 21:08, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
The part where it says "presented here" is referring to the Legion rules, not the unit entries. "Now go reread what I wrote about that small note of "rules presented here" referring to all WB rules in the book, not only LA rules themselves." How can I read that in the book when it's not in the book? The book only dictates the alignment the player chooses, it does not dictate the alignment of the units, as defined by the AoD core rules. "Suddenly all the inconsistencies of loyal Alpha Legion using Gal Vorbak and Mhara Gal vaporize." Except they don't, because those units are explicitly defined as "unaligned units" according to the core rules. You are literally arguing against what the core rulebook says. "Copy/paste approach of FW editing." Except they didn't copy it from anywhere, so that answer doesn't work. "And you can take loyal Word Bearers using Unlisted Legions, how many time should I repeat that?" I've been ignoring this so far because you're clearly ignorant, but that isn't how that works: "Unlisted Legions: If you are using this army list to represent a Legion which does not yet have its own unique Legiones Astartes rule, you may instead add either the Stubborn or Furious Charge special rule to the standard provisions of this rule in the interim." That's from page 122 of the Legiones Astartes Age of Darkness Army List, the Crusade Legions book is out of date and is no longer usable without your opponent's permission. Since the Word Bearers have unique rules, you cannot use these to represent them. -- Triacom (talk) 21:20, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
Oh, and why +1 S from Dark Channeling doesn't modify models' profile? I asked FW on Facebook, they said it does. --95.28.160.96 16:43, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Dark Channelling with a fist makes you S9, I could've sworn a previous edition had it so that stats increased before a battle modified the characteristics of the unit, but if it was true then it isn't true now. -- Triacom (talk) 17:10, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Citation needed. Since when +1 S does not modify the profile? --95.28.160.96 21:27, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Since the Age of Darkness Rulebook came out and added the following on page 14: " Multiple Modifiers: If a model has a combination of rules or wargear which modify a characteristic, first apply any multiples, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values. For example, if a model with Strength 4 has both '+1 Strength' and 'double Strength', its final Strength will be 9 (4x2=8, 8+1=9)." Since Dark Channelling gives +1 Strength, it comes to 9 using these rules since it doesn't say it changes their Strength to 5. -- Triacom (talk) 21:58, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
By the way, if you have a screencap where you ask them if Dark Channelling makes them S5 (10 with a fist) please share it. I would love for that to be the case, otherwise you need to rely on Rad Grenades (from Forge Lords/Techmarines or Magos Primes/Reductors) or the Rad Furnace (from Scyllax) or Enfeeble (Burning Lore) to weaken Marines and Custodes enough to instant-kill them with boosted power axes. If you do manage to lower their Toughness however, a 10-man assault squad with 3 axes and a Chaplain can charge into Invictarus Suzerain's with an Apothecary, and even though they don't get the charge bonus they will murder that Squad. Hell, if the Chaplain has a fist they'll kill 4 Marines per turn (with just the 2 axes, Sergeant and Chaplain) which is just over the damage the Suzerain's do to them if there's 10 Suzerain's. Seeing as how you can stack it so that Suzerain's need to kill 7 models just to get at the Power Axes (statistically they'll only kill 6 before dying, 7 if the Apothecary has a power sword), trading the half the Assault Squad for a full-man Suzerain squad (and Apothecary) is well worth it. Since you can move the Chaplain to a different unit, even if the four Marines left alive die you traded ~260 points for 420+. -- Triacom (talk) 01:53, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
Yeah, I checked it and my memory fails me, they just said it modifies the profile, so S5 on Strength test, but Power Fists are S9. --95.28.160.96 17:48, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

The more we talk to less convinced I am that you'll see you're arguing against the rulebook itself, so I'll post the section you should have read a while ago: "The choice of Allegiance is not determined by a Detachment’s Faction." In other words, the player always chooses to play Loyalist or Traitor no matter what, and this happens before Faction selection (even if choosing one or the other locks you out of certain factions). How much more proof do you need that you're arguing against the books? It literally divides picking Allegiance, Faction and Units into three separate events with very clear rules for each, and a very clear process of selection. Likewise the Rite of War is also clear in that units only available to Traitors cannot be taken, and it says that separately from listing Factions, and it says nothing about limiting Allegiances. Saying stuff like "Now go reread what I wrote about that small note of "rules presented here" referring to all WB rules in the book, not only LA rules themselves." Makes it seem like you haven't read the core rules for the setting since that's not how it works, and you're assuming invisible rules are on unit sheets when the core rulebook itself says that's not the case. By the way, if you play two Word Bearers forces against each other, one of them always becomes Loyalist no matter what: "In situations where two players have both selected the same Allegiance, one army is still considered to be fighting for the opposing Allegiance for that game." That's also on page 128 but I'm posting it here because I doubt you'll read it otherwise. This also means fighting with Traitor vs Traitor forces is literally impossible, as is Loyalist vs Loyalist forces, even if it's a Custodes mirror match, one of the two will always become Traitors. -- Triacom (talk) 23:46, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

The more we talk the more I am convinced you can't put two and two together and get a four. > The choice of Allegiance is not determined by a Detachment’s Faction Uh-huh. So you want to take Loyalist Word Bearers, you go to Age of Darkness Legions, see that ALL their rules presented there are explicitly for Traitors, then continue to ignore it and make shit like Loyalists with Dark Channeling. Stop spewing nonsense and trying to shoehorn bullshit. > Makes it seem like you haven't read the core rules for the setting since that's not how it works, and you're assuming invisible rules are on unit sheets when the core rulebook itself says that's not the case Breaking news, special rules have a precedence over a core ones! It's also in the rulebook! If some Faction rules say they are for Traitor Allegiance only, it means Traitor Allegiance only!> one army is still considered to be fighting for the opposing Allegiance for that game Except it is "considered" to be of different Allegiance. Your WB Traitor Herald won't become Loyalist one. You retain all your special rules and such, your Traitor-only units won't leave your roster. > The part where it says "presented here" is referring to the Legion rules, not the unit entries. Obviously wrong, for reasons clear as day. > Except they didn't copy it from anywhere From the list of Traitor legions. > Since the Word Bearers have unique rules Traitor Word Bearers. Go ahead and present me rules for Loyalist Word Bearers. --95.28.160.96 08:21, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
"So you want to take Loyalist Word Bearers, you go to Age of Darkness Legions, see that ALL their rules presented there are explicitly for Traitors, then continue to ignore it and make shit like Loyalists with Dark Channeling." Wrong, you see that the core rules state that their individual units are unaligned and that you only need to play Traitors if you want to use their army rules, which is why Loyalist Alpha Legion can buy them, since "The choice of Allegiance is not determined by a Detachment’s Faction." You can also play against other Traitors in which case one of you will need to become Loyalists. "Stop spewing nonsense and trying to shoehorn bullshit." Yeah how dare I quote the core rules verbatim! Obviously they don't know what they're talking about! "Breaking news, special rules have a precedence over a core ones!" Holy shit, you really are clueless aren't you? The Core Rules are a newer edition than the Age of Darkness Legions and so they take precedence, just like how every new edition of 40k's core rules take precedence over the previous edition's Codices. I could even argue that when they wrote "The choice of Allegiance is not determined by a Detachment’s Faction" they accidentally removed the condition for Word Bearers to be Traitors. "It's also in the rulebook! If some Faction rules say they are for Traitor Allegiance only, it means Traitor Allegiance only!" Wrong on two accounts, that's faction rules, not unit rules and that does play a part when you can use units without using their faction rules, and secondly why do you think the core rulebook says "The choice of Allegiance is not determined by a Detachment’s Faction"? "Except it is "considered" to be of different Allegiance. Your WB Traitor Herald won't become Loyalist one." Yeah they will, you specifically swap to a Loyalist/Traitor to both be thematically different, and trigger any special rules the opposing side might have against Loyalists/Traitors. This goes vice versa if your opponent chooses to swap their Allegiance. The core rules even acknowledge this; that you're arguing against this shows me you have not read the core rules. "You retain all your special rules and such, your Traitor-only units won't leave your roster." Except some of the rules will work a little differently, for example as you mention here, Legion Heralds give a different effect depending on whether they're Loyalists or Traitors. You can also be at a disadvantage if your opponent has a number of rules specifically targetting Loyalists and you don't have the same targetting Traitors (as an example, you could gain the benefit of Arch-traitors if you convince your opponent to swap and become Loyalists instead of you, even if they're also Word Bearers). "Obviously wrong, for reasons clear as day." Prove it. You can't say it's wrong without backing it up, especially not when your assertion isn't supported by the rules. "Traitor Word Bearers. Go ahead and present me rules for Loyalist Word Bearers." Sure, take Loyalist Alpha Legion, take Coils of the Hydra, take Gal Vorbak, and there you go, Loyalist Word Bearers. Alternatively take Word Bearers, fight against Traitors and agree to be the Loyalists. There you go, Loyalist Word Bearers. -- Triacom (talk) 10:59, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
> Yeah how dare I quote the core rules verbatim Being unable to wrap your head that each and every WB rule and datasheet is Traitor only is not "core rules verbatim". There is nothing in the core rulebook that changes this fact. > why do you think the core rulebook says "The choice of Allegiance is not determined by a Detachment’s Faction Special rules have precedence over core ones, once again. It's not that hard to understand, try to use your brain for once. Rulebook only overwrites something specifically mentioned, it doesn't magically make each and every book that came before it obsolete. Or what, you're gonna argue that Solar Auxilia shouldn't be hitting on 5's and 6's on Overwatch because the RB says it's Snapshots only? > The core rules even acknowledge this; that you're arguing against this shows me you have not read the core rules No, they are not. There isn't a word about evicting Allegiance-specific units from your roster. > You can't say it's wrong without backing it up, especially not when your assertion isn't supported by the rules Because one should be retarded to think that Lorgar having no "traitor-only" label has no connection to a statement "Hey, everything you see here is Traitor-only!" at the beginning of each and every Word Bearer section in each and every book. If some idiot can't understand a clearly written rule, I won't bother talking to him. --95.28.160.96 13:48, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
"Being unable to wrap your head that each and every WB rule and datasheet is Traitor only is not "core rules verbatim". There is nothing in the core rulebook that changes this fact." Spoken like you've never read them: "Most units available to the various Factions of the Age of Darkness do not have an Allegiance stated in their Army List entry, in these cases the Allegiance chosen for the army determines the Allegiance of these units." Because Word Bearers don't have the Allegiance stated for their units in their entries they are unaligned at the start. Why does their Legion not pre-set the Allegiance of their unique units? Because: "The choice of Allegiance is not determined by a Detachment’s Faction." Those are both direct quotes from the core rulebook, it could not be any clearer. "Special rules have precedence over core ones, once again." Not when it's a new edition they don't. In those cases you always use the new rules found in the core rulebook until the individual lists are updated. Even should that happen here though it wouldn't change anything because of how they do army building. "Rulebook only overwrites something specifically mentioned, it doesn't magically make each and every book that came before it obsolete." Two things, firstly why do you think that when they wrote "The choice of Allegiance is not determined by a Detachment’s Faction" it didn't overwrite the Word Bearers army restriction? Furthermore, the core rules do overwrite everything before them, if some rule is changed in the core rules and there's a different version of it in an army book, you use the new edition's core rules. The new edition's core rules do in fact make everything before them obsolete if there's any conflict between them. "No, they are not. There isn't a word about evicting Allegiance-specific units from your roster." I never said there was, try to pay attention. "Because one should be retarded to think that Lorgar having no "traitor-only" label has no connection to a statement "Hey, everything you see here is Traitor-only!" at the beginning of each and every Word Bearer section in each and every book." So you're too smart to read the core rules then? Because it outright states right there the difference between armies and units, as well as the process of building an army, how your faction doesn't choose your alignment, and that if units don't have labels then they're unaligned. Good thing you know the game better than the rules themselves, a shame you can't cite any source for your claims. "If some idiot can't understand a clearly written rule, I won't bother talking to him." Well at least you won't waste time talking to yourself. You've provided no evidence that the "traitor only" restriction on the Word Bearers faction carries over to every one of their units, and when the core rules explicitly state the opposite you tried to argue that the core rules are wrong. -- Triacom (talk) 14:09, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
"The choice of Allegiance is not determined by a Detachment’s Faction." It's directly stated that Word Bearers rules are Traitor-only. No Loyalist Word Bearer rules exist. No rules overwrite this. > the core rules do overwrite everything before them, if some rule is changed in the core rules and there's a different version of it in an army book, you use the new edition's core rules Have fun living in retarded world where SA rules on Overwatch don't work then. That's not how updated rules work. > I never said there was, try to pay attention. So Loyal Herald and Traitor unique units or vice versa. > So you're too smart to read the core rules then No, I'm just sane enough to understand that if Word Bearers are listed as available to only Traitor Allegiance it means exactly that. I also seem to know how updated rules work, unlike you. (oh, and unlike guys who wrote the rulebook, I know that bolter has AP of 5 (Fast Dice, page 40), there is no unit such as Solar Auxilia Inducted Levy Squad (page 51), that Heavy Stubber has AP of 6 (despite it's listed in both Auto and Stub Weapons with different profiles)). --95.28.160.96 16:29, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
"It's directly stated that Word Bearers rules are Traitor-only." Their army rules are, their units are not, as defined by the core rules. "No Loyalist Word Bearer rules exist. No rules overwrite this." Except for the following: "The choice of Allegiance is not determined by a Detachment’s Faction." There's also the rule that states every game is Loyalist vs Traitor, no matter what. Even if you're both Custodes, one of you must swap Allegiance. "Have fun living in retarded world where SA rules on Overwatch don't work then. That's not how updated rules work." It's exactly how updated rules work, new rules overwrite old rules. Also there's nothing overwriting the SA's snap shot rule. It's good that you're saying you think it's retarded to read the rules though, but it won't help you win any arguments against the actual rulebook. "So Loyal Herald and Traitor unique units or vice versa." As written they swap Allegiance, so you can have Loyalist Horus fighting Traitor Lorgar, or vice versa. In fact, as written if you're playing Horus against Lorgar one of them will turn Loyalist. "No, I'm just sane enough to understand that if Word Bearers are listed as available to only Traitor Allegiance it means exactly that." Oh so you're so sane you know the core rulebook doesn't mean what it says? "I also seem to know how updated rules work, unlike you." Is that why you were referencing the Crusade list, which is outdated, and needed to be corrected about how Dark Channelling works with Power Fists? Is that also why you said several times here that you could represent Loyalist Word Bearers by using the unlisted legions rules, citing an out of date book as your example when the current book doesn't allow you to do this? -- Triacom (talk) 19:43, 13 August 2020 (UTC)
> Their army rules are, their units are not, as defined by the core rules Let's pretend it's about their rules, even though it isn't. You're trying to take Legion-exclusive units without including the Legion (which is Traitor-only). > one of you must swap Allegiance It's "count as" type of swap, obviously ill-thought.> Oh so you're so sane you know the core rulebook doesn't mean what it says? Special rules over core ones, dummy. > Is that also why you said several times here that you could represent Loyalist Word Bearers by using the unlisted legions rules, citing an out of date book as your example when the current book doesn't allow you to do this You're fucking welcome to find loyal Word Bearers rules, as I said, without ignoring existing ones. And yeah, mister "new-edition-changes-all-rules-if-not-mentioned", you should have told that to all that people with Night Scythes and Valkyries back when they transitioned from 5th to 6th (or 6th to 7th, lol). Somehow they miraculously retained their special transport rules of disembarking despite RB not mentioning them, can you believe that? --95.28.160.96 18:54, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
"Le's pretend it's about their rules, even though it isn't. You're trying to take Legion-exclusive units without including the Legion (which is Traitor-only)." Now you're getting it, this is why Loyalist Alpha Legion can take unique units from the Word Bearers, because they can take Legion-exclusive units without including the Legion (which is Traitor-only). This means that by definition their unique units are not Traitor-only, and this will also have more of an impact if they include other factions in the future who can include unique units without using that unit's Legion/Faction. "It's "count as" type of swap, obviously ill-thought." Also correct, however it still works like that for all intents and purposes. "Special rules over core ones, dummy." New edition trumps old one dummy. "You're fucking welcome to find loyal Word Bearers rules, as I said, without ignoring existing ones." I already gave you examples, you want them again? "Somehow they miraculously retained their special transport rules of disembarking despite RB not mentioning them, can you believe that?" I don't recall the rulebook overwriting them in the same way as re-writing a rule or saying that a faction does not dictate your Allegiance. -- Triacom (talk) 19:09, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
> Now you're getting it No, I'm not. How are you taking unit which is specifically said should be included in Traitor Allegiance armies only by its legion rules? > Also correct, however it still works like that for all intents and purposes No, it doesn't. You can't take a Word Bearer force using rules in Age of Darkness Legions and add a Knight-Errant or Custodes allied detachment. > New edition trumps old one dummy Only when directly overlapping, dummy. > as re-writing a rule or saying that a faction does not dictate your Allegiance "Note that the chart itself is not split along the lines of Traitors and Loyalists, as in many cases the Legions were in themselves split into factions for either side" Legiones Astartes Age of Darkness army list p.14. Oh wait, it states that a faction does not dictate your Allegiance by other words! --95.28.160.96 20:22, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
"How are you taking unit which is specifically said should be included in Traitor Allegiance armies only by its legion rules?" Because that only applies if you're forced to use those Legion rules. If you have some manner of including their units in an army without using those Legion rules (like the Alpha Legion do), then those Legion rules do not apply to them and you only use what's on the unit sheet. Before you ask, yes this means that Gal Vorbak Dark Martyrs in a Word Bearers Army can buy Tainted Weapons, however they cannot buy Tainted Weapons when used by the Alpha Legion since that upgrade is Legion-specific, not unit specific. "No, it doesn't. You can't take a Word Bearer force using rules in Age of Darkness Legions and add a Knight-Errant or Custodes allied detachment." You're half-right, you can't include those in your army when you're building it, however since you play the game after you build the army you won't have that option after you swap your Allegiance. "Only when directly overlapping, dummy." And the Word Bearers Faction rules saying they have to be Traitors directly overlaps with the new edition saying Factions do not dictate your Allegiance, dummy. "Legiones Astartes Age of Darkness army list p.14." Why are you still referencing outdated material? The Age of Darkness Army List is older than the Age of Darkness Core Rules, it came out before the new edition. -- Triacom (talk) 20:53, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
> when used by the Alpha Legion I'm talking about not-Traitor exclusive Word Bearer Praetor in Rite of War, leave Alpha Legion out of this for a moment.> after you swap your Allegiance Which, as we already established, is "count-as" change of Allegiance because it will invalidate your roster otherwise. > >And the Word Bearers Faction rules saying they have to be Traitors directly overlaps with the new edition saying Factions do not dictate your Allegiance, dummy. >Why are you still referencing outdated material Are you really that stupid? --95.28.160.96 07:54, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
"I'm talking about not-Traitor exclusive Word Bearer Praetor in Rite of War, leave Alpha Legion out of this for a moment." Hang on a minute, because the Praetor has the exact same issue the Word Bearer's unique units have (their allegiance is undefined), and admitting that the Praetor isn't Traitor-exclusive kind of ruins that argument since I have been making the exact same point about the WB unique units (their Legion rules are Traitor only, their units are not, otherwise nobody else would be able to take any unit they could take). "Which, as we already established, is "count-as" change of Allegiance because it will invalidate your roster otherwise." Yes, but it still counts-as being a different Legion for all intents and purposes, including special rules. This is also why forces that remained Neutral still need to choose an Allegiance. "Are you really that stupid?" Dude, pay attention, the Age of Darkness Army List came out before the new edition (the Age of Darkness Core Rules). There's a reason when Barrage weapons were changed from guess-range to what we have now you didn't assume that the older edition's books took precedent and still used guess-range, same with any references to psychic powers being used in the Shooting phase once 7th edition reintroduced the Psychic phase. -- Triacom (talk) 08:31, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
> admitting that the Praetor isn't Traitor-exclusive Praetor with WB rules presented in Age of Darkness Legions is explicitly said to be used with Traitor Allegiance, being therefore only available to a Traitor army. Point 2 of Orphans of Betrayal. > it still counts-as being a different Legion No, it doesn't? Your Word Bearers won't lose LA, and Custodes won't be immediately tabled.> Dude, pay attention >oh, he quotes rules for army-building in the old edition and compares it to ones in new edition, WHY DOES HE USE OLD EDITION RULES WHILE COMPARING???? FFS, it has the same rule in "old edition" formed with different words. "New edition" didn't change anything in that regard. Try actually reading what I'm typing here. --95.28.160.96 11:26, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
"Praetor with WB rules presented in Age of Darkness Legions is explicitly said to be used with Traitor Allegiance, being therefore only available to a Traitor army. Point 2 of Orphans of Betrayal." Again you are conflating Faction and Unit rules, so where's your source saying they're the same? As I've pointed out numerous times, the Core rules say they're different. "No, it doesn't?" Yeah it does, any rules that target Loyalists will work on your WB for the battle. "Your Word Bearers won't lose LA, and Custodes won't be immediately tabled." Where the hell are you getting this from? "FFS, it has the same rule in "old edition" formed with different words." No it does not, how armies are built was changed, as were the game's you could play with them. Before for example, you could have Traitor vs Traitor games. ""New edition" didn't change anything in that regard." Yes it did, and you've been arguing against direct quotes from the changed bits. "Try actually reading what I'm typing here." I am, you should try reading the Rulebook because you seem to think a Word Bearers Preator and an Ultramarines Praetor are different units when they are not. -- Triacom (talk) 11:43, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
By the way, even if we were to ignore the Core Rules, as you seem to want to do, the Age of Darkness Legiones book makes a distinction between the army list and Legion Rules: "Unless specified by a particular mission, all of the units chosen as part of the Primary and Lords of War detachments must be from the same army list and from the same Faction, Traitor or Loyalist (and in the case of a Space Marine Legion, they must also have the same version of the Legiones Astartes special rule as well where relevant). To spell it out, choosing a Legion adds a special rule to your units (much like many RoW), it does not change them into entirely new units and this was a thing even before the Core Rules came out. -- Triacom (talk) 12:07, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
After thinking it over, I'm going to go over this in more detail. Cutting out the flavour text, here's what the special rules look like:
  • LEGIONES ASTARTES SPECIAL RULES: LEGIONES ASTARTES: Units will also have additional special rules and abilities specific to their Legion.
  • LEGIONES ASTARTES (WORD BEARERS): All models and units with this special rule are subject to the following provisions:"
If you want to claim having a special rule changes a unit into a completely different unit then find me fucking any edition of the game ever made that supports this assertion. It would be frankly ridiculous if you're claiming a Blood Angels Assault Squad is a completely different unit compared to a Blood Angels Assault Squad just because the first unit had the Angel's Wrath RoW and the second did not. Nothing in the history of the game has ever said a unit becomes a completely different unit just because they gained a Special Rule. -- Triacom (talk) 12:36, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
> Again you are conflating Faction and Unit rules, so where's your source saying they're the same So, for example, Dark Brotherhood give PF (Loyalist Space Marines). You're arguing it doesn't work on units because it's about their faction? > Where the hell are you getting this from From rules of taking models with LA (WB) or Custodes as Agents of the Emperor into your army. Invalid roster = no game. > Before for example, you could have Traitor vs Traitor games How does it refer to the fact Faction didn't determine your Allegiance even then? Loyal Sons of Horus or Traitor Ultramarines have been valid since book 1. > you seem to think a Word Bearers Preator and an Ultramarines Praetor are different units Do remind me the rulebook definition of "unit"? LEGIONES ASTARTES (WORD BEARERS): All models and units with this special rule are subject to the following provisions:" Except "traitor-only" thing is not part of their LA USR. --95.28.160.96 20:35, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
"So, for example, Dark Brotherhood give PF (Loyalist Space Marines). You're arguing it doesn't work on units because it's about their faction?" What? Where are you getting that from? I'm going to assume you're referring to the Arch-traitors part of Dark Brethren which does that (and I do not recall a rule called "Dark Brotherhood") but nowhere have I said that would not work because it triggers based on your allegiance and army list, not your units. "From rules of taking models with LA (WB) or Custodes as Agents of the Emperor into your army. Invalid roster = no game." Ah I see, well fortunately the main rulebook covers this and allows you to do it, they make an exception on page 128. "How does it refer to the fact Faction didn't determine your Allegiance even then? Loyal Sons of Horus or Traitor Ultramarines have been valid since book 1." Because the books never had a clear series of steps to follow in building your army before, they never gave out the steps in the core rules and they also never said the faction does not determine the Allegiance before. Furthermore if you wanted to play Traitor Ultramarines vs Traitor Salamanders for some reason you absolutely could have done that, because the rule that you must always be opposing allegiances was only added in the Core Rules. I honestly think that was why they said your Faction doesn't determine your Allegiance. "Do remind me the rulebook definition of "unit"?" I would love to, would you believe that the Core Rules actually have a definition for this which is also on page 128? Here it is:
  • "ARMY LIST ENTRIES: The rules for your Forge World and Citadel miniatures are found either in one of Forge World’s Army List books, Campaign books or as a download from the Forge World website. In any case where multiple versions of a unit’s rules are available, always use the most recently published version. Regardless of where this information is found, it is known as an ‘Army List entry’. Each Army List entry describes a unit of Forge World or Citadel miniatures, and includes everything you will need to know in order to use that unit in a game of The Horus Heresy: Age of Darkness.
I've put the important part in bold, and I'll go over it again here: a unit is anything that has an army list entry. Since Word Bearers and Ultramarines Praetors do not have separate army list entries, they are the same unit. "Except "traitor-only" thing is not part of their LA USR." Yeah it is, it's literally included right under the Special Rule. The Special Rule is so huge it's made up of a bunch of smaller rules (like the Primarch rule) and it takes up two pages. Why do you think it isn't part of their LA rule? -- Triacom (talk) 00:22, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
> because it triggers based on your allegiance and army list So some rules requiring Allegiance work and some don't because you want it? Okay. > they also never said the faction does not determine the Allegiance before They are saying it in the bit I quoted for you.> the rule that you must always be opposing allegiances was only added in the Core Rules. I honestly think that was why they said your Faction doesn't determine your Allegiance Fail to see the logic here. The only reason I can think of is area of effect rules buffing or debuffing Loyalists or Traitors. > a unit is anything that has an army list entry Nope. The definition of "unit" is given on p. 15 of the Rulebook. You're confusing Army List entry and the unit itself. > Yeah it is, it's literally included right under the Special Rule It's under Diabolist rules, and while it's clearly referencing all Word Bearer rules found in this entire chapter, NOT page, it's not a point in LA, like others' Legions limitations. --95.28.160.96 08:29, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
"So some rules requiring Allegiance work and some don't because you want it? Okay." No, it works that way because the Core Rules say it works that way. "They are saying it in the bit I quoted for you." And as I've already pointed out, you're quoting out of date rules. The Age of Darkness Legions came out before the new edition. "Nope. The definition of "unit" is given on p. 15 of the Rulebook." Those are the same thing, and they both cover units from different perspectives, I chose to go over it for the purposes of building an army. Even so, where are you getting the idea that a Word Bearers Praetor and an Ultramarines Praetor are completely separate units with separate army list entries? After all, the Army List section states "Each Army List entry describes a unit of Forge World or Citadel miniatures-" so if they're not the same unit they'd need separate entries. "You're confusing Army List entry and the unit itself." Why do you think there is a difference? "It's under Diabolist rules-" And the Diabolist Rules are under the Legiones Astartes (Word Bearers) rule, meaning they're both under/inside it. This would be like claiming Signs and Portents is under the Arch-traitors rule, not the Dark Brethren Rite of War when they're both under/inside it. "and while it's clearly referencing all Word Bearer rules found in this entire chapter, NOT page-" Citation needed. Why do you think both of those pages are not just subsets of the Legiones Astartes (Word Bearers) rule? I ask because that's exactly how it's written. "it's not a point in LA, like others' Legions limitations." Yes it is, the Word Bearers Legion rule says they're subject to the following provisions and that is literally included along with the provisions. -- Triacom (talk) 09:13, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
> because the Core Rules say it works that way But there were no Allegiances back then when it was written, so it doesn't work, by your logic. > And as I've already pointed out, you're quoting out of date rules And I'm once again asking if you're stupid. Some vicious circle, isn't it? > Those are the same thing, and they both cover units from different perspectives No, they are not. You are not your ID papers, even if they contain information about you. > meaning they're both under/inside it That's not how it works. > I ask because that's exactly how it's written >Word Bearers Legion rule says No, it's not. Go see how other's Legions limitations are written into their rules, say, Space Wolves, Iron Hands, Blood Angels or Thousand Sons. Or do you think FW just carried on with not-Traitor-exclusive Gal Vorbak for 4 books now? --95.28.160.96 13:54, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
"But there were no Allegiances back then when it was written, so it doesn't work, by your logic." Oh I see what you're saying, well that's wrong on two accounts, firstly they did exist right on page 9 (AoDL) under Composition: "Unless specified by a particular mission, all of the units chosen as part of the Primary and Lords of War detachments must be from the same army list and from the same Faction, Traitor or Loyalist (and in the case of a Space Marine Legion, they must also have the same version of the Legiones Astartes special rule as well where relevant)." Before you try to claim that this says Allegiances are factions, I'll save you the embarrassment and show you the Core Rules account for this: "Allegiance and Factions: In some older Forge World publications, Allegiances (Traitor or Loyalist) are sometimes referred to as Factions (see page 138), a holdover from earlier incarnations of the Horus Heresy rules. Neither Traitor nor Loyalist should be counted as a Faction for the purposes of army construction, the only Factions in use in the Horus Heresy are those listed on the Age of Darkness Allies chart (see page 138)." Secondly, even if we go all the way back to the Isstvan Campaign Legions, the Loyalist and Traitor rules are explained on page 2. They have always been a thing, you just missed them. "And I'm once again asking if you're stupid. Some vicious circle, isn't it?" How stupid of me to use the current rules, even though that's how the game has worked since it started. "No, they are not. You are not your ID papers, even if they contain information about you." Except units in the game are their unit sheets. There is nothing they have/are that isn't included there and page 128 states in no uncertain terms army list entries are the units, so how do you think they differ? You also still haven't said why Ultramarines Praetors and Word Bearers Praetors are different units despite having the same army list entry. "That's not how it works." It's exactly how it works, in case you haven't noticed, the first thing in that "chapter" as you call it, is literally the Legiones Astartes (Word Bearers) Special Rule, and everything that makes the Legion unique is under it. "No, it's not. Go see how other's Legions limitations are written into their rules, say, Space Wolves, Iron Hands, Blood Angels or Thousand Sons." It's written in exactly the same way, all of them are included directly under their unique version of the Legiones Astartes special rule. "Or do you think FW just carried on with not-Traitor-exclusive Gal Vorbak for 4 books now?" Seeing how that's what the Core Rules say they did, I'm going to say yes. -- Triacom (talk) 19:12, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
> firstly they did exist right on page 9 (AoDL) under Composition>we go all the way back to the Isstvan Campaign Legions But that's outdated rules, why are you quoting them? > How stupid of me to use the current rules Maybe you'll see the contradiction now...> Except units in the game are their unit sheets Nope. Both Ultramarines Praetors and Word Bearers Praetors are different units despite having the same army list entry. I'll even tell you a secret: two Ultramarines Praetors with the same wargear on the same battlefield are different units! Shocking! > It's written in exactly the same way, all of them are included directly under their unique version of the Legiones Astartes special rule. Now go and re-read them, until you notice where LA ends and other Legion rules like unique Consuls or Wargear begin. It's not that hard. I believe in your ability to spot the obvious. > Seeing how that's what the Core Rules say they did Oh, now the Core Rules specifically include Gal Vorbak? Do go on. --95.28.160.96 16:37, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
"But that's outdated rules, why are you quoting them?" Because you said they didn't exist back then, and you were wrong. I'm proving that they existed in every version of the game since you tried to claim they didn't. "Maybe you'll see the contradiction now..." What contradiction? You said something didn't exist before, I proved it did. This is not the same as what you are doing because you are trying to ignore the Core Rules by bringing up old rules, whereas I'm only going back to the old rules to prove you wrong when you said something didn't exist. I am not using old rules to bypass the Core Rules, and I am not holding them above the Core Rules like you are, because they are outdated. "Nope. Both Ultramarines Praetors and Word Bearers Praetors are different units despite having the same army list entry." Prove it, where in the rules does it say they are not the same unit for the purposes of army building? I know you get distracted easily but stay focused, the point here is army building, not anything else. You have claimed that Word Bearers units found in the regular Legiones book are unique units for the purposes of army building for some time now, it was the whole argument behind your claim that the units were Traitors-only, it has been the core behind this debate, and you have yet to show any evidence for this. "Now go and re-read them, until you notice where LA ends and other Legion rules like unique Consuls or Wargear begin." They begin inside of their special rule, which is still included at the top of the section. Their version of LA does not end when they start talking about their unique units/wargear since they are included under its provisions. "Oh, now the Core Rules specifically include Gal Vorbak? Do go on." Yes, because A) The Gal Vorbak have no listed Allegiance, and B) As written, the Word Bearers have access to the Gal Vorbak, the Gal Vorbak do not technically belong to them since they lack the LA (WB) Special Rule. In this way they are no different to something like a Word Bearers Navigator. If any other Legion said they had access to Gal Vorbak (like the Alpha Legion) without changing anything about the unit, then there would be nothing setting that Legion's Gal Vorbak apart to the Word Bearer's unit, they would just have the same unit selection. -- Triacom (talk) 16:47, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Adding unit synergies to the Legion topics[edit]

I've been thinking this over for a bit, and I think we should be doing more than just listing the Legion rules and talking about which units they work with within specific sections, and to explain what I mean I'll need to bring up some changes I made to the Word Bearers section:

Word Bearers Assault Squads can be made into some of the best by combining Dark Channelling, Dark Brethren and certain characters, and optionally with Burning Lore, but where should this be discussed? You'll need to select the Rite, or Dark Channelling (which is already inside the Diabolist, so it might get missed) or you'd need to make a new section that discusses these Legion Synergies, and this is what I'd like to do. More specifically it would talk about which units work well, and which units should be avoided, to use the Word Bearers as another example, their Terminators are almost always way less efficient than Gal Vorbak, and the two cost the same if you buy the Terminators Dark Channelling (which might even destroy the unit). -- Triacom (talk) 03:19, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

About Stasis Shells[edit]

I'm not so sure Combi-Grenade Launchers count for the Stasis Shells upgrade, since they're not Grenade Launchers, they're Combi-Grenade Launchers. This is the exact issue we ran into last time with how DA could replace Plasma Guns, but not twin-linked Plasma Guns with Plasma Repeaters since Forgeworld is under the impression those are different weapons. There's also no ambiguity here the way there is with something like Death Guard using Chem Munitions in the Toxiferran Flamers, since their rule says "Flame Weapons", and their weapons listed (in brackets) start with ie, whereas the DA's weapon limitations do not.

A quick addition, I'm not looking to argue for or against the Chem Munitions point, I'm just using it as an example where people argue since there's some ambiguity. Forge World drawing a line between Plasma Guns and Twin-linked Plasma Guns has me convinced that if those are separate weapons, so are Grenade Launchers and Combi-Grenade Launchers. They're also listed as separate upgrades for the squads who can have both so I highly doubt they intend for every Sergeant with a Combi-Weapon to gain access to them.

Also checking over the rule again, the Stasis Shells entry in book 9 lists Grenade Launchers and Twin-linked Grenade Launchers as different weapons as well. -- Triacom (talk) 07:44, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

I'd personally argue it's RAI to have Combi-Grenade Launchers able to take them, given there's barely any units that can take normal Grenade Launchers, right? But that could be FW style rules fail, so maybe say 'check with opponent because it's cheesy and unclear'? --58.162.223.230 09:23, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
If Grenade Launchers and Twin-linked Grenade Launchers are separate weapons, is it really unclear that Grenade Launchers and Combi-Grenade Launchers are separate weapons? -- Triacom (talk) 16:44, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Unless The Legions got a new weapon in Crusade(which I don't have yet). The only way Astartes have access to Grenade Launchers are from Combi-Weapons. The sole exception are Grave Wardens. It would be rather dumb of Forge World to make rules for a weapon that Dark Angels don't have access too. Valvatorez (talk) 18:14, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

As of book 8 Destroyer Squads can take Grenade Launchers, however even if this wargear couldn't be taken by anyone, it wouldn't be the first time FW did that. Remember the Adrathic Exterminator? The Custodes were given that weapon years ago and they've never had a model capable of taking it as wargear. Also there is no such thing as Marines carrying twin-linked Grenade Launchers, so that's another option in the Legion rules that doesn't exist. -- Triacom (talk) 20:49, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
So I think I found confirmation that Combi-Grenade Launchers =/= Grenade Launchers. The Deathwing Companions options has:
- Combi-Plasma or Combi-Melta = +7 points
- Combi-Grenade Launcher (with stasis, frag and krak shells) = +12 points
So given it'd make no sense to list the latter separate if there was the option to simply add Stasis shells to the Combi-Grenade Launcher for 5 points, I believe that's confirmation that normally a Combi-Grenade Launcher can't take them. Thoughts? --58.162.223.230 12:59, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
That's an excellent point, if it was something they could already buy then they probably wouldn't list it twice there.

A question about Stasis Grenades[edit]

Should we treat the Stasis Grenades units can get in the Eskaton Imperative Rite of War as Stasis Shells, or as the Stasis Grenades the Lion has as his wargear? I ask because Stasis Grenades are not included in the Dark Angels armoury, and I suspect this to be an accident on FW's part (either by omitting Stasis Grenades or by accidentally writing "Grenades" instead of "Shells"). In any case, it's probably worth it to include a warning. -- Triacom (talk) 20:41, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Dark Angels already get access to Stasis Shells as part of their standard legion specific gear, having the Eskaton Imperative offer the same thing would offer nothing. That, combined with the significant increase in points and says "all models" (30 per squad for grenades, as opposed to 5 points per missile/grenade launcher) indicates it's an entirely different thing. Using the Lion's item of wargear seems the only meaningful decision. It's not like Stasis Grenades are available any other way outside of the rite, so they wouldn't be part of the standard Dark Angels armoury. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 21:14, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
The Plasma Incinerator isn't part of the Dark Angels armoury either, and can only be drawn from the Interemptors unit entry, so it doesn't seem to be a typo to me --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 21:19, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
I was wondering that, which is why I said FW might've messed up by forgetting to include them in the DA's armoury. If it was actually supposed to be Stasis Shells, then maybe that was their way of giving them to Combi-Weapons? You're right about the incinerators, so we should probably just mention on the page where Stasis Grenade rules can be found since they're not included on the Legion rules here outside of the Lion's entry either. Rad Grenades are also a little ridiculous at that price, since Death Guard get them on Sergeants for much less. -- Triacom (talk) 21:23, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
Yeah, a page reference would've been useful in the sourcebook. But it's not that difficult to find, but we can mention it on the tactics page to add clarity. I never considered the price of rad grenades compared to others, but everything about these new Dark Angels rules seems expensive, especially as each rite requires you need to buy a 25pt Scions upgrade for each eligible unit before you even get access to other benefits/rules. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 21:31, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
It makes me wonder if Alan Bligh was in charge of both the lore and the game balance, most of the DA unique stuff is overcosted (compare the Scions upgrades to something like Dark Channelling, which costs the same), especially the Excindio and the RoW have ridiculous limitations for the player using them that are laughably unfair. -- Triacom (talk) 21:39, 18 September 2020 (UTC)
I think you're probably right, and it's a terrible shame he passed before his time, a loss for us all. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 21:50, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Plasma Burner[edit]

The analysis on the page says that the burners fire an average of two shots at 12", the same as a regular plasmagun, but is that really correct? The bare minimum the D3+1 can fire is two, isn't the average three instead? It may not change the overall comparison of the weapon to a S7 plasma squad overall, but Dreadwing still have rad grenades and access to a missile launcher with the good ammunition without having to pay more for it. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 11:53, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Pretty sure I added that, at least I think so, and yeah you're correct. The extra shot makes them pretty comparable to regular guns at short range. I'll fix it. -- Triacom (talk) 17:38, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Expanding the Contemptor weapons[edit]

The advice for the Contemptor weapon options is pretty small right now, and I'd like to change that by giving the a Support Squad style section where it breaks down the individual weapons and what they're best at. In general they're pretty solid, with one major exception: the Volkite Culverin.

I cannot find a good reason to recommend it, the thing costs as much as an Assault Cannon, and after crunching the numbers it's outperformed by the Cannon in every matchup except against GEQ's, but even then it's inefficient for its cost (and you'll be handicapping your list in every non-Cult Horde game). It lacks Rending so unlike the cannon it can't threaten heavier armour, and it will always be outperformed heavily by a Heavy Support Squad, who can take 5 while remaining cheaper than the Contemptor. It's relatively low damage output also means it's not going to be as threatening to your opponent in a Marine matchup than if it had kept its CCW (since that leads to sweeping advances) so it won't make a good Distraction Carnifex either. It really feels like you're handicapping yourself since, unlike all of the other guns, it's the only one that shares a niche and it does that niche worse in almost every matchup.

If anybody knows what I might be missing I'd love to hear it, the model looks really good and I love Volkite Weapons, but it feels like I'm paying to make the Dreadnought worse when I think of equipping it. -- Triacom (talk) 03:08, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Did you factor in the Culverin being twin-linked? That might be the issue, though otherwise I'd probably give it a section that says 'it's worse than the Assault Cannon, avoid unless you're taking it for fluff (like if playing Night Lords)' --58.162.223.230 03:36, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
I did. -- Triacom (talk) 06:45, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

I went and expanded the weapons on all the Dreadnoughts, and there's some good options available. So far my favourite build's been the regular Dread with the Flamstorm Cannon and Graviton Gun. They've been able to give really good battlefield control while only costing 155 points each. -- Triacom (talk) 11:18, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Just realized I forgot to add the Toxiferno Cannon, I'll add it later. -- Triacom (talk) 11:33, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Why TF was The Lion's section deleated?[edit]

we had a section for the lion under the Dark angels tab and now it's gone.

The Lion hasn't been included there yet it seems, however I'm having trouble finding this supposed entry that was there before. Even going back to June 26th I cannot find it, when was it made? -- Triacom (talk) 19:21, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Ironwing vs Extra Armour[edit]

Does Extra Armour really nullify the Scion of the Ironwing upgrade? or does it work both ways? If Extra Armour downgrades any Crew Stunned to Crew Shaken, but Ironwing upgrades any Crew Shaken to Crew Stunned, surely this is one of those cases where:

  1. Both rules cancel out, so Crew Stunned is always Crew Stunned / Crew Shaken is always Crew Shaken?
  2. Neither rule cancels out, any naturally rolled Crew Shaken result on the table is upgraded to the Crew Stunned outcome, while any naturally rolled Crew Stunned result on the table is downgraded to the Crew Shaken outcome?
  3. Roll off to see which one applies, as GW tends to suggest when rules come into conflict?

This might be something I actually email Forgeworld about, since its an oddball --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 15:04, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

I'd email them. It's something for the 40K Rules Blooper Reel until we get confirmation, though. --58.162.223.230 15:08, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
I'd email them too, how I read it is Scion of the Ironwing says it happens when you roll on the vehicle damage chart, whereas Extra Armour says it happens after. Still, this definitely needs clarification. -- Triacom (talk) 17:40, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
I sent the email, sometimes they can be quick, but other times I can forget I've even sent it before the reply comes. I also asked of Corswain's "Blade" was meant to apply the Mastery of the Blade rule, or if it was intentionally left out. So should answer that once and for all. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 18:00, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
Still no reply, but considering the amount of questions I posed to them I'm not surprised. All I can recommend is that more people send in emails for all of the more egregious discrepancies (Ironwing Scions, Dreadwing squad sizes for LR, DW Companions not fitting in transports, and pretty much every Rite of War!) and make a loud enough case for them to correct or clarify things in a future FAQ --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 11:39, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Interemptors in the Eskaton Imperative[edit]

I just wanted to say how funny it is to me that Interemptors must be upgraded to ten models in order to have a dedicated transport, even in their own Rite of War (not to mention it's a bad transport for them). The blooper reel additions from book 9 are going to be great, and I suspect we haven't found them all yet. -- Triacom (talk) 20:32, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

I found another one with the Storm of War rite. Because you need more Tactical/Assault squads than other units...but you also want a Centurion for each of those units so you can give them orders. Which essentially means you can only have a Praetor, Centurions and Tactical/Assault squads (and maybe another Consul or Dreadnoughts, assuming the Praetor is giving orders to one of those squads). It's honestly making me wonder if FW intended that 'units that can be chosen as compulsory troops can take an attached Centurion', given that'd let you take six regular Tactical/Assault Squads with a Centurion attached (and thus not part of the tax) instead of two. --58.162.223.230 04:43, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
It is a little better than what you added since Centurions bought as a part of the Rite are not considered to be separate units, so if you take a Praetor (to get the Rite) and two squads with Centurions, you can buy one more unit that isn't a Tactical or Assault Squad. If you buy a third Squad for the Praetor then you have three squads you can give orders to, and you can take two other units. It's still a pretty bad Rite though. -- Triacom (talk) 07:00, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
Not quite. Because you need more Tactical/Assault Squads. Not equal. So you essentially get:
  • Praetor (balanced by his squad)
  • 2x Compulsory Squad
  • One additional choice
While any other Tacticals/Assault Squads are instead balancing the Centurions. --58.162.223.230 07:15, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
From the book: "This Centurion is considered part of the Squad it is purchased with". Those Centurions are squad upgrades, they are not separate units. However here's one: Ten Interemptors can select a Land Raider Proteus with an Explorator Augury Web as a Dedicated Transport even though it has a Transport capacity of eight, and a squad of eight Interemptors cannot select it as a DT. This means you can get a Transport you literally cannot fit in. -- Triacom (talk) 07:22, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
Yeah, that example is worse than being able to take a Razorback on a full 10 man squad back in older editions of regular 40k (because at least they could Combat Squad). Why FW doesn't proofread I'll never know. And meanwhile for the Storm of War, I don't think I'm explaining myself correctly. I don't mean the initial Centurions. I mean the ones for your other two troops slots. Given they're not compulsory. Hence:
  • Tax Troops - 5 total
    • 2x Compulsory Tacticals (with Centurion)
    • 3x Non-Compulsory Tacticals
  • Other troops - 4 total
    • 1x Praetor
    • 2x Additional Centurions
    • 1x Whatever
Is this clearer? --58.162.223.230 07:29, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
Oh I see what you're saying, it was just as clear the first time, I just misread it since I kept thinking that it was "equal or more" for some reason, even though you're right and you must always field one more, not just as many. -- Triacom (talk) 07:38, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

All good, given FW loves alternating between equal and more depending on the RoW, it's an easy mistake to make. And in any case, I've got the feeling they may have intended that any Tactical/Assault Squad could take the Centurion upgrade and worded it really poorly, given:

Masters of the Storm of War: Any Legion Tactical Squads or Legion Assault Squads selected as Compulsory Troops choices and consisting of at least 20 models may include a Legion Centurion. This Centurion is considered part of the squad it is purchased with, may not leave it during play nor select any Consul upgrades and may not be chosen as the army's Warlord.

Could have meant they forgot that 2/3s of the troops choices aren't 'compulsory'. Either way they fucked it up big time. --58.162.223.230 07:43, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

No argument there, I was interested in playing an odd Eskaton Imperative with lots of Rad, Stasis and Plasma (not competitive but it would be fun) right up until I saw the Transport requirement. This means Interemptors become stupid expensive, same with Terminators, the Transports go really badly with the terrain you generate and this also means you'll want to go tanks for your heavy support, but then those can't have the neat Plasma/Rad/Stasis upgrades. Honestly every DA Rite of War in Book 9 besides The Serpent's Bane should be scrapped and rewritten. That single RoW is the only one that actually makes sense and can have clever builds made around it. -- Triacom (talk) 08:00, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
I was wanting to do something similar with a Skandic Host inspired Stormwing (I know they mostly went Dreadwing, but the Stormwing's massed infantry fits with the fact the Skandics would likely have been proto-Space Wolves) until I realised the tax issue. So in honesty, I think everything since Bligh died needs to be reviewed. It legitimately feels like he was the only competent guy in their entire team. --58.162.223.230 08:14, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
^This^ Though to clarify, I get the feeling that HH9 was written by several people who didn't know what each other were doing, or were constantly editing over the top of each other and missed things. For instance: Enigmatus Cabals have both Hatred (Characters) and Scions of the Firewing, granting the same rule, so it's like the rule was meant to be something else at some point and was missed, or the author genuinely didn't know. The Rites of War might have all been acceptable IF Scions were free upgrades for squads (you know? Like Thousand Sons and their multiple Cults?), but instead we have to pay lots of points in order to get access to what should have essentially been our Legiones Astartes rules. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 08:38, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
The mention of the 1ksons rules makes me wonder if it may have been a pendulum affect as well. They don't want to do OP rules like the Sons got in Inferno, so instead they went too far to the opposite and made the Dangels underpowered. --58.162.223.230 08:51, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
It feels that even though we're nine books into the HH series, we're still only actually at the midpoint of the Heresy storyline. So we can only hope the Dark Angels get revisited in a later book; perhaps one that will cover Imperium Secundus and the race through the Ruinstorm alongside the Ultramarines and Blood Angels; or an even a book to cover the rebellion of Luther (although the Fall of Caliban happens after the Siege of Terra, the Fallen were building their own little empire and resupplying the Death Guard and Space Wolves during the Heresy so there is room for more). Whether it fixes anything, I dunno... But I wouldn't mind having broader options to represent all -Wings and Orders, as we are still missing characters and/or units for the Stormwing and Ravenwing. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 10:53, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
I think we can count on it, tbh. GW/FW will milk this cow until it dies of exhaustion...then get Nurgle or Nagash to work his magic so they can keep milking it anyway. --58.162.223.230 12:19, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
It's really odd to me that the lore for Book 9 seems to be fanboying hard for the Dark Angels, yet the rules for them are so lackluster. As for books since Bligh died, I thought 8 was decent enough, it fixed the Custodes issue, the Daemons are a cool concept, I like how they added a campaign mechanic based around killing Primarchs and the Psyarkana was a good idea (as were the other Legion additions) but maybe those were all worked out way in advance and Book 9 was the first one to be truly without him. Even the length of the book (or lack of it) sets it apart from the others. -- Triacom (talk) 17:19, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Returning to Triacom's original point, I kinda struggled with my latest edit. It is possible to take Tactical Support squads kitted out as Interemptors in the Eskaton for cheaper than taking ten men and a LR, though obviously after your Compulsory slots are filled due to the Support Squad rule. Though it arguably defeats the purpose of having Interemptors as troops if you can make the squad up using the Dark Angels wargear, then it occured to me that that was probably Forgeworld's fatal error: you can make the equivalent of the squad using the existing wargear and rite of war upgrades benefits, you might not have wanted a Heavy Weapon so the only loss is Stubborn... there is very little special about this special unit other than the base price, which is utterly demolished by the requirement of the Rite of War. I'm not certain any other Legion has that issue where they can build an equivalent for their own special units Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 19:55, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

I've been number crunching too and while Interemptors are slightly more efficient than Support Squads for short ranged plasma, the issue is they still get charged, they still die, and Stubborn is not enough to save a squad that gets wiped out in Close Combat, and you can't even buy the Praefectus Artificer Armour! As far as I can tell you don't want to use them in the Eskaton Imperative at all, and their best use outside it is to hop in somebody else's Rhino and go. You can give them one by being it for a Heavy Support Squad, or some other unit that doesn't need it like Destroyers with Jump Packs. -- Triacom (talk) 20:01, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

What the fuck is the point of the Plasma Incinerator?[edit]

I've really been trying to make this thing work, but I think I have to give up, what's the point of this weapon? It's on a unit that needs to move in, which shortens the range to a laughable 9" and it already costs so much on the squad it's on compared to the benefit you get. You need to move them up in a transport but then the thing sucks because it's a heavy weapon and loses half its range. Even if you do open up on an enemy squad you're likely to only do 6 wounds (with it and the plasma burners combined) which is 0.45 more than a Support Squad with rapid-firing Plasma Guns who cost the same and have way better range, so they can shoot once at long range and once at short range before getting charged, and the Overwatch bonus isn't going to help the Interemptors much once the enemy within 9" decides they're on their shit list. This wouldn't be so bad if the Interemptors had jump packs or didn't suck in melee, but they don't have the former, and they're bad at the latter.

I thought about putting them on Support Squads using the Eskaton Imperative, however they suck after disembarking thanks to being a heavy weapon and cost too much. I thought about putting them on Terminators but the DT cost for Termies is so high that you're only going to get 1 squad and one Incinerator, not to mention you're only likely to shoot it once before you charge. It could be nice on them, if they could take more than one and weren't forced to take a transport in the 200+ point range just to have it.

I also thought about putting it on characters, however they face the same issue the Termies do (especially since they'll now need their own Land Raider since you'll want Termie armour) and characters on Jetbikes can't swap their weapons.

This could be a really good option if bikes could have them, but they're restricted to Infantry and characters only, so that in mind, what are they really good for? As is the Incinerators seem like a hefty cost for a mediocre damage boost that also doesn't work on most units. -- Triacom (talk) 01:33, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

Honestly, I dunno either. I had no real intention of using them. They're kind of pointless on Interemptor squads because its just more of the same firepower that they already have... at shorter range. I only put in the bit about terminators on the page entry because I was struggling to find places where they could go and I had spare Deathwing plasma laying about. The Eskaton Imperative gave us an option that doesn't have many places where it would work. An Armistos maybe, but the cost of the Incinerator wouldn't be reduced for swapping the Heavy Bolter he already has, so it's not an economic choice. Legion Recon Marines? because a Sniper Rifle is technically a Heavy-type weapon, it would be hilarious to see a bunch of Scouts rocking up with plasma cannons, though I suspect Destroyer squads with Jump packs really is the only sensible choice, if you'd rather not have the missile launcher? (Rad Grenades, Counter Attack, lots of close combat attacks, and then some rerollable plasma overwatch?) I'm still kitbashing together my second Destroyer squad so I can have Troops for the Rite, but I'm not going to build them in such a way that will tie them into one specific Rite of War and be unplayable elsewhere, so I'm not going to waste the parts. --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 07:31, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
I didn't think of Recon Squads, however they still need to start the game in a transport which fucks them up just like Support Squads. I also just realized Independent Characters cannot be given any Bike of any kind, since it says "Independent Characters" must begin the game in a transport, and not "Independent Characters with the Infantry type" must begin the game in a transport. What the fuck. -- Triacom (talk) 19:53, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
Five Recon Marines with five Plasma Incinerators, Scions of the Dreadwing and a Rhino is still nearly 200 points cheaper than ten Interemptors and a Land Raider, and can fire the same amount of S4 plasma, if not more at a marginally longer range so long as the unit hasn't moved. They already have Shroud Bombs so paying a little extra for Rad Grenades would make the unit an even scarier prospect to assault. I could also spend a little of those points on a Stormwing Apothecary to aid the squad when they snapfire and give them more survivability, I could throw in Chameleoline for the sake of it and STILL be cheaper than the ten Interemptors and their transport. It's stupid, but I think I've found myself a little project... --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 18:01, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
That definitely could be worth looking into, it's a definite start to making this weapon useful and if done right, could eat entire infantry blobs. I'm a little worried about its points efficiency, since you'll want to give them Infiltrate to get them in place quickly, but every lost model is going to feel like a huge points sink. I'm thinking in that case you might want to leave 2-3 Marines as just basic Marines so that when the unit takes a few losses you won't lose as much. A squad of 8 still kills 16 Marines and can afford to lose two before their firepower diminishes (and this also means you don't have to go to ground). -- Triacom (talk) 23:52, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
Unfortunately as you pointed out earlier, they'd need to be deployed inside a transport for the Rite of War, so they can't infiltrate, but it's only one turn of snapfire after they disembark which is mitigated if I add a Stormwing character. But in power armour at least I can reuse the squad as a plasma cannon heavy support squad in anything other than an Eskaton list. Don't get me wrong, this was more an exercise in spiting Forgeworld for their silly rules writing. My gaming circle is small and not very competitive and it can be a chore to get them to play a game, so it's really just an excuse to show off our cool models (heck, I play with Nullificators in normal lists because I kitbashed cool Cataphractii Terminators with Deathwing Knight parts and heavy flamers) At least if I put the models together I'm not strictly wasting anything if I can use the unit elsewhere or if they FAQ it out of the options (they probably didn't mean for sniper rifles to count for the swap). --Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 03:50, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
Hold on there, Infantry that can Infiltrate and that deploy in a Dedicated Transport confer Infiltrate to their Dedicated Transport (page 167) so them needing to be deployed inside their Rhino only messes them up for the first turn. They will at least be in range though. I think I'd prefer Recon Armour for this exact reason, there's a good chance my opponent might be able to counter my deployment if I rely on scout and moving whereas Infiltrate gives me a lot more freedom, but I can definitely see keeping Power Armour for the increased save if you think you can get to where you need to with Scout and the Rhino. By the way, since Recon Squads can't be compulsory you could just give the Sergeant the Scion of the Stormwing. If they have Recon Armour them Scion of the Dreadwing is a complete waste anyway since they already have Move Through Cover, aka the better version of that rule. I also definitely get keeping the squad with Power Armour so you can repurpose them, I won't have that limitation myself thanks to... reasons... though if Forge World didn't randomly get rid of their inventory I probably wouldn't have a "I'll do it myself" attitude since a lot of parts I want to use you literally cannot buy anywhere. I also definitely get wanting to go for what's fun/cool over what's practical, I've been trying to make truescale versions of the 30k Marines (mostly those armour bits GW/FW no longer sell) for that exact reason. I also am 100% sure they didn't intend for Sniper Rifles to count, however you might as well use them that way, I doubt a FAQ will come before mid 2021. -- Triacom (talk) 05:38, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
I didn't realise that about infiltrate, I was almost certain that vehicles were incapable of it, but that's cool, something I've never done before. Not so sure about being able to give the Sergeant Stormwing though, because I think the unit still needs to have a Scion of the Dreadwing to be able to take Plasma Incinerators in the first place, so I don't think that's something that can be escaped, but I'm not 100% sure because I don't have my book on me right now. But as mentioned, I wouldn't put them in Recon Armour because then I couldn't use the unit anywhere else, and it would feel like a waste, and I'd only be making the unit to spite Forgeworld's wording that may end up changing later. Someone else might, but I'm not going to put that much of an investment into it. (I'm just going to buy underarm plasma cannons, stick them on MkIV marines and find a way to sculpt cloaks) -Dark Angel 2020 (talk) 06:08, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
Whoops, you're right, they do need the Sergeant to have Scion of the Dreadwing to buy the upgrades. With that in mind I might also keep them in Power Armour, if only so the Recon Armour doesn't make the Scion "upgrade" useless. It might be tricky getting them where I need them, but I'm sure I can manage it. -- Triacom (talk) 06:13, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

The point about infiltrating in dedicated transports exists in the main article. For example WE rampaget section, it discusses phobos dedicated transport as denying scout (which is incorrect). There may be other examples out there, but its quite a significant rules mistake (in terms of in game effect), considering how useful infiltrate and especially scout is for transports (12 inch scout in a av14 box is FUN)

Boarding Shields and "Defensive Grenades"[edit]

So I was building a theoretical Space Wolves army list and had a weird idea which spawned another rules question. A Boarding Shield-equipped model counts as being equipped with Defensive Grenades...and Defensive Grenades are wargear, so aren't lost when an IC joins a squad without them. Hence my idea was to chuck a Boarding Shield on a Space Wolves Herald (who doesn't lose much because he can't use the additional attack anyway) and then put him in a Heavy Support Squad to give them both Implacable Advance and Defensive Grenades, which'll make them better Breachers (especially with the Wolves' counter-attack rules).

It just seems to be a bit of a rules snarl, given realistically a guy with Defensive Grenades would benefit a squad he's in...but a guy with a Boarding Shield would have a bit more trouble. --58.162.223.230 12:46, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

And never mind, I saw it was FAQed to not give Defensive Grenades, just the effect of defensive grenades if the majority has boarding shields. Sad, but makes sense, so I guess it'd have to rely on rolling Get of the Wyrm for the trait. --58.162.223.230 14:15, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Sweeping Advance and Tartaros[edit]

From what I can see, there's nothing in the Unwieldy rule or the rules for Sweeping Advance that disallow units of terminators with fists and THs from making Sweeping Advances, but the terminator unit entry here says that models armed with claws, swords and mauls will can SA. I'm wondering if this is old text that hasn't been updated to reflect potential changes in the rules, or if I'm missing something? If so, a page reference would be great.

I believe that passage more in reference to a specific build taking advantage of tartaros armour. I.e. claws etc to fuck power armoured troops then sweep them. But yes, 100% specific weapons dont effect your ability to sweep or not.

As the other anon said, weapons do not affect your sweeping advance, the advice is a general statement to encourage non-unwieldy weapons since AP 2 available to regular units (aside from Legion specific gear) is Unwieldy itself. It could be made clearer though. -- Triacom (talk) 22:03, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Moritats and New Rules[edit]

Assuming the Moritat of the DarkAngels can benefit from the Scions upgrades, because they are not warlordtraits or blessings. I wonder if there is a paticularly good combo ASIDE from Breaker of Witches (which should be renamed "Wrecker of Bitches"). Any Ideas?

There aren't any good combos for them in either of the Scion rules, Breaker of Witches only activates in close combat and so does not work in regard to their Chain Fire (or anything else for that matter). -- Triacom (talk) 10:48, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Excindio Automata[edit]

I was going to edit the main article but I wanted to double check I'm not missing something. Currently the section about the Excindio seems to imply that it gets multiple bonus attacks for having (up to) 4 melee weapons. Only walkers can stack the multi-melee weapon bonus, unless I'm missing a rule somewhere or completely misunderstanding what's being said? This means there's no reason not to swap at least one pair of melee weapons for a gun. Other than points.--Bokkn (talk) 06:01, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Good thing you checked, the Manipulator Arms have a special rule that for each arm, the Excindio Automata gains an extra attack (with a different profile though). So it gets 1 bonus attack for two close combat weapons, then 2 more from the Manipulator Arms. -- Triacom (talk) 06:31, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
That makes sense - I don't have a copy of the book, RIP. Does the manipulator arms count as actual weapons, or just wargear? I.e. if you swap one set of arms out and only have a 1 fist + manipulator arm, would you still get the dual weapon bonus? --Bokkn (talk) 06:54, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
It counts as wargear, not an actual weapon, the exact wording is as follows: "For each manipulator arm it has, an Excindio may make a single additional attack per turn as well as any others it would normally be able to make. These additional attacks are made using the profile shown below:". So having one Close Combat weapon and one Manipulator Arm would not give you the two CCW bonus attack. -- Triacom (talk) 07:04, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

The Cross of Bone ROW[edit]

I was going to add a bit more to the Nightlord section to flesh out the changes with book 9. But what the fuck is the point of this ROW? The +1 attack for IC's is just OK, but extra troop tax is not ideal, the consolidation restriction can get you killed and the VP for warlord kill rule is unreliable at best.
The extra elite slots seem to only exist to allow for cheesey tactics like spamming rapier or 5 million rad missile techmarine squads. Non-Mortis dreads are already in talons, and termies/vets can be spammed in a POTL ROW without the triple troop tax.That leaves a pretty limited selection of units to take advantage of those slots.
Are there there any non-gimmicky ways to use this ROW effectively?

I think you've got it, that seems to be the only real purpose of it. You either get more Elites you can't get through other Rites, or you just don't use it. -- Triacom (talk) 07:23, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Arquitor Bombard with Barrage?[edit]

Discussion of it here says it lacks it, but current datasheet on Battlescribe lists the Bombard as having Barrage in both profiles - is important for things like Ironfire so idk if anyone can clarify?--Vasari Vorastra Kultorask (talk) 19:35, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Might be because you're talking about an entirely different weapon, by chance? --2001:8003:1D0D:301:200A:F1EA:5534:D124 10:16, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
Cheers, my bad! --Vasari Vorastra Kultorask (talk) 10:20, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Why Dark Brethren is one of the best Rite of War's[edit]

I thought I talked about this here, but maybe it got buried under topics or deleted so I'll post it again. The Dark Brethren Rite of War, despite being janky, is unironically one of the best Rites of War in the game, and I'll go over why. For starters, Flutist brought up how it compares to other Legions like Blood Angels Day of Revelation, and I thought I'd do the math on that:

  • 7 Blood Angels Assault Marines with Chaplain and Day of Revelation:
21 attacks, 15.75 hits, 10.5 wounds, 3.5 unsaved wounds.
Three AP 2 Weapons (2 axes and unit Lieutenant): 10 attacks, 7.5 hits, 6.25 wounds.
Total: 9.75 unsaved wounds to MEQ's on the charge.
  • 7 Word Bearers Assault Marines with Dark Channelling Strength Boost, Chaplain, and Dark Brethren:
21 attacks, 15.75 hits, 12.25 wounds, 4.083 unsaved wounds.
Three Strength boosted AP 2 Weapons (2 axes and unit Lieutenant): 10 attacks, 7.5 hits, 7.291 wounds.
Total: 11.374 unsaved wounds to MEQ's on the charge.
  • 7 Word Bearers Assault Marines with Dark Channelling Zealot Boost, and Dark Brethren (no Chaplain needed):
21 attacks, 15.75 hits, 9.187 wounds, 3.062 unsaved wounds.
Three AP 2 Weapons (2 axes and unit Lieutenant): 10 attacks, 7.5 hits, 5.833 wounds.
Total: 8.895 unsaved wounds to MEQ's on the charge.
  • 7 Word Bearers Assault Marines with Dark Channelling Strength Boost, and Dark Brethren (no Chaplain used):
21 attacks, 12.25 hits, 9.527 wounds, 3.175 unsaved wounds
Three AP 2 Weapons (2 axes and unit Lieutenant): 10 attacks, 5.833 hits, 5.671 wounds.
Total: 8.846 unsaved wounds to MEQ's on the charge.

As you can see the numbers are either comparable, or the Word Bearers actually outperform them by a substantial amount. Before anyone points out I didn't include Hammer of Wrath, that's because it's not needed. If I include Hammer of Wrath I might as well include the shooting, and point out how even before they charge, the Word Bearers would be doing substantially more damage with their Smite/Plasma Pistols/Aetherkine Projector (which Dark Brethren allows them to reroll so they don't suffer Perils) because Dark Brethren boosts those attacks as well. I also didn't include the Chaplain duel because that's pretty much a coin flip, whoever charges wins. If neither of them charge however, then the Word Bearers Chaplain wins as he can get a Power Fist for Instant Death and Empathic Bonds for Eternal Warrior, whereas the BA Chaplain has to go with the Blade of Perdition (and a charge) to kill the Word Bearers Chaplain before he can attack (and that's assuming the Word Bearers Chaplain gets no Biomancy buffs). Which Assault Squad will win in this sort of fight (BA vs WB) depends entirely on who gets the charge, which is usually the case for melee legions duking it out.

If you want to try and argue that something like Grey Slayers can outperform them, then I'd point out that while that is true, Grey Slayers are not Jump Infantry, they cost more when they're geared out, and they can be shot off the table pretty easily by Dark Brethren boosted Support/Heavy Squads. They also still lose horribly to Word Bearers Assault Squads if they're charged, and since they're not jump infantry that's more likely to happen than not (and then the Word Bearers get their Sweeping Advance bonus).

This is why Dark Brethren is one of the best Rites of War. It combines with the other Word Bearers buffs to lift them way up, to the point where they do as well, if not better, than dedicated melee legions. At the same time it buffs your guns if you need to shoot, it prevents you from getting hurt by Gets Hot and the Aetherkine Projector, and your characters can further boost the units with their Psychic Abilities from Burning Lore. If you get Endurance for example, you can eat a charge from the Blood Angels Assault Squad, and then still win the fight afterwards thanks to the rerolls you get on every round (whereas the Blood Angels only get them on the first). On top of this, it shuts down enemy Psykers (get Psyk-out Grenades if you want to force Perils on them) so enemies cannot use their own buffs to counter yours. -- Triacom (talk) 23:41, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

As I understand it though, this is only ultimately scalable as far as you can get IC's into the army, with the coin-flip odds of maybe getting the PE for one additional unit. If I've understood the units with IC correctly, it's basically hard-capped at four with 3 HQ's + Lorgar if you were maxing it out as Apothecaries and Techmarines aren't IC's? Plus with at least two of those HQ requirements likely melee specialised (Diabolist and Chaplain), and all their named subs being also specialised this way, and Lorgar normally going in some variation of his deathstar, it's difficult to justify an IC which could reliably give you re-rolls on a big Plasma squad a la a MoS or Siege Breaker (assuming Lorgar is acting as your MoL to bring the rite, without him you're locked into a 3rd melee HQ with Praetor or named equivalent), especially with the one HS slot and no allies except Daemons making the Praevian that much more tempting? Maths for assault squads works fine on the tactical level and in small games, and you can make the predator satiation argument that squads just with Dark Channeling are still pretty strong, but for that you could just take a Diabolist in Angels Wrath / Drop Company Vanguard. I'm just not seeing the scalability for the claim that it's one of the best RoW's. Perils going off for enemy psykers more often does help there too, especially against TS. Please let me know if I've missed something!--Vasari Vorastra Kultorask (talk) 00:49, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
The scalability isn't an issue in the majority of games. As you say, you have 3 characters, which means at any time you can give 3 squads PE based on what you need and where, plus the coin flip. It's rather rare for 2000 point lists and even 3000 point lists to have more than 4 units that you need PE on (since at 3000 points you might as well bring Lorgar who also benefits from the Rite), and after the fighting starts, you can move your characters to the units that need them the most, even if it's a shooting unit on an objective. You only start to have units who want PE going without it in games of 5000 points and higher, but by then you're adding Titans to the table and the scale is already off for the other armies mentioned above as well. In short, the vast majority of lists you'll make with the 2000-3000 point scale has 2-3 big assault units and possibly some shooting if you want them (if you take heavier vehicles you definitely will not have more than 3 units who'll greatly benefit from PE), and that fits the Word Bearers characters nicely since you'll almost always have 3 IC's, and optionally Lorgar. By the way, a Diabolist with this Rite of War is more powerful than a Master of Signal if you put him in something like a plasma squad, even though the MoS is meant to buff ranged units. Same goes for the Chaplain, they're good in melee and they can play the ranged game too. Don't forget you can also get them Smite for some decent ranged damage so that they can contribute with the squad they're buffing. Out of curiosity though, what's a Word Bearers list you run that will be affected negatively by only 4 Preferred Enemy buffs you can give? I'm genuinely curious. -- Triacom (talk) 01:06, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
I decided to show the math on the difference between a Word Bearers character and a Master of Signal. Let's start with a MoS on a standard squad with just bolters:
10 Marines shooting at long range will hit 8.333 times, and wound 4.166 times for 1.388 unsaved wounds on MEQ's. Conversely, a Word Bearers character with Dark Brethren will cause that same squad to hit 7.777 times, wound 4.534 times for 1.511 unsaved wounds on MEQ's. If you're curious how they compare with plasma squads, a Master of Signal boosted plasma squad (at just five Marines at long range) hits 4.166 times, and wounds 3.472 times whereas a Dark Brethren squad hits 3.888 times and wounds 3.78 times. At the same time, the Word Bearers character doesn't need to give up his own shooting to buff the squad, and if he has a great weapon like an Aetherkine Projector he can deal out 2.268 AP 2 wounds on his own, assuming you go with 3 warp charges, if you pump 4 warp charges into it then he deals 3.78 AP 2 wounds on his own, which is identical damage to a support plasma squad, so you effectively double the damage of the squad like this.
One more thing, on average a squad of plasma Marines on average loses one Marine every two turns to Gets Hot, whereas a Dark Brethren boosted Support Squad loses one Marine to Gets Hot every four turns, and since games don't last eight turns (barring specific circumstances) you'll take two fewer casualties with Dark Brethren than without, meaning you've effectively saved 60+ points which isn't nothing. You can buy 2 Dark Channelling's and a Power Axe for that amount.
In closing, Dark Brethren makes the Word Bearers characters better at buffing ranged units than actual characters who specialize in the role, and they keep great combat potential as well. Even if you want to run a pure ranged list it's actually better to go Dark Brethren plus Burning Lore for all three characters than it is to try and get characters meant to boost ranged units. -- Triacom (talk) 01:33, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
Mathhammer is nice and all, but you're missing several key things: first, all of WB upgrades are paid in points, unlike free LA of other melee legions, and Dark Brethren is very restricting, forcing to take either sub-par Unique Characters (none of which has a Jump Pack, so no synergy with the best Troops choice) or taking up all your HQ slots and effectively overwriting Diabolist buffing potential. Second, all not-Power Axes wounds from charging BA Assault Squad will be at I5, and there won't be any Chaplain duel at the first turn, because it would be either Chaplain vs Sergeant or Sergeant vs Sergeant. There's a difference between "winning the assault due to more attacks from charge" and "winning the assault with no casualties due to I5". Third, I can see you've never had your share of 60-80 dirt-cheap Grey Slayers (why do you think they're expensive? Are you planning on giving each one a Power Weapon and a Combat Shield?) flooding the board, with 3 wound HQs armed with not-I1 AP2 that give both FNP and Preferred Enemy without any Rites needed. With Bloodied Claws their movement is almost as good as Jump Infantry (10.5 vs 12). Rerollable charges from are just insult to injury at this point. Unless you know what's coming and brought things like Fire Raptors it's very hard to stop them, especially with 1 Heavy Support choice of Dark Brethren. I'm not saying Dark Brethren is bad, but I wouldn't call it "one of the strongest" if we are factoring other legions special rules, equipment, etc, as we should in the first place. --Flutist (talk) 11:18, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
To go over these points, I'm aware it's paid in points, however I'm also aware that they receive more buffs than it initially appears. There is no other melee legion that receives free buffs to the degree that WB receive their paid buffs, and it's rather easy to make their points back with those buffs. Dark Brethren being restrictive in HQ's doesn't really mean anything, many RoW's are restrictive, but that doesn't mean they're bad. Furthermore, as I pointed out above, you can have a Word Bearer's character in a non-assault squad and still contribute really well so long as the unit they're in has decent shooting. Everyone effectively becomes a better Master of Signal so long as Dark Brethren is chosen so even somebody like Zardu Layak in the back will have a purpose. Now for the Blood Angels I5 attacks, what kind of MEQ squad are you killing that only has 3 wounds? I posted the math separately for AP 2 weapons specifically because Blood Angels will be taking attacks in return, but since you're pretending they're not, I hate to break it to you, but even if the Blood Angels charged the Word Bearers Assault Squad listed above, they would deal 9.75 unsaved wounds, and take 7.436 unsaved wounds in return (8.003 wounds if we include Overwatch). In other words, the majority of the squad would be dead, possibly the entire squad depending on the psychic powers of the Word Bearer's Chaplain. Your winning the assault with no casualties due to I5 example simply isn't happening. As for the Grey Slayers, I didn't say they were expensive, I said they cost more when they're geared out. I'd really appreciate it if you didn't keep putting words in my mouth since this is the second time now (the first being when you claimed I said Dark Brethren was the 'best' Rite of War when I didn't). As for the units and their HQ's, Priests of Fenris are not as good as Word Bearers Chaplains in a Dark Channelling squad for a number of reasons. 1) Chaplains give a much better bonus to hit than Priests do, 2) Priests cannot gain Jump Packs like a Chaplain can (so they lose a hell of a lot of mobility), 3) Chaplains can gain a number of useful psychic powers, whereas deploying a Priest with psychic powers against Dark Brethren is just asking for Instant Death to kill him, especially if the Word Bearers get Psyk-out grenades, 4) Priests of Fenris are Initiative 4, whereas Chaplains (even before buffs) are Initiative 5 so they'll be killing MEQ's before they can attack, and 5) adding a Priest to a Grey Slayer unit means they can no longer get their Rhino, and are going to be shot at as they cross the table. Yes Feel No Pain is great on them, and Preferred Enemy is really good, but let's not pretend they have a monopoly on Feel No Pain, they pay quite a bit for it as well as PE on an otherwise sub-par HQ, and the Space Wolves still have the same problem the Blood Angels and Word Bearers melee squads do which is that they lose whenever they don't get the charge. As for the Bloodied Claws Rite of War, that's not nearly as good as Jump Infantry, you're getting 1-2 one use abilities to make up for otherwise poor mobility, especially if you're skipping transports. If you time it right then they'll be game changers, but they don't have the same effect as having 12" movement throughout the entire game from start to finish (or Hammer of Wrath on the charge). You also don't need more than one Heavy Support choice to stop the Grey Slayers, even with FNP they're not particularly durable over other MEQ squads with an Apothecary and you can still deal with them using cheap solutions like a Dreadnought with a Flamestorm Cannon or two (since Dark Brethren does not limit your Elites and Flamestorm Cannons melt Grey Slayers, not to mention Dreadnoughts in general fuck with that Rite of War pretty hard) or you can invest in more shooting like a plasma squad with a Praetor using an Aetherkine Projector (which Dark Brethren protects him from). That sort of Dark Brethren squad at short range pumps out 11.34 AP 2 wounds (also 2.646 wounds on Overwatch, so the only model in the Grey Slayer squad who makes it into combat will statistically die to the Praetor before they can attack), and that's before you start adding Marines to it. Grey Slayers are strong, but they're not an "I'm going to win as soon as I deploy my army" kind of strong, even against mostly offensive opponents. In closing, when you factor in other legions special rules, equipment, etc, "as we should in the first place", it is still one of the best Rites of War since it combines to give some of the biggest boosts in the game to its Legion. -- Triacom (talk) 12:41, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
Yeah, there are no melee legions that receive more free buffs than WB get paid ones. They still can stack up odds in their favour by actually spending those points. Dark Brethren being restrictive means that you're spending a ton of points on HQ to gain buffs for your squads and subsequently investing in those squads to gain the most from those buffs, limiting your choices as a result. Said squads still remain T4 3+ marines, maybe with a nice added benefit of 5++ of FNP. I won't even mention things you don't leave home without in Heavy Support, like Sicaran Arcus. Having 200 pts character just to babysit Tactical Support Squad is a crutch to make him moderately useful and not to waste points spent on him. TSS were never point-efficient to begin with. As for the math provided and BA's I5, simply deduct 3 Assault Marines (AM) killed by BA squad and and 2 AMs killed by BA Chaplain, then run the math again. Compared to trading blows on I4, BA's casualties are now lower, aren't they? And all that assuming BA's player is a moron who did not utilize his advantage in initiative by buying at least one Power Sword. As for the Grey Slayers - they cost more than what squad, exactly? Bare-bones Tacticals? As for "poor mobility", once again, it's 10,5 versus 12, with one or two turns of rerollable charges after making a Run move, and they cost as much as a Tactical Squad, while being able to buy loads of twice as cheap Power Weapons. They may be inferior to fully buffed WB squad, but they're more cost efficient. Dreadnought with 12 front armor is a joke, I'd like to see it survive for more than one turn after stepping out of a Drop Pod. I also struggle to remember "I'm going to win as soon as I deploy my army" kind of strong units in this game, barring some Custodes units pre-nerf. To sum up, if you really think Preferred Enemy (which you're not guaranteed to get even when playing against other Space Marines as per actual rulebook) and one random buff is what it takes to talk about some of the biggest boosts in the game to its Legion, the one that has no unique melee weapons to write home about and relies on random tables of psychic powers to get an edge, I'm still unconvinced. But I will try fielding Dark Brethren with Layak in several next games and test that theory. --Flutist (talk) 16:06, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
The closest that melee legions can get by actually spending points is being comparable to Word Bearers without actually reaching the heights they can reach. As I showed in that example above, Word Bearers do outperform Blood Angels when you get an optimal roll, and it's not that hard to do, you'll likely end up getting it on at least one Assault Squad and even if you don't, the damage is still pretty high. The same goes for the Space Wolves, if they stack all their buffs, they can deal almost as much damage on an Assault Squad, although they end up having restrictions there too. Yes Dark Brethren limits your choices somewhat, but you know what? It's not actually that bad at all. All your characters are better at buffing ranged units than a Master of Signal so you can still play the ranged game if you really want to, and if you did want to diversify your list, you could just take a named character, and sit somebody like Erebus back with a Support Squad to give them buffs while you get two other HQ's of your choice. The only actual restrictive part of the list is being allowed only one Heavy Support choice, but even then you can still get 3 tanks or even Land Raiders thanks to how the Horus Heresy lists have those in groups. "Having 200 pts character just to babysit Tactical Support Squad is a crutch to make him moderately useful-" Hold up, I take issue with this. A Praetor in a Plasma Support Squad with a power weapon, Burning Lore and Aetherkine Projector costs 170 points, and he also saves the squad from losing two marines on average thanks to Gets Hot, which means putting him there saves you 60+ points. In effect he's a 110 point investment, whereas a Master of Signal with Artificer Armour (and not even a power weapon) is a 105 point investment. That's a massive win no matter how you look at it, he costs 5 points more, gives a better buff, and deals a ton of damage when he shoots because his buff doesn't prevent him from shooting. He might also roll a super useful power like Endurance as well, or Enfeeble which would allow his squad to Instant Death enemy MEQ's and bypass FNP plus those extra wounds the Priests can get. "TSS were never point-efficient to begin with." That depends on what you do and who you shoot. Saving 60+ points by not blowing up two guys per game and possibly being able to ID MEQ's is pretty huge. Even if you can't do that, there's always the chance for getting Endurance, and if you don't manage that then the Aetherkine Projector lets the squad put out so much damage they gun down Cataphractii squads in one turn. "As for the math provided and BA's I5, simply deduct 3 Assault Marines (AM) killed by BA squad and and 2 AMs killed by BA Chaplain, then run the math again." If I did that I'd also be deducting Marines killed in Overwatch and by the Word Bearer Chaplain, but since you wanted it, sure. The results are 5.87 unsaved wounds caused before the Word Bearers counterattack, and in their counterattack the Word Bearers deal 9.429 unsaved wounds at the same time as the Blood Angels AP 2 weapons in the Assault Squad. That's still losing practically everybody, and that's with the Blood Angels getting the charge. Incidentally if the BA player bought one power sword instead, they still take 8.263 unsaved wounds in return. I'm sorry to say, but I'm not seeing this winning the assault with no casualties due to I5 example you seem to suggest exists. "As for the Grey Slayers - they cost more than what squad, exactly? Bare-bones Tacticals?" When they are geared up I said. "As for "poor mobility", once again, it's 10,5 versus 12, with one or two turns of rerollable charges after making a Run move," I'm not exactly where you keep getting 10.5 inches from, an average run bonus on the Grey Slayers is 9.5 and they cannot bypass intervening terrain while they do it. That's a difference of 2.5 inches, 3.5 if we include the penalty of charging after running which means that Assault Marines still have significantly more mobility on them. "They may be inferior to fully buffed WB squad, but they're more cost efficient." That depends on what you want them for. If you need to take down a Death Guard Reaping list, I can say from experience they absolutely are not. "Dreadnought with 12 front armor is a joke, I'd like to see it survive for more than one turn after stepping out of a Drop Pod." You don't put it in a Drop Pod, you place it with your other units because it's pretty cheap, and your enemy can't ignore it if they have to close the distance with certain squads. This means that the Dreadnoughts will either be targeted above your Assault Squads with ranged assets, or they'll be ignored in favour of targeting your Assault Squads since that's where your points are, and either way this is a win for you if your opponent is running a Grey Slayers list. There's usually only one model per unit in Grey Slayers who is capable of hurting it, and they're likely to get killed before that even happens. To make it better, putting the Dreadnoughts up front with enough distance between them and your other squads forcing the Grey Slayers to charge in Bloodied Claws, which in turn forces them to take Wall of Death from a flamer that wounds on 2's and ignores their armour. If they don't make it, then you get another turn of BBQ'ing them. "To sum up, if you really think Preferred Enemy (which you're not guaranteed to get even when playing against other Space Marines as per actual rulebook)" Yes you are, as per the actual rulebook one side must always be Loyalists, and the other side must always be Traitors, no matter what, even if you're playing a Custodes mirror match. Since the Word Bearers must always be Traitors, this means you will get the bonus when you play against Marines. "and one random buff is what it takes to talk about some of the biggest boosts in the game to its Legion," I've said multiple times now that it's the way the buffs combine with the rest of the Word Bearers Legion that makes it so strong. If Dark Channelling and Burning Lore didn't exist, it wouldn't be as strong. For some reason you insist on comparing just Dark Brethren to other Legions as a whole, while trying to only look at Dark Brethren in a vacuum. It allows you to get psychic domination on a battlefield, while taking away the vast majority of risk in items (like the Aetherkine Projector) and it stacks with your existing buffs to allow you to cause way more damage than you otherwise could. That's what makes it so strong. "the one that has no unique melee weapons to write home about and relies on random tables of psychic powers to get an edge," Getting an extra attack on models with a Specialist Weapon is actually good (since that's the main advantage of Tainted Weapons), especially when they can re-roll part of their to-hit and to-wound rolls. Also don't forget that you can give Word Bearers characters Eternal Warrior thanks to Empath Bonds, and I'm sure you can agree that is a massive boost. "and relies on random tables of psychic powers to get an edge, I'm still unconvinced. But I will try fielding Dark Brethren with Layak in several next games and test that theory." The psychic tables are quite good though, you can always find a use for Biomancy at least, regardless of what you roll. I wouldn't recommend Layak however, he's more of a fluffy choice in my opinion. I love the the model but I've yet to see him work as well as a regular Chaplain/Diabolist since I usually just give them Biomancy. -- Triacom (talk) 19:59, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
Well I'm convinced! I also just bought Lorgar as my first WB model recently - curious as to how you'd build a list along these lines? --Vasari Vorastra Kultorask (talk) 22:52, 9 October 2021 (UTC)
Honestly Lorgar is one of those models you can do pretty much whatever you want with, and whenever I use him I just try to focus on a fun list. For some serious advice though, Lorgar doesn't combo well with lists that try to go all in on serious Deathstars, he's not at home in a list that build themselves entirely around a lot of Gal Vorbak for example. He is a fantastic shooter and army buffer however, as a quick example, put him in a Plasma Squad with Foreboding, and not only does he give them the same buff the other Word Bearers characters do, but they'll fire Overwatch at full BS. For context this means a squad of 5 will kill 15.12 Marines if those Marines try to charge them (since they should get one Rapid-fire round of shooting before being charged) all while he gives extra charge range and combat resolution to anyone who can draw Line of Sight to him. As for his other powers, besides Foreboding, Forewarning, Misfortune and Psychic Maelstrom are all good powers for him, especially since it's easier for him to use the higher Warp Charge abilities (and his extra BS helps with the scatter). He can still only have three abilities so which ones you choose depends on your army and your opponents, but those four are my favourites, especially Misfortune. As a quick example, a Heavy Support squad shooting Volkite Culverins causes 4.732 unsaved wounds on average to Marines, but a Word Bearers Dark Brethren squad shooting Volkite Culverins at a Misfortunate squad causes 9.624 unsaved wounds on average. That's more than double the amount of Wounds a regular squad can pump out, though I'm just using this as an example. You're better off using something like Predators for your Heavy Support squad. As for more on the army as a whole, while running Lorgar and a Marine heavy list is very fun, you do need to remember to include counters for things like fliers, heavier armour and don't forget to get some units for holding objectives. You can get around this in a few ways, such as using combi-weapons on the Sergeants and/or characters, or traditional cheaper counters such as Rapier Laser Destroyers or even Predators for your heavy support support slot (get enough Predator Cannon shots and they will end up hitting and killing Fliers anyway). This is one of the reasons I like Tactical Support Squads, they can shoot while Lorgar protects them with a 4+ invuln and saves them from getting charged, and they can hold down objectives while your Assault Squads advance. Another thing on the Assault Squads, I'm not sure what point scale you're playing at, but don't feel like you need to max out three Assault Squads for your three HQ's. On lower points (2000-2500) Two squads that are built up are usually pretty good enough while you have some shooters in the backfield or Dreadnoughts moving up with your Assault units. Flutist might not like them, but Dreadnoughts are a threat your opponent cannot afford to ignore (S6 AP3 flamers are not something anyone can let go), and they're also relatively cheap. That's just some advice I have to give, hope it helps, though above all I'd recommend playing a list that you like, with the exception that you should always avoid the Mhara Gal. It's way too pricey to make those points back unless you're playing Zone Mortalis. -- Triacom (talk) 04:16, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
being comparable to Word Bearers without actually reaching the heights they can reach Especially when you start losing Characters in challenges, because WB have no unique weapon comparable to aforementioned Blade of Perdition. do outperform Blood Angels when you get an optimal roll And paid for both Diabolist and Dark Channeling. they can deal almost as much damage on an Assault Squad ... and much cheaper. are better at buffing ranged units than a Master of Signal Or you could've taken a proper ranged support HQ if all your slots were not occupied, and double on that. sit somebody like Erebus back with a Support Squad Which means your opponent just received 200 points of advantage, nice. but even then you can still get 3 tanks or even Land Raiders I don't know about you, but I constantly fill all 3 Heavy Support slots, so it's huge "but". YMMV, of course. A Praetor in a Plasma Support Squad with a power weapon, Burning Lore and Aetherkine Projector costs 170 points You're skimping on Iron Halo and actual close combat weapons? Okay. We're looking at 345-500 points of MEQs with big "shoot me" sign above their heads that need to be in 12″ to be effective. Don't you see any problem there? That depends on what you do and who you shoot You have one or two turns of shooting before being wiped out to a man, whatever you do. Unless we go all the way to Anvilus or give them Land Raider as transport, I don't see it working.If I did that I'd also be deducting Marines killed in Overwatch All 0.55 of them? and by the Word Bearer Chaplain That is armed with the Power Fist apparently striking on I6 to affect I5 BA? in their counterattack the Word Bearers deal 9.429 unsaved wounds With what, I wonder? Even if we suggest no Power Axes wielding WB were killed in that initial attack, which is unlikely, we're looking at 0,55 wounds from surviving AM without PW, then 2,25 from PA, then 1,5 from PF-armed Sergeant, then another 2,27 from PF-armed Chaplain. That's 6,56, which is bad, but nowhere near 9.429. BA add 1,5 from one axe and 1,875 from PF-armed Sergeant. Word Bearers are likely to get wiped out the following Assault Phase. When they are geared up I said That's not an answer. But if we go with the gear of Assault Squad from example, that's 145 points as opposed to 210. where you keep getting 10.5 inches from The average roll of d6 is 3,5. +1 from Hunter's Gait. Not rocket science. they cannot bypass intervening terrain while they do it Yeah, diff terrain is a bit of problem for them. On the other hand, it's not dangerous for them. if we include the penalty of charging after running I have a feeling re-roll compensates for that. If you need to take down a Death Guard Reaping list I don't think there would be much difference in those cases... you place it with your other units And it goes down even to Autocannons and Kheres Assault Cannons, never mind actual AT weapons. it's pretty cheap Cortus is cheaper and has a front armor of 13 and 5++. and either way this is a win for you if your opponent is running a Grey Slayers list The one that includes some cheap-yet-effective shooting like Javelins? The moment that Krak penetrates, your Dreadnaught is crippled one way or another. Since the Word Bearers must always be Traitors, this means you will get the bonus when you play against Marines. The other side can be Traitors as well, which may lead to a force of Word Bearers becoming count-as Loyalists. Getting an extra attack on models with a Specialist Weapon is actually good (since that's the main advantage of Tainted Weapons) True. It's also true extra attack can be acquired by other means just as easily. you can give Word Bearers characters Eternal Warrior thanks to Empath Bonds That's also true, it was a great buff. you can always find a use for Biomancy at least, regardless of what you roll That's pretty obvious. The problem is you can't predict what exactly you're getting and plan around it. And unlike Thousand Sons, you have exactly one chance to roll something you want. I wouldn't recommend Layak however, he's more of a fluffy choice Layak was great pre-nerf, and with playtest rules Ashen Circle is nothing short of fantastic, especially when taken as Troops. He also has ML of 2 and can summon Daemons more reliably than regular Diabolist.--Flutist (talk) 12:41, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
They don't need a weapon comparable to the Blade of Perdition, they have Empath Bonds and Psychic Powers and even just those two things alone allow their generic characters to beat any Blood Angels generic character, even if they don't roll optimally on Biomancy. Even that Biomancy roll being bad is unlikely, since the powers are either combat boosting ones that let them win even without Empath Bonds, or they can cause a wound to the enemy character before the battle with a focused witchfire. The only one that's negative in those regards is Life Leech, but that will just help them heal after they win. Yes they pay for both Diabolist and Dark Channelling, which is why they deal more damage than dedicated melee legions with Dark Brethren. Most Legions do need to pay for their bonuses in some way, even the Blade of Perdition costs almost as much as Dark Channelling for a squad. "... and much cheaper." Not really, the Word Bearers Assault Squad costs 25 points more, I wouldn't call that much cheaper. "Or you could've taken a proper ranged support HQ if all your slots were not occupied, and double on that." You could, which is why you can take Erebus/Kor Phaeron if you want to get a ranged support HQ or two. This is part of the reason why the Rite isn't actually restrictive, there's ways to get around its downsides. "Which means your opponent just received 200 points of advantage, nice." Hang on a minute, do you believe support HQ's are useless? Because they definitely are not, and that was just an example. You can still run Erebus up with another squad while getting different support HQ's for your ranged assets since he fulfills all the needs for Dark Brethren on his own. "I don't know about you, but I constantly fill all 3 Heavy Support slots, so it's huge "but". YMMV, of course." That'll be a difference of opinion then. I started playing Death Guard's The Reaping so most of the Heavy Support units I actually used became Troops. I don't dislike the Heavy Support options, I just find myself rarely using them aside from Sky Slayers (which I just personally like), Predator Tanks, and Medusas. A lot of what you might need Heavy Support for can also be accomplished by Elites units, so losing out on some Heavy Support slots isn't that big a deal unless its your personal playstyle to use a lot of them. "You're skimping on Iron Halo and actual close combat weapons? Okay." Yes, because he's a support HQ. He's not meant to get into combat with more than stragglers and his primary role is ranged damage and unlocking the Rite. His protection comes from positioning and Look Out Sir's rather than trying to tank the damage himself. "We're looking at 345-500 points of MEQs with big "shoot me" sign above their heads that need to be in 12″ to be effective. Don't you see any problem there?" No, and I'm not sure how much math you do on the matter, but squads meant to kill Marines do not do nearly as much damage as most people imagine. An example would be a Heavy Support squad with Krak missiles. They obviously kill MEQ's, but the reality is they only do 2.777 unsaved wounds, which is a full wound less than a Word Bearers plasma squad at long range. Even a maxed out tactical squad using Fury of the Legion only deals 2.222 unsaved wounds at long range, which again, is much less than a Word Bearers plasma squad. They do not need to be within 12" to be effective, they just become devastating within 12". "You have one or two turns of shooting before being wiped out to a man, whatever you do." Not really, but to prove this point, let's look at an example. In the Grey Slayers rush list, how many Grey Slayers can they kill before the Slayers reach them? Well they'll get two shots off, one at long range, one at short range, so how much damage is that? Well assuming you get more Marines in there but don't go over the limit to fit into a Rhino, 9 Marines will do 6.805 AP2 wounds, 5.671 wounds get through the combat shields, 3.78 wounds get through FnP. The Praetor adds an additional 2.1 unsaved wounds, so that's 5.88 unsaved wounds done at long range. The squad gets to do another 9.66 unsaved wounds at short range, for 15.54 unsaved wounds total, and then they get overwatch. Overwatch on short range deals 3.402 wounds, 2.835 wounds go through the combat shields, 1.89 go through the FnP for 17.43 unsaved wounds before combat starts, and since the WB Praetor has the highest initiative and will declare a challenge, he'll occupy at least one model. He'll do another 1.344 with a power axe. That wound will probably be allocated to the Sergeant or Priest, so we'll assume 2 Grey Slayers can swing back with power swords. The Grey Slayers deal 3 AP3 wounds, and take 0.680 in return. By this point the TSS has taken 3 wounds, and the Grey Slayers have taken 19.11, or 19.79 if the TSS has bought the combat blades. Either way, the last Grey Slayer deals 0.5 damage on the next combat round, and should they last one more round they will deal 4 wounds total. If the Priest is allowed to attack once before he gets in Challenge with the Praetor, then the TSS squad will take an additional 2.222 wounds total. At the end of the combat, the 20-man Grey Slayer squad will have been wiped out to a man, the Priest will be dead, and at worst, the plasma support squad will be left with 3 Marines, and a Praetor. They can still pump out 2.268 for the plasma marines at long range, plus the Praetor for 6.048 wounds and long range, and 8.316 wounds at short range, all of which are AP2. This isn't exactly the squad "being wiped out to a man, whatever you do." Now is it? I gave the Space Wolves an optimal engagement, and didn't mention how you can stop this from happening in the first place by just standing a Dreadnought in the way (since this is done with the Bloodied Claws Rite of War, otherwise the Space Wolves do worse) since only one of the models in that 21 man squad is capable of hurting it. "That is armed with the Power Fist apparently striking on I6 to affect I5 BA" No, the Chaplain isn't going to get killed immediately since the Sergeant can take a challenge from the BA Chaplain if he makes one, and regular Assault Marines aren't capable of killing a Chaplain even if they can allocate attacks to him. As such the Chaplain is going to swing once even at I1. "With what, I wonder?" I'll break it down: 0.831 unsaved wounds caused from Overwatch on 11 bolt pistols or 0.945 unsaved wounds if the Chaplain has a plasma pistol (unlikely, I'll grant, though with PE the plasma pistol gets a lot better). 0.777 unsaved wounds from the two regular Assault Marines, 5.103 unsaved wounds from the AP 2 weapons, 2.592 unsaved wounds from the Chaplain, and added together, this equals 9.303 unsaved wounds total, or 9.417 unsaved wounds if the Chaplain has a plasma pistol. I must have slightly miscalculated one result initially, but broken down like this the result is pretty clearly 9 dead Blood Angels, nearly the entire squad being wiped. I'm legitimately confused by your math, you say the regular WB AM cause 0.55 wounds, but they have 4 attacks (two Marines with a pistol and CCW), they hit 3 times (because Zealot), wound 2.333 times (because +1 Strength with Preferred Enemy) and cause 0.777 wounds against power armour. "That's not an answer. But if we go with the gear of Assault Squad from example, that's 145 points as opposed to 210." I'm not answering something I never said. If you just go with a 145 point Grey Slayer squad then you're not giving them any extra Marines, but if that's what you want, then you're right, those ones are cheaper. "The average roll of d6 is 3,5. +1 from Hunter's Gait. Not rocket science." Thank you, I'd actually forgotten about Hunter's Gait, my mistake. "I have a feeling re-roll compensates for that." That depends on how far you're charging. Most of the time it is, unless you're going for longer-ranged charges in which case it isn't. "I don't think there would be much difference in those cases..." Oh there definitely is. Having played the list the best defence against them is cover, by which I mean literally hiding as many models as possible (you'll still lose many models), and it's much harder to get in combat with them when you can't just hop over the terrain to reach them. "And it goes down even to Autocannons and Kheres Assault Cannons, never mind actual AT weapons." Good, it means those weapons aren't shooting your Assault Squads so they'll get to move up and dive in. "Cortus is cheaper and has a front armor of 13 and 5++." Check the gear, Cortus' don't have access to Flamestorm Cannons. "The one that includes some cheap-yet-effective shooting like Javelins? The moment that Krak penetrates, your Dreadnaught is crippled one way or another." Possibly. If you're using Javelins on a Dreadnought you need to use 3 to have a good chance of shaking/stunning it (let alone actually destroying the weapon which is much lower), and even then it can still move and charge. Furthermore, the issue with the Dreadnought is not just the Flamestorm Cannon, it's also the fact that the Grey Slayers will be forced to charge it if it's within range and other units aren't, and Grey Slayers suck hard at killing Dreadnoughts. Even if your opponent is using Krak Missiles on the Dreadnought and manage to kill it however, that's still good. It means they're not killing your Assault Marines. "The other side can be Traitors as well," Well if we're getting into the realm of things you have to discuss with your opponent, that is a possibility. It would require a real shithead opponent though. "True. It's also true extra attack can be acquired by other means just as easily." Not for everybody, and those options are more expensive. There are characters who have no option of getting a second specialist weapon aside from the Tainted Weapon, and the Tainted Weapon still comes in handy in the off-chance you roll Iron Arm in the case of HQ's. You're not relying on rolling that, but you're saving some points and getting a possible massive boost to your damage in the process. "The problem is you can't predict what exactly you're getting and plan around it. And unlike Thousand Sons, you have exactly one chance to roll something you want." Here's a serious question, what's a bad roll for Biomancy? Let's say you want an Assault character. Literally every roll is a good roll, you have buffs for your character, healing in case you take a wound, and targeted damage for sniping out the Sergeant. Let's say you have a ranged character, like that Praetor I mentioned above. You get Smite no matter what, which is a great damage spell, and you're giving them an Aetherkine Projector anyway so if you roll buff abilities you won't be using them anyway unless you're getting in combat, in which case they'll still be useful. "Layak was great pre-nerf, and with playtest rules Ashen Circle is nothing short of fantastic, especially when taken as Troops." No argument there. When FW finally makes the Ashen Circle rules permanent then I would absolutely recommend him. -- Triacom (talk) 22:11, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
- Was gonna put my own Spin on this - if you have Assault Squads not maxed being lead by IC's is it not worth swapping them out for Ashen Circle and putting smth else in troops? (Just realised can only attach Chaplains and Moritats - still taking two leaves room for one Xiphon and the necessary HQ/LoW's without feeling too guilty about the spam). Shame Zardu's making Ashen Circle troops relies on him being the Warlord rather than just present IIRC?--Vasari Vorastra Kultorask (talk) 17:14, 10 October 2021 (UTC)
"Was gonna put my own Spin on this - if you have Assault Squads not maxed being lead by IC's is it not worth swapping them out for Ashen Circle and putting smth else in troops?" That depends, if you're using the playtest rules for the Ashen Circle then I'd absolutely recommend them. Unfortunately the regular Ashen Circle aren't worth it, and since their good rules are still in the playtesting category I try not to use them like that since they're not "official" yet. Also yes, Zardu's warlord trait is making the Ashen Circle into Troops and giving them the option to buy Dark Channelling. -- Triacom (talk) 22:11, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

they have Empath Bonds and Psychic Powers and even just those two things alone allow their generic characters to beat any Blood Angels generic character Both of them can fail you. And how exactly Empath Bound is going to save you from 4 unsaved wounds from charging BA Chaplain? they can cause a wound to the enemy character before the battle with a focused witchfire Nah, Haemorrhage is a bad power and isn't worth getting Perils. On top of that, any Focused Witchfires are made to take out regular mooks with special weapons, because Look Out Sir! exists. but that will just help them heal after they win You're awfully optimistic. Praetors can make use of Life Leech because of 3W and 4++, but Chaplains and Centurions? Maybe if they were fighting a Sergeant. even the Blade of Perdition costs almost as much as Dark Channelling for a squad It costs more than Power Fist by 5 points. Dark Channeling is 2 Power Weapons and a Melta Bomb. Unless you're a Grey Slayer, in which case it's 5 Power Weapons. Not really, the Word Bearers Assault Squad costs 25 points more No, it doesn't? which is why you can take Erebus/Kor Phaeron Both are mediocre for their intended roles. But yes, you can save some points with Kor Phaeron. This is part of the reason why the Rite isn't actually restrictive Taking a supposedly melee HQ to hang in the back just to dance around RoW's restrictions? I'd say it's pretty restrictive, to be honest. do you believe support HQ's are useless No, but I believe specialists work better in their intended role, especially in a situation when a naked 50-points Centurion can be as effective as a 195 points Unique Character. I just find myself rarely using them aside from Sky Slayers (which I just personally like), Predator Tanks, and Medusas How do you take down Flyers then? Especially nasty ones like Lightnings? He's not meant to get into combat with more than stragglers and his primary role is ranged damage and unlocking the Rite So why give him PW at all? And with all that talk about Psykers giving advantage, you do realize you have a guy who need all your guaranteed Warp Charges to shoot effectively? His protection comes from positioning and Look Out Sir's Look out Sir's by 30-points models with no Invul save. I'm not sure how much math you do on the matter This one comes from experience. In the last game, for example, I was able to reduce 5-man squad of TSS with Sergeant in 2+ to 1 marine using one Tercio, one Strategos and one Multi-laser in one turn. Alternatively, the only cases my TSSs survive past turn 3 are either when playing against someone with no shooting to speak of or in Zone Mortalis. In the Grey Slayers rush list, how many Grey Slayers can they kill before the Slayers reach them? The right answer is NOT ENOUGH. Well they'll get two shots off, one at long range, one at short range, so how much damage is that? Once again, awfully optimistic. For your math to be true, you have to have the first turn and suffer absolutely no casualties. The whole simulation is therefore on "let's assume the average human is spherical"-level. Well assuming you get more Marines in there but don't go over the limit to fit into a Rhino They don't need a Rhino, it's just a wall of ceramite flooding the board in your general direction. If SW player really wants to bring the pain, he'll take Hvarl too.since the WB Praetor has the highest initiative and will declare a challenge, he'll occupy at least one model And if he lacks both Invul and Empathic Bonds, and Huscarl is armed with a Power Fist, Praetor is dead from 1,7 unsaved wounds from the Power Fist. If the Priest is allowed to attack once before he gets in Challenge with the Praetor, then the TSS squad will take an additional 2.222 wounds total 3,78 with Great frost blade. This isn't exactly the squad "being wiped out to a man, whatever you do." Of course not, because there won't be honest 1-on-1 manfighting in this scenario. since only one of the models in that 21 man squad is capable of hurting it Melta Bombs take care of multiple problems. 0.831 unsaved wounds caused from Overwatch on 11 bolt pistols Wait a second, how do you get that number? My math doesn't add up. (unlikely, I'll grant, though with PE the plasma pistol gets a lot better) The main problem of firing Plasma Pistol in your Shooting Phase is killing the closest model in the enemy squad, therefore increasing the charge distance. I'm legitimately confused by your math, you say the regular WB AM cause 0.55 wounds Yeah, I made a mistake. 3,5 unsaved wounds from regular AM, 2,37 from Chaplain and 1,5 from sword, therefore BA inflict 7,37 wounds on Initiative step 5. So WB have no meatshields, and once again, it would be fortunate if no AM with Power Axes die. (because +1 Strength) Ah, my bad, I went with Assault Squad having Zealot as the most statistically likely option. I'm not answering something I never said. With all due respect, you're simply not answering my question. If you just go with a 145 point Grey Slayer squad then you're not giving them any extra Marines, but if that's what you want, then you're right, those ones are cheaper. What? Are we comparing 20-man squad of Grey Slayers and 10-man squad of Assault Marines now? Why?.. the best defence against them is cover So it has AP2-3 massed shooting as opposed to relying on weight of numbers? You said it yourself, HSS with Krak only does 2.777 unsaved wounds. you'll still lose many models That kind of list doesn't really care about losing models all that much. and it's much harder to get in combat with them when you can't just hop over the terrain to reach them That's true, if the board has a lot of Difficult Terrain, Grey Slayers are in trouble. Good, it means those weapons aren't shooting your Assault Squads so they'll get to move up and dive in I mean, shooting regular MEQ with a Lascannon seems like a waste. Cortus' don't have access to Flamestorm Cannons He also doesn't need to be in 8" to deal damage. If you're using Javelins on a Dreadnought you need to use 3 to have a good chance of shaking/stunning it Not really? One Javelin firing a Typhoon deals 0,64 Penetrating Hits. Add 0,27 from Multi-melta. It has Strafing Run, remember. and even then it can still move and charge. A Front Armor of 12 means melee with a big squads armed with Kraks is the last place you want to be. It would require a real shithead opponent though There are people who unironically think the "Traitor-only" bit is meant for Diabolist only, and that there can be Gal Vorbak squads in a Loyalist roster. Thankfully, no people like this in my community, and yet they exist in the Internet. I prefer to think they're trolling, but still. Not for everybody Lightning Claw is 5 points more than a Tainted Weapon, and can be used as a real weapon to mince MEQ. There are characters who have no option of getting a second specialist weapon aside from the Tainted Weapon Like?.. Chaplains can't take Tainted Weapon instead of Crozius. and the Tainted Weapon still comes in handy in the off-chance you roll Iron Arm in the case of HQ's The truth is, not really, unless you're going against biker-heavy list, Black Shields Chimerae, Mechanicum or Custodes (good luck taking on those in melee!). The two main options for Burning Lore are Praetor or Chaplain. Praetor generally will have Paragon Blade, and that makes him S8. Chaplains have Power Mauls, and if your WB Chaplain is not armed with one, Lorgar himself will beat you with Illuminarum. With Iron Arm Chaplain hits with S9, once again, ID'ing any regular marine. Here's a serious question, what's a bad roll for Biomancy? Hemorrhoid. Life Leech is also not that good. When FW finally makes the Ashen Circle rules permanent then I would absolutely recommend him Judging by the latest book, I'm fully expecting FW to screw us over. So I personally prefer to use them while special offer lasts. —Flutist (talk) 06:35, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

"Both of them can fail you. And how exactly Empath Bound is going to save you from 4 unsaved wounds from charging BA Chaplain?" Everything can fail you, statistically Empath Bonds and Psychic Powers will not. As for how it will save you from a charging BA Chaplain, it won't. My point was not winning that fight, it was that your claim of "winning the assault with no casualties due to I5" Is false because the BA lose nearly the entire squad. "Nah, Haemorrhage is a bad power and isn't worth getting Perils." That depends who you're playing against. If you're up against somebody who can ID you with the unit champion but nobody else, then it absolutely is worth it to try and kill them with Haemorrhage if it'll make the ensuing fight much easier. "On top of that, any Focused Witchfires are made to take out regular mooks with special weapons, because Look Out Sir! exists." I'd agree if they took LOS on a 2+ like Independent Characters do, but they don't. It's a 4+ which is still a good chance it kills a Power Weapon of some kind before the fight starts. Even if you don't want to chance it with the Sergeant, the unit itself is likely to contain a Power Weapon or two if it's geared for assault, and sniping that out will be helpful in the coming fight. "You're awfully optimistic. Praetors can make use of Life Leech because of 3W and 4++, but Chaplains and Centurions?" A Diabolist/Chaplain with Empath Bonds isn't that much less durable than a regular Praetor; they have a 2+/5++/3+++ save effectively, and if they or the Praetor are bonded to has Life Leech, they can make up the difference by bouncing the wound (or two) across the field and using that power to heal. Even if neither has Life Leech, if the third HQ has it they can heal one of the other two so long as they're within range. That's not being really optimistic, that's something I've done in games (granted most of the time I get a wound back it's used to heal Gal Vorbak). "It costs more than Power Fist by 5 points. Dark Channeling is 2 Power Weapons and a Melta Bomb. Unless you're a Grey Slayer, in which case it's 5 Power Weapons." This is a non-sequitor, we're not talking about wargear, we're talking about legion upgrades. "No, it doesn't?" Yeah it does? The BA and WB squads I talked about are identical except for the Dark Channelling upgrade, so they are 25 points more expensive, and I wouldn't call that BA squad as being "much cheaper" since 25 points isn't much of a difference. "Both are mediocre for their intended roles. But yes, you can save some points with Kor Phaeron." That again depends on what you want them for. If you're playing with more support HQ's you can absolutely go with Kor Phaeron or Erebus which gives the rest of your army a boost, and just because they might not be as good as other choices, doesn't mean they're bad. "Taking a supposedly melee HQ to hang in the back just to dance around RoW's restrictions? I'd say it's pretty restrictive, to be honest." "No, but I believe specialists work better in their intended role, especially in a situation when a naked 50-points Centurion can be as effective as a 195 points Unique Character." Which part did you miss when I wrote that was just an example and you can still run him up with a different unit if you wanted to? Did you read any of it? "How do you take down Flyers then? Especially nasty ones like Lightnings?" That's going to differ by gaming group, most of the people in mine don't use Flyers and even in those cases where I'm sure I'm up against them I just get a Mortis Contemptor with dual Assault Cannons. If you wonder why I didn't mention that earlier, it's because I was talking about Heavy Support there and which Heavy Support units I use, not Elites, and I already mentioned earlier that Elites can do the job of Heavy Support if you need them to. "So why give him PW at all?" It's insurance in case you get charged. I'd figure you could appreciate that at the least, you claim I'm being very optimistic earlier yet you for some reason don't seem to understand why you'd give a support character a decent melee weapon. I'm not being optimistic here, I'm being realistic, in the event you get charged, you're going to want to fight off your opponent, which you will likely be able to even if it's 20 Grey Slayers with an attached Priest since, as I mentioned, you'll cause a lot of casualties before the fight even starts. "And with all that talk about Psykers giving advantage, you do realize you have a guy who need all your guaranteed Warp Charges to shoot effectively?" Not effectively, optimally. He shoots effectively with only three warp charges. On top of this, what's your point? Even if you roll a 1 you can put all your Warp Charges into him and power the weapon up fully, if you roll any higher than that, you still get the chance of using psychic abilities with your other characters. Furthermore, you're not likely to be in a situation where you need every ability active at once, so this is a non-issue. "Look Out Sir's by 30-points models with no Invul save." Yes, and? If he's getting shot by something that can threaten him you're going to have to choose him or the unit anyway, and it's almost always a better idea to give up the unit first. "This one comes from experience." Anecdotes are not statistical averages. I've seen Aevos Jovan instantly kill a Castellax Automata, but I wouldn't recommend running him up the field to do it. "Once again, awfully optimistic." Perhaps for the Grey Slayers, when you think about it. Not only am I pretending terrain doesn't exist, I'm not subtracting any distance lost from losing models, I'm assuming their heaviest hitters won't die before combat starts, I'm assuming they'll make the charge roll despite losing the vast majority of models to begin with (and given how boards look, it'll be a long charge even after running) and I'm assuming there's no difficult terrain or anything of the like that would slow them down or mess with their charge. "For your math to be true, you have to have the first turn and suffer absolutely no casualties." Not quite, for my math to be true you'd need to pop out a TSS from a Rhino in range of a Grey Slayer squad. That's not exactly hard to do. "They don't need a Rhino, it's just a wall of ceramite flooding the board in your general direction." I'm talking about the support squad, not the Grey Slayers. In other words, you'd have 9 plasma marines. "And if he lacks both Invul and Empathic Bonds, and Huscarl is armed with a Power Fist-" Except there is no Huscarl in this unit, there's a Priest instead. We've already been over this. "Of course not, because there won't be honest 1-on-1 manfighting in this scenario." Because the Space Wolves lose the fight. That kinda defeats your whole argument. "Melta Bombs take care of multiple problems." Not normally they don't. You can't rely on a single Melta Bomb to kill a Dreadnought like that. "Wait a second, how do you get that number? My math doesn't add up." Whoops, I think I did fuck up there (pretty sure I accidentally tried saving it against a 5+ instead of 3+ armour in my calculator), it should be 0.415. I'll admit I was very tired and it was late when I typed that, so I'll chalk that up to a genuine fuckup. "The main problem of firing Plasma Pistol in your Shooting Phase is killing the closest model in the enemy squad, therefore increasing the charge distance." Irrelevant as in this case the plasma pistol wielding Chaplain is getting charged. Furthermore even if you were charging, if the Artificer Armour Sergeant is in front, it usually is a good idea to shoot him before the fight starts. "So WB have no meatshields, and once again, it would be fortunate if no AM with Power Axes die." And it would also be fortunate if the BA squad had no difficulties reaching them, if the WB Chaplain rolled no useful powers on Biomancy, and if they never got shot before this point, as well as the Chaplain being unable to bounce more wounds through Empath Bonds and if the BA assault squad lost no power weapons in the counter-attack. I'm not just looking at optimal engagements for WB here, we're comparing two units of similar types and so we're giving optimal engagements to both. "What? Are we comparing 20-man squad of Grey Slayers and 10-man squad of Assault Marines now? Why?.." Because just earlier you were talking about running 20-man squads of Grey Slayers across the field and I must have mistakenly assumed you wanted to give them some gear. My bad. "So it has AP2-3 massed shooting as opposed to relying on weight of numbers?" No, the issue is that your squads are huge and you won't be able to spread them out optimally to counter all the blast weapons coming your way which cause a lot more damage than Krak Missiles. They still need to draw line of sight however, so if you move in a way that doesn't allow them to get clusters of shots onto crowded Marines then they'll use Krak Missiles; you'll still get cover saves, and you'll lose fewer guys on the whole. This is part of the game that only really gets learned with experience, so I don't blame you for not thinking about it. "That kind of list doesn't really care about losing models all that much." Which is why I handwaved away losing some models. "I mean, shooting regular MEQ with a Lascannon seems like a waste." Except you weren't referencing lascannons specifically, were you? You were referencing Autocannons and Assault Cannons specifically, and only had in one mention of some form of AT. I don't know about you, but I'd rather those two be shooting a Dreadnought than my more expensive Assault Squad with a character in it. "He also doesn't need to be in 8" to deal damage." And he doesn't have access to Flamestorm Cannons. That's kind of a deal breaker for why I recommended the Dreadnought, it's Strength 6, AP 3, it roasts MEQ's and there's nothing the Cortus has that comes close. Furthermore the point of the Dreadnought is not to win the melee fight, it's to fuck with your opponent's movement and assaults. If they're forced to charge the Dreadnought then not only are they not charging you, they're open for a countercharge, and even if you're certain that lone Melta Bomb can kill a Dreadnought and they're not near an Assault Squad of yours, that plasma squad I said the Dreadnought is protecting is more than capable of finishing them off. "Not really? One Javelin firing a Typhoon deals 0,64 Penetrating Hits. Add 0,27 from Multi-melta. It has Strafing Run, remember." I'll admit that I forgot that, however I should also point out that if you're going to be using a Multi-melta as part of your example, then bring that up when you mention Krak Missiles, especially since it's an upgrade. If you don't, then it makes it sound like you are only going to be using Krak Missiles. "A Front Armor of 12 means melee with a big squads armed with Kraks is the last place you want to be." On the contrary, placing it in a way that causes a unit of Grey Slayers to charge the Dreadnought instead of a much more expensive and valuable unit is exactly where I want my Dreadnought to be. "There are people who unironically think the "Traitor-only" bit is meant for Diabolist only, and that there can be Gal Vorbak squads in a Loyalist roster." The first part is clearly idiots, the second part is technically not, so long as you play Loyalist Alpha Legion and use Coils of the Hydra. That's still being a shithead though, and it's an obvious rules loophole that Forgeworld never bothered to patch. "Lightning Claw is 5 points more than a Tainted Weapon, and can be used as a real weapon to mince MEQ." Lightning Claw is statistically worse than a Power Fist with Preferred Enemy in nearly all instances. Hell, with Dark Brethren a Lightning Claw is legitimately worse than a Power Axe as far as causing wounds on MEQ's go, let alone TEQ's, unless you really want that Initiative and the chance you can be bounced off Artificer Armour. Personally I'm not a fan. "Like?.. Chaplains can't take Tainted Weapon instead of Crozius." Specific unit champions. The Tainted Weapon can be taken by every character, not just IC's. Even in cases where you have models who can take other specialist weapons, it's cheaper to get the Tainted Weapon instead to buff up the attacks you get with the actual weapon. "The truth is, not really, unless you're going against biker-heavy list, Black Shields Chimerae, Mechanicum or Custodes (good luck taking on those in melee!)." Or in case your opponent has Apothecaries, but for some reason you don't list them here. They're a massive pain in the ass, and getting to ignore their FNP is pretty nice regardless of how you look at it. On top of this it also allows you to Instant Death nearly every character you're up against, regardless of what tricks they might pull on you or who they ally in. By the way, Custodes only have a few squads that are really bad ideas to fight in melee (generally anyone with a shield), the rest are fine to take on so long as you have Iron Arm and Instant Death. "The two main options for Burning Lore are Praetor or Chaplain." Why wouldn't you give Burning Lore to the Diabolist? In Dark Brethren the Diabolists are nearly as good fighters as a Chaplain, and it's also an extra Warp Charge. "Praetor generally will have Paragon Blade, and that makes him S8." And it gives him an extra attack, and he can use the Tainted Weapon if there's allied Mechanicum who are likely T5 or higher. "Chaplains have Power Mauls, and if your WB Chaplain is not armed with one, Lorgar himself will beat you with Illuminarum." What he doesn't know won't hurt him, and I haven't been recommending Tainted Weapons on Chaplains anyway since they cannot get two Specialist Weapons. "Hemorrhoid. Life Leech is also not that good." How is sniping out a power sword/axe/fist/Sergeant before the fight starts bad? Also, how is healing a wound that your Empath buddy suffered across the map bad? "Judging by the latest book, I'm fully expecting FW to screw us over. So I personally prefer to use them while special offer lasts." I wish I could disagree here, but I can't. The latest rules have all had neat ideas with garbage execution. The one exception might be Argel Tal, but I haven't played with him yet. -- Triacom (talk) 13:06, 13 October 2021 (UTC)
statistically Empath Bonds and Psychic Powers will not Why? You have 50% of casting Iron Arm with 1 WC, 75% with 2 etc. It's not guaranteed by any means. your claim of "winning the assault with no casualties due to I5" Is false "With significantly less casualties", if you so insist. then it absolutely is worth it to try and kill them with Haemorrhage if it'll make the ensuing fight much easier You'll need at least 3 WC for that, which means at least 6 WC to cast it with any degree of certainty. That's just asking for perils, and with Empath Bonds perils are bad. It's a 4+ which is still a good chance it kills a Power Weapon of some kind before the fight starts Yes, which is the reason why the prime target should be the one that doesn't get even 4+ LOS!. the unit itself is likely to contain a Power Weapon or two if it's geared for assault, and sniping that out will be helpful in the coming fight That's exactly what I was saying. they have a 2+/5++/3+++ save effectively Yes, but failing 3+++ screws them up royally. granted most of the time I get a wound back it's used to heal Gal Vorbak Huh, that's the one I haven't thought of, due to just dropping Gal Vorbak on top of the enemy and leaving them to tear an enemy a new one. Even if I can give an Independent Character a Jump Pack for Deep Strike, it just feels wrong. This is a non-sequitor, we're not talking about wargear, we're talking about legion upgrades. No, we are talking about points and how to spend them effectively. The BA and WB squads I talked about are identical except for the Dark Channelling upgrade ... except we were talking about Grey Slayers. and just because they might not be as good as other choices, doesn't mean they're bad I'm traumatized due to Kor Phaeron going down to 1 Krak grenade. Instant Death. you can still run him up with a different unit if you wanted to? Of course you can, they'd just end up worse than vanilla versions. most of the people in mine don't use Flyers You're lucky. I just get a Mortis Contemptor with dual Assault Cannons Glad that you play against people who can't position their Flyers around it. It's insurance in case you get charged I feel it's rather half-assed, either commit or don't. Even if you roll a 1 you can put all your Warp Charges into him ... if you roll any higher than that, you still get the chance of using psychic abilities with your other characters If you roll Endurance or any other power with 2 WC cost, chances are you need something more than a "chance". Furthermore, you're not likely to be in a situation where you need every ability active at once, so this is a non-issue I disagree with this, most Blessings and Maledictions require exactly that past turn 1. Yes, and? There are more survivable models out there. Anecdotes are not statistical averages. Alright, statistically SA Section with flashlights, buffed by Strategos, inflicts 2,96 unsaved wounds on MEQ from 36" away. Auxilia Stormlord with Tank Commander, that costs less than TSS+Praetor, inflicts unsaved 22,68 wounds to them from 60" away. There are other big guns in various army lists that are less fragile than TSS, even with less bang initially. Perhaps for the Grey Slayers, when you think about it For one squad, absolutely. For the horde that can be bought with points of pimped-up TSS, not really. you'd need to pop out a TSS from a Rhino in range of a Grey Slayer squad For two consecutive turns, yes. Except there is no Huscarl in this unit Why would a unit lack a Sergeant?.. You can't rely on a single Melta Bomb to kill a Dreadnought like that Two, from Huscarl and Priest. Priest is hitting on rerollable 3+ on top of that. Irrelevant as in this case the plasma pistol wielding Chaplain is getting charged Except I'm talking about the reason Chaplain won't have one to begin with. if the Artificer Armour Sergeant is in front, it usually is a good idea to shoot him before the fight starts I've only seen one guy doing it, he protects his Iron Havocs that way. Employing this tactics with kitted-out melee Sergeant is, hm, rather bold. I must have mistakenly assumed you wanted to give them some gear Where's that coming from? Of course Grey Slayers need some gear, it's just not "combat shield+PW" for each and every one of them. Moreover, in my example, they already have weapons on par with Assault Squad from yours. and you won't be able to spread them out optimally to counter all the blast weapons coming your way I beg to differ, unless your deployment is Clash of the Line. Except you weren't referencing lascannons specifically, were you? "never mind actual AT weapons" from my previous post. You were referencing Autocannons and Assault Cannons specifically Honestly, I'd prefer Autocannons firing at my MEQ, because AP4, instead of glancing Boxnaught to death. there's nothing the Cortus has that comes close Cortus Assault Cannon, for instance, is a major nuisance for every enemy imaginable. the point of the Dreadnought is not to win the melee fight, it's to fuck with your opponent's movement and assaults The longer it survives, the more effective it is, in that case. even if you're certain that lone Melta Bomb can kill a Dreadnought Even if it fails, Kraks are there. If you don't, then it makes it sound like you are only going to be using Krak Missiles Well, even with Multi-melta out of the window, two Javelins should do the job. They're also cheaper in points (too cheap for my liking, therefore everyone has them, but that's another topic). the second part is technically not, so long as you play Loyalist Alpha Legion and use Coils of the Hydra The same way Mor Deythan and Dark Furies RAW can't be stolen by Alpha Legion, because they have "Raven guard Legion only" in their unit sheets, all Word Bearers units are affected by "they may only be part of Traitor faction armies". I don't see any loopholes here to turn them Loyalist. Lightning Claw is statistically worse than a Power Fist No argument there. Its' only purpose is to give +1 attack for Power Fist, though it can still be effectively used on I5 if the need arises. Specific unit champions. The Tainted Weapon can be taken by every character, not just IC's I don't think giving a Tactical Sergeant a Power Fist and a Tainted Weapon is that good of an idea. Or anyone without at least 2 wounds, to be honest. Or in case your opponent has Apothecaries, but for some reason you don't list them here I don't list them here because S8+ vs T4 takes care of FNP. Why wouldn't you give Burning Lore to the Diabolist? Eh, because I forgot about him. It's actually good for Diabolist, since he lacks effective melee weapons. and it's also an extra Warp Charge Huh? Unless you take Sacrificial Innervation, his Warp Charges should be the same as Centurion's or Chaplain's. And it gives him an extra attack Sure, but so does Power Fist, which under Iron Arm allows Praetor to comfortably engage Dreadnaughts. Also, how is healing a wound that your Empath buddy suffered across the map bad? It's good and all, provided he survived that wounds to begin with, and it's not hampering your charge. --Flutist (talk) 13:21, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
"Why?" Because statistics are mainly about looking at what's more likely and less likely. With Psychic Powers you have a 66% chance of getting something that enhances your combat potential, and even if you don't, you get a power that boosts your shooting by a lot (since you always get Smite) while also contributing an extra dice for other characters even if you don't want to use their own Psychic Powers. You also have a higher chance of getting those powers than not with two dice (I never said it was guaranteed) and Empath Bonds only have an 18% chance of failing you and not working on a 2-wound character, which means they're not likely to fail you going by statistics; that's why. "With significantly less casualties, if you so insist." Thank you. "You'll need at least 3 WC for that, which means at least 6 WC to cast it with any degree of certainty. That's just asking for perils, and with Empath Bonds perils are bad." Haemorrhage is warp charge 2, not 3. You'd be putting four dice into it which, while worrying, is not likely to get Perils. "Yes, which is the reason why the prime target should be the one that doesn't get even 4+ LOS!." I'm glad we are in agreement that sniping out a powerful weapon is a good idea, which would mean Biomancy doesn't have any dud powers in it. "Yes, but failing 3+++ screws them up royally." No it doesn't, rolling a 1 causes their buddy to take a wound, whereas rolling a two causes the device to not work for that single wound. You can also try to save the wound with Feel No Pain so it's more like a 2+/5++/5+++/3++++ save, or 4+++ if you have somebody with Enduring which I shouldn't need to tell you makes them very durable, especially if one of your three Psykers rolled Life Leech. "Huh, that's the one I haven't thought of, due to just dropping Gal Vorbak on top of the enemy and leaving them to tear an enemy a new one. Even if I can give an Independent Character a Jump Pack for Deep Strike, it just feels wrong." Not gonna lie, I rarely put characters in a Gal Vorbak unit as well. They're pretty self sufficient and it feels like my other squads underperform when they don't have the buffs. Now that being said, if I do get Life Leech I do make an effort to keep the unit close by, since Gal Vorbak can be healed so long as they're within 6" of the Psyker and in the late game models tend to cluster around the objectives. Healing them up also feels great since Gal Vorbak are so pricey to start with. "No, we are talking about points and how to spend them effectively." No, were talking about Legion upgrades, you can tell because I wrote: "Most Legions do need to pay for their bonuses in some way-" "except we were talking about Grey Slayers." Ah, my mistake, looks like we both got mixed up in this conversation. " I'm traumatized due to Kor Phaeron going down to 1 Krak grenade. Instant Death." How'd the Krak Grenade get him through his squad and 2+ armour? You've got LOS to get through, followed by his armour, and even then you'd need to put him front and center which isn't a good idea for any character because plasma shots will devastate them. "Of course you can, they'd just end up worse than vanilla versions." Sure, that's the price you pay for getting different HQ's than the ones required. "Glad that you play against people who can't position their Flyers around it." It's not that they can't, it's that most of the time they won't. The reason why is because if you begin winning the ground fight, your opponent is better off supporting their Troops than trying to ensure the flier lives longer. "I feel it's rather half-assed, either commit or don't." You're free to feel that way, personally I believe I've demonstrated you don't need to gear out your Praetor if you're going to be killing 75% of your opponents before you fight them. "If you roll Endurance or any other power with 2 WC cost, chances are you need something more than a "chance"." Sure, and in that case you can prioritize Endurance if you really feel you need to. There will be plenty of times you won't need to, especially if you already have some Apothecaries. "I disagree with this, most Blessings and Maledictions require exactly that past turn 1." And what if you don't roll malediction or aren't going to get your Chaplain/Diabolist with their self-buffs into combat one turn? Even ignoring that, you're going to be getting 6-7 Warp charges the vast majority of times, which is still enough to get each 1-charge power off, and still have some left over for the Praetor for his own power/projector. "There are more survivable models out there." I never said there weren't, the point is if you're being shot by something that would ignore his armour, you'd be using LOS anyway. "Auxilia Stormlord with Tank Commander, that costs less than TSS+Praetor, inflicts unsaved 22,68 wounds to them from 60" away." That's also a Lord of War that will go down to your other squads. It's easy to pick out counters to something, if you want to go that route, and I never said a TSS can't be countered. Incidentally, your math is wrong, the Stormlord costs more even before upgrades since a support Praetor like what I mentioned is under 180 points. "For the horde that can be bought with points of pimped-up TSS, not really." Well that would be assuming the entire horde wouldn't have to deal with Assault Marines/Dreadnoughts or whatever else I brought, which is why I chose a maxed squad vs a TSS squad. "For two consecutive turns, yes." Yes, that's easy. You do that by popping them out within 23" (so everyone can shoot), and if the Grey Slayers want to charge them before two turns, they'll need to roll a 13 (accounting for the run+charge penalty) on 2D6. Somehow I'm willing to bet even with their reroll they won't make it. "Why would a unit lack a Sergeant?" Oh I'm sorry, I misread that. In any case it's a moot point since the Praetor will have Empath Bonds. "Two, from Huscarl and Priest. Priest is hitting on rerollable 3+ on top of that." I guess that works if you want to do it, however the squad will still have charged the wrong target, they'll still take some losses from the Flamestorm Cannon and close combat (because the Priest is I4) and the squad will be left exposed for counter-shooting/charging when the Dreadnought's dead, so that's still a win in my book. "Except I'm talking about the reason Chaplain won't have one to begin with." Then that's kind of pointless since I already mentioned it's unlikely, however so long as your opponents like putting the 2+ save in front it's not a bad idea to get the Plasma Pistol, especially since a Dark Brethren Chaplain will reroll any failed roll with it. " I've only seen one guy doing it, he protects his Iron Havocs that way." Then you get why I might have opponents who do it too, and besides, I don't tailor my lists to specifically counter what my enemy brings. I'm not taking a Plasma Pistol to try and snipe an Assault Sergeant with it. "Where's that coming from?" It's coming from the first time you said I hadn't faced a Slayer-tide list. I assumed you were talking about maxing out the squads and giving them gear on top (I'm not assuming they all get power weapons) which does make them more expensive. "I beg to differ, unless your deployment is Clash of the Line." Wait, what kind of table and how much terrain are you playing with that you can optimally spread everyone out and still remain effective? This is getting to the realm where I'd need to see this table. " "never mind actual AT weapons" from my previous post." Read the full line and you'll see I addressed that. "Honestly, I'd prefer Autocannons firing at my MEQ, because AP4, instead of glancing Boxnaught to death." The point of my Dreadnought is to die so that my other models don't, so long as he accomplishes that, I'm quite happy with him. "Cortus Assault Cannon, for instance, is a major nuisance for every enemy imaginable." Sure, but since you seem to want to compare them, let's look at them both seriously. Assuming the Boxnaught can fire once and is then charged by an Assault unit, the Boxnaught inflicts a whopping 6.666 unsaved wounds on Marines. I'm assuming the template only touches six Marines (a low estimate, speaking from experience) and then gets two more from Wall of Death. A Cortus Dreadnought on the other hand inflicts 1.555 unsaved wounds on Marines every time it fires, so your Cortus Dreadnought needs to shoot for five turns in a row before passing by what a Boxnaught can do in a single turn. "The longer it survives, the more effective it is, in that case." While true, that's just the cherry on top. "Even if it fails, Kraks are there." No they're not. Page 182 of the AoD rulebook: "though only a single type of grenade may be employed by a given squad in any Fight sub-phase." You can use Melta Bombs or Krak Grenades, you cannot use both. If you fail to make the Dreadnought explode with those two attacks, then you will be locked in combat since the rest of the squad cannot hurt it, and it will live long enough to swing again in the following turn. "Well, even with Multi-melta out of the window, two Javelins should do the job." Over several turns (since even shaken they can still move), and if you're holding your assault units back across the turns to let your Javelins deal with my Dreadnoughts, you're not using the vast majority of your army. That's still a win for me. "The same way Mor Deythan and Dark Furies RAW can't be stolen by Alpha Legion, because they have "Raven guard Legion only" in their unit sheets, all Word Bearers units are affected by "they may only be part of Traitor faction armies". I don't see any loopholes here to turn them Loyalist." What you just mentioned is a part of the Word Bearers Legiones Astartes special rule, and not only do Gal Vorbak not have this rule, but Coils of the Hydra removes the Word Bearers Legiones Astartes special rule from any Word Bearers specific unit that the Alpha Legion choose to use. Page 92 even says "using the rules presented here" yet the Alpha Legion do not use the rules presented there, so even as written it's a loophole. Come to think of it, the Dark Martyr might not even be able to take a Tainted Weapon due to not being a Word Bearers character technically since they don't have LA (WB). "I don't think giving a Tactical Sergeant a Power Fist and a Tainted Weapon is that good of an idea. Or anyone without at least 2 wounds, to be honest." It's not, that's why I originally pointed it out as an aside, however it's still an option if anyone wants to roll with it for some reason. "I don't list them here because S8+ vs T4 takes care of FNP." It takes care of it at I1 whereas Tainted Weapons on Burning Lore characters strike at I5, before many opponents can attack. "Huh? Unless you take Sacrificial Innervation, his Warp Charges should be the same as Centurion's or Chaplain's." They are, I pointed this out because I thought you were deliberately avoiding giving the Diabolist Burning Lore for some reason. "but so does Power Fist, which under Iron Arm allows Praetor to comfortably engage Dreadnaughts." I wouldn't recommend that, I've never found it efficient or effective to use Praetors to kill Dreadnoughts. They cost much less than the Preator and his squad, there's a good chance they'll blow up and deal wounds to your squad, and there's always the chance it lives and gets to swing at the squad. "It's good and all, provided he survived that wounds to begin with, and it's not hampering your charge." Thank you. -- Triacom (talk) 23:06, 14 October 2021 (UTC)
you also have a higher chance of getting those powers than not with two dice (I never said it was guaranteed) And, for example, Blade of Perdition doubling the wounds inflicted is guaranteed. Empath Bonds only have an 18% chance of failing you and not working on a 2-wound character Not really, it's just the odds of them failing twice in a row. If you recieve, say, three wounds, that number goes up. Haemorrhage is warp charge 2, not 3 Focused Witchfire requires one extra dice to target specific models. which would mean Biomancy doesn't have any dud powers in it There is no model, rule or piece of equipment in the game that does absolutely nothing under any circumstance. It's always the question of what you pay and what you get, and I personally won't put so many WCs in a power that does so little. No it doesn't, rolling a 1 causes their buddy to take a wound Which means for two-wounds models the only thing you get from Empath Bonds at this point is Eternal Warrior, which is kinda redundant at this point. Using it again kills one model or the other. whereas rolling a two causes the device to not work for that single wound Yes, and if that two-wound model was wounded before (by, say, Perils), it's over, and the Bond is broken. Don't misunderstand me, Bonds are great, but its' 3+ is not a save, but a wound transfer. No, were talking about Legion upgrades And my point was you have to pay for both Dark Channeling and Diabolist to take it, which allows other melee legions to get an upper hand by actually buying stuff. Say, in your example BA Assault Squad can afford a Power Fist and a Combat Shield for Sergeant for 20 points, with additional 5 points to compensate the difference between Blade of Perdition and Power Fist. How'd the Krak Grenade get him through his squad and 2+ armour? Taking casualties until he's the closest model to the shooting squad, which I failed to charge previous turn, and thinking "well, the closest model to Kor Phaeron is my last guy armed with a Power Axe with a 3+ save, surely 2+ armor can take care of it". Sure, that's the price you pay for getting different HQ's than the ones required. And with so many HQ required I call Dark Bretheren restrictive. I believe I've demonstrated you don't need to gear out your Praetor if you're going to be killing 75% of your opponents before you fight them Except even in your example that Praetor goes "splash". getting 6-7 Warp charges the vast majority of times, which is still enough to get each 1-charge power off Unless you deduct 4 WC for firing the Projector, sure. the point is if you're being shot by something that would ignore his armour My point is he's surrounded by squishy, expensive and potentially very dangerous models. It's easy to pick out counters to something It's not about counters, it's about stuff other things can do for that point cost (not to mention IRL money). your math is wrong, the Stormlord costs more Yeah, you're right, I thought it costs 470 points base instead of 490. 10 points more expensive, then. Well that would be assuming the entire horde wouldn't have to deal with Assault Marines/Dreadnoughts or whatever else I brought And that aforementioned horde has no support to deal with those, yeah. You do that by popping them out within 23" Then by embarking them on Rhino after shooting, yes, because they obviously are not big, juicy target which is going to be shot with everything opponent has otherwise. it's a moot point since the Praetor will have Empath Bonds No, he won't. "A single Independent Character model may only take one Psyarkana relic". because the Priest is I4 Meltabombs are Unwieldy. and the squad will be left exposed for counter-shooting/charging when the Dreadnought's dead Unless they hide in CC with said Dreadnaught for your shooting phase to blow it up later. Then you get why I might have opponents who do it too I'm pretty sure my dedicated melee squads can take care of Sergeant with 2+ and no Power Weapons. which does make them more expensive More expensive than what? This is getting to the realm where I'd need to see this table Standard 48x72 table, with 8-9 pieces of either Citadel or scratch-build Ruins as a rule of thumb. Sometimes a huge centerpiece to block LoS. Depends on the club we're playing in, really. Read the full line The one in which you said I never mentioned any Lascannons? The point of my Dreadnought is to die so that my other models don't That's the point of both Boxnaught or Cortus, the problem is Cortus lives longer. Assuming the Boxnaught can fire once That's already optimistic. six...a low estimate, speaking from experience Wow, that's some tight formation, or you're very close to the enemy squad. Cortus Dreadnought on the other hand inflicts 1.555 unsaved wounds on Marines every time it fires You forgot to factor Rending. There is also the case about not being in 8". though only a single type of grenade may be employed by a given squad in any Fight sub-phase. My bad, completely forgot about that rule. and if you're holding your assault units back across the turns to let your Javelins deal with my Dreadnoughts Why would I? I'll just shoot at them until they're either Immobolized or Shaken/Stunned, and with AV 12 and no invuls, it's going to happen sooner than later. What you just mentioned is a part of the Word Bearers Legiones Astartes special rule No, it's not. Page 92 even says "using the rules presented here" As in "the rules in this book, describing Word Bearers legion", yes. Gal Vorbak are most definetely there. It takes care of it at I1 whereas Tainted Weapons on Burning Lore characters strike at I5, before many opponents can attack I was specifically reffering to Iron Arm and how both Praetor's and Chaplain's weapons of choice make Tainted Weapon redundant in most cases. I've never found it efficient or effective to use Praetors to kill Dreadnoughts Me too, but the problem with Dreadnaughts in general is that sometimes you have to deal with them. Things like Leviathans or Mortifactor-led squad of Contemptors can outlive even Melta-bombs deployed in mass. --Flutist (talk) 15:13, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

"And, for example, Blade of Perdition doubling the wounds inflicted is guaranteed." And it's also nowhere near as great a boost as the vast majority of powers on Biomancy are. "Not really, it's just the odds of them failing twice in a row. If you recieve, say, three wounds, that number goes up." No, that number goes down. For the Empath Bonds to not work they'd need to fail you twice on a 2-wound character, or 3 times on a 3-wound character, so the chance of that happening gets smaller as your wound pool grows larger. If they pass at all, then the points you spent on them are well worth it. "Focused Witchfire requires one extra dice to target specific models." My mistake, I forgot about that, however you still get Smite even if you roll it thanks to Psychic Focus, and that is a good power. "There is no model, rule or piece of equipment in the game that does absolutely nothing under any circumstance." That's not what we're talking about, we're talking about what you get out vs what you put in, and Biomancy is going to pay out regardless of what you roll. "Which means for two-wounds models the only thing you get from Empath Bonds at this point is Eternal Warrior, which is kinda redundant at this point." No it's not, it saves them from power-fist Sergeants or other sources of Instant Death, and the other model you have it on is always going to be your Praetor so you're going to be able to use it twice. "Yes, and if that two-wound model was wounded before (by, say, Perils), it's over, and the Bond is broken. Don't misunderstand me, Bonds are great, but its' 3+ is not a save, but a wound transfer." For the model being wounded it absolutely is a save. They get to not die, and if your other character is in a losing fight and/or in the open and about to get gunned down, then there's very little reason to not use it even if it's going to kill them. At least in that situation you save one character instead of losing both. "And my point was you have to pay for both Dark Channeling and Diabolist to take it, which allows other melee legions to get an upper hand by actually buying stuff." Come on dude, you're trying to put wheels on the goalposts. I was talking about Legion upgrades, and you're trying to ignore that since my point was that most Legions have to pay for their bonus in one way or another. Other Legions have greater downsides baked into their core by limiting them in one way or another, so let's stop pretending as if the Word Bearers are the only ones being taxed in some way. "Taking casualties until he's the closest model to the shooting squad-" Well in that case that's more poor positioning and poor target choices, on top of poor luck. That's not an average or even likely scenario by any means. "And with so many HQ required I call Dark Bretheren restrictive." That depends on what you want to do with it. If you want a more shooting list then you can absolutely do that, after all, your characters buff shooting units better than a Master of Signals, while also being able to shoot themselves. Keep them cheap for a shooting list and you can definitely make it work. "Except even in your example that Praetor goes "splash"." No he doesn't, read what I wrote. The Praetor survives alongside 3 Support Marines. "Unless you deduct 4 WC for firing the Projector, sure." I'm not, I told you already it's worth it at 3 warp charges, and becomes better at 4. "My point is he's surrounded by squishy, expensive and potentially very dangerous models." And? That's not a point, the same could be said for literally every character in the unit regardless of their role. In those cases, every character barring Primarchs would do the same thing, LOS the hit if it goes through their armour. "It's not about counters, it's about stuff other things can do for that point cost (not to mention IRL money)." Right, it's not about counters, which is why you chose a Strength 6 AP 3 unit that's known for mulching Marines. Nope, no counter to Marines there, it's about cost in points, ignoring the fact that super-heavy is more expensive, but at least it's cheaper to buy in real money than a plasma squad... except it's not. Maybe it's about what they can each do... except the plasma squad can mulch TEQ's while that super-heavy can't. Come on dude, these are incredibly bad faith arguments. None of your goalpost moving works for this scenario because it all rings hollow. This would be like me saying the Stormlord isn't worth it because a Venatar could zap it while costing a lot less, and then when you point out I just picked out its counter, I said It's not about counters, it's about stuff other things can do for that point cost (not to mention IRL money). Please. At least be honest instead of trying to back out of your argument. "And that aforementioned horde has no support to deal with those, yeah." Sure, if we're assuming I can't bring other things, why not? Come on, you're acting like an army with 60 Grey Slayers still has a lot of wiggle-room in a 2000 point list and while Grey Slayers definitely are not expensive at the start, when you begin buying each unit a few upgrades here and there (and purchase your characters you have to have) then you start to get a little strapped on points. You're not going to have enough to deal with the Assault Marines, the Support Squad, the Dreadnoughts, and whatever else I have by shooting at a distance. "Then by embarking them on Rhino after shooting, yes, because they obviously are not big, juicy target which is going to be shot with everything opponent has otherwise." I think you mean disembarking them before shooting, because what you wrote makes no sense otherwise. And yes, by your own admission the Space Wolves ranged assets will be shooting the Dreadnoughts/Assault Squads. By the way, I like how you're trying your best to not admit I'm right when I point out you can shoot twice at a Grey Slayer blob if you disembark within 23" of them. "No, he won't. "A single Independent Character model may only take one Psyarkana relic"." Right, fair point, I forgot that provision. "Meltabombs are Unwieldy." And Krak is not, I added that to pre-emptively counter the inevitable argument you might try to make by using Krak on a Dreadnought to try and glance it (or pen if it was immobilised). "Unless they hide in CC with said Dreadnaught for your shooting phase to blow it up later." First of all they can't 'hide' in CC with it, if they don't kill it then it continues cutting through them and if they do kill it, they get shot. Even if I have terrible luck with it, there's nothing preventing me from charging them with one of my Assault Squads since I'm certainly not leaping over Grey Slayers. "I'm pretty sure my dedicated melee squads can take care of Sergeant with 2+ and no Power Weapons." Why bother? It's extra wounds they'll soak up which might cause you to lose the assault, and it's extra damage they can potentially dish out, not to mention with them gone your challenge can be used on a more vital character in the unit if you want to, like an Apothecary. "More expensive than what?" An Assault Squad, we literally just went over this. "Standard 48x72 table, with 8-9 pieces of either Citadel or scratch-build Ruins as a rule of thumb. Sometimes a huge centerpiece to block LoS. Depends on the club we're playing in, really." Then how do you keep your Marines all spaced out properly to dodge blasts while keeping them all combat effective? Unless your terrain is tiny, they'll need to be very spread back when passing through terrain to the point they won't all be able to fight, and you'll lose a huge amount of ground when you take casualties. "The one in which you said I never mentioned any Lascannons?" Where I said you didn't specifically mention Lascannons, yes, because you didn't. You used 'AT weapons' without going into detail, and when this is pointed out you tried to back out again. "That's the point of both Boxnaught or Cortus, the problem is Cortus lives longer." I don't care about it living longer, if it lives longer then that's fine, it'll keep them tied up for my Assault Squad to leap in and if it dies I shoot them in my turn. The Dreadnought's durability here is a non-issue. "That's already optimistic." You're joking right? I want to hear you say you're joking. A Grey Slayer squad is not going to be something that can quickly dart around, regardless of their movement, especially if there's any difficult terrain in the way. They're not going to win by playing footsies with a Dreadnought (since that just lets them get shot more), you're going to be able to shoot them once with a template, barring incredibly lucky rolls on their part, and if they hang back to try and keep out of the Dreadnought's effective 14" range, then that's still a win for me because it means they're not advancing and other assets can shoot them. Incidentally even only 4 (or 5, three normally and two Wall of Death) hits is still more wounds than what a Cortus Dread can pump out in two turns, and then they'll get into combat with it. "Wow, that's some tight formation, or you're very close to the enemy squad." Most of the time squads don't have a choice. If they're playing peek-a-boo while trying to sneak around buildings then they get fucked anyway since they end up losing distance when their models die, or they get burned off an objective. "You forgot to factor Rending. There is also the case about not being in 8"." I didn't forget to factor it in, Cortus Dreads hit 4 times with the Assault Cannon, wound 3.333 times (0.666 of that is rending) and the non-rending wounds are 0.888. You seem to be getting your math wrong again because the Cortus Dread does only do 1.555 unsaved wounds every time it fires. I'm guessing you forgot that Cortus Dreads are only BS 4, not to mention Grey Slayers need to stay 12" away from a Dreadnought since otherwise they'll be forced to charge it and take Wall of Death hits thanks to Bloodied Claws (and with good positioning, that'll leave them further away from the rest of my army). If they want to stay completely out of the Template's range as well as forced Wall of Death, they need to stay 14.5" away from the Dreadnought since it can walk up and burn them. "Why would I? I'll just shoot at them until they're either Immobolized or Shaken/Stunned, and with AV 12 and no invuls, it's going to happen sooner than later." Immobilised Dreads must still be charged as soon as they're within range, which means I can get Wall of Death shots on your Grey Slayers, and being Shaken/Stunned does not take away my Dread's ability to use Wall of Death. The exact rules are "Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots." Nothing in the book says being Shaken/Stunned takes away Overwatch fire or Wall of Death. "No, it's not. Page 92 even says "using the rules presented here" As in "the rules in this book, describing Word Bearers legion"," No it does not, Page 92 starts with "LEGIONES ASTARTES (WORD BEARERS)" At the top of the page, and the first mention of the rules says "All models and units with this special rule are subject to the following provisions:" Now if you look, you'll notice that the bit that says the Word Bearers must be traitors is beneath the part that says "All models and units with this special rule are subject to the following provisions:" Even if it wasn't however, Gal Vorbak are not Word Bearers, they are a unit that the Word Bearers can include in their list under "Legion Specific Units" in the same way that Ultramarines can include the Damocles Command Rhino, even though that is not Ultramarines (it does not have the LA:U rule, and is not Legion Specific), and Thousand Sons can include the Castellax-Achea, even though those are not Thousand Sons. Furthermore Alpha Legion using a unit available to another Legion literally makes it an Alpha Legion unit, so if they were to use something like the Ashen Circle, that would be an Alpha Legion Ashen Circle with the Legiones Astartes (Alpha Legion) special rule as defined by the Coils of the Hydra Rite of War. Therefore, they are not subject to the Legiones Astartes (Word Bearers) Special Rule, and would not be affected by any of its provisions. "I was specifically reffering to Iron Arm and how both Praetor's and Chaplain's weapons of choice make Tainted Weapon redundant in most cases." Iron Arm characters cannot ID Marines, they're 1 Strength short whereas Tainted Weapon characters with Iron Arm can. "Me too, but the problem with Dreadnaughts in general is that sometimes you have to deal with them. Things like Leviathans or Mortifactor-led squad of Contemptors can outlive even Melta-bombs deployed in mass." Sure, no disagreement there, so I'm not sure why you're arguing that the Dreadnoughts against Grey Slayers aren't effective. -- Triacom (talk) 05:14, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

it's also nowhere near as great a boost as the vast majority of powers on Biomancy are Let's agree to disagree here. Endurance and Iron Arm? Sure. Everything else won't save from sufficient amount of AP2 on I5. so the chance of that happening gets smaller as your wound pool grows larger So Empath Bonds have higher chance of saving 2W model from 2 unsaved wounds then from 3 wounds? I don't agree with that statement on principle. No it's not, it saves them from power-fist Sergeants or other sources of Instant Death Model with only one wound remaining doesn't benefit from Eternal Warrior in any way. or in the open and about to get gunned down, then there's very little reason to not use it even if it's going to kill them You mean, without a squad of meatshields? That's a situation I don't find any Legiones Characters in very often. you're trying to put wheels on the goalposts That was my point from the start. I'll even quote it: : first, all of WB upgrades are paid in points, unlike free LA of other melee legions. If you misunderstood me and put some other meaning in my words, that's your problem, so please get off your high horse. That's not an average or even likely scenario by any means Sure, but such things scar you for life. When a Destroyer Sergeant can ID your melee HQ, that's not good. And before you go about one particular scenario - there's a lot of Destroyers out there following their buff. Keep them cheap for a shooting list and you can definitely make it work Dance around limitations, by other words. No he doesn't, read what I wrote It was your words that Praetor goes into challenge, not mine. I told you already it's worth it at 3 warp charges So a slightly better Smite for 3 WCs? Nice plan. That's not a point, the same could be said for literally every character in the unit regardless of their role No, it can not, because you can work around that issue in two ways. First, surround your expensive HQ by tough, expensive and potentially very dangerous models, meaning they won't die the moment everyone starts shooting at them. Second, surround your expensive HQ by squishy and inexpensive models, emphasizing the numbers and providing more dangerous targets. which is why you chose a Strength 6 AP 3 unit that's known for mulching Marines It mulches everything, including TEQs. about cost in points, ignoring the fact that super-heavy is more expensive ..by ten points. but at least it's cheaper to buy in real money than a plasma squad And plasma squad is a good choice in every scenario available, and will be taken in every game! Well, good for you and your meta if it allows it. None of your goalpost moving works for this scenario Are those "moving goalposts" you're talking about in the same room as you now? Venatar could zap it while costing a lot less Except Venator is pretty bad for its' points. Just like a TSS. At least be honest instead of trying to back out of your argument Please don't put meanings I didn't have in my words again, thanks. You're not going to have enough to deal with the Assault Marines, the Support Squad, the Dreadnoughts, and whatever else I have by shooting at a distance Of course not, the prime targets would be TSS for anti-infantry and Dreadnaughts for anti-tank. I think you mean disembarking them before shooting, because what you wrote makes no sense otherwise Sorry, you've repeatedly missed the point. Though I wonder, what part of "big, juicy target" you didn't understand? Or did you forget the concept of "after my turn of shooting the enemy has his"? I added that to pre-emptively counter the inevitable argument you might try to make by using Krak on a Dreadnought to try and glance it ...by lone Wolf Priest. Glance a Dreadnaught with Krak. O-kay? if they don't kill it then it continues cutting through them With its' mighty 3 attacks. Why bother? Between "paying 15 points for Plasma Pistol that's more likely to hamper my charge" and "killing a 2+ Sergeant of a shooting squad in a challenge" I'll choose the latter. Even with Preferred Enemy. An Assault Squad, we literally just went over this. And ended up comparing 20 Slayers with 10 Assault Marines, which was strange, yes. Then how do you keep your Marines all spaced out properly to dodge blasts while keeping them all combat effective? If by "keeping them combat effective" you mean "having a formation that engages the whole squad in h2h on turn 1", then, obviously, you don't. It's not that big of a problem with consolidation though. they'll need to be very spread back when passing through terrain Whole squad doesn't need to fit into a terrain piece, it's not 9th ed rules. and you'll lose a huge amount of ground when you take casualties That depends on the width of the squad, yes. You used 'AT weapons' without going into detail I had a feeling you knew what the common Legion dedicated AT weapons are. Do I have to spell everything for you? Okay. Autocannons can only glance Cortus Dreadnaughts, and the likelihood of Kraks penetraring them is more than 2 times less. Therefore, Cortus Dreadnaughts require dedicated AT weapons to crack, unlike Boxnaughts, which are severely hampered by more universal options. Any actual AT weapon goes through AV 12 like knife through butter, and there is no 5++ to rely on. Is this version better? You're joking right? If your meta allows Boxnaughts to live long enough to get in 8" of an enemy squad, without using a Pod, good for you. Even in a Grey Slayer heavy list. I'm guessing you forgot that Cortus Dreads are only BS 4 No, I just counted the number of non-rending wounds wrong. Grey Slayers need to stay 12" away from a Dreadnought since otherwise they'll be forced to charge it and take Wall of Death hits thanks to Bloodied Claws Once again, if your meta allows Boxnaughts to live for 2 turns necessary for Slayers to get into a charge range, it's all fine and dandy. But that is one of hell of an assumption in mine. Immobilised Dreads must still be charged as soon as they're within range, which means I can get Wall of Death shots on your Grey Slayers 2 marines is not something the squad can't live without. Nothing in the book says being Shaken/Stunned takes away Overwatch fire or Wall of Death. Did I ever say anything about Shaken/Stunned vehicle being unable to fire Overwatch? Now if you look, you'll notice that the bit that says the Word Bearers must be traitors is beneath the part that says "All models and units with this special rule are subject to the following provisions: No, it's not, it's under Diabolist in Legion Specific Units. Furthermore Alpha Legion using a unit available to another Legion literally makes it an Alpha Legion unit, so if they were to use something like the Ashen Circle, that would be an Alpha Legion Ashen Circle with the Legiones Astartes (Alpha Legion) special rule as defined by the Coils of the Hydra Rite of War Except they don't ignore rules allowing said unit to be taken into one's army, and "Traitors only" is not part of Legiones Astartes (Word Bearers). Iron Arm characters cannot ID Marines, they're 1 Strength short whereas Tainted Weapon characters with Iron Arm can Try reading what I wrote, please, the topic is covered there in detail. I'm not sure why you're arguing that the Dreadnoughts against Grey Slayers aren't effective Because Boxnaughts are either spammed or dropped, dying before doing anything otherwise. --Flutist (talk) 16:09, 21 October 2021 (UTC)
"Let's agree to disagree here." No. I don't know why you think Enfeeble is bad (especially since boosted Strength Power Axes will Instant Death Marines) but even if you have no interest in using the other three, you get Smite. That on its own is more than two times as powerful as a Plasma Pistol with much greater range. Before you claim that it makes charges harder, you do not need to use Smite on the unit you wish to charge, you can use it on something else and then charge a different unit that you throw a Krak Grenade at (or your Pistol, as the case may be). Using Smite once is going to earn its points back on average, while also providing you an extra Warp Charge for anyone else who needs it. "So Empath Bonds have higher chance of saving 2W model from 2 unsaved wounds then from 3 wounds?" I'm going to choose to believe you're asking this legitimately and not intentionally acting dumb. What I said was the chance that Empath Bonds fail to work becomes less on models with more wounds, AKA there's less a chance that a Praetor would fail every roll than a Chaplain/Diabolist. "Model with only one wound remaining doesn't benefit from Eternal Warrior in any way." You just said it was on a 2-wound model, and you claimed that made Eternal Warrior redundant. That is flat out untrue and you're trying to back off of it by claiming that instead of the model having two-wounds, they now only have a single wound left instead. "You mean, without a squad of meatshields? That's a situation I don't find any Legiones Characters in very often." You don't find your squads getting shot as the game progresses, leaving you with a character and only a few Marines? Incredible, you must only play against Daemons or pure assault lists. "That was my point from the start. I'll even quote it:" If you read your quote you'll notice you were definitely not talking about generic wargear regular units can take. What you wrote, as you quote, is: "first, all of WB upgrades are paid in points, unlike free LA of other melee legions" But then you followed it with: "It costs more than Power Fist by 5 points. Dark Channeling is 2 Power Weapons and a Melta Bomb." Now, which melee legion is it that gets power fists and melta bombs for free if this was your point? I'd hate to misunderstand you and put some other meaning to your words, so please, enlighten me, which melee legion is it? "Sure, but such things scar you for life." See my previous point about anecdotes. I'll never forget Aevos Jovan killing a Castellax with his Instant Death, but I'd also never recommend trying for that result. Also if you're worried about the Destroyer Sergeant killing him, then accept the challenge with your Sergeant for round 1 and you won't have that issue. "Dance around limitations, by other words." It's getting real hard to assume you're arguing in good faith when you say I should not attribute other meaning to your words, and then you go and do exactly that to me. I never said or implied anything like this, in fact I've stated the opposite multiple times. A Dark Brethren list has significantly better shooting than a list with two Master of Signals in it, that's not dancing around your limitations, that's playing to your strengths. "It was your words that Praetor goes into challenge, not mine." The Praetor wins the challenge. While I didn't do it, you can also stack the odds even further in his favour with a Power Fist. "So a slightly better Smite for 3 WCs? Nice plan." You could also choose to get it alongside Telepathy if you wanted to, and what I wrote still doesn't change the fact that it's still useful at that stage, especially since it always goes off without needing a Psychic Test. "No, it can not, because you can work around that issue in two ways. First, surround your expensive HQ by tough, expensive and potentially very dangerous models, meaning they won't die the moment everyone starts shooting at them. Second, surround your expensive HQ by squishy and inexpensive models, emphasizing the numbers and providing more dangerous targets." If you do either of these things then the character isn't in the unit. I told you "the same could be said for literally every character in the unit regardless of their role." That statement is still true, there is no character you can put in that unit that's immune to the 'issue' you have with it. "It mulches everything, including TEQs." Is there a reason you're lying to me? I'd like to know, because Stormlords suck hard at killing TEQ's. Hell, you can place a Praetor with no upgrades at all in front of a Stormlord, and the Stormlord will not be able to kill him that shooting phase even if it remains stationary and fires everything at him. You have to buy it upgrades to make it even slightly possible (which prices it out of 2000 points if you were going to be a dick and use it at that level), and even then the Praetor will still live if he gets upgraded to have an Iron Halo. This is without mentioning how hard they suck at killing Terminator Squads, let alone the 2-wound TEQ's that certain Legions get. Again, I find it very hard to believe you're arguing in good faith when you make these sorts of claims, and if you're going to tell me that a 490 point unit is good at eating through TEQ's because it causes two wounds on them every shooting phase in which it does not move, and cannot make use of the fact that it's a transport (meaning in the course of an average game, it will make 360 points back out of its 490 point cost if it never moves, always has a chance to shoot Terminators and never dies) then I have serious doubts you've ever played with it or looked at its unit sheet. "by ten points." Across multiple units compared to just the Stormlord. "Are those "moving goalposts" you're talking about in the same room as you now?" They're wherever you're putting them after claiming you didn't pick the Stormlord as a counter to a Support Squad and that the Stormlord's actually good at killing TEQ's with an AP3 gun somehow. "Except Venator is pretty bad for its' points. Just like a TSS." That depends on what you're shooting. If you're shooting a Stormlord or a super-heavy (its ideal target) then it is a really good tank. "Of course not, the prime targets would be TSS for anti-infantry and Dreadnaughts for anti-tank." Please let me see a 2000 point Space Wolves list you're running where you have 3 HQ's (because you have to and we're playing at exactly 2000 points, no more, no less), 60 Grey Slayers, and yet still have enough to invest in enough anti-tank and enough anti-infantry ranged assets that you can kill my Dreadnoughts and Plasma squad before your Grey Slayers get stuck in (and without your ranged tools getting blasted by whatever ranged assets I bring). "Sorry, you've repeatedly missed the point. Though I wonder, what part of "big, juicy target" you didn't understand? Or did you forget the concept of "after my turn of shooting the enemy has his"?" Of course they're going to be shot, but let's not pretend there's no way to protect them, especially when they're in their Rhino. Even should you wreck it (since blowing it up is unlikely, especially on turn 1) they can hide behind it and whatever terrain is nearby to avoid most anti-infantry fire. "...by lone Wolf Priest. Glance a Dreadnaught with Krak. O-kay?" I'm almost surprised you didn't suddenly have other characters in the unit with the Wolf Priest considering how much you seem to love altering scenarios without warning. Also I was sure you'd mention shooting them in advance, but you beat my expectations. "With its' mighty 3 attacks." Sure, if it flames some, gets Wall of Death and then gets to fight its attacks do add up. It's not going to kill the unit but it will end up tying them up for my Assault Squad to cut down or my Plasma guns to shoot off. "Between "paying 15 points for Plasma Pistol that's more likely to hamper my charge" and "killing a 2+ Sergeant of a shooting squad in a challenge" I'll choose the latter. Even with Preferred Enemy." And if that Sergeant has a Power Fist/Power Axe you could lose Marines or even the Chaplain if you're unlucky. "If by "keeping them combat effective" you mean "having a formation that engages the whole squad in h2h on turn 1", then, obviously, you don't." Here's the problem, if you're spread that far out to the point where you actually start losing attacks then you could end up getting stuck in combat which is not where you want to be if your opponent has any form of combat troops around. The ending Consolidation isn't much help if you're still stuck and your opponent has an easy counter-charge. "Whole squad doesn't need to fit into a terrain piece, it's not 9th ed rules." I'm not talking about fitting in the terrain, I'm talking about passing through terrain, as in terrain that's on the table. Unless you play with purely flat tables with no buildings or rock formations then you're going to need to change how your formation is ordered so that you can pass by obstacles you come across. "I had a feeling you knew what the common Legion dedicated AT weapons are. Do I have to spell everything for you?" I do know what they are, after all, I use Dreadnoughts and am very familiar with what blows them up. Since you don't seem to use Dreads, Autocannons are very unlikely to destroy or even cripple them, and pretty much nobody brings those. The only guy I know who does uses them for popping Rhino's. "Any actual AT weapon goes through AV 12 like knife through butter, and there is no 5++ to rely on. Is this version better?" For killing Marines, absolutely. I guess I shouldn't expect you to know, but regular Dreadnoughts are a lot smaller than Contemptors, meaning it's way easier to fit them behind cover in some manner. In effect this means you still do get a 5+ save (or better) since those dedicated AT weapons do not ignore cover. "If your meta allows Boxnaughts to live long enough to get in 8" of an enemy squad, without using a Pod, good for you. Even in a Grey Slayer heavy list." You should try it sometime, it's really not that hard. Like I said with their movement their threat range is a lot greater than it initially appears, and assault-heavy opponents aren't going to win by trying to dance around their threat bubble. "Once again, if your meta allows Boxnaughts to live for 2 turns necessary for Slayers to get into a charge range, it's all fine and dandy. But that is one of hell of an assumption in mine." Again, I'd like to see this Space Wolves list where the majority of it gets taken up by HQ's and Grey Slayers, yet it still has enough to deal with Dreadnoughts and whatever other ranged threats I might bring. I mentioned it before but I do love using Medusas, and if you're shooting my Dreads instead of them then I'm going to be very happy. "2 marines is not something the squad can't live without." Sure, but charging that Dreadnought is a death sentence not because of the Marines who die in Wall of Death or in the assault, but because of what I've said before. If they win and kill it, they get shot to death. If they fail to kill it (somehow), they get counter-charged and die. Either way it's effectively a dead unit, and getting that close to the Dreadnought will force them to charge it, even if it's immobilised. "Did I ever say anything about Shaken/Stunned vehicle being unable to fire Overwatch?" Did I say you said anything about Shaken/Stunned vehicles being unable to fire Overwatch? No, I brought that up pre-emptively. "No, it's not, it's under Diabolist in Legion Specific Units." Which is under LEGIONES ASTARTES (WORD BEARERS), just look up a little higher on the page for proof of that. "Except they don't ignore rules allowing said unit to be taken into one's army," Yeah they do, where are you getting this from? They turn those units into Alpha Legion units and make them Elites choices even if they were in some other FOC slot, and they ignore the restriction that only allowed those units to be taken by a different Legion which means those units are effectively Elites units in the Alpha Legion with no rules of their parent legion attached. "and "Traitors only" is not part of Legiones Astartes (Word Bearers)." Then why is it listed inside of the WB:LA special rule? Literally everything there is inside of that special rule, as defined by the Age of Darkness Rulebook on page 168. "Try reading what I wrote, please, the topic is covered there in detail." My mistake, I thought I made it very clear by this point I don't give my Chaplains power mauls. "Because Boxnaughts are either spammed or dropped, dying before doing anything otherwise." As I said before, if you're killing my Dreadnoughts and not my Assault Squads or my Plasma Squad or my other shooting units, I'm going to be very happy for your poor judgement. -- Triacom (talk) 07:16, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
I don't know why you think Enfeeble is bad I don't. That on its own is more than two times as powerful as a Plasma Pistol with much greater range Did Smite get S7 when I wasn't looking? Before you claim that it makes charges harder, you do not need to use Smite on the unit you wish to charge I've read the rulebook, thanks. Using Smite once is going to earn its points back on average Killing 30 points of models in one go? Maybe if you're targeting TEQs. while also providing you an extra Warp Charge for anyone else who needs it It's all true, of course, but then you can remember all the stuff specifically made to screw over Psykers, added in book 8, and their reduced survivability after FAQ (no FNP for Perils). I'm going to choose to believe you're asking this legitimately and not intentionally acting dumb No, I'm not asking it legitimately. What's more, I've been talking about unsaved wounds in the initial statement, the fact which you missed completely. You just said it was on a 2-wound model, and you claimed that made Eternal Warrior redundant Because the initial statement discussed a specific situation, which indeed makes Eternal Warrior redundant. Keep up, please. You don't find your squads getting shot as the game progresses, leaving you with a character and only a few Marines? That doesn't make them less of a threat to non-melee squads or vehicles, and I sure as hell will try to make my Character live as long as possible instead of writing him off. If you read your quote you'll notice you were definitely not talking about generic wargear regular units can take Please allow me to decide what I'm talking about. Now, which melee legion is it that gets power fists and melta bombs for free if this was your point? You managed to miss it completely. Say, Blood Angels get +1 to wound in their LA. Word Bearers can roll (so no guarantee here) +1 S on Dark Channeling for 25 points, which is roughly (roughly!) the same. However, in terms of roster building, BA player will have 25 points more to spend on the same squad (or HQ, or anything), allowing them to get an upper hand by purchasing gear. then accept the challenge with your Sergeant for round 1 I usually prefer to issue and accept challenges with my Sergeants initially, yes, to the point I find it strange for the Praetor in your example to bother with the challenge at all. A Dark Brethren list has significantly better shooting than a list with two Master of Signals in it Why would you take two Master of Signals in the list to begin with? Also, those also have a very handy bombardment. that's not dancing around your limitations, that's playing to your strengths Putting melee HQs with a price tag to match in shooting squads because they suck at melee is playing to their strengths how, exactly? If you took a naked Centurion instead of a mandatory Chaplain for Preferred Enemy, effectively trading melee buffs for worse shooting buffs to save points, sure. But to have any freedom you need to buy a unique character, all of whom are mediocre in their intended roles, losing to their default counterparts. you can also stack the odds even further in his favour with a Power Fist Or you can give him an actual weapon like Paragon Blade so he doesn't need to fead Power Fist-rocking sergeants. Just sayin'. You could also choose to get it alongside Telepathy if you wanted to Why would I? especially since it always goes off without needing a Psychic Test Thanks God, if it needed a test for 3 WC, it would have been an absolute garbage. If you do either of these things then the character isn't in the unit On the contrary. there is no character you can put in that unit that's immune to the 'issue' you have with it Once again, missing the point completely. 30 points MEQs. There are plenty of units that can do better. Hell, you can place a Praetor with no upgrades at all in front of a Stormlord, and the Stormlord will not be able to kill him that shooting phase Since Praetor is an Infantry model, I'm expecting 3,7 unsaved wounds just from the main gun. Looks pretty dead to me. which prices it out of 2000 points Tank Commander cost is not counted for LoW allowance. This is without mentioning how hard they suck at killing Terminator Squads Roughly 4 wounds per phase of shooting isn't bad in my book, especially since its' effectiveness doesn't deteriorate to the point it blows up. let alone the 2-wound TEQ's that certain Legions get I agree here, those are tough customers. Then again, it's not like the Plasma does exceptionally well against those either. because it causes two wounds on them every shooting phase in which it does not move Might wanna check that math... you've ever played with it or looked at its unit sheet I've played against it enough times to vouch for the thing. Haven't fallen so low to field one, though. Across multiple units compared to just the Stormlord. Praetor+TSS versus Stomlord+Commander. Both are one unit. They're wherever you're putting them after claiming you didn't pick the Stormlord as a counter to a Support Squad I've looked at the point cost of a squad you're describing and wrote the first thing that spring to mind. I can measure its' weight in Sicarans, or Dreadnaughts, or Javelins, if you prefer. If you're shooting a Stormlord or a super-heavy (its ideal target) then it is a really good tank. Unless hampered by a measly 36" of range and lack of Machine Spirit. Please let me see a 2000 point Space Wolves list you're running Not me, obviously, but sure. Hvarl, Geigor (or regular Centurion if one wants to skimp on points or opponent is being an ass about Hvarl RAW not being a compulsory Praetor or Centurion), Priest, Destroyers or Veterans, 3 Apothecaries, Mortis with 2 Lascannons, 3 15-man strong Grey Slayers packs (alternatively, 2 squads of 15 and 1 of 10 in a Rhino), Anvillus, 2 Javelins with HKs. You have exactly one turn of shooting before all of this is in your face. Of course they're going to be shot, but let's not pretend there's no way to protect them, especially when they're in their Rhino While all of this is true, and, naturally, you're likely to have Apothecary with them. However, if we're talking melee lists, they're usually utilizing Assault Transports, and shooty lists are making you come to them, and have no problem wrecking or blowing the transport and dropping some templates on disembarked models. Even if we're talking the aforementioned SW list, even if you wreck one squad of Slayers completely, at least another one will be close enough to pull a charge. I'm almost surprised you didn't suddenly have other characters in the unit with the Wolf Priest considering how much you seem to love altering scenarios without warning It doesn't look you're wriggling instead of admitting your mistake. At all, actually. Also, are those "any other" characters in the unit sergeants? Because yes, I generally expect to have one in a unit. or my Plasma guns to shoot off In close combat?.. Because come their next turn, the squad is free to act, if they finish a Dreadnaught in preceding close combat phase, and the only way to pull it off is running directly from them. And if that Sergeant has a Power Fist/Power Axe you could lose Marines or even the Chaplain if you're unlucky. As we discussed, oh God, 3 years ago on SA page, I don't count on my opponent being a moron. The ending Consolidation isn't much help if you're still stuck and your opponent has an easy counter-charge That's true, but if you go with the horde, opponent will have charge options one way or the other. Even if this squad is wiped out, there is another nearby to charge those counter-chargers in turn. you're going to need to change how your formation is ordered so that you can pass by obstacles you come across Not really, unless that pieces of terrain are Impassable, and those are rare. Autocannons are very unlikely to destroy or even cripple them Why is that? 5 of them pop out enough shots to do the job in two turns. and pretty much nobody brings those We're experiencing resurgence thanks to Javelins. but regular Dreadnoughts are a lot smaller than Contemptors I don't now a lot of cover that provide its' benefit to one but not the other, barring infantry. As a side note, Dreadnaughts are usually at the front, making hiding behind other units problematic. You should try it sometime, it's really not that hard I tried. My painted Venerable Boxnaught with Inferno Cannon and Chainfist is within hand's reach as I type. I mentioned it before but I do love using Medusas They're not all that useful unless the target squad is bunched up, in my experience, and are usually hidden behind at least 4+ cover. It's also usually hard to shoot them in the side on turn one. Which is under LEGIONES ASTARTES (WORD BEARERS) Legiones Astartes (Word Bearers) special rule ends with "This choice must always be either a Centurion or a Chaplain Consul". Legion rules and Legiones Astartes (...) are not the same. Yeah they do, where are you getting this from? They don't ignore Dark Fury's rules or Allegiance limitations of individual units. I'd like to see where it says otherwise. Literally everything there is inside of that special rule, as defined by the Age of Darkness Rulebook on page 168. If all Legion rules are Legiones Astartes (...), then there are no specific units or gear available to any Legions, since it specifies "a number of special rules and abilities available". I don't give my Chaplains power mauls Shame on you. --Flutist (talk) 13:10, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

"I don't." Weird you didn't include it among Endurance and Iron Arm, but I'll assume you forgot it. "Did Smite get S7 when I wasn't looking?" A power pistol on a Dark Brethren character does 0.945 wounds, Smite on a Dark Brethren character does 2.268 unsaved wounds, that's 214% the amount that the plasma pistol does, in other words it's twice as powerful as a plasma pistol with much greater range. "Killing 30 points of models in one go? Maybe if you're targeting TEQs." Killing 30 points of models is easy when you usually kill just over two models per use. Even killing two Tactical Marines would earn you its points back. "It's all true, of course, but then you can remember all the stuff specifically made to screw over Psykers, added in book 8, and their reduced survivability after FAQ (no FNP for Perils)." Sure, and if you don't like them for it then that's fine, however that doesn't take away how effective they are if you play around that and don't get caught by anti-psyker stuff (by shooting it or charging it with something else for example). Even in cases where armies build specifically against Psykers you can still play around it so long as you're smart about it. "No, I'm not asking it legitimately. What's more, I've been talking about unsaved wounds in the initial statement, the fact which you missed completely." You were talking about the odds of getting unsaved wounds in the initial statement, just look: "Not really, it's just the odds of them failing twice in a row. If you recieve, say, three wounds, that number goes up." I was also talking about the odds of them failing which is very low. "Because the initial statement discussed a specific situation, which indeed makes Eternal Warrior redundant. Keep up, please." The original situation talked about the odds of it failing, not it being on a model with only one wound left. "That doesn't make them less of a threat to non-melee squads or vehicles, and I sure as hell will try to make my Character live as long as possible instead of writing him off." Ah, so you do find your squads getting shot as the game progresses. Of course you should try to make characters live as long as possible, but a hopeless situation is a hopeless situation. "Please allow me to decide what I'm talking about." What you write is what you're talking about. If you claim you're talking about something you didn't write, then I'm going to call you out on it. "You managed to miss it completely." No, you lied. You claimed you were talking about free Legion boosts when in reality you were talking about paid wargear and then claimed you were talking about efficient use of points, and then you claimed you were actually talking about legion specific upgrades. It's another case of moving the goalposts. "Say, Blood Angels get +1 to wound in their LA. Word Bearers can roll (so no guarantee here) +1 S on Dark Channeling for 25 points, which is roughly (roughly!) the same." And Blood Angels have neither True Believers nor Cut Them Down so they're more likely to panic and have no defence for a poor sweeping advance roll. "I usually prefer to issue and accept challenges with my Sergeants initially, yes, to the point I find it strange for the Praetor in your example to bother with the challenge at all." In my example the Praetor challenges because he's more likely to win against whoever accepts than not, which cuts down on the amount of wounds the squad itself will take. "Why would you take two Master of Signals in the list to begin with?" Please stop with the bad faith arguments, I never said you would or should do that, I was clearly using it as an example for how good they are at boosting shooting units. "Putting melee HQs-" If they boost shooting more than a Master of Signals then they are no longer just melee HQ's now are they? Master of Signals have a very comparable price tag to them. "But to have any freedom you need to buy a unique character, all of whom are mediocre in their intended roles, losing to their default counterparts." And that's the price you pay if you want to save points, in which case you're still coming out ahead given what you put in vs what you get out. "Or you can give him an actual weapon like Paragon Blade so he doesn't need to fead Power Fist-rocking sergeants. Just sayin'." Sure, either way he's still not that expensive especially when you factor in the Marines he saves from Gets Hot rolls. "Why would I?" Because Telepathy has plenty of good powers. "On the contrary." No, not 'on the contrary'. If they're not in the unit, then they're not in the unit. As I said, there is no character who could be in that unit who would be immune to that 'issue' you have with it. "Once again, missing the point completely." Once again, you're ignoring the point. "30 points MEQs. There are plenty of units that can do better." There are units that can do it conditionally better, and their costs soon become comparable. "Since Praetor is an Infantry model, I'm expecting 3,7 unsaved wounds just from the main gun. Looks pretty dead to me." Oh, see here I thought you were saying that you were for some reason getting the Command Tank upgrade for the Stormlord since you were claiming the squad I brought was only 10 points cheaper than the Stormlord when in reality it was 65 points cheaper and you were just ignoring the Tank Commander's cost increase for some reason. That... doesn't change anything. That's a 545 point investment which needs to gun down 18 Terminators to make its points back, meaning you're staying still for 5 turns straight when the thing is a transport. By the time you actually move it, the game is practically over, and in many scenarios it will be over. That is not points efficient at all. " I agree here, those are tough customers. Then again, it's not like the Plasma does exceptionally well against those either." Sure they do, even a squad of 5 kills 2 of them before they have a chance to close the gap (more if you back up as you shoot) and a decent squad of 8 kills 2.5 every time it rapid-fires at the 2 wound Terminators, assuming they're in Cataphractii armour of course. Either way it's still more than the Stormlord, while costing significantly less than a Stormlord + Tank Commander, and that's before I add in the Praetor's shots (who adds on another wound and change, or 1.89 wounds at full power, which when added with the squad's damage is another dead 2-wound Terminator). "Praetor+TSS versus Stomlord+Commander. Both are one unit." No they're not, the Praetor can leave and the Stormlord and Commander cannot separate. "I've looked at the point cost of a squad you're describing and wrote the first thing that spring to mind." And the Sicaran Venator is the first thing I thought of when I thought of the Stormlord, that doesn't mean it isn't a counter. "Unless hampered by a measly 36" of range and lack of Machine Spirit." On what table are you having trouble shooting a fucking massive tank with 36" of range? Are you trying to deploy it tucked in the corner way away from its intended target? "Not me, obviously, but sure." I said 60 Grey Slayers, you're 15 short and I said 60 because it was the amount you used in the example earlier. The amount of Grey Slayers you've given here isn't that much of a challenge to kill especially since with what I've already told you is in my list, I want them to be in my face, it's where I'll kill them. Even in this case however, that amount of shooting is not enough to take care of Dreadnoughts, the Plasma squad and the Medusas all before your Marines close the distance. By the way, what's the Anvillus carrying? Everything in your list is either too big to fit inside or is a Mortis Dreadnought which they cannot carry. "However, if we're talking melee lists, they're usually utilizing Assault Transports, and shooty lists are making you come to them-" Taking two assault squads with some shooting isn't a shooting list. "at least another one will be close enough to pull a charge." If we're talking about the Space Wolves list you made, two of the squads will be busy with assault squads and/or a Dreadnought, while the last one will be the target of the TSS. "Also, are those "any other" characters in the unit sergeants? Because yes, I generally expect to have one in a unit." Is that Sergeant I5? Because my initial point was the Dreadnought gets to swing before you can kill it. "In close combat?" If you look I said "OR" meaning it was a possibility if they were no longer in close combat. "Because come their next turn, the squad is free to act, if they finish a Dreadnaught in preceding close combat phase-" Which would require them to have not killed it the preceding close combat phase, which would mean they get charged by an assault squad. They cannot kill a Dreadnought and then act unless I charge them with a Dreadnought, which I won't since it's more beneficial to use the Flamestorm Cannon, or if they failed to kill it in your turn before and have just killed it in mine. "That's true, but if you go with the horde-" I'm not, two assault squads is not a horde, but it is easy to move them to counter the enemy troop's movements. "Even if this squad is wiped out, there is another nearby to charge those counter-chargers in turn." Wait, if I was going horde this wouldn't be true. Even in your Grey Slayers list it's not true since one of the squad's busy with one assault squad, another is busy with the other, and the third is being shot at by the TSS while the Medusas shoot whatever they want. "Not really, unless that pieces of terrain are Impassable, and those are rare." Yes really, because differently elevated terrain eats up your movement and a lot of it doesn't just let you leap off the other side without penalty. If you want to cross the board even slower however, then you don't need to change your formation and you can hop up buildings when you come across them. "Why is that? 5 of them pop out enough shots to do the job in two turns." Because you don't bring Heavy Support squads with Autocannons, you bring those on other units. Also even if you did bring full Autocannons on a Heavy Support squad, that's 4 turns of shooting before the Dreadnoughts are dead, let alone Medusa's or other ranged assets. "We're experiencing resurgence thanks to Javelins." I guess that's fine if it's the case in your meta, but it's certainly not in mine. "I don't now a lot of cover that provide its' benefit to one but not the other, barring infantry." Really? Because most walls do that. "As a side note, Dreadnaughts are usually at the front, making hiding behind other units problematic." Good thing I'm not suggesting this. "I tried. My painted Venerable Boxnaught with Inferno Cannon and Chainfist is within hand's reach as I type." Don't just go one, I take two and this is sounding like the Kor Phaeron thing again. "They're not all that useful unless the target squad is bunched up-" Or if the target is behind decent cover, or if the target has FNP, or if the target has an armour value... I like them because you can get good value from them even when they're not shooting their ideal targets. "in my experience, and are usually hidden behind at least 4+ cover. It's also usually hard to shoot them in the side on turn one." Wait, what? Medusa's are always counted as shooting from the centre of the blast marker, you're not usually getting a cover save from that barring specific scenarios like going to ground inside of a crater. Also, Medusa's resolve their shots against vehicle side armour 100% of the time because that's one of the positives of being a Barrage weapon. "Legiones Astartes (Word Bearers) special rule ends with "This choice must always be either a Centurion or a Chaplain Consul"." No it doesn't, it continues on to include Legion Specific Units, the Diabolist, Dark Channelling, Legion Specific Wargear and their unique Rite. "They don't ignore Dark Fury's rules or Allegiance limitations of individual units." Because those are on their unit sheets, being Traitor only is not on the unit sheet of Gal Vorbak. "If all Legion rules are Legiones Astartes (...), then there are no specific units or gear available to any Legions, since it specifies "a number of special rules and abilities available"." That's right, they're only allowed access to what's included in their Legiones Astartes rules, which is why Thousand Sons get Battle-automata despite those not being Thousand Sons, and Word Bearers get Gal Vorbak despite those not being Word Bearers. -- Triacom (talk) 15:39, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Weird you didn't include it among Endurance and Iron Arm It's best against Power Fists, not weapons with AP2 on I 4-5, and we're not talking those, if we're talking Centurions and Consuls. If we're going Praetors, it's Divining Blade vs Divining Blade anyway, at this point Warpspeed is the best option. Smite on a Dark Brethren character does 2.268 unsaved wounds Ah, okay, now I get it. Provided you cast it, it looks good indeed. Even killing two Tactical Marines would earn you its points back Those are 10 points as of the last book. you can still play around it so long as you're smart about it You don't have a lot of Destroyers in your meta, do you? You were talking about the odds of getting unsaved wounds in the initial statement No, I was talking about the odds of not dying after getting a specified amount of unsaved wounds. The original situation talked about the odds of it failing The specific bit was about screwing a model with Empath Bonds over in case it fails. This occurs if you rolled 1 on transfer or got Perils. a hopeless situation is a hopeless situation In that case leaving the unit and charging some vehicle may be the best option. If you claim you're talking about something you didn't write Yes, it's not like you're interpreting what I've written wrong. You claimed you were talking about free Legion boosts when in reality you were talking about paid wargear ...I literally wrote all that in the beginning. "They still can stack up odds in their favour by actually spending those points" What did you think back then about that phrase? Just missed it, didn't you, without bothering to stop and give it a thought? It's another case of moving the goalposts No, it's another case of you not reading what I wrote initially, putting words in my mouth and arguing against them. Blood Angels have neither True Believers nor Cut Them Down Close Combats tend to be decided by combat resolutions, and any actual buffs to combat are better than morale. Sweeping Advances are nice, but don't change things dramatically, since even after regrouping the squad has to waste a turn. Morale buff is great for shooty lists, no questions there, but WB are supposed to be melee. In my example the Praetor challenges because he's more likely to win against whoever accepts than not If you assume the enemy didn't bring Power Fists, the logic is sound. See the part about opponent not being a moron. I was clearly using it as an example for how good they are at boosting shooting units Which says nothing about Unique characters costing a lot more than generic counterparts. Master of Signals have a very comparable price tag to them. No, he doesn't. Master of Signal costs 95 points (+20 for Artificier armor and Power Weapon if you want it), Erebus costs 195, Kor Phaeron 155 and takes up Warlord Trait, Zardu 175. And that's the price you pay if you want to save point You're paying them because RoW is restrictive to begin with. It's a tax you can dodge. Sure, either way he's still not that expensive He's clocking at 200 points now, but yes, at least he'll make anyone charging pay the price. If they're not in the unit, then they're not in the unit It's not 9th edition, the characters are ALWAYS in the unit. How on Earth did you come to the conclusion I suggest you send an HQ model solo?! Once again, you're ignoring the point I won't answer points someone made for me. Kinda silly otherwise. There are units that can do it conditionally better, and their costs soon become comparable Most of them can take a hit or two. I thought you were saying that you were for some reason getting the Command Tank upgrade for the Stormlord since you were claiming the squad I brought was only 10 points cheaper than the Stormlord when in reality it was 65 points cheaper and you were just ignoring the Tank Commander's cost increase for some reason Let's see here... The squad you're describing is 10-man strong TSS, with Artificer Armour for the Sergeant and additional close combat weapons (you mentioned those in mathhammer), 355 points. Praetor is 180 (no invuls, Projector, Burning Lore, Power Weapon). 535 points total. Stormlord, 490 points. Auxilia Tank Commander, 55 points. 545 points total. when the thing is a transport It's a bunker, not Spartan equivalent. You can't charge out of it anyways, and it doesn't want to be anywhere near mass-Melta Bombs squads or Terminators with Chainfists. Hiding in corner shooting everything on the board is exactly what I want it do all game. a decent squad of 8 kills 2.5 every time it rapid-fires at the 2 wound Terminators... and that's before I add in the Praetor's shots...who adds on another wound and change, or 1.89 wounds at full power) So two dead 2-wounds Termies from Stormlord in 60", which is not a dedicated TEQ killer, versus 3 dead 2-wound Termies from a dedicated and fragile TEQ-killer squad of 10 + Praetor in 13"-24", in other words. No they're not, the Praetor can leave and the Stormlord and Commander cannot separate I'm sure a lone Praetor with no invul is capable of great things on his own. And the Sicaran Venator is the first thing I thought of when I thought of the Stormlord, that doesn't mean it isn't a counter Okay? Their battlefield roles can't be more different, but you do you. Are you trying to deploy it tucked in the corner way away from its intended target? Yes?.. Because it has 60" of range?.. I've even seen it deployed behind a Bunker once, to get 3+ cover. I said 60 because it was the amount you used in the example earlier I've never said 2000 points though. The amount of Grey Slayers you've given here isn't that much of a challenge to kill How, exactly? that amount of shooting is not enough to take care of Dreadnoughts, the Plasma squad and the Medusas It'd take care of Dreadnaughts and/or Medusas, even with 1 squad completely destroyed TSS is going to be in close combat from turn 2. By the way, what's the Anvillus carrying? Either you don't have too many experince with Space Wolves or your opponents have been cheating you: it carries said Veterans/Destroyers and HQs, because Warrior's Mettle is cancelled by any HQs but Geigor. Taking two assault squads with some shooting isn't a shooting list Taking 2 assault squad with no shenigans involved is a bold move. two of the squads will be busy with assault squads and/or a Dreadnought, while the last one will be the target of the TSS Which leaves the fourth squad. Is that Sergeant I5? No, but the Priest is. Not that he can destroy a Dreadnaught before it hits, I can't disagree there. They cannot kill a Dreadnought and then act unless I charge them with a Dreadnought No-no, wait, it was about Assault Squad counter-charging. Even in your Grey Slayers list it's not true since one of the squad's busy with one assault squad, another is busy with the other, and the third is being shot at by the TSS while the Medusas shoot whatever they want...which leaves the fourth squad and all the shooting. because differently elevated terrain eats up your movement Ah, no, not many of hills or mountains, and a few that exist are usually taken by FB players. and you can hop up buildings when you come across them You can pass through walls as of actual rulebook. Ruins are just Difficult Terrain. you bring those on other units Like Dreadnaughts or Fire Raptors?.. Also even if you did bring full Autocannons on a Heavy Support squad, that's 4 turns of shooting before the Dreadnoughts are dead 2 hull points off on average for 12 AV in one shooting phase from 5 AC. Because most walls do that. A tall part of Aegis covers more than a quarter of Contemptor. Or did you have another walls in mind? Good thing I'm not suggesting this Good luck with those Flamestorms, in that case. I take two I think I'll just take Cortus, which is more survivavble and poses a threat to enemies that don't actively seek to charge me. if the target has an armour value Yeah, can't argue here. My only issue with Medusas is 10 side and reliance on Nuncios. Medusa's are always counted as shooting from the centre of the blast marker I was talking about Medusas themselves, not their targets. Won't argue with anything you've said there. No it doesn't, it continues on to include Legion Specific Units, the Diabolist, Dark Channelling, Legion Specific Wargear and their unique Rite All of this is not part of Legiones Astartes (Word Bearers) rule, but of Crusade Army List Appendix VIII: The Word Bearers. Because those are on their unit sheets, being Traitor only is not on the unit sheet of Gal Vorbak Yes, it's just a necessity for fielding them as part of using their rules, since you can only use rules presented in that Appendix as part of Traitor faction. which is why Thousand Sons get Battle-automata despite those not being Thousand Sons It has no Legiones Astartes (Thousand Sons) rule, yet somehow included in it, you think? That's an Olympian leap of logic. --Flutist (talk) 21:39, 24 October 2021 (UTC)


"It's best against Power Fists, not weapons with AP2 on I 4-5, and we're not talking those, if we're talking Centurions and Consuls." It's"best" on everything. The only time I wouldn't use it is if Smite was capable of killing the target outright, otherwise I'm suddenly able to gain Instant Death on any boosted power axes from my Assault Squad, and my plasma guns now ignore Apothecaries/Priests of Fenris. Incidentally the Flamestorm Cannon from my Dreadnoughts also cause Instant Death on an enfeebled Marine, which further boosts their damage output (not to mention it cuts down the average distance a Grey Slayers unit can move and charge by 4"-5"). I'm not going to argue which Biomancy power is the "best" since they're all situationally great, but Enfeeble is right up there in my book. "Those are 10 points as of the last book." You're right, my mistake, I did double check before posting but I can't remember what I must've confused them for. Still, my point stands that it's not hard to make those points back. A single Terminator does it, or two casts many Marine troops units. "You don't have a lot of Destroyers in your meta, do you?" Admittedly no, but the times I have faced them I found they don't stand up well to Medusa's or plasma. I will admit they could very well be a major problem if my opponent were to invest heavily in them. "No, I was talking about the odds of not dying after getting a specified amount of unsaved wounds." That's literally the same thing with different words. The odds of not dying after a specified amount of wounds is literally the same as the odds of getting unsaved wounds. "In that case leaving the unit and charging some vehicle may be the best option." Seeing as how you can't stay locked in combat with non-walker vehicles, it would be a long shot you'd likely die after anyway. Still, there's nothing preventing you from charging, resolving that character's attacks then using Empath Bonds in a way that will kill them in the assault their partner is in. "Yes, it's not like you're interpreting what I've written wrong." I can only read what you write. If you write that you were talking about melee legions getting free upgrades but write this before/after you were comparing something like Dark Channelling to Melta Bombs and Power Fists how do you think it looks? "What did you think back then about that phrase? Just missed it, didn't you, without bothering to stop and give it a thought?" I saw it, which is one of the reasons why I called you out when you said you were only talking about Legion upgrades. "Close Combats tend to be decided by combat resolutions" It's real funny to me that you'll complain I'm putting words in your mouth before you immediately do the same to me. I wasn't talking about close combats when I referenced True Believers which is why I used the word "panic" instead of "break". Fantasy terminology I'm aware, but it still bleeds through a bit. This is one case however will I will admit I could be more clear on. That aside, Sweeping Advances are great, both in killing scoring units or getting away, especially if the unit you're fighting has some kind of movement beyond 6". Also even small units can gum up your following shooting phase and depending on who they kamikaze into, it could be very disruptive. "Morale buff is great for shooty lists, no questions there, but WB are supposed to be melee." Here's a genuine question, why? Your three HQ's are fantastic at buffing your shooting units, so why not make shooting focused lists with them? I don't do it personally, but I fail to see why it would be a bad idea, especially since you can still take allied Imperial Army/Mechanicum. Incidentally the Word Bearers are Sworn Brothers with the Imperial Army, so if you wanted to, you could have them giving Preferred Enemy against loyalist Space Marines to their units. I haven't done it yet but this conversation has me thinking about it, after all an Enginseer Auxilia is much cheaper than a plasma squad, their phased plasma-fusils cut through Marines and they fire more shots at a longer range. Add in Preferred Enemy to the mix and I think there could be something there (shame about the Salvo type). "No, he doesn't. Master of Signal costs 95 points (+20 for Artificier armor and Power Weapon if you want it), Erebus costs-" When I wrote "Master of Signals have a very comparable price tag to them." I was not talking about named characters, I was talking about the Consuls you have to take (Chaplain/Diabolist) who are comparable. I wrote this specifically before the point about names characters so I don't even know why you thought I was talking about them, though again I find it funny you are putting words in my mouth and arguing against them. Still, in the future I'll endeavour to be crystal clear. "You're paying them because RoW is restrictive to begin with. It's a tax you can dodge." Sure, and the tax you can dodge by taking a named character like Erebus can save you 90+ points if you're getting support Centurions (or 45+ points for Kor Phaeron/Zardu Layak) which, if you deduct it from their costs, doesn't make them seem like so much after all. "He's clocking at 200 points now, but yes, at least he'll make anyone charging pay the price." Wait, how? A Praetor with a Paragon Blade, Burning Lore and an Aetherkine Projector is 180. Since you still don't seem to like the projector you can ditch it (155) or get him Empath Bonds instead (170). You don't keep buying support characters more gadgets, and on average he'll stop two Marines from melting (saving you 60, so his practical cost, as in the points you'll want to earn with him and his boost, is around 95-120). "It's not 9th edition, the characters are ALWAYS in the unit. How on Earth did you come to the conclusion I suggest you send an HQ model solo?!" I didn't think you were saying that, I thought you were saying put him with tough guys (ie not a TSS) or with cheap squishy guys (ie not a TSS) when he needs to be in the unit to give it his buff. That's the issue here, there isn't a character that can go in that unit that you'd be okay with and I was pointing that out. "Most of them can take a hit or two." If they can they either cost more or deal less damage. "Let's see here... The squad you're describing is 10-man strong TSS, with Artificer Armour for the Sergeant and additional close combat weapons (you mentioned those in mathhammer)" I gave many Mathhammer examples, and you should also note not only did I say "IF" for the extra CCW's (meaning I usually don't get them the weapons) I also stated the Squad had 9 Marines, not 10. You don't run TSS squads at ten Marines because you can't attach a Praetor to them in their Rhino if you do. You also can't attach an Apothecary if you wanted to do that. I usually run them at 7-8 Marines, and in my example I used 9 because we were talking about a huge rather geared Grey Slayer blob with shields and a Priest to make them as survivable as possible. As such, that Plasma Squad is an even 300, with the Praetor being anywhere from 180 (meaning together they're 480, 10 less than the Stormlord which is what I thought you were referring to this whole time) to 155. Even if you got him a Paragon Blade the squad would be 495. Incidentally you don't put Artificer Armour on the TSS Sergeant. It might seem like a good idea, but it's not. The reason why is because while people won't waste AP 2 long ranged weapons on your Assault Squad or Tactical Squad, they absolutely will on a TSS and I have not found a 4+ Look Out Sir to do a good enough job of protecting him. In those cases you either need to be out of line of sight or using cover, at which point the upgrade is useless (not to mention how many 2+ armour enemies have AP 2 at higher than Initiative 1, and the fact he's almost as costly as a Centurion). Incidentally I'll let you know if I stop using TSS's in favour of Enginseer Auxilia's. In this case, even standing the Sergeant up front won't help them deal with the Fusil's AP 3 since I should just be able to kill the 'placing Sergeant up front' strategy with Smite. "It's a bunker, not Spartan equivalent." I didn't say it was, but you're going to be missing out if you can't use it and another squad to lay out a hail of firepower since it's technically open topped. "So two dead 2-wounds Termies from Stormlord in 60", which is not a dedicated TEQ killer, versus 3 dead 2-wound Termies from a dedicated and fragile TEQ-killer squad of 10 + Praetor in 13"-24", in other words." No. The Stormlord kills 2 of those 2-wound Terminators, while the Squad kills 4, while costing 450 vs the Stormlord's 545. I'll assume you just didn't add up the Praetor's kills right since 2.5 casualties+ 1.89 casualties is 4.39 casualties. Also the squad has 8 TSS Marines in it for 8 plasma guns, it does not have ten (if it did then with the Praetor they'd kill 5.67 2-wound Termies, which is nearly three times the casualties caused by the Stormlord). "I'm sure a lone Praetor with no invul is capable of great things on his own." Considering an Aetherkine Projector Praetor can pump out 3.78 AP 2 wounds on MEQ's, he definitely can do a lot of damage if nobody leaves to deal with him, and if he's cover-camping it's not too hard to hide him from guns that can ID him since they need to draw Line of Sight to shoot him. Even without a Projector he puts out 2.268 AP 2 wounds with Smite, or he can be a real pain in the ass with Enfeeble by throwing either out from cover. "Okay? Their battlefield roles can't be more different, but you do you." This was about counters, not battlefield roles. Either way I think the point's been made. "Yes?.. Because it has 60" of range?.. I've even seen it deployed behind a Bunker once, to get 3+ cover." I was talking about the Venator. You can tell because I replied directly to you when you were talking about the Venator, and for some reason you cut out the bit where I wrote: "On what table are you having trouble shooting a fucking massive tank with 36" of range?" If you're trying to say you deployed the Venator then your opponent placed the Stormlord way away from it, then you worded that badly because I asked if you were deploying the Venator far away from the Stormlord and you said yes. "I've never said 2000 points though." Correct, I was the one talking about 2000 points but you kept talking about the Grey Slayer-tide. "How, exactly?" Well that's rather simple, all it takes is a favourable engagement with my Assault Squads (which is definitely in my favour compared to the Grey Slayers) or some half-decent shooting with Medusa's (maybe after shooting your armour, it would depend on the board and objectives) and my TSS. Your anti armour will either be trying to kill my Medusa's or Dreadnoughts so the infantry game would inevitably come down to a slugfest since I'm rather confident I'd be able to keep the TSS alive for a while if you don't try to close the gap. "It'd take care of Dreadnaughts and/or Medusas, even with 1 squad completely destroyed TSS is going to be in close combat from turn 2." It would inflict damage, but getting rid of them? I have serious doubts about that. "Either you don't have too many experince with Space Wolves or your opponents have been cheating you: it carries said Veterans/Destroyers and HQs-" Oh my mistake, all right, that's solid enough. I'm not a fan of that plan, but you do you. "Taking 2 assault squad with no shenigans involved is a bold move." So is putting all that in an Anvillus and relying on AV 11 and AV 12 to kill Strength 10 AP 2 Ordnance guns. Incidentally I wouldn't call having a PE Psyker in the units with Dark Channelling "no shenanigans". "Which leaves the fourth squad." Which can drop down anywhere, and what goes after them is very heavily dependent on what they target after landing. I can't choose something to deal with them when their use is entirely dependent on you, but I'm still rather confident I can deploy in a way that forces the unit to either be in range of a Dreadnought, the TSS (in a Rhino, I don't know what weapons your Veteran squad will be armed with but the Destroyers definitely won't be killing it with ranged attacks so the TSS squad will live for a turn) or charging an Assault squad before they get nuked by something else since I've no doubt the Wolves will win that fight. Regardless, I'm still fairly confident though of course I'm not going to say it's an easy win, I could see myself losing in either the mission played, or depending on the terrain, who goes first, whether or not there's Night Fighting, etc. "No-no, wait, it was about Assault Squad counter-charging." If they're being counter-charged, how are they free to act? "which leaves the fourth squad and all the shooting." Then they'd be shot at by the Medusas. Yes they're going to get a free charge off, they're also going to die pretty much right after. There's a lot there that eats Marines and Characters so you'll have the greatest one-shot-wonder. "Ah, no, not many of hills or mountains, and a few that exist are usually taken by FB players." Leaving aside the fact I'm a Fantasy player before 40k/HH and have that terrain, you don't play with buildings? I'm curious what your board usually looks like, and I mean that genuinely. "You can pass through walls as of actual rulebook. Ruins are just Difficult Terrain." You can pass through it unless solid walls are defined as impassable, although this is going to get down to a hobby group level since what's defined as what is left up to the players. In my group you don't get to walk through solid walls unless there's a door there. "Like Dreadnaughts or Fire Raptors?" Sure, you could also use them on attack bikes or Terminators (the guy I know loves using them on Justaerin). "hull points off on average for 12 AV in one shooting phase from 5 AC." I completely fucked up there and meant to write 2, not 4. In any case that's still two turns of shooting for one Dreadnought, and that's if I have no cover save. "A tall part of Aegis covers more than a quarter of Contemptor. Or did you have another walls in mind?" I do, the Cities of Death broken walls and out of print sandbag emplacements give Dreadnoughts a Cover save while denying it to Contemptors (if you're going to tell me they cover a Contemptor enough then you are the most generous opponent). Even if we were playing with just Aegis-style walls however (I also forget the height of the trench line that GW made but I remember it being barely tall enough to hide a Dreadnought) then that means the regular Dreadnoughts aren't all that much less fragile compared to Contemptors in that environment. "Good luck with those Flamestorms, in that case." Why would you hide Flamestorms behind squads when the point is to make the Grey Slayers declare charges against them? "I think I'll just take Cortus, which is more survivavble and poses a threat to enemies that don't actively seek to charge me." It's up to you, I think I've made my case for them clear enough. "All of this is not part of Legiones Astartes (Word Bearers) rule, but of Crusade Army List Appendix VIII: The Word Bearers." And if you'll look down just slightly you'll see it says LEGIONES ASTARTES (WORD BEARERS). "Yes, it's just a necessity for fielding them as part of using their rules-" No it isn't, because the Alpha Legion can use them without them being used "as presented" in the Word Bearers Legiones Astartes rule. Even if this was correct, the wording is "using the rules presented here [the Word Bearers] may only be part of Traitor faction armies." Alpha Legion are not Word Bearers, and they are not using the rules presented there. "It has no Legiones Astartes (Thousand Sons) rule, yet somehow included in it, you think? That's an Olympian leap of logic." How is it an Olympian leap of logic to point out Legiones have access to units that aren't part of their Space Marine Legion, and which they only gain access to via their special rule? I suspect you meant to attach something to this statement that's missing since it reads like I put it through google translate. -- Triacom (talk) 04:03, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

It's"best" on everything. I was talking about Character duels, if that wasn't clear. Enfeeble is great, I have no objections about it. I found they don't stand up well to Medusa's or plasma They don't, but they're cheap and usually not a prime target. No one bothers with Psyk-out Grenade Launchers yet, thankfully, which makes them manageable. The odds of not dying after a specified amount of wounds is literally the same as the odds of getting unsaved wounds We were talking about Empath Bonds. The more unsaved wounds model gets, the more are the odds those fail it. That was the original statement you're having problems with now. If you write that you were talking about melee legions getting free upgrades but write this before/after you were comparing something like Dark Channelling to Melta Bombs and Power Fists how do you think it looks? Free upgrades as part of their Legiones, and can spent the points for gear. That's what I wrote to begin with. which is one of the reasons why I called you out when you said you were only talking about Legion upgrades So you literally read what I had written and dismissed it, because it didn't aligned with what I meant in your mind. I wasn't talking about close combats when I referenced True Believers And I never told you did, which is why I wrote "Morale buff is great for shooty lists, no questions there, but WB are supposed to be melee". especially if the unit you're fighting has some kind of movement beyond 6" even small units can gum up your following shooting phase By providing 5+ cover? I can leave with that. and depending on who they kamikaze into, it could be very disruptive They can't charge after regrouping. Here's a genuine question, why? Because their rules (Diabolist, Dark Channeling, mandatory Chaplain) and unique units actively push them in close combat. You can play ranged Word Bearers, and they're better than vanilla Legion, but that's just boring and doesn't feel right. you could have them giving Preferred Enemy against loyalist Space Marines to their units All allies except Daemons are Desperate Allies as of Dark Bretheren limitations. I was not talking about named characters, I was talking about the Consuls you have to take (Chaplain/Diabolist) who are comparable And we've come full circle again. Putting melee HQs in shooty units because the Rite is restrective enough to not let you take actual ranged Consuls to combine buffs of those with buffs of the Rite itself. I find it funny you are putting words in my mouth and arguing against them The pot calling the kettle black. At least I have an excuse of English not being my first language! Sure, and the tax you can dodge by taking a named character like Erebus can save you 90+ points if you're getting support Centurions So you have two characters for ranged buffs?.. I really can't see the logic of taking Erebus to save slots and waste them on Centurions. Wait, how? A Praetor with a Paragon Blade, Burning Lore and an Aetherkine Projector is 180 We're giving him a Paragon Blade, obviously, so no Power Fist sergeants one shots him. there isn't a character that can go in that unit Yes, which is exactly the problem of the squad. If they can they either cost more or deal less damage. Less ranged damage, sure, no argument there. It might seem like a good idea, but it's not Well, it works with Havocs I mentioned, but okay. you can't use it and another squad to lay out a hail of firepower since it's technically open topped I absolutely can, it's not like the enemy won't come to me. On top of it, the Enginseer Auxilia you mentioned repairing it can be just nasty, because there is no limit to how many times a model can benefit from Battlesmith in one turn. . I'll assume you just didn't add up the Praetor's kills right since 2.5 casualties+ 1.89 casualties is 4.39 casualties. 3,78 wounds from 10 guys (I'll be charitable here) + 1,89 wounds from Praetor (since his gun is Assault). 5,67 wounds, rounded up, 3 dead 2-wound TEQs. If you get TSS in 12", then sure, double those 3,78 to make 5 dead guys. What remains of the squad is likely to kick your ass in that particular scenario though. if nobody leaves to deal with him And since he's a Praetor, and, quite possibly, your Warlord, the odds of that are not very high. if he's cover-camping So are you driving TSS into the thick of it or are you cover-camping? I was talking about the Venator Then yes, 36" of range is bad, otherwise Las Destroyers were way more popular. but you kept talking about the Grey Slayer-tide You wanted Slayer-tide, you get the Slayer-tide. 2000 points roster is an entry level anyway. Don't nitpick. which is definitely in my favour compared to the Grey Slayers Why? They have Counter-attack, more Power Weapons and Power Fists. Some shields thrown in as well. maybe after shooting your armour That implies more than one round of shooting. I'm rather confident I'd be able to keep the TSS alive for a while if you don't try to close the gap Wolves are at your throat come turn 2, that's the problem. It would inflict damage, but getting rid of them? I have serious doubts about that. That's even worse, then. I'm not a fan of that plan Anvilus Drop Pods are some of the best transports in the game. So is putting all that in an Anvillus Not really, since it is Flyer in hover, has 4+ Jink, and even if it is Wrecked, occupants can charge in the following turn. They also don't have to exit the pod on the turn it arrives. relying on AV 11 and AV 12 to kill Strength 10 AP 2 Ordnance guns Numerous and cheap AV11 and AV12, with initial volley of each said AV11 stripping 3 hull points of AV12. Incidentally I wouldn't call having a PE Psyker in the units with Dark Channelling "no shenanigans" Fair enough, but you do have Apothecaries, right? Which can drop down anywhere Not really, because Drop Pod Assault and Flat Out Move are a thing. If they're being counter-charged, how are they free to act? You just wrote the bit about Dreadnaught.Yes they're going to get a free charge off, they're also going to die pretty much right after Yeap, if one can save anything to shoot that squad with. There's a lot there that eats Marines and Characters so you'll have the greatest one-shot-wonder Characters are free to join other squads in vicinity, exactly to avoid putting all the eggs in one basket. That's also why Geigor is kinda important there. you don't play with buildings? Not really, not many clubs have those, as I've said. It's mostly ruins or forests. There is an occasional rock made of styrofoam, but those tend to look, er, not bad, but mediocre. In my group you don't get to walk through solid walls unless there's a door there Well, those are homerules, even if logical ones. use them on attack bikes or Terminators (the guy I know loves using them on Justaerin) Never seen a HH attack bike by with own eyes. Also don't think Terminators have to many chances to fire potshots at Dreadnaughts, charging restrictions and all that. the Cities of Death broken walls As in 4th ed Cities of Death? I also forget the height of the trench line that GW made but I remember it being barely tall enough to hide a Dreadnought Wall of Martyrs? Yeah, it isn't high enough, but nobody fields those. Why would you hide Flamestorms behind squads when the point is to make the Grey Slayers declare charges against them? Exactly my point. And if you'll look down just slightly you'll see it says LEGIONES ASTARTES (WORD BEARERS). And if you look a little lower, it says LEGION SPECIFIC UNITS in the same font that is smaller than Crusade Army List Appendix, almost as if those are paragraphs. and they are not using the rules presented there They are using rules from Crusade Army List Appendix VIII: The Word Bearers. How is it an Olympian leap of logic to point out Legiones have access to units that aren't part of their Space Marine Legion How can a model benefit from a rule it doesn't have, if access to Thousand Sons Battle-automata is restricted beyond a Legiones Astartes rule, in your opinion? Are Legion specific units "a special rule or ability"? —Flutist (talk) 04:24, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

"I was talking about Character duels, if that wasn't clear." It wasn't, so thanks for clearing that up. "They don't, but they're cheap and usually not a prime target." They're cheap? I'm guessing you use the playtest rules since their price has been an issue right from the beginning. Yeah the ones in the red book aren't expensive compared to something like Terminators, but I'd hesitate to call them cheap, especially since they suck unless you start taking more upgrades, and even then at their best they don't do the job as well as a TSS in my opinion (unless you're getting them for a very specific anti-Psyker use). "We were talking about Empath Bonds. The more unsaved wounds model gets, the more are the odds those fail it. That was the original statement you're having problems with now." Could you re-write that, because it almost looks like you're saying you're more likely to fail an Empath Bonds roll with the more unsaved wounds you take and that is not the case, so I'm sure you mean something else. "Free upgrades as part of their Legiones, and can spent the points for gear. That's what I wrote to begin with." No it isn't, at no instance in your original point did you write anything along the lines of 'and can spent the points for gear.' When I pointed out most legions need to pay for their legion bonuses in one way or another, you suddenly swapped from talking about legion gear to generic wargear anyone can get, then followed that by claiming you were talking about spending points effectively when we were discussing legion upgrades. "So you literally read what I had written and dismissed it, because it didn't aligned with what I meant in your mind." No, you literally did not write that in your original point, and when I talked about legion specific upgrades you went off about generic upgrades. "And I never told you did, which is why I wrote: "Morale buff is great for shooty lists, no questions there, but WB are supposed to be melee"." Are you seriously trying to tell me you wrote: "Close Combats tend to be decided by combat resolutions, and any actual buffs to combat are better than morale" For no reason then? Because if you weren't talking about True Believers in close combat for some reason, why did you write this? Funny how you omit that you wrote that when you quote yourself. "By providing 5+ cover? I can leave with that." Funny how you belittle me because I "read what I had written and dismissed it, because it didn't aligned with what I meant in your mind." But then you immediately do the same thing to me. If a unit charges and survives close combat, then the unit they charged cannot shoot in its controlling player's turn. That's what I was referring to. "They can't charge after regrouping." Where did I say they'd charge immediately after regrouping? I said if you leave them alone they can be very disruptive depending on who they charge into, nothing about that says they regroup and then immediately charge. "Because their rules (Diabolist, Dark Channeling, mandatory Chaplain) and unique units actively push them in close combat. You can play ranged Word Bearers, and they're better than vanilla Legion, but that's just boring and doesn't feel right." The rules themselves encourage close combat, but Dark Brethren does not. Dark Brethren allows you to buff your shooting more than practically every other legion in the game (even on just a bolter squad, they cause more damage with their bolters than Imperial Fists do) and you do not need to include their unique units. Hell, the list I made recently for 2000 points doesn't have any unique units in it (unless you want to count the Diabolist) and "doesn't feel right" isn't a good justification for saying they can't or shouldn't be doing something. "All allies except Daemons are Desperate Allies as of Dark Bretheren limitations." Whoops my mistake, you're right there, although I'm not taking off Imperial Army allies from a possible consideration since they can still get PE thanks to Cult Horde and I think there might still be good use in the Enginseer Auxilia. "And we've come full circle again. Putting melee HQs in shooty units because the Rite is restrective enough to not let you take actual ranged Consuls to combine buffs of those with buffs of the Rite itself." As I said before, if they buff ranged units more than dedicated support units then they are no longer just melee HQ's. "So you have two characters for ranged buffs?.. I really can't see the logic of taking Erebus to save slots and waste them on Centurions." It was an example, and no, you don't have two characters for ranged buffs, you have 3 since all of your HQ's are better at buffing ranged units than any model that's actually meant to buff ranged units. "We're giving him a Paragon Blade, obviously, so no Power Fist sergeants one shots him." You didn't explain how he's 200+ points, I just told you he's 180. If you're claiming he's 200 points or higher then I want to know how. "Yes, which is exactly the problem of the squad." Thank you for finally saying yes, we finally got here and I'd go off on this, but as you just said English isn't your first language I'll assume you initially misread what I wrote. Anyway, that's a problem for the squad, for you. It's not a problem for the squad, for me. You don't like how many points are invested in a glass cannon because it's a glass cannon but that comes down to personal preference since they do hit a niche that nothing else in the list can tackle quite as well as they can. "3,78 wounds from 10 guys (I'll be charitable here) + 1,89 wounds from Praetor (since his gun is Assault). 5,67 wounds, rounded up, 3 dead 2-wound TEQs. If you get TSS in 12", then sure, double those 3,78 to make 5 dead guys. What remains of the squad is likely to kick your ass in that particular scenario though." That depends on which Terminators they are, where they are and what's between me and them. If it's a large squad then absolutely, however after Overwatch, if it's a 10-man squad like in your example, 7.5 of those 2-wound terminators are dead and in combat, that goes up to 8.5 on the first round. Now thankfully there are not a lot of 2-wound terminators, so let's just go over them real quick.

I'll make this a collapsible section:

The Red Butchers would absolutely win the ensuing fight, although they'd lose 7 or 8 models across the entire affair, and though they'd win the fight, they'd be unable to catch the Praetor and some Marines when they ran away. Now the Red Butchers cost 275 points base, and 45 for every extra one. A full squad is a flat 500, and losing 7-8 of the 10 would be about 350-400 points in value, which is more than the support squad. All things considered that's not exactly a bad trade, especially if you're able to save the Praetor and remaining Marines. If there is a combat character with The Red Butchers then it's possible everyone except the Praetor could die (or even including him depending on who it is) but then you'd still be occupying a squad that costs way more than the TSS squad with the Praetor, and that squad would mostly be dead and not have made its points back yet. Deathshroud are next up, and they would not win that fight... at least not with any sort of expediency. They're down 8 models before they're even able to swing, and even though they'll technically cause more wounds (I'm assuming they get to take advantage of Reaping Blow) they'll all be dead in 3 combat rounds (dying before they can swing) while the vast majority of the TSS will be alive (sadly the Sergeant will likely be sacrificed in round 1, and the Preator will likely take 1.666 wounds from a challenge in round 2). Once again you can say that there could be a combat character with the Deathshroud, but in that case my point stands from the Red Butchers, you'd be occupying a squad way pricier than you, and since we're assuming they have Cataphractii armour they can't catch you when they kill enough Marines causing you to run away. Sekhmet Terminators are fun in that they actually perform worse than the Deathshroud, although that is subject to change based on what psychic power they get. Without a combat power however, they also lose. Justaerin on the other hand do win the fight, but what I said about the Red Butchers can be said about them. They don't cause enough damage to break you immediately however (at least it's not likely to) so if there's assistance nearby (like my Assault Squads) you can definitely come to the rescue of the TSS now that they've done their job since you'd only need to kill 2 Justaerin, and any weapon they have that can hurt the Praetor is unwieldy (so you'll end up killing all but 1 before the unwieldy weapons can swing). Firedrakes definitely win the fight assuming they have their storm shield, however all the calculations have been done against a 4+ Invulnerable Save rather than a 3+ so they hold up a lot better than most to practically everything (although they're also significantly more expensive than most of the other 2-wound Terminators once you start buying them more gear).

Now that's it for the 2-wound Terminators, and considering how the 2-wound Terminators are also capable of wrecking the Stormlord (especially since they can be given Power Fists/Chainfists/Thunder Hammers/Melta Bombs depending on who they are) I'll take the TSS over the Stormlord for killing them since I'll have more of them dead before they get me, I'd be able to kill the entire squad (barring Firedrakes) if I had one round of long-ranged shooting (I'm assuming they'll be in a transport which is why this isn't included) and there's always the very real possibility I get to regroup and either save the unit, or cause some more damage before they die. "And since he's a Praetor, and, quite possibly, your Warlord, the odds of that are not very high." I'm not assuming they'll leave him alone, my point is that my enemy has to send something to deal with him. I'm not imagining he'll be ignored, I'm banking on the fact that he won't be which will help me predict what my opponent will do so I can use that to my advantage. "So are you driving TSS into the thick of it or are you cover-camping?" I think you need to re-read this, because I was talking about the late game when/if most of the TSS is dead. My point was that at that time you can make a Praetor hard to kill while also putting out a lot of damage by moving him to cover. By the way, I never said I was deploying the TSS 'into the thick of it' ever. I originally said you have them get out of the Rhino within 24" of their target, and that is in no way 'into the thick' of things. Everything else I've written on them has always been with the assumption they're a target that your opponent has to deal with, and since we've been talking about assault lists, I've been focusing on how they do against assault units. I've never said you roll them up and drop them out within 12" of their target to unload within rapid-fire range because that is not a good idea, and I also never said to always keep them in cover because you cannot guarantee that will be an option on the board you play on. "Then yes, 36" of range is bad, otherwise Las Destroyers were way more popular." 36" is by no means great, but how exactly is it bad enough you're somehow out of range of a Stormlord? If that happens, then I'm sorry, but that's on your deployment. "You wanted Slayer-tide, you get the Slayer-tide. 2000 points roster is an entry level anyway. Don't nitpick." You promised 60 and delivered 45 (or maybe 40) but whatever. "Why? They have Counter-attack, more Power Weapons and Power Fists. Some shields thrown in as well." Because the Assault Marines are going to have Zealot/Preferred Enemy, or Zealot and Preferred Enemy, or +1 Strength with Zealot and Preferred Enemy, and there's also characters in the units geared for combat helping them out. They should win that combat even if I don't get the best Dark Channelling rolls. Also keep in mind 2.6 of the Shielded Grey Slayers would die (even with the Apothecary) due to Smite (unless the character has a different Biomancy power that would skew it even more in my favour) and the Bolt Pistols before combat starts. "That implies more than one round of shooting." Considering how you are very unlikely to kill Medusas, the TSS and the Dreadnoughts all in one round, yes. "Wolves are at your throat come turn 2, that's the problem." Good, that's where the Dreadnoughts with Flamestorm Cannons come in handy. "That's even worse, then." Worse for a turn maybe, not for much more. "Anvilus Drop Pods are some of the best transports in the game." I should have been clearer, I'm not saying it's bad, I'm saying that I personally don't like them. I've nothing against them on a tactical level, I just personally dislike the Anvillus. "Not really, since it is Flyer in hover, has 4+ Jink, and even if it is Wrecked, occupants can charge in the following turn." It's more the lack of support offered to the rest of the board, and the fact Deathstars can die to things like Medusas, but that's true regardless of the Deathstar so it's not a problem specific to your list. "and cheap AV11 and AV12, with initial volley of each said AV11 stripping 3 hull points of AV12." Yeah, but they need to use that on the Dreadnoughts if you don't want roasted wolves charging the wrong targets. "Fair enough, but you do have Apothecaries, right?" I do. "Not really, because Drop Pod Assault and Flat Out Move are a thing." I think you misread what I wrote, because I'm not sure what you meant by this. Unless there's some pretty big terrain pieces we're playing with, you should be able to get pretty much anywhere you want when you land (and probably charge) unless you're incredibly unlucky with your deep-strike roll. "You just wrote the bit about Dreadnaught." Let's look at what I wrote: "Which would require them to have not killed it the preceding close combat phase, which would mean they get charged by an assault squad." The 'it' in that sentence is "a Dreadnought." You brought up the Assault Squad counter-charging for some reason, but they can't counter-charge anything unless the Grey Slayers are locked in combat, and in this case that would be with a Dreadnought. I've been talking this entire conversation about counter-charging the Grey Slayers if they're locked in combat with the Dreadnought (if they somehow didn't kill it before this point) since if they're not locked in combat, it wouldn't be counter-charging them, it would just be charging them. "Yeap, if one can save anything to shoot that squad with." You're going to have to pick your targets since there won't be enough to shoot everything. "Characters are free to join other squads in vicinity, exactly to avoid putting all the eggs in one basket. That's also why Geigor is kinda important there." Now I'm curious how you intend to use them, since I thought you'd be using them to kill something on Turn 1 but it seems like you want to use them around the Grey Slayers? If it's what you want, then that's fine, but I honestly think I'd have more of a chance of winning if that's what you intended to do with them. "Not really, not many clubs have those, as I've said. It's mostly ruins or forests. There is an occasional rock made of styrofoam, but those tend to look, er, not bad, but mediocre." That's unfortunate, playing with a mostly flat table with just forests sounds like it would get kind of stale after a bit. Personally the buildings are some of my favourite parts of the hobby, enough so that I spent way more than I should've on the Cities of Death buildings before GW pulled them (and then on Ebay after). This might also explain a lot with our differences, since it sounds like it's a lot easier to draw Line of Sight on whatever you want on the boards you play on compared to the boards I play on. "Well, those are homerules, even if logical ones." No, the rulebook says before you start a game to define what terrain is what, and we always define solid walls with no doors as impassable. "Never seen a HH attack bike by with own eyes. Also don't think Terminators have to many chances to fire potshots at Dreadnaughts, charging restrictions and all that." That's probably because you have to convert it. Incidentally you don't use the Reaper Autocannon on the Terminators to kill Dreadnoughts normally (though it's fine at weakening them), you use it to pop Rhinos so that you can charge the squad that comes out, since otherwise your charge is kind of wasted on a Rhino. If there's no Rhinos around however, you aren't exactly losing anything by using it on Dreadnoughts. "As in 4th ed Cities of Death?" I legitimately forget when they initially rolled out the buildings, I think it was about 5th edition for the buildings, but if could've been 4th edition. "Wall of Martyrs? Yeah, it isn't high enough, but nobody fields those." I'd recommend them, they're fun and after our last back and forth I found out they're surprisingly cheap on Ebay. "Exactly my point." Good, I'm glad we both agree you wouldn't be using the Dreadnoughts in that manner. "And if you look a little lower, it says LEGION SPECIFIC UNITS in the same font that is smaller than Crusade Army List Appendix, almost as if those are paragraphs." Almost as if those are the "additional special rules and abilities specific to their 'named' Legion" like the AoD rulebook describes. By the way, if you're insisting these are entirely separate, then that still means the Alpha Legion can field Gal Vorbak as it would mean the condition for the Word Bearers being Traitors is not tied to the Legiones Astartes rule or Legion Specific Units rule, it would be a separate rule affecting the Word Bearers specifically, and which the Alpha Legion would be exempt from since they are not Word Bearers. "They are using rules from Crusade Army List Appendix VIII: The Word Bearers." No they literally are not. They are using a unit sheet, and none of the rules they are using can be found in (or are from) pages 92 or 93. "How can a model benefit from a rule it doesn't have-" Well first of all this is my point to you, since Gal Vorbak on their own do not have a rule forcing them to be Traitor only since that is Word Bearers specific, and the Alpha Legion are not Word Bearers, but secondly: "if access to Thousand Sons Battle-automata is restricted beyond a Legiones Astartes rule, in your opinion?" It's not restricted beyond a Legiones Astartes rule, Legion Specific Units is inside of it, but even if it was outside the Legiones Astartes rule, it's not my opinion that the Legiones Astartes are allowed non-Legiones Astartes units based on what the Legion Specific Units bit states they can have. "Are Legion specific units "a special rule or ability"?" Yes, just like how being able to take Iron Warriors inside of a Salamanders Detachment is also a special rule/ability, and the Alpha Legion being able to include a Legion Specific unit "normally allowed only to another Space Marine Legion" is a special rule/ability. -- Triacom (talk) 07:56, 28 October 2021 (UTC)